Saddam To Be Hanged in 48 Hours.

[Aries 1B]

Here's the story. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16384738/)

Whom on these boards will wail and gnash their teeth at the impending death of this wretched specimen of homo sapiens?

I will not.

Will you?

V/R,

Aries 1B

PS: Happy Eid ul-Adha to the Iraqi People.

[SpamSandwich]

I'm certainly no pro-Saddamist, but the whole trial certainly smelled funny, plus why wasn't he charged with crimes related to invading Kuwait?

It's pretty clear his trial was rushed and now he's being thrown to the mob. I'm for trying Saddam, but in a clear, legal way, not the Iraqi kangaroo court we've seen.

[Aries 1B]

I'm certainly no pro-Saddamist, but the whole trial certainly smelled funny, plus why wasn't he charged with crimes related to invading Kuwait?

It's pretty clear his trial was rushed and now he's being thrown to the mob. I'm for trying Saddam, but in a clear, legal way, not the Iraqi kangaroo court we've seen.

Saddam is an Iraqi, his crimes were against the Iraqis, it's only just that he be tried by the Iraqis.

Hope he enjoys Hell.

The SouthPark Movie comes to life....
"Heyyyy, Satan!"

V/R,

Aries 1B

[BR]

I will. The death penalty is barbaric for anyone.

[SpamSandwich]

I can imagine there are plenty of people seeking Saddam's blood right now, and they will have it, but it certainly does nothing to elevate the Iraqi people's condition right now, and it won't get the electricity flowing any quicker.

[hardeeharhar]

Before I can agree with BR, I need to have a better intellectual construction for why the death penalty is implicitly wrong. My view point depend upon the fact that in most cases prosecuted in the US (and elsewhere) the rates of people put to death mistakenly are beyond the pail (which I set at none since the state should not be responsible for ending ANY innocent people's lives). There are some cases, however, that this intellectual motivation for my dislike of the death penalty where it is well within reason that the person actually committed the crime -- say with a video tape of the individual killing someone, or in the case of Saddam a pile of evidence waist deep.

What I am looking for is a sort of intellectual segue into an idea that the reason Saddam ordered those people murdered is partially due to his belief that that was a legitimate act... Or perhaps something a little more cunning, like societal responsibility for the acts of individuals -- most murderers don't get there alone...

Anyone? BR?

[franksargent]

:smokey:

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Are you ready for some hanging?

:smokey:

[audiopollution]

beyond the pail

How far beyond depends entirely on how hard he kicks the bucket.

:D

[franksargent]

:smokey:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/stm58/saddamgeico.jpg

:smokey:

[SpcMs]

I will.

Not for the sucker himself, but for the principle. And for the f*cked up chain of prior events the proves the cure can be worse than the disease. And espacially because some people will actually feel good about all this.

[Mac on a Mac]

I have no sympathy for him, but I don't see any good coming from this. His hanging will be another black mark on the new Iraq.

[SpcMs]

Saddam is an Iraqi, his crimes were against the Iraqis, it's only just that he be tried by the Iraqis.

As if. www.foxnews.com
Saddam Hussein remained in U.S. custody as of Friday morning ahead of his pending execution

[mydo]

Iraq will explode after this.

[jimmac]

I have no sympathy for him, but I don't see any good coming from this. His hanging will be another black mark on the new Iraq.


Now there's a realistic attitude! I'm sure Bush will crow about this but what has it got us?

Did we get the man behind 911? Certainly not. If it was Bin Lauden I could understand crowing. But it's kind of like a stand in. Or like Bush's personal vendetta ( " They tried to kill my daddy " ).

[franksargent]

As if. www.foxnews.com
Saddam Hussein remained in U.S. custody as of Friday morning ahead of his pending execution

:smokey:

Yeah, I don't get it, I mean, like the Iraqi police are just so honest, so trustworthy, so above reproach, they would never take a bribe to set him free, they would never kill him out of spite, because we all know that they are just so civil, so honest, ...

:smokey:

[BR]

Before I can agree with BR, I need to have a better intellectual construction for why the death penalty is implicitly wrong. My view point depend upon the fact that in most cases prosecuted in the US (and elsewhere) the rates of people put to death mistakenly are beyond the pail (which I set at none since the state should not be responsible for ending ANY innocent people's lives). There are some cases, however, that this intellectual motivation for my dislike of the death penalty where it is well within reason that the person actually committed the crime -- say with a video tape of the individual killing someone, or in the case of Saddam a pile of evidence waist deep.

What I am looking for is a sort of intellectual segue into an idea that the reason Saddam ordered those people murdered is partially due to his belief that that was a legitimate act... Or perhaps something a little more cunning, like societal responsibility for the acts of individuals -- most murderers don't get there alone...

Anyone? BR?

The death penalty isn't about justice. It's about vengeance. That's the problem. If you lock him away in some facility somewhere for the rest of his life he can't harm others again either.

[sammi jo]

When will those who enabled and financed Saddam's crimes, and those who were accessory (before and after the fact) to Saddam's crimes, get charged with similar crimes?

When will we see extraditions, so the accused parties will face Iraqi courts?

**

Re. the death penalty, or state sanctioned murder....
The BushCorp authorized invasion of Iraq is the direct cause of over half a million people being murdered in some way or another. BushCorp is responsible for bringing about genocide, based on lies. There has been too many deaths of innocents to be concerned about mourning the questionable death of one of our old allies.

[Mac on a Mac]

Now there's a realistic attitude! I'm sure Bush will crow about this but what has it got us?

Did we get the man behind 911? Certainly not. If it was Bin Lauden I could understand crowing. But it's kind of like a stand in. Or like Bush's personal vendetta ( " They tried to kill my daddy " ).


You bet he will crow about it, but it means nothing. This will be hailed as another milestone in the war on evil, but will be as worthless as each before it. We are down to measuring victory by the body count rather than conditions in Iraq. As long as we kill more of them than they do of us, progress is being made.

[ronaldo]

When will those who enabled and financed Saddam's crimes, and those who were accessory (before and after the fact) to Saddam's crimes, get charged with similar crimes?

When will we see extraditions, so the accused parties will face Iraqi courts?

**

Re. the death penalty, or state sanctioned murder....
The BushCorp authorized invasion of Iraq is the direct cause of over half a million people being murdered in some way or another. BushCorp is responsible for bringing about genocide, based on lies. There has been too many deaths of innocents to be concerned about mourning the questionable death of one of our old allies.

You don't think that will ever happen do you?

[sammi jo]

You don't think that will ever happen do you?

I have no idea! I hope not, of course. But in these days of "heavy manners", now that habeas corpus is quaint item from the past, and the administration can permanently remove anyone from society by arbitrarily accusing them of being an "enemy combatant", without a trial by their peers, access to legal counsel... etc etc. ... who knows?

You don't have to be a "terrorist". All it takes now, is to "wear the wrong colors"..... and you might be accused of being one.

Who really knows?

[SDW2001]

:smokey:

Gallows Tailgate Party Checklist

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Baggo Game, Frisbee, Rope (for making party nooses), Cards etc.
Charcoal
Wood Chips (hickory, mesquite or other)
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Tongs
Food (don't bother going without food!)
Condiments (hot sauce, mustard, ketchup, mayo etc.)
Salt & Pepper
Buns/Bread
Plates, spoons, forks, knives
Bottle Opener/Corkscrew
Napkins/Paper Towels
Chairs
Camping table or Card table
Cooler
Ice
Oven mitts
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Blender
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Gallon of Water (to put out the hot coals after you dump 'em)
Pop Up Shelter
Container(s) for any left over food
Victory cigar
HDV camcorder for subsequent YouTube broadcast

Are you ready for some hanging?

:smokey:



You should be hanged for that post.

[jimmac]

You should be hanged for that post.

That's hung!;)

[Aurora]

Most likely claims to be a christian too.:no: The Killing of Saddam is a great way to get this Civil War in Iraq going for real. Bush the "Christian" still never caught the real guy who did 911. Bush had a big opportunity here to help mend Iraq but like everything else he is involved with he didnt get it. Get ready for some real violence in Iraq after Saddam is Hung and Bush will be clueless and dumbfounded once again. Then he will point to Iraq's mess and say see we need more troops in Iraq. Stay the course though the rudder is broken.

Leadership isnt something we have seen from Bush on 911,Iraq, war on terror, containing our own Border,Ports, etc. Leadership is a distant dream for him but if he repeats the word 1 millions times perhaps the neocons will buy it. Real "leaders" dont have to talk about leadership. I have seen better leadership at Burger King.

[Chris Cuilla]

That's hung!;)

Either one is right.

[@_@ Artman]

http://www.insidepulse.com/columnImages/image10440.jpg

Hey, Bush! You know what you are? Just the greatest son-of-a-b-:smokey:

[SpamSandwich]

Hey, Ireland! Where's the widget for this event? :p

[max_naylor]

Either one is right.

Erm, actually no. ‘Hanged’ is correct in respect to capital punishment, ‘hung’ is the correct form for all other uses.

[icfireball]

I think Saddam should be forced to actually make himself useful. Like the world's little bitch. United Nations need some clerical work? Saddam can alphabetized mailing address with millions of recipients by hand.

[franksargent]

:smokey:

Saddam's Hang Time (http://www.slate.com/id/2153186/)

:smokey:

[Frank777]

I will. The death penalty is barbaric for anyone.


As a Christian, I recognize that God does allow the State to practice Capital Punishment for murderous crimes, which by definition are an assault on the image of God.

However, just because things are permissible, does not mean they are helpful (I Cor. 6:12).

Our society has developed systems and resources that allow the worst offenders to be kept from hurting the public while offering a chance of rehabilitation to the others.

Vengeance should be left to the Lord.

[jimmac]

Either one is right.

What do you know you're actually right about something!:p

According to Webster's 9th both can be used.

So let the useless hanging of Saddam continue!

[jimmac]

Erm, actually no. ‘Hanged’ is correct in respect to capital punishment, ‘hung’ is the correct form for all other uses.


Hung ( it surprised me ) is less formal. You're right ( sorry Chris but it seems SDW was right all along )!

Let the useless hanging continue!

[franksargent]

:smokey:

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u/U/saddam_hang.gif

:smokey:

[BR]

As a Christian, I recognize that God does allow the State to practice Capital Punishment for murderous crimes, which by definition are an assault on the image of God.

However, just because things are permissible, does not mean they are helpful (I Cor. 6:12).

Our society has developed systems and resources that allow the worst offenders to be kept from hurting the public while offering a chance of rehabilitation to the others.

Vengeance should be left to the Lord.

For once, and for two entirely different reasons, we agree on something. When that happens you KNOW it must be right.

[OBJRA10]

10:15PM EST

Saddam Hussein has been executed

[hardeeharhar]

Perhaps hell is Iraq tomorrow...

[Bacillus]

The US could learn a lot from Iraqi jurisprudence. Its unconscionable that our system routinely delays justice for the scumb buckets on death row. One appeal and then off to the death chamber...oh and rot in Hell. Its too bad that Florida did away with Old Sparky, and went with the pansy lethal injection.:mad:

Back on Saddam – I hope the noose was done wrong and he chocked in extreme agony.

[sammi jo]

Many officials within the Bush Administration will be heaving sighs of relief, including ex Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and others. Saddam Hussein, if he had been tried for the illegal invasion of Kuwait (amongst other crimes) could have caused a huge amount of trouble for numerous US and European officials and corporate executives, by calling witnesses pertaining to the sales of chemical and biological weapons throughout the 1980s, in its war against Iran.

He might also have called into evidence of the Bush Sr. administration's complicity in the brutal suppression of the anti-Saddam revolt shortly after the conclusion of the Gulf War.

Finally, it could have also brought into public light illicit manipulations of international oil prices by Kuwait and other OPEC nations, which forced the then bankrupt Iraq to sell oil at a loss, leaving Hussein with no choice but to take military action, on the US assurance that there would no repercussions as a result of taking such actions.

It's hardly a wonder that Saddam was tried specifically for a rather obscure event for which there was no easy connection with figures of current international standing, rather than the numerous, far more visible atrocities, with which (Saddam) was linked.

[hardeeharhar]

The US could learn a lot from Iraqi jurisprudence. Its unconscionable that our system routinely delays justice for the scumb buckets on death row. One appeal and then off to the death chamber...oh and rot in Hell. Its too bad that Florida did away with Old Sparky, and went with the pansy lethal injection.:mad:

Back on Saddam – I hope the noose was done wrong and he chocked in extreme agony.

Even if many are innocent?

Do you honestly believe it is ok for the state to execute even one innocent person?

Just answer yes or no -- I don't want a discussion.

[Bacillus]

I will. The death penalty is barbaric for anyone.

So by your logic – someone can kidnap a 9 your old girl (Jessica Lunsford), rape her multiple times, and then kill her by suffocation …and we should not demand vengeance?!?

Well, we must agree to disagree – any monster that would pleasure himself multiple times with a 9 year old girl and then slowly bleed the life from her MUST DIE.

I’m saddened you would rather give them a life long time out with free medical care instead. Personally, I’ll cheer when the bastard, or any other persons that takes anothers life, is put to death.

[BR]

So by your logic – someone can kidnap a 9 your old girl (Jessica Lunsford), rape her multiple times, and then kill her by suffocation …and we should not demand vengeance?!?

Well, we must agree to disagree – any monster that would pleasure himself multiple times with a 9 year old girl and then slowly bleed the life from her MUST DIE.

I’m saddened you would rather give them a life long time out with free medical care instead. Personally, I’ll cheer when the bastard, or any other persons that takes anothers life, is put to death.

Vengeance doesn't bring that girl back or undo the pain he caused. Vengeance isn't for the victim. Vengeance is to satisfy your own bloodlust and your own anger and nothing more. If you can lock the perpetrator up so he can never cause that kind of pain again, that is enough to protect society.

I find you to be a sick bastard, quite frankly.

[SDW2001]

Most likely claims to be a christian too.:no: The Killing of Saddam is a great way to get this Civil War in Iraq going for real. Bush the "Christian" still never caught the real guy who did 911. Bush had a big opportunity here to help mend Iraq but like everything else he is involved with he didnt get it. Get ready for some real violence in Iraq after Saddam is Hung and Bush will be clueless and dumbfounded once again. Then he will point to Iraq's mess and say see we need more troops in Iraq. Stay the course though the rudder is broken.

Leadership isnt something we have seen from Bush on 911,Iraq, war on terror, containing our own Border,Ports, etc. Leadership is a distant dream for him but if he repeats the word 1 millions times perhaps the neocons will buy it. Real "leaders" dont have to talk about leadership. I have seen better leadership at Burger King.

It's as if you just cut and paste your previous posts. Do you ever have anything to say that isn't an hysterical, anti-Bush rant?

[Frank777]

Asking for vengeance and justice are two different things, Bacillus.

On another note, every report I've seen so far has raised the idea of Iraqis getting some sort of psychological relief and closure from this event.

Closure I get - Saddam can't hurt anyone else - but I think any relief they feel will be relatively brief, and largely unsatisfying.

Death simply doesn't have the power to heal those kinds of wounds.

[BR]

Asking for vengeance and justice are two different things, Bacillus.

On another note, every report I've seen so far has raised the idea of Iraqis getting some sort of psychological relief and closure from this event.

Closure I get - Saddam can't hurt anyone else - but I think any relief they feel will be relatively brief, and largely unsatisfying.

Death simply doesn't have the power to heal those kinds of wounds.

.QFT.

[franksargent]

So by your logic – someone can kidnap a 9 your old girl (Jessica Lunsford), rape her multiple times, and then kill her by suffocation …and we should not demand vengeance?!?

Well, we must agree to disagree – any monster that would pleasure himself multiple times with a 9 year old girl and then slowly bleed the life from her MUST DIE.

I’m saddened you would rather give them a life long time out with free medical care instead. Personally, I’ll cheer when the bastard, or any other persons that takes anothers life, is put to death.

:smokey:

No I say let live under the following conditions;

1) Sensory deprevation (permanently remove their 5 senses (sight, taste, hearing, touch, and smell)).
2) Cut out tongue (no speech).
3) Cut off arms, legs, and sex organs.
4) Set them "free," so that the bleeding hearts can care for them.

Works for me!

:smokey:

[Bacillus]

Vengeance doesn't bring that girl back or undo the pain he caused. Vengeance isn't for the victim. Vengeance is to satisfy your own bloodlust and your own anger and nothing more. If you can lock the perpetrator up so he can never cause that kind of pain again, that is enough to protect society.

I find you to be a sick bastard, quite frankly.

I just love the ad hominem attack - nice…real nice.

Back to the example I gave – what punishment if fitting a monster that kidnaps a 9 year old child, rapes her multiple times and then suffocates her? Crimes like this demand no less than death; not a life long stint in a nice climate controlled cell.


I put to everyone – think about this specific example I have mentioned. The sheer fear of being kidnapped, sexually assaulted multiple times, and then leaving this life by affixation by a monster… its unimaginable. Now ask yourself; does someone capable of such crimes deserve to be among us? You have the following choices...

a. A full life of free medical care in a nice climate controlled room
b. Death

Is a life locked in a nice heated/cooled room punishment enough or has that person forfeited their right to life? Its my opinion when someone kills another willing and with premeditation, they have forfeited their right to life, and the only just penalty is that of death.

If thoughts like this classifies me as a “sick bastard”, then I wear the moniker with pride.

[sammi jo]

So by your logic – someone can kidnap a 9 your old girl (Jessica Lunsford), rape her multiple times, and then kill her by suffocation …and we should not demand vengeance?!?

Well, we must agree to disagree – any monster that would pleasure himself multiple times with a 9 year old girl and then slowly bleed the life from her MUST DIE.

I’m saddened you would rather give them a life long time out with free medical care instead. Personally, I’ll cheer when the bastard, or any other persons that takes anothers life, is put to death.

Would you be bothered if a relative of yours was sentenced to death because he couldn't afford to pay for justice, and ended up with an incompetent public defender who regularly fell asleep during the trial, or some other variety of professional misconduct? Would you be bothered if you knew that your relative was innocent of all charges, and it was only his financial status that kept him separated from real justice? If a plainly guilty person, such as OJ Simpson can get away with (double) murder purely because of his wealth (ie the ability to retain Johnny Cochrane and his "dream team"), then we know for sure that the justice system in this country (let alone Iraq, FFS), is a sick charade. That an unknown number of innocent people have been murdered by the state because they couldn't afford justice is one very glaringly obvious reason that the "death penalty" (pardon the weasly euphemism) is singularly inappropriate in a civilized society. Re. Iraq, Myannmar, China, North Korea, etc etc., it is unrealistic to expect any more from kangaroo courts in totalitarian nations... but in the US?

:no:

[AsLan^]

Re. Iraq, Myannmar, China, North Korea, etc etc., it is unrealistic to expect any more from kangaroo courts in totalitarian nations... but in the US?

:no:

Funnily enough, I was just reading Saddam's history and it seems it was he who brought civilization to Iraq and abolished the Sharia.

Interesting :\

[BR]

I just love the ad hominem attack - nice…real nice.

Back to the example I gave – what punishment if fitting a monster that kidnaps a 9 year old child, rapes her multiple times and then suffocates her? Crimes like this demand no less than death; not a life long stint in a nice climate controlled cell.


I put to everyone – think about this specific example I have mentioned. The sheer fear of being kidnapped, sexually assaulted multiple times, and then leaving this life by affixation by a monster… its unimaginable. Now ask yourself; does someone capable of such crimes deserve to be among us? You have the following choices...

a. A full life of free medical care in a nice climate controlled room
b. Death

Is a life locked in a nice heated/cooled room punishment enough or has that person forfeited their right to life? Its my opinion when someone kills another willing and with premeditation, they have forfeited their right to life, and the only just penalty is that of death.

If thoughts like this classifies me as a “sick bastard”, then I wear the moniker with pride.
See, it should be less about punishment and more about keeping society safe. The latter should be the only thing that matters. Satisfying your bloodlust does nothing but perpetuate a barbaric institution and teach our children that violence is OK.

And in your disgusting pride we see a bleak future for humanity.

[BR]

He obviously never saw Mystic River.

Neither have I.

[Bacillus]

Would you be bothered if a relative of yours was sentenced to death because he couldn't afford to pay for justice, and ended up with an incompetent public defender who regularly fell asleep during the trial, or some other variety of professional misconduct? Would you be bothered if you knew that your relative was innocent of all charges, and it was only his financial status that kept him separated from real justice? If a plainly guilty person, such as OJ Simpson can get away with (double) murder purely because of his wealth (ie the ability to retain Johnny Cochrane and his "dream team"), then we know for sure that the justice system in this country (let alone Iraq, FFS), is a sick charade. That an unknown number of innocent people have been murdered by the state because they couldn't afford justice is one very glaringly obvious reason that the "death penalty" (pardon the weasly euphemism) is singularly inappropriate in a civilized society. Re. Iraq, Myannmar, China, North Korea, etc etc., it is unrealistic to expect any more from kangaroo courts in totalitarian nations... but in the US?

:no:

The classical argument against the death penalty… it sometimes kills the innocent. Is it true that innocent people die? Inevitably yes. I’m the first to stand up and say more should be done to make sure it’s as rare as possible. However, given the proper safeguards, I do not see this as a compelling enough of a reason to completely ban the practice. Let me give you some other examples, to better explain my position…

Nosocomial infections (hospital acquired infections) kill thousands of Americans every year that go to hospitals from otherwise minor conditions. Yet no one suggest closing down all hospitals or only making them available only to the critically ill, because patients who otherwise may have minor conditions, die needlessly from the infections given to them many times by the careless actions of healthcare providers.

With the consumption of alcohol beverages, thousands of innocent people die every year, from DUI and violence from drunken individuals. However, do we ban alcohol beverages? No.

In short…
- Should more be done to ensure the innocent are not executed – YES!!!
- Should more be done to prevent deaths from nosocomal infections – YES!!!
- Should more be done to prevent deaths of innocent people from the consumption of alcohol – YES!!!


However…
- Should the death penalty be abolished because a few innocent people inadvertently die – NO!!!
- Should hospitals/medical procedures be closed/banned because otherwise healthy individuals inadvertently die from hospital acquired infections – NO!!!
- Should the consumption of alcoholic beverages be abolished because innocent people inadvertently die as a direst result of its availability – NO!!!

The point; don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. All three things I’ve mentioned have risk and rewards, and the rewards for society outweigh the risk. Let’s as a society do the best we can to prevent its misuse, and not to outright ban the practice.

To answer your question - of couse I would feel horriable if a relative was excuted when they were innocent. However, would also feel equally bad if a relative died of a nosocomal infection (which my father did three years ago) or was killied by a DUI driver. Do I think the practices should be banned - no, just more regulated.

[AsLan^]

So... we know the rewards of hospitals and alcohol, but what are the rewards of the death penalty?

[Bacillus]

See, it should be less about punishment and more about keeping society safe.

With the death penalty you get BOTH. The scum bucket is punished and society is kept safer becase they are no longer around. Its what we call a win – win situation.


And in your disgusting pride we see a bleak future for humanity.

Please tell me your not an American male.

[Bacillus]

So... we know the rewards of hospitals and alcohol, but are the rewards of the death penalty?

1. Punishment for the crime
2. Closure for the family*
3. The perp will no longer bother society

*However, with that said – I do think it should be up to the family how to proceed. If a family member was murdered and they object to the death penalty, then it should not be sought by the prosecutor. It’s my understanding it’s commonly done this way, but not codified into law.

Returning to my previous and unfortunate ‘real world’ example:mad:, if my nine year old daughter was kidnapped, raped multiple times, and then suffocated – I would want the death penalty. Don’t you think the option should be given to family? I think so. To me that is a good thing - giving them the option and hence a reward/benefit for society.

[BR]

With the death penalty you get BOTH. The scum bucket is punished and society is kept safer becase they are no longer around. Its what we call a win – win situation.

Please tell me your not an American male.

I am an American male and if you have seen my posts in many of Trumpet's threads you'd see I am very much against the pussification of America. However, it takes a real man to overcome bloodlust and behave in a civilized manner. You sir just lack the testicles to move on with your life knowing a criminal will never harm another again. No, you can't live with that. You want blood. It gives you pleasure. This is exactly why you are a sick, cowardly, son of a bitch and quite frankly there are far too many American males just like you.

[BR]

1. Punishment for the crime
2. Closure for the family*
3. The perp will no longer bother society

*However, with that said – I do think it should be up to the family how to proceed. If a family member was murdered and they object to the death penalty, then it should not be sought by the prosecutor. It’s my understanding it’s commonly done this way, but not codified into law.

Returning to my previous and unfortunate ‘real world’ example:mad:, if my nine year old daughter was kidnapped, raped multiple times, and then suffocated – I would want the death penalty. Don’t you think the option should be given to family? I think so. To me that is a good thing - giving them the option and hence a reward/benefit for society.

Closure is just your fancied up term for vengeance and bloodlust. Admit it. Frankly, it's not the family of the victim who you should ask because they certainly are not in any kind of emotional state to make a rational decision. I'm not denying that if it happened to a family member of mine that my base instincts might take over and I might desire vengeance. That doesn't make it right. What you *want* isn't always what is *right*.

[BR]

You'll appreciate it given your understanding of vengeance.

Into the Netflix Queue you go!

[BR]

Once again let me invoke the wise words of one Marquis deSade.

"To kill a man in a paroxysm of passion is understandable, but to have him killed by someone else after calm and serious meditation and on the pretext of duty honourably discharged is incomprehensible."

[AsLan^]

Once again let me invoke the wise words of one Marquis deSade.

"To kill a man in a paroxysm of passion is understandable, but to have him killed by someone else after calm and serious meditation and on the pretext of duty honourably discharged is incomprehensible."

See that's where my thoughts lie on the subject of having ones daughter kidnapped, raped, and killed. If somebody did that to my daughter*, I would find the person and kill them myself (yes, I know, I've seen Mystic River).

If the authorities were able to get to them first, I don't think I'd feel any better with them being executed as opposed to incarcerated for life. It wouldn't bring my daughter back or satisfy my bloodlust.

*Disclosure: I don't actually have any children so this is speculation.

[Chucker]

See that's where my thoughts lie on the subject of having ones daughter kidnapped, raped, and killed. If somebody did that to my daughter*, I would find the person and kill them myself (yes, I know, I've seen Mystic River).

So you admit to still believing in revenge?

[midwinter]

Good fucking riddance.

[AsLan^]

So you admit to still believing in revenge?

Yes, I think so, taken in the context of against someone kidnapping, raping, and murdering my daughter.

But if my daughter were killed by a drunk driver, or in a hospital accident, I don't think I'd be looking for that same revenge.

I also don't consider the state executing someone on my behalf revenge but I'm a pretty big guy, maybe people less capable than myself might consider it a viable substitute.

Personally, I'm undecided on the death penalty. I think it's certainly uncivilized, but then again, the USA isn't exactly the model of civilization.

In a Utopian society, people who perpetrate crimes would be studied and the knowledge gained would be used to prevent that behavior from occurring again.

[midwinter]

When does revenge stop? It's a cycle.

I'm no fan of the death penalty, but I'll bite: why is execution revenge?

[Chucker]

I'm no fan of the death penalty, but I'll bite: why is execution revenge?

If execution is response to someone responsible for killing people (which is certainly the case here), then it arguably is: you're responding to murder with murder. Revenge.

[BR]

I'm no fan of the death penalty, but I'll bite: why is execution revenge?

Because the offender can be prevented from harming others without it.

[midwinter]

If execution is response to someone responsible for killing people (which is certainly the case here), then it arguably is: you're responding to murder with murder. Revenge.


Again, I'm no fan of the death penalty, but by that same logic couldn't you say that any penalty for a breach of the law is "revenge" of some sort?

[midwinter]

Because the offender can be prevented from harming others without it.

Sure, but those other means would be revenge, too.

[BR]

Sure, but those other means would be revenge, too.

No. Preventing someone from hurting others isn't revenge. Going above and beyond that protection and killing someone is.

[midwinter]

No. Preventing someone from hurting others isn't revenge. Going above and beyond that protection and killing someone is.

So if we lock someone away in a cell for the rest of his life and make sure that he has no contact with others (because he might murder again), that's not revenge?

[BR]

So if we lock someone away in a cell for the rest of his life and make sure that he has no contact with others (because he might murder again), that's not revenge?

Now why would we lock someone away in a cell for the rest of his life? Could it be that he was an extreme danger to society?

revenge (n)
The act of taking vengeance for injuries or wrongs; retaliation.
Something done in vengeance; a retaliatory measure.
A desire for revenge; spite or vindictiveness.
An opportunity to retaliate, as by a return sports match after a defeat.

See, protecting society isn't retaliation. I'm sorry if you can't see the difference.

[midwinter]

Now why would we lock someone away in a cell for the rest of his life? Could it be that he was an extreme danger to society?

revenge (n)
The act of taking vengeance for injuries or wrongs; retaliation.
Something done in vengeance; a retaliatory measure.
A desire for revenge; spite or vindictiveness.
An opportunity to retaliate, as by a return sports match after a defeat.

See, protecting society isn't retaliation. I'm sorry if you can't see the difference.

OK. So let me get this straight:

It's OK to imprison people for some time when they do bad things.
It's OK to imprison people for the rest of their natural lives.
It's OK to imprison people for the rest of their lives if they're "an extreme danger to society."

Do I have it right? If I do, I'm not sure where I see "an extreme danger to society" listed in your dictionary quotation.

[BR]

I'm much more into the removing a danger to society and rehab thing than the vindictive punishment thing. There is a difference. In extreme cases where rehab just isn't a possibility, it's best to just remove them from society without killing them.

[midwinter]

In extreme cases where rehab just isn't a possibility, it's best to just remove them from society without killing them.

So a lifetime of torture is better than killing?

[midwinter]

We do need prison reform, but I would ask the inmates themselves if they'd rather die than spend life in prison.

Wait. So you're saying we can take away their right to be in society. We can take away their freedom of movement. We can take away when they sleep and wake and eat and shower and shit and piss. We can take away their ability to be in society. We can take away their ability to even be within the society of people who are taken away from society.

But now we let them choose?

[AsLan^]

Wait. So you're saying we can take away their right to be in society. We can take away their freedom of movement. We can take away when they sleep and wake and eat and shower and shit and piss. We can take away their ability to be in society. We can take away their ability to even be within the society of people who are taken away from society.

But now we let them choose?

I don't see any problem with letting people choose to be euthanized.

[midwinter]

I don't see any problem with letting people choose to be euthanized.

You don't find it ironic that we don't let them choose anything else? I mean, it's sort of "cake or death" without the cake.

[AsLan^]

Well, if they've proven irresponsible with other decisions that they've made then it seems fair to take away those rights.

Just like they take away your driver's license for making poor decisions on the road.

[Chucker]

Again, I'm no fan of the death penalty, but by that same logic couldn't you say that any penalty for a breach of the law is "revenge" of some sort?

Arguably, yes.

However, most penalties, unlike the death penalty, are for the most part undoable.

[Chucker]

So a lifetime of torture is better than killing?

No, if a prison amounts to torture, that prison is flawed.

[midwinter]

Well, if they've proven irresponsible with other decisions that they've made then it seems fair to take away those rights.

Just like they take away your driver's license for making poor decisions on the road.

A driver's license is not a right or a freedom. When we imprison, we take away rights and freedoms.

[midwinter]

No, if a prison amounts to torture, that prison is flawed.

Oh, prison is flawed. Horribly.

[Chucker]

Oh, prison is flawed. Horribly.

Yes, no doubt. But that doesn't mean death penalty is suddenly the better choice.

Prison gives (or should give) people another chance. Death penalty is saying they'll never amount to anything.

[midwinter]

No.

I'm rebutting your point that execution is preferable to (what you characterized life imprisonment as) a "lifetime of torture." It must suck for inmates either way, but I think most would choose to live. Am I wrong here? Are they really begging or praying to die?

I didn't say execution is preferable to anything. I implied that it is silly to draw distinctions between imprisonment and torture and then to argue that we ought to allow people who we contend have lost the ability to choose even the most basic functions of their lives whether they think they ought to be put to death. This is about the state and social contracts, not what some mass murderer thinks he or she deserves.

[AsLan^]

A driver's license is not a right or a freedom. When we imprison, we take away rights and freedoms.

I'd honestly rather not get into semantics.

Yes, a drivers license is a privilege. But if it's a privilege everyone enjoys and can only be withheld by wrongdoing on your part than it might as well be a right.

[midwinter]

Yes, no doubt. But that doesn't mean death penalty is suddenly the better choice.

Prison gives (or should give) people another chance. Death penalty is saying they'll never amount to anything.

Well, you go to the gallows with the prison system you have, not the one you wish you had

As an aside: your argument that the prison should be reformative is a relatively new idea, and one of the hallmarks of "our" (i.e. the Western) system is that it doesn't know whether it wants to be punitive or reformative.

[midwinter]

I'd honestly rather not get into semantics.

Yes, a drivers license is a privilege. But if it's a privilege everyone enjoys and can only be withheld by wrongdoing on your part than it might as well be a right.

This is most definitely not semantics. If anything, it's my attempt to yank this discussion away from argument by analogy. It is NOT a privilege everyone enjoys. Choosing when and where you take a piss is. Choosing what you eat is. Choosing where you sleep is.

In short, I'd rather discuss the issue and not what the issue is similar to.

[BR]

So you can't go to the prison library and choose which book to read? You can't choose to lift weights or play basketball? If you are going to present prison as an entirely choiceless world, you really should have your facts straight first.

[icfireball]

Prisons don't necessarily give people another chance. Many people are in for live with no chance of parole on multiple counts.

One point of prison vs. the death penalty is that its not as miserable being dead. Think of how someone like Saddam would have to live with himself sitting in a cell for the rest of his life, thinking about everything wrong he has ever done.