"Jews-only road"

[100mph]

Sounds familiar? :\

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16075.htm

[mydo]

Yes it does.

Death Penalty: Saudi Court Spares Keralite (An Indian infidel who accidently entered Medina) (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1757546/posts)

A Keralite, who was reportedly facing death sentence in Saudi Arabia, has been set free due to timely intervention of Indian authorities.

Jojo Joseph of Edathua in the district was on Monday ordered to be beheaded for entering the holy place of Medina despite a bar on non-Muslims.

According to Jojo's family members in Edathua, the Saudi authorities later took a lenient view of the case after they were convinced that he did not deliberately commit the mistake.

Jojo, employed in an electronic shop in Jeddah, ran into trouble while rushing in a cab to a hospital where his wife had given birth to a child. The taxi driver took a wrong route and strayed into the prohibited area, his family members said.


What was your original point?

[100mph]

"...

On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. “Why?” I asked the soldier. “It’s an order – this is a Jews-only road”, he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. “It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?”

..."

[100mph]

Israelis turned into Nazis.

[BR]

I like the sweeping generalization. Very conducive to intelligent debate.

[100mph]

Israelis turned into Nazis.
And this is very sad.

There isn't much to debate.

[hardeeharhar]

You do realize that the article was written by an Israeli?

[100mph]

I am referring to the ruling regime and the current state of things, not the entire population.

[hardeeharhar]

In Nazi Germany dissent would have been a death sentence...

I think Israel's actions are appalling, but they aren't Nazis.

[100mph]

In Nazi Germany dissent would have been a death sentence...

I think Israel's actions are appalling, but they aren't Nazis.

Dissent is no longer punished by death sentenced. Today it's simply marginalized by corporate media.
(http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14055.htm)
"Appalling", how convenient.

[hardeeharhar]

I guess you don't find it appalling.

That's right, dissent in Israel is 'marginalized' by corporate media...

Oh, wait... The original article was published in the most read Israeli newspaper...

Well, fuck, those there corporate media types are doing terribly at marginalizing dissent...

[100mph]

Some analogies:

http://www.bloggingneworleans.com/media/2006/06/whitesonly.jpg

http://www.serasphere.net/Pics/WhitesOnly.JPG

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7673/1s8bx.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/373/1k6ze.jpg

[hardeeharhar]

You know the more you compare EVERYTHING to the holocaust the less significant those events become.

Systematic racism and racist actions are on another much much smaller scale than systematic murder of dissidents and ethnic minorities...

[100mph]

Racism and nationalism are the same in all cases (government-sanctioned and supported). Nazis were exterminating Gipsies, Jews and Slavic nations during WWII (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/himmler.html). Now psycho-nationalists in Israel exterminate palestinians.

[hardeeharhar]

Do they really exterminate Arabs (lets make this more general)?

Are there concentration camps where Arabs are systematically murdered in Israel?

Were there concentration camps in the Southern US where blacks were gathered and systematically murdered?

Segregation/Apartheid are terribly ignorant state policies, but they are NOT systematic murder.

We're done here, you and sammi jo can go off and have children together (may god have mercy on their woefully conspiratorial souls).

[100mph]

Israel has been methodically whipping out Palestinians for years, destroying their homes and stealing their land. Camps now called “refugee”, not “concentration”, but result is the same.

[hardeeharhar]

You have to be able to separate the actions of the state, and the actions of individual citizens.

What fraction of the currently existing refugee camps (which are not concentration camps as the state of Israel or the other host states, as the case is, derives no direct benefit from them, they aren't used for systematic enslavement or murder) actual lie in Israel?

What fraction of concentration camps from Nazi Germany were run by other nations?

The answer is the same: None.

You are pushing this analogy way too far...

Israel is not kicking Arab citizens out of the country. Israel IS abusing non-citizen Arabs. This has more to do with citizenship than with the ethnic identity of the people.

[OfficerDigby]

Hardee,
You seem to be going along with allowing the apartheid definition.
If you do that then you can not separate the actions of the government from those of it's citizens as they voted for it and are therefore partially responsible. This is what Ole Nelson Mandela decided when he decided to support terrorism (as the only means of change) before his incarceration.

Unfortunately we are many years away from the possibility of outside countries pushing for change a la SA.

[mydo]

Israel has been methodically whipping out Palestinians for years, destroying their homes and stealing their land. Camps now called “refugee”, not “concentration”, but result is the same.

Weren't those refugee camps set up by the UN? Not the Israelis? Not to mention the 100s of millions of dollars that have flooded into the camps over the years and have been systematically stolen by the criminal gangs disguised as political organizations. I have no love to Israel but at the same time I'm aware that thugs that run the west bank and gaza are far more damaging to the Palestinians that the Israelis are. The worst thing Arafat did was to leave Palestine with no political system based on rule of law and power of the pen over the sword. In the end I can only conclude that he was out for himself more than he was out for his people.

[hardeeharhar]

Hardee,
You seem to be going along with allowing the apartheid definition.
If you do that then you can not separate the actions of the government from those of it's citizens as they voted for it and are therefore partially responsible. This is what Ole Nelson Mandela decided when he decided to support terrorism (as the only means of change) before his incarceration.

Unfortunately we are many years away from the possibility of outside countries pushing for change a la SA.
I don't agree with the apartheid definition as such (hence my comments on citizenship), but find this tendency to villainize everyone as Nazis to be one of the more egregious sizes of lazy psuedo-intellectuals, and I can't stand it any longer.

For the record, apartheid doesn't apply to the state of Israel...

[New]

Israel is in fact kicking palestinians out. Many arab citizens of Jerusalem and its surroundings (in todays Israel) cannot get full citizenship, and will not be allowed to enter back into their home town if they leave, say to visit family on the West Bank.

linky. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1219/p01s04-wome.html)

The Nazi comparison, however, will get us nowhere.

[hardeeharhar]

New, not to belabor the point, while an insane and completely unforgiveable situation has produced the results inlustrated in your link, the young lady is not nor ever was a citizen of Israel.

[OfficerDigby]

I don't agree with the apartheid definition as such (hence my comments on citizenship), but find this tendency to villainize everyone as Nazis to be one of the more egregious sizes of lazy psuedo-intellectuals, and I can't stand it any longer.

For the record, apartheid doesn't apply to the state of Israel...

Not fully in the State of Israel as defined by Internation boundaries. In the other occupied defacto parts of the extended State it certainly does though don't it!

[hardeeharhar]

Not fully in the State of Israel as defined by Internation boundaries. In the other occupied defacto parts of the extended State it certainly does though don't it!
The people there are treated terribly, yes, but it still isn't apartheid in that the people are actually citizens of another, different entity which does hold regular elections... It is an occupied territory, unjustly possesed still, but an occupied and hostile territory nonetheless...

[hardeeharhar]

Right now the worst thing occuring around and about Israel is the breakdown of the political body of the new Palestinian state -- when parties become armed thugs democracy is essentially dead...

[OfficerDigby]

Right now the worst thing occuring around and about Israel is the breakdown of the political body of the new Palestinian state -- when parties become armed thugs democracy is essentially dead...

why's that then? - If you cut off the money (import duties) and totally isolate a democratically elected governemt so no one is paid what do expect? Also excuse but there is no Palestinian State it has never been allowed!

but it still isn't apartheid in that the people are actually citizens of another, different entity which does hold regular elections... It is an occupied territory, unjustly possesed still, but an occupied and hostile territory nonetheless...

Bantustan
Proponents of apartheid argued that once apartheid had been implemented, blacks would no longer be citizens of South Africa; rather, they would become citizens of the independent "homelands". In terms of this model, blacks became (foreign) "guest labourers" who merely worked in South Africa as the holders of temporary work permits.
The South African government attempted to divide South Africa into a number of separate states. Some eighty-seven percent of the land was reserved for whites, coloureds and Indians. About thirteen percent of the land was divided into ten 'homelands' for blacks (80% of the population) and some were given independence, though this was never recognised by any other country. Once the homelands were granted 'independence', those who were designated as belonging to such a homeland had their South African citizenship revoked, and replaced with homeland citizenship.


The way of getting there is different but the end result looks the same. If you 'Essentially' Rule the land you just deny citizenshp for your own purpose - Voila apartheid!

[hardeeharhar]

By palestinian state, I was jumping the gun... Palestinia National Authority, which for all intents and purposes is a semi-functional state.

The mechanisms and final outcome of apartheid in SA is far different than the mechanisms and potential final outcome of the situation in the West Bank, say... Arab citizens in Israel proper are not being forciably removed, and again, Israel's actions in the West Bank are appaling, but apartheid is over the top... just like Nazi...

[OfficerDigby]

Now you your saying that drawing analogies between the defacto status of occupied/colonised Israeli land and Apartheid - Is the same as saying Israelis are a bunch of Nazis and hence can't be countenanced!


but find this tendency to villainize everyone as Nazis to be one of the more egregious sizes of lazy psuedo-intellectuals, and I can't stand it any longer.
DOH!

for the record I'm with President Carter on this one. Let's give the article some air!.



Indeed there is Apartheid in Israel

A new order issued by the GOC Central command bans the conveyance of Palestinians in Israeli vehicles. Such a blatant violation of the right to travel joins the long list of humans rights violations carried out by Israel in the [Occupied] Territories.

By Shulamit Aloni

01/05/06 "Ynet " --- - Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.

The US Jewish Establishment’s onslaught on former President Jimmy Carter is based on him daring to tell the truth which is known to all: through its army, the government of Israel practises a brutal form of Apartheid in the territory it occupies. Its army has turned every Palestinian village and town into a fenced-in, or blocked-in, detention camp. All this is done in order to keep an eye on the population’s movements and to make its life difficult. Israel even imposes a total curfew whenever the settlers, who have illegally usurped the Palestinians’ land, celebrate their holidays or conduct their parades.

If that were not enough, the generals commanding the region frequently issue further orders, regulations, instructions and rules (let us not forget: they are the lords of the land). By now they have requisitioned further lands for the purpose of constructing “Jewish only” roads. Wonderful roads, wide roads, well-paved roads, brightly lit at night – all that on stolen land. When a Palestinian drives on such a road, his vehicle is confiscated and he is sent on his way.

On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. “Why?” I asked the soldier. “It’s an order – this is a Jews-only road”, he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing [other] drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing. “It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign here and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?”

Indeed Apartheid does exist here. And our army is not “the most moral army in the world” as we are told by its commanders. Sufficient to mention that every town and every village has turned into a detention centre and that every entry and every exit has been closed, cutting it off from arterial traffic. If it were not enough that Palestinians are not allowed to travel on the roads paved ‘for Jews only’, on their land, the current GOC found it necessary to land an additional blow on the natives in their own land with an “ingenious proposal”.

Humanitarian activists cannot transport Palestinians either

Major-General Naveh, renowned for his superior patriotism, has issued a new order. Coming into affect on 19 January, it prohibits the conveyance of Palestinians without a permit. The order determines that Israelis are not allowed to transport Palestinians in an Israeli vehicle (one registered in Israel regardless of what kind of numberplate it carries) unless they have received explicit permission to do so. The permit relates to both the driver and the Palestinian passenger. Of course none of this applies to those whose labour serves the settlers. They and their employers will naturally receive the required permits so they can continue to serve the lords of the land, the settlers.

Did man of peace President Carter truly err in concluding that Israel is creating Apartheid? Did he exaggerate? Don’t the US Jewish community leaders recognise the International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination of 7 March 1966, to which Israel is a signatory? Are the US Jews who launched the loud and abusive campaign against Carter for supposedly maligning Israel’s character and its democratic and humanist nature unfamiliar with the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid of 30 November 1973? Apartheid is defined therein as an international crime that among other things includes using different legal instruments to rule over different racial groups, thus depriving people of their human rights. Isn’t freedom of travel one of these rights?

In the past, the US Jewish community leaders were quite familiar with the meaning of those conventions. For some reason, however, they are convinced that Israel is allowed to contravene them. It’s OK to kill civilians, women and children, old people and parents with their children, deliberately or otherwise without accepting any responsibility. It’s permissible to rob people of their lands, destroy their crops, and cage them up like animals in the zoo. From now on, Israelis and International humanitarian organisations’ volunteers are prohibited from assisting a woman in labour by taking her to the hospital. [Israeli human rights group] Yesh Din volunteers cannot take a robbed and beaten-up Palestinian to the police station to lodge a complaint. (Police stations are located at the heart of the settlements.) Is there anyone who believes that this is not Apartheid?

Jimmy Carter does not need me to defend his reputation that has been sullied by Israelophile community officials. The trouble is that their love of Israel distorts their judgment and blinds them from seeing what’s in front of them. Israel is an occupying power that for 40 years has been oppressing an indigenous people, which is entitled to a sovereign and independent existence while living in peace with us. We should remember that we too used very violent terror against foreign rule because we wanted our own state. And the list of victims of terror is quite long and extensive.

We do limit ourselves to denying the [Palestinian] people human rights. We not only rob of them of their freedom, land and water. We apply collective punishment to millions of people and even, in revenge-driven frenzy, destroy the electricity supply for one and half million civilians. Let them “sit in the darkness” and “starve”.

Employees cannot be paid their wages because Israel is holding 500 million shekels that belong to the Palestinians. And after all that we remain “pure as the driven snow”. There are no moral blemishes on our actions. There is no racial separation. There is no Apartheid. It’s an invention of the enemies of Israel. Hooray for our brothers and sisters in the US! Your devotion is very much appreciated. You have truly removed a nasty stain from us. Now there can be an extra spring in our step as we confidently abuse the Palestinian population, using the “most moral army in the world”.

Shulamit Aloni, the Israeli Prize laureate who once served as Minister of Education under Yitzhak Rabin, is from Yediot Acharonot, Israel’s largest circulating newspaper, which appeared in the Hebrew Ynet but not in the English-language Ynetnews.

Tranlated by Sol Salbe, an Australian editor, whose comments are in square brackets.

Hebrew original: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3346283,00.html Yediot Acharonot, Israel’s largest circulating newspaper.

Click on "comments" below to read or po

[hardeeharhar]

I am not suggesting that there isn't a grain of truth in the argument that the occupied territories look like apartheid south africa, it is just that it is a very different situation, one that anyone with any sense wouldn't stoop to compare to any other situation. If apartheid had been the result of a series of wars in which the occupied territories were literally hostile at the time (and perhaps even now), that the international community had created the situation for those wars to exist first by ignoring one side of the equation and then the other and now, effectively, both...the list goes on...

but whatever, I want the situation to end as much as anyone does and classification does nothing move it forward...

[mydo]

Right now the worst thing occuring around and about Israel is the breakdown of the political body of the new Palestinian state -- when parties become armed thugs democracy is essentially dead...

They didn't become that. They were that all along. Arafat and his people were, are still, the armed thugs. Hamas and their people are now and have always been armed thugs. Arafat never had any intention of creating a sustainable government or rule of law. What is happening now is his legacy.

[100mph]

Israel is a super nationalistic shit hole with trigger-happy army. Does not obey by international laws, and gives no fuck about human rights.
It never peacefully coexisted with its neighbors, and not letting us to live in peace.

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy:
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

I normally avoid buying anything made there.

[hardeeharhar]

How is that different from the US, or China, or Russia, or Indonesia, or...?

Is it because the country is mostly Jewish that you feel you should point this out?

[100mph]

"... US, or China, or Russia, or Indonesia, or... ..."


To some degree …

But Israel blows.

Read the article:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Watch the movie.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Peace%2C+Propaganda+%26+the+Promised+Land+&btnG=Search

Do more research:

http://www.chomsky.info/articles.htm

Have a good day.

[100mph]

I will be talking about racism, radical nationalism, disrespect of human rights regardless of countries and nationalities.

And Israel is one of the biggest and ugliest examples.

[hardeeharhar]

Again, how is this different than say, the US?

[BR]

I was there over the summer and I saw plenty of coexisting. Please separate the government from the people. Or should I call you a bloodthirsty murdering bastard because GWB must represent your views?

[100mph]

Again, how is this different than say, the US?
I am not sure what exactly you are asking. :???:
Are you trying to say that all governments suck?

[100mph]

... Please separate the government from the people. ...

I already did - see above.

Generally, I don’t have anything against people (countries), only against governments (states). ;)

[hardeeharhar]

I am not sure what exactly you are asking. :???:
Are you trying to say that all governments suck?
You claim that Israel is the worst example of abuse.

My proposition is that the US is worse...

[100mph]

You claim that Israel is the worst example of abuse.

My proposition is that the US is worse...

Actually, it was something like "one of the worst".
But in any case ... I am with you.

[Tulkas]

Israel is a super nationalistic shit hole with trigger-happy army. Does not obey by international laws, and gives no fuck about human rights.
It never peacefully coexisted with its neighbors, and not letting us to live in peace.

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy:
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

I normally avoid buying anything made there.

How very noble of you.:no:


Guess that means you will be tossing your new iBook?

[audiopollution]

How very noble of you.:no:


Guess that means you will be tossing your new iBook?

Hehe.

[100mph]

How very noble of you.:no:


Guess that means you will be tossing your new iBook?

The CPU of my new MacBook (correct it in your post, otherwise others may start thinking that you are real outsider here) may be designed in Israel (I think Intel has a lab there), but the MacBook itself is made in China. You know, that pinko China where even WalMart hosts Communist Party (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/21BE3634-536A-477F-A812-6AEC9A148E80.htm).

[segovius]

Back on topic - I have a question pertaining to the Nazi issue a few posts back.

Why can't people be compared to Nazis?

Nazism is far more than Concentration camps. It is an extreme right-wing racist ideology that resulted in murder.

If another group also has an extreme right-wing racist ideology - especially if they also murder - then I say the comparison is apt. They may not use the same methods, they may not commit genocide on a massive scale - or then again they may go on to do so.

The groups I would regard as 'Nazi' today are still in the game and look like having decades more to show what they have in the locker.

I agree in the main though, the term is counter-rpoductive because it gives those who are that way inclined themselves a convenient out-cluase or free-derail card. Besides, 'fascist' is probably descriptive enough but what's wrong with calling them actually what they are depending on the group under consideration: Zionists, Islamophobes, fundies, Wing-nuts....any of these are pretty appalling things to be and may well eclipse the Nazis if given enough time, a free hand and the right (wrong) circumstances in which to operate.

[hardeeharhar]

There has not been an apt comparison with the Nazis since their defeat. Unfortunately, what the Nazis did is so heinous that unless some other nation takes over a continent and systematically murders its hated minorities (the US pre-1900 IS an apt comparison) for political and economic gain, the comparison isn't justified.

Call them what they are. Genocidal or Fascist or.... but calling them Nazis or like the Nazis is either incredibly inaccurate or just wrong...

[Powerdoc]

Back on topic - I have a question pertaining to the Nazi issue a few posts back.

Why can't people be compared to Nazis?

Nazism is far more than Concentration camps. It is an extreme right-wing racist ideology that resulted in murder.

If another group also has an extreme right-wing racist ideology - especially if they also murder - then I say the comparison is apt. They may not use the same methods, they may not commit genocide on a massive scale - or then again they may go on to do so.

The groups I would regard as 'Nazi' today are still in the game and look like having decades more to show what they have in the locker.

I agree in the main though, the term is counter-rpoductive because it gives those who are that way inclined themselves a convenient out-cluase or free-derail card. Besides, 'fascist' is probably descriptive enough but what's wrong with calling them actually what they are depending on the group under consideration: Zionists, Islamophobes, fundies, Wing-nuts....any of these are pretty appalling things to be and may well eclipse the Nazis if given enough time, a free hand and the right (wrong) circumstances in which to operate.

For me, and many historians, the specificity of nazism, is the industrialisation of mass murdering.
During human, history, there was a lot of bloody dictatorship. If we consider only the twenty century, the nazi where not alone, to have exterminate more than one million people :
- staline
- pol pot
- mao
But the point is that you can discribe Staline, as a nazi. The nazi are unique, because the way they practiced mass murdering.

So for me, zionist, islamophobs, fundies, wing nuts, or whatever are not nazis. Call them facist if you want, but not nazis.
Remember that nazis are only a sub part of the great fascist family

[Tulkas]

The CPU of my new MacBook (correct it in your post, otherwise others may start thinking that you are real outsider here) may be designed in Israel (I think Intel has a lab there), but the MacBook itself is made in China. You know, that pinko China where even WalMart hosts Communist Party (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/21BE3634-536A-477F-A812-6AEC9A148E80.htm).
hmm..you nobel ideals start to appear very bendable. You righteously opt not to purchase products made in human-rights violating Israel. OK. But you will buy products from human-rights abusing China. And yes, the primary component of your laptop was developed, designed and continues to be developed at an Intel facility in Israel. Haifa, I believe. I guess you will just have to suffer the fact that your purchase contributed to Israel's economy.

[100mph]

hmm..you nobel ideals start to appear very bendable. You righteously opt not to purchase products made in human-rights violating Israel. OK. But you will buy products from human-rights abusing China. And yes, the primary component of your laptop was developed, designed and continues to be developed at an Intel facility in Israel. Haifa, I believe. I guess you will just have to suffer the fact that your purchase contributed to Israel's economy.

That's fine. One of my old friends emigrated to Haifa.

As far as China ... I was more pointing out the 'bendability' of the US policies.

[Tulkas]

That's fine. One of my old friends emigrated to Haifa.


???

I had a friend that moved to Denver...so what?


As far as China ... I was more pointing out the 'bendability' of the US policies.
?????
You are pointing out 'bendability' of US policies by violating your own righteous ideal of not purchasing goods from Israel? Or by purchasing good made in human-rights abusing China, which was your own given reason for not purchasing Israeli made goods.

I guess if your ideals are only as strong as your desire for a computer, there isn't really any hypocrisy.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Mika.

[Nightcrawler]

I think the UN-security-council should put sanctions upon Israel, economic, political and if nothing helps even miltary sanctions, in the form of an intervention.

Why?

Not because of apartheit, not because of excessive use of force, not because of ignorance and violation of key-UN-security-resolutions, not because of the internationally illegal settler-program... these are only symptoms of crimes against humanity.

Israel should be sanctioned severly because of crimes against humanity.

For more than 30 years Israel has kept the palestinians under military occupation, that occupation with all its symptoms, be it land- and ressources-stealing, oppression, destruction of economic and agraric grounds, emprisonment without charge, torture, assassinations, military raids, be it humiliating and crippling checkpoints, there are numerous other symptoms, that occupation is the crime against humanity for which Israel should be sanctioned by the UN-security-council, until it genuinely is motivated to make a real, just and lasting peace with its neighbours.

You think this is onesided, what about the hostility of Israel's neighbours, what about the terror of the palestinians you ask?

The indiscriminate terrorism of the palestinians was wrong and brutal and also a crime against humanity, but it was only a drop of water against the sea, that is Israel's crime against humanity, a misguided attempt to shake off the oppressive chains, and the palestinians were and are already sanctioned for it politically and economically, as well as militarily.

It's time to remind Israel of its responsibilty, too.

Nightcrawler

[segovius]

I think the UN-security-council should put sanctions upon Israel, economic, political and if nothing helps even miltary sanctions, in the form of an intervention.

They do pass the odd resolution to keep up appearances but you are dreaming if you think anyone will rein them in. They not only have a license to run amok - it is their job.

The people who would pass such sanctions are the people who support and encourage their abuses.

Israel has a free pass - not for any historical reason but because they are part of the same sickness of the b@stards that control life in the west. They are just the 'Middle Eastern' department.

[sammi jo]

Both sides are doing terrible wrongs to each other, and there are psychopaths and sociopaths in positions of power and influence on, and allied to both sides, who are vested in the conflict, and the continuation of such. One problem is the current attitude of the US (especially this administration, and to a lesser extent previous ones) who regard an Israeli life as more valid than a Palestinian one, and the notion that Israel as an entity is allowed to get away with whatever they want. Israel in the last few decades has perpetrated deeds that no other nation on this earth could ever hope to pull off without being subject to sanctions and other severe international repercussions... including military action in some cases.

[Nightcrawler]

They do pass the odd resolution to keep up appearances but you are dreaming if you think anyone will rein them in. They not only have a license to run amok - it is their job.

The people who would pass such sanctions are the people who support and encourage their abuses.

Israel has a free pass - not for any historical reason but because they are part of the same sickness of the b@stards that control life in the west. They are just the 'Middle Eastern' department.

Maybe, but like Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream.."

A good start would be to force Israel to dismantle all settlements that were built on private palestinian land, since that is illegal even to israeli law, and as far as I know 40% of the settlements in the westbank were built on private palestinian land.

The next step would be to force Israel to divide all water-ressources between Israel and the palestinians in the westbank and Gaza in a strict 50-50-relation.

Another step would be to force Israel to disarm all israeli settlers in the Westbank, often they are heavily armed and abusing their firepower.

Nightcrawler

[Nightcrawler]

Both sides are doing terrible wrongs to each other, and there are psychopaths and sociopaths in positions of power and influence on, and allied to both sides, who are vested in the conflict, and the continuation of such. One problem is the current attitude of the US (especially this administration, and to a lesser extent previous ones) who regard an Israeli life as more valid than a Palestinian one, and the notion that Israel as an entity is allowed to get away with whatever they want. Israel in the last few decades has perpetrated deeds that no other nation on this earth could ever hope to pull off without being subject to sanctions and other severe international repercussions... including military action in some cases.

Russia has acted and acts much more severe and comdemnable in Chechnya without being punished for it internationally, even without getting much criticisement nor coverage.

Nightcrawler

[sammi jo]

Russia has acted and acts much more severe and comdemnable in Chechnya without being punished for it internationally, even without getting much criticisement nor coverage.

Nightcrawler

Yes, very correct.

It would be appropriate to exclude all the superpowers (US, Russia (USSR) and perhaps China as well) from this argument.

[Nightcrawler]

Yes, very correct.

It would be appropriate to exclude all the superpowers (US, Russia (USSR) and perhaps China as well) from this argument.

I would say Russia's behaviour is more brutal than Israel's in the occupied territories, but there is an important difference, Russia isn't driving chechnyans from their land, while Israel conducts and conducted a settler-policy with expropriations of land and ressources at the cost of the palestinians.

Nightcrawler