Children of Men - Reality?

[Srewop]

I saw Children of Men tonight, and I was just wondering if anyone thinks that what happened in that movie can happen in modern society. Not just the infertility, but the global widespread chaos and horrible treatment of immigrants.

Some of the scenes in the movie were very disturbing, such as the immigrants locked up in cages. The city of London was in total ruins and armed mobs rueled the streets.

Can our society today turn into the hate, fear, and violence driven society in Children of Men?

[Kickaha]

What do you mean 'turn into'?

At any given moment, we're about two weeks worth of electricity and water from total self-destruction, IMO.

[Srewop]

What do you mean 'turn into'?



Currently, nuclear weapons have not been detonated in the major cities of the World, the cities themselves are relatively clean; not piled with garbage. Immigrants are not being executed my the hundreds. There is still order in the World, and order is nowhere to be seen in Children of Men.

[dmz]

It think it has more to do with P.D. James' (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/pdjames/faq.html) take on humanity, than any sort of prediction.

[dmz]

One more thing:

A discussion on James' take here, with a short clip of an interview with James herself (near the end):
http://media.libsyn.com/media/mhadigital/MHA_Audition_005.mp3
Interesting stuff.

[segovius]

We're already there.

Wake up.

[turnwrite]

Would it be so terrible if our society were to break down like that? The society we have now is corrupt and violent. We are cruel and start needless wars. We pass laws which hinder our freedom on many fronts (DRM, Patriot Act, airport security) and we are constantly bombarded with propanganda and biased news from the media.

I'm not sure a restart would be such a bad thing.

[Srewop]

We pass laws which hinder our freedom on many fronts (DRM, Patriot Act, airport security)

Sorry turn...

[turnwrite]

Uhm... Okay.

Well that was just an example, sorry I couldn't think of a better one. The first two were definitely more substantial, you could have read my whole post rather than ranting about two words in it.... Anyway, I was just trying to express that I think our society needs to be rewritten from the ground up. We have a lot of problems that could be solved with a new social structure. The only way to get there is through a brief period of anarchy. But if that period is brief, and leads to a better society at the end, it is not such a bad thing.

I was not really talking about airport security at all. Happy now?

[Denton]

There is only one thing of which you can be sure: this, too, shall pass; me, you, our society, and even our species. It will all end sometime. When Rome fell, it heralded a dark age in Europe and western Asia which lasted to the Renaissance. When the West falls, whether that is one hundred years from now or a thousand years from now, the pattern will be the same. Billions will die, and our great cities will lie in ruin to be reclaimed by the earth until their names and locations have passed from all memory.

You wonder if the collapse of our society is possible? Not only is it possible, but I would propose that it is inevitable. History is our template; unless we learn from our history! If you are interested in reading about how and why societies succeed or fail, I would strongly recommend the book Collapse (2005) by Jared Diamond. It is an excellent read; and fascinating!

[turnwrite]

There is only one thing of which you can be sure: this, too, shall pass; me, you, our society, and even our species. It will all end sometime. When Rome fell, it heralded a dark age in Europe and western Asia which lasted to the Renaissance. When the West falls, whether that is one hundred years now or a thousand years from now, the pattern will be the same. Billions will die, and our great cities will lie in ruin to be reclaimed by the earth until their names and locations have passed from all memory.

You wonder if the collapse of our society is possible? Not only is it possible, but I would propose that it is inevitable. History is our template; unless we learn from our history! If you are interested in reading about how and why societies succeed or fail, I would strongly recommend the book Collapse (2005) by Jared Diamond. It is an excellent read; and fascinating!

I agree with you, and I go a step farther, proposing that the collapse of modern society is not only inevitable, it is even desirable.

[Denton]

I agree with you, and I go a step farther, proposing that the collapse of modern society is not only inevitable, it is even desirable.

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.

[dstranathan]

Realistic or not, THIS IS A GREAT FILM. Wow.

[turnwrite]

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.

Not the extinction of humanity, the destruction of society. The social structure we live in will break down to allow humanity as a species to live more freely and happier. Nobody has to die.

[Kickaha]

So you're expecting a bloodless revolution that completely overturns the existing order of power, society, economics, and politics?

Good luck with that, let me know how it turns out.

[Outsider]

Thinking about the time we live in now, in the broad context of human civilization on this planet, I think we are living in the golden age, even now with all the wars and corruption, we still live fairly free lives, we're comfortable, etc. This won't last. Gene Roddenberry had it all wrong :D

[turnwrite]

Oh fine then, I give up. I was just a thought... :\

[midwinter]

I haven't seen it yet, but it seems to be one of those post-apocalypse movies that explore man's capacity for nastiness.

Is it just me, or do the English seem much more interested in this theme than anyone else at the moment? 28 Days Later. Children of Men. Reign of Fire (weren't the writers British?). Saramago's Blindness (set in London).

[hardeeharhar]

It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history, they are acutely aware of how a few bad years can turn the world upside down...

[midwinter]

It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history, they are acutely aware of how a few bad years can turn the world upside down...

You may be right (although I'd like to hear a Brit chime in about this).

[Omega]

Were you like me and rooting for SARS? What a gip that epidemic was!! Bird Flu, another no show.

Thin out the numbers.

[turnwrite]

Is it just me or did the background scenery in that movie look like it came right out of Half Life 2?

[Splinemodel]

I'm not sure a restart would be such a bad thing.

What's that Jefferson quote again? You, know the one about the necessity of revolutions from time to time in order to keep government honest. . . I think a multi-party system would be enough to do just that, but it would probably take some bloodshed at this point to get there.

[turnwrite]

What's that Jefferson quote again? You, know the one about the necessity of revolutions from time to time in order to keep government honest. . . I think a multi-party system would be enough to do just that, but it would probably take some bloodshed at this point to get there.

Do the ends justify the means?

[Jeremy Hopes]

Haven't seen the film yet - but it's now on DVD (I think) so it's on my to do list.

It may just be that given the age of the British democratic social experiment, and its obviously tenuous nature given their history,

Not quite sure what the tenuous nature bit means - as I think the social experiment has proved to be hugely stable as in true British tradition our democracy is something of a mongrel, Welsh (Briton?) and Roman society, taken over by the Saxons - supplanted by the Normans. Then the Magna Carta etc etc - all different ruling classes but a surprising amount of continunity provided by the people they ruled. It could be argued that the people perhaps changed the rulers?. With the exception of the Civil War British Society seems to have met challenges by adapting and changing painfully slowly!

I think it's left something of a fear of sudden change in the British and this is reflected in our science fiction. We're generally not optimistic about the future. Dysfunctional futures certainly aren't a new thing here - the TV greats of my youth were pretty much all about things falling apart (Quatermass, Day of the Triffids, Survivors, Threads etc etc) Generally they featured a plucky band of survivors trying to recreate an ordered society again.

I think this fear is misplaced and I agree with Outsider that things are better now than ever (apart from climate change) - but being English I think should just say it's all going to the dogs and any future changes are bound to be negative - the future, like the past, is a foreign country and you know how receptive we are in our little Island about that sort of thing! :lol:

[midwinter]

With the exception of the Civil War British Society seems to have met challenges by adapting and changing painfully slowly!

Well, the CW was a pretty big deal, and my sense is that it remained in the back of folks' minds for the next century at least.

I think it's left something of a fear of sudden change in the British and this is reflected in our science fiction.

I suspect that a part of it is that British history is full of sudden (or sudden-ish) changes that scared the hell out of everyone. A history of being invaded and conquered and abandoned, a history of swapping religions, of plagues, of epidemics, then the civil war, then kings with heads lopped off, then restorations, then the '15 and the '45, and a century of WOULD EVERYONE JUST CHILL during which everyone did NOT chill and they kept with all those bloody scientific advancements, then the 19th century which rightly scared the shit out of everyone, then WWI, which scared them even worse, and then, and then....

[dmz]

Did I mention that it's probably not so much a prediction as it is P.D. James' take on modern selfishness, and the 'you are the things you own' mentality?

Although the Tolkien quote on allegory may apply here, that 'people sometimes confuse applicability with allegory.' Maybe vice versa?

[midwinter]

Did I mention that it's probably not so much a prediction as it is P.D. James' take on modern selfishness, and the 'you are the things you own' mentality?

Although the Tolkien quote on allegory may apply here, that 'people sometimes confuse applicability with allegory.' Maybe vice versa?

I had no idea James was a Marxist. Isn't she an aristocrat?

[dmz]

I had no idea James was a Marxist. Isn't she an aristocrat?
Are you being funny? (My sarcasm sensors are on the blink.)

[midwinter]

Are you being funny? My sarcasm sensors are on the blink.

Marx makes the same kind of critique of identity being conflated with possessions and labor.

[dmz]

Marx makes the same kind of critique of identity being conflated with possessions and labor.
Oh.




(I don't think the caffine in on duty this morning.)







Actually, she is Christian, that Mars Hill podcast I linked to brushes on that. She isn't very public about it at all -- apparently likes to illustrate ideas, textures of good/evil rather than do the ' Jeezus-as-a-nifty/goofy-abstraction' thing.

Think 'Dorthy Sayers meets Flannery O'Connor.' Sort of.

[Jeremy Hopes]

Well, the CW was a pretty big deal, and my sense is that it remained in the back of folks' minds for the next century at least.

Yes, you're right, I wasn't trying to downplay the English Civil War - but what's interesting is that it was one of the few times social change happened here through a revolution or a coup.

Also unlike other nations - the republic was very shortlived. After Cromwells death the monachy was re-instated.

Perhaps it has left us with a huge distrust of utopian futures!

[midwinter]

Actually, she is Christian, that Mars Hill podcast I linked to brushes on that. She isn't very public about it at all -- apparently likes to illustrate ideas, textures of good/evil rather than do the ' Jeezus-as-a-nifty/goofy-abstraction' thing.

Think 'Dorthy Sayers meets Flannery O'Connor.' Sort of.

Well, being a Christian isn't incompatible with Marxism; his comments about religion are often pretty practical in nature.

[SpamSandwich]

If you think that the death of billions is desirable, I'll have to disagree.

Billions die all the time. They just do it slowly. You must be thinking there will be some kind of Apocalypse... It ain't necessarily so.

[dmz]

Well, being a Christian isn't incompatible with Marxism; his comments about religion are often pretty practical in nature.

I haven't read any of here titles, so I'll have to give that a great big shrug. The analysis seems more towards a moral critique, from a Christian stance; it is a subtle one, though.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0609/reviews/wood.html


(I need to stop Judge Jonesing this issue.)

[dmz]

The only other thing I should add, is that the typical 'fundies are stupid, superstitious, pigs' take will hinder understanding what she is up to.

[segovius]

The only other thing I should add, is that the typical 'fundies are stupid, superstitious, pigs' take will hinder understanding what she is up to.

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.

I suppose it will actually be the fundies that wheel out the metaphorical (I hope) auto de fe and the red-hot pincers to deal with her heresies rather than the other way round.

[midwinter]

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.

Which is why she sounds like a Marxist. ;)

[dmz]

Except that she is not a fundie but a member of that highly endangered and dwindling species: the true Christian.
How could she possibly be a 'true Christian' with all that moralizing and the literal interpretation that Christ is the son of God?

Get your pinchers and the dispersion machine warmed up.

[segovius]

How could she possibly be a 'true Christian' with all that moralizing and the literal interpretation that Christ is the son of God?

Get your pinchers and the dispersion machine warmed up.

They are permanently heated have no fear.

In this case though they may be unnecessary. Although she is a conservative and somewhat reactionary - she is also a liberal Christian. This is what makes her interesting (or at least tolerable); an awareness of her contradictions - something fundies never have by definition.

Having said that though, one has to agree with the reviewer (Mark Lawson) who said: "when reading James, you do find yourself nostalgic for crack cocaine, anal sex and people calling each other "mutha"'.

[dmz]

They are permanently heated have no fear.

In this case though they may be unnecessary. Although she is a conservative and somewhat reactionary - she is also a liberal Christian. This is what makes her interesting (or at least tolerable); an awareness of her contradictions - something fundies never have by definition.

Having said that though, one has to agree with the reviewer (Mark Lawson) who said: "when reading James, you do find yourself nostalgic for crack cocaine, anal sex and people calling each other "mutha"'.
Such a funny guy.

High-church Anglican from what I'm copying and pasting. Watch the sharp edges on that Christ thing!

Worth reading in any case -- and before I comment any further.

[midwinter]

High-church Anglican from what I'm copying and pasting.

Ah, so she's a Catholic.

/me runs for cover.

[dmz]

Ah, so she's a Catholic.

/me runs for cover.
Heretic! The same stripe as the ones that hung & imprisoned the Puritans!

(When they weren't heading up James' bible translation committee.)

[gregmightdothat]

Ah, so she's a Catholic.

/me runs for cover.
Yeah, Anglicanism and Catholicism are pretty radically different.

[midwinter]

Yeah, Anglicanism and Catholicism are pretty radically different.

High Church. There's some history there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_movement).

[Splinemodel]

Do the ends justify the means?

Were our revolutionary fore-bearers standing around with their hands on their dicks mumbling worriedly about the ends justifying the means? If that we're the case, we'd still be pledging allegiance to the queen. If you believe in something, of course the ends justify the means, for better or for worse. Belief in nothing may prevent fundamentalism from creeping in, but it also prevents the genuinely good ideas from creeping in.

[Denton]

Billions die all the time. They just do it slowly. You must be thinking there will be some kind of Apocalypse... It ain't necessarily so.

Obviously I was refering to a shorter time-frame, though not necessarily as short as a matter of days or even months. Let me just pose you a simple question. The food that you eat: where does it come from? And, no, I'm not talking about the supermarket! Where is your food grown and processed? If, like me, less than 50% of your calories are grown and processed further than 100 mi. from your house, how well will you survive the collapse of the West? -- not very well, I would guess. Do you realise that only 2 people out of every 1000 in the US are involved in food production? This is possible because of the extremely high ordered society that we have built. If we knock the pegs out from under our social structure, we may have to quickly return to practices of a century ago where the numbers were closer to 2 in 10. What happens to those other 990 people? A lot of them starve! And since you will have a lot of starvation, there will be a lot of people killing each other for what little resources remain. And with globalisation, if one country falls, we all fall because we are all economically connected through trade. So what I was really alluding to was that within a timeframe of, say, 10 years, it is conceivable that the world population could fall to below one billion; this is predicated on a collapse of any country or economy with sufficient weight to "get the ball roling" as it were.

I'll admit that I'm not very good a explaining this stuff, and I would re-iterate that Jared Diamond's book Collapse is an amazing summary of decades of research into how and why societies failed and succeeded. It gives details on what befell those societies that did fail, what features stood out in similar societies that overcame their difficulties, and what these lessons can mean to us today so that we can avoid failing ourselves. I honestly wish that everyone would read his book at least once each year. And I must also add that, after watching Al Gore's presentation in An Inconvenient Truth, I think it is the greatest tragedy in recent memory that he did not win the Presidency in 2000.

Enough ranting from me.

[turnwrite]

Were our revolutionary fore-bearers standing around with their hands on their dicks mumbling worriedly about the ends justifying the means? If that we're the case, we'd still be pledging allegiance to the queen. If you believe in something, of course the ends justify the means, for better or for worse. Belief in nothing may prevent fundamentalism from creeping in, but it also prevents the genuinely good ideas from creeping in.

I was smiling as I typed that. It wasn't really a serious question. I am all for radically altering society, as I have already stated earlier in the thread, and harbor no wishy-washy inhibitions about what may happen in the meantime. As long as the end is good, the whole thing is good.