Another Lousy Apple Service/Retail Experience

[SDW2001]

Not over the phone this time, in person. The first experience was mine, the second happened to a lady next to me as I was in line.

1. I decided to exchange my Airport Express station, purchased at the Apple Store KOP in August. It has been failing, needing restarts, and generally being a POS. I've tried all the diagnostics and trouble shooting. It just drops out a lot and needs constant restarts. The other night I couldn't get it back up at all...I had to let it sit overnight.

So I pack it up with the manuals and take it to the store. I was told that I couldn't exhchange it without a technician looking at it, and the next appointment was three hours later. I asked for a manager. They simply would not exchange it out for me. I was told I could mail it in for service. Bullshit. It's less than 6 months old for christ's sake. Any other product I buy...anywhere...would be exchangable. Keep in mind, I didn't want a refund. I talked to the manager and she (who was about 14) told me there was nothing she could do. I told her the policy sucked and she told me "Well, you can certianly complain to Apple about it."

2. As I was waiting for the manager to come out, this lady came up next to me. She had an unopened iPod HiFi with a reciept taped to the box. She told them it ws a gift, unopened, and she wanted to return it.

They told her their return policy stated she had to return it by January 7th. They would not refund her, even with the original receipt. She was furious, as I think she should have been. What was ore amusing is watching the Apple Chick with the flat top and the nose ring tell her she couldn't do it. This was on sophisiticaed customer too....she was none too pleased.

Both of these policies are totally unreasonable and bad company policy. In my case, I can return a defective product anywhere else, especially somethat that cheap. You can't tell a customer he has to wait three hours to exchange something that's failed within six months ( except maybe a computer). As for the other lady, how the hell can you refuse to take a return on an unopened item with a receipt? If I was her I'd place the charge in dispute on my credit card.

I plan to write Apple and complain about both of these policies. In the meantime, Im gettin' the word out!

[Marvin]

The return policy for the 7th of January was well publicised so if someone bought it knowing this for a relative then that was their fault. Sure, the policy isn't the best and most stores allow 30 day returns but the policy was stated clearly. Plus, the fact that she is returning a gift is disgusting. I would never dream of returning a present. I would sell it on maybe but I certainly wouldn't have the audacity to take the receipt and take it back to the store. I got loads of gifts I didn't like but I kept them.

As for your problem, it is quite normal for a store to check if an item is broken before giving you a refund. How long would they last if people just brought stuff in no matter the condition and gave them a refund? Imagine me taking in a tattered macbook and saying I want a replacament. Is it fair to expect that they don't test it but give me a nice shiny new one? You had to wait because the engineer wasn't in the store.

You 'gettin' the word out' on a couple of minor issues isn't really going to tarnish a company who has one of the best customer service records in the industry.

[Flounder]

I agree with SDW, Apple has pretty draconian return policies.

[SpamSandwich]

Apple should have bent on this one. They don't need more pissed off customers, the rest of the world has MS to thank for that.

[addabox]

As far as the lady with the iPod, yeah, that's just stupid. No harm in bending the rules a little for good customer relations.

But regarding your Airport base station, it doesn't strike me as that surprising that they wouldn't just replace it outright, no questions asked. Apple must get a ton of walk-in "this is broken" stuff that prove to me nothing more than user error (not that I'm saying that this is true in your case, of course, Airport problems of this sort are notorious).

Having a tech vet replacement requests, while surely irritating when you know for a fact you've got a broken item, seems like the prudent thing for Apple to do.

I dunno, do other manufacturers do "no questions asked" swap outs during the warranty period?

[mrmister]

Yes, but THREE HOURS? That's ridiculous service. Period.

[addabox]

Yes, but THREE HOURS? That's ridiculous service. Period.

Well, it's not like he came in and had to sit around for three hours until they got to him-- it was the next available Genius Bar appointment.

Having said that, making everything go through the Genius Bar is, in fact, a pain in the ass. But I'm not sure, given the crowds at the Apple stores, if "first come first serve" would work any better. In that case you might really have to sit there for three hours or lose your place in line.

The larger problem is that so much of the Apple purchasing action and even more of Mac troubleshooting action get siphoned through the relatively thin on the ground Apple Stores.

[SDW2001]

The return policy for the 7th of January was well publicised so if someone bought it knowing this for a relative then that was their fault. Sure, the policy isn't the best and most stores allow 30 day returns but the policy was stated clearly. Plus, the fact that she is returning a gift is disgusting. I would never dream of returning a present. I would sell it on maybe but I certainly wouldn't have the audacity to take the receipt and take it back to the store. I got loads of gifts I didn't like but I kept them.

As for your problem, it is quite normal for a store to check if an item is broken before giving you a refund. How long would they last if people just brought stuff in no matter the condition and gave them a refund? Imagine me taking in a tattered macbook and saying I want a replacament. Is it fair to expect that they don't test it but give me a nice shiny new one? You had to wait because the engineer wasn't in the store.

You 'gettin' the word out' on a couple of minor issues isn't really going to tarnish a company who has one of the best customer service records in the industry.

1. It couldn't have been that well publicized. Even if it was, it's a ridiculous policy. It's unopened.

2. I didn't ask for a moral judgment from you on gift returning. It happens all the time. You don't know why she was returning it. Maybe she got two...who the hell knows.

3. It's not normal. Obviously you've never returned anything in your life. Also, let me ask you...is it reasonable to tell a customer there is a three hour wait? No. I've exchanged things before at many stores, and never had this kind of an issue. And if you read my post, whihc you didn't, I made the obvious exception for a computer. I realize it's not the same thing.

[SDW2001]

As far as the lady with the iPod, yeah, that's just stupid. No harm in bending the rules a little for good customer relations.

But regarding your Airport base station, it doesn't strike me as that surprising that they wouldn't just replace it outright, no questions asked. Apple must get a ton of walk-in "this is broken" stuff that prove to me nothing more than user error (not that I'm saying that this is true in your case, of course, Airport problems of this sort are notorious).

Having a tech vet replacement requests, while surely irritating when you know for a fact you've got a broken item, seems like the prudent thing for Apple to do.

I dunno, do other manufacturers do "no questions asked" swap outs during the warranty period?

In my experience, yes, other retail outlets do have a no questions asked policy, espeically when the customer tells them what's wrong with it and they just want an even exchange. Hell, I even did it with a $1500 TV one time after 6 months (though that was an exception to a rule). That's been my experience. I certainly was not asked to wait for 3 hours so they could check it out and then try to tell me it's "fine." How much do you want to bet that's what would have happened? ;)

[SDW2001]

Well, it's not like he came in and had to sit around for three hours until they got to him-- it was the next available Genius Bar appointment.

Having said that, making everything go through the Genius Bar is, in fact, a pain in the ass. But I'm not sure, given the crowds at the Apple stores, if "first come first serve" would work any better. In that case you might really have to sit there for three hours or lose your place in line.

The larger problem is that so much of the Apple purchasing action and even more of Mac troubleshooting action get siphoned through the relatively thin on the ground Apple Stores.

Well, it's the system that's the problem. On the same visit I tried to walk up to the genius bar and have someone look at my broken latch on my MB. They quoted me a three hour wait or gave me the option of coming back some other time, which I thought was fine.

However, it shouldn't be the same process for a return, even if they need to check it out for functionality...don't you agree?

[addabox]

Well, it's the system that's the problem. On the same visit I tried to walk up to the genius bar and have someone look at my broken latch on my MB. They quoted me a three hour wait or gave me the option of coming back some other time, which I thought was fine.

However, it shouldn't be the same process for a return, even if they need to check it out for functionality...don't you agree?

I absolutely do agree with that.

I think Apple has gotten carried away with using the Genius Bar as a kind of buffer/filter for everything. To add insult to injury, you have to make your appointment for the day at hand; if they're all full up today you have to try and get online early tomorrow to get a slot (unless, of course, you pay them more money for whatever that special club thing is). Here in the Bay Area the Genius Bars can easily be all booked up by 11am, which leaves you with nothing.

Now: let's all take our hats off and give a respectful moment of silence to this momentous occasion, wherein Addabox wholeheartedly agrees with SDW2001. It's a day that may never come again, but we must keep it in our hearts forever.

[AgNuke1707]

Well, don't forget, Apple retail stores aren't the only places where authorized service can be done. Case in point:

About 18 months ago, the neck on my iMac G4 crapped out and wouldn't stand up. It was out of warranty and I didn't have Apple Care, it took 5 days and almost 600 bucks to get that fixed at an Apple store. I get back to school, about four hours away, turn the computer on, and after about 3 hours my screen turns into a green hue. I called Apple and they told me to take it to a certain authorized rapir agent about 5 minutes from me and let them repair it under the repair warranty. It was in and out in less than 24 hours. I've also tried to take my iPod in to an Apple store, and I agree that the waits can be exceedingly long, but just realize, they're not the only show in town. Chances are an authorized repair agent might also carry the product you want to swap out for.

But I dunno why you're SO upset about them not doing a blind exchange for you. Under any kind of warranty for any electronics product I've ever owned and had problems with, the company wanted it to be checked in and checked by their tech people before they'd issue me a replacement.

[SDW2001]

I absolutely do agree with that.

I think Apple has gotten carried away with using the Genius Bar as a kind of buffer/filter for everything. To add insult to injury, you have to make your appointment for the day at hand; if they're all full up today you have to try and get online early tomorrow to get a slot (unless, of course, you pay them more money for whatever that special club thing is). Here in the Bay Area the Genius Bars can easily be all booked up by 11am, which leaves you with nothing.

Now: let's all take our hats off and give a respectful moment of silence to this momentous occasion, wherein Addabox wholeheartedly agrees with SDW2001. It's a day that may never come again, but we must keep it in our hearts forever.

I've submitted our moment of agreement for consideration as a National Holiday. :)

The thing where the genius bar fills up just happened to me a few minutes ago. It's a Tuesday for pete's sake. People like me are supposed to be at work. (whoops).

[SDW2001]

The update:

I took the AE and my Macbook in yesterday with a genius bar appointment of 5 p.m. They ordered an entire new bottom case so they could fix my MB latch. They tested the AE and surprise...it's fucntioning fine. We'll see...it has been better the last few days. The "genius" said it could be the modem changing channels or dropping out, which can fvck up the router. I kind of doubt that, but hey...could be. If it continues to be a pain in the ass I will likely boot it and get a third party solution.

One problem though...they need 48 hours to fix my MB once the part comes in. He told me replacing the bottom case will take 3-4 hours of labor. Good thing the little bastard is under warranty too...it would have cost alomost $200 otherwise!

[addabox]

Which reminds me, as long as we're going there:

I had a client whose two month old MacBook suffered unrecoverable disc failure. Bummer, but not that much on the machine, at that point. Still.... gee, a little disconcerting.

Apple genius did some fairly comprehensive diagnostics with the drive out of the case, once we declared it dead he said they would order a replacement drive (none in stock). A swap out wasn't in the cards. Really? Brand new laptop has its disc die in two months and I have to wait for a replacement drive? Hmmm...... still, I figured a couple of days to get the drive and I would be on my way.

I hung on to the laptop and awaited the call. 10 days later I called to see what the hell was going on, seeing as I could have gone to the local CompUSA and bought said drive the very day they ordered it. Almost impossible to get them to check, since their system is apparently full-proof and it would just be a waste of their time to make sure everything was on track, since it inevitably was. Finally claimed to take a look at the order logs, all is well, except for the ridiculously long delay in getting a freaking laptop drive to an Apple Store. These things in short supply, are they?

Three weeks after the initial order, the drive came in, 5 minutes for a genius to install and an hour to reinstall system software.

So a real mix of good diagnostics and eventual service with completely ridiculous delays and slim to no communication.

[deepdarkfunky]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but on all Apple receipts it is clearly stated there is a 14 day return policy, otherwise their limited warranty kicks in for pieces that need service... bringing an AirPort Express 6 months after you have purchased it and just expecting it to be exchanged for a brand new boxed version is simply foolish. You could have bypassed that entire situation if you just went to the Genius Bar and had the tech look at it, and they probably would have swapped it out for a replacement if it was malfunctioning.

[sammick]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but on all Apple receipts it is clearly stated there is a 14 day return policy, otherwise their limited warranty kicks in for pieces that need service... bringing an AirPort Express 6 months after you have purchased it and just expecting it to be exchanged for a brand new boxed version is simply foolish. You could have bypassed that entire situation if you just went to the Genius Bar and had the tech look at it, and they probably would have swapped it out for a replacement if it was malfunctioning.

All the more reason to buy what you can from Costco, Nordstrom, or Amazon

[MajorMatt]

$600 to fix an iMac G4 neck! Egads, I'd would have used wood dowels and super glue first!

[SDW2001]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but on all Apple receipts it is clearly stated there is a 14 day return policy, otherwise their limited warranty kicks in for pieces that need service... bringing an AirPort Express 6 months after you have purchased it and just expecting it to be exchanged for a brand new boxed version is simply foolish. You could have bypassed that entire situation if you just went to the Genius Bar and had the tech look at it, and they probably would have swapped it out for a replacement if it was malfunctioning.

1. A 14 day return policy for an unopened, non-computer item is totally unreasonable. The lady had a receipt. Whatever their policy is, it's not consistent with other retailers.

2. Again, that's not consistent with other retailers. I guarantee you I could return just about anything in six months, especially for even exchange. Hell, I did it with a one year old power drill...no receipt and no box! I got store credit for that one. Apple's policy is not in line with retailers that like to keep their customer's business.

Secondly, are you claiming that it's reasonable to tell me it's a three hour wait for them to check it out?

Now, and update: I had them check it out and guess what? It was "fine." Right. The only fix I can find is to change from WPA2 to WEP security. They shoudl take it back...that's what a decent retailer would do for an unhappy customer. Apple is arrogant ( I know, I've dealt with them for many years). They know they have a following not unlike Jesus Christ. Ergo, they don't care.

[SDW2001]

$600 to fix an iMac G4 neck! Egads, I'd would have used wood dowels and super glue first!


That's because they have "tiered" repairs. Level 1 is $150 or whatever and then it goes up to like $600 or even higher. Stupid system, but I bet it's profitable.

[deepdarkfunky]

1. A 14 day return policy for an unopened, non-computer item is totally unreasonable. The lady had a receipt. Whatever their policy is, it's not consistent with other retailers.

2. Again, that's not consistent with other retailers. I guarantee you I could return just about anything in six months, especially for even exchange. Hell, I did it with a one year old power drill...no receipt and no box! I got store credit for that one. Apple's policy is not in line with retailers that like to keep their customer's business.

Secondly, are you claiming that it's reasonable to tell me it's a three hour wait for them to check it out?

Now, and update: I had them check it out and guess what? It was "fine." Right. The only fix I can find is to change from WPA2 to WEP security. They shoudl take it back...that's what a decent retailer would do for an unhappy customer. Apple is arrogant ( I know, I've dealt with them for many years). They know they have a following not unlike Jesus Christ. Ergo, they don't care.

1. Your mileage may vary.

2. So don't buy through Apple then.

3. I am claiming that if you made an appointment to see the tech, and if it was a bad unit they would have swapped it out on the spot. It's not like they are going to drop everything they are doing and whomever they are helping just because you deem it unreasonable to wait 3 hours for your appointment. That's why they have the queue in the first place. :\

[SDW2001]

1. Your mileage may vary.

2. So don't buy through Apple then.

3. I am claiming that if you made an appointment to see the tech, and if it was a bad unit they would have swapped it out on the spot. It's not like they are going to drop everything they are doing and whomever they are helping just because you deem it unreasonable to wait 3 hours for your appointment. That's why they have the queue in the first place. :\


Frankly, you don't understand your own point, made in #2 above. You're demonstrating the very same attitude Apple has: Arrgoance. If you don't like our policies, go somewhere else. Well guess what, maybe I'll do just that.

Do you find a three hour wait for an exchange unreasonable?

[deepdarkfunky]

Frankly, you don't understand your own point, made in #2 above. You're demonstrating the very same attitude Apple has: Arrgoance. If you don't like our policies, go somewhere else. Well guess what, maybe I'll do just that.

Do you find a three hour wait for an exchange unreasonable?

And how exactly am I not understanding it? You are the one that has such a problem with Apple's return policy... and there are many options available to you as a consumer to buy Apple products not just from Apple. If having my own opinion on something makes me arrogant, then so be it... I'd rather be arrogant than whining over why I can't return an opened item 6 months after I purchased it.

[SDW2001]

And how exactly am I not understanding it? You are the one that has such a problem with Apple's return policy... and there are many options available to you as a consumer to buy Apple products not just from Apple. If having my own opinion on something makes me arrogant, then so be it... I'd rather be arrogant than whining over why I can't return an opened item 6 months after I purchased it.

It's like talking to a wall. Of course you are free to have your opinion. But for Apple, it potentially costs them a customer at their retail store. What you're essentially saying is they shouldn't care. That's not the way I learned about things. I'm a strong believer in the old adage, "the customer is always right." In Apple Land though, it's Apple is Always Right.

You still haven't answered my question. You apparently feel that a three hour wait to have a potentially defective product looked is entirely reasonable.

Lastly, I don't know where you've been shopping, but most retailers will at least do an exchange on an item if the customer says its defective. You're acting like that's unreasonable and asking what else I should expect. I'm just telling you what most retailers would do. You're really basing your opinion not on the market and the conduct of other companies, but your own personal feelings. To you, Apple is right. You don't know why, you just know that in your mind it's a reasonable policy. That's because you're obviously an Apple Apologist.

[Celemourn]

As for the other lady, how the hell can you refuse to take a return on an unopened item with a receipt? If I was her I'd place the charge in dispute on my credit card.


2. I didn't ask for a moral judgment from you on gift returning


Make a moral judgment, expect a moral judgement in return.

[SDW2001]

Make a moral judgment, expect a moral judgement in return.

That makes no sense because I wasn't doing so. It's good business or bad business. It's keeping the customer happy or feeing your RDF and image will do that, regardless of your return policies.

[Celemourn]

That makes no sense because I wasn't doing so. It's good business or bad business. It's keeping the customer happy or feeing your RDF and image will do that, regardless of your return policies.

Originally Posted by SDW2001
As for the other lady, how the hell can you refuse to take a return on an unopened item with a receipt? If I was her I'd place the charge in dispute on my credit card.


This statement implies the moral judgement that refusing to accept the return of an unopened package is inherently bad. The judgement comes from the assumptions the statement is based on.

Casting opinion based on your own morals (i.e. refusing to accept the return is stupid) upon the fact (i.e. the return was refused) is, in these forums, usually taken to be an open invitation for someone to contradict you on the basis of their own morals.

Doesn't matter that I agree with you that the return aught to have been accepted.

So maybe we're interpreting the phrase, "moral judgement" differently.

[SDW2001]

This statement implies the moral judgement that refusing to accept the return of an unopened package is inherently bad. The judgement comes from the assumptions the statement is based on.

Casting opinion based on your own morals (i.e. refusing to accept the return is stupid) upon the fact (i.e. the return was refused) is, in these forums, usually taken to be an open invitation for someone to contradict you on the basis of their own morals.

Doesn't matter that I agree with you that the return aught to have been accepted.

So maybe we're interpreting the phrase, "moral judgement" differently.

Dude...you don't need to psychoanalyze each post. Let me make it simple for you:

1. Apple's return policy is not in line with many other retailers.

2. Apple does not feel it needs to make its customers happy in this area as much as other retailers.

3. This potentially costs Apple customers.

Yes, I feel it's stupid and just plain wrong in terms of policy. But that's besides the point.

[Celemourn]

Dude...you don't need to psychoanalyze each post. Let me make it simple for you:

1. Apple's return policy is not in line with many other retailers.

2. Apple does not feel it needs to make its customers happy in this area as much as other retailers.

3. This potentially costs Apple customers.

Yes, I feel it's stupid and just plain wrong in terms of policy. But that's besides the point.

But I enjoy psychoanalyzing! What kind of psycho would I be if I didn't? :D **EDIT** (Actually, I only do that to the interesting posts.)

1. From my experience, probably true.

2. This is an assumption. This assigns an attitude to Apple which you have assumed that they have, based on your observations. Still an assumption.

3. I agree. Especially with the way you worded it.

My point was that one of your first statements was indeed (or at least conveyed) a moral judgment, and that it is rather silly to be surprised and resentful when someone responds in the same way. That's what people tend to do. We mirror each other (to lesser or greater extent). It's a very effective communication tool if used properly.

Also, I should say explicitly, I haven't any issue with the content of your message. Just the form in which it was delivered.