Apple, Cingular each claim victory, say more iPhones in queue

[AppleInsider]

Apple, Inc. and iPhone partner Cingular last week engaged in a brief war of words over which company forced the other to change its business model, but nevertheless have both promised to collaborate on many more Apple-branded cellphones in the future.

While creating an impression of harmony on the surface, Apple and Cingular executives fueled a minor spat following the launch of iPhone last Tuesday, hinting that a power struggle ensued before the two came to terms on the project.

Igniting the controversy was Apple chief executive Steve Jobs, who told TIME editor Lev Grossman that he had earned "special treatment" from Cingular, forcing a change in the cellular service provider's voicemail system to allow for iPhone's random-access voice message interface. In the same interview, Apple's iPod division headman Tony Fadell added that Cingular "broke all [its] typical process rules" to implement Apple's requests.

Jobs also claimed to have ducked around the arrogance prevalent amongst carriers, which regularly include proprietary applications or force feature changes upon users in order to protect their services. "There's some hubris, where they think they know better," Jobs said. "They dictate what's on the phone. That just wouldn't work for us."

The comments from Jobs triggered a surprisingly sharp rebuttal from Cingular national distribution president Glenn Lurie, who flatly denied that any concessions were made and implied that Jobs' assertions were little more than posturing. "I'm not sure we gave anything," Lurie stated. "I think they bent a lot."

Lurie similarly drew attention to the necessarily exclusive multi-year contract Apple signed with the American cell service that gives iPhone customers the "luxury" of requiring a Cingular subscription. Apple, he added, also agreed to help stop the "bad guys" who would unofficially unlock the iPhone or its SIM card for use on competing networks.

In spite of the apparent rift between the two companies, the Cingular exec was quick to make amends and hinted that the depth of the Apple-Cingular partnership would become clear soon. Several new Apple-branded phones may be "coming out very quickly," he said.

That allusion may help address complaints that iPhone's current limitation to EDGE mobile broadband would curb its appeal in the face of much faster HSDPA (or 3G) access, which Cingular already offers in a few key cities and through rival smartphones such as Samsung's BlackJack.

Jobs himself was already pointing towards future models in his keynote speech at Macworld San Francisco. He mentioned in passing that the company's choice of GSM network support via EDGE would allow it to produce a 3G wireless phone and "many other amazing things" in the near future.[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2400)

[SpamSandwich]

Well... that clarifies everything... :D

[merle]

So Cingular is claiming the innovation in this partnership? Wow. Their last innovation was a camera in a phone. And they didn't see the advantage to the user to have random access to messages?

The cell companies, and the land line phones, and the cable companies, (and the oil and fast food and others) only 'innovate' if they can put some immediate bucks in their pocket. The major innovation of the cell companies is in their creative mergers and takeovers, and the spelling of their names.

Thank god the consumer electronics companies (and not just Apple) are innovating or the whole American economy would be in the toilet.

[merle]

Wasn't there a law passed recently that says that cell phone companies have to enable the sim chips (is that the right term) in phones to be used in competitor's networks? If that is so, the restriction with Cingular is based on the unique GSM network that Cingular has in the US.

[BlackSummerNight]

I didn't know Cingular made cell phones at all. And do you think Apple is doing all this "innovation" out the kindness of their hearts. They are just as guilty as wanting to fill their pockets as the next company, as they should, they are in business to make money. You can group Apple, Cingular, Walmart, Microsoft,... all togther. ;)
So Cingular is claiming the innovation in this partnership? Wow. Their last innovation was a camera in a phone. And they didn't see the advantage to the user to have random access to messages?

The cell companies, and the land line phones, and the cable companies, (and the oil and fast food and others) only 'innovate' if they can put some immediate bucks in their pocket. The major innovation of the cell companies is in their creative mergers and takeovers, and the spelling of their names.

Thank god the consumer electronics companies (and not just Apple) are innovating or the whole American economy would be in the toilet.

[BlackSummerNight]

Yeah, the law passed a few months back and is good for three years. I'm also wonder how Apple and Cingular plan on breaking the law and get around people unlocking their phones. Thing is, I have a MS smartphone with Cingular, and it is unlocked. I wonder why they want to lock this phone, I mean you have to sign a 2 year contract to get it, so you're stuck with them.
Wasn't there a law passed recently that says that cell phone companies have to enable the sim chips (is that the right term) in phones to be used in competitor's networks? If that is so, the restriction with Cingular is based on the unique GSM network that Cingular has in the US.

[rtdunham]

Igniting the controversy was Apple chief executive Steve Jobs...

maybe that accounts for the notably flat, unimpressive presentation by cingular's top guy during the keynote: maybe he was just pissed at what he'd heard, and was choosing his words carefully.

[ChevalierMalFet]

The result of any good negotiation is give and take by bother parties--the fact that Lurie was unable to accept the idea that they gave any ground speaks volumes about his character. Granted, it's lost in the din caused by Cingular as a whole, but at least we know he's a team player.

[ifiredmyboss.com]

There will be unlocked phones available the day they ship. For sure they will be available once they hit Europe. I don't know how but all the cool phones always end up available in the grey market.

[sunilraman]

...Several new Apple-branded phones may be "coming out very quickly," he said...That allusion may help address complaints that iPhone's current limitation to EDGE mobile broadband would curb its appeal in the face of much faster HSDPA (or 3G) access...

Yeah, it is worthwhile refreshing ourselves about EDGE (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Data_Rates_for_GSM_Evolution)

Enhanced Data rates for GSM Evolution (EDGE) or Enhanced GPRS (EGPRS), is a digital mobile phone technology that allows for increased data transmission rate and improved data transmission reliability. It is generally classified as a 2.75G network technology. EDGE has been introduced into GSM networks around the world since 2003, initially in North America.

EDGE/EGPRS is implemented as a bolt-on enhancement to 2G and 2.5G GSM and GPRS networks, making it easier for existing GSM carriers to upgrade to it... Whether EDGE is 2G or 3G depends on implementation. While Class 3 and below EDGE devices clearly are not 3G, class 4 and above devices perform at a higher bandwidth than other technologies conventionally considered as 3G (such as 1xRTT). Because of the variability, EDGE is generally classified as 2.75G network technology.

[sunilraman]

There will be unlocked phones available the day they ship. For sure they will be available once they hit Europe. I don't know how but all the cool phones always end up available in the grey market.

Yup, we should expect hacks to get unlocked grey exports around the world. Well, not grey, but essentially the unlocked iPhone black market shipping to Europe, Australia, Asia, etc. etc.

The June/July 2007 model though should take a few months to crack, and by the time the unlocked phones are out and about they'll be available globally around the start of 2008.

[sunilraman]

Essentially, there is a 6-month "cushion" given to Cingular contracts and mad sales of iPhones (and hence Cingular contracts)... Estimated full-unlock-hacking should be complete and in the wild in about 3-5months, depending on how nuts Apple goes with locking the iPhone. Any complete unlock-hack less than 2 months would be a major embarrassment to Apple AND Cingular.

Region-Locking may be another weird thing going on with iPhones at the start of 2008, whereby somehow it might prevent, say, iPhone unlocked sold in Europe being brought back to the US and used with any carrier.

The complication is the "random-access" voicemail - which it may "force" onto European or Asian or other carriers... Some very interesting developments ahead. If we look at the move of Apple from the 1st growth engine (Macs) to the 2nd growth engine (iPods) clearly there is a movement to a larger market base. Same thing in the case of 3rd growth engine from iPods to Mobile Phones. A sliver of the mobile phone market would be huge revenue and profit growth for Apple and AAPL stock.

The first 30 years was just the beginning. :smokey: :D

[TednDi]

If the Cingular partnership/locked thing looks like a failure, Apple will pull a Moto and blame EVERYTHING on Cingular then go ahead and sell the phone unlocked and make huge $$!!

Apple isn't afraid of lawsuits. He will just go out and sic the iTourneys on them.

;)

woot 1500 posts!!

[ricksbrain]

Dancing with the devil. Neither wants to appear the lesser. We get to wait and see who is.

My hope? That for once, the hardware/software combo shines so much that people see and want the added potential an Apple approach can bring.

The iPhone isn't directly competing with business-oriented phones. It is pressing up against them pretty strongly, though. This is going to drive the market forward. Consumers use "smart" phones while hopefully some geniuses are in the works.

What if iPhone isn't the best that's coming? If iPhone is consumer oriented, are there business-works coming?

[alexluft]

Dancing with the devil. Neither wants to appear the lesser. We get to wait and see who is.

My hope? That for once, the hardware/software combo shines so much that people see and want the added potential an Apple approach can bring.

The iPhone isn't directly competing with business-oriented phones. It is pressing up against them pretty strongly, though. This is going to drive the market forward. Consumers use "smart" phones while hopefully some geniuses are in the works.

What if iPhone isn't the best that's coming? If iPhone is consumer oriented, are there business-works coming?

Yea possibly; at least I hope so 8) . But what would Apple be able to do with a business-oriented smartphone?

1) Push email through exchange, etc. Ok

2) word, excel, ppt? I don't know... These apps are very lowsy on the Windows Mobile phones and Apple needs to work with the Mac BU in order to get it out so it might take a very long while (seeing as to how Office for Mac 2008 is still long away development-wise).

So where else can they expand on the business-centric iPhone?

[Ireland]

junior... junior... junior... junior... junior... iPhone JUNIOR!!!!!

Text, calls, music, calculator, calander, contacts, settings. That's all I want.
Oh.. and a $299 price tag and a small sleek-looking form factor with touchscreen like this one;
(price would probably be closer to $349, but I'd pay it)


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/298236922_658a99ecab_o.jpg

[Frank777]

The phone biz is extremely competitive and Nokia, RIM and Motorola have the dollars to compete.

And Palm is fighting for their very life, which can be a powerful motivator.

While Apple probably has patented every aspect of their multi-touch experience, I'm not sure that the major manufacturers won't be able to come close to it.

This isn't like Creative and Samsung trying to copy the scroll wheel. The above named companies can do amazing things with design when pushed.

[Ireland]

The phone biz is extremely competitive and Nokia, RIM and Motorola have the dollars to compete.

The same could be said about Windows, in that Microsoft has the mula to destroy Apple with regards to it's OS's looks and ease-of-use, but it's not that simple.

[Ireland]

While Apple probably has patented every aspect of their multi-touch experience, I'm not sure that the major manufacturers won't be able to come close to it.

The iPhone runs on a sub-set of Mac OS X, a relies heavily on Core Animation to display powerful animations without choking or bloatifying in the process. That's not somthing competitors can whip up in 6 months.

[Flounder]

maybe that accounts for the notably flat, unimpressive presentation by cingular's top guy during the keynote: maybe he was just pissed at what he'd heard, and was choosing his words carefully.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he was just a crappy public speaker reading a speech that someone else wrote off a piece of paper.

[Gyroscope]

Yup, we should expect hacks to get unlocked grey exports around the world. Well, not grey, but essentially the unlocked iPhone black market shipping to Europe, Australia, Asia, etc. etc.

Yeah, they won't be clearly grey, that kind of hacked phone is generally classified as 'intermediate gray'. :D

[melgross]

Yeah, they won't be clearly grey, that kind of hacked phone is generally classified as 'intermediate gray'. :D

Pinstripe.

[melgross]

As far as unlocking goes, I can't see Apple and Cingular simply flouting the law. It's possible that Cingular pushed the responsibility ontyo Apple. At least that's what it sounds like from what has been said.

There must be some other way.

In regard to the 2 year contract, that shouldn't be a hindrance. You can get out of contracts by paying a fee, often pro rated. The company you are moving to will sometimes even pay the fee for you.

I would imagine that T-Mobile might be willing.

But, don't forget that the random access voice mail is a work that requires BOTH the iPhone and Cingular. It won't work anywhere else. At least, not now. After the multiyear deal is over, it should be interesting.

I'm wondering what that deal allows in Europe and Asia. Is it possible that, as Cingular doesn't compete there, the software can be licensed to carriers in those regions? Would Cingular get royalties from that? Would other carriers be willing to pay, if they were asked? If they don't pay, how can that work there?

Is T-Mobile in the USA screwed?

[sunilraman]

As far as unlocking goes, I can't see Apple and Cingular simply flouting the law. It's possible that Cingular pushed the responsibility ontyo Apple. At least that's what it sounds like from what has been said.

There must be some other way.

In regard to the 2 year contract, that shouldn't be a hindrance. You can get out of contracts by paying a fee, often pro rated. The company you are moving to will sometimes even pay the fee for you.

I would imagine that T-Mobile might be willing.

But, don't forget that the random access voice mail is a work that requires BOTH the iPhone and Cingular. It won't work anywhere else. At least, not now. After the multiyear deal is over, it should be interesting.

I'm wondering what that deal allows in Europe and Asia. Is it possible that, as Cingular doesn't compete there, the software can be licensed to carriers in those regions? Would Cingular get royalties from that? Would other carriers be willing to pay, if they were asked? If they don't pay, how can that work there?

Is T-Mobile in the USA screwed?

Hey... The 2 year contract will be somewhat of a hindrance because (as I dreadfully had to experience), there is still a huge payout fee even if it is pro-rata'd somewhat. It *is* interesting that in the US other carriers will pay this out for you, boy that's pretty cutthroat. I think T-Mobile or others would be sued to hell and back in the US if they did it with the iPhone.

In Europe and Asia and Australia, there are just too many carriers to deal with, to make a deal, so to speak. Apple will just sell full unlocked outright purchase. Finagling a deal with each carrier in different countries just for features like random-access voicemail, seems a lot of effort and resources for Apple to be involved in.

[doemel]

This is good! Why is this good? If they already fight now Apple might open up th iPhone to other carriers rather sooner than later. More choice = lower price. Well not always, but you know what I mean. You go Apple, slap that bi*ch. Just about each and every carrier deserves to be spanked well for their business models. Arrogant money grabbing bi*ches.

[melgross]

Hey... The 2 year contract will be somewhat of a hindrance because (as I dreadfully had to experience), there is still a huge payout fee even if it is pro-rata'd somewhat. It *is* interesting that in the US other carriers will pay this out for you, boy that's pretty cutthroat. I think T-Mobile or others would be sued to hell and back in the US if they did it with the iPhone.

In Europe and Asia and Australia, there are just too many carriers to deal with, to make a deal, so to speak. Apple will just sell full unlocked outright purchase. Finagling a deal with each carrier in different countries just for features like random-access voicemail, seems a lot of effort and resources for Apple to be involved in.

Too many carriers is right.

See this take. The guy is supposed to be an expert on the phone industry. He does make some interesting points which look valid.

It's a long article to read—even for you!

http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2007/01/handicapping_th.html

[GregAlexander]

Finagling a deal with each carrier in different countries just for features like random-access voicemail, seems a lot of effort and resources for Apple to be involved in.
I hope that Apple has made an open system for random-access voicemail. Any carrier should be able to implement it, I've wanted it for years. With MMS, it's just a multimedia message sent to your phone.

Why have 3 different systems for a missed call?
1) You have missed a call from X
2) Message from messagebank, 1 message waiting
3) Call messagebank, listen, press callback if you want.
A single message would do nicely and Nokia/Motorola should be able to handle it relatively easily.

[GregAlexander]

Yea possibly; at least I hope so 8) . But what would Apple be able to do with a business-oriented smartphone?

1) Push email through exchange, etc. Ok
2) word, excel, ppt? I don't know... These apps are very lowsy on the Windows Mobile phones and Apple needs to work with the Mac BU in order to get it out so it might take a very long while (seeing as to how Office for Mac 2008 is still long away development-wise).
Perhaps the rumours of iWorks integration with the phone are true.

I've always wondered why an email server couldn't automatically open an attached word document, convert to pdf, and THEN send it to me.

So where else can they expand on the business-centric iPhone?
I think the main thing is allowing businesses to have their own applications. Perhaps the OS is too unprotected to allow this.

The problem with a closed solution is that you either do EVERYTHING, or you have to open it up to others. Apple doesn't have the business collaboration smarts. Knowledge sharing and workflow apps could use a re-invention but I think it's a bit beyond Apple to do it all.

[sunilraman]

I hope that Apple has made an open system for random-access voicemail. Any carrier should be able to implement it, I've wanted it for years. With MMS, it's just a multimedia message sent to your phone.

Why have 3 different systems for a missed call?
1) You have missed a call from X
2) Message from messagebank, 1 message waiting
3) Call messagebank, listen, press callback if you want.
A single message would do nicely and Nokia/Motorola should be able to handle it relatively easily.

Hardmac.com is reporting that "The Battle for Europe" has begun:

The Battle for the iPhone Has Started in Europe - Eric - 13:43:43 - Comments

Source : The Times, UK
The iPhone is barely 3 days old, and already mobile phone operators in Europe are scrambling to get the coveted "exclusive deal" with Apple. The article from The Times in the UK goes on and cites several operators reputedly negotiating with Apple; among them O2, Vodafone, Telefónica, Orange and T-Mobile are all contenders for the contract.

The iPhone is again reported not 3G-compatible in its current status, but it remains still unclear if the delayed introduction in Europe and Japan is only due to distribution rights negotiations or rather required by some technical/hardware upgrades to make it more suited for more advanced networks technologies in Europe and Japan. But with the moderate adoption of 3Gs in most European countries over the last year, one can imagine that Apple might not bother preparing a special version for Europe, in Japan it will be another story .

Now, how many of us will consider changing the mobile phone subscription and/or carrier only based on the availability of the iPhone? Let us know in the dedicated topic on our forum: here.

[sunilraman]

See this take. The guy is supposed to be an expert on the phone industry. He does make some interesting points which look valid.
It's a long article to read—even for you!
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2007/01/handicapping_th.html


Heh. Hella long article. It's late now, and I'm watching (kind) the Australian Open Tennis, so... Anyways 8)

Unfortunately adding 3G to the phone involves a complete additional radio unit, increasing weight, complexity, reducing battery life etc. So this is not an easy upgrade to the next iPhone. Adding 3G is a very complex and costly step, and it also requires "double" the amount of testing at all network operators before it is accepted into the supported handset portfolios of any operator. This may be part of the reason why Apple launches in America first (being the laggard market in mobile telecoms and in 3G) and Europe next, with Asia last (as South Korea and Japan are the industry leaders especially for handsets, mobile internet and music on mobile, as well as 3G)


I would say some of this is spot-on. GSM-EDGE is perfect as a launching pad. Europe then Asia would mean working out a 2.xG to 3G deal. However I don't think adding 3G is that big a mess, Apple has what, a FRICKIN' WHOLE YEAR to up the phone to 3G.


The camera is perhaps the most disappointing feature at only 2 megapixels. That may be borderline ok for January 2007 - but many new cameraphones are now in the 3 to 5 megapixel range, and by June 2007 when this is to hit the market, 2 megapixels may well be very "last year". But it is also something Apple might be able to upgrade rather quickly to at least 3 megapixels.

Exactly. He says it himself. Apple may very well ship with 3megapixels+ :: The iPhone as a digital camera. Leave your digicams (except for SLRdigitals) at home.


The writer is very informed on the various markets. The article is very heavily oriented towards marketshare-by-country.

Remember, Apple does not operate in this fashion. They set a units-sold-per-quarter/year with each unit having a "at the end of the day all stuff calculated" 20-30% profit margin.

Let's randomly set $550 USD as the average selling price. A 20% margin would mean that 20% of that is profit (am I right here?) which is $110 USD PER UNIT.

Steve's target for 2007 (really just 2nd half of 2007) is 10 million units. 10,000,000 x 110 = 1100 million = 1.1 billion profit. :wow: Quarterly profit at the moment is what, 200-500 million USD...

So upon launch of iPhone in USA is 5 million units per quarter, with a heavier weight of sales coming in the Christmas quarter (those smart Apple people, they've got a "must-have-if-you-can-afford-it" gadget to covet for during Christmas frenzy...)

"Steve Jobs has such confidence in the new iPhone that he has said he wants to sell over 10 million of them by 2008...10 million iPhones in less than 6 months" (from some other article)



Back to the article...

If we assign American smartphone users evenly across the operators, and therefore Cingular would have the same proportion of smartphone users as their overall marketshare (not a fair assumption, as for example Nextel and Verizon are very strong in the corporate customer segments where the majority of smartphones are sold), then out of the 9 million smartphones sold in America next year, Cingular has only 2.4 million. OUCH !!!

To reach its target, Apple would have to convince every Cingular smartphone user (probably many very loyal to their Motorolas, Nokias, SonyEricssons etc) to switch to the iPhone. This means all Blackberry users in its network with corporate e-mail clients therefore as well; and then capture AS MANY new customers by stealing them from the rival networks. Cannot be done. Is totally beyond all reason. If the GSM standard based smartphone market in America is about 4.3 million, Apple cannot capture all of that. Not in one year, not even with a miracle phone. And the iPhone is far from a miracle phone.

MUSICPHONES...But all is not lost for Apple in America. While the analysts talk about the smartphone market, I would rather look at the musicphone market. That is much larger. It includes many cheaper musicphones, but for many considering a mid-range musicphone, when the iPhone becomes available, it will well be a worthwhile alternative, even if on the high end of what that customer would be willing to pay.

How big? Gartner tells us they sold 309 million musicphones in 2006 (vs about 40-42 million iPods. Can you guess the theme of my upcoming iPod vs musicphone review next week when Apple releases official numbers for the Christmas quarter of iPod sales?). Musicphone sales rocketed in 2006, more than doubling. It is fair to assume, even at very conservative rates, that musicphone sales will reach 400 million units in 2007. This of course includes most of the 120 million smartphones mentioned above.

Now we are talking about a valid market opportunity for Apple. 10 million means only 2.5%, and that is quite do-able.

So back to America. If we again assume that the 7.5% of all musicphones are sold in America, it gives us a market of 30 million. If under half are on GSM, we're at 14 million, and out of those, if Apple wants 4.7 million - that means 33.5%. A tall order, but it can be done. Out of Cingular's own customers it can be done and not all need to be converted. With a bit of clever marketing - Cingular will want to use this as its competitive advantage in capturing churning customers - it can be a very potent tool to steal customers from the rival networks. Certainly knowing Apple, we will get a massive, exciting and creative launch campaign. Everybody will hear of the iPhone in America in June.

It's tricky slicing and dicing the numbers. Essentially Apple and Cingular need to get 5 million subscribers per quarter from people that want a video ipod, a sexyiPhone, slickPDAsmartphone, and/or all of those.

I think Apple has thought about the market segmentation long and hard, and the features we've seen will be upgraded to match the market competitors in 2nd half 2007.

An initial discussion looking only at "Smartphones on GSM" is grim but think about iPods and "MusicMobilePhones" and things really start to expand.

I personally think Apple in 2nd half 2007 will hit 12 million iPhone units sold which also equals 12 million subscribers from Cingular existing or churned from other carriers.

It's very interesting. Macs continue to gain momentum, iPods are well, you all know the story, and the iPhone is a "highest-end iPod" so it won't cannibalize sales of other iPods but at the same time it opens up a new market for Apple - the mobile phone/ smartphone/ musicphone/ etc. market.




This means real, long-term customer-service and relationship management with the carriers. Yes, one hundred of them in Europe, another 100 of them in Asia. Does Apple have an army of account managers to manage all of these? Do they have the distribution systems in place with DHL to ship the phones as these customers will then demand to fit their given launches, replacements, upgrade plans etc. Where can I have my Orange logo. Where can I have my Vodafone Live button, etc etc etc.

I think Apple is thinking very long and hard about global expansion. Global mobile phone market share is a much juicier target than just mp3 players. If Apple is locked into Cingular in a 2-year contract, that means their US growth is dependent largely on Cingular upgrade customers and churn from carriers.

The key follow-on in 2008 is Europe and Asia. Yes, so we are back to, there's a frickin' BOATLOAD of carriers. Apple is right now thinking long and hard, and as AppleInsider reported, hiring top-notch mobile platform engineers to look at 2008.



So there we have it: Apple's Goals for 2nd half 2007:
3.5 million Cingular iPhone USA subscribers July-Sep
6.5 million Cingular iPhone USA subscribers Oct-Dec

Apple's Goals for 2008:
5 million per quarter GLOBAL sales of iPhone.
Figure out the most efficient and effective way to launch, differentiate models and support iPhones in the major target mobile phone markets globally.

This is NEW for Apple. This is what it really means that the first 30 years were the beginning.

Macs rock. iPods rock harder. But it's baby stuff compared to what the iPhone will mean for revenues, profits approaching 1 billion USD per quarter possibly in 2008, and........ who knows.....

But Apple has their work cut out for them in 2007-2008 with 1. iPhone growth and 2. Maintaining wide integration across the whole range of Apple Inc. products and services.



By the way everyone, my MacBook 2.0ghz 2gb RAM fracking RAWKS THE HOUSE. Except when cores are 60% (both) or more loaded, fan spins to 6200rpm and it's wind-tunnel city. Almost equal to the fan noise of a standard Dell/ HP desktop PC. 1 dead pixel and 2 "pushed pixel" white-ish spots. Murphy's law. But overall, for AUD$1500, good frickin' deal. I'm using frickin' alot. Well, still in MacWorld ReHab, so I'll stop talking about my MacBook for now. Here at Rehab they limit my sessions to wean me down to a reasonable daily RDF dosage including using a OMFG finally 10.4.8 snappy Mac. And WinxP2pro flies on a 10gb-fixed-size Parallels virtual disk (build 1920 Parallels Desktop Mac). Only thing is Rosetta needs a good chunk of the 2gb to run well, so can't run Adobe-Macromedia concurrently with Parallels. But I could run Adobe-Macromedia in Windoze Parallels. But like, eww... I feel "dirty" now whenever I fire up WinXP in the MacBook, particularly next to OSX (I no need do BootCamping). Windows Vista runs quite alright, actually, as well, in Parallels, but it's like a hooker - all tarted up for instant sex appeal but when you look closer, hmm....

[sunilraman]

I'm starting to "get" what this whole iPhone thing is about. It's a bit annoying to me, because since a mid-end HandSpring PDA, and a diehard now SonyEricsson- just- do- what- a- phone- does- and- a- little- bit- more- that's- good- enough -for -me....... I am mostly a computer geek not a gadget geek.

But really, for Apple Inc. now, looking back at Macs and iPods, it's like the dinner rolls (small buns) that you munch on before the big-ass Peppered Steak main course of the iPhone.

It will take a bit of rethinking. Apple Inc. will transition in 2007-2008 into a "personal and connected digital experience" company, based on the strong fundamentals (and phenomenal flexibility to run on stuff from a G3PowerPC to a IntelOctoXeon to whatever-the-hell-iPhone-runs-on) of MacOSX.

Such a lame expression, huh, "personal+connected digital experience" -- but as we all know, the Apple experience is unique, attractive, and continues to gain ground.

It is just extremely important to keep in mind Apple is not about killing Microsoft, Nokia, Dell, or anything like that.

It is essentially expanding on the core vision (Steve Jobs, John Ives et al) while continually increasing quarterly profits.

Mainstream journalists, like they have for years, will try and pin Apple down as the "perennial underdog" but as a company and looking at the core vision and profits, well, Macs will be some sort of minority. But iPods are de facto mp3 players. Just keep in mind the iPhone in relation to all mobile phones in the world. It could be as big as the iPod. But let's start smooth, look how long it took (about 5 years?) for every kid in the Western world to have an iPod...

It'll be an interesting ride. Almost as interesting as figuring out what the frack to do with my life. Hey. Getting a 2nd-hand Core1Duo MacBook at a good price and with appropriate financing from myself + my parents + some government aid (bipolar disability) is a start... :wow:

[lfmorrison]

Wasn't there a law passed recently that says that cell phone companies have to enable the sim chips (is that the right term) in phones to be used in competitor's networks? If that is so, the restriction with Cingular is based on the unique GSM network that Cingular has in the US.

Technically, there was no new law passed.

This was a bureaucratic decision taken by the Library of Congress acting as administrators of the existing copyright laws including the DMCA. Under these laws, the LoC has the authority to define certain temporary exemptions to the interpretation of copyright if petitions are put forward and found to have merit.

In this specific case, the new regulation says that people who independently crack the "DRM-like technology" used to lock a cell phone to a single service provider are not breaking any laws in doing so.

Effectively, Cell network providers are still free to lock their phones, and they're under no obligation to give instructions for unlocking. However, individuals who come across the knowledge to unlock the phones from some other source are free to do so without fear of legal punishment.

[Macvault]

No matter how one looks at it, Apple allowed Cingular to have victory by giving into their God-foresaken service contracts and SHACKLING th iPhone to Cingular - a total un-Apple way of doing things with Apple products. It's such a shame, such a shame, absolutely sad. Steve Jobs and Apple have joined forces with the dark side. I was almost sick to my stomach when I saw Cingular CEO, Stan Sigman, up on stage rather than seeing Leopard or new Macs, etc. Stan was so drenched in ecstesy he had to use flash cards on stage to make his speach. Stan Sigman is bragging that he forced Apple to give into his Lock-in demands for the iPhone. What will be next? Maybe the next Mac Pro will require a 2 year Cingular contract. YUCK! I just don't beleive it. What a sad day in Mac/Apple history. So sad:( :( :( So mad :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[melgross]

I hope that Apple has made an open system for random-access voicemail. Any carrier should be able to implement it, I've wanted it for years. With MMS, it's just a multimedia message sent to your phone.

Why have 3 different systems for a missed call?
1) You have missed a call from X
2) Message from messagebank, 1 message waiting
3) Call messagebank, listen, press callback if you want.
A single message would do nicely and Nokia/Motorola should be able to handle it relatively easily.

The voice mail function requires that the network it's being retreived from work with the feature. It's not strictly an Apple product, nor could it be.

[melgross]

No matter how one looks at it, Apple allowed Cingular to have victory by giving into their God-foresaken service contracts and SHACKLING th iPhone to Cingular - a total un-Apple way of doing things with Apple products. It's such a shame, such a shame, absolutely sad. Steve Jobs and Apple have joined forces with the dark side. I was almost sick to my stomach when I saw Cingular CEO, Stan Sigman, up on stage rather than seeing Leopard or new Macs, etc. Stan was so drenched in ecstesy he had to use flash cards on stage to make his speach. Stan Sigman is bragging that he forced Apple to give into his Lock-in demands for the iPhone. What will be next? Maybe the next Mac Pro will require a 2 year Cingular contract. YUCK! I just don't beleive it. What a sad day in Mac/Apple history. So sad:( :( :( So mad :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is a bit of a hysterical post.

There is nothing new about this kind of deal. Apple does it many times.

In business, both sides negotiate to their best advantage. While Cingular isn't popular on tech sites, they still have the largest subscription numbers. Apple wanted a GSM phone. T-Mobile has half the numbers. That's not useful to Apple. The rest of the companies are useless.

It's simple math.

[franksargent]

This is a bit of a hysterical post.

There is nothing new about this kind of deal. Apple does it many times.

In business, both sides negotiate to their best advantage. While Cingular isn't popular on tech sites, they still have the largest subscription numbers. Apple wanted a GSM phone. T-Mobile has half the numbers. That's not useful to Apple. The rest of the companies are useless.

It's simple math.

I don't like cell phone companies any more than the next guy, but it's business as usual, it's SOP in the industry.

Only if the basic rulez are changed at the federal level would we see substantive changes in the cell phone industry. And given the industry, the current FCC, the current administration, the lobbyist/PAC's, somehow I don't see that happening.

[melgross]

I don't like cell phone companies any more than the next guy, but it's business as usual, it's SOP in the industry.

Only if the basic rulez are changed at the federal level would we see substantive changes in the cell phone industry. And given the industry, the current FCC, the current administration, the lobbyist/PAC's, somehow I don't see that happening.

It would be nice if the carriers were forced to be more open. Aegis is always razzing me on that.

At some point it will happen. As more of these companies go international we will see it.

This administration will be gone in less than two years. We'll see what happens then. We have to lobby our officials. If they think we don't care (most don't), then they will not care.

[Clive At Five]

Did'ja hear that??? 3G in one year! Oh wait... or was that 3GHz...

Something about this whole thing seems familiar...

-Clive

[auxio]

No matter how one looks at it, Apple allowed Cingular to have victory by giving into their God-foresaken service contracts and SHACKLING th iPhone to Cingular - a total un-Apple way of doing things with Apple products. It's such a shame, such a shame, absolutely sad. Steve Jobs and Apple have joined forces with the dark side. I was almost sick to my stomach when I saw Cingular CEO, Stan Sigman, up on stage rather than seeing Leopard or new Macs, etc. Stan was so drenched in ecstesy he had to use flash cards on stage to make his speach. Stan Sigman is bragging that he forced Apple to give into his Lock-in demands for the iPhone. What will be next? Maybe the next Mac Pro will require a 2 year Cingular contract. YUCK! I just don't beleive it. What a sad day in Mac/Apple history. So sad:( :( :( So mad :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:Think about it this way: Apple obviously isn't one of the first to market with a cellphone as they were with the personal computer. They don't have the luxury of creating and shaping the development of a market segment. Over the past 25 or so years, the cellphone market has developed into the type of market where you need to pair yourself with a service provider if you want to be successful.

Sure Apple could create an unlocked cellphone which isn't tied to any service provider and hope that the average customer will dig hard enough to find it, and then figure out how to get it working with a service provider, but that's a lot to hope for. Pairing with a service provider buys them a much higher profile, and also ease of use because the phone is set up to "just work". Which is what the average person who could care less about the technical possibilities of a completely open phone wants. They want to get their iPhone and be able to start calling, texting, emailing from the second they get it. And they wouldn't get that experience if the iPhone wasn't paired with a service provider.

For the people who do want to open up all the possibilities of the phone, I can guarantee that it will be hacked within a few months of it's release, and you'll be free to do what you like if you buy a hacked version of it (or have the technical knowhow to apply whatever firmware hacks exist).

I'm sure whatever "locks" Apple puts on the phone will be about as difficult to break as the DRM on iTunes music. They won't be putting too much effort into them since it's not really in their interest to do so (only in Cingular's interest). They'll likely put as much effort as is necessary to avoid a lawsuit over breach of contract with Cingular.

[franksargent]

I'm going to be very curious to see what the Cingular TOS are WRT the iPhone. What the penalty will be for breaking the 2-year contract. I broke a contract with them about 2 years ago and had to pay ~$200, so that I could get a cheaper plan elsewhere, it saved me money in the long run.

Is it a flat fee for all phones or do the more expensive phones carry a higher penalty?

[128pluspb100siduo230]

My 1st reaction was cingular is a bunch of idiots for making these statements. But I realize that if they've been forcing RIM & Palm, etc to take it in the rear all this time and along comes Jobs and he claims the world will be a better place because Apple has forced the carriers to their knees that they might be just a bit concerned about how their former "partners" will perceive this.

Apple has the balls to show a version 1 product that blows everyone away and claims that it was all made possible by Apple's redesigning the partners business practices. Cingular is bound to be scrambling to change the impression that Apple was given the store as they say. Can you imagine the class action lawsuits when RIM et al. claim their demise was due to the carriers unwillingness to implement new features.

No claim was made of by '08 as I heard Jobs say by the end of calendar '08. I was seeking it specifically to figure if the claim was fiscal which would have given Apple 12-13 months or calendar giving them 18-19 months with 2 xmas seasons and global rollout. 10 million in 2 qtrs with Cingular is beyond even Apple but 10 million worldwide will be made to look easy. I predict they will have at least 2 models (maybe 4) and sell at least 6 million units in the qtr ending Dec '08.

If usage plans make this available for 20-40 per month with unlimited usage it really is a whole new internet. Is this digital lifestyle 4.0. I think maybe so. Xmas '09 3rd gen 3.x G iPhone 128 gig flash mem, 5 meg pix on rear with 1 meg pix on front for vid chat., full GPS capibility, unlocked OS X, voip for global calling, voice to text and text to voice. iDigital so what if they have have to give up the moniker iPhone. While it would be nice to have as it will help the dolts grok that it is a tool that they have some familiarity with it really hardly describes its potential.

I'm so looking forward to the future.
Raven

[ecking]

Lurie similarly drew attention to the necessarily exclusive multi-year contract Apple signed with the American cell service that gives iPhone customers the "luxury" of requiring a Cingular subscription. Apple, he added, also agreed to help stop the "bad guys" who would unofficially unlock the iPhone or its SIM card for use on competing networks.

It's crap like that, that's starting to make the iPhone RDF wear off on me. I don't know if I'm as interested as I used to be.

[ecking]

Yup, we should expect hacks to get unlocked grey exports around the world. Well, not grey, but essentially the unlocked iPhone black market shipping to Europe, Australia, Asia, etc. etc.

The June/July 2007 model though should take a few months to crack, and by the time the unlocked phones are out and about they'll be available globally around the start of 2008.

Yeah until cingular forces apple to make black market ones not interface with itunes or something, everytime you connect your ipod it shows your serial and everything, it's probably not impossible to have it note when the connected phone is unregistered.

And black market ones won't have a warranty anyways, usually I wouldn't care but that makes me weary when it comes to iphone.

[Porchland]

Slightly off the subject, but if AT&T is going to rebrand (http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/01/12/cingular/index.php) Cingular, why didn't they take advantage of the Stevenote by announcing the transition a few days earlier?

And why don't the American Idol site (http://www.americanidol.com/mobile/) and Cingular's own site (http://www.cingular.com/home/) say anything about it?

Seems like wasted opportunities.

[GregAlexander]

The voice mail function requires that the network it's being retreived from work with the feature. It's not strictly an Apple product, nor could it be.

That's exactly my point, but doesn't answer my question. Of course the visual-voice-mail requires a change in how Cingular handles voicemail, as well as a specific implementation on the iPhone.

The point is that the new method of handling voicemail may be Apple-only. I hope, instead, that the visual-voice-mail is just receiving multimedia-messages (each of which contains the voicemail). I wondered years ago why the phone companies didn't do this - EVERY phone that handles MMS could handle this form of voicemail.

So my question... my wondering... was Cingular does this.

[elroth]

"Steve's target for 2007 (really just 2nd half of 2007) is 10 million units."

10 million units is his target for calendar year 2008. He didn't give a target for 2007.

[melgross]

That's exactly my point, but doesn't answer my question. Of course the visual-voice-mail requires a change in how Cingular handles voicemail, as well as a specific implementation on the iPhone.

The point is that the new method of handling voicemail may be Apple-only. I hope, instead, that the visual-voice-mail is just receiving multimedia-messages (each of which contains the voicemail). I wondered years ago why the phone companies didn't do this - EVERY phone that handles MMS could handle this form of voicemail.

So my question... my wondering... was Cingular does this.

Cingular had to rewrite their software. Whatever code they wrote belongs to them.

Does this mean that Apple doesn't own the concept? Maybe.

But someone else on another site said that a concept similar to this has already been done. Is it equivelant? I don't know. This is something we might be reading more about in the near future once things settle down.

[TBaggins]

Yeah, it is worthwhile refreshing ourselves about EDGE (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Data_Rates_for_GSM_Evolution)

Enhanced Data rates for GSM Evolution (EDGE) or Enhanced GPRS (EGPRS), is a digital mobile phone technology that allows for increased data transmission rate and improved data transmission reliability. It is generally classified as a 2.75G network technology. EDGE has been introduced into GSM networks around the world since 2003, initially in North America.

EDGE/EGPRS is implemented as a bolt-on enhancement to 2G and 2.5G GSM and GPRS networks, making it easier for existing GSM carriers to upgrade to it... Whether EDGE is 2G or 3G depends on implementation. While Class 3 and below EDGE devices clearly are not 3G, class 4 and above devices perform at a higher bandwidth than other technologies conventionally considered as 3G (such as 1xRTT). Because of the variability, EDGE is generally classified as 2.75G network technology.
Regardless of what wikipedia maintains, most folks just consider technologies like EDGE and 1xRTT to be 2.5G, i.e. cellular technologies that allow data speeds somewhere around or only moderately above dial-up speed. From PhoneScoop.com:

Although many EDGE phones and devices are theoretically capable of up to 236 Kbps, most EDGE networks are only configured to allow up to 135 Kbps, to conserve spectrum resources. Real-world data rates are usually lower than the maximum.

Cingular themselves also claim speeds for EDGE much slower than the theoretical maximum, on their own site:

The Cingular EDGE network is available in more than 13,000 cities and towns and in areas along 40,000 miles of highways. It provides average data speeds between 75-135Kbps.

Have yet to hear anyone around my friend's cell phone shoppe utter the term "2.75G". And if they did, we'd probably laugh. 8)

(oh, in case anyone's wondering, real-world 1xRTT data speeds are around 60-80 Kbps).

.

[melgross]

Regardless of what wikipedia maintains, most folks just consider technologies like EDGE and 1xRTT to be 2.5G, i.e. cellphone technologies that allow data speeds somewhere around or only moderately above dial-up speed.

Have yet to hear anyone around my friend's cell phone shoppe utter the term "2.75G". And if they did, we'd probably laugh. 8)

Lack of knowledge isn't understanding.

If the features are there in some versions, then it's up to you to know what they are before buying, and crying afterwards.

[TBaggins]

Lack of knowledge isn't understanding.

If the features are there in some versions, then it's up to you to know what they are before buying, and crying afterwards.
Well, duh. But let's not mistake EDGE to be something it isn't. It isn't really that fast, and it sure isn't 3G, though I've heard the term 'fake 3G' used in reference to it a fair amount. :\

Beyond that, I'm not really sure what you're on about?

.

[GregAlexander]

Cingular had to rewrite their software. Whatever code they wrote belongs to them.Of course they had to rewrite their voicemail system. And whatever they wrote is there's.

As a side note - my VoIP voicemail has 2 options on it. I can call in and listen to each message one after another, or each voicemail is simply emailed to me separately. It's great - I can just listen to my voicemails in whatever order I want, right in there with my email.0

Apple comes up with lots of innovative ideas. "visual voicemail" is not one of them... though I AM surprised the phone companies haven't bothered, I can only assume that no-one has forced them to evolve. I hope that Cingular and Apple are using existing mobile technologies for their voicemail (ie: a voicemail is sent using MMS, an existing mobile phone technology) rather than a brand new one. It will be much easier for GSM networks around the world to send MMS voice messages than to construct a proprietary Apple product.

[melgross]

Well, duh. But let's not mistake EDGE to be something it isn't. It isn't really that fast, and it sure isn't 3G, though I've heard the term 'fake 3G' used in reference to it a fair amount. :\

Beyond that, I'm not really sure what you're on about?

.

I'm on about your making a fuss about the numerical standards. What I'm saying simply is that your friends customers who don't understand them, and your lack of interest in thinking that people shouldn't bother because it's too complex, isn't a good reason for people not to try.

Yes, there are confusing numbers associated with this, but it's like software updates, you have to keep track of what is what. Not only does each company offer different speeds, but they upgrade their systems, and increase that speed. They then often call it something else entirely.

If you don't watch out, and end up with something you aren't happy with, that's your own fault.

I'm using the general "you" here. I'm not talking about you, since you do understand, as far as I can tell.

[melgross]

Of course they had to rewrite their voicemail system. And whatever they wrote is there's.

As a side note - my VoIP voicemail has 2 options on it. I can call in and listen to each message one after another, or each voicemail is simply emailed to me separately. It's great - I can just listen to my voicemails in whatever order I want, right in there with my email.0

Apple comes up with lots of innovative ideas. "visual voicemail" is not one of them... though I AM surprised the phone companies haven't bothered, I can only assume that no-one has forced them to evolve. I hope that Cingular and Apple are using existing mobile technologies for their voicemail (ie: a voicemail is sent using MMS, an existing mobile phone technology) rather than a brand new one. It will be much easier for GSM networks around the world to send MMS voice messages than to construct a proprietary Apple product.

Visual Voicemail is quite a bit simpler to use. You don't have to request any options at all, just select the one you want. It doesn't have to be used through email which seems to me to be more confusing, as it appears, from what you say, to be mixed in with those emails, even if it is flagged. Why would I want to have to go to email to listen to my messages? To totally different communications concepts.

[TBaggins]

I'm on about your making a fuss about the numerical standards. What I'm saying simply is that your friends customers who don't understand them, and your lack of interest in thinking that people shouldn't bother because it's too complex, isn't a good reason for people not to try.

Yes, there are confusing numbers associated with this, but it's like software updates, you have to keep track of what is what. Not only does each company offer different speeds, but they upgrade their systems, and increase that speed. They then often call it something else entirely.

If you don't watch out, and end up with something you aren't happy with, that's your own fault.

I'm using the general "you" here. I'm not talking about you, since you do understand, as far as I can tell.
I think you misunderstood. Basically, the backstory on this in the cellular world is that many people try to mislead the public on how advanced their technology is by trying to sell it as a higher 'G' than it really is.

For example, you'll occasionally run across someone who insists that 1xRTT or EDGE is a '3G' technology- usually a cell phone salesman trying to sell a phone that uses said technology. But really, 3G to most people means "broadband data speeds", and neither 1xRTT or EDGE truly provides that under real-world conditions. They're really '2.5G', though one can fuss and argue and use technicalities to say otherwise. But, as the Brits would say, that's just a bunch of bollocks.

Sorry to make a 'fuss' about it, but its something that my friend runs into every day, and I think its important that such technologies aren't misleadingly labelled. Far from thinking the common man shouldn't bother trying to understand the differences, I think they should be informed of them, which is what I did. Happy now, Melsy? ;)

.

[melgross]

I think you misunderstood. Basically, the backstory on this in the cellular world is that many people try to mislead the public on how advanced their technology is by trying to sell it as a higher 'G' than it really is.

For example, you'll occasionally run across someone who insists that 1xRTT or EDGE is a '3G' technology- usually a cell phone salesman trying to sell a phone that uses said technology. But really, 3G to most people means "broadband data speeds", and neither 1xRTT or EDGE truly provides that under real-world conditions. They're really '2.5G', though one can fuss and argue and use technicalities to say otherwise. But, as the Brits would say, that's just a bunch of bollocks.

Sorry to make a 'fuss' about it, but its something that my friend runs into every day, and I think its important that such technologies aren't misleadingly labelled. Far from thinking the common man shouldn't bother trying to understand the differences, I think they should be informed of them, which is what I did. Happy now, Melsy? ;)

.

Well, Bilbo, not really. The numbers, other than the official ones, which don't tell us much either, are generally just a way of giving people an idea as to how close the product is to the next higher, or lower, standard, as far as both speed, and feature set goes. It can help to have people understand, if something can be said to be, say, 50% or 75% between the old standard and the new one. So that would translate to 2.50 or 2.75.

It's not entirely accurate, but it gives people an idea.

I see this used in articles about the field all of the time. It's the way we think. It works best for people who don't understand, or don't want to understand, the actual technical specs.

You are apparently one of those who thinks everyone is out to deceive. I'm not.

[TBaggins]

Sorry, double post.

[TBaggins]

Well, Bilbo, not really. The numbers, other than the official ones, which don't tell us much either, are generally just a way of giving people an idea as to how close the product is to the next higher, or lower, standard, as far as both speed, and feature set goes. It can help to have people understand, if something can be said to be, say, 50% or 75% between the old standard and the new one. So that would translate to 2.50 or 2.75.

It's not entirely accurate, but it gives people an idea.

I see this used in articles about the field all of the time. It's the way we think. It works best for people who don't understand, or don't want to understand, the actual technical specs.

You are apparently one of those who thinks everyone is out to deceive. I'm not.
Sorry Mel, but the reality on the cell store floor is different than you're apparently aware of. Its not an overstatement to say these guys are in the same class as used car salesmen, and my friend would sadly agree. :wow:

I don't know which 'numbers' you are complaining about. All I know is that in cell phone stores, if you tell 90% of folks that such-and-such technology gives data speeds of 75 to 135 Kbps, they'll go "Ohh..." and only pretend to know what you're talking about. But if you give them the '2.5G is around dial-up speed' and '3G is broadband speed' model, they get that. 8)

EDGE isn't even really '2.75G', not in the real world. '2.75G' implies near-broadband speeds, and real-world EDGE is nowhere near broadband. Perhaps you begin to see what I'm getting at.

Oh, and my name is more a parody of LOTR than a serious name. It refers to the practice in online games of 'tea-bagging' an opponent. One of my online handles is "Scroto T. Baggins". You'll get it if you're a gamer. :D

.

[melgross]

Sorry Mel, but the reality on the cell store floor is different than you're apparently aware of. Its not an overstatement to say these guys are in the same class as used car salesmen, 'truthiness'-wise (to quote GW Bush), and my friend would sadly agree. :wow:

I don't know which 'numbers' you are complaining about. All I know is that in cell phone stores, if you tell 90% of folks that such-and-such technology gives data speeds of 75 to 135 Kbps, they'll go "Ohh..." and only pretend to know what you're talking about. But if you give them the '2.5G is dial-up speed' and '3G is broadband speed' model, they get that. 8)

EDGE isn't even really '2.75G', not in the real world. '2.75G' implies near-broadband speeds, and real-world EDGE is nowhere near broadband. Perhaps you begin to see what I'm getting at.

Oh, and my name is more a parody of LOTR than a serious name. It refers to the practice in online games of 'tea-bagging' an opponent. One of my online handles is "Scroto T. Baggins". You'll get it if you're a gamer. :D

.

From this post, I can see that we're not really THAT far apart in what we are saying. You're emphising one aspect, and I'm emphising the other.

We both agree that the tech specs aren't useful for most people, and the 2.5 etc is.

EDGE is better than you're giving it credit for, but presently, Cingular, er, AT&T's implemintation is not. It's on the l9wer end of what they can do with it. Perhaps, when the iPhone is actually available they will have worked to upgrade their speeds.

No, I'm not much of a gamer these days. Baggins still comes from Tolkien though.

[GregAlexander]

Visual Voicemail is quite a bit simpler to use. You don't have to request any options at all, just select the one you want. It doesn't have to be used through email which seems to me to be more confusing, as it appears, from what you say, to be mixed in with those emails, even if it is flagged. Why would I want to have to go to email to listen to my messages? To totally different communications concepts.

First (to get it out of the way), the VoIP had 2 options when I set it up, not every time I go to use it (though really... having 2 ways of doing one thing is pretty fundamental to ease of use).

Apart from that, all you're saying is that you don't want your voicemails mixed in with your emails. Sounds fine to me. If a mobile network provider sends them as MMSes they'll appear as MMSes (not email)...

Anyway... interface discussions aside (though I like them) I'm just hoping Apple uses as much existing technology as possible so that networks around the world can offer Apple services easily.

[melgross]

First (to get it out of the way), the VoIP had 2 options when I set it up, not every time I go to use it (though really... having 2 ways of doing one thing is pretty fundamental to ease of use).

Apart from that, all you're saying is that you don't want your voicemails mixed in with your emails. Sounds fine to me. If a mobile network provider sends them as MMSes they'll appear as MMSes (not email)...

Anyway... interface discussions aside (though I like them) I'm just hoping Apple uses as much existing technology as possible so that networks around the world can offer Apple services easily.

I garee that it would only take one set-up. But, you know how people are. How many read the manual? Not many. Most won't even realise that they CAN set it up that way, esp. if they're coming from a different place where it can't be done. Apple's is easier. Just poke it and see what happens.

I would hope that the other networks around the world would somehow be able to use this tech as well. I'm fairly sure that it will be done.

[TBaggins]

From this post, I can see that we're not really THAT far apart in what we are saying. You're emphising one aspect, and I'm emphising the other.

We both agree that the tech specs aren't useful for most people, and the 2.5 etc is.

EDGE is better than you're giving it credit for, but presently, Cingular, er, AT&T's implemintation is not. It's on the l9wer end of what they can do with it. Perhaps, when the iPhone is actually available they will have worked to upgrade their speeds.

No, I'm not much of a gamer these days. Baggins still comes from Tolkien though.
Glad we agree. I would not hold my breath for EDGE to get much better though... all the major carriers are in the process of replacing it with 3G. Improved EDGE may eventually matter out in the boondocks, where it may not be cost-effective to deploy 3G, but probably not anywhere else.

Baggins does come from Tolkein, but trust me, tea bagging is something you'll find in no Tolkein book anywhere, not even in the appendices. ;)

.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Melgross, you've never teabagged someone?

[ThinkingDifferent]

For some reason I thought voicemail would be stored on the iPhone and not at the carrier.

[Amorya]

Regarding the G numbers, here's how I learned it:

1G: analogue phones.
2G: digital phones, circuit switched data connections.
2.5G: packet switched data; GPRS and EDGE.
3G: packet switched data at a fast enough speed to hold a video call.

There's no 2.75G... the connection is either fast enough for video calling/streaming, or it isn't. There's no grey area.

Regarding MMS: it does not appear that Apple supports it at all. Which is a damn shame -- I send photos via MMS a lot more than I send them via email!

Amorya

[Chucker]

EDGE is 2.75G. GPRS is 2.5G.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.75G

[TBaggins]

Sorry, double post. AI is being particularly pissy today. :(

[TBaggins]

EDGE is 2.75G. GPRS is 2.5G.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.75G
Nope. EDGE is theoretically 2.75G (if by that we mean 'near broadband' speed), but real-world performance is 2.5G, aka not much faster than dial-up.

Wikipedia is great, but some things posted there are as much opinion as fact. :\

They got this part right though:

"The term 2.75G has not been officially defined anywhere, but as of 2004 is beginning to be used quite often in media reports."

Sounds like someone's bright marketing idea, repeated by reporters eh? 8)
.

[sunilraman]

I can't believe you guys wasted like 10 posts arguing about whether EDGE is 2.5g or 2.75g. :no: :D ...I was just quoting Wiki as a brief reference to how Apple/Cingular is going to deliver "Internet-Communicator" type services leveraging the Cingular (and down the line quad-band other GSM for other countries) GSM network.

Yeah, EDGE is sucktastic by modern mobile phone "standards". In Australia Vodafone I get 3G via I think HSDPA or something and Telstra Australia has "nextG" 256kbps 3G (not sure what standard exactly). The 3G "EVDO" tested by a number of USA reviewers has been rather promising.

I think the key point to note is that GSM-EDGE is the first step for iPhone 2nd half 2007. Beyond that, globally, Apple will need to get some 3G ass in gear or they'll be seriously hampered in the non-US market. :( ...Quad-band GSM, and perhaps 3 different flavours of 3G for different market segments globally in 2008. Hence, as I said, a big task for Apple to embark upon.

[sunilraman]

"Steve's target for 2007 (really just 2nd half of 2007) is 10 million units."
10 million units is his target for calendar year 2008. He didn't give a target for 2007.

Thanks, I just checked the SteveNote ( I hadn't finished watching it). Some journalists and analysts out there are thinking 10 million units in 2007.

10 million units in 2008. Easy peasy for Apple. GOOooooooo Apple !!!!! :D :D

Also, I've been quoting Europe as 2008 but it is US June 2007 onwards, Europe Oct-Dec (Christmas frenzy) quarter 2007, and Asia 2008.

I'd say Apple clears 15 million units by end of 2007 easy. 8)

[sunilraman]

Oh, and my name is more a parody of LOTR than a serious name. It refers to the practice in online games of 'tea-bagging' an opponent. One of my online handles is "Scroto T. Baggins". You'll get it if you're a gamer. :D .

Purile, but funny :D ...I just had to look up WTF teabagging means. I still don't know what the hell this "Web 2.0" is by the way. Can someone explain that to me? F**k I'm getting old man........ Damn kids and the Intarweb nowadays!!!

When I did use to play CountahSterike I'd just do a quick spray paint tag and be on my merry way. Usually I'm too paranoid to hang around much once I've made a kill. I quickly run or crouch or flip 180deg pretty damn fast... Fire off some rounds randomly as I scamper off.

[sunilraman]

Let's randomly set $550 USD as the average selling price. A 20% margin would mean that 20% of that is profit (am I right here?) which is $110 USD PER UNIT.

Steve's target for 2007 (really just 2nd half of 2007) is 10 million units. 10,000,000 x 110 = 1100 million = 1.1 billion profit. Quarterly profit at the moment is what, 200-500 million USD...

Yup I am wrong about the 2nd half of 2007. I was also wrong about the 1.1 billion profit bit :

APPLE JUST POSTED 1 BILLION DOLLARS IN PROFIT FOR Oct-Dec 2006*. FRACK ME.

We're looking at 1-2 Billion Dollars in profit per quarter going into 2nd half of 2007 and 2008.

*Yes I know Jan-June 2007 may be less that 1 billion profit because of da post-Christmas "cooldown"...

[melgross]

Melgross, you've never teabagged someone?

As I've said I'm not a gamer anymore. If I knew what it meant, I could answer your question. :lol:

[sunilraman]

As I've said I'm not a gamer anymore. If I knew what it meant, I could answer your question. :lol:

http://www.theaveragegamer.com/terminology/#t
"Teabagging: A nasty practice where a player will crouch over a just-killed player’s body, appearing to dangle his private regions in the face of the dead player. A rather tasteless form of victory celebration."

[melgross]

http://www.theaveragegamer.com/terminology/#t
"Teabagging: A nasty practice where a player will crouch over a just-killed player’s body, appearing to dangle his private regions in the face of the dead player. A rather tasteless form of victory celebration."

That plays to your nature. Figured you would know! ;)

By the way, don't teabag your box! It's a highly coveted collectors item. There aren't many of them around.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I wasn't talking about it while gaming.

You don't have to be a gamer to teabag...

[TBaggins]

I can't believe you guys wasted like 10 posts arguing about whether EDGE is 2.5g or 2.75g. :no: :D ...
You mean you DON'T understand how something like that could happen? On the INTERNET? :wow:

Sunil, your geek card is hereby suspended. Exit the AI forums immediately, and think about what you've done. :D

.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Yeah, you of all people Sunil...

[sunilraman]

ROFLMAO. I lost interest in the whole 2.5 vs 2.75G debate once I started "learning" about this "TeaBagging" thing... in a gaming and non-gaming context :D

[melgross]

ROFLMAO. I lost interest in the whole 2.5 vs 2.75G debate once I started "learning" about this "TeaBagging" thing... in a gaming and non-gaming context :D

That's right, keep what's important up front. :lol: