Briefly: Apple offers developers new Leopard build

[AppleInsider]

Apple Inc. this week began offering its developer community a new pre-release build of its upcoming Leopard operating system, sources tell AppleInsider.

Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard build 9A499 is believed to be the first widespread seeding of the software since June. At that time, Apple treated attendees at its annual developers conference to an exclusive preview of build 9A466, later broadening distribution of that same build to its vast Apple Developer Connection community.

According to people familiar with this week's near 7-gigabyte seeding, the new build is noticeably snappier than the one it replaces. Those same people, however, continue to report that software is rife with bugs, making it somewhat unstable.

"I'm recommending to other developers that they stick with the earlier 9A466 build," one said. "[The latest build] is very buggy."

For its part, Apple has already delayed Leopard once -- pushing it out to "October" from an introduction originally planned for June. The company attributed the delay to iPhone, saying it needed to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from its Mac OS X team in order to make good on a promise to launch the handset by the end of June.

As part of its developers conference six weeks ago, Apple previewed what it called a "near feature complete" version of Leopard, introducing previously "top secret" features such as a new 3D application dock and file "stacks."[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=3009)

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[marwoz]

and maybe we will see another Leopard launch delay?

[dmwogan]

Its coming down to crunch time!

David W.
www.davidwogan.us

[SpamSandwich]

OMG, just what we need to hear today.

[josa92]

and maybe we will see another Leopard launch delay?

no. the first release will be pretty buggy, the world will feedback and X.5.1 will be december-January. of course, i'm probably wrong. :(

[xflare]

I don't think we'll se Leopard released until January 2008.

[Karl Kuehn]

and maybe we will see another Leopard launch delay?

Maybe, but there is nothing in this report to indicate that. A speed increase means that the core team has made some changes, and that tends to expose/create problems higher up in the stack (the bugs). If this release were the final one to make core changes (other than bug-fixes) that would indicate that they are on track. We have no way of knowing at this point.

[sandau]

Maybe, but there is nothing in this report to indicate that. A speed increase means that the core team has made some changes, and that tends to expose/create problems higher up in the stack (the bugs). If this release were the final one to make core changes (other than bug-fixes) that would indicate that they are on track. We have no way of knowing at this point.

umm, then why release it? why not wait a week or two and let the other developers fix their crap? this release sounds like a Microsoft build philosophy to me. ;)

[crees!]

"I'm recommending to other developers that they stick with the earlier 9A466 build," one said. "[The latest build] is very buggy."

If you're a developer I would think you'd want to be on the latest build to test your work against. If your crap doesn't work you try to figure out why and then contact Apple from there.

[zodieman]

Let's not start any "the sky is falling thing" folks. Leopard is still in beta which means feature complete but still has bugs.

If recent history shows anything is that Apple will release Leopard at the end of October (Apple is now in the habit of shipping major pre-announced products at the last minute. Witness the iPhone and AppleTV). This gives them another 2.5 months to work on Leopard (allowing 2 weeks to press DVDs and manuals and ship to distribution).

Leopard will ship on time and like any other release, it will still have some issues which Apple will fix in their usual manner.

[city]

Will Apple abandon Leopard?

[SpamSandwich]

Will Apple abandon Leopard?

Yes, they are dumping it and going straight to Chester Cheetah.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/Cheetos_Mascot.jpg

[JeffDM]

no. the first release will be pretty buggy, the world will feedback and X.5.1 will be december-January. of course, i'm probably wrong. :(

I think that's reasonable though, and I think follows a pattern that Apple has had before.

[allblue]

is rife with bugs, making it somewhat unstable.

"I'm recommending to other developers that they stick with the earlier 9A466 build," one said. "[The latest build] is very buggy."


This is worrying for an OS that has already been delayed by several months. Yes they got the iPhone out the door, but at what price? Does this mean a buggy 10.5.0 or another delay? Presumably iLife is just sitting around waiting, and what about the new iMac? It seems that Apple have got themselves into a bit of a pickle here, they need to have a bit of a rethink and make sure that from here on they do not over-extend themselves and spread their resources too thinly. They can't keep hammering their engineers into the ground, and as we know, building up that human resource is a long process.

[biggsjm]

I'm suprised no one's thought about the fact that they are probably "borrowing" those key programmers to help with the update to the iPhone. Supposedly there's a huge update coming alongside leopard.

Its either that, or they have major issues. Is it me or is Leopard probably the lamest update (feature-wise) since OS 8.6 to OS 9. Tons of features! (But none you will actually use)!

[Squirrel_Monkey]

The 3D Dock was a "top secret feature?" Really? Spaces I can see, but the new Dock? Really?

[donebylee]

OMG a buggy beta!!!!!

Apple is teh DOOMED!!!

Sell all your stock now!!!

:err::no::lol:

[JeffDM]

Its either that, or they have major issues. Is it me or is Leopard probably the lamest update (feature-wise) since OS 8.6 to OS 9. Tons of features! (But none you will actually use)!

I think it's bigger than Tiger. "200 features", but I went through the list and I don't think I've ever needed more than five of them. I think better screen rotation and ease of swapping mouse button order are the two features that I actually use. If I get Leopard, I am sure I'll use ZFS and Time Machine. Maybe the stack feature. I'm not sure if the iTunes-ized Finder is an improvement.

[Marvin]

According to people familiar with this week's near 7-gigabyte seeding, the new build is noticeably snappier than the one it replaces.

Awesome, I was actually pretty happy with the speed in 9a466 but if it's even faster then Leopard is going to be great. Still, when you do get to try leopard, you suddenly see what we've had to put up with for nearly 7 years and it's quite disheartening that it took them this long to get the performance and snappiness Windows users have always had (on a clean installation I mean). It has cost users a great deal of time, money and frustration having to go through numerous hardware and system upgrades.

Those same people, however, continue to report that software is rife with bugs, making it somewhat unstable.

"I'm recommending to other developers that they stick with the earlier 9A466 build," one said. "[The latest build] is very buggy."

Definitely not for people who want to download it and spill secrets. ;) If there are any secrets left of course. Yippee a new widget added at the last minute, quick make a banner. :rolleyes:

If it is really buggy then it's quite disappointing because we're getting pretty close to the expected ship date. That's not the final build date, which will have to be sooner. If the ship date is the end of October, I suspect two more builds to come, a stable beta and the final build. Let's hope that even though there may be a lot of bugs that they are minor ones.

The 3D Dock was a "top secret feature?" Really? Spaces I can see, but the new Dock? Really?

Of course, nobody saw that coming. I actually think they tried to do something as stupid as possible just so nobody would guess.

Apple switch to Intel? never
Apple make a phone? never
Apple make a transparent menu bar and a 3D dock? They'd have to have their heads up their...

Let's guess what zany scheme they'll come up with next. Top Secret doesn't mean useful, just that nobody knows about it.

[PB]

and maybe we will see another Leopard launch delay?
Although normally I would say that nothing in the report indicates that in a clear way, this time I think that one more delay is a possibility. The iPhone has been proved a resources sink. There is of course the option to meet the deadline at any cost, the worst being releasing Leopard full of bugs to be fixed in a 3-6 months time horizon.

[webmail]

The bug list for the new build is NOT that bad at all. Its just typical stuff, in all the areas that are new. I think developers are just frustrated by the usual, "You have to completely reinstall" for this build, and that anything post WWDC Leopard files you created might not work, until recompiled.

[JeffDM]

Let's guess what zany scheme they'll come up with next. Top Secret doesn't mean useful, just that nobody knows about it.

The claimed reason was that they didn't want MS to have much time to copy it. That turned out to be lame smoke and mirrors, because no one should bother copying it. The 3D panel under the dock was something Solaris had and it should have stayed a Solaris "feature" because it's that lame.

[PB]

Top Secret doesn't mean useful, just that nobody knows about it.
That's what the definition says. But it has a great marketing value. Jobs bluffing of the last years should make everyone who follows doubting his words.

[eAi]

umm, then why release it? why not wait a week or two and let the other developers fix their crap? this release sounds like a Microsoft build philosophy to me. ;)

Because things are never perfect. If you start doing that, all the developers will be doing a "just one more fix", and it'll never get released. Its better to make frequent releases. As only developers are using these builds, the stability is mostly irrelevant.

[macanoid™]

The 3D Dock was a "top secret feature?" Really? Spaces I can see, but the new Dock? Really?

In the new build the 3D dock can rotate vertically with a cube-effect, similar that what we've seen in Keynote. This allows you to bring up a new dock, filled with new icons. Effectively creating workspaces for docks. Really useful. I would definitely call that top secret.





(just kidding of course :D )

[mr O]

I'm not sure if the iTunes-ized Finder is an improvement.

The new Finder is making it easy to switch between computers. This way you can drag files from one computer to the other without the hassle. Meaning that my next Macbookpro is gonna have a new buddy (read: a new 20" iMac i/o a 20" cinema display).

[ascii]

Have you guys seen the new Leopard GUI in the WWDC videos? I think Steve has stopped paying attention to the Mac project and the geeks are taking over and turning it in to Linux. We need his simplifying touch and aesthetic judgment on Leopard.

[mr O]

The 3D Dock was a "top secret feature?" Really? Spaces I can see, but the new Dock? Really?

The 3D Dock is amazing (no kidding). And so are the stacks/fans! Finally no more clutter!

I wonder if Spaces let you run windows in one space and Mac OSX in the other three spaces?

[Abster2core]

I'm suprised no one's thought about the fact that they are probably "borrowing" those key programmers to help with the update to the iPhone. Supposedly there's a huge update coming alongside leopard.

Its either that, or they have major issues. Is it me or is Leopard probably the lamest update (feature-wise) since OS 8.6 to OS 9. Tons of features! (But none you will actually use)!
It's you.

[Abster2core]

umm, then why release it? why not wait a week or two and let the other developers fix their crap? this release sounds like a Microsoft build philosophy to me. ;)
Why are you dissing 'other developers'? Are you so much better?

[mr O]

Have you guys seen the new Leopard GUI in the WWDC videos? I think Steve has stopped paying attention to the Mac project and the geeks are taking over and turning it in to Linux. We need his simplifying touch and aesthetic judgment on Leopard.

What do you mean?! I love time machine, but I am a bit affraid of the 3D arrows and the tubular things on the right side of the screen. Also, the green flurry (in the middle of the screen) is a bit of a concern …

The new Finder is great though, very iTunes like.

[xflare]

OMG a buggy beta!!!!!

Apple is teh DOOMED!!!

Sell all your stock now!!!

:err::no::lol:

People already did that yesterday.

[acslater017]

I think it's bigger than Tiger. "200 features", but I went through the list and I don't think I've ever needed more than five of them. I think better screen rotation and ease of swapping mouse button order are the two features that I actually use. If I get Leopard, I am sure I'll use ZFS and Time Machine. Maybe the stack feature. I'm not sure if the iTunes-ized Finder is an improvement.

I agree that Leopard is a bigger jump than Tiger. to me, the biggest addition with Tiger was Spotlight. Dashboard is nice, but it basically just expedites my weather-searching. It also ran a bit slower than Panther on my G4 iBook.

Leopard, with Finder+QuickLook+Stacks+Spaces+Time Machine, addresses the more fundamental issue of how we interact with windows and files. To me, that's great since this is honestly one of the weakest points of OS X. Aesthetically, it's also probably the biggest leap in OS X, or maybe on par with Jaguar->Panther.

I'm excited for Leopard and will pre-order it come October (or Jan 08).

[SpamSandwich]

I'm excited for Leopard and will pre-order it come October (or Jan 08).

I'll do the same thing I've been doing for years... wait for 6 months for the major bugs to get ironed out, then buy it. :D

[acslater017]

I'll do the same thing I've been doing for years... wait for 6 months for the major bugs to get ironed out, then buy it. :D

hmm...smart. but i'm too impatient. :)

[hmurchison]

I agree that Leopard is a bigger jump than Tiger. to me, the biggest addition with Tiger was Spotlight. Dashboard is nice, but it basically just expedites my weather-searching. It also ran a bit slower than Panther on my G4 iBook.

Leopard, with Finder+QuickLook+Stacks+Spaces+Time Machine, addresses the more fundamental issue of how we interact with windows and files. To me, that's great since this is honestly one of the weakest points of OS X. Aesthetically, it's also probably the biggest leap in OS X, or maybe on par with Jaguar->Panther.

I'm excited for Leopard and will pre-order it come October (or Jan 08).


Welcome to the boards acslater. Great point. Leopard is a further refinement of what I believe is the best OS on the planet.

I cannot personally see an area that hasn't been touched in Leopard that vexes me in Tiger. The Finder is purportedly faster and doesn't hang with network mount/unmounts. It's a cleaner looking system and Spotlight has gotten more search options and polish.

I chuckle a bit when people state there is nothing they would use. Every OS upgrade has so many tweaks and improvements it's not just about the whizzbang features but about everything. I have a Core Duo...Leopard handles multiple cores better and Mail and Addressbook in Leopard will support the new nsoperation API. I'd like to know what is missing from Leopard. We have accelerated UI rendering now on a dedicated thread. We have Resolution Independence coming.

I'm impatient as well. I'm going to be moving to Leopard the first couple of weeks it is out.

[dahacouk]

I'm specially interested in any changes to the Address Book...

Does the IM field have any increase in the number of options (ICQ, Jabber, etc)? Is Skype in there now? Grrrrr!

Any other changes?

Funny, I'm less concerned with look - I want usability and productivity tools!

Cheers Daniel

[frogbat]

i've had a play around with the new kitty and the features may not be as ooh and wow inducing as dashboard was but some of the newer subtler features in the finder will make any1 who actually uses a mac in a media workflow to appreciate the improvements


the new thumbnail previews are a godsend though i couldn't' find an option to change the window view options (cmd + j) globally - just on a per window basis. So if you want all your thumbnails to be say 256X256 you need to change view options for each window.

Coverflow and quickview will prove invaluable and stacks is very comfortable though most folder will display in grid making the fan out a bit superflous

the use of a downloads folder will help

negative -

finder could be souped up even more- make it more powerful , explorer still kicks its arse in displaying and sorting information. sorting should be better handled in column view and an option to have folders at the top and bottom should be given

the transparent menu is completely crap


on the fence -

the 3d dock grew on me and i found it better than the current one the open application indicator took more time to get used to

the new standard folder icons are a bit sombre

disappointed with a lack of revamp for the system wide font, colour and character palettes they should a) be treated like proper windows with focus
b) apple should adopt the HUD black interface for such palettes



i'm still expecting more drastic ui updates with more matte finishing like itunes' scrollbars and safari 3's jump / popup menu widgets

[techno]

umm, then why release it? why not wait a week or two and let the other developers fix their crap? this release sounds like a Microsoft build philosophy to me. ;)


Don't over react! Keep things in perspective. This is a beta release to developers. It isn't a retail$ beta released to the public like Microsoft does. This is how they "fix their crap."

[donebylee]

i've had a play around with the new kitty and the features may not be as ooh and wow inducing as dashboard was but some of the newer subtler features in the finder will make any1 who actually uses a mac in a media workflow to appreciate the improvements


the new thumbnail previews are a godsend though i couldn't' find an option to change the window view options (cmd + j) globally - just on a per window basis. So if you want all your thumbnails to be say 256X256 you need to change view options for each window.

Coverflow and quickview will prove invaluable and stacks is very comfortable though most folder will display in grid making the fan out a bit superflous

the use of a downloads folder will help

negative -

finder could be souped up even more- make it more powerful , explorer still kicks its arse in displaying and sorting information. sorting should be better handled in column view and an option to have folders at the top and bottom should be given

the transparent menu is completely crap


on the fence -

the 3d dock grew on me and i found it better than the current one the open application indicator took more time to get used to

the new standard folder icons are a bit sombre

disappointed with a lack of revamp for the system wide font, colour and character palettes they should a) be treated like proper windows with focus
b) apple should adopt the HUD black interface for such palettes



i'm still expecting more drastic ui updates with more matte finishing like itunes' scrollbars and safari 3's jump / popup menu widgets
Frogbat,

Have you had any time to play around with metadata in Leopard yet? I'm hoping for better support for tagging files and searches based on metadata. Any insight is greaty appreciated.

[debohun]

The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility -- and to find a way to directly economically enfranchise third-party developers. The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it. There is no point in intentionally keeping your company small, if you aren't also going to keep it nimble.

[SpinDrift]

Apple previewed what it called a "near feature complete" version of Leopard, introducing previously "top secret" features such as a new 3D application dock and file "stacks."

Wow, arn't we lucky!
:grumble:

[frogbat]

Frogbat,

Have you had any time to play around with metadata in Leopard yet? I'm hoping for better support for tagging files and searches based on metadata. Any insight is greaty appreciated.

hi,

fraid i didn't try that as i don't have much experience in meta tagging (tho i defo need to catch up there) so i didn't bother trying it out - spotlight's default hot key is now ctrl + space now - bit annoying for quicksilver users

[aegisdesign]

In the new build the 3D dock can rotate vertically with a cube-effect, similar that what we've seen in Keynote. This allows you to bring up a new dock, filled with new icons. Effectively creating workspaces for docks. Really useful. I would definitely call that top secret.

(just kidding of course :D )

Damn. Now that I could use. It wouldn't be that hard to implement either. A couple of arrows on the right hand side and making it work with a scroll ball/wheel mouse. It'd be lovely.

The new Finder is great though, very iTunes like.

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

I think it's bigger than Tiger. "200 features", but I went through the list and I don't think I've ever needed more than five of them. I think better screen rotation and ease of swapping mouse button order are the two features that I actually use. If I get Leopard, I am sure I'll use ZFS and Time Machine. Maybe the stack feature. I'm not sure if the iTunes-ized Finder is an improvement.

I'm with you there with the doubts on the new Finder being an improvement except for two things - Networking that now actually works and the death of the spinning beachball. They could do something utterly terrible like a Windows style tree view or a ribbon and I'd be upset but networking that works and no beachball - I'll be sacrificing a moof cow to the gods of Claris in thanks.

I'm not so concerned about the dull blue folder icons. Easy replaced.

[Abster2core]

The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility -- and to find a way to directly economically enfranchise third-party developers. The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it. There is no point in intentionally keeping your company small, if you aren't also going to keep it nimble.
And what company did more and faster? And what company would you consider has been most innovative HP (14), IBM (15), Dell (34th), Microsoft (49th), or little Apple (121st) in the Forbes 500 list?

[allblue]

@Abster2core

Yes, but the point is not was has happened, but how they go on from here. Up until a few years ago Apple just had computer hardware and computer software to innovate and develop. Now they have iPod hardware and software, and iPhone hardware and software. They have already admitted that the latter has caused 10.5 to be delayed, and as I point out on my original post, this in turn has led to a bottleneck delaying other products, iLife certainly and the iMac probably. As they expand from being a computer company into a consumer electronics company that also makes computers, they have to find a way to manage that without degrading the design excellence and general quality that is the brand.

Obviously they are aware of this, the new campus in Texas and so on, but these things have a long lead-in period, plus sufficiently skilled engineers and designers are not two-a-penny, and there is a lot of competition for them. debohun's ideas seem one plausible way of achieving that growth and diversification without sacrificing the quality of the customer experience that makes us all the happy Apple consumers we are.

[melgross]

Welcome to the boards acslater. Great point. Leopard is a further refinement of what I believe is the best OS on the planet.

I cannot personally see an area that hasn't been touched in Leopard that vexes me in Tiger. The Finder is purportedly faster and doesn't hang with network mount/unmounts. It's a cleaner looking system and Spotlight has gotten more search options and polish.

I chuckle a bit when people state there is nothing they would use. Every OS upgrade has so many tweaks and improvements it's not just about the whizzbang features but about everything. I have a Core Duo...Leopard handles multiple cores better and Mail and Addressbook in Leopard will support the new nsoperation API. I'd like to know what is missing from Leopard. We have accelerated UI rendering now on a dedicated thread. We have Resolution Independence coming.

I'm impatient as well. I'm going to be moving to Leopard the first couple of weeks it is out.

I've done what I normally don't do. I pre-ordered the Family Edition from Amazon.

Usually, I get one copy and put it on one test machine. But, this time, both my wife and daughter want it right away, so I gave in.

[gastroboy]

I'm suprised no one's thought about the fact that they are probably "borrowing" those key programmers to help with the update to the iPhone. Supposedly there's a huge update coming alongside leopard.

Its either that, or they have major issues. Is it me or is Leopard probably the lamest update (feature-wise) since OS 8.6 to OS 9. Tons of features! (But none you will actually use)!

No it is not just you. In fact I am still running OS8.6 on an older iMac because it is solid, reliable and Oh So fast!!!

OS9 was buuuuugggy!!!! and only there to make OSX look good when it finally arrived.

With Leopard I have gone from eager with anticipation, to disappointed at its no show, to impatient with its lack of features to dreading its awful transparent menus and 3D dock (The kind of Crap you expect from Microsoft).

My only hope, and a very slim one, is that it finally has done something about the irksome bugs in Finder that have persisted over multiple versions of OSX.

I maybe being a realistic pessimist, but think either another delay or a buggy release is imminent.

[ascii]

What do you mean?! I love time machine, but I am a bit affraid of the 3D arrows and the tubular things on the right side of the screen. Also, the green flurry (in the middle of the screen) is a bit of a concern …

The new Finder is great though, very iTunes like.

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

[sandau]

OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

OS X Leopard, designed by interns.

[djgamble]

Personally I think lots of bugs is good. It means that the OS is probably feature-complete and just needs some bug fixing.

[Abster2core]

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.
And where is your latest creation?

[melgross]

And where is your latest creation?

Abster, you know that's not a proper response.

[SpamSandwich]

Personally I think lots of bugs is good. It means that the OS is probably feature-complete and just needs some bug fixing.

Bugs are bugs. Never good.

[SpamSandwich]

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

I've stated my dislike of the OS "update" in numerous posts (I actually though OS9 was very snappy and responsive, X has seemed like it is stuck in molasses since it's introduction)...

[melgross]

I've stated my dislike of the OS "update" in numerous posts (I actually though OS9 was very snappy and responsive, X has seemed like it is stuck in molasses since it's introduction)...

Supposedly, they've fixed that in the Finder, which was where most problems of that nature resided. (Um, nice sentence!}

[ascii]

And where is your latest creation?

I'm not claiming my creations are superior, I'm claiming their earlier ones are.

[Messiah]

I used Leopard for a while, and when I went back to using Tiger again I caught myself thinking –

"Oh yeah, I really hope the subsequent builds of Leopard are more like Tiger..."

[mr O]

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

You can get rid of the "big imposing grey block" at the top of the active window by clicking the horizontal tubular thing on the right side of the grey block.

Speaking about Mail, I am still using Gmail as Mail is not able to streamline and elegantly manage my many conversations. When is Apple going to address this issue? Mail should be treated like a messaging program, just like Google does with Gmail.

In Gmail, I am also giving multiple tags to my messages. One message could be tagged with "design studio" and "finances" at the same time eg. Both tags are visible in my Gmail inbox. With Apple, you'd have to copy the message into different folders … :(

[macanoid™]

In Gmail, I am also giving multiple tags to my messages. One message could be tagged with "design studio" and "finances" at the same time eg. Both tags are visible in my Gmail inbox. With Apple, you'd have to copy the message into different folders … :(

Have a look at MailTags - simply wonderful!!

[mr O]

Have a look at MailTags - simply wonderful!!

… euhm, I think you lost me :embarrass It's not mentionned in "Mail help"!?

[macanoid™]

sorry, should have posted a link, it's a mail plugin: MailTags (http://www.indev.ca/MailTags.html) Use it all the time - absolutely wonderful!

[mr O]

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

iTunes is the sexiest Jukebox out there! Coverflow works great with Mighty Mouse! And play count is giving me instant feed back about my current mood :) iTunes even let's me add images to the official cover art of the cd!!

Coverflow should be introduced into Safari as well. It's allready being the case with the iPhone, but imagine all of your bookmarks being displayed like updated web flicks inside Safari!

And finally: Coverflow should be introduced to Address book, Front Row and iPhoto as well.

[mr O]

sorry, should have posted a link, it's a mail plugin: MailTags (http://www.indev.ca/MailTags.html) Use it all the time - absolutely wonderful!

Owmygod! This sounds absolutely brilliant! Thanks a lot! I'm gonna try it :)

[mr O]

With Leopard I have gone from eager with anticipation, to disappointed at its no show, to impatient with its lack of features to dreading its awful transparent menus and 3D dock (The kind of Crap you expect from Microsoft).

Wait, I thought only the top menu bar was gonna be transparent?! < Which is great as it will add a little feng shui to the desk top! It will also make the menu bar a little less prominent.

I hope they do not make all the little menus transparent?! eg. like the inspector palette in "Word" and "Excell". This is just plain silly :(

[mr O]

I've done what I normally don't do. I pre-ordered the Family Edition from Amazon.

Melgross, what does your experience and gut feeling tell you?! > Do you think the buggy Leopard Beta is gonna make it?! Of course, there are 31 days in October …

It is actually only 9 weeks from Steve's keynote in January. Maybe it's better to introduce Leopard with an all new MacBookPro. Meaning, you will have to look for another Xmas present for your relatives :D

[mr O]

Yes! 100, One Hundredth, post! I am now part of the 3 digit club :)

[JLL]

The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility

Huh? Almost everything in Mac OS X relies on frameworks that every third party developer has access to.

The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it.

The huge amount of open source and open standard stuff in Mac OS X doesn't really show a NIH attitude to me.

I guess you didn't know Apple in the Classic days.

[macanoid™]

Owmygod! This sounds absolutely brilliant! Thanks a lot! I'm gonna try it :)

you're welcome. be sure to also check out the MailActOn, MailFollowUp and MailTypeSelect (the latter does find-as-you-type!

back on topic now :D

[Marvin]

Coverflow and quickview will prove invaluable and stacks is very comfortable though most folder will display in grid making the fan out a bit superflous

I noticed that too. The fan out doesn't even work on the side.

the use of a downloads folder will help

I have a downloads folder anyway so it's not a big deal for me. It seems to be like Apple are just forcing people to do what they should be doing already.

finder could be souped up even more- make it more powerful , explorer still kicks its arse in displaying and sorting information. sorting should be better handled in column view and an option to have folders at the top and bottom should be given

I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes? The navigation is worse IMO as it feels like I'm using OS 9. I use column view all the time and I haven't seen anything in Windows that has the same functionality.

the 3d dock grew on me and i found it better than the current one the open application indicator took more time to get used to

Once I made it black, I started to like it but it's still too high up and I think it should have had less of an angle to it.

the new standard folder icons are a bit sombre

Yeah but it's a change. We Mac users get so little variety in the interface, I'm glad just to see something new.

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

I'm the same in itunes but not the Finder. I don't have any cover art so coverflow is kinda useless but it's great for flipping through image collections. It's very fast even with high res images. Still no animated gif support though, I don't know why Apple don't support this.

One thing I really dislike about the Finder coverflow is how it jumps you back to another view if you double-click a folder. It doesn't stay in coverflow mode. Also, you only get a list view beneath coverflow. They could have easily put column view under there. I actually don't understand why coverflow is a new view option. I would have preferred if it was just a slide down option. So say you are in column view, hit a button and coverflow slides down above it.

I used Leopard for a while, and when I went back to using Tiger again I caught myself thinking –

"Oh yeah, I really hope the subsequent builds of Leopard are more like Tiger..."

Haha, I thought the same thing too. Leopard's interface should be called inyourface. Tiger just seems quite refined. The dock is not invasive and the drop shadows are subtle. I don't like the gradients on the new menus either.

[John French]

I noticed that too. The fan out doesn't even work on the side.



I have a downloads folder anyway so it's not a big deal for me. It seems to be like Apple are just forcing people to do what they should be doing already.



I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes? The navigation is worse IMO as it feels like I'm using OS 9. I use column view all the time and I haven't seen anything in Windows that has the same functionality.



Once I made it black, I started to like it but it's still too high up and I think it should have had less of an angle to it.



Yeah but it's a change. We Mac users get so little variety in the interface, I'm glad just to see something new.



I'm the same in itunes but not the Finder. I don't have any cover art so coverflow is kinda useless but it's great for flipping through image collections. It's very fast even with high res images. Still no animated gif support though, I don't know why Apple don't support this.

One thing I really dislike about the Finder coverflow is how it jumps you back to another view if you double-click a folder. It doesn't stay in coverflow mode. Also, you only get a list view beneath coverflow. They could have easily put column view under there. I actually don't understand why coverflow is a new view option. I would have preferred if it was just a slide down option. So say you are in column view, hit a button and coverflow slides down above it.



Haha, I thought the same thing too. Leopard's interface should be called inyourface. Tiger just seems quite refined. The dock is not invasive and the drop shadows are subtle. I don't like the gradients on the new menus either.

True enough that we don't get enough variety in the interface.

inyourface? dude, it should be called, "unseeablyinyourface"- half of it is slick, half is transparent, and half is, well, in your face! :err:

[JeffDM]

I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes?

Calculate folder sizes? Is it that much different between OSs? On OS X, the only way I know is "get info" and in Windows, you get "properties". The only difference I see is that Finder has a hot key for it, Explorer does not.

[JLL]

After playing a bit with it I don't find the new build any buggier than the previous build, and it contains quite a few small changes (and finally a Danish spelling checker).

[solipsism]

I'll do the same thing I've been doing for years... wait for 6 months for the major bugs to get ironed out, then buy it. :D

hmm...smart. but i'm too impatient. :)

Me too. I've ben using at my main OS since 9A466.

There are plenty of bugs, but there are new features (many not even mentioned at WWDC) that I just can't live without now so going back to Tiger is a no go for me now.

[macanoid™]

there are new features (many not even mentioned at WWDC) that I just can't live without now so going back to Tiger is a no go for me now.

care to name your top-5? I'm just curious.

[solipsism]

care to name your top-5? I'm just curious.

I wish I could, but NDA is in effect.

What I can say is that I love the new Download folder. I have been using one in my Dock for a couple years now, so it's nice to have this one with an even easier to access files. I'm not fond of the 3D Dock, though.

I do love Mail having Notes, To-Dos and an RSS reader built in. RSS Menu was my previous favorite reader. Not perfect, but ot offered a very simple, unobtrusive way to se when you have new messages/articles. Safari's reader is nice, but I don't want to go to a site first to see if there are new articles.

iCal has some nice changes to it. Enough that I'm actually using it more so I guess that is an improvement.

The new Shared section in Finder is really streamlined compared to Tiger, as shown in the WWDC video. Many of the things I really like are the little things. The things Apple notices. The things Apple gets.

Quicklook as gotten better, especially with resources but I still find I only use it for PDF, Docs, Images, and Audio. Never for video. I prefer to click on it and use it QT instead.

Just know that I really like it despite its wonkiness. I think it will increase Mac sales even more, and there are many things in it that will help the iPhone interact with it and give it more features. *cough*Notes Syncing*cough*

[Outsider]

asdf.

[solipsism]

There is a new option in the Finder called Show Path Bar. Yeah, it is what you think it is.

That has been there since at least Tiger. But you have to customize the tool bar in Finder to add it. I just use the Command+click in the titel bar to see a path, but I'm glad they added it as a default.

I would prefer to see an option to add a permanent path bar like the one that appears at teh bottom of the window when doing a Spotlight search.

[allblue]

Calculate folder sizes? Is it that much different between OSs? On OS X, the only way I know is "get info" and in Windows, you get "properties". The only difference I see is that Finder has a hot key for it, Explorer does not.

I can (half) recommend the contextual menu extra CalculateSizeCM:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19014

which works perfectly and I find invaluable, but it appears to have stopped at 10.3 and is PPC only...:\

[Outsider]

That has been there since at least Tiger. But you have to customize the tool bar in Finder to add it. I just use the Command+click in the titel bar to see a path, but I'm glad they added it as a default.

I would prefer to see an option to add a permanent path bar like the one that appears at teh bottom of the window when doing a Spotlight search.

That's what I was talking about. There IS. Never mind though I retracted my post, nothing to see here. I can't believe you caught it though. it was only up for like 15 seconds. :lol:

[melgross]

Melgross, what does your experience and gut feeling tell you?! > Do you think the buggy Leopard Beta is gonna make it?! Of course, there are 31 days in October …

It is actually only 9 weeks from Steve's keynote in January. Maybe it's better to introduce Leopard with an all new MacBookPro. Meaning, you will have to look for another Xmas present for your relatives :D

I think that Apple will release more than two more beta's. Near final pre- Golden Master, there is usually a flurry of releases, fixing the bunch of bugs that eluded them eariler because of more important problems.

That doesn't mean that an October release date can't be met, but I'm hoping that Apple is flexible here. If they miss the date by a few weeks, it's something I would prefer, rather than have a buggy release.

It's become increasingly important to Apple to get the OS out the door with as few bugs as possible.

If what they say about 50% of those buying Mac's in their stores, and the web site, are true, and sales in other places are also experiencing a large percentage of first to the Mac sales, then Apple can't expect the old Mac hands dismissal of bugs as being unimportant in a first release. These people are expecting that Apple puts out much higher quality software from the first day.

Apple shouldn't disappoint them.

[troberts]

the new standard folder icons are a bit sombre
I agree with you 100% but I do not think that will be their final appearance. I am expecting Apple to include the real icons, which will be colored, in the final build before going Gold so there will be "just one more thing..." we get to look forward to until it is released.

[frogbat]

i didn't mean to be overly negative bout the sombre icons comment - but i do have a feeling that whilst apple r trying to get gimmicky on certain things like the menu bar and new dock - they are trying to find some sort of compromise between the very colourful os x we're used to and a more restrained feel of itunes and their pro apps (which all are maximised so why not add that feature too?)

but honestly the thing that irked me the most was the right click contextual menu for icons

i was shocked to find "more" at the bottom and with only 2 options or so there. It smacked of windoze apps like office. Hope they remove it as it's a bit pointless too.

i'll kick up leopard again over the weekend to see if the sharing has improved. I think my biggest gripe with tiger (besides the finder) is the finder stalls or crashes when a connected share is no longer available. We have 3 macs in the office and no central server. At times we have to switch on a machine that was switched off to allow the others that were connected to it to get their knickers out of a twist

[solipsism]

i didn't mean to be overly negative bout the sombre icons comment - but i do have a feeling that whilst apple r trying to get gimmicky on certain things like the menu bar and new dock - they are trying to find some sort of compromise between the very colourful os x we're used to and a more restrained feel of itunes and their pro apps (which all are maximised so why not add that feature too?)

but honestly the thing that irked me the most was the right click contextual menu for icons

i was shocked to find "more" at the bottom and with only 2 options or so there. It smacked of windoze apps like office. Hope they remove it as it's a bit pointless too.

i'll kick up leopard again over the weekend to see if the sharing has improved. I think my biggest gripe with tiger (besides the finder) is the finder stalls or crashes when a connected share is no longer available. We have 3 macs in the office and no central server. At times we have to switch on a machine that was switched off to allow the others that were connected to it to get their knickers out of a twist

I have 5 items in my More and I'm under the impression that the More menu will the location of contextual menu plugins. But I can see how it screams Windows.

I had better networking with the build prior to 9A466. The ease of interaction with any network computer was great. And I can't even begin to say how wonderful it is to not have the FInder freeze when a share gets disconnected.

[Marvin]

Calculate folder sizes? Is it that much different between OSs? On OS X, the only way I know is "get info" and in Windows, you get "properties". The only difference I see is that Finder has a hot key for it, Explorer does not.

No I mean like in list view, I want to see the sizes of all the folders. Get info and properties give you the size of the selected folder. In OS X list view, you go to view > show view options > calculate folder sizes and then list by size.

After playing a bit with it I don't find the new build any buggier than the previous build, and it contains quite a few small changes (and finally a Danish spelling checker).

Yeah it's maybe just people trying to put people off from downloading it. I'm sure they've done that before. Time will tell though the more you use it. Is it really faster than before and if so in what respects?

There are plenty of bugs, but there are new features (many not even mentioned at WWDC)

Features that weren't in 9a466?

We have 3 macs in the office and no central server. At times we have to switch on a machine that was switched off to allow the others that were connected to it to get their knickers out of a twist

Can't you just relaunch the Finder? We use connected shares all the time where I work and we don't usually have that many disconnects because we've started to use a shared network drive plus none of the computers usually disconnect but I'm sure relaunching the Finder sorts it out or is it just easier for you to connect the other machine again? It still shouldn't happen of course so it's nice that it's fixed.

That's what I was talking about. There IS. Never mind though I retracted my post, nothing to see here. I can't believe you caught it though. it was only up for like 15 seconds.

Desperate for secrets maybe. If it is a flat path bar, I'd much prefer that to the menu bar that you get in Tiger. Ideally I'd like a text path bar though where the dividing slashes were also links to the folder.

[frogbat]

Can't you just relaunch the Finder? We use connected shares all the time where I work and we don't usually have that many disconnects because we've started to use a shared network drive plus none of the computers usually disconnect but I'm sure relaunching the Finder sorts it out or is it just easier for you to connect the other machine again? It still shouldn't happen of course so it's nice that it's fixed.

at times that doesn't work either - even using force quit app rather than the right click on the finder icon doesn't work at time and it's pretty annoying. At times even if might eventually work it takes so long that rebooting the switched off machine is quicker! Even if the finder relaunch did solve the problem 100% of the time, it is still a major bug which apple should've solved in tiger.

and yeah at home i have a networked drive and the problem occurs much less and i seem to recover more gracefully.

[Outsider]

Screenshots (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0707leopard9a499.html) of the new features.

[melgross]

Screenshots (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0707leopard9a499.html) of the new features.

Of everything I've seen so far, the only thing I don't like is the translucent menu bar.

I happen to like the 3D Dock.

[frogbat]

some interesting improvements - i like the full path view

the sidebar in the wwdc version didn't readjust the size of the icons when it's made larger or smaller - the sidebar in general needs more work too - the disclosure triangles are cumbersome and it would be nice to have an option to remove them - also dragging a file onto a closed disclosure triangle doesn't open it

oh and the drop shadows on the windows are too strong - again i hope apple will add more preferences so people can adjust these things to their liking (even a menubar transparency setting...)

[dstranathan]

Yes, they are dumping it and going straight to Chester Cheetah.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/Cheetos_Mascot.jpg

Wasn't 10.0 Cheetah?


Cheetah
Puma
Jaguar
Panther
Tiger
Leopard


Lion

[backtomac]

I happen to like the 3D Dock.

I think it'll look nice on the desktop Macs. For the portable users, that would be me, I'll have to see how side docking looks or just hide the dock. I'm guessing I'll just hide the thing.

[aegisdesign]

iTunes is the sexiest Jukebox out there! Coverflow works great with Mighty Mouse! And play count is giving me instant feed back about my current mood :) iTunes even let's me add images to the official cover art of the cd!!


iTunes is a mess of conflicting UI disasters, ill thought out merges of functionality it shouldn't have. The whole blue sidebar thing makes me cringe and now we're getting it in Finder.

Coverflow, sure, it's fun in iTunes but it's not as functional as a list. It's also a lot slower. Chances of me using it in Finder - ZERO.

Coverflow should be introduced into Safari as well. It's allready being the case with the iPhone, but imagine all of your bookmarks being displayed like updated web flicks inside Safari!

And finally: Coverflow should be introduced to Address book, Front Row and iPhoto as well.

Yes, it probably should. As long as I can switch it off, I don't care.

I just wish Apple would give the basics some love instead of introducing extra eye candy.

[JLL]

Coverflow, sure, it's fun in iTunes but it's not as functional as a list. It's also a lot slower. Chances of me using it in Finder - ZERO.

It's not supposed to replace lists or other views. It's an addition and I can see it being useful in folders or search results with images, pdfs or documents.

[ghiangelo]

It's not supposed to replace lists or other views. It's an addition and I can see it being useful in folders or search results with images, pdfs or documents.

yes i think that is the whole point. i embrace the new visual functionality in the new Finder. it's something that has been missing in Mac Os since the beginning. Macs are not only home PCs but are intended as art/design/graphics systems for professional use, so having LOTS of picture previews is not just eye candy, it's a must! currently i use Adobe Bridge as my finder half the time. it has wonderful previews of image files including pdf and i am able to sort files and folders right from Bridge... the irony is that Mac Os shoulda had this sorta thing built into it years ago. Expose, Spaces, Stacks are all useful and needed features for the cluttered world of visual design and art. i'm looking forward to it... the issue i have with coverflow has to do with it's simulation of inertia. using the slider makes it a tad difficult pinning down the file you want without having to make 2-3 minute adjustments to get it to stop where you want. in fact there is a lot of 'threading the needle' on OsX. the three little glass buttons on every window for instance. i wish they were bigger since i always tend to overshoot them when working on the fly. way to much precision targeting on tiny actuators.

[melgross]

I think it'll look nice on the desktop Macs. For the portable users, that would be me, I'll have to see how side docking looks or just hide the dock. I'm guessing I'll just hide the thing.

I always keep it hidden.

[Amorya]

One thing I just noticed... regarding Leopard's rounded corner menus. It's not the first time Apple have done that...

http://amorya.uwcs.co.uk/leopardlisa.png

Amorya

[jonnyboy]

Yes, they are dumping it and going straight to Chester Cheetah.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/Cheetos_Mascot.jpg

:lol:

[whiskerdreams]

I agree with you 100% but I do not think that will be their final appearance. I am expecting Apple to include the real icons, which will be colored, in the final build before going Gold so there will be "just one more thing..." we get to look forward to until it is released.

Do I dare hope... Automated Icons using Core-Animation? :wow: