College Courses and AP Credit [Archive]

sequitur

08-30-2007, 12:20 AM

Yes, High school, and I'm not doing my homework because A.) My classes are really easy (I'm a junior), B.) I already finished (It was roughly 10:15 PM when I posted), and C.) This is so much more important.

Oh, and just for the record, Easy classes:

AP English Lang/Comp.
AP European History (the only one that actually makes me try)
Italian 3 AND 4
AP Chemistry
AP Calculus BC
AMPS (Advanced Math Problem Solving)
Cross Country (not really mentally stimulating, but takes up a good 2-2.5 hours when I could be working on the above)

Good schedule. What's your major? Or what will it be when you go to University? Which university? What is Cross Country? Like skiing? Why Italian? Are you planning on living there? Great place to visit. BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish. It's comparatively expensive, but maybe you could find a cute coed who has a copy and study together.
Tomorrow's a school day. Go to bed. I guess you get that from your parents a lot.

vinea

08-30-2007, 02:23 AM

BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish..

I've heard mixed reviews of Rosetta Stone. It is pretty pricey...can you elaborate more?

Vinea

sequitur

08-30-2007, 12:15 PM

I've heard mixed reviews of Rosetta Stone. It is pretty pricey...can you elaborate more?Vinea

It's been quite awhile since I used it. What I liked about it is it's like the Berlitz method of total immersion. You don't translate into English; you learn what the words mean. You see a book, but you don't think book. You think 'libra' or whatever it is in that language.

The program shows you pictures and tells you aloud in French ( or in Spanish or ...) how to say it. You repeat what you hear. You can do this over and over listening to the speaker and repeating until you think you have it. Of course, it starts out crawling, but as you progress, it gets you up on your feet running.

In college Spanish (and English Poetry) , I had to repeat some phrases over and over. Today, many years later, I can toss those sentences off without thinking about them. The repetition evidently embeds it in your brain. Furthermore, the repetition by the speaker becomes easier and easier to "hear" and understand. Eventually, your ear hears the words which then register.

If you're listening to a foreigner speaking in his language, it is difficult to hear individual words and you're so busy translating that you fall behind. In Rosetta Stone, you stop translating and start understanding the meaning of the words.

It's difficult to explain the concept in just a few paragraphs. Try Googling. You'll probably find a better explanation than mine.

bobmarksdale

08-31-2007, 11:57 PM

It may be, but rubbing elbows with AI members may cause you to develop some terrible vice. Why don't your parents have a V-chip on your computer? I don't think my parents even know what a v-chip is. Also, I bought this computer with my own money. And I would have to tell them how to do everything with the v-chip, which would very easily allow me access to it and make it relatively useless.

Good schedule. What's your major? Or what will it be when you go to University? Which university? What is Cross Country? Like skiing? Why Italian? Are you planning on living there? Great place to visit. BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish. It's comparatively expensive, but maybe you could find a cute coed who has a copy and study together.
Tomorrow's a school day. Go to bed. I guess you get that from your parents a lot.

Aerospace Engineering... not for sure, but that's what I'm thinking right now.
ISU, possibly a nice school like MIT or caltech depending on what kind of scholarships I would get
Cross country is running... 5K race (3.1 miles) Although I do enjoy cross-country skiing... I'm actually surprised that you didn't know what this is.
Italian- because I wanted to be different, and my school offers Italian, German, Japanese, and Chinese (It's a magnet school and they figure the home school would offer French and Spanish, but my home school is inhabited by complete morons...) Also, it is a really beautiful language.
My school has a lab FULL of G4s running Rosetta Stone. Although there are some cute coeds in my Italian class of around 30...
And besides, 11 is a perfectly respectable bed time when I don't have to get up till 7.

But enough detracting from the thread at hand (although any thread with over around 30 posts starts to go completely off topic soon enough).

sequitur

09-01-2007, 11:01 AM

Cross country is running... 5K race (3.1 miles) Although I do enjoy cross-country skiing... I'm actually surprised that you didn't know what this is.
).
I do know what cross country skiing is. My daughter does it. You just mentioned 'cross country'. I was unaware that it was a high school subject, and I wasn't sure you meant skiing. You must live in snow country. Brrrrr. I left snow country at 15 and never looked back.

Duddits

09-01-2007, 11:45 AM

I do know what cross country skiing is. My daughter does it. You just mentioned 'cross country'. I was unaware that it was a high school subject, and I wasn't sure you meant skiing. You must live in snow country. Brrrrr. I left snow country at 15 and never looked back.
Running Running Running!

Not

Skiing Skiing Skiing!

I'm a cat and even I know that. :)

sequitur

09-01-2007, 11:59 AM

Running Running Running!

Not

Skiing Skiing Skiing!

I'm a cat and even I know that. :)

Another catty remark, Duddits. Well, mea culpa. I've been wrong before.
I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject. Back in the olden days - the days of yore - track wasn't considered a "subject". Yes, we did have track but not cross country or at least I don't recall that.

Duddits

09-01-2007, 12:16 PM

Oh, and just for the record, Easy classes:

AP English Lang/Comp.
AP European History (the only one that actually makes me try)
Italian 3 AND 4
AP Chemistry
AP Calculus BC
AMPS (Advanced Math Problem Solving)
Cross Country (not really mentally stimulating, but takes up a good 2-2.5 hours when I could be working on the above)
Comment about site moderation deleted - JL

Anyway, back OT:

iMacs iMacs everywhere,
the glossy surface makes me stare.

All those colors rich and true
despite those who claim it looks like poo.

Duddits

09-01-2007, 12:24 PM

Another catty remark, Duddits.
Occupational hazard. Actually, species-related hazard.

I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject.
I don't think he meant "subject" literally as much as he was simply supplying a list of frivolous school activites that keep him away from the far more serious task of gabbing about Apple in this forum.

bobmarksdale

09-01-2007, 12:24 PM

Another catty remark, Duddits. Well, mea culpa. I've been wrong before.
I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject. Back in the olden days - the days of yore - track wasn't considered a "subject". Yes, we did have track but not cross country or at least I don't recall that.

Fine, it's not a subject, but it is part of my schedule, which was the general meaning of the list, if not explicitly defined. Being a professor, I would have assumed that you would be able to get away from the exact definitions/meaning of things and think.

Sorry, the above post wasn't there when I started to type this.

I don't think he meant "subject" literally as much as he was simply supplying a list of frivolous school activites that keep him away from the far more serious task of gabbing about Apple in this forum.

Exactly.

melgross

09-01-2007, 03:01 PM

Anyway, back OT:

iMacs iMacs everywhere,
the glossy surface makes me stare.

All those colors rich and true
despite those who claim it looks like poo.

That's very funny. My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.

JeffDM

09-01-2007, 03:31 PM

That's very funny. My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.

The universities don't have to divine which school is providing a good course and which isn't. How they are separated is with the standardized, third party test put out by the AP organization, the College Board. Just taking the course doesn't mean anything for college credit, you have to take the test and pass with a certain score. I think the common minimum for being equivalent to a college course is a 3 out of 5, a higher score might be worth more credits or something. Policies can vary.

melgross

09-01-2007, 04:16 PM

The universities don't have to divine which school is providing a good course and which isn't. How they are separated is with the standardized, third party test put out by the AP organization, the College Board. Just taking the course doesn't mean anything for college credit, you have to take the test and pass with a certain score. I think the common minimum for being equivalent to a college course is a 3 out of 5, a higher score might be worth more credits or something. Policies can vary.

It doesn't really work that way. In speaking to college reps who come to our HS, they tell me that each school is evaluated on its own.

The AP tests they take are only part of the story, just like the Regents is here in New York State.

sequitur

09-01-2007, 06:02 PM

Bob, you're right. I should have thought about what you meant. However, it's been a long time since I was in high school. I'm a retired US Treasury Special Agent (Criminal Investigator) working on Organized Crime cases.

Teaching is a second career for me. Unfortunately for me, I don't get students like you. I see students who don't want to be in school, don't try, expect the college to give them a grade and that's all they want. Sometimes, I get really depressed thinking the students I teach are the future of this country.
Knowing there are real students like you makes me feel that this country does have a future. Keep up the good work.

Duddits

09-01-2007, 08:14 PM

My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.
You didn't really think I thought AP stood for "Achieving Poorly??!!"

I figured since Bob's sig line was "Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time" it was high time I contributed to the effort.

Oh well.

I guess I should have used a winky emoticon but I can't quite figure out how to make emoticons appear in my text. :grumble:

In any case, please accept my apologies anyone who didn't realize I was making a joke. Feel free to blame the misunderstanding on all those AP classes I took in highschool that irreparably impaired my sense of humor. :err:

sequitur

09-01-2007, 10:11 PM

You didn't really think I thought AP stood for "Achieving Poorly??!!"

I figured since Bob's sig line was "Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time" it was high time I contributed to the effort.

Oh well.

I guess I should have used a winky emoticon but I can't quite figure out how to make emoticons appear in my text. :grumble:

In any case, please accept my apologies anyone who didn't realize I was making a joke. Feel free to blame the misunderstanding on all those AP classes I took in highschool that irreparably impaired my sense of humor. :err:

Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.

As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.

bobmarksdale

09-02-2007, 01:01 AM

Well, don't worry, my school has the best AP program in Iowa, has the most Merit-Scholar finalists, and the average AP score for most of the classes is above 4. (National average is around 3 or even less). Also, it is one of the top 100 schools in the nation. Now, you could probably figure this out on your own, but if your like me, you try to be as lazy as possible while still over-achieving (I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not), so I will just tell you that it is Central Academy in Des Moines. Excellent program. Lots of very bright students. Lots of Asians.:lol:

JeffDM

09-02-2007, 10:35 AM

It doesn't really work that way. In speaking to college reps who come to our HS, they tell me that each school is evaluated on its own.

The AP tests they take are only part of the story, just like the Regents is here in New York State.

That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.

But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.

Duddits

09-02-2007, 03:29 PM

if your like me, you try to be as lazy as possible while still over-achieving (I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not),
Well you know Einstein was sleeping around 10-12 hours a night when he put together the Theory of Special Relativity, arguably the most pivotal revelation in the history of your species if not mine (or at least in the top 3). Not to mention that he failed out of math class in high school and it wasn't even AP. The world is full of lazy over-achievers.

melgross

09-02-2007, 03:42 PM

Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.

As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.

Correct. Many people have never heard of AP classes.

melgross

09-02-2007, 03:50 PM

That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.

But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.

Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.

But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.

When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.

In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.

JeffDM

09-02-2007, 04:24 PM

Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.

But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.

When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.

In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.

melgross

09-02-2007, 06:20 PM

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.

What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.

There is no guarantee that an AP course will meet the standards of any given university, no matter what the score on the AP test. This is a fact. They also use their own experience with the students who have been admitted to them over the years. If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.

But, in addition, what we're being told, is that it's becoming less likely that any of the better institutions will accept those AP courses in lieu of the course they themselves teach.

It's coming down to this: They will look at the course load, external commitments of the student, the SAT's, and their average. AP courses, if given in a HS which is known to have high standards, will be given extra weight, but they are less likely to accept them as a substitute for their own course.

That's real life

I think we can all agree that different colleges and universities have different standards. That's why there are ratings for them, and why students want to get into one, but not another.

JeffDM

09-02-2007, 06:28 PM

What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.

I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.

If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.

I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.

Duddits

09-02-2007, 06:29 PM

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.

There is no such thing as a college-level class.

Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.

There are only classes, good and bad.

It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.

After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.

An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.

None of which matters.

If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?

There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.

Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.

Oh yeah.

iMacs are good.

melgross

09-02-2007, 08:01 PM

I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.{/quote]

I've explained why they are doing this now. Times are very different than when I went to school. Standards for college are much higher.

[quote]
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.

Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.

I've looked at some of the curriculum, and to be fair, from where I'm at, looking down, they look easy, but perhaps not from the other end, looking up.

But, it's the prerogative of the admittance office to decide what they will allow, based on the schools standards.

The one problem here is that as more schools offer AP courses, it becomes harder to find teachers who are qualified to teach them at the HS level. I don't know how the tests are devised, or how they decide to figure out the difficulty level.

It's something like the Regents here in NY State. Colleges here accept that as meaning something, but few outside of the state do.

Doing well on a regents exam does mean something, but exactly what? My daughter, as do most of her friends, finds them to be absurdly easy, but those in some other schools don't. Many schools outside of the bigger cities here in the state don't even give them. So, it's interesting to find that, a few years ago, as an experiment, a number of high average suburban schools agreed to participate in the program for one year, as a study, and their students did poorly.

These are complex subjects.

One problem is that as the population increases there is more competition for each available seat after the 12th grade. So, standards have been going up. Years ago, the AP's were designed to help differentiate between those at the higher end, but the feeling is now that they don't help as much as was once thought. Many schools seem to be adding the courses, which are not monitored for quality.

If, as some think, the tests themselves fall short, then something will have to change.

Until then, more of the better institutions are apt to not give credit for the course.

bobmarksdale

09-03-2007, 12:23 AM

Public comment about site moderation deleted

What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.

bobmarksdale

09-03-2007, 01:01 AM

I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.

There is no such thing as a college-level class.

Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.

There are only classes, good and bad.

It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.

After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.

An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.

None of which matters.

If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?

There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.

Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.

Luckily, since my school is a magnet school, which draws students from the surrounding areas to teach them at a higher level (just in case some of you don't know what I'm talking about, 'It follows';)), I will actually graduate from my home school, which would probably fall under the category of a school from which there is only 1 applicant.

Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them, awards (http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/scholarawards.html) are given for the # and average score on them. If all goes as expected, I should be a 'National AP Scholar' by the end of the year, and hopefully the 'AP State Scholar' when I graduate. I know someone who was a 2-year National AP Scholar (got it in 11th grade) who got a full ride scholarship to ISU without even applying.

Although many of you claim that the AP tests have been 'dumbed down' and standards are lower than when you were in school, I can assure you that they are not at all easy (except for calculus, but that may just because I'm a genius:smokey:).

Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.

The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here (http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html) are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.

IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.

Oh yeah.

iMacs are good.

Not 11 months wait good.

And as always, sorry for the long, disjointed post.

melgross

09-03-2007, 01:22 PM

Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,

That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.

The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here (http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html) are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.

"Should", and "do", are two different things. "Do" is becoming far more common that "should", I can assure you. I understand the scoring very well.

IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.

I don't agree. Each college, or university, should use its own standards as to what they will allow. As you will find out, college is much different from HS, assuming you will go to a good one.
If you go to a mediocre one, and there are plenty of those around as well, then it likely won't matter if you took AP at all, as their standards are lower, and they don't expect many applicants at the highest levels.

mzaslove

09-03-2007, 02:47 PM

That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.

A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.

melgross

09-03-2007, 03:48 PM

A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.

I'm not saying that their courses are poor. If they are accredited, then they must meet standards.

But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.

Duddits

09-03-2007, 06:48 PM

What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.
Never as funny on retrospect, so I'll just provide the outline and you can fill in the dots:

I pretended not to understand what AP meant.

I wondered if it meant "Achieving Poorly"

I suggested that since you found your "Achieving Poorly" classes too easy, perhaps you should take regular classes instead.

Site moderation comment deleted
:)

Duddits

09-03-2007, 07:26 PM

melgross

09-03-2007, 08:35 PM

That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.

Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases. As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.

Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.

Bergermeister

09-03-2007, 09:00 PM

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.

I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.

Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.

bobmarksdale

09-03-2007, 09:55 PM

Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases.

I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.

As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him.

Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.

As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.

Ahhh... that's sweet.

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.

Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.

Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.

Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.

I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college#History))

melgross

09-03-2007, 11:39 PM

I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.

Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.

Not to be insulting, but that wasn't what I'm talking about.

That goes under the heading of simpler studies.

You get an Associates degree from a community college, unless there are now a few that offer 4 year degrees. You still must go to a 4 year institution to receive a Bachelors.

Advanced lifesaving, while certainly worthy, is not pre-med.

Maybe we will see something at Macworld.

Penyrn will be out in early November, so that should give Apple time to turn the entire Mac line around, except, possibly, the Mini.

melgross

09-03-2007, 11:46 PM

I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.

Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.

Ahhh... that's sweet.

Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.

Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.

Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.

I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_college#History))

I don't want you to think I'm disrespecting you (to use the vernacular). I'm not.

If your grades are good enough, you can get in for free. It would be the equivalent of a full scholarship at a private institution, and that's good. But, unless your state is very generous, unlike others, not everyone can get in for free. Most all are charging for credits these days. Budget crunches have has a poor effect on higher education.

You are validating my statements about the community college system, though you my not realize it.

As I stated in my above post, you won't get pre-med in these schools. It's more like pre-pre-med. They simply can't offer the course work, and labs a well equipped 4 year school can.

I'm not saying that they don't serve a good purpose. They do.

Duddits

09-04-2007, 12:07 PM

As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.
Not flattering at all, just simple math. Any student with 2 years of solid performance in AP classes may use those against a year of college that will accept them. Taking an extra course or so a semester could further accelerate graduation. however, I would imagine that most students who can do this don't, and for good reason. The point is not to graduate early, but to learn stuff and have a good college experience. But if your goal was to graduate early, and you racked up years of APs, it's not that big of a deal.

As for treating everyone as equal, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Any student with a boatload of AP credits is equally entitled to accelerate graduation in colleges that honor them. That's just the system, and has nothing to do with how anyone treats anyone else.

Personally, I don't care whether someone has a million AP credits or works in McDonalds. I take each post as it comes and from whatever source. And of course they're not equal. Everyone is different and every post is different. That someone happens to be swimming in AP credits or, for that matter, is a cat, should have no bearing on what they have to say. All that matters is what posters actually post, and that's I respond to:

No pig more equal than any other, but each post judged on its own merits.

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
Those are two reasons for community colleges, but those are not the only two. There are many other as well.

MacWannaBe

09-04-2007, 03:49 PM

shadow

09-04-2007, 04:55 PM

sequitur

09-04-2007, 05:17 PM

:???: I know...this is probably not the forum for this but, I just bought the new 24" iMac on the weekend. The problem is that I need to wipe out the hard drive on my existing PC, running XP.
On old systems, you could format the C drive, but, I can't find out how to do that with XP.
Does anyone have an idea?
Thanks for help.

If you don't get an answer that works, take the HDD out and replace it with a new one. Depending on whether you're going to sell the PC or not, you can find some very inexpensive HDD's out there. Are you aware that even with deleting and overriding, someone who REALLY wants to access the HDD can? If you have financial info, passwords, pin numbers, etc., better be safe than sorry. I've heard of crackers buying used computers online just to get the HDD and dig down for financial info. A legitimate buyer might be happier with a new HDD anyway. If your PC is quite a few years old, it probably hasn't got a large HDD. One the same size now would be cheaper.

Next, read the replies to this post. They'll give you many reasons that my advice is wrong. Take your pick.
Gentlemen, start your (flaming) engines.

Mr. H

09-04-2007, 06:14 PM

Are you aware that even with deleting and overriding, someone who REALLY wants to access the HDD can?

This isn't accurate. Writing over the data once (with zeros, ones or something random, it doesn't matter) is enough.

There is no documented evidence of people retrieving any significant amount of data from an HDD that has been overwritten. It may be theoretically possible, but it would require fantastically expensive equipment (we're talking millions of dollars) and an enormous amount of time. No one is going to do that to steal some random joe's bank details.

That being said, if you just delete but do not write over, files are easily recoverable. I believe if you use the Windows install disc and choose to do a "full" format rather than a quick one, the drive will be completely over-written.

sequitur

09-04-2007, 06:33 PM

Mr. H

09-04-2007, 06:48 PM

I recall reading that a Mac can overwrite a HDD many times. Why the overkill if the HDD is so difficult to access?

Because some people/organisations are extremely paranoid. I guess the thinking goes that just because no-one's done it yet, doesn't mean someone determined can't do it in the future. Some organisations stipulate that data must be overwritten a minimum of 7 times, some have policies that state that media containing the most sensitive information should be physically destroyed!

For the normal consumer, over-writing once is enough.

Mr. H

09-04-2007, 07:01 PM

sequitur

09-04-2007, 09:34 PM

Because some people/organisations are extremely paranoid. I guess the thinking goes that just because no-one's done it yet, doesn't mean someone determined can't do it in the future. Some organisations stipulate that data must be overwritten a minimum of 7 times, some have policies that state that media containing the most sensitive information should be physically destroyed!

For the normal consumer, over-writing once is enough.

You're right. Prior to reading your last post, I googled the following info:

Many of the articles you would find say to destroy your hard drive with a hammer because there is no safe way to completely erase the information stored on it. This myth is absolutely false.
How Many Overwrites Do I Need?

So how many overwrite passes do you need? One. Data is so incredibly difficult to recover after being overwritten that even people with electron microscopes, advanced statistical tools, and specialized programming skills are not going to be able to recover data from your drive. It just isn't going to happen. You can search the Internet for examples where overwritten data were recovered and you will not find even one event where a person recovered more than a couple of bits of a byte.

So the paranoid can rest easy. They can follow the Department of Defense standards to help them sleep better at night, but one overwrite is enough to protect your data from being recovered.

Can you safely donate or sell an old computer without the risk of having your data stolen? The answer is yes, if you use WipeDrive to completely erase the computer before you let it leave your possession.
----------
I'm always telling correspondents to check Snopes.com before believing some 'urban myth' and I find out I've been believing one for years.
The above article is apparently pushing a product called WipeDrive; however, there are most likely many other methods.

So Macwannabee, try Shadow's method.

melgross

09-05-2007, 03:29 AM

Not flattering at all, just simple math. Any student with 2 years of solid performance in AP classes may use those against a year of college that will accept them. Taking an extra course or so a semester could further accelerate graduation. however, I would imagine that most students who can do this don't, and for good reason. The point is not to graduate early, but to learn stuff and have a good college experience. But if your goal was to graduate early, and you racked up years of APs, it's not that big of a deal.

As for treating everyone as equal, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Any student with a boatload of AP credits is equally entitled to accelerate graduation in colleges that honor them. That's just the system, and has nothing to do with how anyone treats anyone else.

Personally, I don't care whether someone has a million AP credits or works in McDonalds. I take each post as it comes and from whatever source. And of course they're not equal. Everyone is different and every post is different. That someone happens to be swimming in AP credits or, for that matter, is a cat, should have no bearing on what they have to say. All that matters is what posters actually post, and that's I respond to:

No pig more equal than any other, but each post judged on its own merits.

Those are two reasons for community colleges, but those are not the only two. There are many other as well.

You're overdoing it here.

It seems as though neither of you fully understands what is happening.

melgross

09-05-2007, 03:46 AM

This isn't accurate. Writing over the data once (with zeros, ones or something random, it doesn't matter) is enough.

There is no documented evidence of people retrieving any significant amount of data from an HDD that has been overwritten. It may be theoretically possible, but it would require fantastically expensive equipment (we're talking millions of dollars) and an enormous amount of time. No one is going to do that to steal some random joe's bank details.

That being said, if you just delete but do not write over, files are easily recoverable. I believe if you use the Windows install disc and choose to do a "full" format rather than a quick one, the drive will be completely over-written.

It takes 7 passes to ensure a total randomizing of the date.

There is residual magnetism left after several erasures. Erasure occurs mostly at the surface of the magnetic emulsion. further down, there is still signal from older data. This is because the coercivity of the magnetic particles is high enough so that the erasure from a single pass doesn't have enough energy to totally randomize them.

Continued erasure, or re-recording will eventually do so.

It does take special equipment to read through the higher layers, and special software to make sure that what is being read is data and not noise. It also take experienced people to make sense of what comes up, as there can be some detective and cryptographic work needed.

melgross

09-05-2007, 03:53 AM

Just thought I should provide some evidence that I haven't pulled the content of the last couple of posts straight out of my bottom:

Is overwritten data recoverable? (http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html)

That's certainly interesting, but not current, or entirely accurate.

As far as audio tape goes, I have recovered information from erased tapes. It couldn't be done in the '60's, but has been done since the late '80's. Unfortunately, tape demagnetizes itself over time, which is a well known phenomena. Any erased tapes from the '60's would have been impossible to recover 10 or more years later, well before the more sensitive processes appeared.

Mr. H

09-05-2007, 06:31 AM

It takes 7 passes to ensure a total randomizing of the date.

There is residual magnetism left after several erasures. Erasure occurs mostly at the surface of the magnetic emulsion. further down, there is still signal from older data. This is because the coercivity of the magnetic particles is high enough so that the erasure from a single pass doesn't have enough energy to totally randomize them.

Continued erasure, or re-recording will eventually do so.

It does take special equipment to read through the higher layers, and special software to make sure that what is being read is data and not noise. It also take experienced people to make sense of what comes up, as there can be some detective and cryptographic work needed.

Evidence please.

Don't forget that what was written to the disc before the file you are overwriting has just as much of an effect of randomising the magnetic poles as the data you use to overwrite the file.

I do not believe that it would be possible to recover significant amounts of data (i.e. more than a few bits) using the methods you describe without previous knowledge of what was on the disc.

i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if someone has written "data pattern A" to a disc, then "data pattern B", and then had a look to see if they can then detect any remnant of "data pattern A" and found that they could. However, that is very different from being given an HDD you've never seen before, that's had e.g. "data pattern C", "data pattern D", "data pattern E", "data pattern F", and then overwritten with all zeros, and being able to extract "data pattern F" from the drive. You seem to be suggesting that "data pattern C" will be on some kind of "bottom layer", with subsequent data patterns on top, so with enough resolution you'll be able to detect whichever pattern you like. It doesn't work like that. each previous data pattern will leave the odd remnant here or there, but these will all interfere with each other.

melgross

09-05-2007, 04:11 PM

Evidence please.

Don't forget that what was written to the disc before the file you are overwriting has just as much of an effect of randomising the magnetic poles as the data you use to overwrite the file.

I do not believe that it would be possible to recover significant amounts of data (i.e. more than a few bits) using the methods you describe without previous knowledge of what was on the disc.

i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if someone has written "data pattern A" to a disc, then "data pattern B", and then had a look to see if they can then detect any remnant of "data pattern A" and found that they could. However, that is very different from being given an HDD you've never seen before, that's had e.g. "data pattern C", "data pattern D", "data pattern E", "data pattern F", and then overwritten with all zeros, and being able to extract "data pattern F" from the drive. You seem to be suggesting that "data pattern C" will be on some kind of "bottom layer", with subsequent data patterns on top, so with enough resolution you'll be able to detect whichever pattern you like. It doesn't work like that. each previous data pattern will leave the odd remnant here or there, but these will all interfere with each other.

It is complex, and I admit that right now, at least, I can't give you a program, or possibly something commercial that can do this, but it can be done.

even modern disks have a magnetic layer that is several particles thick. The way magnetization works on most devices, is that the bottommost particles are rarely erased with one pass.

On tape, for instance, something I'm very familiar with, you need a bulk eraser to hope to totally erase what's on the tape completely. This is well known, and I'm surprised the article you linked to didn't have a clue about it. I have several of these devices here, though I don't do that anymore.

Even bulk erasers need more than one pass with high coercivity tapes, such as metal, and some others.

The magnetic fields from these erasers are far more powerful than the ones the drives, or tape decks themselves have.

Anyway, it's not likely we will be able to recover this info anytime soon ourselves.

My opinion is that you do need to zero out the bits at least, for most others who might try to get your info.

But, if you truly want to get rid of it, a security erase is better.

bobmarksdale

09-05-2007, 11:40 PM

You're overdoing it here.

It seems as though neither of you fully understands what is happening.

Then please explain. This time actually making valid arguments in response to our position.

melgross

09-06-2007, 12:49 AM

Then please explain. This time actually making valid arguments in response to our position.

My arguments are at least as valid as yours are. Making that comment doesn't make your points any more correct.

What's happening is that we are looking at this from different perspectives. Do you have a child in HS now? I do. I do work in the school system here in NYC, though not as a paid position. I work on the technical and computer plans, and do work in my daughters school, which is a "special" HS within the system. Doing that, I sit on several committees, one of which is called the School Leadership Team (SLT).

There, we make decisions that affect the performance of the school in various ways, such as hiring department heads, assistant principals, and, if needed, the principal.

I've been doing this work since my daughter was in kindergarden. She is now a junior.

One thing we do, is work with our college admissions office. In the slightly over two years I've been at this HS, I've spoken with a fair number of admissions personnel from various universities. We've also discussed this in our meetings.

As I've been saying, these personnel have been stating that they do not consider AP courses, even with good grades in the tests, to be more than an indicator of what the student is capable of. A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.

The schools, particularly the better ones, are very jealous of their own admissions policies and requirements. Many are concerned that allowing a HS course, even if it is an AP course of known superior quality, will damage their own reputations.

Say what you will about that, but this is a problem for those hoping to not have to take that course at the university level.

As far as the HS average goes, AP courses have, in most schools, been given a rating of 110%. So that if one achieved a 90% in AP, they would receive a 99% as a grade, which would then be averaged in as any other grade, thus bringing the overall point average up. Again, many, if not most schools, are now disallowing that as well. They strip the 10% off, and average the remainder back into the average.

As far as the tests are concerned. We've also been told by a number of admissions officers, that they have a concern that those grades are not up to what they would expect their own students to achieve.

Again, we're being told that a fair number of AP students are not doing as well in a subject as those who take the course in the university itself.

One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.

Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.

There is more, but just how much you want to read, I don't know. But, this should give a good idea of what I'm saying.

Look, if we will continue to disagree, then there will be no point. But, I'm going through these issues now, so I see them right in front of me. It's not theoretical.

As far as the discussion over Community Colleges go, it's how you want to look at it. I think that we agree more than we disagree, but are having semantic issues that are keeping us apart.

mzaslove

09-06-2007, 03:03 AM

One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.

Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.

A third reason is that some of the courses (like Physics and Calculus/math) go in sequence in colleges (ex: Berkeley), one needing the other, and AP courses can put a student "out of sequence." Example -- a 5 quarter physics series 5a-e generally needs a five part math sequence (calculus classes and differential equations and whatever that last one is that I forget). AP used to opt students out of 5a & 5c of the physics sequence which got the student behind in math... which led to problems.

melgross

09-06-2007, 05:11 PM

A third reason is that some of the courses (like Physics and Calculus/math) go in sequence in colleges (ex: Berkeley), one needing the other, and AP courses can put a student "out of sequence." Example -- a 5 quarter physics series 5a-e generally needs a five part math sequence (calculus classes and differential equations and whatever that last one is that I forget). AP used to opt students out of 5a & 5c of the physics sequence which got the student behind in math... which led to problems.

Yes, that's another good point.

acepernich@dlm.com

09-06-2007, 06:03 PM

Has anyone seen a teardown of the 24" Al iMac posted? I've only seen 20".

vinea

09-06-2007, 06:07 PM

As far as the HS average goes, AP courses have, in most schools, been given a rating of 110%. So that if one achieved a 90% in AP, they would receive a 99% as a grade, which would then be averaged in as any other grade, thus bringing the overall point average up. Again, many, if not most schools, are now disallowing that as well. They strip the 10% off, and average the remainder back into the average.

Then you have been advising your daughter to not take AP classes and go to a second tier HS?

Which is actually my intended strategy. Go to the 3rd ranking school in the district and not have my kids attend AP or "hard" classes but 2nd tier classes for easy A's. Try to do REALLY well in the PSATs. Game the system to try to get them into HYP. Okay Stanford and MIT are okay too...and Cambridge and Oxford.

If not one of these seven then advise them to find the biggest party school and join a frat/sorority.

melgross

09-06-2007, 06:44 PM

Then you have been advising your daughter to not take AP classes and go to a second tier HS?

Which is actually my intended strategy. Go to the 3rd ranking school in the district and not have my kids attend AP or "hard" classes but 2nd tier classes for easy A's. Try to do REALLY well in the PSATs. Game the system to try to get them into HYP. Okay Stanford and MIT are okay too...and Cambridge and Oxford.

If not one of these seven then advise them to find the biggest party school and join a frat/sorority.

You are not too bright, are you?

Since you're only goal in life seems to be bothering me, you obviously have little else to do.

Were you fired?

Duddits

09-06-2007, 08:41 PM

I do work in the school system here in NYC, though not as a paid position. I work on the technical and computer plans, and do work in my daughters school, which is a "special" HS within the system. Doing that, I sit on several committees, one of which is called the School Leadership Team (SLT).
SLT: School Lipservice Team. :lol:

One thing we do, is work with our college admissions office. In the slightly over two years I've been at this HS, I've spoken with a fair number of admissions personnel from various universities. We've also discussed this in our meetings.

As I've been saying, these personnel have been stating that they do not consider AP courses, even with good grades in the tests, to be more than an indicator of what the student is capable of. A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.
As a matter of policy, many do. That's what he was saying. Accepting AP credits isn't at the discretion of an admissions officer, it's at the policy of a university. Whether it's a good or bad policy is another issue. As for admissions officers, I agree that naturally their interest in APs would be as an indicator of what the student is capable of. That's the prism through which they see the world. It's their job: everything as an indicator of what the student is capable of.

The schools, particularly the better ones, are very jealous of their own admissions policies and requirements. Many are concerned that allowing a HS course, even if it is an AP course of known superior quality, will damage their own reputations.
I don't think this is correct. I don't know of any college that is worried that a high school class will effect its own reputation, or how that's even possible. College reputations are not based on classes taken by students prior to matriculation.

An interesting article the other day pointed out genuine jealousy that exists between the lower-level college teachers and the high school AP teachers in that the college teachers fear for their jobs if students bypass their courses.

As far as the tests are concerned. We've also been told by a number of admissions officers, that they have a concern that those grades are not up to what they would expect their own students to achieve.

Again, we're being told that a fair number of AP students are not doing as well in a subject as those who take the course in the university itself.
I don't follow. Are you saying that AP students who skip out of introductory-level college classes do not do as well in those subjects over time compared to students who do not skip out of introductory-level college classes? (which, if that's what you're saying, makes sense given the uneven quality of AP classes, although obviously not universally true).

One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.

Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.

There is more, but just how much you want to read, I don't know. But, this should give a good idea of what I'm saying.
Are you saying that AP courses are a crock? If so, some may be, but some are superior to the equivalent course at some universities. In general, I don't think you can generalize. But I wouldn't be surprised if many high schools were increasing AP classes to remain competitive, but at questionable quality. I also wouldn't be surprised if many high schools were increasing AP classes just to offer more intensive high quality classes.

As far as the discussion over Community Colleges go, it's how you want to look at it. I think that we agree more than we disagree, but are having semantic issues that are keeping us apart.
I don't see this as semantic. You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well.

vinea

09-07-2007, 11:20 AM

You are not too bright, are you?

Since you're only goal in life seems to be bothering me, you obviously have little else to do.

Were you fired?

Eh? I've responded twice to you the whole week.

What you just wrote says that to optimize the chance that your child gets into a top uni means going not to the top High School because they wont take more than the top X students from any school and not attending AP classes so as to not risk a B vs an A in an easier version of that class since universities count a A in an easy class as the same as an A in a AP class with respect to GPA.

If you still want to take AP exams without taking AP courses you might still be able to in order to show higher levels of understanding. Homeschooled kids can do so. Note that Harvard accepts AP credit for scores of 5. As does Yale and Princeton.

Here is Princeton's AP scale:

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/ap/table.htm

The top three schools in the US evidently disagrees with your interpretation of the percieved value of AP testing scores.

A good PSAT score is often as useful if not more as a good SAT score if it makes you a National Merit Scholar.

Heck, I'm not even disagreeing with you and you get bent out of shape. Since when are we allowed to call each other names and make direct attacks anyway? If so I have some rather choice ones for you.

Vinea

melgross

09-07-2007, 12:21 PM

Eh? I've responded twice to you the whole week.

What you just wrote says that to optimize the chance that your child gets into a top uni means going not to the top High School because they wont take more than the top X students from any school and not attending AP classes so as to not risk a B vs an A in an easier version of that class since universities count a A in an easy class as the same as an A in a AP class with respect to GPA.

If you still want to take AP exams without taking AP courses you might still be able to in order to show higher levels of understanding. Homeschooled kids can do so. Note that Harvard accepts AP credit for scores of 5. As does Yale and Princeton.

Here is Princeton's AP scale:

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/ap/table.htm

The top three schools in the US evidently disagrees with your interpretation of the percieved value of AP testing scores.

A good PSAT score is often as useful if not more as a good SAT score if it makes you a National Merit Scholar.

Heck, I'm not even disagreeing with you and you get bent out of shape. Since when are we allowed to call each other names and make direct attacks anyway? If so I have some rather choice ones for you.

Vinea

Since you've attacked me so many times before, it's hard to know just what you will say. You've called me four letter words and other not worth mentioning phrases many times, as you well know.

You're assumption that I won't do the best is always something you try to put forth. You did that again in your last post here.

If you READ that Princeton advisory, you will see that only some courses are accepted, and many times, even for those, full credit isn't allowed.

I haven't said that NO school is accepting ANY AP courses for credit, ot substitution.

What I did say, several times, is that fewer schools each year are accepting all of the credits, or allowing substitution.

That is true.

Calling a course college level is one thing, but that doesn't mean that is is necessarily a college course in all, or even any institutions.

Princeton shows that well, as many AP courses have no Princeton equivalent. Therefore, they can't be substituted for.

Bergermeister

09-07-2007, 12:34 PM

It is interesting that as we discuss and debate the top schools in the country, we do so while using language that is not necessarily AP level and we also do so while ignoring the topic of the thread. I believe that the lively debate found here (regardless of how pointless I think it is) could benefit from a title better than "Apple unveils new line of 20- and 24 inch iMacs", but not quite as much as a thread of that title could benefit from a discussion of iMacs.

I dunno, but I don't see the relationship between new iMacs, AP classes and Ivy League schools. iMacs are fantastic, AP classes can be good and bad, and the Ivy league is not all it is claimed to be. It doesn't take an AP class or an expensive education to notice that we are way, way off topic here.

Can we either get back on topic or close the thread? It is officially derailed.

vinea

09-07-2007, 01:17 PM

Since you've attacked me so many times before, it's hard to know just what you will say. You've called me four letter words and other not worth mentioning phrases many times, as you well know.

A quote rather than a baseless accusation would be nice. If I called you a four letter word you should report it. But since I haven't your accusation is simply another personal attack.

You're assumption that I won't do the best is always something you try to put forth. You did that again in your last post here.

This sentence makes zero sense. I'm guessing that once again you are attempting to take me to task for actually criticizing what you actually write rather than what you would like us to think you wrote.

If you READ that Princeton advisory, you will see that only some courses are accepted, and many times, even for those, full credit isn't allowed.

I haven't said that NO school is accepting ANY AP courses for credit, ot substitution.

What you WROTE was:

A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.

One would think that if there was a significant trend against AP credit were only few "consider" giving credit and "many" do not then one of the top three most prestigious schools would simply not allow it at all as well. However, given that the top 3 schools in the US DO accept AP credit the burden of proof is on you to show that major universities have a policy of not accepting AP testing as valid representation of understanding in a subject area.

There is NO indication here that what high school you come from (ie how good their AP program is reputed to be) is a determinant whether or not AP credit is given but that the TEST score is the threshold for consideration.

What I did say, several times, is that fewer schools each year are accepting all of the credits, or allowing substitution.

That is true.

That is an unsupported assertion. A more reasonable unsupported assertion than "most" do not and only a "few" do. One that if had written THAT way likely would have garnered no comment.

Calling a course college level is one thing, but that doesn't mean that is is necessarily a college course in all, or even any institutions.

Princeton shows that well, as many AP courses have no Princeton equivalent. Therefore, they can't be substituted for.

Yes, not all AP exams will have equivalents in all universities. So? HYP still accepts AP testing as a valid and important metric of student proficiency that they allow students to skip freshman and sophmore (100 and 200 level) courses with a sufficient score.

And these are HARD subjects like Chemisty, Physics, Calculus.

What a high school wants to call a course is immaterial. What is relevant is the test score.

In any case...you sidestepped the whole issue of if you believe what you wrote then the logical conclusion is that since AP classes are not considered very positively by admissions anyway and since you risk a lower grade from a harder course then in general you should advise folks, including your daughter, not to take them.

I'm not kidding when I wrote that my intended strategy is to seek the 3rd best HS in my district over the top 2. Getting your kids into HYP sets them up as well as you can for the rest of their lives.

vinea

09-07-2007, 01:25 PM

Looks like your wish came true

bobmarksdale

09-07-2007, 08:27 PM

Do you have a child in HS now?

Oh, come on. That's even pointless for a rhetorical question.

As I've been saying, these personnel have been stating that they do not consider AP courses, even with good grades in the tests, to be more than an indicator of what the student is capable of. A few will consider giving credit for a specific course if they feel that their own course offers no more than the AP course. But, many don't.

It is taken on a school-by-school basis. Many HSs offer 'AP' classes, and by diluting the term 'AP' to where it can be any old course with a fancy title. If a school sees where the AP class was taken, they can usually make a guesstimate of how prepared the student is based on previous students coming from that same program with similar grades. This will work mostly with 'good' or big high schools like mine.

The schools, particularly the better ones, are very jealous of their own admissions policies and requirements. Many are concerned that allowing a HS course, even if it is an AP course of known superior quality, will damage their own reputations.

Say what you will about that, but this is a problem for those hoping to not have to take that course at the university level.

If they would accept the course from a Comm. Coll, then they would accept my credits, but otherwise, they are being fairly pretentious, greedy, and annoying, IMO, by making one take the same class twice to get 1 credit. There is an exception for top-notch schools, but that is because their introductory class in that subject is not equivalent to an AP class (or what an AP class is supposed to be), unlike at a State university, where their into class usually is equivalent.

As far as the HS average goes, AP courses have, in most schools, been given a rating of 110%. So that if one achieved a 90% in AP, they would receive a 99% as a grade, which would then be averaged in as any other grade, thus bringing the overall point average up. Again, many, if not most schools, are now disallowing that as well. They strip the 10% off, and average the remainder back into the average.

Ok, idk how universal this is, but in the Des Moines area, AP courses are a 5 on a 4 point scale (A=5, B=4, C=3, D=2, F=0). When they strip off that extra 10% in your example, there will be little initiative for kids to take challenging courses, so the school will get a bad reputation for being a weak school, and if there is a choice, most of the better students will go elsewhere to get a quality education, which will renew the viscous cycle as the school loses funding, deteriorates, and then may eventually close.

As far as the tests are concerned. We've also been told by a number of admissions officers, that they have a concern that those grades are not up to what they would expect their own students to achieve.

Again, we're being told that a fair number of AP students are not doing as well in a subject as those who take the course in the university itself.

One reason for this is apparently that they feel the teaching styles between the HS and the college level are too different. This affects the student taking more advanced courses with this more sparse teaching style, without getting used to being more on their own in a more preparatory course.

A good AP course will go halfway and be helpful, but not let the student use the teacher as a crutch for learning. Some instruction, but a lot of independent learning too. It is way better than a student coming out of easy HS classes and being thrown into classes with harsh schedules and no transition.

Another reason given, is that it is felt that the student is more reliant on the parents at the HS level, and so the AP course doesn't reflect the activity the student would actually be having at their institution. This is particularly true for those who will have their students dorm, rather than live at home.

I don't understand this. At home, the student would be in an easier schedule (most likely), so they would have more time to study and learn the course. This would make them more knowledgeable and better prepared, right?

But, I'm going through these issues now, so I see them right in front of me.

Because I'm not...?

As far as the discussion over Community Colleges go, it's how you want to look at it. I think that we agree more than we disagree, but are having semantic issues that are keeping us apart.

Wrong. "You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well." - duddits

Again, most colleges will allow the credits to students from a school with a reputable AP program, or at least allow them to try and test out of it. And my data, like yours, is almost entirely anecdotal and regional, and may or may not be accurately extrapolated into a general statement.

Look, if we will continue to disagree, then there will be no point.

Fair enough. I'm done.

Duddits

09-08-2007, 06:39 PM

I'll put in one last scrape, lest anyone doubt the topic has been belabored to death.

At my college, I would say that most students enter with AP credits in most subjects, and the credits are used primarily for placement. Freshman classes and special programs are offered at various levels, and AP credits in a subject don't neccessarily place you out of something as much as into something.

While AP credits from high schools that offer them are all but a requirement for admission, the system erases their formal effect after a semester or two. Students who want to be part of accellerated programs, double majors, or nonexistent social lives, are able to do that. And students who are happy to spend 4 relatively normal years in college are also able to do that.

Perhaps there might be an air of competition freshman year in terms of who gets into what level of what class, but by sophmore year, no one cares. In the end, everyone has more than enough opportunity to flourish or flounder.

melgross

09-08-2007, 07:35 PM

Oh, come on. That's even pointless for a rhetorical question.

It was just out of curiosity. Don't get upset.

It is taken on a school-by-school basis. Many HSs offer 'AP' classes, and by diluting the term 'AP' to where it can be any old course with a fancy title. If a school sees where the AP class was taken, they can usually make a guesstimate of how prepared the student is based on previous students coming from that same program with similar grades. This will work mostly with 'good' or big high schools like mine.

This is what I said.

If they would accept the course from a Comm. Coll, then they would accept my credits, but otherwise, they are being fairly pretentious, greedy, and annoying, IMO, by making one take the same class twice to get 1 credit. There is an exception for top-notch schools, but that is because their introductory class in that subject is not equivalent to an AP class (or what an AP class is supposed to be), unlike at a State university, where their into class usually is equivalent.

I partly agree. Going state to state, and school to school, acceptance is spotty. There is no universal agreement on this. I doubt if greed is much of a factor, though there might be some.

Ok, idk how universal this is, but in the Des Moines area, AP courses are a 5 on a 4 point scale (A=5, B=4, C=3, D=2, F=0). When they strip off that extra 10% in your example, there will be little initiative for kids to take challenging courses, so the school will get a bad reputation for being a weak school, and if there is a choice, most of the better students will go elsewhere to get a quality education, which will renew the viscous cycle as the school loses funding, deteriorates, and then may eventually close.

The scoring is the same all over, as far as I know. Colleges seem to be unsure how much more difficult an AP course is, relative to an honors course in the same school. Often, honors courses are given because there is no equivalent AP course. Therefore, how does one rate an honors course, which could also be much harder than the standard course? One way is to de-rate the AP course in the average.

Otherwise,, one would have to up-rate the honors course, which would also lessen the affect of the AP course on the average.

We've been told by several recruiters that they consider AP courses in many schoolss to be about the same as the honors courses, though there are no countrywide tests. They rely on what they know of the school, as all better colleges keep records on that.

A good AP course will go halfway and be helpful, but not let the student use the teacher as a crutch for learning. Some instruction, but a lot of independent learning too. It is way better than a student coming out of easy HS classes and being thrown into classes with harsh schedules and no transition.

Yes, but the honors programs in my daughters school is handled the same as the AP program.

I don't understand this. At home, the student would be in an easier schedule (most likely), so they would have more time to study and learn the course. This would make them more knowledgeable and better prepared, right?

That's not the point as I understand it. In fact, that's the opposite to what they are concerned about. They are concerned about the large number of students that dorm away from home, and therefore have no parental support in the areas that would affect their performance. This is often in the mundane areas such as having their clothes washed, meals prepared, given curfews, etc. Often, it's found, having suddenly to do this on their own is upsetting enough that settlement into the routine of study takes a term or two. Apparently, they believe that taking these courses from the beginning gives the student more time to settle in before beginning with something more complex. It's just another part of the overall explanation given.

Because I'm not...?

I really don't know what you are, or are not, in regard to these issues. I'm familiar with them because I have a daughter in HS now. What more can I say about that? It's simply my way of giving you disclosure as to why I do have knowledge about it.

Wrong. "You said they exist for low grades and unambitious careers. In fact, they exist for many other reasons as well. Financial hardship, for example, would be another reason. And there are oodles of other reasons as well." - duddits

The many other reasons are mostly adult education, though many 4 year schools provide that as well.

Again, most colleges will allow the credits to students from a school with a reputable AP program, or at least allow them to try and test out of it. And my data, like yours, is almost entirely anecdotal and regional, and may or may not be accurately extrapolated into a general statement.

I agree. I never said that that wasn't true. What I'm saying is that, from what I'm learning about this, fewer schools are accepting them, though more are allowing (requiring) testing to get out of taking a course they have taken in AP.

[quote
Fair enough. I'm done.[/QUOTE]

Again, agreed!