Iraq: Blackwater Massacre

[segovius]

Reports are coming in that outsourced mercenaries Blackwater have run amok in Baghdad and a massacre of Iraqi citizens (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6998458.stm) has somehow taken place.

Imagine my shock. :no:

Officials are investigating a shooting incident in Baghdad in which at least eight civilians were reported killed by private US security contractors.

At least 13 people were also injured in the shooting in a busy part of Baghdad.

It broke out at about 1230 local time on Nisoor Square in the predominantly Sunni neighbourhood of Mansour, a police officer told the Associated Press news agency.

A witness said the shooting erupted after an explosion.

"We saw a convoy of SUVs passing in the street nearby. One minute later, we heard the sound of a bomb explosion followed by gunfire that lasted for 20 minutes between gunmen and the convoy people who were foreigners and dressed in civilian clothes.

"Everybody in the street started to flee immediately," Hussein Abdul-Abbas, a local shop owner, told AP.

"I was driving behind my brother's car and suddenly there was an explosion and firing. I tried to figure out what was happening when I saw a black convoy ahead of us," he told the AFP news agency.

"Soon after I saw my brother slump in the car. I dragged him out of the car and tried to hide to avoid the firing but realised that he had been shot in the chest and was already dead," he said.

Thousands of private security staff are employed by businessmen, journalists and dignitaries in lawless Iraq. They are often heavily armed, but critics say some are not properly trained - even trigger-happy - and are not accountable except to their employers.

Sunday's violence followed the publication of a survey of Iraqis which suggested that up to 1.2m people might have died because of the conflict in Iraq.

:mad:

Edit: (before anyone complains) I know the title of this thread may be a bit OTT but I don't know how to change it or I would

[@_@ Artman]

I wonder if this move by the Iraqi government has anything to do with this...

Blackwater license being pulled in Iraq (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=Aql4IIFirYmFfQkXWBWHmZWs0NUE)

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government said Monday that it was pulling the license of an American security firm allegedly involved in the fatal shooting of civilians during an attack on a U.S. State Department motorcade in Baghdad.

The Interior Ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday shooting. It was latest accusation against the U.S.-contracted firms that operate with little or no supervision and are widely disliked by Iraqis who resent their speeding motorcades and forceful behavior.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight civilians were killed and 13 were wounded when security contractors believed to be working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

"We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities," Khalaf said.

Er, I guess so...this'll be fun to watch. :smokey:

[segovius]

^^^ Something tells me they won't be going quietly.....

[southside grabowski]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39994000/jpg/_39994111_bremerguards_ap203b.jpg

[@_@ Artman]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/128814116_f3801205b9.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/143322626_3bba00fcc0.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/143322627_d1d6a6c726-1.jpg

[Jubelum]

Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock! :wow:

[sammi jo]

Condi Rice now says that there will be a fair and transparent investigation into the massacre. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/17/iraq.main/index.html)

Haaaa... haaaaa. haaaa. Are they now going to tell us that the Sun rises in the West? :wow::no::lol::no::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: As if!!!!!!

The terrorist group known as Blackwater are no better than al Qaeda. Just because their personnel are mostly "white, "Christian and are contracted by the US Government" doesn't exclude them.

[@_@ Artman]

Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock! :wow:

Well...since you're having such a wargasm over these, here's some more...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/143322630_b7d927d73c.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/138126939_807ee04f9c.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/128814119_243650674d.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/156187891_07edd10850.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/128814118_957065e75a.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/128817246_92fd7d72b4.jpg

Not all of these are Blackwater trucks, some are fringe contract security types. Maybe Iraqi. :smokey:

[Bergermeister]

Blackwater gets booted for 8 deaths... why in the heck hasn't the US military been booted yet?

Or is there a hidden agenda? To make up for the lost security, we will need another Serge, I mean Surge.

??
?

[iPoster]

Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock! :wow:

Look like Technicals to me! ;)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42825000/jpg/_42825117_ap_pickup416.jpg

http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/technical-afghanistan.jpg

[Jubelum]

What exactly would you crybabies like them to drive? An 82 Datsun convertible? The Barbie jeep?

Geez... Lets give this a try... :rolleyes:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/jubelum_ammo/Donky_Tank.jpg

[Jubelum]

The terrorist group known as Blackwater

:lol: I know a number of BWUSA operators. Terrorists? You should think about what would have happened or would be happening if BWUSA was not there. You'd be screaming about a whole other set of horrors. Trust me. :no:

[Akumulator]

Nice skull and crossbones...
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/143322627_d1d6a6c726-1.jpg

Shows just how much they care.

[Jubelum]

Shows just how much they care.

These are mercenaries. They are not the Care Bears.

BTW.. the skull and cross bones works in any language concerning that M-60, dontcha think?
Not much need for translation there. Who cares if they paint them purple and blast Jimmy Hendrix... they are there to do a job and they do it well.
If there is cause and evidence, I say fry em... but don't underestimate their value because of one incident. If this were systemic, we'd have them thrown out a long time ago.

Maybe that now they are relieved of Iraq duty, they can get back to their other jobs of protecting Exxon and Halliburton in Nigeria.

[Akumulator]

Right. Our military aren't care bears either. Maybe they should dress appropriately...

http://www.europa1939.com/whermacht/waffen/waffenss.jpg

[Jubelum]

Right. Our military aren't care bears either. Maybe they should dress appropriately...


Ohhhh... a NAZI reference... THAT'S never been done before... :lol:

[@_@ Artman]

:lol: I know a number of BWUSA operators. Terrorists? You should think about what would have happened or would be happening if BWUSA was not there. You'd be screaming about a whole other set of horrors. Trust me. :no:

Ah, their's the rub. Now the soldiers are going to have to guard their own senior officers and state officials. May have to be assigned again to guard convoys too. Just when things were "getting better" (or worse, take your pick) the stakes get higher. We'll just have to wait and see if Muqtada al-Sadr and his re-grouped gang of thugs honor their 6 month freeze and "al Qaeda" goes on a siesta.

On second thought maybe they will simply change the name they are operating under and nothing else.

"Blackwater? Never heard of 'em. We're called 'Whitewash'".

[Akumulator]

Ohhhh... a NAZI reference... THAT'S never been done before... :lol:

Oh yeah right... I should've used this image (http://www.jrbooksonline.com/images/spock%20as%20nazi.jpg) since it's all so entertaining to you. The point is, our military wouldn't use any symbols like that because it would be degrading to the people we are trying to protect. The skull and cross bones only symbolizes death. They are labeling themselves as nothing but a death squad. What is the purpose of them being there?

[Jubelum]

What is the purpose of them being there?

If you don't know, you should not be speaking with such "authority" in this thread.
Death squads? Mr. DePalma, is that you? :p

They are there, in part, to take pressure off of the DSS (with so many high-value targets in the theater, DSS would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention that DSS was never designed to guard an entire parliament, military officers from other countries, etc) and to keep our special forces people fighting insurgents (oh, sorry, the "justified resistance to the occupation").

I'd say, though Mr. Prince does not disclose such facts usually, that over 80% of BWUSA operators are former US-SOCOM operators.

[addabox]

I believe it was Christ who remarked, "If you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs".

Or brains. Whatever.

[Aquatic]

You know, I'm a flaming liberal, and vociferously opposed to 99% of the contracting in Iraq. I'm opposed to the companies for example. But the people? The actual people? These are Americans. They have families. There are a few psychos who got over there and have killed or raped civilians. I'd personally sentence them to the death penalty with extreme prejudice, one of the policies I applaud Bush for incidentally. And of course they never get more than a slap on the wrist.

But most of these people are just over there because they could use the extra cash. I personally have quasi-seriously considered going on a stint as an environmental technician, perhaps in water supply, to make a boatload of money and gain valuable project management experience. It's given me pause, pondering that. These people want to come home, perhaps to kids. So when people who might be terrorists start shooting at them, they're going to shoot back. I can't blame them. I'd probably do the same. And so would you. Unless you're suicidal. Sure I'd also get the heck out of there, but that's not to say I wouldn't defend myself. I hate Blackwater as a company, and they probably have a lot of psychos there. But I don't like this broad classification of ALL their employees as Nazis. That's wrong and dishonest.

[Bergermeister]

This is a discussion of the mercenaries that are over there, not the guys honestly trying to help build the country via public works projects. The problem is that many of them go over there and retain their American attitudes and behaviors, which don't necessarily go down too well with the locals: the second post quotes an article that says the contract warriors are widely disliked, something that doesn't surprise me in the least. If you take your average American tough-guy, he will not be liked in most places, including the US. Americans are famous for being pushy, selfish, arrogant and so on in many countries, simply because of a difference in culture. It's not that one is right and the other is wrong; they are just different. When you go into another country where the vast majority of the people are not terrorists, you must adapt to their ways, otherwise it is an unwelcome intrusion and will possibly breed more of the terrorists we are so scared of in the first place. However much I hate to say this, the mercs are ambassadors, if you will, and if they screw up, we all pay for a long time. Killing innocent civilians is screwing up. Sadly, the US military has been doing the same and worse, but they are allowed to stay because they aren't contracted.

[@_@ Artman]

The Iraq Blackwater Test (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/17/144417/365)

First problem. Blackwater does not have a license to operate in Iraq and does not need one.

They have a U.S. State Department contract through Diplomatic Security. Instead of using Diplomatic Security officers or hiring new Security officers or relying on U.S. military personnel, the Bush Administration has contracted with firms like Blackwater, Triple Canopy, and others for people capable of conducting personnel security details. State Department is not about to curtail the contract with Blackwater, who is tightly wired into Washington. Plus, State Department simply does not have the bodies available to carry out the security mission.

Second problem. The Iraqi government has zero power to enforce a decision to oust a firm like Blackwater. For starters, Blackwater has a bigger air force and more armored vehicles then the Iraqi Army and police put together. As Spencer Ackerman reported, Blackwater's little bird helicopter (an aircraft normally used by U.S. special operations forces) that was firing mini guns at Iraqi targets on the ground this past weekend.

Remember, Blackwater is one of over forty security contractors in Iraq and if they leave (unlikely) there could be another replacement. Astonishing that Iraqi's don't even have a say in what they want or don't want in their country anymore. A shining definition of the American way. It does poke a hole in the claims that Iraq is a sovereign country too, but many didn't really believe that anyhow.

Blackwater refusing to leave will be the beginning of the end for us there.

This will raise such a shit-storm, every Iraq could turn on us. The situation will get 1000x worse for us there and we'll run out of there with our tails between our legs.

Then Iran will fill the power vacuum.

And Jubelum, Go and look at the Blackwater application page on their website, it's basically looking for people who want more excitement in their lives. Hiring people like that you can't stop from them trying to make their own excitement...and they have no recourse for what they do over here. They're not accountable to anyone.

[Bergermeister]

All the security companies will be reviewed.

One of the biggest problems, however is a little article written by the US that sorta makes you wonder:

"Order No. 17, a law issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq before the Iraqis regained sovereignty in June 2004, gave the companies immunity from Iraqi prosecution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AsXeqNX15VO5CFSDB6dm8VGs0NUE

[segovius]

All the security companies will be reviewed.

One of the biggest problems, however is a little article written by the US that sorta makes you wonder:

"Order No. 17, a law issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq before the Iraqis regained sovereignty in June 2004, gave the companies immunity from Iraqi prosecution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AsXeqNX15VO5CFSDB6dm8VGs0NUE

It's almost like the US does not want a democratic Iraq isn't it?

If you started from day one of the invasion to make a plan for utter chaos and prevent democracy I doubt you could come up with something more effective in that direction than the US's actions since that time.

[e1618978]

This is a discussion of the mercenaries that are over there, not the guys honestly trying to help build the country via public works projects.

A lot of the Blackwater mercenaries are US police officers, who are over there because they were offered so much money that they could not refuse. The cop husband of one of my co-workers wanted to go, but she vetoed it, and he is a regular nice guy - not a sociopath or something.

From the description on CNN, the blackwater people were attacked while driving, and fought back. I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.

[segovius]

I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.

Exactly, they were only Iraqis after all...granted they were unarmed civilians but they can't have much of a life expectancy anyway can they?

Blackwater probably did them a favour...

[e1618978]

Exactly, they were only Iraqis after all...granted they were unarmed civilians but they can't have much of a life expectancy anyway can they?

Blackwater probably did them a favour...

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.

[segovius]

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight?.

Umm....don't tell me,...I got it, is the answer "start blasting away at un-armed civilians"?

[e1618978]

Umm....don't tell me,...I got it, is the answer "start blasting away at un-armed civilians"?

I don't think that happened, at least based on everything that I have seen about the incident.

[segovius]

I don't think that happened, at least based on everything that I have seen about the incident.

Well, 'based on everything you have read' is a fish of a different colour...

[e1618978]

Well, 'based on everything you have read' is a fish of a different colour...

Well, point me to something that backs up your point. At this point you are just an old lady gossiping in the market.

[southside grabowski]

What do you folks want? These guys are operating in a war zone. They are not park police at Yosemite. They are paid to protect their clients from heavily armed forces.

[@_@ Artman]

Well, point me to something that backs up your point. At this point you are just an old lady gossiping in the market.

For starters, Blackwater has a bigger air force and more armored vehicles then the Iraqi Army and police put together. As Spencer Ackerman reported, Blackwater's little bird helicopter (an aircraft normally used by U.S. special operations forces) that was firing mini guns at Iraqi targets on the ground this past weekend. (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/17/144417/365)

They even have air support. Hell, they even want to expand that air force (http://www.declineandfall.net/2007/08/coming-to-state-near-you-blackwater-air.html). This "company" is growing by leaps and bounds. And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062907J.shtml).

[e1618978]

They even have air support. Hell, they even want to expand that air force (http://www.declineandfall.net/2007/08/coming-to-state-near-you-blackwater-air.html). This "company" is growing by leaps and bounds. And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062907J.shtml).

Exactly how is that evidence that they deliberately opened fire on unarmed civilians? Argentina has an even bigger army, they must have done it!

Seriously, I think that you and Segovious have some kind of logic problems here. There is no way that any of the evidence that you are giving supports your arguments at all, it is kind of like somebody arguing "Cheese is tasty, so the cheese makers must be Blue!".

[@_@ Artman]

Exactly how is that evidence that they deliberately opened fire on unarmed civilians? Argentina has an even bigger army, they must have done it!

Seriously, I think that you and Segovious have some kind of logic problems here. There is no way that any of the evidence that you are giving supports your arguments at all, it is kind of like somebody arguing "Cheese is tasty, so the cheese makers must be Blue!".

'Fair probe' vow on Iraq gunfight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7000018.stm)

The convoy carrying officials from the US State Department came under attack at about 1230 local time on Sunday as it passed through Nisoor Square in the predominantly Sunni neighbourhood of Mansour.

The Blackwater security guards "opened fire randomly at citizens" after mortars landed near their vehicles, killing eight people and wounding 13 others, interior ministry officials said.

I'm done with this thread for now, until e1618978 and southside grabowski can cite links to support their undying loyalty to these mercenaries.

[Jubelum]

And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062907J.shtml).

And Special Forces Veteran.

That article is RICH- "the SS of Christian Fascism" - stop before I squirt this latte out of my nose... :lol:

[MarcUK]

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.

well the smartest thing to do would not be there in the first place.

Tell me, when China invades the USA, because they are the new superpower with weapons so advanced your military is completely powerless, are the US citizens just going to carry on with their happy little lives and accept their new overlords?

Thinking about it, the answer is probably yes.

[@_@ Artman]

And Special Forces Veteran.

That article is RICH- "the SS of Christian Fascism" - stop before I squirt this latte out of my nose... :lol:

Once upon a time, there was a Prince... (http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/404-new-video-the-tale-of-prince-blackwater-ceo-erik-prince)

[@_@ Artman]

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.

Funny you should mention that. This video was recorded by a KBR truck driver in a convoy of four trucks in 2005 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu4IH7kk6pI), escorted by U.S. troops (KBR provided no security at that time). When they are attacked, the troops do nothing and bail, abandoning him and others to fend for themselves.

More on this ambush (http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/ambush.html).

As the military fails to offer aid, he angrily screams into the radio for help: "I'm fixing to get killed, God dammit! I cannot move! Truck Five cannot move! Copy? I am getting shot! Someone get their ass back here now, please!"

Other drivers in the crippled convoy can be heard on the radio imploring the military for help and screaming "Gun truck! Gun truck! Gun truck!" But the gun truck fails to arrive.

"Sir, I have no gun back here and ... I am by myself," Wheeler, hoping the military will hear his plea, reports into the radio. (KBR employees are forbidden to carry weapons.)

Three KBR truck drivers were killed that day. They are Keven Dagit, 42 (in truck 3), of Jefferson, Iowa; Christopher Lem, 40, (in truck 1) of Lyndon Station, Wisconsin; and Sascha Grenner-Case (in truck 4) of Sierra Vista, Arizona. Wheeler, who lives in Arkansas, was shot and barely survived. Two other drivers, including Terry Steward (in truck 2) of Idaho, were also injured.


Expect this to be par for the course since Blackwater will be out of the picture now.

This suspension has come at an "awkward time (http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Iraq_Blackwater_incident_could_complicate_planned_ 0918.html)" and may undermine withdraw of U.S. troops. I'll say it again, the troops now have to provide security now that Blackwater is out of the picture.

You don't need a crystal ball that this occupation is (and always has been) fucked up.

[e1618978]

I'm done with this thread for now, until e1618978 and southside grabowski can cite links to support their undying loyalty to these mercenaries.

I don't think that "undying loyalty" is accurate, I just believe that the individuals involved are probably not monsters, and that they are innocent until proven guilty. The article you just posted actually has a more incriminating tone than anything I had read previously.

But wait a sec, you continued to post after you were "done with the thread"... 8)

[Jubelum]

Once upon a time, there was a Prince... (http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/404-new-video-the-tale-of-prince-blackwater-ceo-erik-prince)

Pretty slick propaganda... my question is... so what? An ex-navy SEAL who never HAD to serve the country decides to start a company after leaving the teams and is successful and then has the AUDACITY to be politically active. The SHAME!

I'm sure you'll cover Soros and Pacific Rim economic war profiteering next, right? I'll be waiting.

[@_@ Artman]

I don't think that "undying loyalty" is accurate, I just believe that the individuals involved are probably not monsters, and that they are innocent until proven guilty. The article you just posted actually has a more incriminating tone than anything I had read previously.

But wait a sec, you continued to post after you were "done with the thread"... 8)

What I posted was important to a response you made (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1144725&postcount=40). If you disregard it you will be on my ignore list.

You seem to be a very intelligent person. Let's see what happens. :smokey:

[e1618978]

What I posted was important to a response you made (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1144725&postcount=40). If you disregard it you will be on my ignore list.

You seem to be a very intelligent person. Let's see what happens. :smokey:

It didn't seem to apply to anything I was saying. If US troops fled under fire, and Blackwater troops did not under the same conditions, how does that say anything bad about Blackwater?

[@_@ Artman]

It didn't seem to apply to anything I was saying. If US troops fled under fire, and Blackwater troops did not under the same conditions, how does that say anything bad about Blackwater?

co·nun·drum (k-nndrm) n.
1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma


Ban on Ground Travel for U.S. Diplomats in Baghdad (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14520782)

The U.S. embassy in Baghdad has halted all ground travel for its diplomats following the Iraqi government's decision to temporarily ban the security company Blackwater USA.

The embassy decision, which suspends all land travel by U.S. diplomats and other civilian officials outside the heavily fortified Green Zone, comes amid growing Iraqi outrage with Blackwater. The security company was involved in a shootout on Sunday in which Iraqi officials now say at least 20 civilians were killed...

Details of the weekend shootings haven't been released, but The New York Times reported late Tuesday that a preliminary review by Iraq's Ministry of Interior found that violence erupted as Blackwater security guards fired at a car when it did not heed a policeman's call to stop, killing a couple and their infant. The report said that Blackwater helicopters had also fired.


The Iraqi Ministry of Defense said that 20 Iraqis were killed, higher than the 11 dead reported earlier.

The newspaper said the report was presented to the Iraqi Cabinet and, though unverified, seemed to contradict an account offered by Blackwater that the guards were responding to militants who had opened fire on State Department personnel. Iraqi police have said a car bomb exploded near a State Department convoy and that Blackwater guards began shooting.

Iraq: The mess continues.

[segovius]

Looks like Blackwater are back in business. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7006697.stm)

So much for respecting Iraqi sovereignty! :lol:

Even though they were found 100% guilty by an interior ministry report!

The interior ministry report, based on testimony from witnesses, concluded that Blackwater guards in Baghdad's Nisour Square started shooting after two mortar rounds landed nearby.

"They started shooting randomly from four positions in the square, killing 11 civilians and injuring 12 other," said interior ministry spokesman Maj Gen Abdul-Karim Khalaf.

"The first one who was killed was a driver who failed to stop and then his wife," Maj Gen Khalaf said.

The report also calls for the lifting of legal immunity for foreign security companies operating in Iraq.

[sammi jo]

The FBI defines terrorism as follows:

The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

Blackwater's activities map onto this definition as much as those of al Qaeda, or Hamas, etc. They should be classified by the international community as a terrorist organization, that is, if the international community had any collective balls and integrity... which (as of yet) is not in evidence.

:mad:

[Bergermeister]

That would create an interesting problem:

GW (King George): From this day... any nation that supports terrorists will be regarded as a hostile nation... (or something like that).


The US would have to declare itself a hostile nation!!! I wonder if Texas would secede?

[ronaldo]

The FBI defines terrorism as follows:


Blackwater's activities map onto this definition as much as those of al Qaeda, or Hamas, etc. They should be classified by the international community as a terrorist organization, that is, if the international community had any collective balls and integrity... which (as of yet) is not in evidence.

:mad:

Give me a break. They are civilian security forces and they will and should defend themselves when attacked.:mad:

[@_@ Artman]

Give me a break. They are civilian security forces and they will and should defend themselves when attacked.:mad:

Wow. A lot of "hard guys" being all balls-out in supporting a group of mercenaries, great. :no:

[Akumulator]

If you don't know, you should not be speaking with such "authority" in this thread.


I have never pretended to speak on "authority" in this forum, unlike many who post here. I mearly post my opinion. I have no knowledge of the history of Blackwater and honestly care little, I was only talking about the symbolism of the skull and cross bones that they flaunted, and my opinion of what that message conveyed to the people of the region.

[@_@ Artman]

Feds target Blackwater in weapons probe (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_on_go_co/us_blackwater_probe)

WASHINGTON - Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.

[Bergermeister]

Give me a break. They are civilian security forces and they will and should defend themselves when attacked.:mad:

It looks like they might not have been attacked (or at least that they fired first, unprovoked):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070923/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=Alfy8vQK5eRv3RjU6MCmay2s0NUE

Oops. Somebody is lying.

...and Blackwater has the support of Teh Administration, Inc.

[Northgate]

Pretty slick propaganda... my question is... so what? An ex-navy SEAL who never HAD to serve the country decides to start a company after leaving the teams and is successful and then has the AUDACITY to be politically active. The SHAME!

I'm sure you'll cover Soros and Pacific Rim economic war profiteering next, right? I'll be waiting.

Man. I hope that "standard" applies to everyone across the political spectrum. Somehow I'm sure it won't.

[Jubelum]

Man. I hope that "standard" applies to everyone across the political spectrum. Somehow I'm sure it won't.

It does... thanks. 8-)

[segovius]

Uh-oh.....now it looks like Blackwater have been involved in smuggling illegal weapons. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008703.stm)

These weapon would have been for the use of the terrorist group the PKK - but it's ok, these are good terrorists (ie not Iranian or Syrian fighters).

:no:

[Jubelum]

Uh-oh.....now it looks like Blackwater have been involved in smuggling illegal weapons. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008703.stm)

These weapon would have been for the use of the terrorist group the PKK - but it's ok, these are good terrorists (ie not Iranian or Syrian fighters).

:no:

may have been involved. If proven true, people who knew will be brought to justice. You can be sure of that.

And since when was the term "terrorist" OK in the lexicon... I thought these were "people of differing opinions using legitimate means" or "the justified resistors of occupation." Terrorists? I didn't know there were any terrorists outside the US and Israeli army? :???:

[segovius]

may have been involved. If proven true, people who knew will be brought to justice. You can be sure of that.

And since when was the term "terrorist" OK in the lexicon... I thought these were "people of differing opinions using legitimate means" or "the justified resistors of occupation." Terrorists? I didn't know there were any terrorists outside the US and Israeli army? :???:

Actually I have quite a bit of sympathy with the PKKs cause - particularly the genocidal pogrom waged against them for decades by the Turks - and do not regard them as terrorists.

I was using the term in the sense of 'people who are on the US's terrorist list'.

Btw, as an aside this is another area where things will blow back in Bush's face; the US opposes the PKK and supports the Turks who oppress the Kurds.

But they also covertly arm and support the PKK (that is a fact btw - the only question re this latest Blackwater scandal is whether they were smuggling arms this time and if they were then WHO they were destined for) - I know it's called divide and rule but it's not a game Bush has the skill to play...it WILL implode, question is merely when and how.

[Bergermeister]

may have been involved. If proven true, people who knew will be brought to justice. You can be sure of that.



By whom? The same people who told us that there were WMDs in Iraq? The US government has hired these people and made a law that prevents them from being held accountable to Iraqi law (despite the fact that they happen to work in Iraq, which is now a sovereign country), and I would be wary of any smuggling (if it occurred) and would not believe it to be limited to a few individuals.

There will be a few fall guys, of course, but the arms will continue to flow and those ultimately responsible won't be touched.

[@_@ Artman]

"'cause that's how i work" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I)

[Bergermeister]

"'cause that's how i work" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I)

God help the world if this guy is in the WH.

[segovius]

"'cause that's how i work" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I)

Perhaps one of the most chilling videos I've yet to see.......the horror in the understated implications is verging on the incomprehensible....

[Jubelum]

There will be a few fall guys, of course, but the arms will continue to flow and those ultimately responsible won't be touched.

How can we get you "satisfaction" in this episode? What specifically do you want done?

[Jubelum]

it WILL implode, question is merely when and how.

Seems that in our history we have quite a record of getting into untenable situations where logic necessarily fails. The Wahabi/Saudi problem, and it appears the PKK, are just two.

[Northgate]

may have been involved. If proven true, people who knew will be brought to justice. You can be sure of that.

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Oh my god :lol::lol::lol: can't breathe :lol::lol::lol: tears running down my face.

Phew. That was a good one.

[Jubelum]

That was a good one.

I'll ask you the same question. What will get you satisfaction? Having all of Blackwater drawn and quartered in public? Tar and feathering? Lifetime imprisonment for all Blackwater operators? Just say the word- what will make you happy?

You should have more faith in your own efforts... you can see your perceived justice done if enough people see the world your way. Apparently, according to so many of you, at least 60-70% of the country is upset about Iraq- it should be no problem to bring those responsible to justice.

Would a congressional investigation make you happy? No matter what it found, you'd claim a cover-up. So please, how do you think this should be disposed of... please tell us with clear, specific, not rhetorical steps that even Dubya can follow. Do you have a plan to deal with this, or do you just want the issue?

I think I know, but I'll wait for *someone* to put together an answer.

[@_@ Artman]

Would a congressional investigation make you happy? No matter what it found, you'd claim a cover-up. So please, how do you think this should be disposed of... please tell us with clear, specific, not rhetorical steps that even Dubya can follow. Do you have a plan to deal with this, or do you just want the issue?

I think I know, but I'll wait for *someone* to put together an answer.

Yes, an investigation. Yes for justice. Though I won't expect much. There has to be some action involved whether the outcome is good or bad. If we ignore the crimes then they'll just continue and get worse.

Again, this administration thought this was another bright idea to hire contractors to do the military's job. Chalk up another for the never ending list of failures.

[Northgate]

I'll ask you the same question. What will get you satisfaction? Having all of Blackwater drawn and quartered in public? Tar and feathering? Lifetime imprisonment for all Blackwater operators? Just say the word- what will make you happy?

You should have more faith in your own efforts... you can see your perceived justice done if enough people see the world your way. Apparently, according to so many of you, at least 60-70% of the country is upset about Iraq- it should be no problem to bring those responsible to justice.

Would a congressional investigation make you happy? No matter what it found, you'd claim a cover-up. So please, how do you think this should be disposed of... please tell us with clear, specific, not rhetorical steps that even Dubya can follow. Do you have a plan to deal with this, or do you just want the issue?

I think I know, but I'll wait for *someone* to put together an answer.

Just good old plain accountability. That's all I want.

Which is actually a pretty conservative sensibility.

[segovius]

BlackwaterGate just won't go away (not till it gets swept under the carpet anyway). Now a Military Officila is claiming it could be Worse Than Abu Ghraib (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/63604/).

And meanwhile - despite the 'guarantee' earlier in this post that the perps will be 'brought to justice', Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has ordered Blackwater not to answer any questions from lawmakers.

The State Department has interceded in a congressional investigation of Blackwater USA, the private security firm accused of killing Iraqi civilians last week, ordering the company not to disclose information about its Iraq operations without approval from the Bush administration, according to documents revealed Tuesday.

In a letter sent to a senior Blackwater executive Thursday, a State Department contracting official ordered the company "to make no disclosure of the documents or information" about its work in Iraq without permission.

:no:

[Gon]

Suppose the contract with Blackwater USA would include provisions that call for them to report any use of force incidents in a very tight timeframe and in detail, and that result in a very heavy fine to be immediately subtracted from payments to Blackwater for every individual unreported incident that comes out.

You could apply this to civilian casualties as well.

This makes sense on a conceptual level because Blackwater is in addition to their concrete duties doing PR of sorts on behalf of their customer, the military. If they piss off the local populace, the customer gets worse value for its money. If they don't report the incidents they get in, the customer has no oversight and must assume the worst, again worse value.

This would give the military at least one practical reason to research incidents thoroughly.

If they're concerned about propaganda angle, and of course they are, they wouldn't even need to publish any details or press criminal charges. Just the threat of monetary impact could change how Blackwater et al. conducts themselves in Iraq.

Comments?

[@_@ Artman]

This makes sense on a conceptual level because Blackwater is in addition to their concrete duties doing PR of sorts on behalf of their customer, the military.

First of all, their "customers" aren't the military, it's their stockholders. Blackwater is a business. Their purpose is to make a profit. They do so by offering a service. Like any business, the first loyalty of the management and owners (stockholders) is to the company, not to the company's clients, which in this case are agencies within the U.S. government. Of course, Blackwater knows that their bottom line depends on serving the needs of their customers, but that's different in a not-so-subtle way to the loyalties that the members of our Armed Forces have towards our country.

And the U.S. government's response?

Blackwater Inquiry Blocked by State Dept., Official Says (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/washington/26contractor.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=world&adxnnlx=1190833762-tR0yaCFr8ySFnj2cSn0e2w)

The Democratic chairman of a House committee complained Tuesday that the State Department was blocking his panel’s efforts to investigate the private security firm Blackwater USA and its operations in Iraq.

The department described the situation as a “misunderstanding.”

In a letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Rep. Henry A. Waxman of California, the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, wrote that the State Department had prevented Blackwater from cooperating.

“Blackwater has informed the committee that a State Department official directed Blackwater not to provide documents relevant to the committee’s investigation into the company’s activities in Iraq without the prior written approval of the State Department,” Mr. Waxman’s letter stated. The letter was made available to the news media on Tuesday.

As stated in the Constitution, the Congress has the power of oversight and should be held responsible for investigating situations such as this. The fact Congress is being prevented from doing so by the Executive branch is denying the very thing that the supporters of the Iraq war are so intent on instituting in Iraq: DEMOCRACY.

How many times do I have to use failure until somebody realizes it's true? :mad:

[sammi jo]

BlackwaterGate just won't go away (not till it gets swept under the carpet anyway). Now a Military Officila is claiming it could be Worse Than Abu Ghraib (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/63604/).

And meanwhile - despite the 'guarantee' earlier in this post that the perps will be 'brought to justice', Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has ordered Blackwater not to answer any questions from lawmakers.

Secrecy always invites suspicion, and for obvious reasons. The purpose of cagey, shifty or 'no comment' type 'responses' from officials is far more often to prevent disclosure of illegal activities, or conduct that would be damaging to political careers, left, right or center. The need for secrecy due to bona fide "national security" concerns run a very very long way behind. This is default with any government, in any part of the world. The United States made the right step some years ago by passing the Freedom of Information Act, but the conduct of the current administration as regards secrecy by default is quite breathtaking. I cannot see the FOIA lasting much longer, especially in its original intent and format.

[Jubelum]

First of all, their "customers" aren't the military, it's their stockholders. Blackwater is a business.

Actually, stockholders and customers are two different groups. I am both an Apple stockholder and customer. I am a customer of GM but not a stockholder. Operators are responsible to their owners, who are in turn responsible to those that hired the company, in this case the US Military and State Dept.

[Jubelum]

I cannot see the FOIA lasting much longer, especially in its original intent and format.

You're right about that!

[@_@ Artman]

Actually, stockholders and customers are two different groups. I am both an Apple stockholder and customer. I am a customer of GM but not a stockholder. Operators are responsible to their owners, who are in turn responsible to those that hired the company, in this case the US Military and State Dept.

Good point. So if I own a GM car I am a customer. Blackwater's customers are the people they protect. That would be...businessmen, diplomats, truck drivers and politicians. Not the Iraqi people. That's the U.S. Military's job. :\...

[Jubelum]

Good point. So if I own a GM car I am a customer. Blackwater's customers are the people they protect. That would be...businessmen, diplomats, truck drivers and politicians. Not the Iraqi people. That's the U.S. Military's job. :\...

Well.. it depends on the circumstance, but on general principle, I'd say that is correct... Iraqi civilians are probably at the bottom of the tangential protection list. In many cases, the insurgency within the Iraqi people is the enemy... making for situations like these.

[Aquatic]

Umm....don't tell me,...I got it, is the answer "start blasting away at un-armed civilians"?



Maybe. I wouldn't know until I was there. Can you really know, until you're there and put to the test? Honestly?

One thing is certain, it IS a Wild West. It's a shit storm. People love to say there are no good options but I think often these are politicians that don't really know what that means. It means death. Death and worse. It's grim. I think a draft may eventually happen again in the US. At least it's a possibility. :(

[dfiler]

Just good old plain accountability. That's all I want.

Which is actually a pretty conservative sensibility.Exactly, lack of accountability is the entire problem with how the US is now using mercenaries.

When soldiers are accused of atrocities, the situation can be investigated and dealt with in compliance with military law and international treaties. "Civilian contractors" (mercenaries) have no such checks and balances according to the US government. Our government is using "civilian contractors" partly for economic reasons but also to side-step all kinds of international conventions on the conduct of soldiers in a war zone.

Checks and balances have been removed and this war is being partially waged by mercenaries with zero accountability.

[@_@ Artman]

Blackwater Tops All Firms in Iraq in Shooting Rate (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/world/middleeast/27contractor.html?ei=5065&en=a3a140f466308d43&ex=1191556800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print)

The American security contractor Blackwater USA has been involved in a far higher rate of shootings while guarding American diplomats in Iraq than other security firms providing similar services to the State Department, according to Bush administration officials and industry officials.

Blackwater is now the focus of investigations in both Baghdad and Washington over a Sept. 16 shooting in which at least 11 Iraqis were killed. Beyond that episode, the company has been involved in cases in which its personnel fired weapons while guarding State Department officials in Iraq at least twice as often per convoy mission as security guards working for other American security firms, the officials said.

The disclosure came as the Pentagon said Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates had sent a team of officials to Iraq to get answers to questions about the use of American security contractors there.

The State Department keeps reports on each case in which weapons were fired by security personnel guarding American diplomats in Iraq. Officials familiar with the internal State Department reports would not provide the actual statistics, but they indicated that the records showed that Blackwater personnel were involved in dozens of episodes in which they had resorted to force.

The officials said that Blackwater’s incident rate was at least twice that recorded by employees of DynCorp International and Triple Canopy, the two other United States-based security firms that have been contracted by the State Department to provide security for diplomats and other senior civilians in Iraq.

The State Department would not comment on most matters relating to Blackwater, citing the current investigation. But Sean McCormack, the department’s spokesman, said that of 1,800 escort missions by Blackwater this year, there had been “only a very small fraction, very small fraction, that have involved any sort of use of force.”

In 2005, DynCorp reported 32 shootings during about 3,200 convoy missions, and in 2006 that company reported 10 episodes during about 1,500 convoy missions. While comparable Blackwater statistics were not available, government officials said the firm’s rate per convoy mission was about twice DynCorp’s.

The State Department’s incident reports have not been made public, and Blackwater refused to provide its own data on cases in which its personnel used their weapons while guarding American diplomats. The State Department is in the process of providing at least some of the data to Congress. The administration and industry officials who agreed to discuss the broad rate of Blackwater’s involvement in violent events would not disclose the specific numbers.

“The incident rate for Blackwater is higher, there is a distinction,” said a senior American government official who insisted on anonymity in order to discuss a delicate, continuing investigation. “The real question that is open for discussion is why.”

A Blackwater spokeswoman declined to comment.

[Jubelum]

Blackwater Tops All Firms in Iraq in Shooting Rate (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/world/middleeast/27contractor.html?ei=5065&en=a3a140f466308d43&ex=1191556800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print)

Mmmkay... let's see here... "shooting rate."

First we control for the value of the target guarded, divided by the coefficient of risk for geographical areas in which BWUSA operates, times the number of insurgents in those areas...

"shooting rate" ?

Only the NYT could try to pass off a concept like this- a "shooting rate" As if all assignments, areas, and enemies are equal. Blackwater gets tough assignments with high profile people- it no surprise that they have a higher "shooting rate" in defending those high value targets.

Typical Made-for-Murtha soundbite.

Blackwater needs to follow the rules of engagement, be punished civilly and criminally if they do not. No problem there. But to cook up some dumbfucked "shooting rate" bullshit as if it really *means* something is textbook yellow New York Times.

[@_@ Artman]

In addition to the Sept. 16 shooting in the Nisour area of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said Blackwater employees had been involved in six other episodes under investigation. Those episodes left a total of 10 Iraqis dead and 15 wounded, they said.

Many American officials now share the view that Blackwater’s behavior is increasingly stoking resentment among Iraqis and is proving counterproductive to American efforts to gain support for its military efforts in Iraq.

“They’re repeat offenders, and yet they continue to prosper in Iraq,” said Representative Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat who has been broadly critical of the role of contractors in Iraq. “It’s really affecting attitudes toward the United States when you have these cowboy guys out there. These guys represent the U.S. to them and there are no rules of the game for them.”

:rolleyes:

[dfiler]

Mmmkay... let's see here... "shooting rate."

First we control for the value of the target guarded, divided by the coefficient of risk for geographical areas in which BWUSA operates, times the number of insurgents in those areas...

"shooting rate" ?

Only the NYT could try to pass off a concept like this- a "shooting rate" As if all assignments, areas, and enemies are equal. Blackwater gets tough assignments with high profile people- it no surprise that they have a higher "shooting rate" in defending those high value targets.

Typical Made-for-Murtha soundbite.

Blackwater needs to follow the rules of engagement, be punished civilly and criminally if they do not. No problem there. But to cook up some dumbfucked "shooting rate" bullshit as if it really *means* something is textbook yellow New York Times.It sounds like your mind is already made up and are unwilling to consider any more evidence. :(

If blackwater is doing the most killing, I want to know about it and understand why.

[Northgate]

Typical Made-for-Murtha soundbite.

:wow::err:

If you had one ounce of Murtha's background on the battlefield then I'd let this one pass. But you don't.

[Northgate]

It sounds like your mind is already made up and are unwilling to consider any more evidence. :(

Of course his mind is made up. It's from the Times. I mean, they accept ads. With puns in them. And they publish them. In a newspaper.

[Jubelum]

It sounds like your mind is already made up and are unwilling to consider any more evidence. :(

If blackwater is doing the most killing, I want to know about it and understand why.

You're wrong. Go back and read my posts... I want to hear the evidence, see justice done for those that broke the law, and get on with it. My mind is very much made up that way- get the evidence, take the action, and dispose of it. I, too, am ready for a full investigation... to get to the truth, not just the masturbatory headlines. "Shooting rate" needs to be defined further for methods and answers achieved.

But none of that matters. We'll keep it going on forever, with innuendo, rumor, and allegation with nothing getting done. It's not about getting justice... it's about having yet another issue to highlight perceived failures and grounds to further demonize the "crusaders."

There's only one major difference here... I give American forces and the people that my government hires the benefit of the doubt. You don't. That's OK... we all have our reasons.

I want to see wrongdoing exposed and punished, at all levels of the government and its contractors. I've said that since we began here. If the evidence and investigations bear out the allegations, fine, roast 'em. We do have a system to deal with wrongdoing.

[dfiler]

There is nothing wrong with a newspaper reporting on which "civilian contractor" is doing the most killing.

You're right to bring up factors that contribute to BlackWater having the highest body count. But it seems that your hate for this story must be based upon a previous transgression on their part. (real or perceived)

[Jubelum]

:wow::err:

If you had one ounce of Murtha's background on the battlefield then I'd let this one pass. But you don't.

Do you know intimately what I have done in service to this country?

Yoosa sticka to whatcha know.. jes?

[dfiler]

I want to see wrongdoing exposed and punished, at all levels of the government and its contractors. I've said that since we began here. If the evidence and investigations bear out the allegations, fine, roast 'em. We do have a system to deal with wrongdoing.But we don't have a system for policing the actions of "civilian contractors". That's the whole problem, complete lack of accountability. They fall into nobody's jurisdiction and the administration is advising blackwater officials to not answer any questions. That is why it has fallen to newspapers to report on the body count from our "civilian contractors".

[Jubelum]

There is nothing wrong with a newspaper reporting on which "civilian contractor" is doing the most killing.

You're right to bring up factors that contribute to BlackWater having the highest body count. But it seems that your hate for this story must be based upon a previous transgression on their part. (real or perceived)

My distaste for this story is that is glosses over intellectual honesty when tossing around terms like "shooting rate." It is interesting, I agree. But there is precious little in the story that relates to the variables involved. If you are going to use "rate" of anything, your methods should be disclosed and at least somewhat sound. They are not in this case. My bitch is that "shooting rate" is meant to leave in impression that BWUSA is thrill-killing their way across Iraq. If I was guarding the PM or political leaders, people that are high-value kills for the insurgency, you bet that my finger is going to find a trigger more than if I was guarding the XOs swimming pool in the new embassy.

I know a number of BWUSA operators, and they are not hoodlums out looking to kill. They are mostly SF veterans and care deeply about what they do. Are there some runaway Rambos somewhere in the organization?- of course there are, just like any organization. We have a system and means of dealing with such people.

[Jubelum]

But we don't have a system for policing the actions of "civilian contractors". That's the whole problem, complete lack of accountability. They fall into nobody's jurisdiction and the administration is advising blackwater officials to not answer any questions. That is why it has fallen to newspapers to report on the body count from our "civilian contractors".

Iraq may deal with them yet. If not, I am sure that an American attorney will gladly file a wrongful death suit on behalf of the families of the victims. Congress can investigate and subpoena if they see fit. Though they do not fall under the UCMJ, I'd bet that their contract itself has a method outlined for just this case. The Administration and Army do not like bad PR any more than BWUSA.

[dfiler]

My distaste for this story is that is glosses over intellectual honesty when tossing around terms like "shooting rate." It is interesting, I agree. But there is precious little in the story that relates to the variables involved. If you are going to use "rate" of anything, your methods should be disclosed and at least somewhat sound. They are not in this case. My bitch is that "shooting rate" is meant to leave in impression that BWUSA is thrill-killing their way across Iraq. If I was guarding the PM or political leaders, people that are high-value kills for the insurgency, you bet that my finger is going to find a trigger more than if I was guarding the XOs swimming pool in the new embassy.

I know a number of BWUSA operators, and they are not hoodlums out looking to kill. They are mostly SF veterans and care deeply about what they do. Are there some runaway Rambos somewhere in the organization?- of course there are, just like any organization. We have a system and means of dealing with such people.Ah, now I see where you're coming from. You have a emotional connection to people in BlackWater.

No matter if someone is family, friend, or stranger, they must be accountable for their actions. In regard to the topic at hand, we don't know what really went on and we likely never will. The only solution is to place blackwater under someone's jurisdiction so that questionable events can be investigated and dealt with properly.

[Jubelum]

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. You have a emotional connection to people in BlackWater.

No matter if someone is family, friend, or stranger, they must be accountable for their actions. In regard to the topic at hand, we don't know what really went on and we likely never will. The only solution is to place blackwater under someone's jurisdiction so that questionable events can be investigated and dealt with properly.

No, I would not call it emotional. But yes, these are PEOPLE to me, just like the Iraqi Kurds that live a couple of blocks from my place in Austin. I have known a number of their operators on a professional basis for a few years now.

I have always agreed with you that regardless of status, people have to be accountable. And yes, I have long thought, and this situation bears it out, that BWUSA and the like should fall under the UCMJ and should be subject, by law, to very tight controls as terms of their employment.

The failure of BWUSA staff is shared with the failure of our government to set terms that prevent this kind of situation.

[dfiler]

So we agree? Who would have known? ;)
It was those first couple of hateful and emotional tirades that got me to argue with your posts. :lol:

I'll summarize my position with this:

Military firepower with a license to kill is bad without external oversight. I can't believe we allow companies to fly gun-ships around foreign countries and gun people down, all the while purposefully making them accountable to absolutely nobody. The gunned down people may have deserved it. But we will never know with the system set up the way it is now.

[Bergermeister]

I like that. I might sleep better at night knowing that those wielding a pen are more devious and dangerous than those carrying a gun.

[Jubelum]

I like that. I might sleep better at night knowing that those wielding a pen are more devious and dangerous than those carrying a gun.

Operators implement policy, often with deadly force when necessary. Policy makers send people into war zones. They create the wars, they profit from them, and they set the terms. Politicians have always been more dangerous than armies, in and of themselves. Each chess piece cannot see the totality of the game unfold... the chess master does that.

[screener]

You-all deserve this, :"Fucking Americans"

Do like I say, demand, not what I do.

Can't you see that the world is watching?

Don't you understand the world view of the USA.?

Are you all like SDW, "Who cares what they think".

Jubelum, you trust Blackwater operatives, people who know nothing but killing, over survivors of said killings?

You would think people trained in the field of warfare would be only to glad to get out of it after service, unless they were bent that way, hence Blackwater employees.

Not all, but the "RUSH" has it's allure.

[Jubelum]

You-all deserve this, :"Fucking Americans"

Cute.

Jubelum, you trust Blackwater operatives, people who know nothing but killing, over survivors of said killings?

You would think people trained in the field of warfare would be only to glad to get out of it after service, unless they were bent that way, hence Blackwater employees.

Not all, but the "RUSH" has it's allure.

Where to start with this steaming pile... lemmesee...

For one, this has nothing to do with "trust." It has to do with generally hard-working and brave people, in my opinion, who find among themselves, perhaps, people who have gone off the reservation and should be punished by all means available...Mmkay?

And BWUSA staff are trained in a HELL of a lot more than killing. They train in dozens of areas that relate to protecting people that other people are trying to murder. Did you also know that they spend weeks learning Islamic customs and cultural sensitivity before they deploy? You've got your mind made up- don't let the reality of what these people do get in the way. They are baby-killing crusading murderers out looking for innocent people to kill. Just keep on with that.

And to address your final gleaming jewel... Blackwater employs people that are former special forces and general military staff. These folks, a lot of them, have spent at least 6-8 years before Blackwater serving the country and learning a skill set. They have experience and skills that would otherwise be lost to the ongoing effort. I think it is a much better use of all that expensive training and experience to keep those people in the loop, and not have to constantly train new people, hoping we can keep some good ones.

Yes, there are some high-speed types that gravitate toward companies like Blackwater... who should they recruit with, the Campfire Girls? If you want talent in the areas in which BWUSA operates, you go looking for people exiting military service with the skills you need.

[screener]

Cute.



Where to start with this steaming pile... lemmesee...

For one, this has nothing to do with "trust." It has to do with generally hard-working and brave people, in my opinion, who find among themselves, perhaps, people who have gone off the reservation and should be punished by all means available...Mmkay?

And BWUSA staff are trained in a HELL of a lot more than killing. They train in dozens of areas that relate to protecting people that other people are trying to murder. Did you also know that they spend weeks learning Islamic customs and cultural sensitivity before they deploy? You've got your mind made up- don't let the reality of what these people do get in the way. They are baby-killing crusading murderers out looking for innocent people to kill. Just keep on with that.

And to address your final gleaming jewel... Blackwater employs people that are former special forces and general military staff. These folks, a lot of them, have spent at least 6-8 years before Blackwater serving the country and learning a skill set. They have experience and skills that would otherwise be lost to the ongoing effort. I think it is a much better use of all that expensive training and experience to keep those people in the loop, and not have to constantly train new people, hoping we can keep some good ones.

Yes, there are some high-speed types that gravitate toward companies like Blackwater... who should they recruit with, the Campfire Girls? If you want talent in the areas in which BWUSA operates, you go looking for people exiting military service with the skills you need.

Don't like "Fucking Americans" huh?
Don't leave the country then, you'll hear it pretty often.

Hiring mercenaries that operate independently and aren't liable for any misdeeds, does not enhance what little credibility the US has left.

They are baby-killing crusading murderers out looking for innocent people to kill. Just keep on with that.

Yeah right, first they have to look at them the wrong way, maybe pick up a shell casing or something. C'mon, that would never happen, oh wait, it did.

Some of the people they hire are,

Blackwater initially hired Fred F. Fielding, who is currently counsel to the President of the United States. It then hired Joseph E. Schmitz as its in-house counsel, who was formerly the Inspector General at the Pentagon. More recently, Blackwater employed Kenneth Starr, famed prosecutor in the Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal. Cofer Black, who was the Director of the CIA Counter-Terrorist Center, was also added as a Blackwater Vice-Chairman.

And if they get themselves killed, the families have no right to find out how,

On March 31, 2004, the Blackwater contractors were burned, beaten, dragged through the streets of Fallujah and their decapitated bodies hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River. Following these gruesome deaths, the surviving family members looked to Blackwater for answers as to how and why their loved ones died. Blackwater refused to give the grieving families any information, and stated that they would need to sue Blackwater to get it, said Donna Zovko, mother of slain Blackwater contractor Jerry Zovko. In January 2005, the families filed suit against Blackwater.

Blackwater files Counter-suit and Moves Case out of Court

In an unusual change of tactics, Blackwater filed a counter-suit, seeking not only $10 million dollars, but also looking to silence the families and keep them out of court, explained Daniel Callahan, the families' lawyer. According to legal documents, Blackwater claims that the mere fact that the families sued the company for wrongful death is a breach of the decedents' contracts.

http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services/4347871-1.html?yahss=114-2974554-4347871

A law unto themselves, business as usual.

Fucking Americans.

[Jubelum]

Don't like "Fucking Americans" huh?
Fucking Americans.

Wow.. thrice cute. I hope this is making you feel much better.

I'm not sure what to tell you, screener... you have an established, if poorly vocalized, view of BWUSA that you have no doubt received from the usual media and have repeated it in a thoughtless nod to the zeitgeist. If not, how did you form these opinions? Let's face it, the trendy "Halliburton" tag line has been sent packing by the new "it" term... "BlackWater"! :lol: I can just imagine Alicia Silverstone proclaiming that "Halliburton is soooo YESTERDAY..."

You should not be surprised that the private sector hires recognized talent from the public sector. This is common globally.

Regarding the famliles, this is a known part of the job. Ask any special forces operator or high-speed contractor. The "Fucking American" government does not reveal what happens to SEALs, Rangers, Force Recon, et al if the subject matter would jeopardize current operations or reveal tactical information. Again, among high-speed operators, this is a term of employment and it is not uncommon to see records sealed for 10-20 years, either by the government or the contractor. Some data from Vietnam is still sealed.

Maybe all the US Military families who have lost family members should sue the government for wrongful death? Sorry, this is a war zone, and everyone there is a volunteer. They know the risks, they agree to the terms, and any military person will tell you how much of their "rights" are personally surrendered to defend those of others. It's part of the reason that a *few* of us take their side unless we have a reason not to, and call them "heroes" not "murderers." Pick your poison.

Would congressional hearings be enough? Fines? Jail time? Executions of Blackwater staff?
You have a laundry list of alleged transgressions, tell us what you'd like to see done.

The group you describe shares precious little with the people I know who actually do the work. I'm not going to change your mind. You're certainly not going to change mine. I stand by my previously posted content, and you can stick to your (in my opinion trendy) opinions.

[@_@ Artman]

$15B narcoterrorism war to be outsourced (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/military_isr_narco_091407/)

The U.S. Defense Department has invited five contractors to bid on elements of a new, multibillion dollar effort to combat the global flow of illegal drugs allegedly used to finance terrorism.

Awarded by the Pentagon’s Counter-Narcoterrorism Technology Program Office in Dahlgren, Va., the contract vehicle has a potential value of $15 billion over five years. One participant is ARINC, a Maryland-based provider of airline communications systems.

“This gives us the opportunity to bid on this work,” said Linda Hartwig, an ARINC spokesperson. “We don’t have a lot of details yet, but we do know that this is an expansion of what [the U.S] is already doing to fight drug trafficking, and that 80 percent of the work will be overseas.”

Hartwig said the other participating vendors are defense giants Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon, and security contractor Blackwater USA. Blackwater confirmed its participation, but the other vendors did not respond to inquiries.

First of all, who the fuck thought of the name "Counter-Narcoterrorism Technology Program Office"? It sounds like something from a Philip K. Dick novel. Bring on the Agent Freds with their scramble suits...

http://www.mtv.com/movies/photos/s/scanner_darkly_060303/flip-o.jpg

Let's look at the flow of money...

What they claim is happening:

Drug users -> Pushers -> Drug Cartels -> Terrorists

What's really happening:

Tax payers -> IRS/Govt -> Hired mercenaries -> Private Prisons -> Defense contractors

Either way, money goes from average Joe's into the hands of powerful groups that want to perpetuate the cycle. I would say might as well dope the average Joe's before the leeching begins.

<tinfoil?>Private companies will get involved in distributing drugs too. They go public, then they take the illicit profits from drugs and pass it off as legitimate earnings. Since earnings on paper go up, their stock price goes up. And just when the bubble is about to burst, the founders sell, take their profits, and do it all over again.

It's especially lucrative when the private company gets to be in enforcement, because now they get to enjoy a new supply (they keep what they interdict) and they have a cover for importing back into the states.</tinfoil?>

We've seen this with DynCorp (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=DynCorp). The Colombians busted these rat fucks running drugs and the State Dept. didn't do squat, their business wasn't even paused, they just kept on trafficking. More reading... (http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars1.html)

http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/winter2006/images/features/scanner2-450.jpg

What if they come in through the back door or the bathroom window like that infamous Beatles song?

[screener]

Wow.. thrice cute. I hope this is making you feel much better.

Never used to feel this way, and no, it doesn't make be feel good, just sad.
But really, who cares what anyone except an American thinks, right?

I'm not sure what to tell you, screener... you have an established, if poorly vocalized, view of BWUSA that you have no doubt received from the usual media and have repeated it in a thoughtless nod to the zeitgeist.

They are mercenaries, hired for money, not patriotism.
Not responsible for their actions, thanks to Paul Bremer, allegiance to the company, not the country.
If it walks like a duck,.......

You should not be surprised that the private sector hires recognized talent from the public sector. This is common globally.

Culled from the Administration that allows them to grow and expand with a majority of the no-bid contracts they enjoy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA

Regarding the famliles, this is a known part of the job.

Blackwater is suing the families for asking what happened.

It's part of the reason that a *few* of us take their side unless we have a reason not to, and call them "heroes" not "murderers." Pick your poison.

Hired guns, heroes, really?

Would congressional hearings be enough? Fines? Jail time? Executions of Blackwater staff?
You have a laundry list of alleged transgressions, tell us what you'd like to see done.

Make them responsible for their actions. Not untouchable.

I stand by my previously posted content, and you can stick to your (in my opinion trendy) opinions.

Trendy?
By not trusting mercenaries? Trendy?
At least it's not as stupid as unpatriotic, yeah, it is.

[Jubelum]

They are mercenaries, hired for money, not patriotism.

How many BWUSA staff do you know? You cannot speak with any autority concerning the motives. Again, your blanket indictment should not be subject to change just because of a few stupid facts.

Not responsible for their actions,

This remains to be seen, screener. This case has not been finished. Nor will it be finished for a long time.

no-bid contracts

Here we go again... more buzz-word rhetoric. Do you understand how at least some things work regarding contractors? Who else has the skill set that Blackwater does? Please, tell me. Who else has the broad range of services that Halliburton does? That any of these evil demonic companies do? You see, there is no one else that has the range of expertise that Halliburton or Blackwater do. If there were 10 companies that did exactly what either of the two aforementioned companies do, I'd be all about a competitive bid process. Bidding protects the value to the taxpayer... in cases where there are a number of possible alternatives. But hey, keep screaming "no bid contracts" as some kind of ranting slur because it reveals how little you know about the situation.

Blackwater is suing the families for asking what happened.
I read that... responded to it, and feel that this has already been addressed. They are suing the families for posthumous breach of contract on behalf of their family members. The suits are against the estates, not the families.

Hired guns, heroes, really?
If you're going to go there, at least get my argument correct:

any military person will tell you how much of their "rights" are personally surrendered to defend those of others. It's part of the reason that a *few* of us take their side unless we have a reason not to, and call them "heroes" not "murderers."

Make them responsible for their actions. Not untouchable.

Agreed.

[screener]

Jubelum;1149403]How many BWUSA staff do you know? You cannot speak with any autority concerning the motives. Again, your blanket indictment should not be subject to change just because of a few stupid facts.

Blanket indictment?
Lets just ignore the stupid facts.
How 3D of you.

, This remains to be seen, screener. This case has not been finished. Nor will it be finished for a long time.

And the killing continues, great.

Here we go again... more buzz-word rhetoric. Do you understand how at least some things work regarding contractors? Who else has the skill set that Blackwater does? Please, tell me.

They got the so called skill because of Bush's polices, hiring those sympathetic, towing the Bush line.
.
The suits are against the estates, not the families.

That makes it better.
Throw the families out on the streets because they want to know what happened.


If you're going to go there, at least get my argument correct:

Read Artmans post about Blackwater advertising, then tell me who is joining up.

Agreed.

Which is what this thread is all about.

And then there is the question of the arms supplied to the PPK that Turkey is complaining about.

The loss of weapons when Petreus was in charge of training the Iraqis.

Mercenaries have no loyalty but the dollar, low as it is.
Perhaps they will start requesting their pay in Euros.

And you wonder why most around the world say "Fucking Americans" when asked about the War on Terror.

Kinda like the police thread, Fuck the cops, they only look out for themselves.

[Jubelum]

They got the so called skill because of Bush's polices, hiring those sympathetic, towing the Bush line.

The triiiii-facta! "Bush" - "no bid" - "mercenaries" Ding Ding Ding!

So called? You're looking kinda foolish here... I assure you, these peoples gots the skills.

Please, tell me what you know and/or understand about their skills and what it really takes to do the job. I'm waiting for you to convince me that you have a concept of what BWUSA actually does, I mean, other than the buzzword accusations that you have come up with.

Any answer to my question about where your beliefs emerge from? Media? Party line? Free floating outrage? Actual knowledge of the reality of... nahhhhh...

[@_@ Artman]

So called? You're looking kinda foolish here... I assure you, these peoples gots the skills.

Here's some videos...

Blackwater USA's Urban Warfare Training Center (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-661068568860424209)

Dunno who, what or where this is but it's goddamn funny. Military Contractor training (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-690380600627371705)

Here's another of - oops, wrong guys (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6391161308556100685)...:smokey:

[screener]

The triiiii-facta! "Bush" - "no bid" - "mercenaries" Ding Ding Ding!

So called? You're looking kinda foolish here... I assure you, these peoples gots the skills.

Please, tell me what you know and/or understand about their skills and what it really takes to do the job. I'm waiting for you to convince me that you have a concept of what BWUSA actually does, I mean, other than the buzzword accusations that you have come up with.

Any answer to my question about where your beliefs emerge from? Media? Party line? Free floating outrage? Actual knowledge of the reality of... nahhhhh...

I should have said, expanded their so called skill set aided by no-bid contracts.
Not that they don't know their talents, skills.

In other words, the company got really, really big, really, really fast because of the money the Bush Admin was making available to Blackwater and others.

Who wouldn't want to invest in a company that was guaranteed contracts, close ties with an Administration that created a self perpetuating war in need of said companies services.

The icing on the cake, no responsibility for employees fucking up.

The "buzzword" accusations are documented for those that aren't afraid to view them.
eg., this thread that no one here seemed interested in.
The Great Iraqi Swindle
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=78172

If it walks like a duck, and some research shows it is, then it's a fucking duck.

Do you form your opinions without research, or simply choose to believe what those in your circle believe.

How can you believe unregulated mercenaries are a good thing.
Because you know some?
There's some 3D thinking.

[Jubelum]

How can you believe unregulated mercenaries are a good thing.
.

Show me where I have said that. Go ahead.

3D thinking.

You don't know the first thing about it... but your post is the sincerest form of flattery. :D

[Jubelum]

IN other news... Blackwater may actually fall under UCMJ due to a Republican amendment in last year's defense authorization bill.
... from Democratic Underground (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1909480).

[FormerLurker]

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. You have a emotional connection to people in BlackWater.

No matter if someone is family, friend, or stranger, they must be accountable for their actions.Slightly O/T - here is a very interesting article on this phenomenon from a rather unlikely source:
http://www.cracked.com/index.php?name=News&sid=2417

[screener]

I know a number of BWUSA operators, and they are not hoodlums out looking to kill.

They joined a private army for a lot more money than the government pays.

Part of the job would require you to shoot at people and get shot at.

If you had a problem with that, why would you join this army?

If you are truly patriotic, why not re-enlist?

[screener]

Show me where I have said that. Go ahead.

So you don't believe the US Government hiring mercenaries is a good thing?

Please, tell me what you know and/or understand about their skills and what it really takes to do the job. I'm waiting for you to convince me that you have a concept of what BWUSA actually does, I mean, other than the buzzword accusations that you have come up with.

Any answer to my question about where your beliefs emerge from? Media? Party line? Free floating outrage? Actual knowledge of the reality of... nahhhhh...

Sounds like you think hiring mercenaries is a good idea.

[Jubelum]

So you don't believe the US Government hiring mercenaries is a good thing?

I have said more than a few times throughout this post that there need to be TIGHT CONTROLS and that anyone fighting on our side should be subject to military justice. You're, as usual, misrepresenting what has been clearly stated.

Sounds like you think hiring mercenaries is a good idea.

Strawman du jour... Neither one of those quotes you posted has anything to do with it being a good idea or not. Both of those quotes deal with your understanding, or lack thereof, of BWUSA. Please, try again.

[@_@ Artman]

Pentagon Issues Blackwater New $92 Million Contract (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/30/blackwater-contract/)

Earlier this month, Blackwater USA was involved in the fatal shooting of 11 Iraqi civilians. While the Iraqi government swiftly condemned the contractor, the Bush administration has continued to back Blackwater’s story that it was “defensive fire.”

Last Thursday, Gen. Peter Pace told reporters, “Blackwater has been a contractor in the past with the department and could certainly be in the future.” The next day, that future was already here. The Pentagon had issued a new list of contracts, including one worth $92 million to Presidential Airways, the “aviation unit of parent company Blackwater.” From the release:

WTF? No wait... "WTF" might have been a good response 6 years ago. Anytime after, say, 2003 the response should be "BAU" (Business As Usual) when someone gets rewarded for getting caught.

[screener]

I have said more than a few times throughout this post that there need to be TIGHT CONTROLS and that anyone fighting on our side should be subject to military justice. You're, as usual, misrepresenting what has been clearly stated.



Strawman du jour... Neither one of those quotes you posted has anything to do with it being a good idea or not. Both of those quotes deal with your understanding, or lack thereof, of BWUSA. Please, try again.

But do you think it's a good idea for the US Government to hire mercenaries, period.

By continuing to extoll the virtues of Blackwater leads me to believe you support Blackwater's presence in Iraq.
Even without tight controls.

From your link in regards to UCM,

In theory, Blackwater contractors could be court martialed for wrong doing, a prospect that should satisfy all critics who insist that private military companies remain unaccountable. However, even before the change there was no lack of applicable laws to which contractors were subject. The truth is that contractors are not above the law, but rather well within the reach of several different codes and regulations and nobody’s exactly sure how one would go about exacting legal remedies against them should they be needed.


We'll see, and then see what Blackwater does.

[@_@ Artman]

Sources: Blackwater contractor wrote first U.S. report on shooting (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/01/blackwater.report/index.html)

A Blackwater contractor wrote an initial U.S. government report about how his colleagues killed Iraqi civilians in a September shooting that strained U.S.-Iraqi relations, government and industry sources told CNN.

...

Blackwater -- which provides security to U.S. diplomats -- says its employees responded properly to an insurgent attack on a convoy, and the State Department initial "spot report" written by the Blackwater contractor underscores that scenario and doesn't mention civilian casualties.

However, that account is at odds with what the Iraqis are saying. A senior Iraqi National Police official participating in the Iraqi governmental probe of the shooting said the Blackwater gunfire was unprovoked and the guards fired randomly, killing and wounding several civilians.

The Blackwater contractor, Darren Hanner, drafted a two-page "spot report" on the letterhead of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security for the embassy's Tactical Operations Center, said a source involved in diplomatic security at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

The TOC -- which tracks and monitors all incidents and movements involving diplomatic security missions -- has outsourced positions to Blackwater and another private firm, the embassy source said.

:lol::\

[AsLan^]

They joined a private army for a lot more money than the government pays.

Part of the job would require you to shoot at people and get shot at.

If you had a problem with that, why would you join this army?

If you are truly patriotic, why not re-enlist?

Because the pay is significantly better than what the government offers. Tax free too :)

Many infantry soldiers get out of the Army specifically to go work for a PMC, others get out to pursue college, focus on their family or whatever.

But, money talks and the PMCs are paying a whole lot these days. You would be stupid to turn down the practically free money if you were in a position to take on one of these jobs.

Even though I'm completely against the war, I would be over there in a heartbeat if it wasn't for my wife. We're talking salaries of around $250,000 a year (actually only the first $82,000 is tax free, but any travel pay, allowances etc. are also tax free). Again, if you have the background and don't mind applying yourself you would have to be retarded not to go, it's free money!

About re-enlisting... many do, the Army is giving lots of incentives for staying in these days but they don't compare to what the PMCs are offering. People staying in usually do so for other reasons, i.e. they like it, they're doing well, they have a family to feed (and contracting can be unreliable at times).

Also, consider that a lot of these highly skilled mercenaries left the Army during the Clinton era (when the Army wasn't doing too much). If they tried to enlist now and come back into the Army, they'd be "needs of the Army" i.e. they'd get made into water purification specialists, veterinarian assistants, or petroleum supply specialists, regardless of their background (no offence to the soldiers serving in those capacities).

I tend to agree with Jubelum on this one. They need to be held accountable, but just because they work for a PMC doesn't necessarily make them bad people.

[screener]

Because the pay is significantly better than what the government offers. Tax free too :)

Many infantry soldiers get out of the Army specifically to go work for a PMC, others get out to pursue college, focus on their family or whatever.

But, money talks and the PMCs are paying a whole lot these days. You would be stupid to turn down the practically free money if you were in a position to take on one of these jobs.

Even though I'm completely against the war, I would be over there in a heartbeat if it wasn't for my wife. We're talking salaries of around $250,000 a year (actually only the first $82,000 is tax free, but any travel pay, allowances etc. are also tax free). Again, if you have the background and don't mind applying yourself you would have to be retarded not to go, it's free money!

About re-enlisting... many do, the Army is giving lots of incentives for staying in these days but they don't compare to what the PMCs are offering. People staying in usually do so for other reasons, i.e. they like it, they're doing well, they have a family to feed (and contracting can be unreliable at times).

Also, consider that a lot of these highly skilled mercenaries left the Army during the Clinton era (when the Army wasn't doing too much). If they tried to enlist now and come back into the Army, they'd be "needs of the Army" i.e. they'd get made into water purification specialists, veterinarian assistants, or petroleum supply specialists, regardless of their background (no offence to the soldiers serving in those capacities).

I tend to agree with Jubelum on this one. They need to be held accountable, but just because they work for a PMC doesn't necessarily make them bad people.

In other words, you don't have a problem killing some one for money, in a situation where you might, inadvertently, kill an innocent.

And by saying you are against the war makes your post even more disgusting.

Fucking Americans.

[AsLan^]

In other words, you don't have a problem killing some one for money, in a situation where you might, inadvertently, kill an innocent.

And by saying you are against the war makes your post even more disgusting.

Fucking Americans.

I'm not a murderer dude, and I wouldn't kill innocent people, even inadvertently.

I was just trying to bring some perspective about why people join these companies, basically, it's because the pay is so high.

[Jubelum]

Fucking Americans.

Cute. Tired, but cute.

[screener]

I'm not a murderer dude, and I wouldn't kill innocent people, even inadvertently.

I was just trying to bring some perspective about why people join these companies, basically, it's because the pay is so high.

Never said you were a murderer, but shit happens when you go to the hell that areas of Iraq have become.
If you believe an innocent wouldn't get killed in a fire-fight, you are truly naive.
You don't get to pick when and where the shooting starts.

I can see a true belief in the war as a reason for going, but just for money?, and not believing in it?

Sorry dude, that's disgusting.

[Jubelum]

But do you think it's a good idea for the US Government to hire mercenaries, period.

By continuing to extoll the virtues of Blackwater leads me to believe you support Blackwater's presence in Iraq. Even without tight controls.


Are you reading what I am typing? Or just playing the broken record one more time?

I am not "Extolling the Virtues" - I am trying to get you to understand, apparently in vain, what BWUSA does, who they are, and how they operate, and how they should be controlled in my opinion. You have no interest in having a discussion on this. Show me ONE fucking place I have said that they should not have tight controls. Another baseless, strawman of an argument.

To review, for you, because you seem to be the only one in the entire thread that does not get it:

1- Blackwater performs a valuable service to the effort.
2- Blackwater allows many veterans to contribute skills and experience after their formal duty is complete.
3. Blackwater should be under tight controls and subject to the UCMJ.
4. Blackwater staff that I know personally are not the kind of people that you are characterizing.

Now, do you have something of substance to discuss, or are you just here to make me rehash the same four statements over and over again?

[screener]

Cute. Tired, but cute.

AsLan^'s post shows what is wrong with private armies and some they attract.

They don't believe in Bush's war, but will go for the money.

I think my "cute" term was entirely appropriate.

[Jubelum]

They don't believe in Bush's war, but will go for the money.


Prove it. Damn it screener, you look so incredibly stupid here. I know a number of these people personally. You are one big fountain of "Bush's War" and "mercenaries" and "murderers." I have yet to meet even one of them that does it just for the money. You have blown this "mercenaries" bugaboo up so big inside your head that it's distorting your thinking. Don't forget that many of these same people VOLUNTEERED in the first damn place to go over there when they were in the US military.

You don't know a damn thing about what they do or do not believe.

I'll tell you like I told Northgate in this very thread... "Yoosa sticka to whatcha know.. jes?"

[screener]

Prove it. Damn it screener, you look so incredibly stupid here. I know a number of these people personally. You are one big fountain of "Bush's War" and "mercenaries" and "murderers." I have yet to meet even one of them that does it just for the money. You have blown this "mercenaries" bugaboo up so big inside your head that it's distorting your thinking. Don't forget that many of these same people VOLUNTEERED in the first damn place to go over there when they were in the US military.

You don't know a damn thing about what they do or do not believe.

I'll tell you like I told Northgate in this very thread... "Yoosa sticka to whatcha know.. jes?"

From AsLan^'s post,
Even though I'm completely against the war, I would be over there in a heartbeat if it wasn't for my wife. We're talking salaries of around $250,000 a year (actually only the first $82,000 is tax free, but any travel pay, allowances etc. are also tax free). Again, if you have the background and don't mind applying yourself you would have to be retarded not to go, it's free money!

See what he said there?

You left out the first line of my post,
AsLan^'s post shows what is wrong with private armies and some they attract.
Don't take things out of context, it may change the whole meaning of what was said.

I also posted this,
I can see a true belief in the war as a reason for going, but just for money?, and not believing in it?
Do you see what I said here?

And I never said "murderers".
Read what I said, not what you think I said.

You admitted earlier that there were probably some "high-speed types", what makes you think there aren't some like AsLan^ that actually are there.

[AsLan^]

What do you think about the regular soldiers over there?

In a way, they're mercenaries too. Soldiers in the US Army are very highly paid by international standards and it's completely voluntary too.

I'm pretty certain that if we paid the same wages other governments pay to their armies (Korean conscripts get about $15 a month) we would have an order of magnitude fewer volunteers.

So what makes them so different from people working for PMCs?

[Jubelum]

Psst... hey, screener....


"Don't take things out of context, it may change the whole meaning of what was said."


:D

[Nightcrawler]

I think the the major problem with privatised forces is this:

The monopoly on violence that states have and which defines them is being broken up.

States have developed a certain legitimacy over the centuries, they have managed to civilise their populations by denying them vigilancy and selfjustice, in exchange for an army-, police- and justice-system, that's controlled by the judiciary, legislative and executive, of which at least the personnel for the latter two are democratically elected.

By allowing privatised forces the rule of law is being denied and the role of the state questioned.

Haven't you watched Robocop?

Nightcrawler

[@_@ Artman]

A single Blackwater security contractor costs the government $1,222 every day to guard U.S. civilian personnel, or $445,000 per year. That's six times the cost of getting a U.S. Army soldier to perform the same function. (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004337.php)

As P.W. Singer observed (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004296.php) last week, private security companies increasingly exist to free up tasks for U.S. troops, ensuring a sort of dependence on contracting occurs for a military coping with the strain of deployments for two wars.

And we want to attack Iran? :rolleyes:

[screener]

Psst... hey, screener....



:D

Show me where I took what you said out of context and changed the gist of what you said.

Like you did to me.

[screener]

What do you think about the regular soldiers over there?

In a way, they're mercenaries too. Soldiers in the US Army are very highly paid by international standards and it's completely voluntary too.

I'm pretty certain that if we paid the same wages other governments pay to their armies (Korean conscripts get about $15 a month) we would have an order of magnitude fewer volunteers.

So what makes them so different from people working for PMCs?

Not the same, mercenaries by definition are guns for hire.

The US Military has a long history of service to their country and I admire them.

[screener]

Blackwater has 861 employees in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/washington/02blackwater.html?hp

Blackwater has dismissed 122 of its employees over the past three years for misuse of weapons, drug or alcohol abuse, lewd conduct or violent behavior, according to the report. It has also terminated workers for insubordination, failure to report incidents or lying about them, and publicly embarrassing the company. One employee was dismissed for showing signs of post-traumatic stress disorder.

That is a pretty high rate don't you think?
Why weren't these guys weeded out before they were hired?

The report by the Democratic majority staff of a House committee adds weight to complaints from Iraqi officials, American military officers and Blackwater’s competitors that company guards have taken an aggressive, trigger-happy approach to their work and have repeatedly acted with reckless disregard for Iraqi life.

[Jubelum]

Show me where I took what you said out of context and changed the gist of what you said.


No problem...

Hired guns, heroes, really?

Misquote. Out of context. I was clearly referring to US Military members.

How can you believe unregulated mercenaries are a good thing.

Strawman- I never said that, nor even hinted at it because I don't believe that.

Sounds like you think hiring mercenaries is a good idea.

I do not believe that we are talking about the same thing... you're hell bent on the entire "unregulated" thing. I think that PMCs serve a useful purpose if proper oversight is in place. Which, for the last time, should be in place with the UCMJ.

Let me bring you back here... do you have anything to add to this (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1150737&postcount=121)?

[Jubelum]

Not the same, mercenaries by definition are guns for hire.

The US Military has a long history of service to their country and I admire them.

Do you think that the soldiers you admire should do it for free? They carry a gun. They get shot at. They do it for a mission. And they get paid. I'm sorry to point out the obvious for ya