The Florida Taser Incident

[southside grabowski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE



This one went too far. Several officers vs this unarmed guy and they taser him?

[@_@ Artman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

This one went too far. Several officers vs this unarmed guy and they taser him?

There is A LOT going on here. First of all he rushed the microphone and then went WAY beyond his allotted time numerous times, then resisted arrest many, many times, more than 5 from what I could tell from the videos. But on the other hand, why didn't several officers just drag him out of there? Tazing him was so wrong.

I'm all for protest and all, but this fellow was a nut-job or had way too much coffee. The fellow should learn something about about public speaking too.

Ah well, it sure isn't the 1960's anymore, that's for sure...here's how it's done right...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/savio.jpg

There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!


Mario Savio's speech before the FSM sit-in 1964 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5346761198973323780)


Also read that a father of a deceased solder was roughed up by some pro-war demonstrators (http://www.indianpad.com/story/106889).

Carlos Arredondo, 47 year old father of two sons, arrived in the nation’s capitol on Monday, 09/10/07 to share a memorial he has made to honor for his eldest son, Alex. Carlos has visited thirty of the United States with the traveling memorial to his son Alexander. Lcpl. Alexander S. Arredondo, USMC was killed on 08/25/04. He was 20 years and 20 days old. The memorial consists of a casket, poster- size photographs of Alex when he graduated from boot camp, before his second tour in Iraq, lying in state at his wake, and a photo of Alex with his younger brother Brian.

Saturday, September 15, 2007 consisted of first a rally, a march towards the capitol and then a die-in. Carlos pulled the memorial along the march route approaching the rotunda near the capitol building. Several of the marchers requested for him to speak about the memorial where a crowd gathered around him. After finishing, several people walked with Carlos as he pulled the memorial. Several pictures of Alex dressed in his blues were attached to the display.

As Carlos passed counter protesters, one man ripped a picture of Alex from the memorial. Carlos leaped on the man to retrieve the picture. It was at that point that approximately five others all began to attack Carlos by kicking him in the head, legs, stomach and back.

The Capitol police bicycle patrol then appeared to break up the fight. Several officers including a female officer were engaged in breaking up the fight and were able to stop any further injuries from occurring. Hannah Jones who was walking with Carlos was also assaulted.

Luckily, those people that immediately moved in to help him, including the police officers, did do a nice job. And those people who were there to peacefully protest the government did a nice job of showing what democracy is all about.

[southside grabowski]

I agree that the guy was wrong, but the cops had the upper hand and did not need to zap him. The cops are lucky the guy is white.

[Fellowship]

Human rights have left the building when nobody stands up for them.

Evil then takes a foothold.

Be it people who think Abortion is no big deal or people who think using a Taser on someone is no big deal. We get what we allow. That is why it is important to speak against abuse no matter where it happens and in a steady manner.

Fellowship

[Fellowship]

I agree that the guy was wrong, but the cops had the upper hand and did not need to zap him. The cops are lucky the guy is white.

Where are Sharpton and Jackson?

Ohhh I forgot... This guy is white so he does not matter to these black folk.

Only blacks matter.

Normally I would not say such a thing but upon reflection of your statement above I felt that you had a point.

I think if I had my 2 cents to share it would be the following:

Standing up for human rights is a universal concept and skin color should not matter with such a universal concept.

Fellows

[@_@ Artman]

by djdissent (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/18/10649/5334)
Tue Sep 18, 2007 at 07:09:23 AM PDT

Disclaimer: I wasn't there, this account is coming from a friend of mine who was, copied and pasted verbatim from the IM conversation I had with him concerning the event

It was requested in the other thread that this be posted as a diary to counterpoint and countermand the existing diary on the topic and provide an eyewitness account to the events as shown in varying videos around the web.

"I was at the Kerry speech today, sitting 2 rows away from all the action. I'll let you know how it really went down.

The forum was going to be over at 2 pm, and Kerry spoke for so long that the Q and A portion had to be shortened. He only got through about 7 of the 50 people who were waiting to ask questions. While the final question was being read, some douchebag ran down the aisle, grabbed the mic from the other side of the room, interrupted the kid who was talking, and started yelling at Kerry, demanding that his questions be heard. He started ranting about how Kerry talks in circles or something, and everyone was getting annoyed. The cops are all over him in no time and try to escort him out, but he starts yelling and resisting. Kerry insists that they let him stay and even agrees to answer his question.

After the interrupted guy's question was answered, Kerry keeps his promise and lets the angry guy talk. This is the point where people started taking their cameras and phones out. All the videos floating around youtube start around here. You can see in the videos that his questioning gets kind of inappropriate, so somebody cut his mic. Instead of shutting up, he starts yelling and making an even bigger scene. He struggled all the way up the aisle, and started violently trying to free himself. They threatened to taze him and he wouldnt stop fighting, so he got tazed. They only had to arrest him because he was causing a disruption and wouldn't leave peacefully. He wasn't being silenced for asking tough questions, trust me.

It's a shame that they had to taze the guy, but he had a chance to calm down and didn't take it. He probably didn't pose a physical threat to anybody in the room, but someone can't just hijack the floor of a forum like that and expect not to get kicked out. This wasn't some poor guy who was brutalized for trying to ask some tough questions. He's just an obnoxious guy who had a fit when there wasn't time for his questions and refused to be calm even when he was given the chance to speak. He was looking for trouble, and everyone applauded when he was forced to leave.

Nothing pisses me off more than hearing stories about power tripping cops abusing their power, unnecessarily tazing or arresting people, etc. It's a huge problem and I'm glad it's being discussed. Just don't mistake this for one of those cases"

Tazing him still was wrong. I've noticed from all the taped clips that the officers were looking towards someone as if to get a decision or command to taze him. Like to know who that was...

[Jubelum]

Looks like it is time for Democrats, who riled up guys like this, to put up or shut up re: the war. The left has spent a lot of effort fomenting this type of rage, so why aren't the left wing Senators following through?

Answer: We're never leaving Iraq. Our great grandchildren will have the option to deploy there.

It's that same bullshit the left serves us on poverty- vote for us, we'll fix it... but guess what, it never gets fixed. Neither does the war, and this guy wanted to see results- too bad this particular dupe really thought the Dems were going to follow through. So sad.

This guy, and a huge chunk of the left, are totally disillusioned with the lack of progress in surrender and withdrawal. It's interesting to watch someone as they come to the epiphany that they have been had, completely, at at a polling place to boot. Kinda like many Bush voters feel concerning spending and immigration.

They are all in the business of screwing us, folks.

The guy should have never asked about Skull and Bones... especially in a public forum like that.
Ahhh, the stupidity of youth. Doesn't he know who he is messing with?

[@_@ Artman]

Looks like it is time for Democrats, who riled up guys like this, to put up or shut up re: the war. The left has spent a lot of effort fomenting this type of rage, so why aren't the left wing Senators following through?

Answer: We're never leaving Iraq. Our great grandchildren will have the option to deploy there.

It's that same bullshit the left serves us on poverty- vote for us, we'll fix it... but guess what, it never gets fixed. Neither does the war, and this guy wanted to see results- too bad this particular dupe really thought the Dems were going to follow through. So sad.

This guy, and a huge chunk of the left, are totally disillusioned with the lack of progress in surrender and withdrawal. It's interesting to watch someone as they come to the epiphany that they have been had, completely, at at a polling place to boot. Kinda like many Bush voters feel concerning spending and immigration.

They are all in the business of screwing us, folks.

You talk about the left and I posted a link (http://www.indianpad.com/story/106889) to right-wing, pro-war, nut-jobs beating and kicking a father of a dead soldier. Brilliant. You can do better than that Jub. :rolleyes:

[Jubelum]

You talk about the left and I posted a link (http://www.indianpad.com/story/106889) to right-wing, pro-war, nut-jobs beating and kicking a father of a dead soldier. Brilliant. You can do better than that Jub. :rolleyes:

Non Sequitur...

These two things have nothing to do with each other. What exactly does the left not following through on their promises (a systemic problem highlighted in my post) have to do with an assault (an individual transgression for which there is a prescribed criminal remedy) ?

You can do a better redirect than that... ;)

[@_@ Artman]

Non Sequitur...

These two things have nothing to do with each other. What exactly does the left not following through on their promises (a systemic problem highlighted in my post) have to do with an assault (an individual transgression for which there is a prescribed criminal remedy) ?

You can do a better redirect than that... ;)

Ah well, ya got me there, might as well end it all...

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/images/deerhunterr45.jpg

:smokey:

[Jubelum]

:smokey:

Or, keep smokin and get it done in slow motion... ;)

[sammi jo]

From the video, the police tased the man when he was down and restrained; this is no better than common assault. Next question for John Kerry: "Senator, if I ask you the wrong question, will the cops jump on me?". I suspect, had the question been anything other than the two big taboo subjects that we are not permitted to publicly address to our politicians (election fraud being one), the police would never have reacted so instantly, if at all.

Re. the question the man was attempting to address (foolishly, in hindsight):
Kerry promised that there would not be a repeat of the 2000 election (appointment) debacle, and promised "we will have 1000s of attorneys ready to stop any fraud in 2004". After the man was dragged out of the building, Kerry claimed "there wasn't enough evidence" to investigate fraud in 2004. Not only is that is an outright lie, but Kerry also proves that he has no balls, just like the other "bigshots" (read arch-weasels) in the so-called "Democratic" party. Read Prof. Robert Fitrakis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Fitrakis)' book on the 2004 election, that is, if you can wade through 800 pages of hard statistical and other evidence of 2004 election fraud (which was condensed down from the original almost 10,000 pages). The Democrats are scared of upsetting an applecart full of rotten fruit, and Kerry is just another pussy for the corrupt status quo.

[southside grabowski]

I would say, more fairly, that equal rights and treatment under the law is what they're concerned with and what they focus on with their activism.

I would say "self promotion" is what they focus on.

[SpamSandwich]

Mr. Scott... tasers set to STUN! :D

[segovius]

Mr. Scott... tasers set to STUN! :D

It's life Jim, but not as we know it..... :no:

[MarcUK]

This isn't a race issue because it doesn't involve any disparate treatment based on race.

I would say, more fairly, that equal rights and treatment under the law is what they're concerned with and what they focus on with their activism.

now I guess this is going to come across as racism, and I guess you can think whatever you want of it, but im reasonably sure that if this taser victim was black, there would be a million black-rights activists foaming at the mouth by now.

Im not reasonably sure this is a good thing, or a bad thing, one one hand I would support their outrage if this was a black person, on the other we - should all be outraged that this happened at all, and blacks should be equally as outraged at this happening to a white person, as I would be as if it happened to a black person. Becuase the crux of the issue is, (all minor details aside) is that it should not have happened at all.

Now the interesting thing is, where is the black outrage that this happened to a white person, equal to their outrage of it happening to a black person???

Lets be honest, there are as many blacks who will enjoy this tasering as much as there would be whites enjoying it happening to a black person.

Im all for equal race relations, but I see the point Fellowship was making quite clearly.

Simply, evolution has adapted us to be wary of differing groups and this was necessary for our own survival, lets not pretend to be naive enough to think that we dont make alliances within like groups and want our little group to come out on top. That is all that is happening here in reality in regard to activist groups and the outrage that follows.

[Splinemodel]

T-Shirt presses are running everywhere. . .

"Don't tase me, bro"

I have to say, though, that if the kid were just a tad less mouthy, even though he's white and the speaker is an opponent of Bush, I think this would have blown-up a lot more than it did. The skrieks of pain kind of put it over the top.

[Jubelum]

equal treatment under the law.

unless, of course, that comes to income tax rates, right? :p

[sammi jo]

Haven't John Kerry and co. ever heard of MODERATORS?

Since when is it a crime to ask a question? For sure, the guy was passionate and persistent, but that's the nature of politics, in civilized nations, that is. To get the police in on the act within seconds reeks of Saddam Hussein, or whatever. But that's kinda where we're all heading anyway.

[southside grabowski]

Then, uh, progressive treatment.

:p

You mean Socialist?

[Jubelum]

You mean Socialist?

He means "punish success" 8-)

[MarcUK]

"Black-rights?"

No, but it would be a civil rights issue because of the wide disparity in how blacks are generally treated by police departments. Whether they're foaming at the mouth or not is your lamentable characterization.



Well, how do you know? Ask a black person.

*Looks around the room.*



We're being a little presumptuous about what black community thinks of this, aren't we?

But then again white people in the last 50 years or so haven't exactly had quite as bad treatment by police departments, especially racially-motived treatment, have they? And racially-based treatment isn't an issue like it frequently is when black people get arrested.



OK!



Fellowship's point was trivial and dumb for the reasons I've talked about.

(I'm sure Fellowship will ignore everything but this in order to make a stand against incivility everywhere.)



Well, whatever.

I'm white and 100% for equal rights and equal treatment under the law.

Yes i know black people have had a much harsher time over the centuries and it was completely wrong, but you do not justify the situation happening now by reversing the situation and claiming it is ok now becuase whites have been treated more fairly.

If its wrong, it is wrong. Its not any more justifiable because people have been treated unfairly in the past.

All that achieves - and this is why evolution is relavent - because no matter what, we have evolved to group into like races and be wary of difference. This causes mistrust and conflict as we see. You cannot control what happens subconsciously however hard you try. There is nothing you can do about racism at the most fundamental level, because it is naturally built in to each and every one of us. Period.

What you must do - the people who realise that they are controlled by their subconscious, is be aware of it and try to control their conscious actions. Those in power and who have the ability to lead MUST level and equalise the playing field - for everyone.

It is just as stupid and dangerous to let it swing the other way, because a pendulum cycles back and forth. The pendulum should be stopped by those who have the control over it.

[@_@ Artman]

ANOTHER WHITE GUY GETTING BEAT UP BY A FAT WHITE COP. (http://freedomactivists.net/police-brutality/police-officer-beats-up-town-council-man/)

I give up. White, black, red, yellow, brown, old people and even council men aren't safe from these fat, donut eating Nazis.

[southside grabowski]

He means "punish success" 8-)


Yep. Punish success until no one wants to succeed and our motivation drops to the level of Katrina debris.

[Fellowship]

It was not that many years ago that it was "not necessary" to use a Taser on someone asking a question to a skull & bones member.

Take a look at Alex Jones doing the same thing to then Gov. Bush in Austin Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyn_doplUM Notice no Taser needed.

See how things change bit by bit over time. Each day that goes by seems to get us closer to a police state.

Fellows

[mydo]

Do you hear the wooshing sound of lawyers rushing to this guy's house?


This guy didn't do anything different than the lefties that interrupt right wing speakers. The only real difference is that there was only one of him and the cops decided to stop him for some reason. Plenty of play acting like the Artman's pal Yearwood the hip hop preacher.

[mydo]

It was not that many years ago that it was "not necessary" to use a Taser on someone asking a question to a skull & bones member.

Take a look at Alex Jones doing the same thing to then Gov. Bush in Austin Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyn_doplUM Notice no Taser needed.

See how things change bit by bit over time. Each day that goes by seems to get us closer to a police state.

Fellows

You know what's really disgusting? The fact that people cheered both arrests. The students that cheer this kid getting arrested should be held back and year to take classes in the constitution.

[spindler]

I'm glad they tasered him. He did the most undemocratic things. He stole time from other people who deserved to ask questions. There were people that came to hear John Kerry and instead they heard his stuff that was lower quality than most internet rants. And then he wouldn't let the conversation go on because he wasn't satisfied. This is not an acceptable or productive form of dissent. It's just plain selfishness.

[SDW2001]

Human rights have left the building when nobody stands up for them.

Evil then takes a foothold.

Be it people who think Abortion is no big deal or people who think using a Taser on someone is no big deal. We get what we allow. That is why it is important to speak against abuse no matter where it happens and in a steady manner.

Fellowship

by djdissent (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/18/10649/5334)
Tue Sep 18, 2007 at 07:09:23 AM PDT

Disclaimer: I wasn't there, this account is coming from a friend of mine who was, copied and pasted verbatim from the IM conversation I had with him concerning the event

It was requested in the other thread that this be posted as a diary to counterpoint and countermand the existing diary on the topic and provide an eyewitness account to the events as shown in varying videos around the web.



Tazing him still was wrong. I've noticed from all the taped clips that the officers were looking towards someone as if to get a decision or command to taze him. Like to know who that was...

From the video, the police tased the man when he was down and restrained; this is no better than common assault. Next question for John Kerry: "Senator, if I ask you the wrong question, will the cops jump on me?". I suspect, had the question been anything other than the two big taboo subjects that we are not permitted to publicly address to our politicians (election fraud being one), the police would never have reacted so instantly, if at all.

Re. the question the man was attempting to address (foolishly, in hindsight):
Kerry promised that there would not be a repeat of the 2000 election (appointment) debacle, and promised "we will have 1000s of attorneys ready to stop any fraud in 2004". After the man was dragged out of the building, Kerry claimed "there wasn't enough evidence" to investigate fraud in 2004. Not only is that is an outright lie, but Kerry also proves that he has no balls, just like the other "bigshots" (read arch-weasels) in the so-called "Democratic" party. Read Prof. Robert Fitrakis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Fitrakis)' book on the 2004 election, that is, if you can wade through 800 pages of hard statistical and other evidence of 2004 election fraud (which was condensed down from the original almost 10,000 pages). The Democrats are scared of upsetting an applecart full of rotten fruit, and Kerry is just another pussy for the corrupt status quo.

You know what's really disgusting? The fact that people cheered both arrests. The students that cheer this kid getting arrested should be held back and year to take classes in the constitution.

You guys must be watching a different clip, especially you, sammi. The guy was NOT arrested for "asking the wrong question" and you damn well know it.
. I mean, really.

The dude was totally out of control. The clip makes me wonder if it was a deliberate setup by this kid. If not he had to be on something. No one acts like that. All he had to do was leave the building. This guy WANTED to get arrested. The more they tried to calm him, they crazier he got. He was flailing around violently and was potentially a threat to himself and others.

ALL that said, using the Taser was questionable. It might have been a little much. I wouldn't go any further than that.

[AsLan^]

One thing I noticed in both the UCLA tasering and this one is that people just sort of stand on the sidelines yelling at the police but not really doing anything to stop them.

What are our moral obligations and legal rights in this situation?

From a moral perspective, I think the citizens should have come to the aid of their fellow citizen. From a legal perspective, I think you could get in a lot of trouble for doing so.

If you see a policeman about to taser someone who is already subdued (which sounds like torture to me) do you have the right to restrain that officer? Or perhaps the other way, do you have the right to move that person out of harms way.

For example, in the UCLA tasering, the kid couldn't get up so they kept tasering him. In a perfect world the other students would have dragged the student back into the library and prevented the police from getting to him.

In this recent tasering, if someone saw the policeman readying the taser even though the demonstrator was already subdued, could they have legally restrained the officer to prevent him from using the taser?

[Fellowship]

You know what's really disgusting? The fact that people cheered both arrests. The students that cheer this kid getting arrested should be held back and year to take classes in the constitution.

No kidding... And note this is not a left / right thing this is a police abuse thing.

There was no need for the Taser... PERIOD.

Fellows

[AsLan^]

The dude was totally out of control. The clip makes me wonder if it was a deliberate setup by this kid. If not he had to be on something. No one acts like that. All he had to do was leave the building. This guy WANTED to get arrested. The more they tried to calm him, they crazier he got. He was flailing around violently and was potentially a threat to himself and others.


Oh yes, he looked very threatening handcuffed there on the floor.

What has the world come to when grown men are afraid to get a cut lip or a black eye :no:


ALL that said, using the Taser was questionable. It might have been a little much. I wouldn't go any further than that.

Questionable!? A little much!? I'm speechless :no:

[Fellowship]

You guys must be watching a different clip, especially you, sammi. The guy was NOT arrested for "asking the wrong question" and you damn well know it.
. I mean, really.

The dude was totally out of control. The clip makes me wonder if it was a deliberate setup by this kid. If not he had to be on something. No one acts like that. All he had to do was leave the building. This guy WANTED to get arrested. The more they tried to calm him, they crazier he got. He was flailing around violently and was potentially a threat to himself and others.

ALL that said, using the Taser was questionable. It might have been a little much. I wouldn't go any further than that.

Sure he was a little over the top with his style of communicating however there was no reason to Taser him. Not with that many cops all over him and him being unarmed.

It seems to me the cops should tell people who do this sort of "offending" to leave the building or be arrested if they do not. That way the choice is that of the outspoken one and nobody will feel to sorry for them when they are hauled out. But to just arrest people like this in such an automatic response is a bit over the top as well if you ask me.

Ask the "offender" to leave the building or face arrest... then if there is a lack of cooperation arrest the person.

Again in this case there was no need to Taser this "offender".

Fellows

[AsLan^]

He was flailing around violently and was potentially a threat to himself and others.

Also, I'd like to revisit this weasely little nugget.

Anything can potentially be a threat. And the threat he potentially could have posed was ridiculously minimal.

What, maybe he could have slapped someone, or accidentaly knocked someone over as he was jumping around. Oh noes!

This is the pussification of America and I feel ashamed.

[mydo]

You guys must be watching a different clip, especially you, sammi. The guy was NOT arrested for "asking the wrong question" and you damn well know it.
. I mean, really.



Yea but NO! The guy was talking and wouldn't shut up, being a complete ass hat. Then the police stepped in. Are the cops the moderators? Are the cops the ushers?:???:

[mydo]

One thing I noticed in both the UCLA tasering and this one is that people just sort of stand on the sidelines yelling at the police but not really doing anything to stop them.

What are our moral obligations and legal rights in this situation?

From a moral perspective, I think the citizens should have come to the aid of their fellow citizen. From a legal perspective, I think you could get in a lot of trouble for doing so.

If you see a policeman about to taser someone who is already subdued (which sounds like torture to me) do you have the right to restrain that officer? Or perhaps the other way, do you have the right to move that person out of harms way.

For example, in the UCLA tasering, the kid couldn't get up so they kept tasering him. In a perfect world the other students would have dragged the student back into the library and prevented the police from getting to him.

In this recent tasering, if someone saw the policeman readying the taser even though the demonstrator was already subdued, could they have legally restrained the officer to prevent him from using the taser?

Very interesting question. In such a dangerous situation (the cops have guns) where no ones phyical wellbeing is at risk, then your moral obligation is to be a witness. The cell phone camera is a great invention.

[SDW2001]

Oh yes, he looked very threatening handcuffed there on the floor.

What has the world come to when grown men are afraid to get a cut lip or a black eye :no:



Questionable!? A little much!? I'm speechless :no:

You have to be kidding me. Really, you do. The guy started flailing around and screaming. He would NOT calm down. He was warned about the Taser. I agree it was probably not necessary, but I think he wanted this whole scene to happen regardless. Listen to him again...no one acts like that.

I have a unique perspective on this. I sat on a school board where things got heated and we had security there for large meetings. Anyone that acted like that would be asked to leave and escorted out.
No one would get away with what this kid did.

Also, I'd like to revisit this weasely little nugget.

Anything can potentially be a threat. And the threat he potentially could have posed was ridiculously minimal.

What, maybe he could have slapped someone, or accidentaly knocked someone over as he was jumping around. Oh noes!

This is the pussification of America and I feel ashamed.

So that is acceptable? Someone gets bitch slapped at a political speech or knocked to the ground by a crazed speaker who grabbed the microphone and went on a rant?

Yea but NO! The guy was talking and wouldn't shut up, being a complete ass hat. Then the police stepped in. Are the cops the moderators? Are the cops the ushers?:???:

They are not moderators, but they do provide the security for the forum. He was speaking out of turn and ranting, flailing his arms. He resisted and disrupted the peace at the very least.

[mydo]

....



They are not moderators, but they do provide the security for the forum. He was speaking out of turn and ranting, flailing his arms. He resisted and disrupted the peace at the very least.

Bah! The very first time they stepped in was to get him to STFU. Then the fake drama started and the guy torqued it up way too high. The cops are not in a position to tell someone standing at a mic to to shut up.


Lawsuit coming.

[AsLan^]

You have to be kidding me. Really, you do. The guy started flailing around and screaming. He would NOT calm down. He was warned about the Taser. I agree it was probably not necessary, but I think he wanted this whole scene to happen regardless. Listen to him again...no one acts like that.

I have a unique perspective on this. I sat on a school board where things got heated and we had security there for large meetings. Anyone that acted like that would be asked to leave and escorted out.
No one would get away with what this kid did.


I'm not saying he should have gotten away with it. He most certainly should have been escorted from the building.

He didn't need to calm down, he was already restrained. And warned about the taser? He was on the ground handcuffed. He didn't pose a threat to anyone.


So that is acceptable? Someone gets bitch slapped at a political speech or knocked to the ground by a crazed speaker who grabbed the microphone and went on a rant?


The point you're missing is that he never moved from potentially being a threat, to actually being a threat. The word theat implies a future act, the undesirable thing that could happen hasn't taken place yet. If taken one step further, he actually becomes a danger.

He at no time indicated that he intended to "bitch slap" anyone and if anyone was knocked over it would have been what we call an "accident".

My point is that the taser is not acceptable for use against people who simply are not complying with a policemans orders.

[Fellowship]

You have to be kidding me. Really, you do. The guy started flailing around and screaming.


They are not moderators, but they do provide the security for the forum. He was speaking out of turn and ranting, flailing his arms. He resisted and disrupted the peace at the very least.

You are mistaken badly

Read the following and tell me what part you do not understand.

http://www.newstarget.com/022041.html

"Meyer is at the microphone, asking Sen. John Kerry a question. Police are standing behind him. "Are you a member of Skull and Bones... are you in the same secret society?"

Two uniformed police officers step forward and grab his arms.

"Excuse me, what are you arresting me for?"

Officers are holding his arms and begin to march him away from the microphone.

"Woah, woah! Is anybody watching this?"

""What did I do? HELP! HELP!"

The six officers pin his arms and legs to the ground and pull out handcuffs.

"HELP ME! HELP! They're arresting me!"

The female officer, with her finger pointed at him, screams at him, "Stop resisting!"

He relaxes a bit and says, "If you let me go, I'll walk out of here."

The female officer says, "Quiet down! Do it now!"

Then the officers forcefully turn him over and thrust his torso to the ground so that he's laying flat on his stomach, with his face on the floor.

"Why are they arresting me? Can someone do something here?"

"What did I do? Get off me, man! I didn't do anything!"

He tries to sit up, using his arm to grasp the edge of a seat and pull himself up. An officer pulls out a taser.

"Don't tase me bro! Don't tase me!"

The officer tasers the student, and the taser clicking is clearly heard on the video.

"OWWW! OWWW! OWWW!"

Another girl is heard screaming in the background (unknown at this time who it is).

"OWWW! OH MY GOD! WHAT DID I DO?"

Someone screams in the background, "Police brutality!"

Someone in the foreground (bearded man) says, "Stay back!"

SHAMEFUL

Fellows

[Fellowship]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyn_doplUM

No Taser needed... This was 10 years ago.

What will America be like 10 years from now?

Fellows

[Jubelum]

This moron should have listened to the ACLU...

DO NOT RESIST ARREST or assault an officer. It makes the civil rights violation part of it much better when you want that 5 million from the jury. This guy's going to be independently wealthy courtesy of YouTube.

The average peace officer quit caring about civil liberties, near as I can figure, about 15 years ago. Now it's just how you can trick the people into surrendering their rights (primarily the 4th and 5th Amendments) and how to use ever-more cruel "non lethal" means to control the population. It's really, really sick. At the same time, people are streaming across our borders, with zero regard for our laws, and both state and federal law enforcement are doing little to stop it. It's not about enforcing law- we're not doing that- we're waging psychological warfare against dissent of all kinds. From left and right.

This is not the Social Contract I signed up for, TYVM. :no:

[southside grabowski]

He deserved arrest.It's not about the question he asked. It is about him not taking his turn and sitting down so someone else could speak. He was not the invited speaker:\

That said, they had no reason to taser him. He was well outnumbered by officiers and he was neither armed nor an imposing figure.

I would also like to respond to those who see this as a sign that be are becoming a police state. What do you think that they would have done to this guy 20 years ago? A club to the back of the head perhaps?

[@_@ Artman]

I would also like to respond to those who see this as a sign that be are becoming a police state. What do you think that they would have done to this guy 20 years ago? A club to the back of the head perhaps?

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_77/chicago.gif

http://img.search.com/2/2d/Ac.chicagoriot.jpg

http://thephoenix.com/uploadedImages/The_Phoenix/News/News_Stories/cops(2).jpg

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/wp-content/KentState.jpg

http://www.vietnamwar.com/kentstateinjured.jpg

Ah yes, the good old days...:rolleyes:

[southside grabowski]

My point being that this is nothing new. Some seem to think that we have gone from a free utopia to a fascist sate over the past 6 years. Perhaps this generation is just starting to see.

[Fellowship]

My point being that this is nothing new. Some seem to think that we have gone from a free utopia to a fascist sate over the past 6 years. Perhaps this generation is just starting to see.

I see your point but my point would be that over time a society should progress. This is why over time we have moved to allow women to vote and wear jeans if they wish. This is why we no longer allow slavery. etc.

It only seems natural that police procedures should progress as well with time.

Of course the world is not perfect.

Supply and demand... Not enough people are demanding a better world than we have it seems. In fact some make excuses for all that is not right with the world and try to justify the failings...

Talk about moving in the wrong direction. None of us should make excuses for what is wrong with the world rather stand for progress and doing what is right as a civil society would demand.

Fellows

[southside grabowski]

An argument can be made that a tasing is progress compared to the Chicago images that Artman posted. Again, I don't think this guy should have been tased. He should have been cuffed and arrested for his actions, but not tased.

All governments must suppress freedoms to some extent to prevent anarchy. Again, this guy was not restrained for asking the wrong question. He was restrained for refusing to surrender the podium so that someone else could speak. The officers actually were protecting the freedom of another to speak.

[@_@ Artman]

Gang of Off Duty Cops Assault Cameraman (http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/190907_police_assault.html)

A gang of off-duty New York police assaulted a cameraman, shouted verbal epithets and damaged a camera on a side street near Times Square just days before the sixth anniversary of 9/11.

The cameraman, Aaron Dykes, was filming a 9/11 Truth group that was passing through the street en route to Fox Studios only a few blocks away. Off duty police officers and other members of their group began shouting "a**holes" at the 9/11 truth group when one of the officers told the cameraman to "stop filming" and warned "I wouldn't walk this way," referring to the sidewalk he was blocking off.

When Dykes refused to stop filming, another officer stepped up to batter the camera while stating "How you doing tonight." (see still frames below)

This prompted yet another officer to shove on the cameraman, saying "Get your f'n camera out of here."

This was witnessed by on-duty officer Donnellan who told the temperamental cops to ignore the cameraman. However, this did not stop the rest of the crowd from unleashing on the cameraman.

Honestly, Truthers and NYPD will not mix too well. Understandable. But again, do these off duty officers have the right to harass (& instigate/escalate a situation) people whomever they are or whatever reason (freedom of speech)? No.

Deputies hit autistic teen with stun gun (http://www.ocregister.com/news/deputies-karras-boy-1847777-monday-brotheim)

Tuesday, Karras was back home after being released to his parents with no charges filed and suffering no serious injuries.

But Karras’ parents believe deputies overreacted when they responded to reports of a suspicious person near a bus stop – that they had no reason to fear the neatly dressed, unarmed teen who, at 5 feet, 11 inches and bearded, appears older.

Karras’ parents say they are mystified that deputies did not seem aware that he was the focus of a missing-person’s report that day.

“I was afraid of something,’’ Karras said Tuesday when asked why he ran from a deputy.

A sheriff’s spokesman said deputies possibly saved Karras’ life by using nonlethal force to stop him from running into traffic. They said a deputy fired the Taser when Taylor ignored their orders and started running.

A deputy sent a jolt of electricity into Taylor’s back a second time when the boy didn’t respond to orders to show his hands, They feared he might have been concealing a weapon.

The incident underscores both the unpredictable nature of police work and the challenges people with mental disabilities like Karras face when caught in situations they cannot comprehend.

Sheriff’s officials said, the moppy-haired teen with wire-frame glasses and a near-constant grin is lucky to be alive.

Again, arguable. But if sherriffs can't restrain an autistic teenager without using a taser, they need professional help. Oh wait, they are supposed to be. You can't just say "he might have been concealing a weapon" to justify your actions. Lame.

This is from an email I got from a friend of mine who lives outside the US:

I simply do not understand, what Police is doing at universities (Kerry probably has a bodyguard, fair enof) in libraries (another student tasered incident) or in hospitals (the father and newborn child tasered incident).

I don't understand why Police officers have more rights as customers at McDonald's (The underage McD employee tasered in the drivethrough station incident)

I don't understand how off duty cops are always right and allowed boss people around (9/11 was an inside job, cameraman attacked incident)

And that's just stories about Police officers abusing their authority .. add stories about abuse from Rent-A-Cop security personnel at airports and the number of stories explode..

"Land of the Free..." does not refer to the United States of America any more and I find that sad..

[southside grabowski]

Some of theses folks aren’t the brightest bulbs on the tree Artman. I have learned that the last thing you want to do is try to have a rational conversation with a cop. If they weren’t cops, many would be driving school busses. I find the tougher the district they work, the more reasonable they are. Ghetto cops usually have a clue. Suburban cops seldom do..

[@_@ Artman]

Some of theses folks aren’t the brightest bulbs on the tree Artman. I have learned that the last thing you want to do is try to have a rational conversation with a cop. If they weren’t cops, many would be driving school busses. I find the tougher the district they work, the more reasonable they are. Ghetto cops usually have a clue. Suburban cops seldom do..

Not the "brightest bulb" does not define autism. I've had rational discussions with police, sure. But they are usually very defensive and always seem to win an argument. "Ghetto cops" are the worst of the bunch, visit Northeast Philly sometime.

Meanwhile, back in the suburbs...


Bloodied 70-year-old woman cuffed for having a brown lawn (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/19/lawn.dispute.ap/index.html)

A 70-year-old woman arrested in a dispute over her brown lawn pleaded not guilty Tuesday, then stood by as a Los Angeles lawyer waved handcuffs for the cameras outside court.

Betty Perry is charged with resisting arrest and failing to maintain her landscaping, both misdemeanors.

She was arrested July 6 after failing to give her name to a police officer who visited her home.

During a struggle, Perry fell and injured her nose. She spent more than an hour in a holding cell before police released her.

"I ask the citizens of Orem: How many of you would like to have your great-grandmother taken from her home with bruises and blood and placed in handcuffs for failing to water her lawn?" attorney Gloria Allred said.

"Let's bring sanity back to law enforcement," she said.

Yes, lets. Before it's too late. :no:

Oh wait here's another...

Wheelchair-Bound Woman Dies After Being Shocked With Taser 10 Times (http://news.yahoo.com/s/wkmg/20070919/lo_wkmg/14147512)

Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

Within an hour of her call to 911, Delafield, a wheelchair-bound woman documented to have mental illness, was dead.

Family attorney Rick Alexander said Delafield's death could have been prevented and that there are four things that jump out at him about the case.

"One, she's in a wheelchair. Two, she's schizophrenic. Three, they're using a Taser on a person that's in a wheelchair, and then four is that they tasered her 10 times for a period of like two minutes," Alexander said.

According to a police report, one of the officers used her Taser gun nine times for a total of 160 seconds and the other officer discharged his Taser gun once for a total of no more than five seconds.

A medical examiner found Delafield died from hypertensive heart disease and cited the Taser gun shock as a contributing factor, the report said. On her death certificate, the medical examiner ruled Delafield's death a homicide.

So how many deaths from tasers do we need to see before something is done? Perhaps another couple hundred...

The obviously the inadequate training cops receive is the main problem I imagine, why did they need to taser her?

[Dave K.]

Really interesting debate...

I am curious if all of these cases involving the police have been there all along or are they on the rise? Now that many people carry around video cameras with them and with the popularity of the video sites, are we just becoming expose more and more to these things. But is there really an increase in these cases or are we becoming more aware of what has been there all along?

Dave

[Outsider]

So how many deaths from tasers do we need to see before something is done? Perhaps another couple hundred...

3000.

3000 is the magic number.

[@_@ Artman]

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL USA PRESS RELEASE Tuesday, March 28, 2006 (http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGUSA20060328001)
USA: TASER-Related Deaths Increasingly Frequent; Total Exceeds 150, Reports Amnesty International TASER Use Amounts to Torture in Some Cases

Sixty-one people died in 2005 after being shocked by law enforcement agency TASERs, a 27 percent increase from 2004's tally of 48 deaths, finds an Amnesty International study released today. Including 10 TASER-related deaths through mid-February of this year, at least 152 people have died in the United States since June 2001 after being shocked with the weapons.

"Despite a lack of independent research on TASER safety, police officers are using these weapons as a routine force tool -- rather than as a weapon of last resort," said Dr. William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA (AIUSA). "These weapons have a record that's growing longer each week -- and it's not a good one. The increasingly frequent TASER-related deaths underscore the need for an independent, rigorous and impartial inquiry into their use."

[Jubelum]

I agree <gulp> with Amnesty... the police use these things with little consideration of the level of provocation. I believe, in many cases, I think that the Taser has replaced normal means of physical control. Why have to actually subdue a subject when you can just tase him, or use is as a punishment worse than just being cuffed. The taser is just another means for the cop to inflict pain if you make him mad. Don't make cops mad, children. Submit to whatever they want and do it quietly. Don't let them know that you'll drop a civil rights lawsuit on them for excessive force. Just smile and enjoy the boots.

The bar for what constitutes "resistance" has be lowered because there is this neat new gizmo that looks like a gun and makes people beg you not to use on them. All of the psychological rush of "POWER" without all that blood and investigation and lawsuit stuff. Great for those 15% of cops that whack off to RoboCop and SWAT Magazine.

These things are WAY overused. They are good for their intended purpose, but should not become a substitute for other means, which I believe they are quickly becoming. I believe that every discharge of a Taser should be investigated just as a shooting would be. Desk duty with pay for the officer. A citizen/internal police review of the action. Otherwise, this whole Taser thing is going to get way, way out of control.

[SDW2001]

Bah! The very first time they stepped in was to get him to STFU. Then the fake drama started and the guy torqued it up way too high. The cops are not in a position to tell someone standing at a mic to to shut up.


Lawsuit coming.

Yes, they are. He did not have the floor and cannot be allowed to scream on indefinitely. They are supposed to prevent that. Cops can use reasonable force to remove someone in the case one refuses to shut up. I'm tellin' ya...that's the way it is. The guy then resisted, and it went from there.

I'm not saying he should have gotten away with it. He most certainly should have been escorted from the building.

They tried to do that. He resisted, flailed, screamed, etc.



He didn't need to calm down, he was already restrained. And warned about the taser? He was on the ground handcuffed. He didn't pose a threat to anyone.

He was still flipping out and told to calm down. He was NOT calm. Handcuffed or not, he was still not fully under control.



The point you're missing is that he never moved from potentially being a threat, to actually being a threat. The word theat implies a future act, the undesirable thing that could happen hasn't taken place yet. If taken one step further, he actually becomes a danger.

WTF does that mean? He was either a possible/potential threat or not. See below.



He at no time indicated that he intended to "bitch slap" anyone and if anyone was knocked over it would have been what we call an "accident".

:lol: Yeah, 'cause to show that the cops thought he might be a threat, he needed to say 'I'm a threat" or "I'm gonna bitch slap you." Jesus christ. His ACTIONS showed he may have been a threat.



My point is that the taser is not acceptable for use against people who simply are not complying with a policemans orders.

Well, I might agree with that actually. I think it was over the top...I just am not going to crucify the police in this case for their actions.

You are mistaken badly

Read the following and tell me what part you do not understand.

http://www.newstarget.com/022041.html

[/b]

[/b]

SHAMEFUL

Fellows

Stop...you're just repeating yourself. Reposting the same argument over and over is not going to accomplish anything. You say "shameful" and I say "no" and you say "shameful" and say "no." You've not made any substantive argument. At least Aslan in trying to do so.



[QUOTE=Fellowship;1144869]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoyn_doplUM

No Taser needed... This was 10 years ago.

What will America be like 10 years from now?

Fellows

Dude...how can you even compare those two situations? They are totally different. I'm not saying I agree the guy should have been arrested, either. But he was calm and did not resist. He did not scream. He did not flail. Give me a fucking break, fellows.

3000.

3000 is the magic number.

I say it's 3,500. Do I hear 4,000? Going once?

[mydo]

Yes, they are. He did not have the floor and cannot be allowed to scream on indefinitely. They are supposed to prevent that. Cops can use reasonable force to remove someone in the case one refuses to shut up. I'm tellin' ya...that's the way it is. The guy then resisted, and it went from there.




No they are not. Not having the floor is not a crime. The cops were out of line when they went to stop him from speaking.

[SDW2001]

No they are not. Not having the floor is not a crime. The cops were out of line when they went to stop him from speaking.

Then you frankly have no clue how meetings and public events operate. I speak from personal experience. Police are often asked to stop people from disrupting others' right to speak and participate. And that's what he was doing. He was disrupting the event. Then he resisted arrest.

Your right to swing your arms stops at my nose. Learn that.

[Tinkerer]

I think the issue here is that the guy acted as if he was getting arrested right from the get-go, when I'd be willing to bet he was just getting escorted from the building.

At that point everyone started to overreact. He flailed about, thinking he was under immediate arrest (highly unlikely), the cops overreacted and tased him (highly unnecessary)

There's plenty of blame, and stupidity, to go around here. The cops just needed to say "you aren't under arrest, but you're on your way out of here" and that would have pretty much given them the high road.

[mydo]

Then you frankly have no clue how meetings and public events operate. I speak from personal experience. Police are often asked to stop people from disrupting others' right to speak and participate. And that's what he was doing. He was disrupting the event. Then he resisted arrest.

What campus did you come from?

Your right to swing your arms stops at my nose. Learn that.

He didn't swing at anyone jackass.

[Jubelum]

What campus did you come from?


If you must know, SDW and I were roomies at Bob Jones University. :D

[AsLan^]

Stop resisting Dave! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vAZATt4tM74)

Apparently resisting arrest is one of those catch all, get out of jail free cards, for the police.

And they know it.

[@_@ Artman]

Stop resisting Dave! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vAZATt4tM74)

Apparently resisting arrest is one of those catch all, get out of jail free cards, for the police.

And they know it.

"Let the police handle it, y'all!"

We need scary clowns, that'll put the fear in them cops, yeah...

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/clown-demonstrator.jpg

On the spot: with the G8's Clown Army (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1894191.ece)

Times reporter describes the scene as thousands of protesters - including the 'Clown Army' - try to disrupt the G8 summit

"I've just spent the morning with a division of the Clown Army, whose job is to divert officers' attention at the police checkpoints so the main body of protesters can break through the blockades. There are about 500 of them, spraying water and giving the police backchat. They're enjoying some success.

[segovius]

Cops Taser 15-year old autistic boy (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser19sep19%2C0%2C2376553.story?coll=la-home-center)

Orange County sheriff's deputies on Tuesday defended their decision to use a stun gun on a 15-year-old autistic boy who ran away from his parents and later dashed into traffic.

Using the Taser in this case "was the right thing to do," said Jim Amormino, a sheriff's spokesman. "If that were your son, would you want him Tased or hit by a car? The deputy made the right decision. . . . It could have saved [the boy's] life."

But Doris Karras, mother of Taylor Karras, said deputies did not need to use the Taser gun, particularly since she had called various police agencies to alert them that her son was missing.

[SDW2001]

What campus did you come from?



He didn't swing at anyone jackass.


I was a frequent participant in meetings and later a member of a school board. We had police for contentious meetings. When someone's time expired and he wouldn't leave the mic, the police moved towards him. The person didn't have the right to disrupt other's right to speak. If he resisted, he would be escorted out.

Secondly, I wasn't being literal with my statement about swinging arms. Please tell me you understand what a metaphor is. Holy Jesus H. Christ. Oh, and thanks for the ad hom. Nice.

[SDW2001]

I think the issue here is that the guy acted as if he was getting arrested right from the get-go, when I'd be willing to bet he was just getting escorted from the building.

At that point everyone started to overreact. He flailed about, thinking he was under immediate arrest (highly unlikely), the cops overreacted and tased him (highly unnecessary)

There's plenty of blame, and stupidity, to go around here. The cops just needed to say "you aren't under arrest, but you're on your way out of here" and that would have pretty much given them the high road.

I basically agree with that. As I've said, I don't think the Taser was needed. I just don't think it's egregious and shameful and pathetic and fellowship thinks it is.

[Berlepsch]

I was a frequent participant in meetings and later a member of a school board. We had police for contentious meetings. When someone's time expired and he wouldn't leave the mic, the police moved towards him. The person didn't have the right to disrupt other's right to speak. If he resisted, he would be escorted out.

The American system never ceases to astonish me. Can someone please tell me what the legal basis for a police intervention in such a case could be?

[SDW2001]

The American system never ceases to astonish me. Can someone please tell me what the legal basis for a police intervention in such a case could be?

I would say you'd be talking "disorderly conduct" if arrested...which is quite rare despite the content posted in this thread.

The police at the school board meetings in question where only there when it was going to be contentious and well-attended public meeting. We had 800-1000 people showing up over a proposed 23.6% property tax increase in the already highest taxed school district in the county. I ended up speaking to one officer prior to the meeting. I asked him questions about this very issue, actually. He basically said they were there to make sure nothing physical happened. People yelled and screamed and what not. The police were just there as an insurance measure. But there was also the public comment section of the meeting, where the board allowed people to take the mic and speak publicly. There was a 3 minute time limit....which I think is now a lot more flexible (the board President was an ASSHOLE...former judge who thought he was in the courtroom, and he enforced it ruthlessly. Anyway....if someone just would not leave the mic after their time, the police would move towards them. One guy got escorted out after they ALMOST pulled him away. They followed him down the aisle to make sure he wasn't going to do anything nuts. But yes...if a person refuses to shut the fuck up, they should intervene.

[@_@ Artman]

I'd say we handle these disputes the old fashioned way...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/pistols_at_dawn.jpg

:smokey: