Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at Colombia

[southside grabowski]

As you all know, the President of Iran will speak at Colombia today. As expected, there are masses of freedom loving folks disturbed by his presence. To me, this is not as much about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's right to speak as it is about the American people's right to hear him. No doubt in my mind that the man should speak.

This should keep the talk radio types busy for a few days.:lol:


http://worldleaders.columbia.edu/events.html

[@_@ Artman]

Registration for this program is closed.

Due to security restrictions, only those on the registration list will be able to gain admission to this event. There will be no waitlist for registration or standby line, and no walk-in guests will be permitted on the day of the event.

:rolleyes:

[segovius]

To me, this is not as much about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's right to speak as it is about the American people's right to hear him.

Looks like no-one's rights are counting for much....

Columbia withdraws invitation to Ahmadinejad (http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3706)

[@_@ Artman]

Looks like no-one's rights are counting for much....

Columbia withdraws invitation to Ahmadinejad (http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3706)

Columbia Withdraws an Invitation to Ahmadinejad (http://www.nysun.com/article/40142?page_no=1)

By ELIANA JOHNSON
Staff Reporter of the Sun

September 22, 2006?

Confused...

[segovius]

Columbia Withdraws an Invitation to Ahmadinejad (http://www.nysun.com/article/40142?page_no=1)

By ELIANA JOHNSON
Staff Reporter of the Sun

September 22, 2006?

Confused...

Yes, me too...reading further there is some debate as to whether this one also has been withdrawn or whether people are referencing the old one...

Wait and see I guess....

[sammi jo]

Wow.

OK, AhmadiNejad has allegedly said some aggressive things about Israel, as reported and translated to the western media by MEMRI (which is notoriously biased towards the Jewish state), so doubt is thus cast on the accuracy of his speech's translation anyway, especially when on other occasions he has referred to Jews as "his brothers and sisters", and to the Jewish religion as "a noble faith". (Of course, this doesn't get any publicity because it's "off message"). But it is understandable that some folk are antsy about him from the constant barrage of unsubstantiated claims about Iran developing nuclear weapons... a parallel to how the Bush Administration LIED re. Iraq.

So... what exactly has Ahmadinejad DONE that enrages this administration and our yellow media? Has he attacked anyone? Iran hasn't attacked anyone in recent history, and spent 8 years defending itself a a war with Iraq when Saddam Hussein, allied wth the US, attacked Iran. If the likes of Henry Kissinger and Ollie North, both of whom have been described as a "war criminal" and a "terrorist" (with lots of solid evidence to support those claims) go round the lecture circuit at >$50,000 a pop (instead of languishing behind bars for life if there was any real justice in this country), then what's the big problem with Ahmadinejad speaking here? His speaking and being questioned by an audience light put him on the spot, if there were any truth to the accusations.. ...

Iran is NOT America's enemy, and never has been. This whole thing is another pile of steaming propaganda, bullshit and paranoia spewed up from the bowels of the NeoConservative Islamophobic hate machine, all designed to steer the gullible public into believing that theres another boogeyman out there to get us.

[Jubelum]

Wow.

OK, AhmadiNejad has allegedly said some aggressive things about Israel

OMG... where have you been?

[segovius]

OMG... where have you been?

Quotes please....(and not the debunked 'wipe off map' nonsense)...

[@_@ Artman]

then what's the big problem with Ahmadinejad speaking here? His speaking and being questioned by an audience light put him on the spot, if there were any truth to the accusations.. ...

He might blow up or sumthin"!!!! :wow: :err: :rolleyes:

[Harald]

Quotes please.

Even if Ahmadinejad could be transliterated to have said "wipe of the map" it was not an existential threat against Israel.

So, let's hear it.

We've had bullshit holocaust denial and general Bush-quality brainpower but what threats are you talking about exactly? What exact hostile quotes are you referring to?

[tonton]

Quotes please x3.

God the "repeat the lie" mantra has reached epic proportions among right wingers. In the end it's the very thing that'll bite them in the ass the hardest. "Republican" (and right wing "Libertarian") will immediately bring to mind one word... liar.

It's like SDW, Trumpt, Jub, and Grabowski (and sadly even Spliney) are all getting in a circle, stroking their conjections and conjaculating into one huge pool of right wing conjecture! It's become literally incessant.

"Cutting taxes raises income! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Every major intelligence agency thought Saddam had WMD! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Criticizing Petraeus aids and comforts the enemy! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Iran wants to nuke Israel off the map! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Iran is developing nuclear weapons! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"

Christ, when does it stop? When Americans start to call out the lies, that's when.

And FYI Southside, Colombia is a country. Columbia University. District of Columbia. British Columbia. Though I totally expect you to claim it was a typo...

[@_@ Artman]

from Whitehouse.gov... (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-7.html)

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "We Will Soon Experience A World Without The United States And Zionism." AHMADINEJAD: "Undoubtedly, I say that this slogan and goal is achievable, and with the support and power of God, we will soon experience a world without the United States and Zionism and will breathe in the brilliant time of Islamic sovereignty over today's world." (Iran's President Warns Muslims Of 'Conspiracies Of World Imperialism,' Available At: www.sharifnews.com, Accessed 10/26/05)

* President Ahmadinejad: "Your Doomed Destiny Will Be Annihilation, Misfortune And Abjectness." AHMADINEJAD: "Open your eyes and see the fate of Pharaoh. … Open your eyes and see what happened to the Portuguese Empire. See the final fate of the British Empire. … I am telling you [major powers], if you do not abandon the path of falsehood and return to the path of justice, your doomed destiny will be annihilation, misfortune and abjectness." (President Ahmadinejad Says Iran To Respond To Nuclear Proposals By 'End Of Mordad,' Aired On Islamic Republic Of Iran News Network Television (IRINN), 6/21/06)

* President Ahmadinejad: "The Anger Of Muslims May Reach An Explosion Point Soon … [And] The Waves Of The Blast Will Not Remain Within The Boundaries Of Our Region." AHMADINEJAD: "The anger of Muslims may reach an explosion point soon. If such a day comes, they [Western governments] should know that the waves of the blast will not remain within the boundaries of our region and will engulf the corrupt powers that support this fake regime too." (Iran: President Reaffirms Warning Of Explosion Of Muslim Anger In Tabriz Address, Aired On Tehran Islamic Republic Of Iran News Network Television (IRINN), 7/11/06)

* President Ahmadinejad: "If You Would Like To Have Good Relations With The Iranian Nation … Bow Down Before The Greatness Of The Iranian Nation And Surrender." AHMADINEJAD: "And you, for your part, if you would like to have good relations with the Iranian nation in the future, recognize the Iranian nation's right. Recognize the Iranian nation's greatness. And bow down before the greatness of the Iranian nation and surrender. If you don't accept [to do this], the Iranian nation will later force you to surrender and bow down." (Iran: Ahmadinejad Says US, UK 'Resorted To Tricks' 'To Postpone' Cease-Fire, Aired On Tehran Islamic Republic Of Iran News Network Television (IRINN), 8/15/06)


I did a search for "Ahmadinejad death to america (http://www.google.com/search?q=Ahmadinejad+death+to+america&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)" in Google. In none of these quotes do I see "Death to America", but I have seen the rallies where he has spoken and the audience are the ones who chant this. But I have to reiterate that the President is merely a tool for the Ayatollah and his ilk.

Hate to Godwin again, but he is their "Goebbels". Their propaganda sock puppet.

Here is a speech held at the Amir Kabir University in Tehran by Ahmadinejad (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1800862314447729257).

The students in attendance are pro and anti Ahmadinejad. Looks like a fun time had by all. Boy, would I love to see the Colombia University speech...

[tonton]

Hi Harald!

[segovius]

from Whitehouse.gov... (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-7.html)

I wouldn't call the White House an objective source and would also be willing to bet there are no Farsi speakers on staff - the Military and Intel hardly do Arabic and they really ARE at war with an Arabic speaking nation - and in any event there is a 90% plus chance that is a Memri translation.

I will try to get an objective version with original Farsi of some of those....

Meanwhile:

But I have to reiterate that the President is merely a tool for the Ayatollah and his ilk.

I do not think the Supreme Leader has an ilk and even if he does they are certainly not in harmony with the President as such.

The fact is that he was democratically elected as a direct reaction to US machismo and threats and were it not for these Iran would have moved in a more moderate and liberal direction.

[@_@ Artman]

I wouldn't call the White House an objective source and would also be willing to bet there are no Farsi speakers on staff - the Military and Intel hardly do Arabic and they really ARE at war with an Arabic speaking nation - and in any event there is a 90% plus chance that is a Memri translation.

I will try to get an objective version with original Farsi of some of those....

I was merely going to our propaganda. The source is definitely questionable...and so is theirs on many occasions (watch the speech).

I do not think the Supreme Leader has an ilk and even if he does they are certainly not in harmony with the President as such.

The fact is that he was democratically elected as a direct reaction to US machismo and threats and were it not for these Iran would have moved in a more moderate and liberal direction.

Judging by that speech, their is a lot of "machismo" on their end too. He has the right to speak here. He even has the right to visit the WTC memorial site (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sen-mike-gravel/let-ahmadinejad-go-to-gro_b_65604.html). I mean come on, we let Ronny go to Bitburg...:rolleyes:

http://www.bartcop.com/bitburg.jpg

[segovius]

I was merely going to our propaganda. The source is definitely questionable...and so is theirs on many occasions (watch the speech).

Ok, I'm listening to it now...what do you object to in it?

[@_@ Artman]

Ok, I'm listening to it now...what do you object to in it?

I actually was impressed by two things that there were pro and anti students there, that there was dissent. Democracy Iranian style. Why the fuck can we show Iran that we can practice the same thing instead of barring him and censoring him in the "land of liberty"?

I'm befuddled to say the least...:err:

[southside grabowski]

Quotes please x3.

God the "repeat the lie" mantra has reached epic proportions among right wingers. In the end it's the very thing that'll bite them in the ass the hardest. "Republican" (and right wing "Libertarian") will immediately bring to mind one word... liar.

It's like SDW, Trumpt, Jub, and Grabowski (and sadly even Spliney) are all getting in a circle, stroking their conjections and conjaculating into one huge pool of right wing conjecture! It's become literally incessant.

"Cutting taxes raises income! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Every major intelligence agency thought Saddam had WMD! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Criticizing Petraeus aids and comforts the enemy! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Iran wants to nuke Israel off the map! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"
"Iran is developing nuclear weapons! Everybody knows it! It's a fact! It's common sense!"

Christ, when does it stop? When Americans start to call out the lies, that's when.

And FYI Southside, Colombia is a country. Columbia University. District of Columbia. British Columbia. Though I totally expect you to claim it was a typo...



I can't help it if you gringos don't know how to spell Colombia:lol:

You are such a simple and predictable fellow TT

[segovius]

I actually was impressed by two things that there were pro and anti students there, that there was dissent. Democracy Iranian style. Why the fuck can we show Iran that we can practice the same thing instead of barring him and censoring him in the "land of liberty"?

I'm befuddled to say the least...:err:

Yes, that is important - but I think that also Ahmedinejad is not good for Iran and has applied very restrictive and oppressive policies.

Sure, there was dissent there but who knows what may have happened to the dissenters? I think he is capable of oppressive action. Certainly he censors many things in the media and internet.

People seem to think I support him - I do not, imo, he is very, very bad for Iran - but the only 'evidence' so far used to prove his hostile intentions internationally has been lies. And when people lie it is generally because they cannot produce 'proof' any other way.

Imo, he is a perceived 'strongman' who people have turned to because they are scared by US threats and sabre-rattling and are prepared to put up with a little oppression because they believe he can 'protect them'. Bit like Bush in the US really.

He will be gone when things die down (if) but unfortunately it is a bad chess move because it benefits Neocon hawks more.....but they still need to lie. But he is someone who can be lied about easily enough....

[@_@ Artman]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/photorally.jpg

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visits Columbia University today. J-schoolers report. (http://apresidentvisits.blogspot.com/2007/09/image-from-rally.html)

[Jubelum]

Wow.. I didn't realize that Prez Tom had such a loyal following of apologists here at PO. You guys are right. Iran is not a threat to anyone. At all. They are a completely benign influence. Nevermind those terrorists they are funding. Never mind that holocaust denial. Never mind the IEDs that are killing US soldiers in Iraq.

I'm waiting for Sinead to show up here at PO, tear a picture of Bush in half, and tell us to fight the real enemy.

I love you guys. Stay tuned... your peaceful victim of the NeoCon machine will reveal, in a way you cannot spin, what he is all about. By then it will be too late. But hey, those terrorist Americans and Zionists will have deserved it, correct?

[southside grabowski]

OMG.

"In Iran we don;t have homosexuals like you have in your country" got a huge boo.

Very Funny. The best strategy for those against this character is to let him open his mouth. Let the people hear directly what he has to say (albeit through an interpreter).

[Jubelum]

"In Iran we don;t have homosexuals like you have in your country"

see... the guy IS delusional.. :lol:

This must cause a REAL problem for many of Prez Tom's US supporters. He's a hater, but it's OK because he hates Israel more than his own gay population. Take the good with the bad, I guess. At least he is consistent and on-message... Hitler hated the Jews and exterminated gays as well. 8-)

[@_@ Artman]

You guys are right. Iran is not a threat to anyone. At all. They are a completely benign influence. Nevermind those terrorists they are funding. Never mind that holocaust denial. Never mind the IEDs that are killing US soldiers in Iraq.

Please, please, pretty please cite these points, because most have been debunked. I'm not trying to defend this sock-puppet, just his right to speak and appear anywhere he wants. If Ted (I'm a fuckin' nutjob) Nugent can do it, so can he.

EDIT: Oh forget it. The appearance at Colombia University is over...

Columbia University President Lee Bollinger excoriated Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday, going through a long list of documented actions and remarks by the firebrand Iranian leader and his government.

"Mr. President, you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator," Bollinger said to applause from many of the 600 people in the room for a speech from the Iranian leader.

He cited the Iranian government's "brutal crackdown" on dissidents, public executions, executions of minors and other actions.

And Bollinger assailed Ahmadinejad's "denying" of the Holocaust as "ridiculous" and "dangerous propaganda." He called the Iranian leader either brazenly provocative "or astonishingly uneducated."

"The truth is that the Holocaust is the most documented event in human history," he said.

He said he doubted Ahmadinejad would show the intellectual courage to answer the questions before him.

Ahmadinejad responded quickly.

"We don't think it's necessary before the speech is given to come in with some series of claims," the Iranian leader said.

He said Bollinger's comments included "insults" and false claims, and flew in the face of an environment that's supposed to let people speak their minds.

On the Holocaust, Ahmadinejad asked why history can't be questioned and further researched.

"If the Holocaust is a reality of our time, a history that occurred, why is there not sufficient research that can approach the topic from different perspectives?" he asked.

While he would not respond with a "yes" or "no" when asked if he sought the destruction of Israel, he said the status of Israel should be determined by a free election.

"Let the people of Palestine freely choose what they want for their future," he said.

Asked about widely documented government abuse of women and homosexuals in his country, Ahmadinejad said, "We don't have homosexuals" in Iran. "I don't know who told you we had it," he said.

Well, that sent the whole proceedings to hell. What an idiot. We're all idiots. This could send the message to the White House that war is the only answer. They certainly have the support now. We could be doomed...

[Jubelum]

Please, please, pretty please cite these points, because most have been debunked. I'm not trying to defend this sock-puppet, just his right to speak and appear anywhere he wants. If Ted (I'm a fuckin' nutjob) Nugent can do it, so can he.

Debunking by apologists is not debunking. I do not buy everything the Jerusalem Post has quoted, but neither do I buy that this whack-job is not sabre-rattling and acting in support of groups who are killing Americans and Israelis.

Why is the military sending Farsi interpreters out with EOD to do cleanup and debriefing?
To teach language classes?

And because you brought it up... Ted Nugent needs his head examined. Seriously.

[southside grabowski]

Indeed, let him speak.:lol:

[Jubelum]

Well, that sent the whole proceedings to hell. What an idiot. We're all idiots. This could send the message to the White House that war is the only answer. They certainly have the support now. We could be doomed...

Maybe Bollinger is afraid that Columbia could be the target of a divestment (http://www.columbiadivest.org/) campaign, rather than the proponent of one...

I love it.. Prez Tom swerves toward Holocaust denial at the exact moment some of you here are claiming that he's been misquoted and that those claims have been debunked. Better get some ice on that... it's gonna swell. :D

[@_@ Artman]

Maybe Bollinger is afraid that Columbia could be the target of a divestment (http://www.columbiadivest.org/) campaign, rather than the proponent of one...



Ulp! Good find. Artman has a moment of clarity "@_@". Ironically, I knew this all along. :no:

I love it.. Prez Tom swerves toward Holocaust denial at the exact moment some of you here are claiming that he's been misquoted and that those claims have been debunked. Better get some ice on that... it's gonna swell. :D

From President Imadinnerjacket...

On the Holocaust, Ahmadinejad asked why history can't be questioned and further researched.

"If the Holocaust is a reality of our time, a history that occurred, why is there not sufficient research that can approach the topic from different perspectives?" he asked.

Why not? He never said it didn't happen.

[@_@ Artman]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w222/WNightBlade/nydnwtf.jpg

[sammi jo]

Wow.. I didn't realize that Prez Tom had such a loyal following of apologists here at PO. You guys are right. Iran is not a threat to anyone. At all. They are a completely benign influence.

Nobody here is "apologizing" for Ahmadinejad, or knowingly claiming that he is a man of integrity, or a fine leader, or anything remotely positive. He is an Islamist radical, and I have no good words to say about anyone who is so wrapped up in mythology and medieval patriarchal hogwash, no matter from what faith the hogwash originates. Just let the man speak and see if his principles stand up to the test of tough questions. At least he is prepared to take unscripted, unscreened questions from a very hostile section in his audience, which is a 1000% better than what Bush, Cheney and company allow.. ie nobody who has a dissenting viewpoint are allowed within 3 fvcking miles of those weasels.... Cowardice is defined by this current "administration".

Nevermind those terrorists they are funding.

Funding terrorism? Thats mighty rich coming from someone who supports an administration, a number of whose officials have openly supported or been personally involved in actual terrorist acts in other parts of the world, especially in Central America. Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Never mind that holocaust denial.

Let him speak on the subject and get ridiculed, perhaps even educated (with luck). Communication and dialog always helps civilized values, but doesn't help the war-mongers and their profiteering motives. That's probably why Ahmadinejad is having a hard time getting a platform here.

Never mind the IEDs that are killing US soldiers in Iraq.

Put yourself in the theoretical situation of having your country occupied by foreign troops, many of whom (through no fault of their own, merely the result of the brainwashing that accompanies any military training program) regard all the inhabitants of that country as "the enemy" partly because of their religion. I know where I would be if the US was occupied by a hostile enemy.. and I'm sure you would be doing the same kind of thing, that is, if you cared a damn about your country.

I'm waiting for Sinead to show up here at PO, tear a picture of Bush in half, and tell us to fight the real enemy.

And who is the real enemy? According to the Neocon hate machine, which has a very real and influential presence within this administration and the boardrooms of corporate America (and the mainstream media), the enemy is all muslims, all over the world. Brand them all as terrorists, or potential terrorists, and drag the gullible public along with unlimited media support, and *BINGO*.. we got a war for evermore. Mission accomplished.

I love you guys. Stay tuned... your peaceful victim of the NeoCon machine will reveal, in a way you cannot spin, what he is all about. By then it will be too late. But hey, those terrorist Americans and Zionists will have deserved it, correct?

????? huh?

[Jubelum]

coming from someone who supports an administration, a number of whose officials have openly supported or been personally involved in actual terrorist acts in other parts of the world, especially in Central America. Give me a break. :rolleyes:

You must be confused. Embarrassingly so. I've been very critical of many US foreign policy decisions, both with and outside of this administration. Especially those concerning interventionism, covert action, and low intensity conflicts. So go find whoever it is you are thinking of, and tell them all about it.

if you cared a damn about your country.

This from someone who cannot find one redeeming quality in the United States of America, it's elected leaders, or military. Rich.

And who is the real enemy? According to the Neocon hate machine, which has a very real and influential presence within this administration and the boardrooms of corporate America (and the mainstream media), the enemy is all muslims, all over the world. Brand them all as terrorists, or potential terrorists, and drag the gullible public along with unlimited media support, and *BINGO*.. we got a war for evermore. Mission accomplished.


You are making HUGE sense here. You've hit the elements. Corporatism. Neo Cons. Hatred of Muslims. Throw in references to Halliburton, Betrayus, and Israeli as a terrorist state and you'll get bonus points. Your "America Hates Muslims and Muslims are Always Victims" screeds are becoming tiresome. We get it-any action that concerns force against someone who happens to be Muslim is grounds for an accusation of racism.

Jesse and Sharpton have taught you well. 8-)

I love you guys. Stay tuned... your peaceful victim of the NeoCon machine will reveal, in a way you cannot spin, what he is all about. By then it will be too late. But hey, those terrorist Americans and Zionists will have deserved it, correct?

And btw... before your edit, I did catch your post that "truer words were never spoken in jest" - glad you think we all deserve it. :no:

[@_@ Artman]

In order to play cowboys and indians you need indians.

[Jubelum]

In order to play cowboys and indians you need indians.

Is there any doubt from watching Al Jazeera that we are indians, conversely?

[SDW2001]

Wow.

OK, AhmadiNejad has allegedly said some aggressive things about Israel, as reported and translated to the western media by MEMRI (which is notoriously biased towards the Jewish state), so doubt is thus cast on the accuracy of his speech's translation anyway, especially when on other occasions he has referred to Jews as "his brothers and sisters", and to the Jewish religion as "a noble faith". (Of course, this doesn't get any publicity because it's "off message"). But it is understandable that some folk are antsy about him from the constant barrage of unsubstantiated claims about Iran developing nuclear weapons... a parallel to how the Bush Administration LIED re. Iraq.


Right...here we go again. It's the "lost in translation" argument. This man has a greatest hits CD with his anti-semitic rants. He DID agree with the statement that Israel should be wiped off the map. He HAS made threats towards Israel. Trying to deny this is just silly. These are facts. Not "facts" mind you. FACTS.



So... what exactly has Ahmadinejad DONE that enrages this administration and our yellow media? Has he attacked anyone?

Iran is an international sponsor of terrorism. They fund Hezbollah and Hamas. They are sending fighters into Iraq. They are sending weapons into Iraq. I know you'd love to believe that it's the Lying Bush Administration(TM), but the evidence is clear. They have close ties with Syria, another terrorist state. They have threatened Israel REPEATEDLY, no matter how you try to deny it. "The Jewish State cannot continue to exist." Please.


Iran hasn't attacked anyone in recent history, and spent 8 years defending itself a a war with Iraq when Saddam Hussein, allied with the US, attacked Iran.

That's true.

If the likes of Henry Kissinger and Ollie North, both of whom have been described as a "war criminal" and a "terrorist" (with lots of solid evidence to support those claims) go round the lecture circuit at >$50,000 a pop (instead of languishing behind bars for life if there was any real justice in this country), then what's the big problem with Ahmadinejad speaking here? His speaking and being questioned by an audience light put him on the spot, if there were any truth to the accusations.. ...

Funny...the latter of which is also considered to be a hero by many. And you're off topic anyway.



Iran is NOT America's enemy, and never has been. This whole thing is another pile of steaming propaganda, bullshit and paranoia spewed up from the bowels of the NeoConservative Islamophobic hate machine, all designed to steer the gullible public into believing that theres another boogeyman out there to get us.

You are just so deluded I can't find the words. Iran is defying the international community. It's repressing it's population. It's got an illegal nuclear program. It's threating Israel's existence. It is possibly developing nuclear weapons. It's run by Islamic Fundamentalists who subscribe to a version of Islam that calls for the destruction of the United States and Israel in order to be a "good muslim." It calls for a world Islamic government. It calls for the bringing on of the apocolypse as a means to these ends.

In fact, the similarities to Hitler's Germany are striking....absolutely striking. The only thing they lack is the world's most powerful conventional military. And they really won't need that if they develop a nuke, now will they?

Quotes please....(and not the debunked 'wipe off map' nonsense)...

When I get home, maybe. But you'll just claim President Tom was "mistranslated."

As for President Tom speaking, I don't believe he should be allowed to. The academic freedom debate extends a lot of leeway to speakers with various messages, but this is where I personally draw the line. No good will come from his "presenting his ideas." A public debate will not benefit anyone when the person speaking is spewing propaganda. In other words, in theory I can understand the argument for him speaking. In reality, it's just not appropriate. The man runs the nation that is foremost sponsor of terror in the world, and is coming to the City that suffered worst terrorist attack in history. In fact, this man and his country's government are indirectly responsible for that attack based on their general support of terror for 30 years. In the real world, we don't let those kind of people have a platform from which to sweet talk the well meaning but gullible liberal masses.

[@_@ Artman]

Christ on a popsicle stick SDW, what a windbag you've become. Is it worth mentioning that the U.S. is closely allied with countries (like Saudi Arabia) that are much, much worse than Iran?

But forget it. You got your war(s). Enjoy. :no:

[segovius]

The question really is not what are Ahmedinejad's views - they are reprehensible no doubt, he is surely a homophobe and most likely a racist - but more: is what the detractors are claiming in their push for war correct?

The answer is: no. They are lying.

Two points:

1) He did not deny the Holocaust. He called it a 'myth'. This is the same word used by the Jewish scholar Finkelstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein) who has just been hounded out of his job for suggesting that Zionist use the Holocaust for profit and gain and hence perpetuate a 'myth'.

It is not 'Holocaust Denial' it is 'Zionist monopoly of genocide denial' and I for one support it in both cases.

There is no-one more anti-Nazi than me and I will oppose racists and fascists wherever I see them whether that is in the BNP, the White House or on these boards. As yet I am not seeing any in the Iranian leadership.

2) Stinking double standards: again, the question is whether Ahmedinejad is a THREAT. if one wants to wheel out his objectionable views as evidence that he is then fair enough, let's have a level playing field.

Let's also brand every US racist homophobe preacher - any one of whom says far worse then the Iranian President and far more effectively on any random day - as a threat also.

But let's all wait until SDW finishes his Farsi translations and in-depth textual unbiased objective analysis before we rush to judgement.....

[segovius]

Legislatures May Act on Columbia (http://www.nysun.com/article/63232)

As the president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, prepares to address Columbia University today amid a storm of student protest, state and city lawmakers say they are considering withholding public funds from the school to protest its decision to invite the leader to campus.

In an interview with The New York Sun, the speaker of the Assembly, Sheldon Silver, said lawmakers, outraged over Columbia's insistence on allowing the Iranian president to speak at its World Leaders Forum, would consider reducing capital aid and other financial assistance to the school.

[segovius]

In other news: Rabbis Say Iran Seeks Peace, Respects Judaism - Calls for True Dialogue With Ahmadinejad (http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/09/rabbis-say-iran-seeks-peace-respects.html)

Despite the fact that there is a thriving Jewish community in Iran - all unmolested and free to practice their religion (unlike in US ally Saudi Arabia) - the 'hating Israel' stupidity is still being played.

I guess it flies with wingnuts and people who know very little about Iran but Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, spokesman of Neturei Karta International, is clearly not one of them and has just issued the following statement:

"It is always our pleasure to visit with President Ahmadinejad. This will be the third such meeting, in addition to our many visits to Iran in the past. We have each time emphasized to the Iranian leadership that, despite media hysteria and the statements of some misinformed Jews, we have found the Iranian people and their leaders to be friendly and respectful.

"Likewise, although we as Jews are not to be involved in politics, (According to Jewish law, Jewish people are required to be loyal citizens to the countries wherein they reside), We have found the Iranian President to be a deeply religious man, dedicated to a peaceful world, based on mutual respect, fairness and dialogue.

"Judaism seeks peace. Unfortunately, there are some Jews today, influenced by the barely century old, philosophy of Zionism, who feel that the proper Jewish response to enemies, be they real or fantasized, is aggression and calls for violence and unfortunately attempts to drag other nations down the path of war.

"It is sad that so few have actually attempted to speak to the Iranian President or seek the true opinion of Iranian Jewry who live in peace and practice their faith throughout that nation. We have met this man who has demonstrated time and again that he is sincerely interested in the well being of Iran's Jewish community and has deep respect for world Jewry and their Torah faith, The Zionist attempt to socially isolate this man and his people is immoral and disastrous.

"Zionism is antithetical to Torah beliefs. It believes in creating our own sovereign entity which is expressly forbidden due to the Divine decree of exile. This ideology leads to aggression against nations and is incarnated in the State of 'Israel.' This State continually oppresses other people in the name of Judaism and the entire Jewish people. This movement has exacerbated anti Semitism throughout the world. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad understands this distinction between traditional Judaism and Zionist distortion.

The whole statement is well worthy of a read. We can only hope for the good of all and the future peace and prosperity of Jews, Christians, Muslims and anyone else that the sickness of Zionism really will soon be 'wiped off the amp' of history.

[audiopollution]

Legislatures May Act on Columbia (http://www.nysun.com/article/63232)

What a fucking joke.

[Jubelum]

Bollinger took a stand. Those that give money to Columbia are free to do the same.

[@_@ Artman]

Is there any doubt from watching Al Jazeera that we are indians, conversely?

We have always been at war with Eastasia...:err:

[southside grabowski]

What a fucking joke.



Do these people have a clue how ignorant they sound? Ted Poe has called for CU to relocate to Tehran:lol:

[e1618978]

The answer is: no. They are lying.

It is pretty clear from the interview you posted in the other thread that he is supplying weapons used to kill US soldiers, which is why we should bomb Iran.

[@_@ Artman]

Ok. Forget that link...it's dead.

Windows Media, but if you have flip4mac it should work (I don't know, I'm on Windows at work right now).

C-Span has it too (http://www.c-span.org/) (Recent Programs section), but I've never gotten their links to launch RealPlayer here at work. RealPlayer is more evil than President Ahmadinejad...I swear it. :smokey:

[SDW2001]

Christ on a popsicle stick SDW, what a windbag you've become. Is it worth mentioning that the U.S. is closely allied with countries (like Saudi Arabia) that are much, much worse than Iran?

But forget it. You got your war(s). Enjoy. :no:

I don't believe your statement about Saudi Arabia being "much much worse" is accurate. This is not to say they are without serious problems. They certainly oppress women, for example. They certainly have a serious terror problem. And for years they looked the other way if not tacitly encouraged terror.

But here's the difference: Saudi Arabia is not pursuing an illegal nuclear program. Saudi Arabia, while certainly not friendly to Israel, is not threatening it directly. Saudi Arabia is not, as a matter of government policy, sponsoring terrorism. They are not sending fighters to Iraq, nor are they sending weapons.

Saudi Arabia is not even the same, much less worse.

[SDW2001]

The question really is not what are Ahmedinejad's views - they are reprehensible no doubt, he is surely a homophobe and most likely a racist - but more: is what the detractors are claiming in their push for war correct?

The answer is: no. They are lying.

Who are "the detractors" and who specifically is "pushing for war?"



Two points:

1) He did not deny the Holocaust. He called it a 'myth'. This is the same word used by the Jewish scholar Finkelstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein) who has just been hounded out of his job for suggesting that Zionist use the Holocaust for profit and gain and hence perpetuate a 'myth'.

It is not 'Holocaust Denial' it is 'Zionist monopoly of genocide denial' and I for one support it in both cases.

There is no-one more anti-Nazi than me and I will oppose racists and fascists wherever I see them whether that is in the BNP, the White House or on these boards. As yet I am not seeing any in the Iranian leadership.


:lol::lol::lol:

That is perhaps the most intellectually dishonest statement I've seen from you...ever. His statement clearly was meant to question whether or not the Holocaust happened....at all. That sir, is tantamount to "holocaust denial." The evidence of the severity of the holocaust is overwhelming as I'm sure you damn well know. Exploring its existence in a supposed academic setting like the "World Without Zionism" conference is like researching whether or not there are people on planet Earth over 6 feet tall.

Short version: His statement amounts to a denial. He did everything short of saying "It didn't happen. Period."

There is no-one more anti-Nazi than me and I will oppose racists and fascists wherever I see them whether that is in the BNP, the White House or on these boards. As yet I am not seeing any in the Iranian leadership.

:wow: So here's a guy that runs a country that has no freedom of the press, is pursuing an illegal nuclear program, has at least extremely hostile views towards Israel and the United States, is (as you describe) a racist and a homophobe, and yet the fascism you see is in the governments of the United States, Great Britain, and on the boards of Appleinsider?!?!?! Pardon me, but I must ask you a question.

What the F#%! ?





2) Stinking double standards: again, the question is whether Ahmedinejad is a THREAT. if one wants to wheel out his objectionable views as evidence that he is then fair enough, let's have a level playing field.

Let's also brand every US racist homophobe preacher - any one of whom says far worse then the Iranian President and far more effectively on any random day - as a threat also.

But let's all wait until SDW finishes his Farsi translations and in-depth textual unbiased objective analysis before we rush to judgement.....

If your point is that we should condemn racist homophobes, I'm totally with you. Racism and homophobia have no place here, and must be derided wherever they are found.

HOWEVER: This does not mean that a preacher who believes that homosexuality is a sin is a homophobe. This does not mean that someone who opposes affirmative action and supports limited profiling at airports is a racist.

But you'll disagree, which is the most ironic part of this thing. Anyone who does not share your "enlightened" views is attacked as a racist, a homophobe, etc. What you fail to realize is that this line of thinking makes you the very thing you're supposedly dedicated to opposing: A fascist.

[screener]

Please, please, pretty please cite these points, because most have been debunked. I'm not trying to defend this sock-puppet, just his right to speak and appear anywhere he wants. If Ted (I'm a fuckin' nutjob) Nugent can do it, so can he.

EDIT: Oh forget it. The appearance at Colombia University is over...



Well, that sent the whole proceedings to hell. What an idiot. We're all idiots. This could send the message to the White House that war is the only answer. They certainly have the support now. We could be doomed...

"Ted (I'm a fuckin' nutjob) Nugent":lol::lol::lol:

"We're all idiots."

Being afraid of what he might say, yeah, idiots at best, cowards at worst.

C'mon, giving this nutjob a platform just shows what a nutjob he is.
Anyone that thinks this is a positive for him is totally nuts.

[Splinemodel]

It's like SDW, Trumpt, Jub, and Grabowski (and sadly even Spliney) are all getting in a circle, stroking their conjections and conjaculating into one huge pool of right wing conjecture! It's become literally incessant.

It's a foil to the same thing going on by the extreme left AI'ers. When it comes to ethics I'm a black & white guy, and I happened to pick western secularism over traditional Islam. I'm simply not convinced that the proverbial town -- Israel and Europe -- is big enough for the two of them (or, us), and when it comes to blows I know where I stand. I don't have a problem the Iranian president giving a lecture, though. Seriously. Go for it. When I was in college, I heard plenty of bullshit lectures from dopey guests -- I can't say I find this any different.

Of course, let's just get to the bottom of it. It's not about free speech, Iran, Ahmadinejad, the war, or anything like that. It's about a bunch of people who have gained sufficient media attention by being contrarians in the face of the current, Bush-led American government that they've become intoxicated with themselves, and will do whatever it takes to keep the bandwagon going. Yes, I know the whole political game is silly, on both sides, but with the modern left there are no thoughts of solutions, just defeatist banter. It's fucking depressing, and I choose not to be depressed. Life will go on, and I'd rather it go on with Jews still in Israel. Hell, they designed many of Intel's chips, and that has a very direct affect on my life. The Islamic middle east, not so much.

[SpamSandwich]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/photorally.jpg

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visits Columbia University today. J-schoolers report. (http://apresidentvisits.blogspot.com/2007/09/image-from-rally.html)

That kid with the sign has it right.

Let Ahmadinejad discredit himself with his own words.

[SpamSandwich]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w222/WNightBlade/nydnwtf.jpg

"The Daily News"? :lol: :lol: :lol: With headlines like those, who needs the National Enquirer?

[Nightcrawler]

I saw a footage of the speech and interview of Ahmadinejad at Columbia University.

It was very entertaining, because Ahmadinejad was so very right on many points.

First he made clear that he got invited to speak there, and he stressed the point that normally invited guests should be respected and not insulted, at least in iranian culture it would be that way. He made this point in reference to the introduction given by Bollinger, who called Ahmadinejad a petty and cruel dictator.

The next good point he made was about the nuclear programme that Iran pursued, namely that it were for civilian use and that the IAEA would be constantly investigating it and that till this day no report of the IAEA found that Iran were deviating from the civilian use.
He also explained quite well why Iran insists on mastering the whole enrichment-cycle: That years/decades ago, Iran asked the west to help it in developing its nuclear programme but was rejected, that the west put embargoes upon Iran denying it deliverements of avionic parts... and that the only logical conclusion from that would be to master the technology themselves in order to be independent from the west's unreliable hand.
He also made a good point by accusing the US of developing new sorts of nukes, eventhough the non-proliferation-act is calling for the nuke-possessors to stop devloping new ones, to stop testings, and to abolish their stockpiles.

The third good point he made was regarding the holocaust, namely that the topic should be open to unrestricted research and that researchers should not be imprisoned just because they deny keyaspects of the holocaust. I think he is right, even holocaust-deniers should not be emprisoned for their deviating views and if they are wrong should be challenged and debunked academically. Currently there are a few european holocaust-revisionists and deniers that got emprisoned because of their views.

It was good that Ahmadinejad did not deny that the holocaust happened and instead stated the question: Why should palestinians pay the price for the crimes of europeans/christians/germans/russians...?


He mentioned by the way Israel in the same breath with South-Africa's apartheit-regime, and that it was Iran's policy to not recognize any of them. I agree with the stance, they are very similar and have all the time been allies.
Ahmadinejad proposed that the conflict should be solved with a referendum where all the people living in the area of Palestine should decide their future form of state and government, and that whatever the outcome, the decision should be respected internationally and would be by Iran.

I guess he speculates that the jews in Israel have not the same ideology and stance as their leaders.

I'm not that optimistic.

He also made an excellent point by mentioning that the US would not allow him to visit ground zero and pay respect to the victims. Unfortunately he forgot to mention that there were also iranian victims working in the WTC while the attack happened.
He painted Iran as being the first victim of terrorism citing the murder of its former president and former primeminister and a lot of parliamentaries and 4,000 iranian civilians through bombings conducted by a terror-group that is being protected by the US in the US and in Iraq.
He should have mentioned this terror-attack by the US as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

but he didn't. Instead he rejected the allegations that Iran would equip terrorists in Iraq with iranian weapons, saying these were false allegations made by the US-administration in order to distract from its own failings.
Fact is though that iranian weapons were discovered in Iraq and used by shia militias against the coalition forces. The question is, does Iran deliver them deliberately or is there some weapon-trade-smuggling going on that is not controlled by the iranian government.
Unfortunately he missed the opportunity to state that the biggest weapon-trader in the world is the US, supplying weapons to militias in all kind of conflicts around the world, espescially in Africa, but at least he made the very good point, that the US and a lot of other western nations supported Saddam Hussein, militarily and financially, during the 8 years of the war started by Iraq, during which hundreds of thousands iranians died, thousands of them through exposition to chemical weapons.


All in all he did pretty well and articulated his arguments in a very intelligent way, way better than I thought, he even managed to explain the executions in Iran by saying that even in the US there were capital punishment, and that people that ruin the lifes of hundreds of other people, like drug-dealers or murderers should be somehow confronted, and that were the law in Iran.

But then he blundered, when asked why Iran executes homosexuals. He answered, there were not homosexuals in Iran like in the US ...

Instead he should have answered that any outside-marriage-sex were illegal in Iran according to their conservative interpretation of sharia-law, and that rape, sodomy, adultery were viewed as similar violations with varying punishments from lashings up to executions, when confessed four times or witnessed by four persons.

Additionaly he could have explained that it was a religious law that were not open to arbitrary changes, except for scholarly interpretation, but that it would in any case not be the business of anyone but Iran.



Except for the blunder, he made a good job in a hostile environment and kept his cool.

Nightcrawler

[talksense101]

Iran was neither building a bomb nor headed for war

New York: Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad arrived in New York to protests and said in a television interview that Iran was neither building a nuclear bomb nor headed to war with the United States.
The president’s motorcade on Sunday pulled up to the midtown hotel where he will be staying while he appears at a series of events including the UN General Assembly and a forum at Columbia University, where about 40 elected officials and civic leaders decried his visit.
Ahmadinejad’s public-relations push appears aimed at presenting his views directly to a US audience amid rising strains and talk of war between the two nations. Tensions are high between Washington and Tehran over US accusations that Iran is secretly trying to develop nuclear weapons, as well as helping Shiite militias in Iraq that target US troops— claims Iran denies.
“Well, you have to appreciate we don’t need a nuclear bomb. We don’t need that. What need do we have for a bomb?” Ahmadinejad said in the “60 Minutes” interview taped in Iran on Thursday. “In political relations right now, the nuclear bomb is of no use. If it was useful it would have prevented the downfall of the Soviet Union.”
He also said that: “It’s wrong to think that Iran and the US are walking toward war. Who says so? Why should we go to war? There is no war in the offing.”
Before leaving Iran, Ahmadinejad said the American people have been denied “correct information,” and his visit will give them a chance to hear a different voice, the official IRNA news agency reported.
Washington has said it is addressing the Iran situation diplomatically, rather than militarily, but US officials also say that all options are open. The commander of the US military forces in the Middle East said he did not believe tensions will lead to war.
“This constant drum beat of conflict is what strikes me, which is not helpful and not useful,” Adm. William Fallon, head of US Central Command, said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, which made a partial transcript available on Sunday.
Ahmadinejad’s scheduled address to the UN General Assembly on Tuesday will be his third time attending the New York meeting in three years. But his request to lay a wreath at ground zero was denied by city officials and condemned by politicians who said a visit to the site of the 2001 terror attacks would violate sacred ground.
Police cited construction and security concerns in denying Ahmadinejad’s request. Ahmadinejad told 60 Minutes he would not press the issue but expressed disbelief that the visit would offend Americans.
After the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, hundreds of young Iranians held a series of candlelight vigils in Tehran. “Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps air your views about the root causes of such incidents,” Ahmadinejad told the network. Iranian foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini also appeared dismayed that the request was rejected.

AP

This article is from a newspaper in India.

I really think Americans should start looking elsewhere for media that isn't a biased lying sack of shit. Amazingly, the US local media does seem to be able to brain wash the masses into supporting military action. Between Iran and the US, it is difficult to measure which nation is heading closer to Hitler's Germany.

[segovius]

This article is from a newspaper in India.

I really think Americans should start looking elsewhere for media that isn't a biased lying sack of shit. Amazingly, the US local media does seem to be able to brain wash the masses into supporting military action. Between Iran and the US, it is difficult to measure which nation is heading closer to Hitler's Germany.

Not really. The US has a track record of lying and invading other countries....Iran has threatened no-one and invaded no-one.

The masses in the US don't need much brainwashing, it's been done for decades. All that is needed is to portray someone as 'Hitler'.

First it was OBL, then Saddam, now Ahmedinejad.

the sad things is - apart from the mass murder and dead civilians - that these tools never learn no matter how many times they are lied to and manipulated. Just wind them up and off they go, spouting the same old rhetoric...

No matter that it's the hundredth time and every time was proven lies which ended in ignominious failure...they're still right there foaming, frothing and warning like some Old Testament Prophet on Largactyl.....

[@_@ Artman]

I saw a footage of the speech and interview of Ahmadinejad at Columbia University.

Except for the blunder, he made a good job in a hostile environment and kept his cool.

Nightcrawler

He's used to hostile environments, watch the speech I linked above.

Thank you for reviewing the speech. I don't think some others have even heard or read the whole speech. You mirrored my take on it completely.

Here's a complete transcript in printer friendly format (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/202820).

[sammi jo]

Who are "the detractors" and who specifically is "pushing for war?"

:lol::lol::lol:

That is perhaps the most intellectually dishonest statement I've seen from you...ever. His statement clearly was meant to question whether or not the Holocaust happened....at all. That sir, is tantamount to "holocaust denial." The evidence of the severity of the holocaust is overwhelming as I'm sure you damn well know. Exploring its existence in a supposed academic setting like the "World Without Zionism" conference is like researching whether or not there are people on planet Earth over 6 feet tall.

Short version: His statement amounts to a denial. He did everything short of saying "It didn't happen. Period."

:wow: So here's a guy that runs a country that has no freedom of the press,

is pursuing an illegal nuclear program, has at least extremely hostile views towards Israel and the United States, is (as you describe) a racist and a homophobe, and yet the fascism you see is in the governments of the United States, Great Britain, and on the boards of Appleinsider?!?!?! Pardon me, but I must ask you a question.

What the F#%! ?

If your point is that we should condemn racist homophobes, I'm totally with you. Racism and homophobia have no place here, and must be derided wherever they are found.

HOWEVER: This does not mean that a preacher who believes that homosexuality is a sin is a homophobe. This does not mean that someone who opposes affirmative action and supports limited profiling at airports is a racist.

But you'll disagree, which is the most ironic part of this thing. Anyone who does not share your "enlightened" views is attacked as a racist, a homophobe, etc. What you fail to realize is that this line of thinking makes you the very thing you're supposedly dedicated to opposing: A fascist.

SDW, you must be the king of double standards!

Why, in your mind, is it just fine and dandy for Israel to practise apartheid, ethnic cleansing, state sponsored terrorism, spying on (and in) the US with apparent impunity, refusing to allow weapons inspectors to check on their nuclear weapons stockpile, possession of biological and chemical weapons, decades of openly flouting UNSC Resolutions with over 60 infractions, .. once, they even attacked, without reason, a US Navy ship (USS Liberty) in the Mediterranean, and nobody even blinked.

When other Middle Eastern run afoul of international law, or sanction inhuman practises, you are all in favor of punishment. When Israel does it, you either don't acknowledge it, or you remain mute, or even attempt to justify it. This duplicity, as practised by a string of US administrations (both Republican and Democrat) since WW2, and seemingly endorsed by you and a few others on this board, is one of the reasons why the Middle East is in so much trouble. Do you feel that some semites (Arab/Muslim) are inferior forms of life to others(Israeli/Jewish)?

And by the way, the Iranian nuclear program was started in the 1950s as part of the "Atoms for Peace" program, with the help of the United States, and has been maintained ever since, apart from a brief period around 1979-1980 after Mohammed Pahlavi was deposed in the revolution. In half a century or more of research, they have manufactured or tested no nuclear weapons, and there is no evidence that they are now doing so.

[giant]

But then he blundered, when asked why Iran executes homosexuals. He answered, there were not homosexuals in Iran like in the US ...

Instead he should have answered that any outside-marriage-sex were illegal in Iran according to their conservative interpretation of sharia-law, and that rape, sodomy, adultery were viewed as similar violations with varying punishments from lashings up to executions, when confessed four times or witnessed by four persons.

Additionaly he could have explained that it was a religious law that were not open to arbitrary changes, except for scholarly interpretation, but that it would in any case not be the business of anyone but Iran.
Indeed. All he had to do was say "we don't have homosexuals like you do in the US because we execute them according to an unchangeable law and it's none of your business, anyway." Really, who could argue with that?

[segovius]

Who are "the detractors" and who specifically is "pushing for war?"

People like you.

That is perhaps the most intellectually dishonest statement I've seen from you...ever. His statement clearly was meant to question whether or not the Holocaust happened....at all. That sir, is tantamount to "holocaust denial." The evidence of the severity of the holocaust is overwhelming as I'm sure you damn well know. Exploring its existence in a supposed academic setting like the "World Without Zionism" conference is like researching whether or not there are people on planet Earth over 6 feet tall.

Short version: His statement amounts to a denial. He did everything short of saying "It didn't happen. Period."

I was not going to reply to you as there is no evidence whatsoever that you would take on board. I really believe that you are consciously lying now..before I tended to think maybe you were just ill-informed...but you have been shown facts too many times to believe that. Now I know that you are promoting untruth - so this will be my last communication with you - you'll be pleased and relieved to hear!

From Ahmedinejad's personal website (http://www.president.ir/en/?ArtID=6747) - English version:

QUESTION: Mr. President, a further set of questions challenged your view of the Holocaust. Since the evidence that this occurred in Europe in the 1940s, as a result of the actions of the German Nazi government, since that -- those facts -- are well documented, why are you calling for additional research? There seems to be no purpose in doing so, other than to question whether the Holocaust actually occurred as a historical fact. Can you explain why you believe more research is needed into the facts of what are what are
incontrovertible?

AHMADINEJAD: Thank you very much for your question. I am an academic, and you are as well. Can you argue that researching a phenomenon is finished, forever done? Can we close the books for good on a historical event?

There are different perspectives that come to light after every research is done. Why should we stop research at all? Why should we stop the progress of science and knowledge?
You shouldn't ask me why I'm asking questions. You should ask yourselves why you think that that's questionable? Why do you want to stop the progress of science and research?
Do you ever take what's known as absolute in physics? We had principles in mathematics that were granted to be absolute in mathematics for over 800 years. But new science has gotten rid of those absolutisms, come forward other different logics of looking at mathematics and sort of turned the way we look at it as a science altogether after 800 years.

So, we must allow researchers, scholars, they investigate into everything, every phenomenon -- God, universe, human beings, history and civilization. Why should we stop that?
I am not saying that it didn't happen at all. This is not that judgment that I am passing here. I said, in my second question, granted this happened, what does it have to do with the Palestinian people?


Two points:

1) It is ironic that Ahmedinejad is arguing for free speech and the US seems to be in the position of saying 'no, there are areas where no research is allowed'. He even argues that we should question about God.....

2) He said "I am not saying that it didn't happen at all. This is not that judgment that I am passing here. I said, in my second question, granted this happened, "

Seems pretty unequivocal to me. For sure you will be lying on here again in no time saying he 'denies the holocaust' and 'wants Israel wiped off the map' but you won't have me correcting you.....fill your boots.

[SpamSandwich]

Ahmadinejad uses a double-standard when it suits him. He says "There are different perspectives that come to light after every research is done. Why should we stop research at all? Why should we stop the progress of science and knowledge?", yet he does not question 'sharia' law, nor any of the tenets of his belief system. They remain absolute. Definitely not the view of a "scientist" or academician.

[segovius]

Ahmadinejad uses a double-standard when it suits him. He says "There are different perspectives that come to light after every research is done. Why should we stop research at all? Why should we stop the progress of science and knowledge?", yet he does not question 'sharia' law, nor any of the tenets of his belief system. They remain absolute. Definitely not the view of a "scientist" or academician.

I do not know what Ahmedinejad's stance is on questioning these things but the original Islamic one as derived from the Qur'an is the opposite of what you imply.

All shariah is traditionally subject to a process called ijtihad which DEMANDS one questions everything; Qur'an, hadith, the local Imam, even God as Ahmedinejad stated.

In fact ijtihad is the main reason why Islamic civilization and science was so progressive.

Perhaps Ahmedinejad does not subscribe to ijtihad, more than likely not (although from his speech he would seem to), but all that means is that his theology - like most other Islamic States - is in error. Certainly ijtihad is alive and well in Shi'ism and is a growing counter-movement which (imo) will in time defeat extremism.

Project Ijtihad (http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ijtihad.html)

[SpamSandwich]

I do not know what Ahmedinejad's stance is on questioning these things but the original Islamic one as derived from the Qur'an is the opposite of what you imply.

All shariah is traditionally subject to a process called ijtihad which DEMANDS one questions everything; Qur'an, hadith, the local Imam, even God as Ahmedinejad stated.

In fact ijtihad is the main reason why Islamic civilization and science was so progressive.

Perhaps Ahmedinejad does not subscribe to ijtihad, more than likely not (although from his speech he would seem to), but all that means is that his theology - like most other Islamic States - is in error. Certainly ijtihad is alive and well in Shi'ism and is a growing counter-movement which (imo) will in time defeat extremism.

Project Ijtihad (http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/ijtihad.html)

An excellent answer. I'll do further research. Thanks. Ijtihad sounds like something that would benefit Christians as well as Muslims.