Myanamar

[southside grabowski]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/10/02/rivers.myanamar.beatings.cnn

We must all fight against government control and the suppression of freedom. Today's freedom does not guarantee tomorrow’s. Once you have surrendered your freedom. It is hard to get it back.


These images from Burma remind me of the demonstrations in China in 1989. This brings back a lot of memories.

[@_@ Artman]

I posted this elsewhere, but it seems appropriate here...

Press Briefing by Dana Perino James S. Brady Briefing Room (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/10/20071001-2.html)

I'll take your questions...

Q And the protests, themselves, seem to have been stilled. What do you make of that?

MS. PERINO: Well, unfortunately, intimidation and force can chill peaceful demonstrations. And reports about very innocent people being thrown into detention, where they could be held for years without any representation or charges, is distressing; and we understand that some of the monasteries have been sealed. Now, obviously, this has, again, a chilling effect on protesters, but we would ask that everyone show restraint and allow those who want to express themselves to be able to do so in Burma.

...of course, many would argue this administration did the same thing, except not so blatantly.

This is the ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros) catching its neck. This is the monster of culture recycling itself at such an accelerating pace that it has caught up and is devouring its own feet as they rise from each step.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Ouroboros.png

All par for the course...Statements like these are likely purposefully ironic, and serve to reinforce the crimes of the neo-conservatives the White House as being necessary. In other words, "look, we issued a statement about how unlawful detention is wrong, so the detention that we do must be legal."

In other news, seems the Junta has been backed against the wall (either by China or just from the overall World exposure this has gotten) and have started to release 229 monks, nuns and other protesters (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBKK2560520071003?rpc=92). But look at this...

In the first sinister glimpses inside the detention machine, a relative of three released women said those being interrogated were divided into four categories: Passers-by, Those who watched, Those who clapped and Those who joined in.

So, they are still figuring out how to deal with the passerbys who were initially just watching, but later joined in clapping?

[Fellowship]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2007/10/02/rivers.myanamar.beatings.cnn

We must all fight against government control and the suppression of freedom. Today's freedom does not guarantee tomorrow’s. Once you have surrendered your freedom. It is hard to get it back.


These images from Burma remind me of the demonstrations in China in 1989. This brings back a lot of memories.

I agree 100%

Fellowship

[Outsider]

Is there oil there?

[Jubelum]

*coughdisarmedpopulacecough*

[Jubelum]

Is there oil there?

:lol: Smart.

[@_@ Artman]

Is there oil there?

Sigh...:\

I have heard this from everyone without a clue (you may be joking tho')...

Still (http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Business/2007/9/29/firms_seek_access_to_myanmar_oil_fields.html):

Just last Sunday _ when marches led by Buddhist monks drew thousands in Myanmar's biggest cities _ Indian Oil Minister Murli Deora was in the country's capital for the signing of oil and gas exploration contracts between state-controlled ONGC Videsh Ltd. and Myanmar's military rulers.

The signing ceremony was an example of how important Myanmar's oil and gas resources have become in an energy-hungry world. Even as Myanmar's military junta intensifies its crackdown on pro-democracy protests, oil companies are jostling for access to the country's largely untapped natural gas and oil fields that activists say are funding a repressive regime.

China _ Myanmar's staunchest diplomatic protector and largest trading partner _ is particularly keen on investing in the country because of its strategic location for pipelines to feed the Chinese economy's growing thirst for oil and gas.

Companies from South Korea, Thailand and elsewhere also are looking to exploit the energy resources of the desperately poor Southeast Asian country.

France's Total SA and Malaysia's Petroliam Nasional Bhd., or Petronas, currently pump gas from fields off Myanmar's coast through a pipeline to Thailand, which takes 90 percent of Myanmar's gas output, according to Thailand's PTT Exploration & Production PLC. [1]

But investing in Myanmar has brought accusations that petroleum corporations offer economic support to the country's repressive junta, and in some cases are complicit in human rights abuses. This week's bloody clampdowns on protests have escalated the activists' calls for energy companies to pull out of the country.

"They are funding the dictatorship," said Marco Simons, U.S. legal director at EarthRights International, an environmental and human rights group with offices in Thailand and Washington. "The oil and gas companies have been one of the major industries keeping the regime in power."

[1] Gas reserves were 19 trillion cubic feet at the end of 2006...:\

Also: If you have Chevron stock - sell it. If you buy Chevron products stop buying them. Because Chevron’s Pipeline Is the Burmese Regime’s Lifeline (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071002_chevrons_pipeline_is_the_burmese_regimes_ lifeline/).

[southside grabowski]

*coughdisarmedpopulacecough*

Indeed. The people have no weapons.

[segovius]

Indeed. The people have no weapons.

Yeah, I hear those Buddhist Monks are really bitching about that.

And who can blame them...look what happened to that loser Ghandi when he protested without first having the sense to get tooled up and backed by a militia.....

Still look on the bright side - the US is committed to regime change for fascist dictatorships so the place will be awash with weapons for the populace after the invasion.....oh wait, the junta aren't Muslims...oh well...guess they get to carry on.....

[Jubelum]

Yeah, I hear those Buddhist Monks are really bitching about that.


Yea, I hear that it's ONLY Buddhist Monks that are not happy being oppressed.

Hey sego... please give us your take on the Myanamar situation... I'm interested.

[shetline]

If only we can find a way for Halliburton and Blackwater to get some lucrative no-bid contracts out of the deal, we can get to work freeing the people of Myanmar from oppression so they can enjoy some lovely civil war, economic collapse, and general chaos.

[Jubelum]

If only we can find a way for Halliburton and Blackwater to get some lucrative no-bid contracts out of the deal, we can get to work freeing the people of Myanmar from oppression so they can enjoy some lovely civil war, economic collapse, and general chaos.

Wow... screener 2.0.

Please, for the love of Pete, someone here tell me specifically what other groups (other than Halliburton and BWUSA) do the range of services that these two do. Should we spilt up these jobs (if other companies can be found to do some of them), spending billions extra, just to make you happy?

"lucrative no-bid" <the whole PeeWee's Playhouse screams together>

[sammi jo]

Please, for the love of Pete, someone here tell me specifically what other groups (other than Halliburton and BWUSA) do the range of services that these two do.


There's plenty of organizations out there that get paid to kill people arbitrarily. How about al Qaeda, for starters?

[segovius]

Yea, I hear that it's ONLY Buddhist Monks that are not happy being oppressed.

Hey sego... please give us your take on the Myanamar situation... I'm interested.

I don't have one - I never comment on things I know nothing about, you know that ;)

It's good advice btw...

[Jubelum]

I don't have one

Sorry, just thought that you were our resident expert on Asian affairs. You seem to understand quite well the issues in SW Asia, the groups at play, and tactics and goals.

My bad on Myanamar.

[Jubelum]

There's plenty of organizations out there that get paid to kill people arbitrarily. How about al Qaeda, for starters?

<911truther snark> well, we already hired al-Q once and it worked out... maybe again</911 truther snark>

Naaahhhh... REALLY.... who else should be bidding on these contracts?

[@_@ Artman]

Ok. My 2 cents.

Yea, I hear that it's ONLY Buddhist Monks that are not happy being oppressed.

Jubelum, it's not like your world where you can go down to Bud's Gun Shop (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/) or buy a Vector Arms UZI Carbine (http://www.eastcoastfirearms.com/) on sale. This is a military regime, they have the guns, not the people.

<sarcasm>Oh yeah, those Buddhist monks will do anything to get attention...

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/pacificaviet/monk.jpg

</sarcasm>

[shetline]

Naaahhhh... REALLY.... who else should be bidding on these contracts?
My point wasn't about who should and shouldn't be bidding on the contracts (I don't think anyone but real, official military personnel should be doing what Blackwater is doing -- maybe we wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place if we didn't have the option to fill out the ranks with hired thugs), but that we're a whole lot more likely to get involved when there's a profit motive for someone in power.

[@_@ Artman]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/oh_no_not_this_shit.jpg

[Jubelum]

Jubelum, it's not like your world where you can go down to Bud's Gun Shop (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/) or buy a Vector Arms UZI Carbine (http://www.eastcoastfirearms.com/) on sale. This is a military regime, they have the guns, not the people.

That's exactly my point. Absent means to affect violent change, there are cases when the government will refuse to be subject to its people. Myanamar is the kind of thing that becomes possible when the government has nothing to fear from the people. As an aside, most of the cause célèbre civil wars in Africa (Rwanda, Darfur) also have the element of one group disarming, then killing, another.

The governments will always have guns. Governments that do not trust their people, or are intent on harming their people, do not let that right loose among the populace.

[iPoster]

*coughdisarmedpopulacecough*

What do you think will happen?

What usually happens when people without guns stand up to people *with* guns.

[Jubelum]

My point wasn't about who should and shouldn't be bidding on the contracts (I don't think anyone but real, official military personnel should be doing what Blackwater is doing -- maybe we wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place if we didn't have the option to fill out the ranks with hired thugs), but that we're a whole lot more likely to get involved when there's a profit motive for someone in power.

With all due respect shetline, I'd have to say that any time we roll tanks, someone is getting paid outside of the government. Be that an arms factory, PMCs, the World Bank... someone, a lot of people, get a LOT of money when governments go to war. Those people are both in and outside of power. Wealthy people, who end up in office, usually have investments which profit from the decisions they make. Right or wrong (mostly wrong) it's been that way since Eisenhower gave the speech. As far as I am concerned, the whole lot of them in DC, from both sides of the isle, have profited both economically and politically from the Iraq situation. Some more than others.

Though I agree somewhat with having the military do things first, the reality is that US troops are trained for military missions, and doing security details for a myriad of Iraq's who's-who is not what they are best suited for. I'd much prefer to have the US military fighting insurgents, taking territory, and doing classic military work, rather than being bodyguards. Just like I had a problem with the US Military being "meals-on-wheels" in Somalia's civil war. Blackwater is better at that bodyguard stuff anyway, as many of them are formerly employees of the DSS.

[@_@ Artman]

Burma’s monks start to fight back (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8973)

Some who have escaped are enlisting in armed resistance groups, writes edward loxton

Many monks who escaped arrest in the junta's crackdown on mass demonstrations in Rangoon and Mandalay are returning to villages in ethnic areas and joining armed resistance groups.

A Shan monk who escaped across the mountainous border into Thailand told a Thai TV reporter he intended leaving his order and enlisting in the Shan State Army-South, which is fighting the army in eastern Burma.

While I can hardly blame them, this report details monks who are quintessentially not Buddhist.

As in medicine, law #1 for Buddhists is "Do no harm". No matter what end you hope to achieve, causing harm in the process of achieving that goal results in distancing the soul from Dharma (inner peace/perfection).

Violence among Buddhist monks is hardly rare though, in Tibet many thousands did take up arms in protest to inhumane treatment by the invading Chinese army.

Another incident involved a day-long riot involving tens of thousands of monks from different sects vying to elect their candidate to an office of high responsibility.

Buddhists aren't perfect, they make the same dumb mistakes everyone else does. But things must be very desperate indeed for the monks to break their vows and their beliefs as they take up arms.

[Jubelum]

What usually happens when people without guns stand up to people *with* guns.

I think that people without private guns are screwed. That's the sum total of what I am getting at here. It takes a LOT of bloodshed, with little hope of success, when a disarmed populace tries to overthrow an armed government. Those paying attention should think about how this *could* have been different... since the government does not respect the people, the people need the means to replace that government with one that does. Absent a means of resistance, you got yourself a situation like this...

Myanamar is just the latest in a grand World Tour- the USSR, China, Cambodia, a bunch of other great performances in just the last century alone. Disarm, oppress/kill, rule.

[Jubelum]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/oh_no_not_this_shit.jpg

:lol: OK, OK... Uncle! Uncle!

[segovius]

I think that people without private guns are screwed. That's the sum total of what I am getting at here. It takes a LOT of bloodshed, with little hope of success, when a disarmed populace tries to overthrow an armed government.

Actually I would argue that most - if not all - cases of successful overthrow of oppressive regimes has come through unarmed populace where the populace is actually leading a revolution or movement for change.

I would cite the following:

India
South Africa
The "Velvet Revolution' in Czechoslovakia
Fall of East Germany
Overthrow of Governments in 1989 of Hungary, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria
Albania

And that's just for starters.

Even in your own beloved US the fact of an armed populace has done absolutely nothing to advance freedom and the major steps forward in freedom there have again come through unarmed resistance as in the case of MLK and the Civil Rights movement.

So...looks like you are not making any sense (again)...

[Jubelum]

And that's just for starters.

Even in your own beloved US the fact of an armed populace has done absolutely nothing to advance freedom and the major steps forward in freedom there have again come through unarmed resistance as in the case of MLK and the Civil Rights movement.


Note also that the Black Panthers DID have guns. There was a means of resistance and personal protection from the Klan. The very first gun controls laws (http://www.lizmichael.com/tahmasse.htm) in this country, BTW, were laws meant to prevent slaves, and later freed slaves, from owning guns. I wonder why that is?

-Mississippi's Black Code included the following provision:

Be it enacted . . . [t]hat no freedman, free Negro or mulatto, not in the military . . . and not licensed so to do by the board of police of his or her county, shall keep or carry firearms of any kind, or any ammunition, . . . and all such arms or ammunition shall be forfeited to the informer . . . ."[14]

As far as "advancing freedom", I am talking about preventing despots and tyrants from gaining such an incredible power imbalance over their own people. You cite examples of governments relenting of their own accord- what happens when governments will not do so?

What do you say to the fact that disarmament is often followed by genocide? I just took a friend to the range last weekend who is from Kosovo. The non-Serb Kosovo. His first-person experiences could have been much different had his bother (kiled by Serbs) and sister (raped then beaten by Serbs) had some means of resistance. They did not.

Looks like you are missing the point (again) ;)

[segovius]

I am talking about maintaining, not advancing, or rather, preventing despots and tyrants from gaining such an incredible power imbalance over their own people.

You cite examples of governments relenting of their own accord- what happens when governments will not do so?

All those governments yielded to increased pressure when the public opposition reached critical mass.

If that happens a government will fall. It is inevitable. It just takes time.

In Burma's case I don't think that critical mass is there yet but if and when it comes then the government will fall - in fact, an armed conflict between the two sides would most likely insure the government continues.

[screener]

Wow... screener 2.0.

Please, for the love of Pete, someone here tell me specifically what other groups (other than Halliburton and BWUSA) do the range of services that these two do. Should we spilt up these jobs (if other companies can be found to do some of them), spending billions extra, just to make you happy?

"lucrative no-bid" <the whole PeeWee's Playhouse screams together>

Seeing as you left our discussion in the Blackwater thread,

Blackwater grew because of the Iraq war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA

History

Blackwater USA was formed in 1997 to provide training support to military and law enforcement organizations. In 2002 Blackwater Security Consulting (BSC) was formed. It was one of several private security firms employed following the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. BSC is one of over 60 private security firms employed during the Iraq War to guard officials and installations, train Iraq's new army and police, and provide other support for occupation forces.[18] Blackwater was also hired during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina by the Department of Homeland Security, as well as by private clients, including communications, petrochemical and insurance companies.[19] In each case, Blackwater received a no-bid contract. Overall, the company has received over one billion dollars in government contracts.[20


From training to recruiting mercenaries and growing due to the incompetence? and no bid contracts thanks to the the Bush administration.

Haliburton, thats another thing, read if you want, to wet your appetite,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton

Following the end of the Gulf War, the Pentagon, led by then Defense Secretary Dick Cheney, paid Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root Services over $8.5 million to study the use of private military forces with American soldiers in combat zones.[8]

[AsLan^]

Seeing as you left our discussion in the Blackwater thread,


This really does belong in the Blackwater thread.

You know when you add a new post to a thread it gets bumped to the top and everyone can read it in context.

It also seems quite tasteless to interrupt a thread about human rights abuse that is going on right now to try and score some points for this agenda of yours (which to be quite honest is not particularly clear, perhaps you could restate it in the Blackwater thread).

[Jubelum]

Seeing as you left our discussion in the Blackwater thread,

Go post there... this is not the place. If I feel compelled (and I am losing interest in going around the merry-go-round witcha one... more... time) then I will be troubled for a post there. But not until then. ;) Chasing me around the board over posting/not posting in a thread is straight from the Salem Playbook.

This a Burmese thread. I had Thai for dinner- who can fight with such great cuisine?

[tonton]

*coughdisarmedpopulacecough*

Fuck you. Seriously. You stated, quite categorically on these boards, that the reason Americans can't give up our guns now is because the guns are already out there, and for the "innocent" people to give up our guns would leave an "unarmed populace" against an armed criminal element.

Now there's a place where there are no guns in the general population, but now you want to give them guns?

Intellectual dishonesty, anyone?

The fact is, you just want everyone to have the right to a gun, no matter what the circumstances.

Arming Burmese monks is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I've heard on these boards ever, and believe me I've heard plenty.

[tonton]

Fuck. I still can't get over the idea that some asshole turned a thread about a government's brutal oppresion of a country's people into "we need guns". Talk about missing the whole fucking point. Talk about one-track mindedness.

Yes, I totally expect that the US will get involved in this militarily. No oil... but plenty of gemstones. Wanna bet the "liberators" will want to get their hands in that jewel box?

[giant]

There are and have been more than enough conflicts and repressive regimes in places with widespread gun ownership to demonstrate more than thoroughly that it's not the crux of the issue.

[Jubelum]

Fuck you. Seriously. You stated, quite categorically on these boards, that the reason Americans can't give up our guns now is because the guns are already out there, and for the "innocent" people to give up our guns would leave an "unarmed populace" against an armed criminal element.

Now there's a place where there are no guns in the general population, but now you want to give them guns?

Intellectual dishonesty, anyone?

The fact is, you just want everyone to have the right to a gun, no matter what the circumstances.

Arming Burmese monks is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I've heard on these boards ever, and believe me I've heard plenty.

tonton, you are warming my heart. Yea- fuck me... seriously. :D

First, you have remembered and understood my long-ago recited position on guns in America. I'm glad it stuck with you.

Second, I did not say that I want to give them guns, rather I pointed out (quite plainly, I might add) that this is the POTENTIAL when the populace is disarmed.

Ya see, good people can do neither (a) defend themselves against tyranny or (b) defend themselves against criminals when they are prohibited from owning the means to their own defense. Ya see, it's simple. Seriously. And regardless of whatever ideological masturbations that emerge in your protestations, (a) and (b) will hold true in 98% of cases.

And nowhere will you find me supporting "everyone" having a gun. Criminals, the insane, and liberals (just kidding) should not have guns. (Rich, gun-grabbing liberals in gated communities can pay bodyguards for protection) Nowhere will you see from me "no matter what the circumstances." Tsk. Tsk. Angry "fuck you" posting leads to such mistakes.

And as far as the monks, take a minute, have a cool, relaxing beverage, and go back earlier in the thread and read where I stated that there are more than monks who are upset and/or oppressed. See?

Good. :smokey:

[Jubelum]

There are and have been more than enough conflicts and repressive regimes in places with widespread gun ownership to demonstrate more than thoroughly that it's not the crux of the issue.

I agree... it is not the crux of the issue. It's about a government being held to account for the treatment of the citizenry. How shall we go about that with a military junta?

[Jubelum]

Fuck. I still can't get over the idea that some asshole turned a thread about a government's brutal oppresion of a country's people into "we need guns". Talk about missing the whole fucking point. Talk about one-track mindedness.

Yes, I totally expect that the US will get involved in this militarily. No oil... but plenty of gemstones. Wanna bet the "liberators" will want to get their hands in that jewel box?

Wow, cowboy... this is really a burr in your saddle, eh?

I'll consider being "some asshole" coming from you to be an absolute compliment. As if your previous "fuck you" was not sufficient. Ahhh, I can feeeel the love.

This is not a single-minded or one-track discussion at all. Please, let's get away from the gun issue. Let's talk about how change can best be affected in the nation of Myanamar.

[giant]

I agree...
Doubtful. All you've managed to post here are arguments that widespread guns in the country would make a positive difference, despite the fact that it often doesn't in these kinds of situations and, in fact, frequently contributes to prolonged conflicts and political unrest.

[Jubelum]

Doubtful. All you've managed to post here are arguments that widespread guns in the country would make a positive difference, despite the fact that it typically doesn't in these kinds of situations.

Well, I'll whisper this to you so as not to make tonton mad... I think that the kind of oppression that we are seeing now may not have been tried in a nation with private ownership. How do things get this bad? When there is no limit to what the population must accept and the government knows it. Much like it is with personal defense in the United States- you simply do not know how much doesn't happen because of the possibility that the good people might resist.

Now, back to our thread about how we fix Myanamar. Pretty Please.

Now...
How shall we go about that with a military junta?

Shall we bring in the UN? Bilateral talks? Pressure from trading partners? Anyone?

[giant]

I think that the kind of oppression that we are seeing now would not have been tried in a nation with private ownership..
So you believe that there aren't military governments, oppressive governments, undemocratic governments or long-term political conflicts in places with lots of guns?
Now, back to our thread about how we fix Myanamar. Please.
Back to what exactly? You've spent the whole thread talking about this.

[Jubelum]

Back to what exactly? You've spent the whole thread talking about this.

Post 4- Outsider asks about oil.
Post 10- I tried to get sego's ideas on Myanmar
Post 11- Shetline goes "Halliburton/Blackwater"
Post 13- sammi jo goes to the mat with Al Qaeda
Post 29- screener pops in for some more Blackwater
Post 31- first Jubelum attempt to get back OT.

I have asked four times for a discussion to be returned to Myanmar's situation. Please? (Now five)

What ideas do you have for resolving the situation?

Shall we bring in the UN? Bilateral talks? Pressure from trading partners? Anyone?

[Jubelum]

The Chinese Ambassador says the problem is "basically internal (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/10/04/myanmar/index.html)."

China's Ambassador to the United Nations Wang Guangya said he thought a briefing behind closed doors would allow for a more frank exchange between Gambari and council members. "My preference is that we should not have a format which might make Ambassador Gambari feel uncomfortable," he said.

Wang also reiterated China's opposition to U.N. sanctions against Myanmar.

"It's a problem," he said. "It's a crisis, but this does not constitute a threat in the (U.N.) charter definition to the region and to international peace and security.

"These problems, we believe, are basically internal. A solution for the Myanmar situation has to be found by the Myanmars themselves," Wang said.

Well, heck, the Chinese say it's basically a law-enforcement issue. I love it when the Chinese make statements regarding anything having to do with human rights.

Also good to hear that the government is "exercising restraint."

edit: I think this also brings up some interesting issues regarding sovereignty and the UN. Should the UN act within a country's affairs that do not go outside its borders, even if the government is being really really mean to their citizens?

[giant]

The Chinese Ambassador
Oh, too bad. You had to edit out your dig at the UN once read the article and realized it was just the chinese ambassdor. Which blahg deceived you?
Post 4...
Hmmm. Maybe the DB is screwed up since I see a bunch of posts about guns with your name on them leading to the bottom of the first page.
I have asked four times for a discussion to be returned to Myanmar's situation. Please?
No. But if you are counting things like trying "to get sego's ideas on Myanmar" (in a post where you discussed the gun thing), then you did that before you said anything about Burma other than that they need more guns.

[Jubelum]

Oh, too bad. You had to edit out your dig at the UN once read the article. Which blahg deceived you?

Oh, what the giant mind assumes. It's on the CNN ticker from 20 minutes ago- the "blahgs" have not picked it up yet. :D

So what does my utter dislike for the UN have to do with you posting something insightful regarding what you think should be done in Myanamar?

If you want to continue this Silly String, please do it via PM.

If you want to talk OT, I'm all ears.

[giant]

Oh, what the giant mind assumes. It's on the CNN ticker from 20 minutes ago- the "blahgs" have not picked it up yet. :D
You posted that it was the UN itself and then had to edit it, which means you didn't read the article since the quote is near the end. I assume you can read (or, at least, have Bubbles or Victoria read it to you), so the only option is that you didn't and yet decided to post anyway.
you posting something insightful regarding what you think should be done in Myanamar?
Oh, I get it. You have a series of posts about how more guns supposedly prevent military governments, oppressive governments, undemocratic governments and/or long-term political conflicts and everyone else is off topic for responding to that.

[Jubelum]

the quote is near the end.

It's right in the middle... and it does not matter anyway. What does my typo have to do with this thread topic?

Oh, I get it. You have a series of posts about how more guns supposedly prevent military governments, oppressive governments, undemocratic governments and/or long-term political conflicts and everyone else is off topic for responding to that.

You're killin' me here... I respond to tonton's voluminous and profane lamentations by getting "back on topic." I even agreed with you that it is not the crux of the situation. As usual, you've got my position twisted and technically incorrect.

Now, is this a thread about me, or the goings on in Myanamar? I mean, I love your undivided attention, but there is more that we can all gain from a real discussion concerning the thread topic.

Do YOU want to make this thread about guns, because I can delightfully talk about that all day. We went 10 pages last time. In deference to the OP's intent, I'd prefer to converse on Myanamar.

[giant]

You know, Jube, just glancing through your posts again before I sign off, for someone who claims you want to talk about the specific issues of Burma, your posts sure are focused on other issues (namely guns). You seem to be asking for information on Burma-specific issues a whole lot more than offering ideas of your own on the subject. Perhaps people would be more interested in teaching you about Burma and what is going on there if you didn't spend post after post talking about other stuff and getting ultra-defensive when your little "more guns" theory gets challenged.
Now, is this a thread about me, or the goings on in Myanamar?
That's actually a really good question. Maybe when your statements are challenged you should try backing them up with some sort of quantifiable facts related to the situation at hand so there would be something to discuss. When you make a series of illogical arguments, particularly when you keep talking about your political stances instead of the particulars of, in this case, Burma, the conversation naturally drifts toward being about your stances, which has happened now multiple times in this thread.

[Jubelum]

You know, Jube, just glancing through your posts again before I sign off, for someone who claims you want to talk about the specific issues of Burma, your posts sure are focused on other issues (namely guns). You seem to be asking for information on Burma-specific issues a whole lot more than offering ideas of your own on the subject. Perhaps people would be more interested in teaching you about Burma if you didn't spend post after post talking about other stuff and getting ultra-defensive when your little "more guns" theory gets challenged.

I don't need to get "ultra defensive" - look at the Guns in America thread. It's my issue.

I'm trying to do penance for bringing up such a sensitive topic... please father, help me. How do I get thee to want to discuss Myanamar?

And huge props for the assumption that I need to be "taught" on Burma, and missing the last wad of posts pleading for a real discussion. I have my ideas... that's what we do here... sometimes we ask around and see what the CW is and get into mutually beneficial discussions that way. It's neat when it happens.

[Jubelum]

That's actually a really good question.

Illogical to you. That's fine with me. No use trying to reason with you there, IMHO.

What I keep trying desperately to get someone here to answer is: HOW do you deal with a military government that oppresses its people? How should the people resist? What is the best way to handle this? How do we prevent this in the first place?

I have posted tangible facts regarding the Black Codes, other nations where disarmed civilians become victims of genocide and oppression, and also my views on how this *might* have been avoided. I have stated nowhere that guns are the only answer, quite the contrary, I've been asking you to chime in with what should be done, because obviously we're not flying planeloads of arms in there Iran-Contra style.

[segovius]

Illogical to you. That's fine with me. No use trying to reason with you there, IMHO.

What I keep trying desperately to get someone here to answer is: HOW do you deal with a military government that oppresses its people? How should the people resist? What is the best way to handle this? How do we prevent this in the first place?

I have posted tangible facts regarding the Black Codes, other nations where disarmed civilians become victims of genocide and oppression, and also my views on how this *might* have been avoided. I have stated nowhere that guns are the only answer, quite the contrary, I've been asking you to chime in with what should be done, because obviously we're not flying planeloads of arms in there Iran-Contra style.

It should not have to come down to the citizens. When it does it is always a last resort and a sign that the country in question has been abandoned by the international community. I mean the US and it's lackeys.

The reasons for this abandonment are practically always the same; rank hypocrisy, shameless profiteering, myopic self-interest and greed.

Whenever you see the citizens having to 'go it alone', you can bet the US and the toadies have been propping up the oppressors, resisting calls for change at the diplomatic level, engaging in dubious and illegal interactions with the oppressors and generally riding roughshod over the people in the rush to line their own pockets and profit from the misery they themselves have helped to continue.

[screener]

Go post there... this is not the place. If I feel compelled (and I am losing interest in going around the merry-go-round witcha one... more... time) then I will be troubled for a post there. But not until then. ;) Chasing me around the board over posting/not posting in a thread is straight from the Salem Playbook.

This a Burmese thread. I had Thai for dinner- who can fight with such great cuisine?

You mentioned screener, what else am I to think except you wanted a response, I gave one.

This thread seems to have turned into, all about you anyway.

[@_@ Artman]

What I keep trying desperately to get someone here to answer is: HOW do you deal with a military government that oppresses its people? How should the people resist? What is the best way to handle this? How do we prevent this in the first place?

http://www.worstpreviews.com/images/rambo4.gif (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-982843035689363222&q=Rambo+4&total=403&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9)

click the pic...i dare ya...:smokey:

[screener]

Oh, what the giant mind assumes. It's on the CNN ticker from 20 minutes ago- the "blahgs" have not picked it up yet. :D

Getting your info from the MSM?

[southside grabowski]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jubelum]

It should not have to come down to the citizens. When it does it is always a last resort and a sign that the country in question has been abandoned by the international community. I mean the US and it's lackeys.

The reasons for this abandonment are practically always the same; rank hypocrisy, shameless profiteering, myopic self-interest and greed.

Whenever you see the citizens having to 'go it alone', you can bet the US and the toadies have been propping up the oppressors, resisting calls for change at the diplomatic level, engaging in dubious and illegal interactions with the oppressors and generally riding roughshod over the people in the rush to line their own pockets and profit from the misery they themselves have helped to continue.

Ah... content... refreshing as a Mint Julep in a hot Mississippi summer.

I'm interested in how a Chinese-backed government oppressing its people is the fault of the US. I need a solid reason or two so that I can blame this on the US as well. Imperialist Pigs. :no:

[segovius]

Ah... content... refreshing as a Mint Julep in a hot Mississippi summer.

I'm interested in how a Chinese-backed government oppressing its people is the fault of the US. I need a solid reason or two so that I can blame this on the US as well. Imperialist Pigs. :no:

Can you say Haliburton? I knew you could.... (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/100500-01.htm)

the Republican Party's vice presidential nominee was involved in a company that assisted in energy projects in Burma associated with violent human rights abuses.

Until he was selected as vice presidential candidate for the Republican ticket, Dick Cheney headed the energy giant Halliburton.

[Haliburton] owned a subsidiary which helped construct two pipelines that involved the forcible relocation of villages, forced labour, rape and murder.

''Halliburton partners and subsidiaries, both before and during Dick Cheney's tenure as CEO, have been contractors for pipeline projects that have led to crimes against humanity in Burma,'' says Katie Redford, a human rights lawyer with EarthRights.

ooh, look.... (http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2007/09/burma-accuses-cia-of-involvement-in-knu.html)...looks like CIA goons have been running around assassinating people too.....

And on.....

[@_@ Artman]

Ah... content... refreshing as a Mint Julep in a hot Mississippi summer.

I'm interested in how a Chinese-backed government oppressing its people is the fault of the US. I need a solid reason or two so that I can blame this on the US as well. Imperialist Pigs. :no:

'Human Rights' Not Part of Chevron 'Human Energy' Advertising Campaign (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-01-2007/0004673735&EDATE=)

The Foundation
for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights and its OilWatchdog.org project today
called on Chevron CEO David O'Reilly to "immediately sever Chevron's ties
to Myanmar's brutal government and personally speak out against its violent
suppression of peaceful protest."
In a letter to O'Reilly, OilWatchdog cofounder Judy Dugan said, "Your
ad campaign, which a Chevron official said would cost 'in the high tens of
millions' of dollars, portrays a company that deeply cares about the world
and its future. Given your investment in Myanmar alone, that is a gauzy,
gorgeous lie."
Chevron has a stake in natural gas fields in Myanmar through its 2005
purchase of Unocal. Unocal's 28% ownership of natural gas fields with the
French oil company Total was, along with other existing investments,
excluded from an embargo by the United States and European nations.
"It is surprising that the 2005 change of ownership did not trigger
demands for disinvestment by the embargo partners," said Dugan. "Chevron
should divest now as a moral imperative."

"Dear Mr. O'Reilly,
"Chevron's lavish new image-advertising campaign makes your 65,000
employees look like the Peace Corps, sowing harmony and good feeling across
the world. Yet as you well know, the smiling families, poets and sports
coaches shown in your 2.5-minute debut television ad, 'Human Energy,' don't
make corporate policy.
"Chevron's continued lucrative investment in the natural gas fields of
Myanmar fuels a despotic regime that has focused its 'human energy' on
violently suppressing its citizens -- including the murder of Buddhist
monks and the apparent point-blank killing of a Japanese news photographer.
"You could have divested the Myanmar fields when Chevron bought their
operator, Unocal, in 2005. Chevron said last year that it was considering
such action, but failed to take it.
"You and your corporation have been silent as Myanmar troops fired on
democracy proponents, beat them and incarcerated them. You have been silent
about the continued imprisonment and intimidation of Aung San Suu Kyi,
whose overwhelming 1990 election to lead the nation was overturned by
force.
"Your ad campaign, which a Chevron official said would cost 'in the
high tens of millions' of dollars, portrays a company that deeply cares
about the world and its future. Given your investment in Myanmar alone,
that is a gauzy, gorgeous lie.
"We urge you to immediately sever Chevron's ties to Myanmar's brutal
government and personally speak out against its violent suppression of
peaceful protest."

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/chevronbakerca1.jpg

[Jubelum]

And on.....

Sego... you sly one... you DID have content and knowledge up your sleeve re: Burma. ;)

Someone needs to call an elected person at the DNC and tell them about all this.
Get that investigation moving!

[Jubelum]

'Human Rights' Not Part of Chevron 'Human Energy' Advertising Campaign (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-01-2007/0004673735&EDATE=)


You have a very cogent point there... petroleum industry types have a dismal record of being consistent activists for anything but their shareholder's profits. That's their primary job. And considering who lives on top of these reserves that the world wants, it creates very bad situations for human rights. I just wonder how many of the native people of Chiapas and the Yucatan would be dying of starvation if they received just a dollar per barrel from PeMex drilling on their lands.

I was amazed a few years back when I read about the tactics of Shell in Nigera, IIRC.

[southside grabowski]

Can you say Haliburton? I knew you could.... (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/100500-01.htm)



ooh, look.... (http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2007/09/burma-accuses-cia-of-involvement-in-knu.html)...looks like CIA goons have been running around assassinating people too.....

And on.....



It gets worse……. Now it seems that the brutal regime has been torture- trained by the fascist American government. Secret photos are said to show imprisoned monks wearing panties on their heads. Oh! this bleeds the marks of the Halliburton-doped Bushinistas.

[Jubelum]

Halliburton-doped Bushinistas.

:lol:

[screener]

:lol:

Interested in knowing why the Chilean Sera Bass reference is missing?

Feel bad about continuing a lie that those less informed believe?

[Jubelum]

Interested in knowing why the Chilean Sera Bass reference is missing?

Feel bad about continuing a lie that those less informed believe?


Change is good, right, Mr. Progressive?

Do you want to go on another wild goose chase over your version of "truth?"

A signature, as much as you seem to care about mine, does not matter. Please return us to our regularly scheduled "Fucking Americans" diatribes.

[screener]

Change is good, right, Mr. Progressive?

Do you want to go on another wild goose chase over your version of "truth?"

A signature, as much as you seem to care about mine, does not matter. Please return us to our regularly scheduled "Fucking Americans" diatribes.

My wild "Goose Chase" seems to have realized your version of the truth isn't.

Hence the removal of the Sea Bass Signature.

I rest my case.

You see Aslan, one Canadian can make a difference.

[Jubelum]

My wild "Goose Chase" seems to have realized your version of the truth isn't.

Hence the removal of the Sea Bass Signature.

I rest my case.

You see Aslan, one Canadian can make a difference.

There you go... you really "proved" something. :lol: I love 4th grade one-upsmanship.
Next I bet you are going to put gum in my hair. Or give me a wedgie. Or tattle on me.

[AsLan^]

My wild "Goose Chase" seems to have realized your version of the truth isn't.

Hence the removal of the Sea Bass Signature.

I rest my case.

You see Aslan, one Canadian can make a difference.

You might want to Google search his new sig...

[screener]

There you go... you really "proved" something. :lol: I love 4th grade one-upsmanship.
Next I bet you are going to put gum in my hair. Or give me a wedgie. Or tattle on me.

And now it;'s back, what an asshole you are.

Note the singular," Fucking American"

[Jubelum]

"Fucking American"

Meanie head.

[screener]

Meanie head.

Keep spreading lies by innuendo and you are no better than those that got you'all to where you are.

You're credibility is totally fucked and by returning the Sea Bass Sig., the fourth grade one-upmanship analogy just bit you in the ass.

[Jubelum]

Wow... you lecturing anyone on credibility. :lol: Whatever.

Who exactly is the "you all" you're referring to?

[screener]

Wow... you lecturing anyone on credibility. :lol: Whatever.

Who exactly is the "you all" you're referring to?

Let's see, you remove the Sea Bass Sig., then put it back after I notice, and then say I'm acting like a fourth grader.

Regarding the SDW like question, the reasons for the Iraq quagmire.

Should I elaborate or do you get the 'lies by innuendo" swaying the uninformed.

[Jubelum]

Let's see, you remove the Sea Bass Sig., then put it back after I notice, and then say I'm acting like a fourth grader.


If you think you "achieved something" by "making me" change my sig, and tell everyone on the board you are proud of yourself, I am happy to make you wrong- easily. :lol:

Um... a little more on topic...
Myanmar junta says, uh, weapons seized from Buddhist monasteries. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/10/07/myanmar.weapons2.ap/index.html)

Upwards of 1000 people being "detained."

[screener]

If you think you "achieved something" by "making me" change my sig, and tell everyone on the board you are proud of yourself, I am happy to make you wrong- easily. :lol:

Well at least you admitted you did change it, for those that missed it.
The post was in reply to Aslan as a side note to him thinking I, as a Canadian couldn't change things in the States, small as it was.

It just morphed into this by your actions after the fact.

Now, why did you put it back?

Go ahead, make me wrong.

[Jubelum]

The situation in Burma is very serious. Very much worthy of a discussion.