Bush: "We don't think it is in their interests to send troops into Iraq"

[@_@ Artman]

Turkey approves Iraq incursion (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html?boom)

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/S/H/bush_turkey.jpg

The funny thing about war is everyone wants to play and no body wants to stick around and clean up.

Just like a frat party. :no:

[iPoster]

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

If they are serious about Iraq being an independent government, we will stay out of it an let Turkey and Iraq negotiate. Of course, this won't happen, since Iraq is our vassal. :mad:

The Turks must really dislike the Kurds to propose invading their neighbor.

[segovius]

The Turks must really dislike the Kurds to propose invading their neighbor.

They have been committing genocide on them for 30 years or more so it is probably a safe bet....

[iPoster]

They have been committing genocide on them for 30 years or more so it is probably a safe bet....

Well, there is that little thing.... :rolleyes:

One thing I have never understood about the Middle Eastern culture is the general sense of getting long-term revenge for things in the past. Some of the things groups clash over compare to the USA attacking Britain tomorrow as revenge for the Revolutionary War. :???:

[segovius]

Well, there is that little thing.... :rolleyes:

One thing I have never understood about the Middle Eastern culture is the general sense of getting long-term revenge for things in the past. Some of the things groups clash over compare to the USA attacking Britain tomorrow as revenge for the Revolutionary War. :???:

I suppose it is because the basis of the mindset it rooted in tribal loyalty and also the 'view' of many Middle Eastern cultures is not centred in the now as the current western view is but is more expansive and encompasses generations.

It is similar to the view that one can sense if one reads the Old Testament. I read an interesting article once about the Judaic mindset (and the Islamic is certainly an extension of this). Basically the argument was that at the inception of monotheistic thought (ie before conceptions of 'paradise' were interpolated) the only immortality or survival after death that could be guaranteed was to have many descendants - hence God's promise to Abraham in this regard.

Essentially the argument was that people at this time saw no distinction between their descendants and themselves - ie they WERE their descendants and their descendants were them.

From this one can see how someone with such a belief would view things in terms of millennia perhaps as opposed to the here and now.

Actually I think this is the normal human way of seeing things and the western individualistic 'here and now' view is a corruption that leads to trouble but that is another story.

[Outsider]

So basically people in the ME are living 1000 years in the past. If they didn't have oil no one would give 2 shits about them and they would have killed each other many times over.

[segovius]

So basically people in the ME are living 1000 years in the past. If they didn't have oil no one would give 2 shits about them and they would have killed each other many times over.

We'll see.

Personally I take the view that they have already seen many 'civilizations' rise and fall and when this one dies off - and it is currently screaming in its death throes - along with its 'oil obsession' they will still be there.

Unless of course the current western 'civilization' kills everyone on the planet first either by nukes or by generally fucking up every resource they can plunder.

But I am more optimistic than that. We can soon wave the west goodbye and hopefully something better and more enlightened will replace it.

[iPoster]

Essentially the argument was that people at this time saw no distinction between their descendants and themselves - ie they WERE their descendants and their descendants were them.

From this one can see how someone with such a belief would view things in terms of millennia perhaps as opposed to the here and now.

Actually I think this is the normal human way of seeing things and the western individualistic 'here and now' view is a corruption that leads to trouble but that is another story.

I'm not trying to say it's an incorrect view, just different that what I am used to. There should be some way to have the long view of history, without having to resort to violence in certain relations though.

[segovius]

I'm not trying to say it's an incorrect view, just different that what I am used to. There should be some way to have the long view of history, without having to resort to violence in certain relations though.

Well, the violence is there in both cases no?

If some guy pisses someone off down the pub in Glasgow on a Friday night there is going to be some aggro. The same will happen if they meet again the next week.

It's just the same in the ME except with the 'long-view' it is a question of a much longer period of time. And they don't have pubs so you could even argue there's less violence.

Certainly I'd rather be in Teheran of a Friday night than downtown Newcastle or (God help us) Milton Keynes.

[segovius]

Back OT; what do people think the US will do?

I would say nothing. Turkey knows they cannot do anything - although perhaps they already have been given a green light if they adhere to certain constraints.

The US is playing a dangerous and stupid game here (imo). They have supported the PKK - who they call a 'terrorist' group (whether they are are not is a different matter - but the hypocrisy is the same as ever) and then cozied up to Turkey and ignored their human-rights abuses while ploughing millions into their economy; all because they need their military bases in the region for any attack on Iran.

And now both sides they have been playing against each other are going to go head to head.

This is what happens when the US tries to get cute - they just can't do it. Maybe the Brits or the French can play the double game but the US's great strength is in the straight bat; massive force overkill, kicking but and 'shock and awe'.

Everyone in the ME has wised up and whenever the US tries to pay this gambit they get shafted. It would be so much easier to just try showing some principles and integrity.

[OfficerDigby]

Well, there is that little thing.... :rolleyes:

One thing I have never understood about the Middle Eastern culture is the general sense of getting long-term revenge for things in the past. Some of the things groups clash over compare to the USA attacking Britain tomorrow as revenge for the Revolutionary War. :???:

I get your point. However, it's not the same in your example. A truer example would be if US had failed in it's bid for independence, with your belated commentary from afar wondering why some terrorists hadn't given up yet, and let sleeping dogs lie. ;-)


You are correct some things are in the past. However, some are not so long ago (see below).
It might be different relaxing/reminising within the safety of ones own country. But if that country does not exist, then perhaps memory's will persist in the various hot-spots of the
ME..

Between 1984 and 1999, the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbak?r, Van, and ??rnak, as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.[56] Human Rights Watch has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people.[57][58][59][60]
Nelson Mandela refused to accept the Ataturk Peace Award in 1992 because of the oppression of the Kurds. After the rejection, Turkish press called him An Ugly African and Terrorist Mandela[61].

[iPoster]

Oh, I know both Turkey and the PKK are guilty here. Guess I'm guilty of that deadly sin called making a generalization...

[segovius]

Looks like it's all kicking off.... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055004.stm)

[mydo]

The funny thing about war is everyone wants to play and no body wants to stick around and clean up.

Just like a frat party. :no:

That would include you right? Bush says "stay the course" and you "pull out". Or do I have it wrong:???:

[@_@ Artman]

That would include you right? Bush says "stay the course" and you "pull out". Or do I have it wrong:???:

Why take it from me? How about 12 Army captains? (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/16/soldiers-institute-a-draft-or-withdraw-from-iraq-now/)

As Army captains who served in Baghdad and beyond, we’ve seen the corruption and the sectarian division. We understand what it’s like to be stretched too thin. And we know when it’s time to get out. […]

To continue an operation of this intensity and duration, we would have to abandon our volunteer military for compulsory service. Short of that, our best option is to leave Iraq immediately. A scaled withdrawal will not prevent a civil war, and it will spend more blood and treasure on a losing proposition.

America, it has been five years. It’s time to make a choice.

Original Washington Post article by the Army captains. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/15/AR2007101500841.html)

We have to make a choice.

[mydo]

I'm just pointing out that you are critical of an action that you advocate. It may be the best choice. I'm a little conflicted honestly. These days I'm thinking that Bush and the military caused all this so they should be the ones to spill the blood to fix it. Not the Iraqis.

[JakeTheRock]

But I am more optimistic than that. We can soon wave the west goodbye and hopefully something better and more enlightened will replace it.

I hope that was ment to be less creepy/threatening/hinting of a soon-to-come doom then it sounded...

[@_@ Artman]

I'm just pointing out that you are critical of an action that you advocate. It may be the best choice. I'm a little conflicted honestly. These days I'm thinking that Bush and the military caused all this so they should be the ones to spill the blood to fix it. Not the Iraqis.

This PKK/Turkey situation will not help.

But here's my mindset right now. The Iraqi government and it's people want change and they seem to be taking their own initiatives. Boot Blackwater out (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10161929.html), declare their disdain of the permanent U.S. Military bases (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/18/iraq-to-cheney-big-fat-no-on-bases-in-iraq/) and start with getting business deals without the U.S. help (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/iraqi-electricity-deals-with-iran-china-irk-us/2007/10/18/1192300951760.html).

They may have to let this Turkish/Kurdish mess take care of itself. The U.S. won't help and the PKK have to be removed. Everything is tenuous though with the imminent U.S./Iran mess, but what do you expect? This administration has been completely inept in everything they've done so far.