Apple introduces 16GB iPhone, 32GB iPod touch models [Archive]

AppleInsider

02-05-2008, 07:45 AM

Apple on Tuesday added new models of the iPhone and iPod touch which have double the memory, doubling the amount of music, photos and videos that customers can carry with them wherever they go.

The company's iPhone now comes in a new 16GB model for $499, joining the 8GB model for $399. Meanwhile, iPod touch now comes in a 32GB model for $499, joining the 16GB model for $399 and the 8GB model for $299.

“For some users, there’s never enough memory,” said Greg Joswiak, Apple’s vice president of Worldwide iPod and iPhone Product Marketing. “Now people can enjoy even more of their music, photos and videos on the most revolutionary mobile phone and best Wi-Fi mobile device in the world.”

Both iPhone and iPod touch feature Apple’s Multi-Touch user interface and pioneering software that allows users to find and enjoy all their music, videos, photos and more with just a touch of their finger.

All iPhone and iPod touch models include the latest software enhancements announced last month including the ability to automatically find your location using the new Maps application; create Web Clips for your favorite websites; customize your home screen and watch movies from the new iTunes Movie Rentals.

Pricing & Availability

The new 16GB iPhone is available immediately for a suggested retail price of $499 (US) through the Apple Store, Apple’s retail stores and AT&T retail and online stores. The 32GB iPod touch is available worldwide immediately for a suggested retail price of $499 (US) through the Apple Store, Apple’s retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers. iTunes Movie Rentals are available in the US only.

iPhone and iPod touch require a Mac with a USB 2.0 port, Mac OS X 10.4.10 or later and iTunes 7.6; or a Windows PC with a USB 2.0 port and Windows Vista or Windows XP Home or Professional (Service Pack 2) or later and iTunes 7.6.[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=3708)

Leppo

02-05-2008, 07:49 AM

And so the wait for a Macbook Pro update/refresh continues. I'm full of sadness.

backtomac

02-05-2008, 07:53 AM

Hope for a 3g iphone before June is fading fast.

Still a nice update.

saschke

02-05-2008, 07:53 AM

indeed. yawn...

.mac

02-05-2008, 07:53 AM

no 3G :(

and no updates to mac line :((

chabig

02-05-2008, 07:55 AM

I'm very happy with these small updates. More memory is always nice to have. This was no doubt simply a matter of availability of higher density chips. 3G, on the other hand, is an entirely new hardware/software platform. That might take a while.

aiolos

02-05-2008, 07:59 AM

Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack. :(

chabig

02-05-2008, 08:00 AM

Because memory is not free?

WJHMH

02-05-2008, 08:05 AM

They really should have kept it the same price, still nice update.

Steiner

02-05-2008, 08:08 AM

Zandros

02-05-2008, 08:13 AM

How did they fast track this through FFC testing without anyone getting word out?

/Adrian

Ireland

02-05-2008, 08:15 AM

touch me

Ireland

02-05-2008, 08:16 AM

Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack. :(
You are not very observant are you?

Ireland

02-05-2008, 08:17 AM

They really should have kept it the same price, still nice update.

They did, the just added a bigger model. Wake up people!! :rolleyes:

axc51

02-05-2008, 08:22 AM

Where's my 10.5.2?

jont-uk

02-05-2008, 08:23 AM

As much as I love apple I wish they would roll out these products to all the countries at the same time.

In the UK we have no update as of today! But what do I care my iPhone is as good as new and I am not going to upgrade for at least a year!

Actually the 16gb phone is in the UK now - Applestore Glasgow has them in stock as well. As the new touch and a couple of MacBookAirs ... damn are they gorgeous in the flesh ;-)

Jon

eAi

02-05-2008, 08:24 AM

As much as I love apple I wish they would roll out these products to all the countries at the same time.

In the UK we have no update as of today! But what do I care my iPhone is as good as new and I am not going to upgrade for at least a year!

The register (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/02/05/16gb_iphone_to_launch_in_uk_today/) is reporting that they're available today in the UK...

wazup5416km

02-05-2008, 08:25 AM

$500 for 32GB? I don't think so.

I'll take an 8 GB. All I want is the internet and mail.

ThunkDifferent.com

02-05-2008, 08:25 AM

Great news, iJust bought an iphone, now Apple has given me the opportunity to go out and buy another one!

Thunk Different. (http://thunkdifferent.com) :smokey:

http://images.apple.com/iphone/home/images/2008/02/index_iphone_hero20080205.jpg

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 08:37 AM

silver99

02-05-2008, 08:40 AM

How did they fast track this through FFC testing without anyone getting word out?

/Adrian

Why would they have to go through the FFC or FCC or whatever for just a simple memory upgrade. It's not like they're creating a whole new product.

Ireland

02-05-2008, 08:41 AM

£329 (inc VAT) for the 16GB iPhone here in the UK. That's $650. Ouch!
Where (besides Engadget) did you get that price exactly?

zanshin

02-05-2008, 08:42 AM

Gotta free up $500 fast now.

Anybody want a black 80Gb 5G VidPod? Got a feeling it's gonna go unused real soon.

krispie

02-05-2008, 08:44 AM

Macworld UK is reporting Duffy doing a gig on the 15th Feb in the Regent Street store. I wonder if that corresponds with some other (more interesting) product updates?

Given that it's Duffy, any new products will presumably be bland and over-rateed.

NasserAE

02-05-2008, 08:46 AM

iextreme

02-05-2008, 08:52 AM

ShavenYak

02-05-2008, 08:56 AM

£329 (inc VAT) for the 16GB iPhone here in the UK. That's $650. Ouch!

To contrast, on O2's homepage today they're advertising the Black 8GB N95 for free.

Macworld UK is reporting Duffy doing a gig on the 15th Feb in the Regent Street store. I wonder if that corresponds with some other (more interesting) product updates?

The N95 costs about $650 (unlocked) over here in the States. No carrier subsidises them. A free N95 and a $650 iPhone is clearly a better deal than a $650 N95 and a $499 iPhone, so kwitcherbitchin.

ascii

02-05-2008, 08:59 AM

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 09:00 AM

Where (besides Engadget) did you get that price exactly?

From the Register article quoted earlier in the thread.

The N95 costs about $650 (unlocked) over here in the States. No carrier subsidises them. A free N95 and a $650 iPhone is clearly a better deal than a $650 N95 and a $499 iPhone, so kwitcherbitchin.

But I'm not in Kansas, Toto.

HyteProsector

02-05-2008, 09:04 AM

Great news, iJust bought an iphone, now Apple has given me the opportunity to go out and buy another one!

word to the wise: http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

It never hurts to do a little research before shelling out hundreds of dollars. They've had this thing on "don't buy" for quite some time.

solsun

02-05-2008, 09:05 AM

Those are much more sensible than the original sizes, good job Apple.

Remember a gigabyte isn't what it used to be. The 8GB phone was too low and the quickly discontinued 4GB one just deserved a blank stare.

I suppose it's all what you use it for... I have the 8gb and I still have about 2 gigs empty.. Not because I can't fill it up, but because I just don't watch media on my iPhone.. I use it mainly for phone, mail and Safari... Add to that about 100 of my favorite albums and about 500 photos.. That brings me under 6 gigs and I honestly can't see needing any more than that for my phone..

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 09:11 AM

Where (besides Engadget) did you get that price exactly?

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsID=20350 also has it at £329

Flounder

02-05-2008, 09:19 AM

I'm kinda surprised by this and worried what it means for the launch of the new MacBook Pros and MacBooks.

While I'm no expert on Apple launch dates, this seems sort of unlike Apple to do, usually they upgrade their iPods all at once during the autumn...

This is the same pattern they follow almost every year.

1. Macworld gives us the launch of new, redesigned, or quite significantly upgraded products.

2. People get upset that the normal speed/feature bump of an existing product that is due for an update doesn't happen.

3. The updates that didn't happen in 2 get rolled out during February and March.

In the end, this was a very minor update. The storage increased, but so did the price. It's nothing to get excited about, which is why Apple saw fit to release it on Super Tuesday, when the attention is pretty low.

MBPs might be next week, or they might not be for 6 weeks, but they'll be here by the end of March, guaranteed.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 09:39 AM

How did they fast track this through FFC testing without anyone getting word out?n
What part of the FCC handles non-radio, solid state memory?

Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack. :(
They didn't raise the price of the 8GB iPhone.

no 3G :(

and no updates to mac line :((
We will know when a 3G version is coming because the FCC will get ahold of it. Apple will try to make this as fast as possible now so we should see it in stores 8-12 weeks later. I beliive it took 3 months last time, and Im guessing will be able to get this fast tracked. 2.75G iPhone sales will drop significantly once it hits the FCC.

I agree with Flounder, the MB and MBPs will be updated before the end of March accroding to Apple's history. But first Apple needs to give the MBA some time to shine alone as their new portable.

I don't care about 3G. In US 3G is not available in all areas. I don't want to pay more for feature that is not available in my area. I like the added memory more. I will probably replace my iphone when I they release 64 GB iPhone ;)
I have 1TB of media so I'm not getting one until they have a 1TB SSDs for the iPhone. Seriously, if you want 64GB you'll be waiting awhile. Besides the enormous cost, they don't even that quantity of SSD that will fit in the iPhone.

This is the same pattern they follow almost every year.

1. Macworld gives us the launch of new, redesigned, or quite significantly upgraded products.

2. People get upset that the normal speed/feature bump of an existing product that is due for an update doesn't happen.

3. The updates that didn't happen in 2 get rolled out during February and March.

In the end, this was a very minor update. The storage increased, but so did the price. It's nothing to get excited about, which is why Apple saw fit to release it on Super Tuesday, when the attention is pretty low.

MBPs might be next week, or they might not be for 6 weeks, but they'll be here by the end of March, guaranteed.

There is also another pattern.

1. Apple releases new product or an update to existing product.

2. People start to rejoice that a long awaiting item is here.

3. The rejoicing gets muted by the bellyaching of those who expected more for a lower price or who were expecting something else altogether.

PS: I have a hunch that 10.5.2 will be released this afternoon around 12:30 PST.

Reaperducer

02-05-2008, 09:49 AM

£329 (inc VAT) for the 16GB iPhone here in the UK. That's $650. Ouch!

To contrast, on O2's homepage today they're advertising the Black 8GB N95 for free.

But then you're stuck with an N95 instead of an iPhone. The two certainly aren't equivalent.

There's a reason they're free.

CREB

02-05-2008, 09:49 AM

I don't care about 3G. In US 3G is not available in all areas.

This is an important statement as most people do not realize that although you may have a 3G capable phone that does not mean that you will receive 3G if you are not in an area that has it. Even in Southern California there are many pockets where you cannot receive 3G, and your phone will simply default to Edge. It is even worse when you happen to live in an area where you can only get Edge and a mile or so away your friend can get 3G. Having a capable 3G phone is no guarantee you will receive 3G.

anantksundaram

02-05-2008, 09:57 AM

Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack. :(

What are you talking about: Relative to when I bought mine, they have doubled the memory and lowered the price $100!:p

iextreme

02-05-2008, 10:00 AM

Hey Flounder,

Thanks for clearing that up for me, appreciate it!

But I'm not really worried about the MBP update as I'm not in the market for a new laptop until end of June or July. But that kinda worries me, cause I'll come close to the yearly october/november refresh and I really want a new MacBook that is rumored to maybe come in Aluminum.

The reason I'm worried about this is that I am currently in Japan, but leave in July and my Bro is in America but is leaving in August. Both places, Apple products are between 30-45% cheaper than Sweden...

I don't want to pay a premium just cause I'm not American or Japanese!

Zandros

02-05-2008, 10:05 AM

Why would they have to go through the FFC or FCC or whatever for just a simple memory upgrade. It's not like they're creating a whole new product.

What part of the FCC handles non-radio, solid state memory?

I don't know, but it seems like Sony has to go through FCC revision for even a simple colour update. Also, I was under the impression that motherboards have to pass (self testing admittedly) FCC regulations, so it's not impossible that there are some regulations for memory, right? There was a Gigabyte motherboard that failed to meet the regulations, but still went to market.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the FCC though.

/Adrian

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 10:10 AM

How did they fast track this through FFC testing without anyone getting word out?

The memory chips probably have been tested to have the same RF charactaristics. If the radio is on a separate board, they don't change the radio, antenna or anything that might affect interference, I don't think it needs to be retested.

$500 for 32GB? I don't think so.

I'll take an 8 GB. All I want is the internet and mail.

That's been available all along.

word to the wise: http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

It never hurts to do a little research before shelling out hundreds of dollars. They've had this thing on "don't buy" for quite some time.

I don't think their rating could have been considered accurate with just one data point.

Doesn't it usually work that after a long period of time the price of storage goes down? The increased model then sells for the same as the high end previous version? What gives this time? The 8 &16 GB flash drive hasn't decreased in cost since last September- 6 months? Wouldn't these drop in another 3 months at most? Who would buy now at these prices?

I don't think they have competition yet. A quick search turns up no other media phones / smart phones with 16GB of memory. I expect that will change in three months, but for now, no.

CoolHandPete

02-05-2008, 10:16 AM

I'm kinda surprised by this and worried what it means for the launch of the new MacBook Pros and MacBooks.

While I'm no expert on Apple launch dates, this seems sort of unlike Apple to do, usually they upgrade their iPods all at once during the autumn...

Personally, I think 500 for the 32G is way to much, but if u keep in mind what they are charging for the SSD of 64Gb, it kinda makes since, but would still have been nice if the line would have seen a 50-100 price drop or if they just removed the 8G all together and replaced the 8G-16G, 16-32G at the same price points.

For me, now comes the question, do I really wanna fork out 500 for 32G, nothing lesser will do...

That is the question, isn't it? I've been stomping around saying I'll get the Touch when it's 32GB. Now I'm a tad sheepish, asking myself the old standard poor-man Mac Fan questions like, "Maybe I should wait until they put [name your feature]" so I can justify plunking down a cool half-grand.

Having said that, I'm still glad they responded to the apparently strong voice of the consumers who've asked for this (me included).

solipsism

02-05-2008, 10:21 AM

I don't know, but it seems like Sony has to go through FCC revision for even a simple colour update. Also, I was under the impression that motherboards have to pass (self testing admittedly) FCC regulations, so it's not impossible that there are some regulations for memory, right? There was a Gigabyte motherboard that failed to meet the regulations, but still went to market.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the FCC though.

/Adrian
I think the breakdown shows the RF chips on a seperate chip. This would be smart if the FCC only requires the board with the RF chips on it.

I don't recall if the SSD was soldered to the MoBo or not, but it may just be a plug like with most HDDs and large SSDs. I'll check on that later...

But then you're stuck with an N95 instead of an iPhone. The two certainly aren't equivalent.

There's a reason they're free.
I recall people who were going to get the contract with the N95 and then sell it on eBay o shore up the cost of the iPhone. The new contract with O2 for the iPhone would cancel the previous one, not extend the current one. I'm not sure if that ever worked.

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 10:21 AM

And so the wait for a Macbook Pro update/refresh continues. I'm full of sadness.

Are there Penryn-based notebooks in mass production? Apple seems to delay updates until they have enough chips to supply their demand.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 10:26 AM

I'm still glad they responded to the apparently strong voice of the consumers who've asked for this (me included).

This has nothing to do with an initial oversight or listening to customers demands. It is merely the natural projection of technology getting cheaper and small over time.

Brian Green

02-05-2008, 10:28 AM

I'll be skipping this version of the iPhone hoping that the next will have some new features. I'll be patient with them and hope that their next model will persuade me to part with my hard earned cash. 16GB is nice to have, but it's still not close to my iPod storage needs. :\

Rogzilla

02-05-2008, 10:28 AM

I have to say I am surprised to get into work this morning and find this in my RSS feed. I didn't believe Jobs when he said "We have done all this and are only 2 weeks in to the year!" or whatever. I hope this means we will see a lot of great updates to the products (new MBP) and some more new ones (Newton tablet thing).

solipsism

02-05-2008, 10:34 AM

Are there Penryn-based notebooks in mass production? Apple seems to delay updates until they have enough chips to supply their demand.

I'd like to see the dispersal of these high-end chips. Apple may not be the top dog with unit sales of notebooks but they are probably at or near the top of purchasers of new chips produced by Intel.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 10:42 AM

Excuse me, but what got cheaper? or smaller?

32GB SSD from just 6 months prior. Please, try to keep up.

Rot'nApple

02-05-2008, 10:50 AM

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 10:51 AM

32GB SSD from just 6 months prior. Please, try to keep up.

It could be that the higher density chips came down to a price level that's good enough for inclusion. The Touch is an extremely slim device, it's not as if they can just double the number of chips, they have to use more expensive chips, the highest density chips come at a premium.

NasserAE

02-05-2008, 10:57 AM

solipsism
I have 1TB of media so I'm not getting one until they have a 1TB SSDs for the iPhone. Seriously, if you want 64GB you'll be waiting awhile. Besides the enormous cost, they don't even that quantity of SSD that will fit in the iPhone.

That was my point. I am not so interested in buying new iPhone since I just got mine last August and 8 GB more won't make a difference to me right now ;)

Rot'nApple

02-05-2008, 10:59 AM

Post from 'aiolos': [QOUTE]Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack.[/QUOTE]

Because memory is not free?

Some of it is!

For 100 bucks, iPod touch with the 32GB model, gets a memory increase of 16GB versus the 8GB memory increase for the iPhone for that same 100 dollars.

in otherwords, 8GB FREE memory for the iPod Touch:D

Bobo Decosta

02-05-2008, 11:01 AM

This is an important statement as most people do not realize that although you may have a 3G capable phone that does not mean that you will receive 3G if you are not in an area that has it. Even in Southern California there are many pockets where you cannot receive 3G, and your phone will simply default to Edge. It is even worse when you happen to live in an area where you can only get Edge and a mile or so away your friend can get 3G. Having a capable 3G phone is no guarantee you will receive 3G.

Who cares about the US? In Europe you have everywhere 3G. A few hours ago I said to a friend that Apple should release an 16gb iPhone with 3G soon so it would be worth to buy one. I come home and see this 16gb iPhone without 3G??? This doesn't look good for european countries who still don't have iPhones for sale. Looking at the sales in UK, Ger and FR it doesn't look like a lot of carriers will be rolling out an EDGE network only to support a few iPhones that will be sold.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 11:01 AM

It could be that the higher density chips came down to a price level that's good enough for inclusion. The Touch is an extremely slim device, it's not as if they can just double the number of chips, they have to use more expensive chips.

I never did check out sizes on the chips used in the iPhone/iPod Touch, but I do suspect that these chips weren't even available 6 months ago regardless of price.

Brian Green

02-05-2008, 11:05 AM

That was my point. I am not so interested in buying new iPhone since I just got mine last August and 8 GB more won't make a difference to me right now ;)

I agree with you. While I got my iPhone the day it was released, I've already bit the bullet and pared down my media to meet the capacity limitations. 8GB more isn't enough for me to go through that process again. Had they given us the 32GB in the iPod Touch, I may have been swayed. As it is, though, this gives Apple even more time to slow-walk it and eventually release the iPhone with 32GB further on down the road without other changes.

NasserAE

02-05-2008, 11:07 AM

Who cares about the US? In Europe you have everywhere 3G. A few hours ago I said to a friend that Apple should release an 16gb iPhone with 3G soon so it would be worth to buy one. I come home and see this 16gb iPhone without 3G??? This doesn't look good for european countries who still don't have iPhones for sale. Looking at the sales in UK, Ger and FR it doesn't look like a lot of carriers will be rolling out an EDGE network only to support a few iPhones that will be sold.

Well, 270,000 iPhone in the first weekend in the US alone makes Apple care.

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 11:09 AM

But then you're stuck with an N95 instead of an iPhone. The two certainly aren't equivalent.

There's a reason they're free.

There's certainly worse things to be 'stuck' with than a free N95. They're free because they're heavily subsidised, unlike the iPhone.

I recall people who were going to get the contract with the N95 and then sell it on eBay o shore up the cost of the iPhone. The new contract with O2 for the iPhone would cancel the previous one, not extend the current one. I'm not sure if that ever worked.

Yep, I think it was me that suggested it as at the time O2 were supposedly going to offer the same iPhone tariffs to users of other phones on their network. My thinking was that you get the N95 (or whatever is going well on eBay) for free with an iPhone tariff, buy an iPhone without the attached contract and register it with the first phone's SIM. Then sell the first phone on eBay for a few hundred quid. Since unlocking any phone other than an iPhone is as easy as bunging the bloke on the market a fiver, even a locked phone is an easy sale.

I'm not sure if that all worked out though and I've not looked since the iPhone's hardware is so weak and the software updates have been absent. Anyone done it ? I'll maybe have a look once the SDK is out a few weeks and the holes in the software are fixed. It's also a pity O2 aren't doing business tariffs till later this year as I'd possibly buy 2-3 iphones if I they had the usual O2 business terms of free calls between colleagues.

Eriamjh

02-05-2008, 11:09 AM

I'm familiar with the FCC. It's called "family testing". Apple may have tested a 16GB model to begin with even though it may have been VERY expensive for the chips, they knew the price would come down.

Second, they probably have been testing a 16GB model since the 8BG launch but no one bothered to notice since the phone itself is "the same".

solipsism

02-05-2008, 11:10 AM

The iPhone and iTouch is what we talking about here and neither got cheaper. If the 32GB SSD is cheaper than why is the 16GB and 8 GB the same price? You can't say the 32 iTouch is cheaper if it never existed before. Your reasoning once again makes no sense.

I have serious doubts that you can really be this obtuse. 32GB SSD was more than a $100 over 16GB SSD from 6 months ago. Unless Apple is losing profit the prices of SSD have dropped.

Rogzilla

02-05-2008, 11:15 AM

Hey, I have been around the net enough to know that ANYONE cane be that obtuse.

iextreme

02-05-2008, 11:17 AM

This has nothing to do with an initial oversight or listening to customers demands. It is merely the natural projection of technology getting cheaper and small over time.

I disagree. If it was JUST the natural projection of technology and not at least in part, due to consumer demand, there is no reason for Apple to make these updates. They could just have waited to give the Touch 32 and/or 40G in the autumn when the natural revision of the iPod line occurs.

While the Touch is certainly very popular, especially here in Japan, I still think a lot of buyers have been hesitant to buy it due to the limited memory sizes.

NasserAE

02-05-2008, 11:18 AM

The iPhone and iTouch is what we talking about here and neither got cheaper. If the 32GB SSD is cheaper than why is the 16GB and 8 GB the same price? You can't say the 32 iTouch is cheaper if it never existed before. Your reasoning once again makes no sense.

Don't forget that the iPhone is a phone and have built in camera that might offset the price of the 8GB of extra memory the touch have.

Bobo Decosta

02-05-2008, 11:22 AM

Well, 270,000 iPhone in the first weekend in the US alone makes Apple care.

Like people in the US even can afford an iPhone these days :lol:

corpmac

02-05-2008, 11:27 AM

As much as I love apple I wish they would roll out these products to all the countries at the same time.

In the UK we have no update as of today! But what do I care my iPhone is as good as new and I am not going to upgrade for at least a year!

Yeah - I wonder why that is? I speculated over on my blog http://www.corpmac.co.uk about this - they simply may be a delay in updating the UK store - or more seriously, we know that the phone hasn't been selling as well in the UK and Europe as predicted - so they may be delaying the 16Gb model's introduction here to allow inventory of the 8Gb model to clear down a bit. I hope that's not the case.

Alan.

iextreme

02-05-2008, 11:28 AM

Like people in the US even can afford an iPhone these days :lol:

To some extent I agree with Bobo. But I also think that 32G may have existed 6 months ago but was too expensive to incorporate. However, if 32G got cheaper, certainly 16G and 8G got cheaper as well and this just means that Apple is making even more profits off the Touch!

Good for them I say, but personally, I'm pretty sure when autumn comes, the 8G vill be gone, and 16, 32 and maybe 48G will be there but at a 100 dollars less each...

riversky

02-05-2008, 11:31 AM

Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack.

You are not very observant are you?

Haha yes it is a NEW model at a higher price! Not the SAME model at a higher price...LOL

solipsism

02-05-2008, 11:49 AM

Do you not understand how nothing got cheaper in the product line. The 32GB is a new iTouch. The 16 and 8 GBs are over 6 months old- where is the price reduction?????:no:

My reply was to someone who was excited about the 32GB capacity option. Your reading comprehension is either lower than normal or you are purposely altering what I stated for some secret agenda. CoolHandPete wrote, "I'm still glad they responded to the apparently strong voice of the consumers who've asked for this (me included)."
Solipsism wtrote, "This has nothing to do with an initial oversight or listening to customers demands. It is merely the natural projection of technology getting cheaper and small[er] over time."Clearly implying that a 32GB SSD iPhone/Touch was either too expensive and/or not physically possible within the constraints of the device, not that they listened to the customer as an after thought and rushed to get in their. I never stated that iPhone/Touch have become cheaper. I never stated that Apple is required to lower prices of its current product line the moment technology becomes cheaper.

If you have trouble reading my posts then I suggest you ignore them. I can not cater my responses to the least common denominator; I simply don't have the patience for it.

Kolchak

02-05-2008, 11:56 AM

£329 (inc VAT) for the 16GB iPhone here in the UK. That's $650. Ouch!
Hey, it's not our fault you live in a country with 17.5% VAT. Without VAT, it's a little over $550, so it's not that far off from the US price, only 10% higher. Talk to your government if you feel ripped off. Or buy it on eBay, where you can probably get it for about US retail price and there's no VAT.

iextreme

02-05-2008, 12:06 PM

kenaustus

02-05-2008, 12:07 PM

BRussell

02-05-2008, 12:17 PM

I think it's hilarious that people are bitching about this. Can you imagine the bitching if Apple actually had lowered the prices? :lol:

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 12:29 PM

True that, but that also means that the average European (average EU VAT range between 15-25%) get more than 10% ripped off by Apple!

That's not the whole story. The higher cost of living in the EU means that the cost of distribution is higher, then there's the warranty work and so on.

Abster2core

02-05-2008, 12:30 PM

Are there Penryn-based notebooks in mass production? Apple seems to delay updates until they have enough chips to supply their demand.
Why would you use the term delay?

Bigfatdummy

02-05-2008, 12:32 PM

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 12:38 PM

Why would you use the term delay?

Why would you object to it?

CoolHandPete

02-05-2008, 12:39 PM

So they release a 32 GB iTouch but only release a 16 GB iPhone??? Come on! I would be buying a new iPhone today if they had released a 32 GB model. I don't know about most of you, but my 80 GB video iPod is 80% full. I want one device to do it all. I want to combine my iPod, Phone and my Palm into one device. 16 GB just wont cut it.

I think it's probably a demand issue. Apple is always careful about maintaining price-points, and seems to know what the market will support. Clearly, they feel the market will support a 32 GB iPod Touch at $499, but not an iPhone with the same storage for what may have been $100 more.

I am surprised they added a "high-end" iPod Touch for a $100 premium, but apparently they are figuring it will increase in popularity once the SDK comes out. Space will certainly be an issue with so much new software being released over the coming months, so it makes sense. But it still surprises me that they chose to expand the line so quickly. I'm swaying toward buying one myself. I find myself adding the total space of my iTunes files on a weekly basis nowadays!

iextreme

02-05-2008, 12:51 PM

Why would you object to it?

He didn't object! He merely asked you a question.
I truly find it amazing how easy it is for us all to misunderstand each other.

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 12:55 PM

Hey, it's not our fault you live in a country with 17.5% VAT. Without VAT, it's a little over $550, so it's not that far off from the US price, only 10% higher. Talk to your government if you feel ripped off. Or buy it on eBay, where you can probably get it for about US retail price and there's no VAT.

I wasn't bitching about VAT or the price difference. I quite like VAT. VAT pays for my free healthcare.

I was saying 'Ouch' because it's a very expensive locked phone when everybody else and their dog are giving away theirs here.

You may be used to low taxes and paying top whack for phones. I prefer free and slightly higher taxes.

Rogzilla

02-05-2008, 12:57 PM

CoolHandPete may have a point. Specifically, that these updates are done in preparation for the SDK which will take up more space on the devices.

gugy

02-05-2008, 12:58 PM

Going to the store to buy one today!:D

8gig was the only thing holding me back. 16 is here, cool
Now version 2.0 might come later in the year with 3g. But I am not holding my breath. I would think at least 5 to 6 months to see a new iPhone.

Even if comes earlier, ebay is always here to sell my old one.;)

solipsism

02-05-2008, 01:08 PM

solipsism

02-05-2008, 01:32 PM

CoolHandPete may have a point. Specifically, that these updates are done in preparation for the SDK which will take up more space on the devices.

Perhaps, but applications don't take up much space compared to content. I think it's just a stopgap until a 3G arrives. A way to bolster sales for a couple more months before there is a sharp decline after it is announced. Perhaps then we will see lowered prices on the 1st generation iPhone line.

YTV

02-05-2008, 01:35 PM

I don't care about 3G. In US 3G is not available in all areas. I don't want to pay more for feature that is not available in my area. I like the added memory more. I will probably replace my iphone when I they release 64 GB iPhone ;)

Not related to the iPhone since its ATT. But if your on Sprint or Verizon 3G is available in most areas.

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 01:40 PM

He didn't object! He merely asked you a question.
I truly find it amazing how easy it is for us all to misunderstand each other.

I think I understood why that question was asked though. I can be wrong.

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 01:44 PM

Perhaps, but applications don't take up much space compared to content. I think it's just a stopgap until a 3G arrives. A way to bolster sales for a couple more months before there is a sharp decline after it is announced. Perhaps then we will see lowered prices on the 1st generation iPhone line.

Depends on the application. I've got TomTom Mobile on my now 4 year old p910i and it takes up about 400MB of one of my cards. I've also got more MAME games and SCUMMVM games than I can possibly play taking up another 800MB.

The SDK is going to increase the demand on space significantly I reckon.

Rot'nApple

02-05-2008, 01:48 PM

I think it's probably a demand issue. Apple is always careful about maintaining price-points, and seems to know what the market will support. Clearly, they feel the market will support a 32 GB iPod Touch at $499, but not an iPhone with the same storage for what may have been $100 more.

I am surprised they added a "high-end" iPod Touch for a $100 premium, but apparently they are figuring it will increase in popularity once the SDK comes out. Space will certainly be an issue with so much new software being released over the coming months, so it makes sense. But it still surprises me that they chose to expand the line so quickly. I'm swaying toward buying one myself. I find myself adding the total space of my iTunes files on a weekly basis nowadays!

So what you are saying is, and I am being humorous here, by the time you add all that "new software over the coming months" that you will still be stucks with a 8GB iPhone but have paid Apple's 100 dollar registration fee to the world of SDK apps???:lol:

Rot'nApple

02-05-2008, 01:55 PM

Not related to the iPhone since its ATT. But if your on Sprint or Verizon 3G is available in most areas.

But I guess they are getting there... :\

http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/popUp_3g.html

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 01:56 PM

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:01 PM

Excuse me, but what got cheaper? or smaller?

The memory has come down in price somewhat.

Recently, Flash price drops haven't kept pace with the drop in price of RAM, which has dropped precipitously. But, if Apple had put this much Flash into the devices three months ago, they would have had to raise the price by $150, or more.

I suppose, $100 was the price point they considered to be viable. Larger capacity chips(one reason for the price drop), with their lower power draw also helps.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 02:01 PM

Depends on the application. I've got TomTom Mobile on my now 4 year old p910i and it takes up about 400MB of one of my cards. I've also got more MAME games and SCUMMVM games than I can possibly play taking up another 800MB.

The SDK is going to increase the demand on space significantly I reckon.
I agree, but I most productivity apps are fairly small. How big is are the apps without the maps or game content loaded? Most productivity apps for other smartphones and the ones loaded on the iPhone are less than a few MB.

I still feel it's a more for marketing reasons to boost flattening sales after the holidays than making way for the SDK. After all there are over 4M people with iPhones that are only 4 or 8GB right now. They can't leave them without these apps.

I wonder if they will be lowering the prices of the current capacity iPhone when 3G arrives?

So the soothsayer is now saying that a 64GB version would cost $1K! Dude- where did you learn to read and how do you know it would be priced as such by Apple?

• http://www.google.com/products?q=64+GB+SSD&oe=UTF-8&scoring=p&sa=N&lnk=next&start=10

NasserAE

02-05-2008, 02:04 PM

Not related to the iPhone since its ATT. But if your on Sprint or Verizon 3G is available in most areas.
If you didn't notice we are talking about the iPhone here and using it on the official network (AT&T) in the US is part of the iPhone package.

SactoMan01

02-05-2008, 02:04 PM

My disappointment was that Apple didn't release a 16 GB 3G iPod nano. :( That would have been a hot seller and at 16 GB of memory, that's more than enough to hold quite a lot of music and even music videos.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:05 PM

Post from 'aiolos': [QOUTE]Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack.

Some of it is!

For 100 bucks, iPod touch with the 32GB model, gets a memory increase of 16GB versus the 8GB memory increase for the iPhone for that same 100 dollars.

in otherwords, 8GB FREE memory for the iPod Touch:D

What Apple is likely doing, is to some extent, averaging the price increases.

Companies almost always do that. They are also likely accepting a slightly lower margin on the iTouch when compared to the iPhone.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:09 PM

The iPhone and iTouch is what we talking about here and neither got cheaper. If the 32GB SSD is cheaper than why is the 16GB and 8 GB the same price? You can't say the 32 iTouch is cheaper if it never existed before. Your reasoning once again makes no sense.

The lower priced chips drop in price much less than the higher priced chips do.

Look at older RAM. You will notice that the older chips, per capacity, can actuslly cost more than the newer higher capacity chips.

I suspect that Apple will either lower the price on the older models later, or discontinue them when the price on the larger memory drops enough.

By not trying to drop the price on the lower cap models now, they also partly subsidize the price of the newer models, encouraging people to buy them instead, which will happen in a good number of instances.

This is all standard business practice.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:13 PM

Why would you object to it?

It implies intention. We don't know that.

solipsism

02-05-2008, 02:14 PM

The lower priced chips drop in price much less than the higher priced chips do...

I suspect he knows that. If you look at his posting history you'll see that he often tries to goad me in on these forums. Something about me not agreeing with his desire for AppleTV to play DVDs remotely, I think.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:16 PM

I wasn't bitching about VAT or the price difference. I quite like VAT. VAT pays for my free healthcare.

You have no free healthcare. You pay for every penny. VAT and (much) higher taxes.

We don't have that, so we don't all have "free" healthcare, but we might get it if a Democrat is elected.

JeffDM

02-05-2008, 02:17 PM

It implies intention. We don't know that.

I don't think it necessarily has to mean that they had intent or even a choice. If the chips aren't available to Apple, they have nothing to announce.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:21 PM

I suspect he knows that. If you look at his posting history you'll see that he often tries to goad me in on these forums. Something about me not agreeing with his desire for AppleTV to play DVDs remotely, I think.

I know, we had a big argument about the price (and manufacturing methodology) for a 64GB SSD before the Air came out.

mdotdubz

02-05-2008, 02:30 PM

I know, we had a big argument about the price (and manufacturing methodology) for a 64GB SSD before the Air came out.

Fluck that! I'm holding out for a 64GB SSD iPod Shuffle :lol:

Abster2core

02-05-2008, 02:34 PM

Why would you object to it?
Because "delay" and, in particular, "seems to delay" has such a nefarious undertone to it.

Your immediate question, i.e., "Are there Penryn-based notebooks in mass production?" was perfect.

Having said that, a better follow-up might have been, "Undoubtedly, Apple wouldn't purposely delay an update if there were enough chips to supply the demand. That is, if that was what you, or at least I hope you, were implying.

P.S., I hope that you understand that I didn't want your response to be misunderstood. I personally like your most recent posting, i.e., "If the chips aren't available to Apple, they have nothing to announce," is better than what I offered above.

Have a good day. Mine might have gotten off rather poorly.

melgross

02-05-2008, 02:41 PM

Because "delay" and, in particular, "seems to delay" has such a nefarious undertone to it.

Your immediate question, i.e., "Are there Penryn-based notebooks in mass production?" was perfect.

Having said that, a better follow-up might have been, "Undoubtedly, Apple wouldn't purposely delay an update if there were enough chips to supply the demand. That is, if that was what you, or at least I hope you, were implying

Yes, that's what I mean as well. The way it was worded implied that Apple was deliberately delaying the introductions.

Now, truthfully, they do that at times. They do it to hold some event, where they announce them. I've objected to it myself. But, we don't know if that's the reason here.

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 03:00 PM

You have no free healthcare. You pay for every penny. VAT and (much) higher taxes.

We also have tax credits for those that are on low incomes. Last year I spent 6 months working on personal projects so my income was pretty low. I've not added it up but I suspect the tax man paid me more back in tax credits than I did in tax to him.

So yes, we pay higher taxes, but if you're not up shit creek without a paddle if you're going through a lean patch and fall ill.

And that's why we're more used to subsidised phones. Er....:err:

We don't have that, so we don't all have "free" healthcare, but we might get it if a Democrat is elected.

Well, I hope so. It does strike me as particularly stupid that one of the world's richest countries doesn't look after it's poor and sick well. I wouldn't bet on it changing though. I'm always underwhelmed by politicians and their promises.

melgross

02-05-2008, 03:08 PM

We also have tax credits for those that are on low incomes. Last year I spent 6 months working on personal projects so my income was pretty low. I've not added it up but I suspect the tax man paid me more back in tax credits than I did in tax to him.

So yes, we pay higher taxes, but if you're not up shit creek without a paddle if you're going through a lean patch and fall ill.

And that's why we're more used to subsidised phones. Er....:err:

Well, I hope so. It does strike me as particularly stupid that one of the world's richest countries doesn't look after it's poor and sick well. I wouldn't bet on it changing though. I'm always underwhelmed by politicians and their promises.

For the most part, people here DON"T want the government to provide them with the "cradle to the grave" services demanded in Europe.

If you've been following the election process here, you will see that a very large part of the public would prefer even MORE tax cuts instead.

I can give a good example from my own company.

We had a healthcare plan that even included dental services, and eyeglasses. For a small company (75 people at the highest), that was pretty good, and I was proud of it.

But I used to have employees regularly come to me to ask if I could drop their healthcare in exchange for some more money in their paycheck. If they insisted, I had no choice but to do that, but it was a foolish thing to do. Very shortsighted. But, people are like that.

aiolos

02-05-2008, 03:14 PM

You are not very observant are you?

I'm just as observant as you are, thanks. I just wanted them the increase the size and keep the price the same, like they tend to do with some updates.

aegisdesign

02-05-2008, 03:22 PM

For the most part, people here DON"T want the government to provide them with the "cradle to the grave" services demanded in Europe.

That's maybe true for the middle classes but I suspect that the however many people without healthcare in the USA think otherwise.

If you've been following the election process here, you will see that a very large part of the public would prefer even MORE tax cuts instead.

Yes, and I find it saddening. It's a pity the US is heading into a downturn when you've got such huge domestic problems to sort out. People seem to be thinking about their own backs not everyone's. If only you could elect out of paying such high taxes on your stupidly large defence budget eh?

I can give a good example from my own company.

We had a healthcare plan that even included dental services, and eyeglasses. For a small company (75 people at the highest), that was pretty good, and I was proud of it.

But I used to have employees regularly come to me to ask if I could drop their healthcare in exchange for some more money in their paycheck. If they insisted, I had no choice but to do that, but it was a foolish thing to do. Very shortsighted. But, people are like that.

So perhaps the answer is you each stop paying taxes to the gov for defence and you take out personal defence insurance and just hope that enough rich people in the USA pay enough to keep an army going? It's worked well for healthcare hasn't it? ;)

melgross

02-05-2008, 03:36 PM

That's maybe true for the middle classes but I suspect that the however many people without healthcare in the USA think otherwise.

You'd be surprised. It was the lowest paid employees who were the most vocal in refusing my healthcare package.

Yes, and I find it saddening. It's a pity the US is heading into a downturn when you've got such huge domestic problems to sort out. People seem to be thinking about their own backs not everyone's. If only you could elect out of paying such high taxes on your stupidly large defence budget eh?

We have such a large defense budget so that you don't. Sad, eh?

So perhaps the answer is you each stop paying taxes to the gov for defence and you take out personal defence insurance and just hope that enough rich people in the USA pay enough to keep an army going? It's worked well for healthcare hasn't it? ;)

Funny.

regan

02-05-2008, 03:44 PM

I know some people are already complaining about the price(figures). But I remember the first ipod was like $500 too. And it was only 5 gigs and B&W with no video or internet!

So...in a way, the ipod touch is worth it to me.

My 60gig ipod recently broke, and I've been without music for nearly 3 weeks now. I didn't buy a new 60 gig ipod because I prefer the touch, but 16 gigs was just not enough(I have 21 gigs of audio so far).

I was HOPING a 32gig ipod touch would be released....and now my wish is answered! Thank you Apple!

Seriously. I am about to travel, and I was going to buy a new macbook(for surfing the web and email) AND an ipod...but now thanks to the touch update, I can put off my macbook purchase for now and just get the 32gig ipod touch. That way I can pretty much have a wifi laptop that fits in my pocket for my travels....which to me is so worth $500. Otherwise I'd be spending close to 2 grand for a new macbook and ipod.

For others it may not be a good deal right now. But for my situation it's perfect. :-)

Having said that, I look forward to when Apple puts a camera in this baby. Imagine being able to take pics on the fly and do video conferencing? :-) That'd be sooooo sweet.

I know the iphone has some of that now...but I travel so much, and don't like to be locked into ANY phone contract. If the iphone had a pay as you go plan, I'd be all over it. Until then, it's the ipod touch for me. :-)

GregAlexander

02-05-2008, 03:46 PM

Doesn't it usually work that after a long period of time the price of storage goes down? The increased model then sells for the same as the high end previous version? What gives this time? The 8 &16 GB flash drive hasn't decreased in cost since last September- 6 months? Wouldn't these drop in another 3 months at most? Who would buy now at these prices?

I think Apple probably dropped the price more than they wanted to last time, but wanted a nice even number - which is why the same lower price wasn't reflected in Europe. So although the prices for memory are going down, we won't see that in the product just yet (but yes... I would've thought European iPhone/iTouch prices would drop slightly today, but they haven't eh?? hmmm).

The 32GB is probably set reasonably correctly in price. I suppose when the 3G iPhone comes out the 2.5G models will drop in price - I wonder if the iPod Touch will drop too?

Why only 32GB for he iPod touch?

Weird isn't it. I haven't studied the product tear downs - does an iPod touch have 2 sockets while the iPhone only has 1? Or is it just Apple's way of differentiating the products and giving the iTouch a boost?

btitusjr

02-05-2008, 04:01 PM

Not related to the iPhone since its ATT. But if your on Sprint or Verizon 3G is available in most areas.

Yes and a iPhone with 2.5g and a different smartphone with 3G is not all that faster. Therefore I dont understand why everyone is all upset that there is no 3G.:rolleyes:

solipsism

02-05-2008, 04:12 PM

Yes and a iPhone with 2.5g and a different smartphone with 3G is not all that faster. Therefore I dont understand why everyone is all upset that there is no 3G.:rolleyes:

The tests do show a very comparable display between the 2.75G iPhone and a 3G non-iPhone, but I would think a 3G iPhone would easily best other 3G smartphones. If it's great enough, Apple may use such a comparison in the keynote.

GregoriusM

02-05-2008, 04:12 PM

Apple is getting there for me. When the iPhone came out I looked at that 8 gigs and the use of OS X, thought about the potential of developers jumping on an SDK and figured 8 gigs wouldn't make it. 16 gigs now look like the minimum with the SDK arriving this month. When you think of potential apps that will arrive this year along with the other stuff that will now be in a fully used iPhone memory is going to be the key.

Exactly what I was going to say. Memory upped just in time for the SDK to be released.

I believe that there are already major developers ready with finished or almost finished apps for your iPhone/iTouch. You're going to want as much memory on your iPhone/iTouch as possible once you can put applications on it.

Abster2core

02-05-2008, 04:52 PM

Not related to the iPhone since its ATT. But if your on Sprint or Verizon 3G is available in most areas.
I believe that all the carriers share their 3g with each other. Exact coverage by each carrier is a little convoluted, but I suspect that it is a reflection of where they have services already available.

Perhaps a look at ATT and compare the others by specfic regions would help determine who is best and where. http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/

YTV

02-05-2008, 06:52 PM

I believe that all the carriers share their 3g with each other. Exact coverage by each carrier is a little convoluted, but I suspect that it is a reflection of where they have services already available.

Perhaps a look at ATT and compare the others by specfic regions would help determine who is best and where. http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/

Im sorry but you are mis-informed. All carriers have their own networks. I have no idea what goes on between ATT and Tmobile, but I know that Sprint has roaming agreements with Alltel to use their 3G network where Sprint does not have native coverage. Also Verizons native coverage is pretty good from what I have heard. Virtually everywhere I travel I have 3G access with Sprint in the US.

TenoBell

02-05-2008, 07:18 PM

Hopefully this means a 32GB/3G for the next iPhone refresh.

Zenga

02-05-2008, 07:38 PM

Any word on what the version is on those new iPhones?
SDK will be out this month right? No update?
I Jailbreaked my iPhone but haven´t been able to activate it...

:smokey:

Abster2core

02-06-2008, 01:09 AM

Im sorry but you are mis-informed. All carriers have their own networks. I have no idea what goes on between ATT and Tmobile, but I know that Sprint has roaming agreements with Alltel to use their 3G network where Sprint does not have native coverage. Also Verizons native coverage is pretty good from what I have heard. Virtually everywhere I travel I have 3G access with Sprint in the US.
Yes they have their own networks, but not the towers which they lease from tower companies such as American Tower, Crown Castle International (CCI), and SBA Communications (SBAC), etc., who in turn lease their towers to all the cell phone companies.

Obviously, the bigger the cell phone company, the greater the number of towers they manage in their respective network.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/American_Tower_(AMT)

copeland

02-06-2008, 05:45 AM

Abster2core

02-06-2008, 06:27 AM

Does anybody know why $1 for a iPod is less worth than $1 for a Mac.
When I buy a iPod 32GB in the US I have to pay $499, when I do the same in the Austrian store I have to pay €459. But when I buy a Mac mini (base configuration) in the US I have to pay $599, in the Austrian store I have to pay €599.
So for the iPod the ratio is: $1=€0,90
for the Mac the ratio is : $1=€1
As I am in the market for a Mac and not a iPod, this isn't nice!:mad:
For the difference in the ratio I could even buy a Apple mouse and keyboard for the mini:devil:
Because you don't deserve it!

What?

That's right. You made your bed, or at least your parents did, and now you have to sleep in it.

First of all, it seems to reason that an American product would be priced less in the US than in another country. Packaging, distribution, translation, legal fees, marketing, promotion, advertising, etc., done under US standards and regulations vs any incremental costs that may be applied by foreign custom agencies, brokers and transportation organizations. These are just a few of the handful of factors that may play a part in the final consideration.

Don't forget the monetary fluctuations and the cost of goods, i.e., parts, etc., at the time of development, production and distribution contribute to the final pricing.

Other important considerations may include internal market structures factored by cost of living, salaries, market volume and dynamics, and even the size of the package and its affect on the environment.

The list goes on. However, keep in mind, that there may be a regional surcharge placed on an item simply by the category it is placed in. In some countries there is a surtax on "music" players, or a part or parts of it. Note that such could cause an incremental costs for manpower, legal and packaging, etc. Albeit small but it all adds up.

Oh, don't forget product support.

And lastly, and probably it may simply just be where you live. That's the way they do it. It just belies everything. And that's the bed you made and now you have to sleep in it.

By the way, we are, sort to speak, all in the same bed.

YTV

02-06-2008, 11:05 AM

Yes they have their own networks, but not the towers which they lease from tower companies such as American Tower, Crown Castle International (CCI), and SBA Communications (SBAC), etc., who in turn lease their towers to all the cell phone companies.

Obviously, the bigger the cell phone company, the greater the number of towers they manage in their respective network.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/American_Tower_(AMT)

None of that changes the fact that each indivdual carrier has their own 3g network. It is NOT 1 big network that all carriers share.

copeland

02-06-2008, 11:20 AM

Because you don't deserve it!

What?

That's right. You made your bed, or at least your parents did, and now you have to sleep in it.

First of all, it seems to reason that an American product would be priced less in the US than in another country. Packaging, distribution, translation, legal fees, marketing, promotion, advertising, etc., done under US standards and regulations vs any incremental costs that may be applied by foreign custom agencies, brokers and transportation organizations. These are just a few of the handful of factors that may play a part in the final consideration.

Don't forget the monetary fluctuations and the cost of goods, i.e., parts, etc., at the time of development, production and distribution contribute to the final pricing.

Other important considerations may include internal market structures factored by cost of living, salaries, market volume and dynamics, and even the size of the package and its affect on the environment.

The list goes on. However, keep in mind, that there may be a regional surcharge placed on an item simply by the category it is placed in. In some countries there is a surtax on "music" players, or a part or parts of it. Note that such could cause an incremental costs for manpower, legal and packaging, etc. Albeit small but it all adds up.

Oh, don't forget product support.

And lastly, and probably it may simply just be where you live. That's the way they do it. It just belies everything. And that's the bed you made and now you have to sleep in it.

By the way, we are, sort to speak, all in the same bed.

It just puzzled me that there is such a big difference in their own product line. As you correctly said music players have a surcharge here, but computers don't.
Anyway regularly I can stand the difference between the US and Europe (I can't change it anyway), but this time I couldn't hold it back and I had to let it go.:embarrass

Ireland

02-06-2008, 12:29 PM

I'm just as observant as you are, thanks. I just wanted them the increase the size and keep the price the same, like they tend to do with some updates.
Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.
Gah, why did they have to raise the price 100 bucks, faaaaaaaaaaaack. :(
That is why I said you are not very observant, you aren't.

Ireland

02-06-2008, 12:34 PM

Hopefully this means a 32GB/3G for the next iPhone refresh.
If it doesn't I think I'll join in the group of millions who will kick Jobs in the balls.

Furthermore I think they should seriously consider adding GPS too, they may as well put that Garmin phone out of business before it gets released :p

solipsism

02-06-2008, 12:46 PM

Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.

I wonder if the 3G iPhone at these current capacities will be lowered in price. I think the 8 and 16GB models probably will, if they decide to keep the 8GB version.

solipsism

02-06-2008, 12:49 PM

IFurthermore I think they should seriously consider adding GPS too, they may as well put that Garmin phone out of business before it gets released :p

No GPS for me. I have a stand alone unit for that. The Google Maps locator is good enough for a phone. I don't need an costly chips that will add bulk to the iPhone and drain the battery in 30 minutes when it's on.

Abster2core

02-06-2008, 01:04 PM

It just puzzled me that there is such a big difference in their own product line. As you correctly said music players have a surcharge here, but computers don't.
Anyway regularly I can stand the difference between the US and Europe (I can't change it anyway), but this time I couldn't hold it back and I had to let it go.:embarrass

Yes, but I bet we would pay a heck of a premium for a few Eierschwammerls here. But then, we are big on Campbell's Mushroom soup.

Abster2core

02-06-2008, 01:06 PM

None of that changes the fact that each indivdual carrier has their own 3g network. It is NOT 1 big network that all carriers share.
Isn't that what I said?

solipsism

02-06-2008, 01:45 PM

And change to a 2-3 megapixel camera please. There is a major difference in quality from 1.3.

Then you're in luck, it already has a 2.0MP camera.• http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html

YTV

02-06-2008, 02:31 PM

Isn't that what I said?

No that is not what you said.

This is what you said:

I believe that all the carriers share their 3g with each other.

Abster2core

02-06-2008, 02:57 PM

No that is not what you said. This is what you said:

"I believe that all the carriers share their 3g with each other."

That is what I said in post #122. However, I meant to have said that they share towers which I stated in my subsequent response to you in #126.

I never said sharing their network. I know they don't. I do know that they all lease from the same companies that build the towers. How many towers support more than one cell network, if they do, I don't know.

TBaggins

02-06-2008, 06:27 PM

The tests do show a very comparable display between the 2.75G iPhone and a 3G non-iPhone, but I would think a 3G iPhone would easily best other 3G smartphones. If it's great enough, Apple may use such a comparison in the keynote.

Yep (well, in cases where the non-iPhone phone has a pretty slow browser and cpu, anyway).
Not to mention that 3G is getting faster all the time. HSDPA is faster than UMTS, for example, and HSPA+ (or 'HSPA Evolved', or whatever they're going to call it) will be faster still than HSDPA.

On the EVDO side of things, Rev A was faster than Rev 0, and Rev B will be faster still.

EDGE (and GPRS) are looking slower and slower all the time. It's kind of like dialup vs broadband in that respect... dialup is never going to improve that much, but broadband will continue to do so.

.

TBaggins

02-06-2008, 06:47 PM

I believe that all the carriers share their 3g with each other. Exact coverage by each carrier is a little convoluted, but I suspect that it is a reflection of where they have services already available.

Perhaps a look at ATT and compare the others by specfic regions would help determine who is best and where. http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/

In the US, no, all carriers do not share their 3G with each other.

For one thing, there are technological issues. Verizon and Sprint use a 3G technology called EVDO, while ATT (and T-Mobile, which is just now beginning to get its 3G network up) uses UMTS/HSDPA. The two technologies are not compatible with one another.

Also, there can be issues with the roaming agreements, in that not every carrier automatically has a roaming agreement with all other carriers in all regions, even where technologies are compatible. It's more of a case-by-case and 'how-good-a-deal-can-be-struck' sort of thing.

.

TBaggins

02-06-2008, 06:53 PM

Hopefully this means a 32GB/3G for the next iPhone refresh.

It'd be nice, wouldn't it? ;)

But I wouldn't expect jack sheeite 'til June, at earliest. Even with Jobs pistol-whipping his engineering teams.

.

solipsism

02-06-2008, 06:59 PM

But I wouldn't expect jack sheeite 'til June, at earliest. Even with Jobs pistol-whipping his engineering teams..

I agree. We should also know about it because Apple will want to present it before the FCC does. Not 6 months ahead of time, but 6-8 weeks ahead for sure. I think it took 3 months last time.

I'm also wagering that a 3G iPhone could sell 10M in 6 months.

Ireland

02-06-2008, 07:33 PM

No GPS for me. I have a stand alone unit for that. The Google Maps locator is good enough for a phone. I don't need an costly chips that will add bulk to the iPhone and drain the battery in 30 minutes when it's on.

So don't turn it on, besides they aren't as costly as you would think. Obviously I wouldn't want one either if it added bulk, but that may be just another one of the reasons why they didn't add it "yet".

TBaggins

02-06-2008, 07:36 PM

I agree. We should also know about it because Apple will want to present it before the FCC does. Not 6 months ahead of time, but 6-8 weeks ahead for sure. I think it took 3 months last time.
It was six weeks last time... FCC approval for the iPhone was May 17, actual release, June 30.

I'm also wagering that a 3G iPhone could sell 10M in 6 months.
That seems pretty optimistic, especially considering that the iPhone's strongest market, the US, is entering a recession. :\

3G will definitely help quite a bit, especially in Europe, but I wouldn't expect 'magic bullet' -type numbers. Still, timely release of a 3G iPhone may well be the 'make or break' that determines whether or not Apple meets its '10 million iPhones sold in 12 months' goal.

.

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 01:56 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Apple's usual business model was that 6 months after releasing a product they would offer more for less. Not more for more. There was never a subsidize and then drop.

Who made this rule? Do you only come here to make up complaints?

But I wouldn't expect jack sheeite 'til June, at earliest. Even with Jobs pistol-whipping his engineering teams..

Possibly, we aren't entirely sure of the iPhone refresh rate, but I suspect Apple will be pretty aggressive with updates. I'm not expecting it anytime soon. Just long as it comes this year.

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 03:35 AM

Who made this rule? Do you only come here to make up complaints?

No, that's MY job, allegedly. Get it straight, Teno. :lol:

Possibly, we aren't entirely sure of the iPhone refresh rate, but I suspect Apple will be pretty aggressive with updates. I'm not expecting it anytime soon. Just long as it comes this year.

I like my track record with predictions so far, T. ;)

But I'd love it if Stevie would prove me wrong and bust one out by April or May. We can pretty much kiss February and March off already (for the US at least), considering that there's been no FCC approval yet for a 3G model.

.

aegisdesign

02-07-2008, 04:23 AM

Possibly, we aren't entirely sure of the iPhone refresh rate, but I suspect Apple will be pretty aggressive with updates.

Now that's funny.

The iPhone is essentially unchanged since it's introduction 8(?) months ago. When are you expecting Apple to be pretty aggressive?

I'm not expecting it anytime soon. Just long as it comes this year.

Ah, that kind of aggressive - about once in 18 months. :rolleyes:

Come on, the phone hardware was long in the tooth when it came out and the software updates so far have been pretty meh. It just won't be such a hot seller when it's 18 months old. They'll have to be a lot more aggressive either in pricing or updates.

Abster2core

02-07-2008, 06:04 AM

In the US, no, all carriers do not share their 3G with each other.

For one thing, there are technological issues. Verizon and Sprint use a 3G technology called EVDO, while ATT (and T-Mobile, which is just now beginning to get its 3G network up) uses UMTS/HSDPA. The two technologies are not compatible with one another.

Also, there can be issues with the roaming agreements, in that not every carrier automatically has a roaming agreement with all other carriers in all regions, even where technologies are compatible. It's more of a case-by-case and 'how-good-a-deal-can-be-struck' sort of thing.

.
Your comment it related to an old post that I hope was clarified in subsequent one, esp 142.

However, perhaps somebody can clarify the following.

Most cell towers in the US are built/owned by 4 independant companies, e.g., American Tower, Crowne, etc., and each lease them to all the cell phone companies
Most cell phone companies don't build/own cell towers, each lease them from all the cell tower companies
The cell companies' create their networks in part by leasing towers (which also maintain them)
Most of the major cell phone companies service the same major markets (cities)

Questions:
Can the same tower be used (shared) by more than one network?
Since the size of the network is dependent on the number of towers used, why don't cell phone companies, particularly the largest one, use those figures to support 'superior' coverage?
Or are all cell phone companies hooked to the same towers or the same number of towers?

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 10:23 AM

The iPhone is essentially unchanged since it's introduction 8(?) months ago. When are you expecting Apple to be pretty aggressive?

There have been three software updates with major functionality changes, the fourth coming in a couple of weeks. Now the storage has been upped to 16GB, currently no other phone offers that amount of internal storage. You call that unchanged?

The phone as it is has sold 4 million units in four countries limited to four carriers. In 8 months the iPhone has captured .9% of the worlds browser usage. Small number but more than any other phone, and just shy of some desktop broswers. In that time has captured 28% of the US phone market second only to RIM. With only one model has captured 3rd place in world smartphone marketshare behind RIM and Nokia, Both sell multiple models of smartphones. The iPhone by itself has more than likely sold as much or outsold any one of RIM or Nokia's single smartphones in the same quarter.

Come on, the phone hardware was long in the tooth when it came out and the software updates so far have been pretty meh. It just won't be such a hot seller when it's 18 months old. They'll have to be a lot more aggressive either in pricing or updates.

You keep talking about iPhone hardware and have never provided any evidence. The iPhone dissections revealed what was inside. The Samsung ARM chip was brand new. No phone provided 8GB of internal storage and still few do today. At the time no other phone used a 3.5" 160ppi screen, very few still do today. As Apple owns the multi-touch technology no one else has that, multi-touch is hardware as well as sotware. The only part you can really call "old technology" may be EDGE. The standard may be aging but Apple used a new radio chip.

Seeing as most phones don't provide much of this functionality or provide it as well. Which part of this exactly is old technology?

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 10:29 AM

No, that's MY job, allegedly. Get it straight, Teno

No you didn't say that, it was from Teckstud.

I like my track record with predictions so far, T.

Doesn't too much matter to me. I have an iPhone and enjoy it.

melgross

02-07-2008, 11:39 AM

N

Come on, the phone hardware was long in the tooth when it came out and the software updates so far have been pretty meh. It just won't be such a hot seller when it's 18 months old. They'll have to be a lot more aggressive either in pricing or updates.

Actually, Aegis, just because the phone doesn't have some dubious features you demand doesn't make the hardware "long in the tooth".

Features don't denote advances, they just mean that there are added features.

Phone technology has usually been slow to change. It's actually the iPhone that's causing other manufacturers to rush new features out.

I don't consider bloated feature sets that are clumsy to use to be advanced, just bloated.

It's the oft criticized MS Office syndrome, 80% of the features are only used by 10% of the users. The rest neither need nor want them, but are forced to have them for other reasons.

Ipods have been criticized for not having FM, but almost no one cares, or would use it anyway, so the iPhone is said to lack features. Who cares except a very small minority?

BRussell

02-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Now that's funny.

The iPhone is essentially unchanged since it's introduction 8(?) months ago. When are you expecting Apple to be pretty aggressive? Considering that they keep on confidently predicting those 10 million sales, I'd say it's a good bet that the iPhone will see some aggressive revisions soon. You're saying that since they haven't aggressively updated the iphone yet, they never will? That's highly illogical.

aegisdesign

02-07-2008, 12:21 PM

There have been three software updates with major functionality changes, the fourth coming in a couple of weeks. Now the storage has been upped to 16GB, currently no other phone offers that amount of internal storage. You call that unchanged?

No, they've had 3 bug fix releases to add features which should have been there in the first place. Bumping the storage space is a minor change also. YouTube videos and iTunes in Starbucks - meh!

I'm hoping the SDK update in Feb brings some better software like a ToDo list for one, preferably tied to Leopard's event/todo storage so it works with CulturedCode's 'Things (http://culturedcode.com/)' too. How can they miss out one of the few things that actually would be handy to carry around with you?

Oh, and I want ssh too, but I realise that's of limited general interest. ;)

The phone as it is has sold 4 million units in four countries limited to four carriers. In 8 months the iPhone has captured .9% of the worlds browser usage. Small number but more than any other phone, and just shy of some desktop broswers. In that time has captured 28% of the US phone market second only to RIM. With only one model has captured 3rd place in world smartphone marketshare behind RIM and Nokia, Both sell multiple models of smartphones. The iPhone by itself has more than likely sold as much or outsold any one of RIM or Nokia's single smartphones in the same quarter.

For each of your selectively chosen stats there's plenty of counter stats. It's good to see the USA finally is picking up with smartphone sales but as ever it's low hanging fruit if you pardon the pun - no competition and in walks Apple. Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.

You keep talking about iPhone hardware and have never provided any evidence. The iPhone dissections revealed what was inside. The Samsung ARM chip was brand new. No phone provided 8GB of internal storage and still few do today. At the time no other phone used a 3.5" 160ppi screen, very few still do today. As Apple owns the multi-touch technology no one else has that, multi-touch is hardware as well as sotware. The only part you can really call "old technology" may be EDGE. The standard may be aging but Apple used a new radio chip.

Which is explicitly why I said the PHONE hardware was ancient. The rest of the hardware is pretty cool, hobbled by shit phone hardware. It's like releasing a MacBook Pro with an ATi Rage 128 chipset.

Actually, Aegis, just because the phone doesn't have some dubious features you demand doesn't make the hardware "long in the tooth".

I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera. :D

Phone technology has usually been slow to change. It's actually the iPhone that's causing other manufacturers to rush new features out.

I don't consider bloated feature sets that are clumsy to use to be advanced, just bloated.

It's the oft criticized MS Office syndrome, 80% of the features are only used by 10% of the users. The rest neither need nor want them, but are forced to have them for other reasons.

I agree but in this case the iPhone has those features - ie. a radio chip and a camera - they're just poor implementations for such an expensive phone.

IMHO you're better off now buying an iPod Touch since they added all the useful stuff out of the iPhone and the phone part of the iPhone is better provided by a £50 no contract camera phone.

Considering that they keep on confidently predicting those 10 million sales, I'd say it's a good bet that the iPhone will see some aggressive revisions soon. You're saying that since they haven't aggressively updated the iphone yet, they never will? That's highly illogical.

No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 02:12 PM

No, they've had 3 bug fix releases to add features which should have been there in the first place.

Come on Aegis you are going way out of way reaching for criticism. Bug fixes are when something doesn't work correctly. So far the major functions on the iPhone have worked fine.

Much of the new functionality wasn't even available when the iPhone was first introduced.

How can they miss out one of the few things that actually would be handy to carry around with you?

Yeah ToDo's is absolutely required of any phone...

For each of your selectively chosen stats there's plenty of counter stats. It's good to see the USA finally is picking up with smartphone sales but as ever it's low hanging fruit if you pardon the pun - no competition and in walks Apple.

I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."

Penetration of smartphones in Europe may have happened faster than in the US. But actual use of them beyond phone calls and texting has been no faster.

Which is explicitly why I said the PHONE hardware was ancient. The rest of the hardware is pretty cool, hobbled by shit phone hardware.

You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?

No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.

I don't know when they will update the phone. I'm just saying they will do it.

I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera

Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 02:28 PM

Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.

Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 03:20 PM

Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.

It's pretty disappointing no matter how you slice it, Teno. I'd stop arguing that particular point... frankly, that ship has sailed. :\

Better pricing, 3G, MMS, better camera... it's all about solutions now, not trying to spin what are clearly disappointing Euro results.

I do still firmly believe that Apple CAN do well in Europe, with the right product and reasonable pricing. I just hope that the wait for said right product isn't too long.

...

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 03:35 PM

I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."

Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.

WM, in comparison, has only about a 6% worldwide share... and that's with many years in the market, and the backing and considerable resources of the richest tech company in the world. Its no wonder that outside of the US, WM is kind of a laughingstock.

Palm? 1.6% worldwide smartphone share.

You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US... more like "gnats dancing for Symbian's amusement" as one Euro friend of mine put it, though that is a bit harsh.

You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?

Well, that's the cool thing about the iPhone, the browser and ease-of-use are a leap ahead, so you actually want to browse the 'net on the iPhone... assuming your connection isn't crap slow, compromising the user experience.

Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say? ;)

Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.

No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes. Competing phones over there have 3G, MMS, and 3.2 and 5.0 megapixel cameras. Sure, Apple has some very key things that said competition does NOT have (OS X, Safari, visual voicemail), but, given the price, a mixed scorecard does not seem to be attractive enough for Euro users to stampede towards the iPhone... as sales so far have borne out.

What aegis, and a lot of Euro posters, appear to be saying is, get rid of the iPhone's obvious weaknesses and the thing will be a lot more of an attractive buy over there. Because if you've got the iPhone's advantages and 3G and MMS and a good camera, what's not to love? :)

The price would still be high, likely, even if Apple does get a bit more aggressive there- but I think enough ppl are willing to shell out for something that would inarguably be 'the best', as a good iPhone 2.0 would be.

And besides, who are you to decide whose complaints are legitimate and whose are bitching? The world does not love a forum bully, Teno. Aegis' comments are every bit as legitimate as your own. :\

...

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 03:51 PM

Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.

Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.

I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera. :D
I agree but in this case the iPhone has those features - ie. a radio chip and a camera - they're just poor implementations for such an expensive phone.

IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?

No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.

I think Apple would be very foolish to wait until the end of the year to update the iPhone in a major way. The Asian launch and good Euro sales practically require an iPhone 2.0... that's where we're at, and I'm sure Apple is aware of it. The capacity update is great as far as it goes, but by itself, is more of a stopgap than anything else.

...

TenoBell

02-07-2008, 04:26 PM

Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.

I was only talking about the US.

You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US.

Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say.

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes.

"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "

Carniphage, Sheffield England

"I, like many iPhone users have found this is the first phone where I have explored 'every' feature on the device and when more features are added i'll have already learnt the device inside out so I'll get to know all of the new features in depth too. It's one of those things Apple have always done right. They understand the balance between functionality and clutter. The balance between Form and Function."

Dazabrit, UK

"All in all a stunningly beautiful and "truly revolutionary" handheld device (it's not just a phone) with a few very noticable but very fixable oversights.I have to admit it, it's hard not to love the iPhone once you have really used it.
Now excuse me while I go touch the future."

Ireland, Ireland

GregAlexander

02-07-2008, 05:02 PM

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G.

I find it interesting how many articles said something like
"Wow, how did they get it so small and sleek"
followed immediately by "Pity it's not 3G".

And very few articles really put the 2 together. I mean, it's a no brainer to want a 3G iPhone but with the same size and battery life as the current iPhone... I'd love one.

So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 05:42 PM

So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?

'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:

Blackjack II: (3G smartphone)
Weight 4.09 oz (116 g)
Dimensions 4.48" x 2.39" x 0.51"

iPhone:
Weight 4.8 oz (136 g)
Dimensions 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46"

So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G. 8-)

Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.

What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank.

.

TBaggins

02-07-2008, 05:55 PM

I was only talking about the US.

In that case, I would agree with you. But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.

Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.

Again, its all about user experience... Safari is a great first step, but you need to mate it to a decent data connection. GPRS isn't it, and thats what many Euros are stuck with if they're mobile and do not have a 3G-capable phone. And those Euros have been voting with their pocketbooks.

"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "

etc. etc.

That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.

And of course, we have the slow Euro sales to back that up.

I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price. :(

.

aiolos

02-08-2008, 12:20 AM

Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.

I was referring to the biggest one, cause that's the only one I'd get. So the price for the biggest size rose 100 bucks, but w/e, not like it matters, I'll wait til the 32 GB is cheaper :)

On the other hand, if they were selling the 32 GB for 399, I'd be in for one now 8-), but I can wait, cause it seems like you're always waiting with Apple :lol:

aegisdesign

02-08-2008, 02:55 AM

Come on Aegis you are going way out of way reaching for criticism. Bug fixes are when something doesn't work correctly. So far the major functions on the iPhone have worked fine.

Much of the new functionality wasn't even available when the iPhone was first introduced.

I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?

Yeah ToDo's is absolutely required of any phone...

Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness. YouTube isn't.

I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."

So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?

The US market is basically Windows Mobile, Palm and RIM. RIM have done well to get where Palm should have been. Windows has just been shit all along. Symbian for whatever reason doesn't feature in the USA, largely because of your phone standards and reluctance from carriers to take Nokia's handsets it seems. I don't understand quite why exactly. There's cultural differences with candybars v flips (Here flip phones are for teens and chavs). However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.

That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.

In Europe, it's different. The phone hardware was a bit last year already, the software missing features we use more here, the carrier tariffs very high (though O2 have fixed that now) and the initial handset price astronomical. We've much more choice in handsets, carriers and tariffs. We've higher expectations in hardware features regardless of how nice the UI is.

Penetration of smartphones in Europe may have happened faster than in the US. But actual use of them beyond phone calls and texting has been no faster.

Really? Prove it. And I don't mean by browser share. That's not the only thing you use smartphones for.

You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?

For when you actually want fast data ?

It's not 3G that is stopping browser usage on the other phones, it's the poor browsers and until last year at least, the tariffs. That's all changed recently.

Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.

I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?

The SDK may fix that though if 3rd party developers add the features that I want in a phone that are currently missing from the iPhone.

Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.

There's two answers there...

1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.

2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.

Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.

And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.

IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?

Yes, I'd say so although the iPhone is pretty much priced way above anyone other than maybe the expensive fashion Nokias and Vertu phones. N95 8GB, HTC Tytans and Viewtys can be had for free now.

Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

The sales figures speak for themselves really. I'm only trying to explain them by giving you context.

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

It's entirely down to good browser software and the fact you're tied to a data plan, even if you're stuck on GPRS/EDGE. That's not usually the case with other phones. IME heavy 3G users use it by tethering their phone to a laptop too.

Abster2core

02-08-2008, 06:27 AM

'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:

Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.

What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank..

That is what Steve has been saying from the beginning.

But we must keep in mind, that talking on a phone is not the issue. Using the phone more, like watching movies is going to eat into available talk time. Using a phone for surfing the net more is going to eat into available talk time. Just using a phone more is going to eat into available talk time. And let's face it, all those things, they way you can do it and how you can do it is going to eat into available talk time.

More important, until the technology improves, 3g will just make you use your iPhone more. And if after everything else, the one thing you don't want to happen is not have enough available talk time when you need to use your phone to phone.

GregAlexander

02-08-2008, 06:32 AM

'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well. :)

Abster2core

02-08-2008, 09:54 AM

It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well. :)
Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.

Only an idiot would condone it.

TenoBell

02-08-2008, 12:54 PM

But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.

The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.

The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.

I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.

What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.

What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.

That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.

That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.

I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.

The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.

TenoBell

02-08-2008, 01:34 PM

I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?

Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.

The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.

Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness.

Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.

Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.

So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?

No I wasn't really saying they were good. Only that they were entrenched competition.

That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.

I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.

However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.

I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.

I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?

Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.

1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.

2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.

Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?

Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.

And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.

Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.

TenoBell

02-08-2008, 01:45 PM

So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G

I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.

The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.

The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone

The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.

The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.

This all makes a huge difference in battery life.

GregAlexander

02-08-2008, 03:39 PM

Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.

Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.

Only an idiot would condone it.

Take it easy, I'm not an idiot or a liar. If not to show a simple respect, do it to reinforce your argument by responding to the issue rather than attacking someone.

solipsism

02-08-2008, 03:44 PM

Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.

I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.

TenoBell

02-08-2008, 04:10 PM

GregAlexander

02-08-2008, 05:44 PM

That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.

Exactly! :)

Mimieux

02-10-2008, 02:31 AM

I am from SE Asia and I am eagerly awaiting its release here. Last year I bought an iPod touch and am enjoying it. I like the multi touch screen feature very much that I badly want a cellphone with that feature. :grumble:

aegisdesign

02-10-2008, 04:07 AM

That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.

Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.

aegisdesign

02-10-2008, 05:00 AM

Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.

Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe.

The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.

But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.

I really don't consider these major feature updates. You might I guess having not had them for years already. What puzzles many people is they're spending time on secondary features when the phone's main features were lacking. Poor SMS, No MMS, Poor camera, No Video capture, No voice recording. Maybe if they had a todo list feature they could organise their development priorities correctly? :D

Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.

Some features though have to be done by Apple. No 3rd party is going to hack full IMAP support into Mobile Mail or add photo/video editing into the camera app for instance. We'll see when the SDK arrives as to how much of it is a private API and what isn't and also the licencing terms. I really hope they don't make developers sign their apps through an expensive signing policy or it'll stifle 3rd party open source development. I may start writing apps myself. I've a few I'd miss on my current phone which would be simple candidates to get my feet wet in iPhone development.

Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.

For about 5 minutes. I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.

I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.

Nokia and SE *have*. Symbian has about 80% of the European market. Why the carriers haven't picked up these handsets for the US puzzles me. Some of it is being GSM only and also in the USA you go nuts for chiclet keypads like the Blackberry and Palm or QWERTY pads like the big HTCs. Here we don't so much. We've a much wider range of smartphones.

IIRC the Nokia CEO said a few years back that they didn't understand the USA. They built phones for Europe, for how they wanted phones, which is why they didn't build flip phones. Apple sometimes do this the opposite way around where Apple don't think of how Europe works. eg. European keyboards having keys in the wrong place, AppleTV not having SCART or any content, iPhone missing key European features and US style pricing structures.

I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.

Yep. That's what I said. Here on the other hand it's Apple and their carriers that are holding back sales of the iPhone by pricing it out of reach and restricting it.

Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.

Although you're spending much more time than I am defending it.

I need a new phone soon to replace the P910i which is looking a little battle worn after 4 years. I've tried a few, including the P990 (too buggy) and N95 (no touch screen). I love the iPhone UI and Safari but it's missing some features I need that would require me still having to carry another phone. I also think it'd be silly to buy a phone that isn't 3G in 2008. Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.

Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?

It's not getting through to you yet is it?

Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.

Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.

90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition. You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader. Here it's not so small a niche and they've got competition from Symbian, who are like Apple in the MP3 market. Here, Apple managed to release a Zune.

Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.

Yep. Has to be good for everyone. Apple entering the market has stirred up a stagnant market and I really hope the Symbian, Microsoft, RIM and even Palm are raising their game to match.

GregAlexander

02-10-2008, 05:13 PM

Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.

Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?

Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).

(not a rhetorical question.. genuinely wondering. If I get a chance I'll look myself, just figure you must know to have such a self assured answer)

edit: BTW - no argument that Apple could 3G technologies are getting smaller & more power efficient - Apple could release a 3G iPhone in the next few months of the same size. I'm just saying that in the balance of designing the iPhone, a year ago Apple said 3G wasn't worth it, mostly (or all) due to extra size.

solipsism

02-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?

Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).

These expensive, oft compared phones to the iPhone also don't have 3G:— LG Prada KE850
— RIM BlackBerry Curve 8300
— RIM BlackBerry Pearl 8100

Note: If there are newer ones that have 3G, then please post them. I'm merely posting info based on data ferreted from Google searches. Please don't mention the Meizu M8, it doesn't exist.

melgross

02-10-2008, 06:04 PM

I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.

There is no room left inside. That's been documented.

But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.

Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.

This goes for GPS as well.

solipsism

02-10-2008, 06:11 PM

There is no room left inside. That's been documented.

But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.

Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.

This goes for GPS as well.
My comment about "current dimensions" was regarding maintaining the same battery life with a 3G chipset, as aopposed to making it thicker with a larger battery or keeping it the same size while reducing the usage time. I have no doubt that a 3G chipset could be wedged in there... especially now.

Personally, I'd take one three times as thick and heavy if it meant that it would include 3G and the additional space would be all battery. I rarely use my iPhone for calls, it's all Mail and Safari.

Sidenote: For the first time I'm feeling the woes of not having Flash on the iPhone. I'm into FaceBook's Sracbulous game but can't play it on the iPhone. It's the perfect game while roaming.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 03:06 AM

Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe. But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.

Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?

I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.

Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.

Poor SMS

You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?

No MMS

I don't care

Poor camera

I've got a real camera and don't care.

No Video capture

Video recordings from phones look like crap.

No voice recording.

I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.

Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.

Hhmm, you have to be at the very tip of the pyramid on Maslows hierarchy of needs to get to a phone causing you that much problem.

Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.

At this point Apple does not expect to sell and likely could not supply 18 million phones a quarter. The few hundred thousand only reflect the number of iPhone customers on O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. This numbers does not reflect over all iPhone sales.

90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition.

About half of the iPhones are in the USA.

You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader.

Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.

Apple managed to release a Zune.

The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.

Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 05:56 AM

I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.

Actually, I don't even remember reading such a response. I must've gotten bored of your 'Apple marketing department' talking points in whichever thread that was and wandered away. Sorry. ;)

The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.

The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone

The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.

The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.

This all makes a huge difference in battery life.

You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.

And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.

One thing we can say pretty much for certain is that lower power-draw 3G chipsets have already showed up. If you wish to be a stickler for a (non-)apples to apples comparison, note that the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time compared to the Blackjack I's 3 hours. And the screen size, cpu, and other power-using functionality isn't hugely different between those two models.

The one major difference is that the 'Jack II has about 40% more battery capacity, but that alone doesn't seem to come near explaining such a huge improvement in talk time (a 133% improvement over the original Blackjack).

So, where is the rest of the improvement coming from? Well, a more power-efficient chipset/better power management would seem to be about the only thing that could reasonably explain it... unless Samsung found a way to stuff an incredibly tiny hamster and treadmill into the case.

Its funny... I remember when defenders of Apple's 2.5G strategy said, back at the US launch, "3G? You do realize that 3G smartphones only have 2-3 hours of battery life, right?". Well, not anymore, baby. ;)

So, 3G chipsets have already gotten better power consumption-wise, as we can see, and it only took a few short months after the US launch. I think we can safely lay to rest any fears of a ginormous brick of a 3G iPhone, and stop using the battery life boogeyman as an excuse.

Even Jobs has said that he expects that energy efficient-enough 3G chipsets will be available later this year... though I suspect that he may be fudging that a bit, if I'm parsing my Steve-speak correctly (and my batting average there has been pretty good).

After all, Samsung has been enjoying the benefits of more efficient 3G chipsets since at least November (when the 'Jack II was released). You'd have to think that if Samsung could do it, Apple could too... except perhaps for the fact that Apple honestly thought they could skate through the Euro launch with 2.5G.

It's sad to see the poor Euro sales disabusing Apple of that notion... and me out of some of my stock value. :\

...

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 06:25 AM

[Re: poor iPhone SMS]You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?

Wow, that's quite a backpedal/reversal, coming from someone who's stated to me time and time again how worried they were that all the features on the iPhone be as user-friendly as possible, and who used that as an excuse why the iPhone has so many missing features (like MMS, voice-dialing, etc).

I don't care [about no MMS].

Yeah, well, the market doesn't care that you don't care, and they're voting with their pocketbooks over in Europe.

I've got a real camera and don't care [that the iPhone's camera isn't great]

Again, the Euro market doesn't care that you don't care. Other high-end phones over there routinely have 3.2 or 5.0 megapixel cameras, and the iPhone isn't competing well there.

Video recordings from phones look like crap.

Wow, talk about a defeatist outlook. Aside from the fact that there are a few high-end phones whose video recordings don't look like crap, wouldn't a proper attitude be that, if something is broken, Apple would be a company who'd be able to fix it?

I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.

I don't see that one as a dealbreaker, but it is something that you see even on cheap phones nowadays.

Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.

Even so, it is a pretty small portion of the market. Even with the recent growth spurt, smartphone sales are only 11% of the US market.

The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.

Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.

In the US, you're right, they're not the same. But in Europe, yeah, the iPhone is kind of a Zune, unfortunately. :\

.

tonton

02-11-2008, 06:39 AM

Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?
How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone? Write the whole thing down with a pencil then retype it and send?
I don't care [about no MMS]
Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
I've got a real camera and don't care.
So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 06:43 AM

The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.
Great, you take my point.

I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.

Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you. An 'anecdotal few' that love their iPhones is great, but doesn't count for much in the larger scheme of things. Euro sales are disappointing, no matter how you slice it. So what's not to get? :err:

What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.

Wow.... you've been told again and again that its all about user experience (and I find it hard to imagine that even Jobs himself would disagree in the end, since he's all about user experience, unless aesthetics or dollar signs get in the way), and you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?

Teno, teno, teno... time for you to enroll in the TBaggins School of Remedial Logic for the Terminally Obtuse. The sad thing is, I think even you know you're full of it on this one.

That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.

Sure. But the problem is, membership in the latter group seems quite a bit larger than in the former group, judging by the only metric Apple truly cares about... sales. :err:

The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.

So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple. :lol:

And of course, most of those 4 million sales weren't in Europe, too.

Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want. :err:

.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 12:00 PM

You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.

I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.

And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.

iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 12:25 PM

Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.

I think its fine that you love Apple products. But you have to put this all into context. Apple has been in the mobile phone business for 8 months, Nokia has been in the mobile phone business for over 20 years.

Jobs has said they will add software and design new phones. Which means if you really want an iPhone but don't want the current one. You'll have to wait patiently until they build the one you want.

I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.

These days email is less and less text based. Often graphics and pictures are as integral to the information as the text.

How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone?

Cut and paste would pretty much solve these problems. Apple has acknowledged this and said they are working on it.

Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.

On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.

So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.

The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 12:39 PM

I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.

Cool. ;)

iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.

I wonder, though, if the difference is as big as you make it out to be.

For instance, in notebooks, which, after all, have a much larger display than the iPhone (and unlike the iPhone, it's always on- the iPhone's cuts out during a call), the display is roughly 30 percent of the power draw. A lot, but far from the whole enchilada.

And the CPU? Well, is the iPhone's cpu always running full blast? I doubt it is during a call, since even much slower cpus seem adequate to that task.

Your points are well taken, but even in a 'Jack I to 'Jack II comparison, which is more your style, we can see that 3G chipsets have already gotten better on power. Given that, I just wonder what the hold up is over at Apple, since the main excuse Steve-o gives for no 3G yet is battery life, and Apple of course would LOVE to have its 3G model out ASAP, for a timely Asian launch and to improve thus-far poor Euro sales. :\

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TenoBell

02-11-2008, 12:50 PM

Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you.

The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.

you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?

I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.

So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple. Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.

No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 01:00 PM

I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.

Some of that may be driven by the structure of the plans in question, but I would agree that ppl are browsing more on the iPhone than competing smartphones. Which is to be expected, since Safari, a real web browser, is a nicer user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser. I've told you this before.

What you're missing, again, is that that's only half the battle... you still need a good connection to have a truly great user experience, and GPRS ain't it, unless you think a 28.8 modem is a great user experience. :lol:

iPhone data usage is high on the iPhone even without 3G? Great. But with 3G, data usage on the iPhone would be insanely great.

To think that 3G won't have a big impact on data usage is patently absurd. It'd be like saying that dial-up users use as much data as broadband users. They don't, both for reasons of practicality and of user experience. But I guess you can argue the point and look nuts. I'd kind of like that, as its been a rough day thus far and I could use the laugh. 8-)

On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.

Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number, and you've already got that info. Even with email systems that are based on your phone number ('2134332387@vzwpix.net', for example), you usually still need to know what carrier said person is on, and again, who the eff knows that for everyone you know? And who the eff would want to? :no:

The market's already spoken on this one, and it seems to like MMS, for practical reasons. But I guess Apple can keep trying to argue that email is the way to go, and keep losing sales. Ugh. :\

The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.

And the few ppl who care about getting the absolute highest-quality possible shot, bar none, will go with a seperate device for taking pictures. But everyone else will go, "Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone? After all, I am certainly PAYING enough for it. And I thought the idea of the iPhone was to be a multifunction device in the first place... iPod, Internet, and phone, all in one. Even your commercials hype that point. So NOW you're telling me 'Go carry a seperate camera?!?'. What exactly have you been smoking???".

:err:

No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.

The 'missing' iPhones are either unlocked (and thus distributed all over the world, not just in Europe) or are in inventory somewhere, whether in official channels or the gray market.

What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there." Because even if you add in unlockers and inventory, as Apple DID when it trotted out its '4 million sold' (actually, shipped) sales figure, Apple is still well below pace to hit its '10 million in 12 months' goal. :(

The Asian launch should help some, if its timely enough, as could the launches in Italy and Spain (though it should be noted that Italy is even more into 3G than the rest of Europe)... but at the same time, the iPhone's biggest market, the US, is entering recession. Not good. :no:

The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.

LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well. ;)

Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want. :\

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solipsism

02-11-2008, 01:14 PM

The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.
That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.

PS: haha Nice metaphor.

Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.
The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.

That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 01:20 PM

Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.

I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.

"A survey conducted by online usability and accessibility expert Webcredible has identified email as the most desired service for mobile phone users. When asked 'Which service would you use on your mobile/cell phone if speed & quality weren't an issue?', 33% stated that email would be their number one priority. Social networking followed closely behind with 25% of the votes.."

"Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone?

Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 01:50 PM

That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.

You've got to think longer term than two months, though.

What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.

The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.

Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job. MMS is just more convenient for a lot of ppl, since its phone number-based and that's the only piece of info you need.

That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.

Great. But I think you'll agree that a lot of ppl who send pics use MMS, even if you yourself do not. Ditto the camera.

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TenoBell

02-11-2008, 01:56 PM

What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there."

There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.

These numbers do not reflect the total demand for the iPhone in Europe only the demand for iPhone use on Orange, O2, and T-Mobile.

LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.

I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.

Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want.

What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way. You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else. Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.

I've said Euro sales are not exceptional. I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 01:57 PM

I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.

You're reaching. :err:

Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.

You're really reaching. :lol:

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solipsism

02-11-2008, 02:03 PM

You've got to think longer term than two months, though.

What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.
I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices. It's a stopgate that will make a year's worth of revenue in the interim and get people accustomed to the iPhone's UI. How often are these boards filled with people compaining that Apple selling x in the US.

When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS. Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 02:06 PM

You've got to think longer term than two months, though.

You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.

Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job.

This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.

and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe?

Underwhelmed in comparison to what?

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 02:11 PM

You're reaching.

You confuse me baggins. How is it reaching to site a survey that show what features people want to use? The point of the entire survey is to show what people want.

People don't generally buy a phone based on how well it takes a picture. Generally the more paramount benchmark is how well can I communicate with it.

What phone is as thin as the iPhone has 8/16Gb of storage and a point and shoot camera attached?

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 02:18 PM

There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.

Yeah, that's pretty much what "some are unlocked" would tend to mean. :lol:

I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.

Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.

What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way.

Sure. The 'reality' way. 8-)

You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else.

What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you? :err:

Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.

Well, aside from missing its sales goals, is 330k in sales really that great for a phone that is allegedly "five years ahead of the competition" (Jobs' words) in a market that is US-sized and has much higher mobile phone penetration than the US (in some countries, exceeding 100%)? :\

I think all the qualifications and factors on BOTH sides of the ledger were considered when making those targets.... and they were still missed. No use trying to spin that fact, it's more important to fix the problem than insist that its not a problem. :rolleyes:

I've said Euro sales are not exceptional.

If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.

I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.

I want Apple to be able to hit their worldwide goal (10 million iPhones in 12 months), and to do that, Euro sales are probably going to have to come up some.

We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually. :err:

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TBaggins

02-11-2008, 02:26 PM

I don't think it hurts the brand at all to sell an extra half million devices.

I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner. :\

You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.

When a 3G iPhone comes along I think it will be a bigger success than the 2.75G iPhone was in the US, even if it doesn't have GPS or MMS.

I agree that a 3G iPhone will be a sales success in Europe, but I think it may be overly optimistic to expect a 'bigger than US' -sized success. Europe is just a tougher, more sophisticated market, with a lot more options at the high-end of the market.

Though, as previously stated, it needs MMS. The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.

Agreed. 8-)

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solipsism

02-11-2008, 02:32 PM

I think it does hurt the brand over there to have a much-hyped iPhone launch that ends up being a bit of a yawner. :\

You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.

While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.

We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 02:33 PM

Yah, but Microsoft can at least say the Zune hits its sales goal, even as ridiculously low as it was. The iPhone in Europe can't say the same, it missed its' goals, with carrier after carrier and in country after country.

You think Zune hitting its sales goals and making no money are more impressive than the iPhone not hitting its sales goals and making lots of money?

What else would you call missing your targets in all three European launch nations? Miss, miss, and miss. 0 for 3. This is a good thing, to you?

The point of everyone doing any of this is for money. No one in the financial world is overly concerned about the iPhone and its sales goals because it made money. Sales goals are just a prediction of how much money can be made.

We can talk about how Apple "making a profit" in a particular market is enough, but honestly, that's small ball. I think an aggressive, intelligent company can see what it could sell in a particular market if it had the right approach and product for that market, and anything less than that is money left on the table. Quite a LOT of it, in this case, actually.

Making a profit is everything. That is the whole reason for doing all of this, not hitting sales goals. You don't have to sell as much as everyone else if you are able to sell your product for more money than they are able.

If by 'not exceptional' you mean lackluster or sub-par, then I'd say you've got it.

This is only based on hype. iPhone did not live up to its hype. But once it comes down to the reality. The iPhone made Apple lots of money and carriers gained a lot of new subscribers. Its not as sexy as huge sales number but in the end is what truly matters.

You only have one chance to make a first impression, and Apple didn't make a very good one, by all accounts. The air of invincibility the iPhone could have had in Europe is definitely gone now... no more "Oh, I've GOTTA have that", instead we get "Well, its nice enough, but maybe I'd rather have a Viewty. Or a N95. Or N82. Or N73." Or whatever. It's very different from how the iPhone is thought of in the US.

You are taking this to the extreme, I haven't heard the Euro's saying any of this.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 02:37 PM

You have to start somewhere. Apple is thinking beyond its first few months. When the first iPhone was launched Jobs was said they were already working on the next iPhone.

Apple was thinking? Well, they were and they weren't. They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?

Yeahhhh... that part wasn't such good thinking, as results have borne out. :err:

This isn't a huge problem. People don't often change their email. And its simple to change the address in your address book.

You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.

Not to mention the inertia factor, as Solip put it:

The technology is still too rampant to be replaced with email at this time when there are a billion cell phones with MMS but without email capabilities.

... which is quite true.

Underwhelmed in comparison to what?

Underwhelmed in comparison to it UK sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its German sales target, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to its French sales targets, which were missed.
Underwhelmed in comparison to US sales, which they are nowhere even remotely near.
Underwhelmed in comparison to Euro consumers' expectations, which were high due to the iPhone's hype, and then not really met by the actual product, which caused them to do a collective, "That's nice" and then walk on to buy something else.

Are you still ostriching this one, Teno? It is funny. :lol:

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TBaggins

02-11-2008, 02:42 PM

While the wireless data hardware is a yawner the UI and multi-touch interface is not. I think the more people play with it the more likely they will to ride out their contract and current phone for a 3G iPhone. I've read more a few "when it's 3G I'll buy one comments" here and elsewhere.

We are going to have to disagree here since there will be no way to quantify if Apple could have made more money in the long run had they held off on releasing the iPhone in the EU and waiting a year to swing deals with Orange, T-Mobile and O2.

I don't know that it would've been a year, more like 7 months, perhaps. I think Apple will have a 3G iPhone by June... if they're smart. 3G chipsets that are better on power have been out for a few months already.

I do agree with your "I've read more a few 'when it's 3G I'll buy one' comments" quote. I hear that all the time, both on the 'net and when talking to my European friends. In fact, my new brother-in-law is British... and my brothers and I will be introducing him to the glory that is American tackle football. ;)

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solipsism

02-11-2008, 02:45 PM

In fact, my new brother-in-law is British... and my brothers and I will be introducing him to the glory that is American tackle football. ;).

I'm a Yankee who much prefers his fütbol over his football.

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 03:39 PM

They're working on a new model, which is great, but the part where they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers for much of the Euro market missing?

The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.

You can quibble all you like, but you can't argue ppl into using an alternative technology when they have something that already fills the need and works well for them... in this case, MMS.

Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.

Underwhelmed in comparison to it sales targets, which were missed.

You are only looking at that one metric. Sales targets are only a guide and not the important indicator of sales. Once you can look at a product like the Zune and say it met it sales projections but made no money, that pretty much discredits the overall worth of sales projections as a measurement of success. You can only cling to this one thing because it is all you have that supports your assertion that iPhones sales were poor.

You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 03:52 PM

The warmed over model that has made Apple a half a billion in revenue in 8 months. A half billion that was not there last year.

Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term, far as Europe goes. Though 330k Euro iPhones sold times its asking price is nowhere near "a half a billion" dollars.

Well I'm citing survey's made. You are only citing your own opinion.

If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful stuff that you should've shared with me. :lol:

You are only looking at that one metric.

I am looking at that metric because I'm an investor, and investors look at metrics like whether a company and its partners miss or make their own sales goals.

The scary part? Companies nearly always put forward goals that are very conservative and which they're sure to make. Yet Apple and its partner carriers still missed said goals. That's bad, regardless the spin. :no:

You keep dodging and ignoring new mobile subscribers, revenue, and profit (which is what sales projections are meant to measure) because they do not support that iPhone sales were poor. The sales projection show that iPhone sales were not stellar but not necessarily poor either.

More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone. :lol:

Seriously Teno, you'd have a lot more credibility if you'd quit sticking your head in the sand and come out and straight admit, Yes, Euro iPhone sales have been poor, and that should be fixed ASAP. But you'd rather spin, spin, spin than be about the problem and how to resolve it.

Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.

Do you have such figures? Exactly how much profit did the iPhone make or not make in Europe, all costs considered? I'm waiting. Notwithstanding, of course, that Apple could certainly make more revenue and more profit, if only the iPhone were doing better in Europe than it is.

http://compoundthinking.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/istock_000002694919xsmall.jpg
But... but... at least the iPhone is PROFITABLE in Europe! I think!

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TBaggins

02-11-2008, 04:00 PM

I'm a Yankee who much prefers his fütbol over his football.

Your American privileges are hereby revoked! Report directly to Guantanamo!

j/k :lol:

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GregAlexander

02-11-2008, 04:28 PM

they thought that they could do well in Europe with a warmed-over 2.5G US model at the prices that were being asked and with several key features that were deal-breakers

I blame the high price more than anything.

Apple wants to avoid people thinking of the iPhone as a "freebie". I know many people with $800 phones that they got for free on a plan. They largely think that if they break it somehow they'll just grab a new (free) one. That kind of thinking with the iPhone may have got 10 times the sales (at a profit margin set by the network (not Apple) like regular phones) and simultaneously would have significantly squashed iPod sales.

Apple also wanted to make sure it was an "always connected" device for email & data (ie no hidden charges).

The result - they chose to charge a high upfront price with slightly above-average monthly costs (in the US) but which included unlimited data. Not a bad deal, but still a slight premium offering. In Europe, they chose a more expensive upfront cost with very high monthly costs (finally coming down on O2!)... it simply wasn't worth it, 3G or not.

For a small while in Australia we had one network that refused to subsidise phones. They offered higher upfront costs on all phones and cheaper calls. Unfortunately people simply went to the free phones on the other networks, so the experiment was dropped. I think Apple could have taken this ground - providing a premium handset (even charging more) but attached to monthly costs that are quite cheap... they could have changed the model, and fit with a Mac metaphor of paying more upfront but cheaper in the long run.

Ah well.

solipsism

02-11-2008, 04:34 PM

Your American privileges are hereby revoked! Report directly to Guantanamo!

Free room, board, good health care, a tropical environment and lots of soccer playing detainees. I'll go!

or

My "American priviledges" were revoked the day the Patriot Act was signed. (is that too political for this forum?)

TenoBell

02-11-2008, 04:39 PM

Sure. Quite possibly at the cost of a greater sum of revenue in the long-term.

Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.

Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.

If you honestly believe that anywhere near as many pics are sent via email on cellphones as are sent via MMS, you are smoking some powerful herb that you should've shared with me.

I never said anything like that. I've only cited survey's that showed people request email as the most desired feature on a phone.

More like I keep ignoring your attempts to change the subject. I'm half expecting to see a chart from you about the relative importance of good Zen vibes caused by the iPhone.

Lets break this down like we are in the 5th grade. Apple made the iPhone to make money. The carriers provide mobile communications service to make money.

Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.

Far as 'profitability' goes, well, exactly how much money are we talking about, or are we just pulling stuff out of our hindquarters? I noticed that in the conference call, neither Cook nor Oppenheimer were willing to break out European iPhone sales, much less whether it was profitable or not over there.

Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 08:41 PM

Free room, board, good health care, a tropical environment and lots of soccer playing detainees. I'll go!

or

My "American privileges" were revoked the day the Patriot Act was signed. (is that too political for this forum?)

Too political? Maybe. But it's true, nonetheless.

Messrs Bush and Cheney can't leave office soon enough. What a disaster they've been. Even my Dad, a diehard conservative, curses and changes the channel whenever Bush comes on now. :err:

...

TBaggins

02-11-2008, 08:53 PM

Every year that Apple updated the iPod it sold exponentially more the next year than it did the previous. I would imagine Apple has learned from this and has intention of doing the same with the iPhone.

Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really. And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.

Apple knows what they are doing in their labs and we don't. Which is why Apple may be so confident in its 10 million sales and we are not so sure.

Yah, and I'm sure Apple originally thought that they were going to do a whole lot better in Euro than they have. They also probably thought the AppleTV and G4 Cube were going to do gangbusters biz as well. Miss, miss, and miss. :err:

I'm not saying that to rub it in, Teno, but to illustrate a point... Apple's very good, but no one bats a thousand. Not even Steve-o. And arrogance and not listening to what a market wants will drag any company's batting average down. :\

Apple and carriers sell iPhone. Carriers project a number of sales, sales are not met. Apple reports hundreds of millions in revenue. Carriers report an increase of long term subscriptions which increases revenue. Everyone is satisfied. Except Baggins who only focuses on carrier sales projections not being met.

Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh. :wow:

Sure, the impending US recession is a lot of it, but poor iPhone sales sure did not help, especially since prospects for the iPhone were a lot of what was driving the stock price upwards throughout '07.

Of course it was nothing to brag about. Doesn't mean it was poor just not as exciting as US sales. How can 350,000 at 269 pounds and 399 Euros in two months be unprofitable?

Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.

So, I'm gonna pull a Teno and say, "Where's the official numbers, Teno?". Lalalalala, can't HEAR YOU without official numbers. :lol:

.

TenoBell

02-12-2008, 02:53 PM

Sigh. Teno, you've been told before to stop re-fighting the iPod war. Its not the same situation or market at all, really.

No you took my point in the wrong way. I'm not talking about markets. I'm talking about Apple's design culture. The reason the iPod has been so dominant isn't simply because of an immature mp3 market its because of Apple's unyielding culture of design. Which not only applies to the iPod but all Apple products.

Apple has become great at redesigning, refreshing, and reenergizing sales of Mac's as well as iPod and will bring that exact same design philosophy to the iPhone.

And, actually, iPod sales were flat year-over-year recently.

Not entirely, as usual you only tell part of the story. iPod sales were not flat they grew by 5% which is far less than the 50% growth of 2006. By contrast 2006 did not have the iPhone to cannibalize iPod sales either.

Revenue is a different story, revenue between 2006 and 2007 remained relatively the same. The reason is because many of the iPods sold in 2007 were the more expensive iPod Touch. 2007 Apple averaged $181 in revenue vs $163 in 2006

Sigh. And investors, who notice that Apple's iPhone growth story all of a sudden isn't what they thought it was, and then hammer the stock, causing it to nosedive and take about $50 billion of Apple's market cap with it. Duh.

I have not seen any financial expert place Apple's stock price and iPhone sales in the same sentence. Only you do.

Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro profit numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.

Apple did not release official revenue numbers from Europe. But lets see......

190,000 @ 269 pounds + 90,000 @ 399 Euros + 70,000 @ 399 Euros = $179,520,000 USD

Apple of course would not have made all of this 179 million in revenue. Most of these phones were told through carriers or retailers and VAT is included. But Apple I would imagine made the lions share of it.

Adjei

02-14-2008, 07:23 AM

iphone is a dud, another of Apple's failed products along with the MBA, Apple TV, and Cube.

solipsism

02-14-2008, 07:28 AM

iphone is a dud, another of Apple's failed products along with the MBA, Apple TV, and Cube.

Great post!

Adjei

02-14-2008, 07:47 AM

Great post!

Isn't that what some people want to hear ? :lol:

melgross

02-14-2008, 08:12 AM

Isn't that what some people want to hear ? :lol:

It depends on whether you are serious or not. Some people haven't got a clue. Are you one of those?

TBaggins

02-14-2008, 01:54 PM

No you took my point in the wrong way. I'm not talking about markets. I'm talking about Apple's design culture. The reason the iPod has been so dominant isn't simply because of an immature mp3 market its because of Apple's unyielding culture of design. Which not only applies to the iPod but all Apple products.

Apple has become great at redesigning, refreshing, and reenergizing sales of Mac's as well as iPod and will bring that exact same design philosophy to the iPhone.

Great design, and more importantly, a company having design in its DNA, are awesome advantages... it's a big part of why I use a Mac and own iPods. That said though, design, by itself, ensures little. You still have to listen to your customers.

Not entirely, as usual you only tell part of the story. iPod sales were not flat they grew by 5% which is far less than the 50% growth of 2006. By contrast 2006 did not have the iPhone to cannibalize iPod sales either.

Revenue is a different story, revenue between 2006 and 2007 remained relatively the same.

Yawn. Going from 50% sales growth to 5% is quite an amazing flattening out. Not perfectly flat, but close enough for rock n' roll. If you put a molehill next to a mountain, it tends to look flat. :lol:

And of course, as you stated, revenue was flat... perhaps even down, if inflation is taken into account. So we're quibbling over very little.

I have not seen any financial expert place Apple's stock price and iPhone sales in the same sentence. Only you do.

WOW... you're really out of the loop, aren't you? :wow: Nearly everyone who's an investor understands that much of Apple's stock price run-up during 2007 was due to the potential of the iPhone, and, unfortunately, much of the unwinding of Apple's stock price in '08 has been due to investors being nervous about the iPhone's growth prospects going forward. This isn't even argued seriously by anyone with skin in the game that I know.

But, I know you won't agree, and will try to blame the tremendous dip in Apple's stock price 100% on the slowing of the US economy (I agree that it was a contributing factor, but its far from the whole enchilada). I'm familiar with your mindset, so let's just cut to the chase, as this is how it would play out:

Teno: Apple is GOD! They DON'T EVER MAKE MISTAKES! It's all part of a MASTER PLAN!

Baggins: The stock price is in flames, Teno.

Teno: ECONOMY! Nothing else! PROVE it's something else!

Baggins: Well, here's a lot of quotes and links from various analysts explaining that...

Teno: THEY'RE JUST ANALYSTS! They KNOW NOTHING!

Baggins: Actually, as a group, and even sometimes individually, they have a lot of influence, and they impact the market in a pretty big way a lot of the time. And, more importantly, the investing community did seem to agree with them, and/or didn't like what they saw in the data (Euro iPhone sales below expectation thus far, no 3G model for awhile, iPod sales essentially flat year-over-year, growth prospects in the near- and medium-term not good, etc. etc.) as you can see by Apple losing, oh, I dunno... about $50 BILLION in market cap. That's quite a huge impact for "knowing nothing".

Teno: Oh YEAH?!? Well, HERE'S some links of my own! THOSE analysts don't agree with you!

Baggins: Oh, you mean guys like Wu and Munster? Yeah, the Apple cheerleader analysts would rate the stock a 'Buy' even if Jobs held a press conference saying he was switching to the Amiga OS and Cupertino HQ was in flames.

Teno: Oh, so YOUR analysts are right, and mine are WRONG, is that it?

Baggins: Yeah, pretty much. Its called 'reality'. Experience it sometime. Duh.

:lol:

Apple did not release official revenue numbers from Europe [Baggins: Actually, I was more interested in PROFIT numbers Teno, since you keep saying over and over that Apple's making HUGE profits on the iPhone in Europe, but never provide official numbers.] But lets see......

190,000 @ 269 pounds + 90,000 @ 399 Euros + 70,000 @ 399 Euros = $179,520,000 USD [that's REVENUE, Teno, not profit --B]

Apple of course would not have made all of this 179 million in revenue. Most of these phones were told through carriers or retailers and VAT is included. But Apple I would imagine made the lions share of it.

Teno, Teno, Teno... what did I say earlier?:

Well, let's stop guessing and see some Euro PROFIT numbers then, Tenerino. After all, you adamantly refused to believe me when I said, prior to the release of 'official numbers', that Apple's Euro iPhone sales were slow. Then official numbers did come out, of course, confirming what I said.

So, I'm gonna pull a Teno and say, "Where's the official numbers, Teno?". Lalalalala, can't HEAR YOU without official numbers.

Re-quoted for Truth. 8-)

Edit- Look Teno, it's always fun to argue with you, because you are my favorite cuckoo-crazy-bananas-Apple shill,( :lol: ) but honestly, it does get a bit old. Unlike guys like Solip and Mel, you seem incapable of formulating any real argument beyond "Apple is always right". Its kind of like arguing with an Apple press release. Mel, Solip, and others, at least, bring something more to the table than that, even if I disagree with them sometimes.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't need to hear the Apple party line too much because I already know the Apple party line quite well. I think I used to be, like you, quite rabidly pro-Apple (still am, I guess, just in a different way), and blind to the possibility that Apple could ever be wrong, either in plan or execution. And it was a mindset that served me well during Apple's darkest days in the mid '90s, when I would routinely help shoot down hordes of Windows trolls on various boards. You really DID need to be a zealot back then. :\

But that was then, this is now. Apple's survival isn't in question, and it doesn't NEED zealots or shills anymore. What it needs is people to tell it like it is, even if the result is not always flattering to Apple. 'Yes men' attitudes don't help a healthy corporation, they drag it down.

You will deny it until doomsday, but nothing changes the fact that, yes, Apple has definitely made some mistakes in Europe regarding the iPhone. I am hoping they fix them as soon as possible, and do not repeat them in Asia, so I say something... because I care about Apple. If I HATED Apple, then I would say, "Oh, don't worry, everything's great, don't change a darned thing, love ya." :lol:

Maybe what I'm saying will sink in, maybe it won't. But I hope you understand me a bit better now. ;)

Oh, and I'm done with the thread. Shill away to your heart's content. :D

.