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View Full Version : Apple TV Take 2: an in-depth review (part 1): what's new


AppleInsider
02-13-2008, 09:09 AM
Apple is keeping itself busy. Along with the 10.5.2 update to Mac OS X Leopard and a new reference release of Aperture 2.0, the company quietly made available the free new "Take Two" software upgrade for Apple TV on Tuesday. Here's a look at how Apple TV compares as a living room media player and source of HDTV content, what's new in the software upgrade, and how well the device achieves its goal of bringing iTunes media to home theaters in its second try at inventing itself.

From a non-blazing 1.5 Mb DSL connection, the software update download takes about twenty minutes, and then takes another ten minutes to install. The update actually includes three software upgrades:
An EFI firmware update.A firmware update for the Apple TV's HDMI video hardware that enables 1080p output through upconversion.The new Take Two menus and interface with support for HD downloads, rentals, AirTunes and more.
HD: 720p vs 1080p

Apple TV is essentially a low end Mac with a video card supporting 1280x800 resolution. The existing hardware will never be able to decode or output 1080p video in full native resolution. However, the new Take Two software enables 1080p output in the unit's HDMI subsystem to scale up its 720p content and deliver it as a 1080p signal to TV sets that support 1080p display.

This is similar to what upconverting DVD players do, although Apple TV can start with higher resolution content; Upconverting DVD players deliver the standard definition content on DVDs to HDTV sets as an HD signal. This doesn't invent new detail in the picture, but does deliver the best possible picture DVD can produce because it maintains a high quality signal to the set rather than delivering one that must be scaled up within the TV itself.

Apple TV plays back iTunes HD content, HD home videos, and HD podcasts all at 720p internally, but can deliver either a standard 720p signal or an upconverted signal to the HDTV set as 1080p. How noticeable this difference is in the picture displayed depends upon the quality of the video circuity in the TV being used. Many consumer oriented HDTV sets use cheap picture scaling and conversion hardware that will result in the Apple TV's new 1080p mode serving as a nice feature, as the TV won't have to handle the conversion itself.

Using a high quality HDTV set, we couldn't see any visible difference in using 1080p over 720p from Apple TV, even when looking up close and trying to find differences in the static frames of movies or in the unit's own menu titles. However, some cheaper HDTV sets might deliver a better picture using the 1080p signal setting. Rather than being excessively concerned about 720p versus 1080p, the main value added by Apple TV is its low cost delivery of easy to access HD content, both for rent and for free.



Apple TV versus HD Broadcast and Disc

HDTV and HD disc vendors are working hard to convince users that 1080p is the Only Real HD, and that 720p is far inferior, but for owners of sets smaller than about 50" the difference won't even be visible to anyone watching from ten feet away. Additionally, there is no 1080p content being broadcast. Broadcast HD often looks the best. Cable, satellite, and over the air providers, however, all deliver 720p or 1080i that often looks the least impressive because the providers employ strong data compression to shove as many channels of HD as possible through their pipes. Regardless of the nominal resolution used, high compression can result in blocky screen artifacts.

All HD broadcasts are not alike either; many sports events are broadcast using a higher quality signal with less compression, which makes for a very impressive picture, while other HD channels are heavily compressed to the point where their HD resolution becomes overshadowed by a compression artifacts. While pundits like to compare simple numbers, the real factor in enjoyable HD content is how well content providers balance their resolution format with compression settings that deliver a detailed, smooth, high quality picture. Every link of the HD pipeline--from the capturing camera to the transmission delivery, receiving set top box, and TV circuitry--has to be strong enough to deliver a picture that stands up to what the new HDTVs can produce.

Ignoring all those realities to obsess over the nominal resolution of a video signal does nothing to improve the picture users actually see. The HD disc market faces fewer problems than broadcasters because formats like Blu-Ray have a huge capacity and movies are mastered and optimized for picture quality rather than delivery efficiency. So far however, as noted in Why Low Def is the New HD, the market has demonstrated that most users are more interested in a wide screen display and a sharp picture at a reasonable price than in specification number details. Apple TV targets the current market demands to offer a product intended to deliver usable functionality rather than specification bragging rights.

HD vs Non-HD

While videophiles like to obsess over the numbers that make "real HD," the reality is that most TV watchers are so used to poor quality standard definition programming and that any improvement in picture quality is a dramatic change. Analog broadcast TV has long used a nearly square aspect ratio that is stretched out by non-square pixels that results in everyone on TV looking ten pounds heavier. It also has poor color and poor effective resolution, delivering an interlaced picture with roughly 200 to 400 lines of resolution.

Enhanced definition, 480p EDTVs presented improved picture processing and widescreen aspect ratios, and the current crop of HDTVs greatly improve the overall picture quality through an improved picture resolution of 720p or 1080p. Paired with iTunes' "near DVD" quality movies, the original Apple TV software delivered a decent picture on wide screen EDTV and HDTV sets, although its limited resolution 480p movies were no match for the new HD disc formats.

However, consumers haven't been buying the new HD disc formats, much to the chagrin of the companies working so hard to push them. In part, that's because of the format war between Sony's BluRay and Microsoft's HD-DVD, but the main reason why both formats have barely sold a million standalone units a year is the cost involved. Rather than investing in either new HD disc format, consumers have instead been buying upconverting DVD players, which allow them to watch their existing DVDs, as well as the wider variety of DVDs on sale and for rent, on their new widescreen HDTV sets without a significant enough difference in quality to push them toward getting an HD disc player.

Consumers' preference for spending their money on upconverted DVDs is good news for Apple's strategy with iTunes and Apple TV, which aims at delivering easier access to high quality HD content at a low price and without any subscription fees. How well has Apple done in delivering upon this premise?

Apple TV Reborn

In its first incarnation, Apple TV acted as a standard definition iPod appliance that could sync media from an iTunes PC on the same network, and upconvert the signal to widescreen EDTV and HDTV sets. Consumers had a number of reasons to pass on the product:
While the device had the inherent capacity to play HD quality video, Apple didn't provide any sources of HD content within iTunes.While it also had the hardware to deliver digitally encoded surround sound audio, the software didn't make it easy to coax out, and iTunes content only supported simpler Dolby Surround audio.The interface provided rough playback control using the IR remote, making it hard to accurately fast forward though a scene. All content on the device had to be selected and set up from iTunes on another computer and then synced over.
The new Take Two software solves issues with Apple TV's untapped hardware, greatly improves the overall interface usability, integrates the system directly with the iTunes Store for living room access to both purchased and free content, and adds a number of other new features. The new software transforms the unit to the point where its almost hard to talk specifically about new features; nearly everything is new. This really demonstrates the power of software to dramatically enhance the features of hardware; existing Apple TV users will be happy to find that their existing device not only sings with the new update, but that it also costs nothing to upgrade.

Apple TV's New Interface

The previous Apple TV interface borrowed heavily from Front Row, presenting menus of different kinds of content or functionality, each associated with a big icon: Movies, TV, Music, Podcasts, Photos, YouTube, and Settings. The new version presents a simplified navigation launch screen using a two column menu (below). The first column lists major feature categories, and the second column lists a submenu of related options.

After selecting a submenu option from the second column, the two column menu zooms out and drops you in a specialized interface customized to what you've selected to do. This seems confusing at first, because each submenu has its own interface style. It also seems like you are alternating between the old and new Apple TV interface menu styles, because the plainly textual launch menu shares little resemblance with the four other more graphically-oriented menu screens.



Submenus that present lots of options to browse from (such as the Settings menu or My Movies, Genres, and Trailers in the Movies menu) bring up a listing familiar to veteran Apple TV users, with a single long column of items to the right of a detail area that shows cover art, a synopsis and other details. Some of these menus present additional submenus in same style as the previous software version.



A second, new graphical selection menu screen style is presented for displaying live content from iTunes. Selecting Top Movies or All HD from the Movies menu (or selecting a listing from the Genres submenu) brings up a screen full of artwork graphics that can be used to rapidly browse and select items to bring up a full screen display of their related details and download options. Items in rows cycle in from the right similar to Cover Flow.



A third submenu style relates to searching. Movies, Podcasts, Music from iTunes can all be directly searched for using an alphabetical listing targeted by the remote as if entering your initials for a high score in Pac Man. Search results bring up smart listings that identify any word in the name of a movie, making it easy to find a title even if you can't remember the entire name (below).



Other submenus bring up specialized menus for setting up and using .Mac Web Galleries, Flickr albums, YouTube videos.

None of this is too difficult to figure out, but it does seems to result in a complex system of navigation menus, particularly for an Apple product. The two column quick launcher contrasting with the more conventional menus also seems a bit strange. However, Apple TV does a lot of different things, and it would seem difficult to simplify its menus further without also paring away some of those features. The quick launcher seems a bit faster than the old main menu with its large graphics, and clarifies the overall features well, making it easy to explore the device without needing to consult a manual on its new features.

On page 2 of 3:New in iTunes Integration; New in Podcasts; and New in Video.

New in iTunes Integration

The most obvious new feature in Apple TV Take Two is its direct integration with the iTunes Store. Whereas the original software was designed to work like an iPod that wirelessly synced with another computer's iTunes library, the new system now acts as an iTunes client itself. It doesn't even require any accompanying PC to use, expanding the market for Apple TV into one similar to a game console or Tivo, rather than just an expansion box for iTunes users.

If your system is already synced with iTunes on a PC, it should import your iTunes Store account settings automatically, allowing you to begin purchasing content right off the bat. If you set up the box new or use it without an iTunes PC, you just need to enter your iTunes account email and password. Once linked, you can connect to iTunes to download movies, music and other content directly.

The Settings menu also now presents a Downloads option to check for pending downloads that have been ordered but not yet obtained.

New in Podcasts

In addition to the highly touted HD movie rentals, iTunes TV, music, and music videos that can be purchased directly, iTunes integration also means you can directly download podcast content on demand for free, in addition to existing free YouTube and movie trailers (with a new selection now offered in HD) that the previous software supported.

Apple TV's migration from an "iPod for your TV" wirelessly tethered to iTunes to being a standalone Internet content browser changes everything in regards to podcasts. While users could already select podcasts in iTunes on their PC and manually set up rules to sync episodes to their Apple TV, the unit now acts as an on demand browser for podcasts, making Apple's vast podcast directory in iTunes even more useful.

Rather than being a way to subscribe to content feeds -- a model that makes sense for audio podcasts listened to from an iPod -- Apple TV's new podcast interface makes it easy to look up video content based on a whim of interest, with no preliminary setup required. This serves to make Apple TV an Internet version of TV; rather than needing to use a DVR to pan for gold from the river of channels offered by cable providers, Apple TV acts as a Google for podcasts, enabling new audiences to find and immediately jump to the programing they're interested in.

The rest of the industry is working to deliver IPTV, which adds some interactivity and menus to regular cable. Apple TV is essentially offering TVoIP, where users surf for content provided by any podcaster. Unlike YouTube, podcast content isn't restricted in length or content or quality, because the podcasters themselves host whatever they want to host. They can deliver HD versions of their content on any subject, and users can find it and download it at anytime without needing to schedule a Tivo-like recording for later playback.

Even more interesting is that Apple's podcasting efforts have encouraged open and interoperable formats that allow all the content submitted to iTunes to also work with other devices and systems. The future of podcasting seems to have the same wild potential as the open web had a decade ago in the mid 90s, when media giants were attempting to build and maintain their own proprietary online systems such as CompuServe, AOL, and MSN. Media giants are now working to remain in control of broadcast content and delivery; podcasting should similarly revolutionize TV, and Apple is leading that business in the living room with Apple TV.

New in Video

Outside of the new direct access to iTunes paid content and podcasts, Apple TV now offers output in the aforementioned 1080p format, in addition to the previous options of 720p and 1080i HD, standard 480p and 480i, the 50Hz equivalents for PAL users overseas, and the direct 1280x800 option for using the unit with a DVI monitor, as noted in Apple TV: Turn DVI into HDTV.

Apple TV also presents new options to turn on Closed Captioning for iTunes content that supports it, and to manually adjust its HDMI output. It's set by default to HDMI Auto but presents YCbCr, RGB High, and RGB Low as manually selectable options.

The other obvious new features in video are the ability to download HD movie trailers and rent HD movies. It can also present HD podcasts as long as they are published in a standard format the system can play. As noted above, the apparent quality advantage of HD involves more than a resolution setting; it is also dependent upon the amount and sophistication of the compression used. HD content from iTunes uses the highly efficient H.264 codec to deliver HD resolution in a reasonable file size that can be downloaded.

Even with ideal compression, HD still requires a lot of bits. On a relatively slow 1.5 Mb DSL broadband connection, downloading a two minute HD movie trailer took far longer than downloading the standard version, and playback usually didn't begin until the entire clip was downloaded. Unsurprisingly, downloading an HD or SD trailer from Apple TV looks the same and takes the same amount of time as doing so directly from from iTunes. Download times are directly proportional to the speed of your Internet connection. For example, the SD version of Casandras Dream, a 2:16 trailer, started fairly quickly over 1.5Mb DSL, taking 29 seconds from selecting it to it beginning playback. However, the HD version of the same trailer loaded for 4:38 before playing. That's a long time to wait for a movie trailer.

Even though the HD trailers appeared to download entirely before beginning playback, they were still likely to pause momentarily near the two minute mark on first playback. The SD version not only downloaded in less than a tenth of the time, but it also played through without any pauses. Using DSL, downloading HD video took long enough to be somewhat impractical. A faster connection makes a huge impact on wait times. SD content is very fast to begin watching, but HD movie downloads take about a minute with a fast 6Mb cable Internet connection and far longer with DSL, as long as a couple hours. If you plan on using Apple TV for HD, you'll need to have an appropriately fast connection to the Internet.

In terms of quality, the standard versions of movie trailers were watchable, but occasionally displayed the digital jitter artifacts common to iTunes videos. The picture compares well to digital cable, with areas of gradient color sometimes muted together resulting in a watercolor look, and some dark regions of the screen left looking noisy or with a jittery shiver. The sharpest details -- particularly white on black titles -- ranged from slightly noisy to distractingly muted. If you've watched iTunes video, you know what to expect because its the same thing.

In HD, the same clips had much less discernible jitters or noise, and were significantly more enjoyable to watch. The quality of encoding varied between movies (and studios) and the type of content presented. The affects of digital compression are most visible and irritating when the picture is changing rapidly. Some trailers with lots of rapid motion -- such as the jerky clips of constant panning around through explosions in Cloverfield -- resulted in difficult to watch video with obvious smearing and posterization, particularly in shadowed areas of dark gradients. Other Paramount movie trailers seemed to have similarly poor encoding, notably the dark Star Trek teaser.

At the same time, fast action sequences in the new Warner Bros. Batman movie, the Dark Knight, looked great even when paused and viewed critically up close. Thin black diagonal lines on a white background were clean and sharp (below top), close up scenes of Heath Ledger's Joker revealed sweaty curls of individual hairs and crumbling lines in his makeup (below bottom), and balls of fire in explosions were sharply defined. It is difficult to accurately represent the screen detail in photographs because of the moire effect. Preparing these screen photos for web publication also distorts the representation.





When paused and viewed up close, there were areas of the screen that appeared slightly noisy with some degree of mixed down looking compression in colors. When viewed from a normal viewing distance, the HD picture in most iTunes trailers was nearly always excellent.

Universal's Doomsday trailer looked fine, although it doesn't tempt in terms of content. Disney's WALL•E also looked great, with high quality detail in fast action scenes and minimal banding even in troublesome areas of dark gradients. It appears that the level of quality in iTunes HD content is directly related to the efforts put into encoding. The best examples hold out a lot of promise for the overall potential of Apple TV, and the worst examples provide a warning of the limitations of downloadable media. We'll take a closer look at how Apple TV's HD content stacks up in the second installment of our Apple TV Take 2 review.

On page 3 of 3:New in Audio; New in Photos; and New in System Settings.

New in Audio

In terms of Audio output, Apple TV software now supports AirTunes and Dolby Digital passthrough. The former means iTunes users can select the Apple TV as a speaker source for remote, wireless playback of music from any PC running iTunes just as if the box were an AirPort Express; the latter means that it can now output 5.1 digitally encoded audio directly to a Dolby Digital decoder for higher quality surround sound playback than the previous Dolby Surround available on SD iTunes movie downloads. Most HD movie rentals supply a full Dolby Digital soundtrack.

For users with a 5.1 channel audio system connected to their HDTV as a home theater, the ability to wirelessly stream iTunes music to the Apple TV is a great new feature. Just as with an AirPort Express, Apple TV pops up in iTunes automatically as an output source (below). Once selected, the Apple TV acts as the remote speakers for iTunes. This feature can also be password protected to limit who on the local network can send audio to the system from iTunes.



AirTunes doesn't require any manual intervention on the Apple TV itself. Simply select it as an output source, and iTunes connects and begins playing. The Apple TV displays the album art and playback timeline of the playing song, but doesn't allow the song to be skipped or fast forwarded from the Apple TV's remote; control remains with iTunes.

Apple TV continues to play iTunes music via AirTunes as you navigate menus on Apple TV, up to the point where you select any type of competing audio content. It then pauses iTunes' playback from the AirTunes connection and plays whatever you selected instead. Returning to the AirTunes playback requires hitting play on the remote iTunes computer.

This cool new feature means that any visitor can pull out their laptop and begin streaming their iTunes music to your home theater via Apple TV without any setup on the system at all; it's all Bonjour discovered magic that only requires selecting Apple TV from the iTunes popup. It also gives Apple TV a whole new segment of simple functionality in terms of adding value to users' home theater. So when will Apple add AirTunes streaming audio support to the iPhone and iPod Touch? And when will Mac OS X add AirTunes as an option for outputting general system audio so that any application can wirelessly deliver audio?

New in Photos

For photos, the system now includes support for viewing online albums using Apple's .Mac Web Galleries or Yahoo's Flickr albums, in addition to syncing with photos from a local iTunes computer. To access either type of online account, you have to navigate the alphabet using the remote, which isn't fun but isn't too difficult either. The username input screen displays both upper and lower case letters, but neither .Mac nor Flickr cared about case, so you can enter names without worrying about which set of letters you should use. However, the system doesn't normalize your case; it shows up the way you typed it in.

I don't know anyone who actually uses the .Mac Web Gallery yet, so I pulled up emily_parker, the demo Apple uses. Or in my case, EMILY_parker, because I entered the case oddly (below). This feature in itself really demonstrates how useful a .Mac account is. Perhaps that's the point. Create photo galleries, and share them with your remote friends and family on Apple TV. Even share your videos, and in HD quality with a soundtrack. Playing with the test account on Apple TV made me want to start using Web Gallery.



Using Flickr, once you painstakingly type in a user name, you can then pull up that user's linked network of contacts and view circles of interconnected albums of photos, making the need to manually type in users less of a problem. The simple interface also makes it easy to voyeuristically idle away time browsing the incredible photos taken by people worldwide and uploaded to Flickr. As with iPhoto albums, Apple TV will attach your songs to create watchable slideshows of anything using the Ken Burns effect.



New in System Settings

The system now supports menus in English, Danish, Spanish, Korean, Portuguese, simplified and standard Chinese, Finnish, French, Dutch, Russian, Swedish, Norwegian, Italian, German, and Japanese, indicating that Apple has worldwide plans for the device. However, not all content is yet supported from all of the worldwide music stores, as Apple still has to hammer out licensing agreements on movies and rentals outside the US.

Also new as in different: rather than configuring Sources for streaming and syncing, there is a Computers submenu in Settings that enables you to identify the main iTunes system to sync with, and configure five other machines to stream content from.



With Apple TV Take Two, Apple has radically redefined its set top box and given it lots of very practical features. Previously, it was difficult to articulate exactly why Apple TV was useful. Now, it has obvious and marketable uses as a movie rental system, a podcast viewer, a TV client for browsing web galleries, in addition to the previous iTunes content sync and YouTube capabilities. The new navigation menu, which still seems a little strange, do work as a fast launching pad for jumping between functions. Improvements to existing features, including the easier to control media playback, along with new features such as support for AirTunes makes Apple TV a lot more useful that it was. The unit's price drop to $229 also helps.

Continue on to part 2 of our Apple TV Take 2 review covering HD Movie comparisons.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=3742)

ascii
02-13-2008, 09:37 AM
"None of this is too difficult to figure out, but it does seems to result in a complex system of navigation menus, particularly for an Apple product."

No kidding. The Apple TV is just a grab bag of features, with a nasty hierarchical menu system to match. Apple products usually have a central unifying theme and a nice simply GUI that flows from that. I swear they outsourced the design of this thing.

Lifino
02-13-2008, 09:55 AM
I could see the 2nd gen aTV, not aTV Take2, using a remote similar to the Wii, which would do away with the hierarchical interface and make things much more "Apple-Like" Not to mention making it completely obvious for a gaming machine too... IE: rewscrey xbox360.

One question I have for those of you with the aTV: Since it now has direct access to the internet does it allow streaming of the radio stations found on iTunes?

dangermouse
02-13-2008, 09:59 AM
but doesn't allow the song to be skipped or fast forwarded from the Apple TV's remote; control remains with iTunes.

Is this true? I can't check at the moment but I did test pausing, and that works once you select to allow it, iTunes | Preferences | Advanced | Allow iTunes control from remote speakers

Also, in answer to previous post by Lifino, yes, you can stream radio stations from iTunes.

mbene12
02-13-2008, 10:10 AM
Finished the update yesterday and have to say that I am impressed. The menus have become more complex but still reasonably easy to navigate and the visuals are pretty nice. It has become a one stop shopping for media from the comfort of the couch. My wife loves it.

I hope they actually advertise it heavily this time or it has no chance. There is a lot of resistance to the initial purchase price if you arent heavily invested in iTunes content already. Everyone who has seen it is very impressed though, so I really think Apple could have a winning product if they properly support it.

PaddyF
02-13-2008, 10:14 AM
"This doesn't invent new detail in the picture, but does deliver the best possible picture DVD can produce because it maintains a high quality signal to the set rather than delivering one that must be scaled up within the TV itself."

This is not necessarily true, it depends on the quality of scaler in the AppleTV box. TV Manafacturers put a lot of effort into their scalers to optimize them for their design/panel. I bet that TV's scalers are (in most cases) way better than the scaler in the appleTV box.
Also you need to consider that TV's with non HD resolutions (and there are many of them 1320*768-ish) will perform much better scaling to their native resolution (by themselves) than AppleTV ever could. If the appleTV is outputting 1080P for a 720P source a non-HD res tv would display a signal that went through 2 scalings which is detrimental to quality. (720P->1080P->Native).

LeRyman
02-13-2008, 10:31 AM
I just think the overall look of the UI is amazingly "square" and not elegant like every other Apple product. This thing does not scream QUALITY like everything else they do. Add some color ... anything would help.

Are there any options to change this?

I have TiVo and there UI is very smooth, easy to understand and professional looking.

Looks sell!

solipsism
02-13-2008, 10:37 AM
So, I'm guessing this is still using 10.4 at its base.


Can someone please tell me where you can purchase HD product? Shouldn't this read rent?
Purchase just means to pay for. The context is corect but wold be more clear if they used "rent" or rental purchase".

I just think the overall look of the UI is amazingly "square" and not elegant like every other Apple product. This thing does not scream QUALITY like everything else they do. Add some color ... anything would help.

Are there any options to change this?

I have TiVo and there UI is very smooth, easy to understand and professional looking.

Looks sell!

The main screen isn't as elegant as Take 1 but it is easier to navigate, IMO.

solipsism
02-13-2008, 10:54 AM
Is there a way to get my music and movies ,etc at the top of the individual list menus and not Apple's? Those secondary screens are harder to navigate due to this.

Not that I know of. I don't recall any Take 1 ahcks that allowed you to alter the BackRow interface. I never did check out my music and videos on the AppleTV as my 3rd AppleTV crapped out on me. I either live over a MS Indian graveyard or there is something wrong with the AppleTV hardware I'm getting.

JeffDM
02-13-2008, 11:42 AM
This is similar to what upconverting DVD players do, although Apple TV can start with higher resolution content; Upconverting DVD players deliver the standard definition content on DVDs to HDTV sets as an HD signal. This doesn't invent new detail in the picture, but does deliver the best possible picture DVD can produce because it maintains a high quality signal to the set rather than delivering one that must be scaled up within the TV itself.

Upscaling isn't always better done outside the TV. It depends on whether the TV or the device is better at scaling. I think it's usually good enough either way, but those wanting to experiment a bit can do so.

SpamSandwich
02-13-2008, 11:55 AM
There needs to be a statement at the end of the article.

"Links provided are part of an affiliate program. AppleInsider is compensated when links are clicked."

gordy
02-13-2008, 11:55 AM
I like the update, though I am disappointed that there still isn't a thumbnail view in 'My Photos'. I'll probably download a movie this weekend.

GringoViejo
02-13-2008, 12:19 PM
One question I have for those of you with the aTV: Since it now has direct access to the internet does it allow streaming of the radio stations found on iTunes?

Didn't think about that but after reading what you asked I tried it and the answer is yes, you can stream the radio stations in iTunes to the AppleTV -- this is way cool!

Gringo Viejo

solipsism
02-13-2008, 12:22 PM
Didn't think about that but after reading what you asked I tried it and the answer is yes, you can stream the radio stations in iTunes to the AppleTV -- this is way cool!

Gringo Viejo

But isn't that via AirTunes, and ot directly accessed from the AppleTV interface?

solipsism
02-13-2008, 12:54 PM
I mean if you can steam movie rentals, buy music directly, etc you'd think it would be able to stream internet radio directly as well.

Me too, since I figure most AppleTVs will be hooked up to a homes central entertainment center, whether it be the TV's speakers or an audio receiver.

Did hell freeze over, because we just agreed on something? :D

aresee
02-13-2008, 12:55 PM
But isn't that via AirTunes, and ot directly accessed from the AppleTV interface?
Yes, the AppleTV can stream internet radio. This includes any station that iTunes can play. Not just those stations listed in the Radio Library.

The trick is to import your radio station into iTunes as a music track. Then to make a playlist consisting of that track. At the AppleTV select and play your new playlist. The ApplTV is now playing your internet radio station.

Alfiejr
02-13-2008, 12:59 PM
sorry, Dan/Prince. overall much excellent info in your report. BUT ...

Charles Starrett over at iLounge did a much better job of comparing picture quality among HD alternatives:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/articles/comments/apple-tv-20-vs-blu-ray-dvd-hd-cable-the-comparison/

he was using a relatively small 40" set and clearly documented the visible differences in fact. of course, viewing distance always matters as you noted for perception.

in any discussion, you have to note the setup you're using since there are so many possible variations - the equipment, the connections, and the viewing distance (and the TV's video settings matter too). so for example at a six foot viewing distance from my 46" XBR, i can certainly see the difference between bluray 1080p and everything else. but i can't tell you about ten feet, because my room is too small!

solipsism
02-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Yes, the AppleTV can stream internet radio. This includes any station that iTunes can play. Not just those stations listed in the Radio Library.

The trick is to import your radio station into iTunes as a music track. Then to make a playlist consisting of that track. At the AppleTV select and play your new playlist. The ApplTV is now playing your internet radio station.

That seems more like a simple hack/work-around than a designed feature. I would have made a Radio station section appear when any iTunes radio stations were present in the synced or streamed iTunes account(s).

davegod75
02-13-2008, 01:15 PM
Yes, the AppleTV can stream internet radio. This includes any station that iTunes can play. Not just those stations listed in the Radio Library.

The trick is to import your radio station into iTunes as a music track. Then to make a playlist consisting of that track. At the AppleTV select and play your new playlist. The ApplTV is now playing your internet radio station.

I just tried this? How does it work? Any guides?

ShavenYak
02-13-2008, 01:20 PM
If you purchase a song from the iTunes Store on an AppleTV, can you get it back to the library on your Mac? I would assume so, but you never know with Apple and the studios lately.

I'll probably still hold out until they deliver one that can play VIDEO_TS folders - of course, by the time the AppleTV can do that, I'll probably be demanding BluRay playback too. Perhaps I should just buy a Mini and use FrontRow instead. No HD movie rentals then, but frankly I think standard DVDs upconverted look better than heavily compressed H.264 at 720p most of the time. I'll take lower resolution over visible artifacting any day.

aresee
02-13-2008, 01:20 PM
I am repeating this from a posting I made on another site.

I have a problem with 'My Movies', 'My TV Shows' and 'My Podcasts' showing both what has been synced to the Apple TV and what is stored on the computer in the same list. You can not tell what you have finished viewing from what you have started but not yet completed.

Apple has provided a blue button to show what you have not started viewing or listening to a media file. But that button goes once you start playing the file. If you are interrupted and stop the playback that blue button is no longer there when you come back. Nor is there any other indication that you are not done viewing that file. You can not tell a partially viewed file from a fully viewed file.

With Take 1 I got around this by using the "Syncing all unplayed episodes of selected movies/tv shows/podcasts" setting. This would copy only those files that had a play count of 0. (iTunes increments the play count when the file completes. Thus a partially view file will have a play count of 0 and no blue button.) Only the files that I have not yet finished would be in the AppleTV source listing and I could tell the ones that I had yet started by the presence of their button. If I wanted to view a file that I had already completed I could change the AppleTV source to the computer, find the file and replay the file via streaming.

The "Syncing all unplayed episodes of selected movies/tv shows/podcasts" setting is still available in Take 2. But its result goes into the same list showing all the media on that computer. Including all those files that I have finished. Again making no distinction between fully played and partially played media files. Making a mockery of the "Syncing all unplayed episodes of selected movies/tv shows/podcasts" setting.

*Maladjusted*
02-13-2008, 01:20 PM
"and the direct 1280x800 option for using the unit with a DVI monitor. "

does this mean one could connect a Apple 30-inch Cinema Display through a HDMI to DVI converter and connect sound through other ports and not need a TV ?

:\

Alfiejr
02-13-2008, 01:23 PM
follow up to earlier comment, here is the best analysis i ever found of perceived HD image quality and screen size/view distance parameters by Carlton Bale:

http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

solipsism
02-13-2008, 01:33 PM
If you purchase a song from the iTunes Store on an AppleTV, can you get it back to the library on your Mac? I would assume so, but you never know with Apple and the studios lately.

I'll probably still hold out until they deliver one that can play VIDEO_TS folders - of course, by the time the AppleTV can do that, I'll probably be demanding BluRay playback too. Perhaps I should just buy a Mini and use FrontRow instead. No HD movie rentals then, but frankly I think standard DVDs upconverted look better than heavily compressed H.264 at 720p most of the time. I'll take lower resolution over visible artifacting any day.

During the keynote Jobs mentioned that purchased audioand video would auto sync back to the iTunes account the at AppleTV is synced with.

As for VIDEO_TS, I can't imagine every happening with the DVD Consortium's blessing. According to iLounge's superficial results unconverted DVDs don't look better than TV HD rentals.

aresee
02-13-2008, 02:06 PM
I just tried this? How does it work? Any guides?
Ok, here is a procedure for playing Internet Radio from the AppleTV. I will be using one of the feeds from the iTunes Radio Library but it can be done with any station that plays through iTunes. All you need is a track in iTunes that you can move into a playlist. The only problem I have found so far with this method is QuickTime streams that I get via podcasts. The AppleTV does not display podcasts in its music section and will not play QuickTime streams in its podcast section.

1. In iTunes create a Playlist. Lets call it Internet Radio.

2. In the iTunes Radio Library locate a radio station you want to listen to. I am using Public > KCRW Music.

3. Drag, or otherwise add, the KCRW Music track into your new Internet Radio playlist.

4. From iTunes select and sync your AppleTV.

5. When the sync is complete go to your AppleTV and open the Internet Radio playlist. Music > My Music > Playlists > Internet Radio

6. From the AppleTV Internet Radio playlist select and play KCRW Music. For me the music starts after a short pause.


Have more than one internet radio station? In step 3 add the tract for each radio station you want to listen to.

McHuman
02-13-2008, 02:17 PM
It used to be that if I made a playlist that included radio stations, they would not show up in aTV.

Second problem I'm having is some thumbnails for my flickr sets are from other people's photos, not my own. :(

Last question - when you play trailers of HD movie offerings, are those trailers in HD? Because they don't look like it. I have not rented an HD movie yet to find out what those look like.

solipsism
02-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Ok, here is a procedure for playing Internet Radio from the AppleTV. I will be using one of the feeds from the iTunes Radio Library but it can be done with any station that plays through iTunes. All you need is a track in iTunes that you can move into a playlist. The only problem I have found so far with this method is QuickTime streams that I get via podcasts. The AppleTV does not display podcasts in its music section and will not play QuickTime streams in its podcast section.

1. In iTunes create a Playlist. Lets call it Internet Radio.

2. In the iTunes Radio Library locate a radio station you want to listen to. I am using Public > KCRW Music.

3. Drag, or otherwise add, the KCRW Music track into your new Internet Radio playlist.

4. From iTunes select and sync your AppleTV.

5. When the sync is complete go to your AppleTV and open the Internet Radio playlist. Music > My Music > Playlists > Internet Radio

6. From the AppleTV Internet Radio playlist select and play KCRW Music. For me the music starts after a short pause.


Have more than one internet radio station? In step 3 add the tract for each radio station you want to listen to.

Does it still work if the associated iTunes account is closed. Id est, is it streaming directly from the internet source to the AppleTV or is it going through iTunes?


PS: The replacement AppleTV I ordered yesterday evening around 2pm (PST) just arrived. That is pretty damn fast!

aresee
02-13-2008, 02:59 PM
Does it still work if the associated iTunes account is closed. Id est, is it streaming directly from the internet source to the AppleTV or is it going through iTunes?

Good question. I keep iTunes running all the time and didn't check for this.

I just shut down iTunes and my Internet Radio playlist disappeared from the AppleTV. This occurs even when I explicitly set the Internet Radio playlist to be synced with the AppleTV. So no this will not work if the host iTunes is not running. I wonder if it will work on shared iTunes?

BTW, this provides a workaround to my earlier problem of distinguishing between finished and unfinished media files.

Blippio
02-13-2008, 03:05 PM
"and the direct 1280x800 option for using the unit with a DVI monitor. "

does this mean one could connect a Apple 30-inch Cinema Display through a HDMI to DVI converter and connect sound through other ports and not need a TV ?

I'd like to know this as well. I know for a fact that the newer Cinema Displays (silver bezel) DO NOT work with the old appleTV software...

Do the newer Cinema Displays work with the appleTV via the new Take2 software? Any takers to give it a try?;)

(btw, I'm tired of running into that very misleading article "Apple TV:Turn DVI into HDTV"... it just isn't true--at least with the old appleTV software: It works only on the older monitors and does so in 1280x800...)

boazh
02-13-2008, 04:01 PM
So I was so excited for this update and ended up with huge disappointment.
There might be an issue with my update and I might need to repeat it although I don't know how to.... It appears that my ATV will freeze everyonce in awhile and the remote will not respond to any clicks, or will respond after 30 seconds. Also after pausing, it takes 10 secods sometimes for the media to start playing again. Anyone has the same issues?
I restrated several times and also run the diagnostic which tells me my ATV is working correctly... Why oh why Apple did not give us an option to have Genres for our collection of movies and tv shows is beyond me, It just lead me to think that Apple is no longer the company that strived to satisfy its users but rather make sure we all have an easy wat to spend $$ on renting or buying movies.

nagromme
02-13-2008, 04:03 PM
"Analog broadcast TV has long used a nearly square aspect ratio that is stretched out by non-square pixels that results in everyone on TV looking ten pounds heavier."

That's not true. Analog TV doesn't even use pixels (just a continuous color "stream" on each line), and digital systems creating content for analog use square or NARROW (8:9) pixels, not wide. And regardless, the result is perfectly proportioned--broadcast TV has not "long used" a system that makes the image wider.

If you see a wide image it's simply because you have a widescreen (16:9) TV, and analog TV uses a 4:3 standard shape. You should set your TV differently to show black bars on the sides (or else zoom in), and then you'll get the shape (which is not nearly square) of non-widescreen TVs.

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 04:35 PM
Perhaps I should just buy a Mini and use FrontRow instead. No HD movie rentals then, but frankly I think standard DVDs upconverted look better than heavily compressed H.264 at 720p most of the time. I'll take lower resolution over visible artifacting any day.

I thought the same thing, too. But then I read (forget where) that the new FrontRow doesn't pass-through the 5.1 digital audio when playing DVDs. Apparently, the old FrontRow actually played DVDs in the DVD Player application, which has a preference for 5.1 output. The new FrontRow no longer relies on DVD Player, and apparently Apple didn't think to include that option. If it weren't for that, I'd have an Intel mini with optical out hooked up to my TV and I'd be copying video_ts folders to an external hard drive. Granted, you could just play it in the DVD Player app manually, but that defeats the purpose of the convenience of it!

So:
- AppleTV with 5.1 HD content for rent, but can't play what you already own (until Handbrake figures out way to easily make a 5.1 rip of my DVDs!)
- or -
- Mac mini to (inconveniently) play the DVDs you already own, but no HD rental

Come on Apple, you are sooooo close to getting me to spend money! :D

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 04:48 PM
"Apple TV is essentially a low end Mac with a video card supporting 1280x800 resolution."

This is the first I've read anywhere the actual video card resolution limit. I always understood that video was limited to 720p. But nowhere, including Apple's own specs page, have I ever seen a max resolution for photos. So, I assumed the 720p limit was related to limits for decoding video, not a display resolution limit.

But from the above, it appears that AppleTV will not display my photos at 1920 x 1080 resolution, even though it now supports 1080p ouput. Is that correct???

If so, very, very, sad.....

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 04:50 PM
With all of using it- shouldn't Handbrake be getting a cut?

Using it? Who me? Why heavens no! That would be legally questionable! :smokey:

Adjei
02-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Remote Disc needs to be added..

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 04:53 PM
When Apple first released AirTunes, it could only play to a single AirportExpress at a time. They later updated it so you could stream to multiple recievers simultaneously.

I read a post elsewhere that stated that you can not stream to both an AppleTV and Airport Express at the same time. Can you confirm this? I hope it's not the case as that would disrupt my music distribution system!

caliminius
02-13-2008, 04:58 PM
Sigh, Appleinsider has been sliding downhill ever since the RoughlyDrafted people invaded (or perhaps simply took over). If the constant links to RD in EVERY "review" and many articles weren't enough, the reviews hardly deserve that moniker.

I know this is a pro-Apple site but maybe a little objectivity is in order. The first page of the article basically sets up the defense for why the video content of iTunes Store is more than sufficient for the needs of people wanting HD content, and the final page sets up the eventual comparison in the second part of this review. I'm sure that "review" will be no less than glowing. I'm sure it will point at a flaw or too but in the end, the "review" will end finding that "AppleTV and the iTunes Store is a great way to get into HD."

The review can't even get the facts straight. Blu-Ray is NOT Sony's format. And HD DVD certainly isn't Microsoft's format at this article states.

And despite the author's claim that "consumers haven't been buying the new HD disc formats," 2007 revenue from HD disc formats was more than double that of downloads:

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=164

And the author is quick to dismiss the fact that the Apple is priced not that far off the price of a Blu-Ray player or the fact that every time you want to watch an HD movie via the AppleTV it will cost you $5 with no current way to ever own that film.

Again, I've stopped expecting objectivity from this site's reviews but maybe they could just the name to Roughly Drafted 2 or just merge the two sites and be done with it.

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 05:10 PM
Remote Disc needs to be added..

Remote Disc with a MacBook Air does not allow you to play video DVDs, so I don't think that would help with AppleTV.

I know I'll get laughed at for suggeting it (again) but Apple really need to add an optical drive. They've already got a DVD Player application and have whatever licensing they need for audio (might need an MPEG2 license); but for about $20 they could include the drive plus a few extra dollars (if that) for any additional licensing and then sell a new version of Apple TV for an additional $100 markup.

That extra $80 of profit would MORE than make up for any marginal decrease in iTunes Store sales, along with getting what I believe would be a much larger number of AppleTVs into homes. THAT should be their primary push right now. Not maximizing iTunes sales on day one.

That and the more practical argument that I have neither shelf space nor TV inputs for an AppleTV. Something's got to go. It will never replace either my cable box or my TiVo. That leaves the DVD player as the only candidate for replacement. And right now, AppleTV can not replace a DVD player.

One final argument... people can relate to a DVD player. They know what it does and how to use it. I think it would be a much easier sales pitch if you could say, "It'll play all your DVDs and all this other cools stuff it does." As opposed to, "It does a bunch of cools stuff you'll really like, but you've never done it before so just trust me."

Wiggin
02-13-2008, 05:25 PM
Not a blu-ray? ATV is HD after all and DVDs are on the decline. And it would play both.

Sure, that would be ideal; but even I know the limits of reasonable expectations! :D

To me, the arguement for DVD is easy...to allow me to play the content I alreay own. Image how spectacularly UNsuccesful the iPod would have been if you weren't able to load your own CDs onto it! A DVD drive would allow me to get immediate use of my purchase with the content I already own.

Put in a blu-ray and mark the price up another $200, and I'll buy one tomorrow! But, as has been pointed out in the article, the current AppleTV's video card wouldn't be able to decode the 1080p video on a blu-ray disc. You'd also need additinal licensing, etc, etc. So it would be a bit more work to implement.

Kishan
02-13-2008, 05:57 PM
If you purchase a song from the iTunes Store on an AppleTV, can you get it back to the library on your Mac? I would assume so, but you never know with Apple and the studios lately.

This does work... I bought a song on the AppleTV and it was soon on my iMac upstairs. I think this is supposed to work for all files EXCEPT movies.

PaddyF
02-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Sigh, Appleinsider has been sliding downhill ever since the RoughlyDrafted people invaded (or perhaps simply took over). If the constant links to RD in EVERY "review" and many articles weren't enough, the reviews hardly deserve that moniker.

I know this is a pro-Apple site but maybe a little objectivity is in order. The first page of the article basically sets up the defense for why the video content of iTunes Store is more than sufficient for the needs of people wanting HD content, and the final page sets up the eventual comparison in the second part of this review. I'm sure that "review" will be no less than glowing. I'm sure it will point at a flaw or too but in the end, the "review" will end finding that "AppleTV and the iTunes Store is a great way to get into HD."

The review can't even get the facts straight. Blu-Ray is NOT Sony's format. And HD DVD certainly isn't Microsoft's format at this article states.

And despite the author's claim that "consumers haven't been buying the new HD disc formats," 2007 revenue from HD disc formats was more than double that of downloads:

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=164

And the author is quick to dismiss the fact that the Apple is priced not that far off the price of a Blu-Ray player or the fact that every time you want to watch an HD movie via the AppleTV it will cost you $5 with no current way to ever own that film.

Again, I've stopped expecting objectivity from this site's reviews but maybe they could just the name to Roughly Drafted 2 or just merge the two sites and be done with it.

+1

Totally agree, unless Apple move to a (or compete with a) subscription model they will fall the way of practically every cable VOD service, interesting at first but ultimately not worth the cost.

Regarding the article I spotted several technical misstatements that appear to make the Apple TV sound better than it actually is. Rather lame and obviously an Apple sales pitch IMO.

BRussell
02-13-2008, 06:18 PM
This does work... I bought a song on the AppleTV and it was soon on my iMac upstairs. I think this is supposed to work for all files EXCEPT movies. It works for all purchased files, including movies, but not for rentals.

aresee
02-13-2008, 08:34 PM
Speaking of which- wouldn't it be cool if we could set the image directly on the ATV- can we?
You can on cable TV remotes and most DVD machines. I rather set this on the device than the TV for 4:3 programs.
The AppleTV plays video in its native ratio. If the video is 4x3, it is played in 4x3 with black bars on each side. The problem is that most TVs out of the box have been set to stretch 4x3 video onto their 16x9 displays.

aresee
02-13-2008, 08:36 PM
When Apple first released AirTunes, it could only play to a single AirportExpress at a time. They later updated it so you could stream to multiple recievers simultaneously.

I read a post elsewhere that stated that you can not stream to both an AppleTV and Airport Express at the same time. Can you confirm this? I hope it's not the case as that would disrupt my music distribution system!
AirTunes will play on both your AppleTV and AirPort Express at the same time. I have successfully streamed a iTunes playlist to both my AppleTV and to my bedroom stereo.

retiarius
02-13-2008, 09:27 PM
"Apple TV is essentially a low end Mac with a video card supporting 1280x800 resolution."

This is the first I've read anywhere the actual video card resolution limit. I always understood that video was limited to 720p. But nowhere, including Apple's own specs page, have I ever seen a max resolution for photos. So, I assumed the 720p limit was related to limits for decoding video, not a display resolution limit.

But from the above, it appears that AppleTV will not display my photos at 1920 x 1080 resolution, even though it now supports 1080p ouput. Is that correct???

If so, very, very, sad.....

This does seem mighty strange, since the NVIDIA GeForce Go 7300 chip internal to the Apple TV
can easily do 1920x1200 external with the right drivers. Even ye olde (4 years ancient)
Mac PPC G5 tower that contains a stock NVIDIA 5200 did this.

If this is true, then it is by dint of Apple's software choice, not due to a limitation of the 7300 graphix.

If Apple is taking multimegabit photo resolution (a property of even the most primitive
digital camera), then pumping it all through the AppleTV MacOS system at one measly
megapixel, then fuzzily re-scaling this to 2 megapixel 1080p, this is more than very, very sad.

I guess they are trying to say that 1280x800 to an Apple TV-internal HDMI 1080p
hardware scaler is an improvement over 1280x800 to an HDTV scaler (doubtful, since
expensive HDTVs would use scaler chips at least as sophisticated), but they could just
use the internal NVIDIA 7300 GPU + software to get better results without that nonsense.

If the Appleinsider author is not just plain wrong, what is the technical justification
for Apple to go thru this byzantine procedure to downscale photos (and future
webpages, too) by ignoring the inherent NVIDIA GPU chip capabitlities?

tonydickinson
02-13-2008, 11:58 PM
So I was so excited for this update and ended up with huge disappointment.
There might be an issue with my update and I might need to repeat it although I don't know how to.... It appears that my ATV will freeze everyonce in awhile and the remote will not respond to any clicks, or will respond after 30 seconds. Also after pausing, it takes 10 secods sometimes for the media to start playing again. Anyone has the same issues?
I restrated several times and also run the diagnostic which tells me my ATV is working correctly... Why oh why Apple did not give us an option to have Genres for our collection of movies and tv shows is beyond me, It just lead me to think that Apple is no longer the company that strived to satisfy its users but rather make sure we all have an easy wat to spend $$ on renting or buying movies.

Hi - yes I have exactly the same problem, I was hoping that the update would cure that but it has not. I think it is an overheating issue, the unit is so well sealed there is no passage of air to cool it. I have tried relocating it in different areas, but no difference, was considering removing the rubber base and putting some stickers to raise it slightly.

Like you would be pleased to know if we are alone. I live in Singapore and the ambient temperature is usually 30 degrees celcius.. Is this the issue??

Brgds/Tony

aresee
02-14-2008, 11:40 AM
... I prefer to leave the TV at 16:9. Long 4:3 programs I like to stretch out on occasion. ...

Ugh, the distortion drives me crazy.

solipsism
02-14-2008, 11:54 AM
Ugh, the distortion drives me crazy.

Me too.

JeffDM
02-14-2008, 11:57 AM
I understand that. I just wish I could manipulate the ATV's aspect ratio direct on the ATV like I can on my cable remote and DVD remote. I prefer to leave the TV at 16:9. Long 4:3 programs I like to stretch out on occasion. I prefer to set the TV once with 16:9 as the default and not change it again (don't like to have to use yet another remote).

And you called yourself a videophile.

MacbookAnimal
02-14-2008, 12:13 PM
LeRyman wrote "I just think the overall look of the UI is amazingly "square" and not elegant like every other Apple product. This thing does not scream QUALITY like everything else they do. Add some color ... anything would help.

I totally agree, I was shocked when I first saw it come up, like a fragment of an Excel table that had somehow sleepwalked over from Office 2004. I was hoping it was just some sort of intial configuration page that would go away.

minderbinder
02-14-2008, 12:16 PM
So, I'm guessing this is still using 10.4 at its base.

I've read that it's 10.4.7.


"Analog broadcast TV has long used a nearly square aspect ratio that is stretched out by non-square pixels that results in everyone on TV looking ten pounds heavier."

That's not true. Analog TV doesn't even use pixels (just a continuous color "stream" on each line), and digital systems creating content for analog use square or NARROW (8:9) pixels, not wide. And regardless, the result is perfectly proportioned--broadcast TV has not "long used" a system that makes the image wider.

I thought that section was odd too. The notion of the camera adding ten pounds applies to film as well as video (and I'm sure HD as well). Blaming it on pixel shape is misinformation, please correct it in the article.

The review can't even get the facts straight. Blu-Ray is NOT Sony's format. And HD DVD certainly isn't Microsoft's format at this article states.

While neither format is exclusively that of those two companies, there's no question that they both are heavily devoted to the respective formats.

Totally agree, unless Apple move to a (or compete with a) subscription model they will fall the way of practically every cable VOD service, interesting at first but ultimately not worth the cost.

Digital subscription models will never be able to compete with mailing out CDs, not unless the studios radically change the way they license content.

Netflix doesn't have to pay a royalty every time they mail a disk out, that's how they can have their "unlimited" plans at those prices. For downloads, the studios require a royalty payment for each download, which means that a subscription model would either have a fairly low cap or would be substantially more expensive. It would be great to see a subscription model, but I don't think it's necessary for Apple to do well, and I don't think it's even possible given current studio constraints.

Robre
02-14-2008, 12:46 PM
"None of this is too difficult to figure out, but it does seems to result in a complex system of navigation menus, particularly for an Apple product."

No kidding. The Apple TV is just a grab bag of features, with a nasty hierarchical menu system to match. Apple products usually have a central unifying theme and a nice simply GUI that flows from that. I swear they outsourced the design of this thing.

I kind of feel the same when looking at the A-TV's U/I: nice but just "good enough". Maybe it's because a few days ago I got "spoiled" seeing a demo of the Kaleidascape system at a local Magnolia A/V store. (http://kaleidascape.com/ )
Here is a company that spent years in court fighting the RIAA while they perfected their system. They won and now their system legally copies your DVD movies onto the system's HDD. And then their UI kicks in. Looks like - well - "what you would expect from Apple...". It's quite a bit pricey (12K and up) but so where big-screen LCD TVs 5 years ago. The A-TV product train is in no way going fast enough for many of us. Running faster costs money. There is some great IP out there I wouldn't mind Apple spending some of their 15 billion it has in cash on.

solipsism
02-14-2008, 01:00 PM
I kind of feel the same when looking at the A-TV's U/I: nice but just "good enough". Maybe it's because a few days ago I got "spoiled" seeing a demo of the Kaleidascape system at a local Magnolia A/V store. (http://kaleidascape.com/ )
Here is a company that spent years in court fighting the RIAA while they perfected their system. They won and now their system legally copies your DVD movies onto the system's HDD. And then their UI kicks in. Looks like - well - "what you would expect from Apple...". It's quite a bit pricey (12K and up) but so where big-screen LCD TVs 5 years ago. The A-TV product train is in no way going fast enough for many of us. Running faster costs money. There is some great IP out there I wouldn't mind Apple spending some of their 15 billion it has in cash on.

That is visual neat, but I don't think it's as usual at the AppleTV's system. I would prefer a hybrid of the two in a more Delicous Library type interface. Apple has stolen enough of their staff as it is!.

For the same reason that people wanted a list view in Stacks I wouldn't use this view for my content in the AppleTV. I don't even use CoverFlow in Finder or iTunes. I see it a novelty and not something to increase my productivity or usability. However, I don't see any reason why that can't be an toggle option for those users who do wish to use it.

anantksundaram
02-14-2008, 03:09 PM
I just think the overall look of the UI is amazingly "square" and not elegant like every other Apple product. This thing does not scream QUALITY like everything else they do. Add some color ... anything would help.

Are there any options to change this?

I have TiVo and there UI is very smooth, easy to understand and professional looking.

Looks sell!

I happen to think that the overall look of the UI is very elegant and Apple-like. So your view is purely subjective.

Gatesbasher
02-14-2008, 04:15 PM
I applaud Apple for offering such a huge upgrade for an existing device (not to mention being able to) and offering it for free. I know all the Apple-bashers on these forums will never give them credit for it, but very few other companies would (or could) do the same.

BUT...

With true 1080p TVs being available now at a reasonable and ever-descending price, and with Blu-Ray finally winning the format war despite the frenzied efforts of Microsoft (yes, Microsoft!) to poison the well, I think anything that would hinder the complete and rapid shift to that maximal picture quality is a Bad Thing™. I think also that downloading HD video (as opposed to 320x240 video or excruciating 128,000 bps audio) over the internet is, and will remain for a long time a very small niche market. At least until they finally deliver the "optical fiber into your home" they've been promising for 20 years. I won't be buying an Apple TV until it's 1080p and I can download a 1080p movie in lossless compression in significantly less than real time. I'm not holding my breath!

minderbinder
02-14-2008, 05:01 PM
I won't be buying an Apple TV until it's 1080p and I can download a 1080p movie in lossless compression in significantly less than real time. I'm not holding my breath!

You'll never see releases losslessly compressed. At least not unless there's a major breakthrough and someone invents lossless compression at ratios of 10+ to one (and way beyond).

With lossless compression, a movie in 1080p (or any HD format) would be hundreds of gigs. And compared to a lossy compression with a good codec and a high bitrate, you could probably get a version indistinguishable from the original by most if not all people at a fraction of the size.

While I think it would benefit the aTV to handle 1080p content, and at fairly high bitrates, I don't think rentals at 780 will slow adoption much.

And why is "significantly less than real time" important, considering you can't watch the content faster than real time? I have a hard time imagining a situation where more than 5-10% faster than real time provides an advantage.

JeffDM
02-14-2008, 05:35 PM
And want do you call yourself? Idiot? :no:
You obviously have never heard of "burn-in"? That's what happens when you leave a non-moving image on for a period of time. That's why the Apple TV GUI is constantly moving and that why we have what are called screen-savers. Trust me you do not want to burn in side black bars on a 50 inch plasma. Do you even own a widescreen HD TV?

Yes, but I didn't buy a plasma for that reason.

minderbinder
02-14-2008, 05:58 PM
And want do you call yourself? Idiot? :no:

Here's a hint...if you want to call someone an idiot, it's probably best to do it using words that are spelled right...

Gatesbasher
02-14-2008, 08:20 PM
You'll never see releases losslessly compressed. At least not unless there's a major breakthrough and someone invents lossless compression at ratios of 10+ to one (and way beyond).

We already have lossless compression at about 50 to one. On every DVD. For 1080x1920 we need about 6 times the capacity. That's why we had to have Blu-Ray instead of the miserable HD-DVD halfway-house format. If you want to see 1080i video with lossless compression, just pull it off the air. That's why it's better than HD on cable. A 2-hour movie in 1080p is about 25 GB. By some fantastic coincidence, that's one layer of a Blu-Ray disc. Of course, even with cable internet, that would take almost 10 hours to download. Which was my point.

I want to download a movie in significantly less than real time because I refuse to try to watch something while it's still downloading. I know there are going to be constant glitches if it's downloading in the background. Even the positive reviews of the aTV say as much, and that's just with SD content.

JeffDM
02-14-2008, 08:31 PM
We already have lossless compression at about 50 to one. On every DVD.

No, DVD-Video is lossy, I don't understand why you think otherwise. The only lossless part of DVD-Video is PCM stereo audio, and most DVDs don't use that.

Gatesbasher
02-14-2008, 09:26 PM
No, DVD-Video is lossy, I don't understand why you think otherwise. The only lossless part of DVD-Video is PCM stereo audio, and most DVDs don't use that.

The video signal on a DVD can be compressed to about 2% of its original size (losslessly,) better than the about 3% of a JPEG still photo, because there's a great deal of redundancy from frame to frame. Digital cable is compressed further (at best about another 2x) because they want to fit as many channels in as possible. That's why no one uses that lossless one-hour mode on their DVD recorders. The 2 hr. mode is about equal to the quality you're getting over cable. Of course some of the channels they consider less important (which I watch all the time) are really severely compressed (worse than the 8-hour mode on my recorder. (Curse Comcast!)

The audio on a DVD is of course, extremely lossy: 5-channel CD-quality audio would be 3,528,000 bps. Almost as much as the video.

JeffDM
02-14-2008, 09:31 PM
The video signal on a DVD can be compressed to about 2% of its original size (losslessly,) better than the about 3% of a JPEG still photo, because there's a great deal of redundancy from frame to frame.

Yes there is a great deal of redundancy that is removed, but MPEG-2 is still lossy. It may appear that no information is lost, but it is. The use of lossless is to describe a computational property, not a perceptual one. The data out of a decoder must be exactly the same as the data into the encoder to be lossless. There is no mode in MPEG-2 that is lossless. A lot of DVDs do have significant artifacts due to this lossy compression. You might not see this due to the quality or calibration of the TV, or many other factors.

JeffDM
02-14-2008, 09:35 PM
And that's just proves that you're also not a videophile. :err:

I don't think it's limited to one display technology.

I decided I wanted a bigger screen than is realistic for plasma.

solipsism
02-14-2008, 09:41 PM
The video signal on a DVD can be compressed to about 2% of its original size (losslessly,) better than the about 3% of a JPEG still photo, because there's a great deal of redundancy from frame to frame. Digital cable is compressed further (at best about another 2x) because they want to fit as many channels in as possible. That's why no one uses that lossless one-hour mode on their DVD recorders. The 2 hr. mode is about equal to the quality you're getting over cable. Of course some of the channels they consider less important (which I watch all the time) are really severely compressed (worse than the 8-hour mode on my recorder. (Curse Comcast!)

The audio on a DVD is of course, extremely lossy: 5-channel CD-quality audio would be 3,528,000 bps. Almost as much as the video.

There is a tremendous amount of lossy compression going on with DVD video. It uses the MPEG-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2#DVD) which I believe was approved in 1995. The masters are magnitudes larger than the 720x480 @ ~10Mb/sec bitrate that DVD maxes out at.

Even HD-DVD and Blu-ray use lossy compression with MPEG-2, VC-1 and MPEG-4 PART10 (H.264). The size is just too great to keep it uncompressed.

Gatesbasher
02-14-2008, 10:15 PM
It uses the MPEG-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2#DVD) which I believe was approved in 1995. The masters are magnitudes larger than the 720x480 @ ~10Mb/sec bitrate that DVD maxes out at.

Yes, the error-free compression algorithms that make this possible are a triumph of modern mathematics. Digital broadcasting (or DVDs or Photo CDs) would be impossible without them. I know most people think they can't be error-free since they compress the signal so much more than audio compression can, but that's because pictures are two-dimensional and one line is usually much like the ones above and below it. Motion pictures could be compressed a lot more than they are if DVD players could be counted on to have a lot more memory and computational power than they do, because then they could compare a lot more frames at a time, but we work with what we have.

The lossy compression formats that have been added on are fairly robust ("robust" meaning small errors result in small differences,) but they still cause visible artifacts even at just another 2x. Try watching a broadcast HDTV program--you'll be amazed.

(If you think DVD-video at ~50x is lossy, that means you think JPEG photo CDs at ~33x are lossy as well, and I think we can both agree they're not.)

solipsism
02-14-2008, 10:22 PM
(If you think DVD-video at ~50x is lossy, that means you think JPEG photo CDs at ~33x are lossy as well, and I think we can both agree they're not.)

We can't agree. I don't care how high the profile or bitrate is a lossy compression is by definition data compression in which unnecessary information is discarded. JPEG, GIF, MP3, AAC, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are all common lossy algorithms in which the decoded data will mostly likely not be the same as the original.

GQB
02-15-2008, 12:05 AM
Yes, the AppleTV can stream internet radio. This includes any station that iTunes can play. Not just those stations listed in the Radio Library.

The trick is to import your radio station into iTunes as a music track. Then to make a playlist consisting of that track. At the AppleTV select and play your new playlist. The ApplTV is now playing your internet radio station.

Can you expand on that? What do you mean by 'import your radio station into iTunes as a music track? That's not an obvious action.

tks

solipsism
02-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Can you expand on that? What do you mean by 'import your radio station into iTunes as a music track? That's not an obvious action.

tks

Assuming you already have the Internet Radio streams in iTunes v7.6 under Radio.Step 1: Create Playlist(s)
Step 2: Drag and drop internet radio streams from Radio onto new playlist(s)
Step 3: Sync new playlist(s) to AppleTV

GQB
02-15-2008, 12:16 AM
Assuming you already have the Internet Radio streams in iTunes v7.6 under Radio.Step 1: Create Playlist(s)
Step 2: Drag and drop internet radio streams from Radio onto new playlist(s)
Step 3: Sync new playlist(s) to AppleTV

Cool! Tks
(It was 'import' that threw me...)

Gatesbasher
02-15-2008, 01:24 AM
We can't agree. I don't care how high the profile or bitrate is a lossy compression is by definition data compression in which unnecessary information is discarded. JPEG, GIF, MP3, AAC, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are all common lossy algorithms in which the decoded data will mostly likely not be the same as the original.

This depends on what you mean by "the original." I agree that on a DVD for example, "unnecessary information" has been discarded between the master tape and your TV screen. The original 24 (32?) bits per pixel has, in particular, been reduced by making the chroma resolution half what the luminance resolution is. (This is so much better than the broad swathes of misplaced colors painted in on the retrace in the NTSC system that we don't care.) So yes, the information content of the picture has been reduced. But after that point the compression algorithm used on DVDs or digital broadcasting, is error-free: meaning, when re-expanded, it's exactly the same as before. The further, lossy compression used by cable companies, or worse yet, internet downloads, introduces discrepancies that are anything from noticeable to atrocious.

Download a 640x480 .jpg picture from a web page sometime: you'll find it's been compressed from its original 640x480x24=7,372,800 bits (900 KB) to about 28 KB, ~3% of its original size--losslessly.

aresee
02-15-2008, 01:43 AM
Can you expand on that? What do you mean by 'import your radio station into iTunes as a music track? That's not an obvious action.

tks
Actually what I was thinking of was taking the URL of a web based radio station and inputting it to iTunes like you do podcasts. But I haven't found such a radio station.

But if you go to a web based radio station like live365 it opens up a track in iTunes for playback. You can drag that track into your playlist and play it from the AppleTV.

JeffDM
02-15-2008, 06:41 AM
This depends on what you mean by "the original." I agree that on a DVD for example, "unnecessary information" has been discarded between the master tape and your TV screen. The original 24 (32?) bits per pixel has, in particular, been reduced by making the chroma resolution half what the luminance resolution is.

That's what lossy means, and the same is done at the DVD encoding stage too. Lossless and lossy are about information theory. Sometimes too much information is thrown away and you get obvious mosquito noise, blockiness and other problems, all on DVD because MPEG-2 is lossy and throws too much away.

Codecs that don't throw information away are called lossless, meaning the decoded information is exactly bit-for-bit what it was before it was encoded. Just because you can't see the information loss doesn't mean it's not lost. You are not using the compression industry's definition of lossless. What you're really saying is that DVD is good enough. But to say it's lossless is false.

minderbinder
02-15-2008, 08:44 AM
We already have lossless compression at about 50 to one. On every DVD. For 1080x1920 we need about 6 times the capacity. That's why we had to have Blu-Ray instead of the miserable HD-DVD halfway-house format. If you want to see 1080i video with lossless compression, just pull it off the air. That's why it's better than HD on cable. A 2-hour movie in 1080p is about 25 GB. By some fantastic coincidence, that's one layer of a Blu-Ray disc. Of course, even with cable internet, that would take almost 10 hours to download. Which was my point.

That is completely wrong.

DVDs are pretty heavily compressed. Bluray and HDDVD are compressed. Broadcast hdtv is compressed.

I'm not sure what gave you the idea that any of those formats are uncompressed, but none of them are, I don't think there has ever been an uncompressed consumer digital video format.

Uncompressed HDTV takes up hundreds of gigs per hour.

720p HDTV uncompressed;
8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 105 MB per/sec, or 370 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 140 MB per/sec, or 494 GB per/hr.
http://www.colorlab.com/telecine/colorlab_HD_guide.pdf

And based on the rest of your post, I assume you're wrong about 50 to 1 lossless video compresson? Or do you have a source on that?

The video signal on a DVD can be compressed to about 2% of its original size (losslessly,) better than the about 3% of a JPEG still photo, because there's a great deal of redundancy from frame to frame.

It can be compressed that much, but it's definitely not lossless. If DVDs had lossless video, why do we see compression artifacts (you can see them on HD discs as well).


The video signal on a DVD can be compressed to about 2% of its original size (losslessly,) better than the about 3% of a JPEG still photo, because there's a great deal of redundancy from frame to frame. Digital cable is compressed further (at best about another 2x) because they want to fit as many channels in as possible. That's why no one uses that lossless one-hour mode on their DVD recorders. The 2 hr. mode is about equal to the quality you're getting over cable. Of course some of the channels they consider less important (which I watch all the time) are really severely compressed (worse than the 8-hour mode on my recorder. (Curse Comcast!)

The audio on a DVD is of course, extremely lossy: 5-channel CD-quality audio would be 3,528,000 bps. Almost as much as the video.

This depends on what you mean by "the original." I agree that on a DVD for example, "unnecessary information" has been discarded between the master tape and your TV screen.

That's exactly how lossy is defined. You just said that DVDs are lossy.

Download a 640x480 .jpg picture from a web page sometime: you'll find it's been compressed from its original 640x480x24=7,372,800 bits (900 KB) to about 28 KB, ~3% of its original size--losslessly.

Nobody is arguing that it's not way smaller than the uncompressed version. You just have the flawed notion that it's lossless, not sure what gave you that mistaken idea. WHY do you think that is lossless and not lossy?

Lossless means that the image is exactly the same as the original, meaning you can see zero difference from the original (not the case with any consumer video format) and that you can convert the compressed file back into an uncompressed form and it will be bit for bit identical to the original.

Find an uncompressed picture file and convert it to 3% of its original size with JPG. If you compare the two, you will see differences, especially if you zoom in. And if you convert that JPG into the original file format, if it were uncompressed you'd end up with the exact file you started with, identical to the last bit. That won't happen.

JPEG is defined as a lossy format:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jpeg

mpeg2 used on DVD is defined as a lossy format:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2

martinmoorejr
03-31-2008, 06:22 PM
My girlfriend and I are very interested in purchasing an Apple TV. The main reason is to store all of our movies digitally rather than having a dvd upconvertor or a blue ray player.

So my first question is. If Apple ever decided to release movies in 1080p, would the Apple TV be able to play those?

My second question is, I have around 200 non-hd dvd's I want to burn into iTunes and then stream to my tv. What will ATV do with the resolution? Will it looks as good as what a dvd upconvertor can do, or does it just play whatever format the dvd is in? I'm conserned because I don't want to spend months converting all my movies if what I am trying to do is not going to end up looking good on a tv.

Finally, at the apple store they had an apple tv setup on a HDTV and I must say the resolution of the menus/text was unimpressive. My xbox 360 menues looked more crisp on a standard definition tv. I expected the letters and lines to be very sharp like when you are looking at OS X for example on a computer. Were perhaps the settings incorrect?

Any information you guys have about ATV and how you use it would be much apprecitated. I love the idea of having all my movies stored digitally and at my finger tips but if ATV isn't at that point yet with non-HD movies and HD movies I don't want to waste and time or money, and i'd rather wait.

Thanks so much!


martin

Galley
03-31-2008, 08:36 PM
tv does not support 1080p playback. Your ripped DVDs will look just as good as the original discs.