Barack Obama and his Speech

[Fellowship]

I fully find Obama to be a major source of good for this country and the world. I support Obama during this trying time in his campaign.

Please weigh in with your views of his speech.

Respectfully,

Fellows

[Flat Stanley]

He is speaking now. I have confidence in him.

[Fellowship]

In a nutshell...

"He gets it"

Barack Obama understands the American condition. I have a belief that he has the true motivation to make America and our shared concerns and dreams his main pillar of politics which I believe can truly change our world for good.

Fellows

[groverat]

New York Times link to speech transcript (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/us/politics/18text-obama.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

I thought the speech contained some very honest points about race relations in the US.

[BRussell]

Obama is our savior!!!

No one tell me he's just a politician. I won't vote for him then! I'm going to withhold judgment until I see him fight Morpheus in the simulator.

[Jubelum]

...and for as long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible.

OMG. America... a place where people can win and dreams can be achieved? Methinks Barak has lost touch with the KOS set... I thought we were a nation of soup lines, people dying hourly at the hands of grinding poverty that we're all just a paycheck away from?

I'm impressed.

either “too black” or “not black enough.”

Echoes of Rev. Wright. Not impressed.

On the other end, we’ve heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike.

There ya go. I'm back to impressed.


For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances – for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives – by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

This is awesome. I hope if he is elected he'll govern from this perspective. How about this, Barak... hows about you help me and other Americans write our own destiny be cutting taxes, and making the Bush cuts permanent?

But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

I don't think so. You getting up of your ass, getting a job, staying in school, etc, has nothing to do with "a belief that society can change."

by investing in our schools and our communities

Tired, worn rhetoric. Kennedy-style. LOOK, Barak, at what we spend already in social and educational programs. Our kids keep falling further behind, and we have scarcely fewer poor people than we did at the beginning of the Great Society of 1964. Yawn. Simply throwing money at problems does not solve them.

Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams

Does this mean that you're going to end the progressive income tax and adopt a Fair Tax?

This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children.

Let's start with the NEA then. I'm ready to discuss "crumbling schools."

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn’t look like you might take your job; it’s that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

So what, exactly, does that mean? Subsidies? Tariffs? More government regulations on the free market? Mr. Obama, I need some meat here.

Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother’s problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn’t. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

OK, let's stop talking about illegal immigration... the fight against people breaking our nation's laws IS a fight against injustice. The injustice of people cutting in line and receiving benefits ahead of others who are more qualified. I see what you did here, Mr. Obama... we'll just forget about amnesty and open borders and those electoral votes you guys are depending on...

Anyway... there are a lot of good, solid points in this speech. There are also quite a few polished turds from the DNC rhetoric of decades past. High and mighty goals... with the lingering scent of the same... old... solutions. I'm a little bothered with the ending tone, mostly because it is not like Obama invented racial reconciliation. I think he's treading in dangerous assumptions, the same kind of dangerous assumptions that lead to racial hostility in the first place.

[franksargent]

New York Times link to speech transcript (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/us/politics/18text-obama.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

I thought the speech contained some very honest points about race relations in the US.

"A More Perfect Union" (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGBbJv)

But damn, I had to read his speech because I slept right through it. :no:

Judging from the comments here, it would seem, the Obama experience is way better, in the first person sense.

Once his speech is posted to Youtube (or whatever), I'd really appreciate someone posting a link to it. 8-)

EDIT: Nevermind it's on the link I just posted.

[Flounder]

A really thought provoking speach. My favorite parts:


And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.


For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle – as we did in the OJ trial – or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright’s sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she’s playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we’ll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, “Not this time.” This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can’t learn; that those kids who don’t look like us are somebody else’s problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

[CosmoNut]

The guy is impressive and is certainly cut from a different cloth than nearly any other person who's run for president in the last 20 years.

When I saw Obama give his speech at the Democratic convention four years ago, I thought to myself, "This dude needs to be president someday."

[Northgate]

I think it was a good speech. I think it served its purpose.

I was hoping for a little more feiry passion -- a speech that could not only fix the problem, but turn it around to his advantage. That was my only disappointed.

But considering today's political discourse, this speech was still a thousand times better than most.

[Outsider]

I'm going to withhold judgment until I see him fight Morpheus in the simulator.

OK, i LOLed at that. :lol:

[franksargent]

The speech was just under 38 minutes and almost 5,000 words.

Now Obama frequently looked to his left and then to his right alternatively throughout his speech, and on other occasions looked down (presumably to check his notes).

If he's not reading from two teleprompters (on his left and right sides), but just using his notes, as placeholders, than I find that feat pretty amazing in and of itself, but maybe it's just me? As public speaking is definitely something I would not feel confident in doing, or have had any experience with, seeing as I'm a major league introvert. :(

Maybe some of you have had, or more fully understand, the techniques of speech writing/giving?

midwinter, you immediately come to mind, your thoughts on this would be most welcome, as well as the thoughts of anyone else in this regard.

TIA.

Edit: I think, I just answered my own question? :???:

Teleprompter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleprompter)

Teleprompters are often used for speeches as well. In this application they are called Conference Teleprompter Systems. In this case, the reflector is usually a piece of glass with a special partially reflective coating. It is mostly transparent so as not to block the view of the speaker by the audience or cameras. Usually two of these are set up, one on either side of the podium (if there is one), so the speaker can look around at the audience and always be able to see one. Except for these aesthetic changes, they work the same as for television. This style of teleprompter is often called presidential glass in the USA, due to its association with speeches made by the President of the United States.

[Gilsch]

It's already on YouTube. Not a bad speech. Could use some coaching.

[sammi jo]

Obama? Why even bother talking about him since he is unelectable? The Democratic Party is over, bar the next inevitable inquest into why they lost the White House, yet again. Obama is trivia, excess baggage, the Timberlake/Spears/Hilton etc. of politics. He doesn't have an original thought in his head. He regurgitates well-rehearsed ersatz impressions of speeches by leaders of the past, (especially MLK et al), but it's all second hand, and as insincere as a "hooker's whisper". What does he have to offer? More of the same; the difference being that the "psychopath sauce" would be added to the recipe in the kitchen behind closed doors, out of his control.

[addabox]

I encourage everyone to pop over to Salon and give Glenn Greenwald's article (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/) a read.

In brief, he argues that America has a long tradition of white, evangelical clergy who argue strenuously that America is debased, fallen, ugly, that it brings disaster upon itself, and even "opened the door" to 9/11 by straying from the path of righteousness.

People who hate America, in other words, if by "America" we mean "the country as it actually is."

So are these men vilified as America haters, and shunned by politicians? Of course not, they get invited to the White House to help craft policy.

So: black preacher laments America as she currently is, finding her sick and broken, her spiritual malaise at least in part an explanation for catastrophes like 9/11, the agent of her debasement white racism.

(Many, prominent) white preachers lament America as she currently is, finding her sick and broken, her spiritual malaise at least in part an explanation for catastrophes like 9/11, the agent of her debasement "liberalism".

Huh. Which one, here in liberal-media-fascist-Christians-are-practically-an-oppressed-minority land, gets a pass?

America hating is professed from white pulpits every Sunday, but it's not a problem. The only difference is the race of the professor, the perceived root of the problem, and what a "better" America would look like.

[Fellowship]

Obama? Why even bother talking about him since he is unelectable? The Democratic Party is over, bar the next inevitable inquest into why they lost the White House, yet again. Obama is trivia, excess baggage, the Timberlake/Spears/Hilton etc. of politics. He doesn't have an original thought in his head. He regurgitates well-rehearsed ersatz impressions of speeches by leaders of the past, (especially MLK et al), but it's all second hand, and as insincere as a "hooker's whisper". What does he have to offer? More of the same; the difference being that the "psychopath sauce" would be added to the recipe in the kitchen behind closed doors, out of his control.

I simply disagree with this..

I think Obama is indeed several cuts above what we are used to in this country.

The question as I see it is this..

Is America ready for such a candidate?

I know I am.

Fellows

[Jubelum]

I simply disagree with this..
I think Obama is indeed several cuts above what we are used to in this country.
The question as I see it is this..
Is America ready for such a candidate?
I know I am.
Fellows


Two things...

http://www.hudsonlibrary.org/Hudson%20Website/Images/Web%20Collection/Pins/Mondale-Ferraro.jpg

1. With echoes of the Democratic landslide past... where's the beef? Really... I want to see some real plans before I declare that he is "new" or "different." Just look at what "new" and "fresh" got the Dems last time around... William Jefferson Clinton. The same tired old statist crowd we're used to.

2. Oh, and he would not be in the position if he were not black... :rolleyes:

[Jubelum]

I can't tell if you're echoing or criticizing Ferraro...

Criticizing, of course. Her comment (the same divisive shit she said about Jesse in 88) was completely out of bounds. But very telling coming from a rich, white, feminist liberal democrat. Someone from the "party of compassion and empowerment for the downtrodden."

Seems to me that Geraldine isn't "down for the struggle," unless it involves people who look and think just like her. Part of the plantation mentality that helps keep people voting for one side, based on promises of help that rarely materialize. God forbid one of these people does not "know their place" and actually challenges a white person, especially a liberal female white person.

GF was an idiot then. She's an idiot now. It's just that this time around we can see her true beliefs.

[audiopollution]

Hey, Jubelum,

Just so you know, Barack is spelled with a 'c'.

Your pal,

AudioPollution

[Jubelum]

Hey, Jubelum

:lol:

Chalk that one up to having written my PoliSci thesis on Israeli politics... "Ehud BARAK."
All that caffeine must have burned the "other" spelling into my then-fried melon.

Your Pal, just like PMs,

Jubelum

[SDW2001]

I think it was a good speech. I think it served its purpose.

I was hoping for a little more feiry passion -- a speech that could not only fix the problem, but turn it around to his advantage. That was my only disappointed.

But considering today's political discourse, this speech was still a thousand times better than most.

Yes, it did serve its purpose: He tried to calm down the shit storm that has erupted over his Pastor.

Most of it was platitude-filled nonsense. The parts that weren't were directed at disavowing Wright and separating himself from the man. It was also an excellent opportunity to play the race card again. Poor Barack Obama is just trying to unite the country. But he's up against so much! Not that whites are racist...no, no! It's just that there are so many people who want to make the campaign about race and race alone. And Yes, He Can Overcome!® That's what his speech was.

Of course, I think the speech may ultimately fail him, even if it was well written and well delivered. The central problem is that for many, there is no acceptable explanation for his association with Pastor Wright. The explanation that "his words are not mine" and "Of course I disagree with his inflammatory comments" is just not going to cut it here. Why? He associated with him for 20 years. His Pastor was an intimate part of his family's life. He married them. He baptized their children. His children sat in that church and heard some of the same inflammatory, disgusting rhetoric. Did Obama disavow it then? No. Did he change churches? No. He continued to have this man at his side for 20 years. It's not about race, it's about judgement.

Back at the Political Reality Ranch: Imagine what the GOP is going to do with this. Imagine the commerical:

<voiceover/black screen> This is Barack Obama's Pastor of 20 years.....

<clip 1 'United States of KKKA....">

<voiceover> This is the man that baptized Obama's children and provided moral guidance....

<clip 2 "America's chickens are coming home....">

<voiceover> This is the man that was part of Barack Obama's campaign. This is the man that The Obama's looked to for moral and spiritual leadership for two decades.

<clip 3 "God Damn America...">

<voiceover> If Barack Obama doesn't have the judgement to stay away from people like Pastor Wright, does he have the judgement to be Commander-in-Chief?

<clip #3 repeat>

<voiceover> You decide. </end>


You thought Kerry took it up the ass with the swifties? Man, even Republicans will feel sorry for Obama with this stuff.

[franksargent]

Yes, it did serve its purpose: He tried to calm down the shit storm that has erupted over his Pastor.

Most of it was platitude-filled nonsense. The parts that weren't were directed at disavowing Wright and separating himself from the man. It was also an excellent opportunity to play the race card again. Poor Barack Obama is just trying to unite the country. But he's up against so much! Not that whites are racist...no, no! It's just that there are so many people who want to make the campaign about race and race alone. And Yes, He Can Overcome!® That's what his speech was.

Of course, I think the speech may ultimately fail him, even if it was well written and well delivered. The central problem is that for many, there is no acceptable explanation for his association with Pastor Wright. The explanation that "his words are not mine" and "Of course I disagree with his inflammatory comments" is just not going to cut it here. Why? He associated with him for 20 years. His Pastor was an intimate part of his family's life. He married them. He baptized their children. His children sat in that church and heard some of the same inflammatory, disgusting rhetoric. Did Obama disavow it then? No. Did he change churches? No. He continued to have this man at his side for 20 years. It's not about race, it's about judgement.

Back at the Political Reality Ranch: Imagine what the GOP is going to do with this. Imagine the commerical:

<voiceover/black screen> This is Barack Obama's Pastor of 20 years.....

<clip 1 'United States of KKKA....">

<voiceover> This is the man that baptized Obama's children and provided moral guidance....

<clip 2 "America's chickens are coming home....">

<voiceover> This is the man that was part of Barack Obama's campaign. This is the man that The Obama's looked to for moral and spiritual leadership for two decades.

<clip 3 "God Damn America...">

<voiceover> If Barack Obama doesn't have the judgement to stay away from people like Pastor Wright, does he have the judgement to be Commander-in-Chief?

<clip #3 repeat>

<voiceover> You decide. </end>


You thought Kerry took it up the ass with the swifties? Man, even Republicans will feel sorry for Obama with this stuff.

Does anyone here value your opinion?

I'm sure there are a few, but Obama was never going to get their, or your, votes anyway. :D

Hyperbole, cynicism, sarcasm, rhetoric, venom, guilt by assocation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy) (or Association fallacy), hate, ire, bitter bile, the list of words that describes your view of Obama are endless! :p

Do me a favor, and go back to blowing on your (rhymes with busty) trombone. :)

[SDW2001]

Does anyone here value your opinion?

I'm sure there are a few, but Obama was never going to get their, or your, votes anyway. :D

Hyperbole, cynicism, sarcasm, rhetoric, venom, guilt by assocation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy) (or Association fallacy), hate, ire, bitter bile, the list of words that describes your view of Obama are endless! :p

Do me a favor, and go back to blowing on your (rhymes with busty) trombone. :)

If you can't contribute, then fuck off.

[SDW2001]

No one expects him to win over the dead-enders vote.

;)

Ahh...there's a term we haven't heard in a while. Thanks Shawn! But really...let me guess...the youth vote is going to do it for him? The moderates don't matter?

[franksargent]

If you can't contribute, then fuck off.

You delivered a continuous string of negatives, you call that a "contribution?" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

It's quite clear that you hate Obama, that's my objective contribution.

[midwinter]

You delivered a continuous string of negatives, you call that a "contribution?" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

It's quite clear that you hate Obama, that's my objective contribution.

Don't feel bad, Frank. He called me a "dick" in another thread.

[Fellowship]

Imagine what the GOP is going to do with this. Imagine the commerical:

<voiceover/black screen> This is Barack Obama's Pastor of 20 years.....

<clip 1 'United States of KKKA....">

<voiceover> This is the man that baptized Obama's children and provided moral guidance....

<clip 2 "America's chickens are coming home....">

<voiceover> This is the man that was part of Barack Obama's campaign. This is the man that The Obama's looked to for moral and spiritual leadership for two decades.

<clip 3 "God Damn America...">

<voiceover> If Barack Obama doesn't have the judgement to stay away from people like Pastor Wright, does he have the judgement to be Commander-in-Chief?

<clip #3 repeat>

<voiceover> You decide. </end>


Could it hurt him? Sure it could but only with people who are unaware of the speech he gave today. Toss in some out there who think he is a muslim anyway. Toss in some who think he agrees with and believes every single thing his pastor says. Toss in some "loyal to their grave" Republican types. Toss in a little of this and a little of that but at the end of the day I would argue that most fair minded Americans will see Barack Obama for who "He" is and not for who Fox News / Sean Hannity / Rush etc. paint him as.

Americans are sick of old style politics "including the remarks of his pastor" I would add and I believe most Americans can see that Obama is different in a good way.

Obama's politics are forward thinking while he borrows some of his message from historical figures who had vision and great integrity, guts and wisdom not everyone is going to be sold on the idea that Obama would be a horrible president as so many right wing cheer leaders suggest with their judgements / innuendos / distractions / talking points.

Were the pastor's statements uncalled for? angry? out of place" etc... YES

Did Obama address this? YES.

Respectfully

Fellows

[trumptman]

I fully find Obama to be a major source of good for this country and the world.

I'm going to one up you. Obama is a major source of good for the solar system and Saturn and several of it's associated moons.

I'm going to withhold judgment until I see him fight Morpheus in the simulator.

He's doing much better since they uploaded the nicorette program.

I think it was a good speech. I think it served its purpose.

I was hoping for a little more feiry passion -- a speech that could not only fix the problem, but turn it around to his advantage. That was my only disappointed.

But considering today's political discourse, this speech was still a thousand times better than most.

Agreed. However I don't think it will turn it to his advantage. The damage is already done. He is no longer the savior/chosen one.

No one expects him to win over the dead-enders vote.

;)

Really?!? I thought we had a thread on here where it was sworn over and over there were large blocks of people who were going to vote for him until they learned his middle name.

[Flounder]

Really?!? I thought we had a thread on here where it was sworn over and over there were large blocks of people who were going to vote for him until they learned his middle name.


Who says those are same groups?

[midwinter]

He's doing much better since they uploaded the nicorette program.


Hehehehe.

[mydo]

I know everyone has their Obama colored glasses on. But he's in a pinch over this. He went from "I never heard any of that." to "I heard that and more. He aint heavy. He's my brother." Why wasn't he honest the first time around?


PO view of Obama...
http://tinypic.com/2i7kzzr.jpg

[mydo]

Quotes?

"Mother; I always love her; My mother; So treat her right, treat her right"

Just joking. He made a speech earlier in the week with the "Uhhhh I wasn't there for that" and now we're at "you need to understand". I'll dig some up if I'm bored.

[midwinter]

Just joking. He made a speech earlier in the week with the "Uhhhh I wasn't there for that" and now we're at "you need to understand". I'll dig some up if I'm bored.

Obama didn't say "yeah, I totally heard him make that crack about the KKK andgod damn America." He said he *didn't* hear that stuff. He said he heard *other* stuff.

[MajorMatt]

Who among us does not know a friend of many years who has done something or said something controversial?

Condemn the act or words, but to condemn a person overall. That is not right, that is viewing the world through a lens of black and white. It's like saying we're either perfect or not perfect people.

Who among us is perfect?

[Fellowship]

Who among us does not know a friend of many years who has done something or said something controversial?

Condemn the act or words, but to condemn a person overall. That is not right, that is viewing the world through a lens of black and white. It's like saying we're either perfect or not perfect people.

Who among us is perfect?

I am not perfect... and it is ok.

Fellows

[SDW2001]

Could it hurt him? Sure it could but only with people who are unaware of the speech he gave today.

Most analysts felt it was a good speech, but not one to convince people to vote for him.

Toss in some out there who think he is a muslim anyway.

That's a negligible number, I think.



Toss in some who think he agrees with and believes every single thing his pastor says.

Another negligible number.

Toss in some "loyal to their grave" Republican types.

And those who think he's inexperienced, disagree with him, and just like McCain better....

Toss in a little of this and a little of that but at the end of the day I would argue that most fair minded Americans will see Barack Obama for who "He" is and not for who Fox News / Sean Hannity / Rush etc. paint him as.

That was a little cheap. There are plenty of fair-minded people that simply will not vote for him. They feel he's inexperienced. They disagree with him on most issues. They don't want national healthcare, higher taxes, nor do they want someone with no experience dealing with the overall economy.



Americans are sick of old style politics "including the remarks of his pastor" I would add and I believe most Americans can see that Obama is different in a good way.

Old style politics? This line has been used by Obama quite a bit. I fail to see how it's old style politics to question someone's judgement and associations. Also...did the Republicans order these clips be released? If someone did it as an attack, it was likely Hillary.



Obama's politics are forward thinking while he borrows some of his message from historical figures who had vision and great integrity, guts and wisdom not everyone is going to be sold on the idea that Obama would be a horrible president as so many right wing cheer leaders suggest with their judgements / innuendos / distractions / talking points.

Actually, I disagree. Obama's politics are quite backward-thinking. Listen to him on the war, for example. As for what kind of a President he would make, we'll see what people think. It's certainly not just the "right wing" that isn't comfortable with him.

Anecdotal example: My now girlfriend (just official the other night!) is a registered Democrat (whahhh da...huh?) ;) She will simply not vote for Obama. She would vote for Hillary over him. That said, in the general she'll likely vote for McCain. Why? Because she feels in comparison that he's m most qualified. She feels Obama does not have the experience and hasn't been well-vetted. Just one example, I realize...but there are many like her.



Were the pastor's statements uncalled for? angry? out of place" etc... YES

Did Obama address this? YES.

Respectfully

Fellows

He only addressed it because he had to. He didn't explain how he could be associated with the man for 20 years. Why didn't he say something to the man? It's a question of judgment, fellows.

[Fellowship]

That was a little cheap.

No actually I made it a point to listen to Sean Hannity on air yesterday.

I stand by what I said... And I would argue that there is nothing cheap about what I said. I just made a point that the American people will form their own opinions and not need any help.

Fellows

[SDW2001]

No actually I made it a point to listen to Sean Hannity on air yesterday.

I stand by what I said... And I would argue that there is nothing cheap about what I said. I just made a point that the American people will form their own opinions and not need any help.

Fellows

What I meant was the implication that anyone "fair-minded" would agree with him..and you.

[trumptman]

Who among us does not know a friend of many years who has done something or said something controversial?

Condemn the act or words, but to condemn a person overall. That is not right, that is viewing the world through a lens of black and white. It's like saying we're either perfect or not perfect people.

Who among us is perfect?

Say it once and it is controversial. Say it for twenty years and it is a world view.

[Fellowship]

What I meant was the implication that anyone "fair-minded" would agree with him..and you.

Ok I can understand that.

Fellows

[midwinter]

Say it once and it is controversial. Say it for twenty years and it is a world view.

Who's been saying what for 20 years?

[BRussell]

Who among us does not know a friend of many years who has done something or said something controversial?

Condemn the act or words, but to condemn a person overall. That is not right, that is viewing the world through a lens of black and white. It's like saying we're either perfect or not perfect people.

Who among us is perfect?

I believe the correct term is "amongst."

[Jubelum]

I believe the correct term is "amongst."

:rolleyes:

[@_@ Artman]

"And one other thing I think we've gotta remember. As easy as it is for those of us who are white, to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!'...I grew up in a very segregated south. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only Conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told 'you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus...' And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me."

- Mike Huckabee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTFLOu8fjxU)

[franksargent]

Who's been saying what for 20 years?
Horton? Dr. Seuss?

[Northgate]

How many good, upstanding, hard working, white folks in the South attend church and haven't been exposed to a fair amount of hard-hitting rhetoric that condemns the government? Do we really need to start pulling the DVD's of all the White Church/White Pastor sermons that every Republican running for office has attended?

Let me ask all you "It's a world view" types a question? Are you SURE, without a shadow of doubt, that there is no evidence of a white pastor at a white church saying "and goddamn America for not passing a marriage amendment", "and goddamn America for for even considering amnesty", and "goddamn America for desegregation". I'm sure there's more inflammatory things I could've used as illustrative examples. But the question is the same...

Are you sure?

P.S. - I'm confident that, as we speak, there is an army of liberal bloggers culling through mountains of videotaped sermons by pastors at John McCain's church. I can't remember which church he belongs to. I believe he changed from his original church to a Baptist church in order to run for president.

[addabox]

How many good, upstanding, hard working, white folks in the South attend church and haven't been exposed to a fair amount of hard-hitting rhetoric that condemns the government? Do we really need to start pulling the DVD's of all the White Church/White Pastor sermons that every Republican running for office has attended?

Let me ask all you "It's a world view" types a question? Are you SURE, without a shadow of doubt, that there is no evidence of a white pastor at a white church saying "and goddamn America for not passing a marriage amendment", "and goddamn America for for even considering amnesty", and "goddamn America for desegregation". I'm sure there's more inflammatory things I could've used as illustrative examples. But the question is the same...

Are you sure?

P.S. - I'm confident that, as we speak, there is an army of liberal bloggers culling through mountains of videotaped sermons by pastors at John McCain's church. I can't remember which church he belongs to. I believe he changed from his original church to a Baptist church in order to run for president.

Right. Which is why I posted the link to the Glenn Greenwald article at Salon making this point.

Pat Robertson thinks we brought 9/11 down on our heads by being sinful. Pat Robertson gets invited to the White House. Anyone yelling and screaming about how Pat Robertson hates America, and that all that associate with him have some explaining to do?

Can someone explain to me the difference between "we brought 9/11 on ourselves by having racist, imperialistic foreign policies" and "we brought 9/11 on ourselves by straying from the word of God"? In fact, isn't the latter the larger attack on America, since it is predicated on the debased quality of our very culture, instead of finding fault with our foreign policy?

John McCain's spiritual guide Hagee thinks New Orleans had it coming and Catholicism is evil. That issue arose briefly, McCain tossed a few "don't necessarily agree with everything the guy says" and that was it. If a black clergyman decides that, say, midwestern tornadoes are just payback for white racism, or that the Jews are Satan's agents on earth, think that's going to get a similar pass? And if it's a black clergyman who has come out for Obama?

Again, the only difference between the white and black pulpit version of "America is fucked and deserves to suffer unless it cleans up its act" is the perceived nature of the shortcoming.

The one goes on routinely without comment, the other freaks everybody out and is used as a cudgel against the first viable black presidential candidate in the nation's history.

Gee, it sure is hard being a white Christian, these days.

[Outsider]

McCain's Religious connections (http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/the_mccainhagee_connection_1.php)

On Jews being responsible for their own persecution:
Their[the Jews] own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.

McCain's boy is also extremely anti-Catholic (gee, there can't be many of those around anymore).

[addabox]

McCain's Religious connections (http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/the_mccainhagee_connection_1.php)

On Jews being responsible for their own persecution:


McCain's boy is also extremely anti-Catholic (gee, there can't be many of those around anymore).

Yeah, but McCain horsed around with the reporters a little bit, fed 'em some barbeque, so it's all good. We will never speak of it again.

Depressingly, I see this as the template for the presidential campaign: whatever McCain does or has done, he's "just being McCain", a context helpfully prevetted for us by his buddies the national media.

Obama or Clinton, on the other hand, will get the same old "Drudge rules their world" playbook, with scurrilous talk from the right wing fever swamps working their way up the food chain until they become fodder for the mainstream press, who can do endless meta-talk about the "controversy" and the controversy surrounding the controversy, ad nauseam.

And, of course, any isolated instances of any actual journalism breaking out in the vicinity of McCain will be massively decried as proof of the liberal media's animus for the man and their country.

By the way, Bush and McCain go to Iraq, and the next day the Iraqi leadership solemnly agrees with McCain's take on the war, nearly word for word. Using the country you invaded under false pretenses as a campaign tool: priceless. Newsworthy? Not so much.

[Northgate]

Yup. The hypocritical stench is smelling up the place.

[SpamSandwich]

"A More Perfect Union" (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGBbJv)

But damn, I had to read his speech because I slept right through it. :no:

Judging from the comments here, it would seem, the Obama experience is way better, in the first person sense.

Once his speech is posted to Youtube (or whatever), I'd really appreciate someone posting a link to it. 8-)

EDIT: Nevermind it's on the link I just posted.

Well, it may just be that you've discovered Mr. Obama provides the same old empty rhetoric in a shiny new package. I'm really shocked (although I shouldn't be) at some of the people who have fallen in love with him and they don't really know what he stands for.

I know what Hillary stands for and I don't like it... I know what McCain stands for and I don't like it... I don't know what Barack stands for exactly, but he's a likable guy. I would likely not support his politics.

[SpamSandwich]

A really thought provoking speach. My favorite parts:

He certainly is a lyrical speechwriter and a great speaker. If only he had the intellectual honesty of a libertarian willing to get government out of our houses and pocketbooks and let all Americans exercise their freedoms in all aspects of their lives to make this a more perfect union.

[SDW2001]

How many good, upstanding, hard working, white folks in the South attend church and haven't been exposed to a fair amount of hard-hitting rhetoric that condemns the government? Do we really need to start pulling the DVD's of all the White Church/White Pastor sermons that every Republican running for office has attended?

If you can find that kind of racism and anti-Americanism, I'd be surprised. Either way, it's simply not the same thing. They're not national political figures going to the churches in question, and having the Pastor being intimately involved in their lives.



Let me ask all you "It's a world view" types a question? Are you SURE, without a shadow of doubt, that there is no evidence of a white pastor at a white church saying "and goddamn America for not passing a marriage amendment", "and goddamn America for for even considering amnesty", and "goddamn America for desegregation". I'm sure there's more inflammatory things I could've used as illustrative examples. But the question is the same...

Find me the links, the clips, etc. Then we'll talk. You're just speculating right now.



Are you sure?

P.S. - I'm confident that, as we speak, there is an army of liberal bloggers culling through mountains of videotaped sermons by pastors at John McCain's church. I can't remember which church he belongs to. I believe he changed from his original church to a Baptist church in order to run for president.

Again, I seriously doubt they'll find things that rise to the level of what Obama's Pastor did. Even if somehow those comments did exist, you'd have to show that McCain had the same kind of relationship with those people as Obama had. You'd have to show a long term and rather intimate relationship. Good luck.

[franksargent]

Well, it may just be that you've discovered Mr. Obama provides the same old empty rhetoric in a shiny new package. I'm really shocked (although I shouldn't be) at some of the people who have fallen in love with him and they don't really know what he stands for.

I know what Hillary stands for and I don't like it... I know what McCain stands for and I don't like it... I don't know what Barack stands for exactly, but he's a likable guy. I would likely not support his politics.

... I see. :lol:

[jamac]

If you can find that kind of racism and anti-Americanism, I'd be surprised. Either way, it's simply not the same thing. They're not national political figures going to the churches in question, and having the Pastor being intimately involved in their lives.


Funny thing...
Obama, was not a national political figure at the time.... He was still just dreaming. (Sept 16, 2001)

How intimate are you with your pastor and do you abide by everything he (she) ever said?
Do you remember his last sermon, and if you do why would they sell dvds of it?

Do you believe donations where up or down that day?

Are you a black man who grew up in the 50s, 60s?

[Northgate]

See. These answers above. This whole thing is so full of shit it isn't even funny.

I thought the swift-boat attacks were full of shit and would amount to nothing. But it took John Kerry down. WTF do swift-boats have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. But apparently it meant EVERYTHING. I was wrong.

My gut feeling is that these Wright attacks will amount to nothing. But, apparently, hate-radio (ironically) has waged war. They aint gonna be schooled by no uppity negro!

Unfortunately, this will probably work.

Does anyone really, honestly, think these Republican blowhards are truly appalled by this? Come on. This mock outrage worthy of an Academy Award.

[groverat]

SDW2001:

How about James Inhofe ( http://www.alternet.org/story/12909/), Republican Senator...
"One of the reason I believe the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America," Inhofe huffed, "is that the policy of our government has been to ask the Israelis, and demand it with pressure, not to retaliate in a significant way against the terrorist strikes that have been launched against them."

How about Jerry Falwell...
" “The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, people for the American Way . . . all of them who have tried to secularize America . . . I point the finger in their face and say, ‘You helped this happen.’”

How about Pat Robertson, who responded to Falwell's statement with...
"Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.."

How about John Hagee...
"All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that.

The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades.

So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment, and I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

Or how about Bush's spiritual adviser (in addition to Robertson), Kirbyjon Caldwell ( http://www.houstonpress.com/2001-09-27/news/bush-spiritual-adviser-blame-the-church-not-bin-laden/), who blamed 9/11 on a lack of prayerfulness...
"Now whyyyyy is that?" Caldwell shouted. "Because the church has failed to walk and operate in the power and authority that has been given only to the body of Christ."

Congressman and House whip Tom DeLay smiled and applauded behind him onstage as Caldwell continued.

"Had we as a body of Christ been focused and faithful and praying for bin Laden," declared Caldwell, "I don't know what would have happened. But I sure know he could have been shaken by the power of God.

"Don't forget this is power over practicality. With men and women some things are impossible. But with God all things are possible. It is not ours to reason, it is ours to be obedient. Had bin Laden been in our prayers for the last five years, who knows what would have happened, but we've not prayed for him. Just because a person is Muslim, crazy or a terrorist does not mean he or she cannot be arrested by the power of God."

How about books like The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left And Its Responsibility For 9/11 by Dinesh D'Souza, author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity?

How about Michael Marcavage...
"But we believe that God is in control of the weather. The day Bourbon Street and the French Quarter was flooded was the day that 125,000 homosexuals were going to be celebrating sin in the streets. We're calling it an act of God."

Watch Rod Parsley insult Americans ( http://matthewkowalski.blogspot.com/2008/01/rod-parsley-delivers-amazing-sermon.html). Listen to him shout and scream.
Watch Rod Parsley scream anti-gay rhetoric (http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/06/mccains-buddy-patriot-pastor-rod-parsleys-gay-bashing/), calling gay marriage proponents "forces of darkness".
Watch Parsley scream and howl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh503w_YLe4) about Christians going into battle against the left. "I CAME TO INCITE A RIOT!"

Keep pretending, SDW, keep pretending.

[midwinter]

Or just watch Jesus Camp.

[groverat]

There is no shortage.

But when one does not want to see one will not see.

[@_@ Artman]

SDW2001:

How about...

Keep pretending, SDW, keep pretending.

Thanks groverat. All this will do though is make SDW vanish from this thread like he always does whenever the truth comes to light

Don't forget that John Hagee is an endorser to John McCain (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1723759,00.html). John Hagee is the founder of the End Times group Christians United For Israel. They want the Second Coming (End of the World) and they want it as soon as possible.

Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig)

[steve666]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080320/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race;_ylt=AvBfArSgOv3bGOp9p_v7I70b.3QA

Obama is screwed

[Northgate]

It's amazing how shallow the American people are, isn't it?

[trumptman]

Who's been saying what for 20 years?

I didn't have to state a particular person or instance. I'm just noting the rule.

Well, it may just be that you've discovered Mr. Obama provides the same old empty rhetoric in a shiny new package. I'm really shocked (although I shouldn't be) at some of the people who have fallen in love with him and they don't really know what he stands for.

I know what Hillary stands for and I don't like it... I know what McCain stands for and I don't like it... I don't know what Barack stands for exactly, but he's a likable guy. I would likely not support his politics.

BINGO!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080320/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race;_ylt=AvBfArSgOv3bGOp9p_v7I70b.3QA

Obama is screwed

Seems like the false premise for him as been exposed. Hillary doesn't have presidential experience by being first lady. Obama isn't a uniter when he can't even unite his own party and his policies (what we can find of them) are nothing more than old wine in a new bottle.

[Northgate]

That is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. Like John W. McCain UNITED the Republican party during his campaign. :lol::lol::lol::lol: The same guy Rush Limbaugh and Laura Ingraham excoriated during his last throws of "unification"! The guy no one in the senate liked working with. The crank pot.

You're too funny Trumpy. Too funny.

Go ahead and support the old man who has to be reminded by Joe Lieberman who the f*cking enemy is! The guy can't think beyond his own cockpit let alone strategize beyond dinner time.

I LOVE this qualification that Dems must adhere to while the Republicans ran with the most inept president in generations and are going to nominate another one who can't remember what day it is.

[trumptman]

That is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. Like John W. McCain UNITED the Republican party during his campaign. :lol::lol::lol::lol: The same guy Rush Limbaugh and Laura Ingraham excoriated during his last throws of "unification"! The guy no one in the senate liked working with. The crank pot.

You're too funny Trumpy. Too funny.

Go ahead and support the old man who has to be reminded by Joe Lieberman who the f*cking enemy is! The guy can't think beyond his own cockpit let alone strategize beyond dinner time.

I LOVE this qualification that Dems must adhere to while the Republicans ran with the most inept president in generations and are going to nominate another one who can't remember what day it is.

You are welcome to show what sort of false premise McCain is running with that when exposed and investigated will crumble.

I don't think anyone has suggested that McCain united the entire Republican party and the reality is that most Republicans, myself included, have several very strong areas of disagreement with him.

It would sort of be the height of irony if a Republican were elected using public funds due to lack of enthusiasm within his own party while based in part on his passing of the act that limited political speech and caused the lack of enthusiasm in the first place.

It has just enough tortured and twisted logic in it to make sense to a Democrat. Too bad they will be the ones rationalizing why their likely candidate Obama, who signed a pledge to take public money will now be forgoing it so he can open himself up to more of that "corrupting influence."

That shows one area where I profoundly disagree with McCain. Yet given all that the man isn't contradicting himself. Find a clear contradiction and we can keep a watch on when the Democratic "Swiftboating" occurs using it.

[addabox]

Yeah. When the Democrats start their "swiftboating". Which is a term that doesn't mean anything, because Kerry was actually a coward and traitor who self inflicted his so called "wounds".

Except when the Dems do it, which they probably will, soon, in which case it will mean what those fucking liberals meant it to mean when they tried to smear the patriots that exposed the truth about Kerry.

See how the duplicity of liberals eats its own tail? They're so twisted in their thinking. I'm going to go lie down now.

[SDW2001]

Funny thing...
Obama, was not a national political figure at the time.... He was still just dreaming. (Sept 16, 2001)

So?



How intimate are you with your pastor and do you abide by everything he (she) ever said?

I'm not currently attending. However, it's not about Obama abiding by everything. That's a straw man.


Do you remember his last sermon, and if you do why would they sell dvds of it?

Totally irrelevant.



Do you believe donations where up or down that day?

Totally irrelevant.



Are you a black man who grew up in the 50s, 60s?

No, but thank you for leading me to my next point. Let's say I go to predominantly white church. Let's say part of the church's mission is to look out for the white european value system. In fact, it openly states it that is a commitment to the people of Europe. Then we'll add some rhetoric about how our government has taken so many tax dollars to support social welfare programs for minorities. For this, the Pastor will scream "God Damn America!" and "United States of La Raza." Of course, I will have gone to this church for 20 years. The Pastor will have baptized my children and performed my marriage ceremony. He helped me with my book title. He works on my national political campaign as well.

Yeah, I'm sure you'd be fine with that.



See. These answers above. This whole thing is so full of shit it isn't even funny.

I thought the swift-boat attacks were full of shit and would amount to nothing. But it took John Kerry down. WTF do swift-boats have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing. But apparently it meant EVERYTHING. I was wrong.

It spoke to Kerry's character. To my knowledge what they said has not been disproved.



My gut feeling is that these Wright attacks will amount to nothing. But, apparently, hate-radio (ironically) has waged war. They aint gonna be schooled by no uppity negro!

That's out of line. It's a perfectly legitimate story. Oh, and btw..this is not the Republicans this time. It's your own disaster of a party.



Unfortunately, this will probably work.

So it was all a planned attack then? Prove that. And, the beneficiary is Hillary anyway.



Does anyone really, honestly, think these Republican blowhards are truly appalled by this? Come on. This mock outrage worthy of an Academy Award.

They're not the only ones upset. It's changed the polling for the Democratic primaries...significantly.

[SDW2001]

SDW2001:

How about James Inhofe ( http://www.alternet.org/story/12909/), Republican Senator...
"One of the reason I believe the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America," Inhofe huffed, "is that the policy of our government has been to ask the Israelis, and demand it with pressure, not to retaliate in a significant way against the terrorist strikes that have been launched against them."

How about Jerry Falwell...
" “The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, people for the American Way . . . all of them who have tried to secularize America . . . I point the finger in their face and say, ‘You helped this happen.’”

How about Pat Robertson, who responded to Falwell's statement with...
"Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.."

How about John Hagee...
"All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that.

The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades.

So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment, and I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

Or how about Bush's spiritual adviser (in addition to Robertson), Kirbyjon Caldwell ( http://www.houstonpress.com/2001-09-27/news/bush-spiritual-adviser-blame-the-church-not-bin-laden/), who blamed 9/11 on a lack of prayerfulness...
"Now whyyyyy is that?" Caldwell shouted. "Because the church has failed to walk and operate in the power and authority that has been given only to the body of Christ."

Congressman and House whip Tom DeLay smiled and applauded behind him onstage as Caldwell continued.

"Had we as a body of Christ been focused and faithful and praying for bin Laden," declared Caldwell, "I don't know what would have happened. But I sure know he could have been shaken by the power of God.

"Don't forget this is power over practicality. With men and women some things are impossible. But with God all things are possible. It is not ours to reason, it is ours to be obedient. Had bin Laden been in our prayers for the last five years, who knows what would have happened, but we've not prayed for him. Just because a person is Muslim, crazy or a terrorist does not mean he or she cannot be arrested by the power of God."

How about books like The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left And Its Responsibility For 9/11 by Dinesh D'Souza, author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity?

How about Michael Marcavage...
"But we believe that God is in control of the weather. The day Bourbon Street and the French Quarter was flooded was the day that 125,000 homosexuals were going to be celebrating sin in the streets. We're calling it an act of God."

Watch Rod Parsley insult Americans ( http://matthewkowalski.blogspot.com/2008/01/rod-parsley-delivers-amazing-sermon.html). Listen to him shout and scream.
Watch Rod Parsley scream anti-gay rhetoric (http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2008/03/06/mccains-buddy-patriot-pastor-rod-parsleys-gay-bashing/), calling gay marriage proponents "forces of darkness".
Watch Parsley scream and howl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh503w_YLe4) about Christians going into battle against the left. "I CAME TO INCITE A RIOT!"

Keep pretending, SDW, keep pretending.


That's an impressive list! Kudos!

Unfortunately those quotes have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

[groverat]

SDW:

You wanted "racism and anti-Americanism" from right-wing preachers and there it is.

You ignore it, but that is to be expected. Your outrage and offense is reserved for preachers who disagree with you politically.

[trumptman]

I think anyone believing Republicans get a pass on this sort of thing should run a Nexis-Lexis search using the terms Bush and Bob Jones university.

[groverat]

"Obama" & "Wright" - 1.7 million hits
"Bush" & "Bob Jones" - 286,000 hits

"Wright" & "KKK" - 140,000 hits
"Falwell" & "homosexuals" - 205,000 hits

Quoth Jerry Falwell on 9/14/2001, "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9494/15blogmccainfalwellbb5.jpg

How much will McCain's flip-flop on Falwell hurt him? How much will it hurt him to have called Falwell an "agent of intolerance" when it helped him politically and then hugged him as a friend and spoke at his "university" when the association with Falwell when it helped him politically?

Is such blatant moral and spiritual duplicity to be expected in right-wing politics and right-wing faith? Is that not a concern?

[franksargent]

I think anyone believing Republicans get a pass on this sort of thing should run a Nexis-Lexis search using the terms Bush and Bob Jones university.

... the shear numbers of christians saying or espousing these things, for example;


List of American televangelists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_televangelists)

Joel Osteen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Osteen#Criticism)
Dominionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism)
Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps)
Pat Robertson controversies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies)
Jack Van Impe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Van_Impe)
Jimmy Swaggart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart)
Robert H. Schuller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Schuller)
Benny Hinn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn)
Jim Bakker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker)
Tammy Faye Messner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Faye_Bakker)
Focus on the Family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_on_the_family)
James Dobson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson)
William A. Donohue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Donohue)
Kenneth Copeland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Copeland)
Trinity Broadcasting Network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Broadcasting_Network)
Paul Crouch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Crouch)
Jan Crouch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Crouch)
Joyce Meyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Meyer)
John Hagee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee)
Jerry Falwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell#Controversies)
Rod Parsley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley)
Robert H. Schuller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Schuller)
Ted Haggard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard)

Christian evangelist scandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals)

[SDW2001]

SDW:

You wanted "racism and anti-Americanism" from right-wing preachers and there it is.

You ignore it, but that is to be expected. Your outrage and offense is reserved for preachers who disagree with you politically.

No, actually I didn't. I wanted similar or comprable comments from those as close to McCain as Wright was to Obama.

[SDW2001]

"Obama" & "Wright" - 1.7 million hits
"Bush" & "Bob Jones" - 286,000 hits

"Wright" & "KKK" - 140,000 hits
"Falwell" & "homosexuals" - 205,000 hits

Quoth Jerry Falwell on 9/14/2001, "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9494/15blogmccainfalwellbb5.jpg

How much will McCain's flip-flop on Falwell hurt him? How much will it hurt him to have called Falwell an "agent of intolerance" when it helped him politically and then hugged him as a friend and spoke at his "university" when the association with Falwell when it helped him politically?

Is such blatant moral and spiritual duplicity to be expected in right-wing politics and right-wing faith? Is that not a concern?

You are swimming in the waters of intellectual dishonesty. And they are getting quite deep and cold.

It is not the same situation

.<-----gigantic period.

[trumptman]

... the shear numbers of christians saying or espousing these things, for example;


List of American televangelists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_televangelists)

Joel Osteen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Osteen#Criticism)
Dominionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism)
Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps)
Pat Robertson controversies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson_controversies)
Jack Van Impe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Van_Impe)
Jimmy Swaggart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart)
Robert H. Schuller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Schuller)
Benny Hinn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn)
Jim Bakker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker)
Tammy Faye Messner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Faye_Bakker)
Focus on the Family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_on_the_family)
James Dobson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dobson)
William A. Donohue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Donohue)
Kenneth Copeland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Copeland)
Trinity Broadcasting Network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Broadcasting_Network)
Paul Crouch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Crouch)
Jan Crouch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Crouch)
Joyce Meyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Meyer)
John Hagee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee)
Jerry Falwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Falwell#Controversies)
Rod Parsley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley)
Robert H. Schuller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Schuller)
Ted Haggard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard)

Christian evangelist scandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals)

You do realize that your list can see dead people?

[franksargent]

You do realize that your list can see dead people?

Yes, of course. That list is mainly those I've personally watched on numerous occasions over the years. :D

Now the obvious question would be, why do I watch these shows, given that I'm agnostic?

Oh, and I left off one notable, and recently deceased evangelical;

D. James Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kennedy_%28televangelist%29)

And from the old skool (a kinder and gentler era) I personally remember; Billy Graham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham), Rex Humbard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Humbard), Oral Roberts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Roberts), and Fulton J. Sheen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_Sheen)

Ah, the good old days. :\

[Northgate]

You are swimming in the waters of intellectual dishonesty. And they are getting quite deep and cold.

It is not the same situation

.<-----gigantic period.

Whoa! Did you see that? That goal post just moved from way over there to all the way over there in a millisecond!!! It almost his my car! Wow. You gotta see this! Get my camera!
:lol::lol::lol:

[groverat]

SDW:

First of all, I already quoted Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Houston-area leader whose services Bush attended many times. He blamed 9/11 on a lack of prayerfulness in America, that our turning away from god brought down these terrors on us.

(Incidentally, Caldwell has endorsed Obama.)

Beyond that...

I never said McCain/Falwell and Obama/Wright were the exact same thing. As a matter of fact, I address just that in a very direct an open way, even asking questions (which you predictably failed to answer) to highlight the differences.

How close was Wright to Obama? What was the nature of their closeness?

The issue at hand is whether or not these potential presidential candidates show good judgment, right?
The issue at hand is whether or not we can trust those people these potential presidents choose to help him make decisions, right?

The Wright circus is just that, a circus. Wright has little, if anything, to do with Obama as a presidential candidate. Obama has not used Wright as a political tool to help his chances of election (as McCain has used Falwell). Obama has not waffled on his association with Wright (as McCain has with Falwell).


trumptman:

Can you explain why the fact that some of those people are dead matters in this conversation?

[trumptman]

trumptman:

Can you explain why the fact that some of those people are dead matters in this conversation?

It probably has something to do with the physically being dead.

[addabox]

I think anyone believing Republicans get a pass on this sort of thing should run a Nexis-Lexis search using the terms Bush and Bob Jones university.

Yeah! That whole firestorm of controversy that dominated headlines for weeks and cost Bush the presidency! They're still talking about it!

And, man, you didn't even mention what a huge deal the liberal media has made out of the fact that Bush is packing the government with graduates from barely accredited "christian" Regent law school, founded by the Pat Robertson who thinks America deserved 9/11. You know, the Pat Robertson that is a close personal adviser to Bush and gets invited to the White House all the time, in between explaining why American judges are worse than the 9/11 terrorists, how 50% of the countries citizens are "worse than Nazis" and how natural disasters that strike American cities are fully justified.

Man, the damn liberal media won't shut up about all that!

[groverat]

trumptman:

It probably has something to do with the physically being dead.

I guess I'll ask again:
Can you explain why the fact that some of those people are dead matters in this conversation?

[addabox]

You are swimming in the waters of intellectual dishonesty. And they are getting quite deep and cold.

It is not the same situation

.<-----gigantic period.

How, in any way that is meaningful in regards to the larger conversation, are they different?

Many powerful Republican politicians routinely attend church services led by men who think America is fallen, that we brought 9/11 on ourselves, that close to half the country is made up of wicked people who are hastening our doom, that are, in fact, evil, and that broad swaths of American culture are so debased as to invite our defeat at the hands of our enemies.

George Bush is "intimately" involved with a man who thinks all those things, and, beyond just sitting in his congregation, has moved to include him in discussions of foreign and domestic policy while installing hundreds of men and women steeped in his ideology throughout the United States government.

Hey, come to think of it, it's not the same situation. It's far, far worse.

Of course, you already knew that, since the liberal media, desperate to hurt the right, has striven mightily to educate us about such things.

[Northgate]

Yeah! That whole firestorm of controversy that dominated headlines for weeks and cost Bush the presidency! They're still talking about it!

And, man, you didn't even mention what a huge deal the liberal media has made out of the fact that Bush is packing the government with graduates from barely accredited "christian" Regent law school, founded by the Pat Robertson who thinks America deserved 9/11. You know, the Pat Robertson that is a close personal adviser to Bush and gets invited to the White House all the time, in between explaining why American judges are worse than the 9/11 terrorists, how 50% of the countries citizens are "worse than Nazis" and how natural disasters that strike American cities are fully justified.

Man, the damn liberal media won't shut up about all that!

:lol::lol::lol: I love you sometimes, Adda. I really do!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[trumptman]

trumptman:



I guess I'll ask again:
Can you explain why the fact that some of those people are dead matters in this conversation?

Well last I checked, dead people don't head churches, give sermons, baptize children, unite people in marriage or even change with the times.

"Hey that Stephen Douglas, he needs to get with the times and stop pressing for secession from the Union."

"Uh.. he's dead. He can't really press for anything anymore."

What do you want to do? Pull their corpses out of the ground and tell them they were wrong?!?

[groverat]

trumpt:

Well last I checked, dead people don't head churches, give sermons, baptize children, unite people in marriage or even change with the times.

But some dead people once did all of those things, and their influence often remains. The object of devotion of the religion of these people ostensibly died 2000 years ago, after all. Ideas and attitudes do not die with the person who had them.

[franksargent]

It probably has something to do with the physically being dead.

I've seen Kennedy and Sheen on the TV long after they passed away, and of those two, it's no contest, Sheen wins hands down.

[franksargent]

Yeah! That whole firestorm of controversy that dominated headlines for weeks and cost Bush the presidency! They're still talking about it!

And, man, you didn't even mention what a huge deal the liberal media has made out of the fact that Bush is packing the government with graduates from barely accredited "christian" Regent law school, founded by the Pat Robertson who thinks America deserved 9/11. You know, the Pat Robertson that is a close personal adviser to Bush and gets invited to the White House all the time, in between explaining why American judges are worse than the 9/11 terrorists, how 50% of the countries citizens are "worse than Nazis" and how natural disasters that strike American cities are fully justified.

Man, the damn liberal media won't shut up about all that!

... over the last 70 year the bottom three will be; Carter, followed by Chimpy MacFlightsuit, followed by Tricky Dick. :D