81% in Poll Say Nation Is Headed on Wrong Track

[ronaldo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us/04poll.html?ei=5065&en=701f7a0c0a5d183c&ex=1207972800&adxnnl=1&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1207310831-lEFJAyE0ER+h7EMbIZDnDw

If 81 % of the people polled believe the country is headed in the wrong direction then it probably is.

Here are my ideas for getting the country back in the right direction:

1. End the war in Iraq now. What are we accomplishing by being there anyway.? We are just wasting billions of dollars a month that could be used here to improve the infrastructure of this country and to help improve peoples lives.

2. Get rid of the Federal Reserve. Why do we need a privately owned corporation controlling the economy of the country.

3. Do away with NAFTA and any other so-called free trade agreements. They have done nothing but cost Americans jobs. Again I say. no jobs, no tax base.

4. Change the federal tax laws to a flat tax rate. The government will still have more money than it needs.

There are probably many more things that could be done, but these are my top 4.

By the way, I do not believe that of the people running for president, be it Democrat, or Republican have the smarts to turn the good old USA around.

What do you all think could be done to change this mess we are in?

[Jubelum]

Here are my ideas for getting the country back in the right direction:

1. End the war in Iraq now. What are we accomplishing by being there anyway.? We are just wasting billions of dollars a month that could be used here to improve the infrastructure of this country and to help improve peoples lives.

2. Get rid of the Federal Reserve. Why do we need a privately owned corporation controlling the economy of the country.

3. Do away with NAFTA and any other so-called free trade agreements. They have done nothing but cost Americans jobs. Again I say. no jobs, no tax base.

4. Change the federal tax laws to a flat tax rate. The government will still have more money than it needs.

There are probably many more things that could be done, but these are my top 4.


Those are an excellent start. I think the chance of any of those things happening is next to zero, though.

[sammi jo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us/04poll.html?ei=5065&en=701f7a0c0a5d183c&ex=1207972800&adxnnl=1&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1207310831-lEFJAyE0ER+h7EMbIZDnDw

If 81 % of the people polled believe the country is headed in the wrong direction then it probably is.

Here are my ideas for getting the country back in the right direction:

1. End the war in Iraq now. What are we accomplishing by being there anyway.? We are just wasting billions of dollars a month that could be used here to improve the infrastructure of this country and to help improve peoples lives.

Agreed. If we couldn't end it 5 years ago ("mission accomplished"), or 3 years ago, or a year ago, or now, then why should one year, or 3 years or 5 years (or 20, 60, 100 years) into the future be considered any more appropriate? As long as US troops are there, people will be fighting them.... nobody in any country wants foreign occupiers. The time that will really see the end of the war is when the troops realize that the mission is a waste of lives and is a negative accomplishment in every way. This perception has already started: did anyone here watch the recent Winter Soldier hearings in DC? (The mainstream media blacked the entire event).

2. Get rid of the Federal Reserve. Why do we need a privately owned corporation controlling the economy of the country.

We don't. It's another mega-scam we could well do without. Abolish the "Fed" and the artificial "debt" owed to the "Fed" by the Treasury, slash personal income tax, and we would be on better ground to start an economic recovery, and maybe even be fit to compete with communist China.

3. Do away with NAFTA and any other so-called free trade agreements. They have done nothing but cost Americans jobs. Again I say. no jobs, no tax base.

The chances of an Obama or Clinton presidency doing away with NAFTA etc. etc. are somewhere around 0%.

4. Change the federal tax laws to a flat tax rate. The government will still have more money than it needs.

The flat tax idea is relevant in a society where the disparity in pay between the wealthy and the poor is still within limits that have a pretence at "civilized". When the disparity ratio approaches 1:1800 (or more), and keeps rising, the notion of a flat tax is a joke.

[midwinter]

The more important question is this: why do only 19% of Americans love their country?

[tonton]

The more important question is this: why do only 19% of Americans love their country?

Because the country is only lovable to 19%.

The other 81% are getting the shit end of the stick.

[tonton]

The flat tax idea is relevant in a society where the disparity in pay between the wealthy and the poor is still within limits that have a pretence at "civilized". When the disparity ratio approaches 1:1800 (or more), and keeps rising, the notion of a flat tax is a joke.

Exactly.

[mydo]

2. Get rid of the Federal Reserve. Why do we need a privately owned corporation controlling the economy of the country.



The Fed is not privately owned.

[midwinter]

The Fed is not privately owned.

It ain't exactly public, either. It's a mishmash of public and private.

[mydo]

It ain't exactly public, either. It's a mishmash of public and private.

Yea but the head is appointed by an elected official and is all made legal by federal law.

[sammi jo]

Yea but the head is appointed by an elected official and is all made legal by federal law.

So that legitimizes it? :lol::wow:

[ronaldo]

The Fed is not privately owned.

It is privately owned. As this court decision shows from 1982.

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

Also a little more interesting stuff.

The Federal Reserve is neither Federal, nor a reserve. It is a private bank that was established in 1913. It is owned privately - by people who could afford and had the power to start a central bank in 1913. It has never been audited. It controls the money supply.
The Federal Reserve controls the money supply by deciding to increase or decrease interest rates and whether to create more money. The whole point is to create a stable and steady economy. The U.S. dollar is NOT backed by gold. It is nothing more than a promissory note - a debt instrument. Fiat currencies are inherently flawed and doomed to eventual failure. Fiat currencies are easy to manipulate and that is significant problem.

Let Congress take care of the money as the constitution says they are supposed to.

In Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, the people of the United States granted Congress the power "to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures." The people never gave congress the constitutional power to delegate this money-creating and regulating responsibility to any private group. 


[jimmac]

The more important question is this: why do only 19% of Americans love their country?


I think an even more interesting question how is it that we elected a president that those 19% think is doing the right thing twice.:wow:

[Jubelum]

And a little more interesting stuff... THIS (http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal-Reserve/dp/0912986212) should be required reading for anyone dealing with the money system, inside or outside of government. We don't own our money. We're not trading value, we're trading debts to a central banks. And somehow having a collection of debts is now called "wealth." What an incredible scam.

Also... for those that want to get a good video primer... Money as Debt (video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279) on YouTube.

[mydo]

So that legitimizes it? :lol::wow:

In the law yes. Are you above the law? Is anyone?

[mydo]

It is privately owned. As this court decision shows from 1982.

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/frcourt.html

Also a little more interesting stuff.

The Federal Reserve is neither Federal, nor a reserve. It is a private bank that was established in 1913. It is owned privately - by people who could afford and had the power to start a central bank in 1913. It has never been audited. It controls the money supply.
The Federal Reserve controls the money supply by deciding to increase or decrease interest rates and whether to create more money. The whole point is to create a stable and steady economy. The U.S. dollar is NOT backed by gold. It is nothing more than a promissory note - a debt instrument. Fiat currencies are inherently flawed and doomed to eventual failure. Fiat currencies are easy to manipulate and that is significant problem.

Let Congress take care of the money as the constitution says they are supposed to.

In Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, the people of the United States granted Congress the power "to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures." The people never gave congress the constitutional power to delegate this money-creating and regulating responsibility to any private group. 



<kif>egh</kif>

Yes I know about the history of the federal banks. The individual bank are private corporations but they do what the board tells them to do. You can't just say "they are privately owned" dust your hands off and click your brain off. The board is nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate. So the fed is controlled by people nominated and confirmed by elected officials. Kinda like the judicial branch.

[hardeeharhar]

Fiat currencies are inherently flawed and doomed to eventual failure. 

:rolleyes:

seriously, just because you don't understand fiat currencies doesn't mean they are doomed to failure...

there is no need to back currency up with a physical good since, well, since prices for all other goods are arbitrarily created based upon the perceived value of the entity. it doesn't matter if i am trading actual nuggets of gold or virtual credits, once you realize that prices and value are complete psychological constructs, the economy becomes completely and irrevocably distanced from reality. the desire to hold onto currency as a proxy for a physical good is sweet and endearing, but ultimately irrational...

[midwinter]

I think an even more interesting question how is it that we elected a president that those 19% think is doing the right thing twice.:wow:

Well, that just tells you that 19% of the population love Bush so much that he would have to eat a baby on the white house lawn in front of the press to make them dislike him.

[Frank777]

I don't recall in my lifetime people ever thinking the country was on the right track.

[addabox]

I don't recall in my lifetime people ever thinking the country was on the right track.

The "seriously off the rails" figure is up from 35% in '03. Or did you mean Canada?

[Frank777]

The "seriously off the rails" figure is up from 35% in '03. Or did you mean Canada?

I was thinking about both. I was just pointing out that polls like this tend to skew negative anyway.

With the current economic and wartime climate, I think it's completely surprising that only 35% chose the "seriously messed up" option. Maybe America really is a nation of optimists.

[SpamSandwich]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us/04poll.html?ei=5065&en=701f7a0c0a5d183c&ex=1207972800&adxnnl=1&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1207310831-lEFJAyE0ER+h7EMbIZDnDw

If 81 % of the people polled believe the country is headed in the wrong direction then it probably is.

Here are my ideas for getting the country back in the right direction:

That's funny, they sound a lot like Ron Paul's points. Are you sure they're your ideas?

[midwinter]

I don't recall in my lifetime people ever thinking the country was on the right track.

Are you an American?

[hardeeharhar]

You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. You're in the deep end of the pool, best to get out fast. Educating yourself on monetary systems (both fiat and sound) will help. Understanding banking (including free banking and central banking) will also help.
uh huh... and the fact that your only retort is unrelated to anything i said proves that you are either illiterate or incapable of thinking beyond what you claim to know...

[ronaldo]

:rolleyes:

seriously, just because you don't understand fiat currencies doesn't mean they are doomed to failure...

there is no need to back currency up with a physical good since, well, since prices for all other goods are arbitrarily created based upon the perceived value of the entity. it doesn't matter if i am trading actual nuggets of gold or virtual credits, once you realize that prices and value are complete psychological constructs, the economy becomes completely and irrevocably distanced from reality. the desire to hold onto currency as a proxy for a physical good is sweet and endearing, but ultimately irrational...

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't our entire monetary system just based on credit?
If our currency was backed by gold, or silver as it used to be there would be real value to our money.

[hardeeharhar]

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't our entire monetary system just based on credit?
If our currency was backed by gold, or silver as it used to be there would be real value to our money.
no...

when the currency is backed by a physical object, the value of goods to an individual is still a measure of supply and demand, and the psychology of that object -- how desirable it is, in essence... The only difference between this and fiat currency is the ability to then subsequently tack that price (after it has been decided upon and the irrationality of material exchange is already complete) onto the physical object the currency is related to. The ability to do this is largely irrelevant to the survival of the system. The benefits of fiat currency outweigh the costs, especially when considering that the supply of gold or other metals is finite and the economy can, in theory, grow infinitely (among many many other reasons for abandoning the need for gold stores).

As far as what our monetary system is based upon... The value of fiat currency is part of this psychological exchange of material, it is completely up to the individuals transacting through the currency. The same can be said about backed currency since the psychology of that transaction is identical...

[hardeeharhar]

:rolleyes:

Right...currency, prices, monetary systems, banking and central banks having nothing to do with one another. Again, you're in the deep end of the pool. You don't know what you're talking about.

Your statements:



Are quite simply wrong and dangerous (if they were held by someone who had power over such things)...oh wait...they are.
you are a waste of time...

[sammi jo]

In the law yes. Are you above the law?

Not that I'm aware of... :lol: However, if I told bald-faced lies in front of a federal commission, would I get away with it?

Is anyone?

Absolutely. In justice, you get what you pay for, and if you have the money and connections, you can get away with mass murder, or worse. If you are the law, you can get away with anything.

[SDW2001]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us/04poll.html?ei=5065&en=701f7a0c0a5d183c&ex=1207972800&adxnnl=1&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1207310831-lEFJAyE0ER+h7EMbIZDnDw

If 81 % of the people polled believe the country is headed in the wrong direction then it probably is.

Here are my ideas for getting the country back in the right direction:

1. End the war in Iraq now. What are we accomplishing by being there anyway.? We are just wasting billions of dollars a month that could be used here to improve the infrastructure of this country and to help improve peoples lives.

Why, so people can feel good about it? They're elected leaders apparently don't think they have the support to end it. They've tried about 50 times since 2006 and failed.

The comments about infrastructure here vs. there amount to a false dilemma. You don't really think we'd spend that money wisely here, do you?




2. Get rid of the Federal Reserve. Why do we need a privately owned corporation controlling the economy of the country.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I might. I haven't fully thought that one through.



3. Do away with NAFTA and any other so-called free trade agreements. They have done nothing but cost Americans jobs. Again I say. no jobs, no tax base.

They've done quite a bit more than that, so it's a very shallow view you have there. I think what you mean is that you perceive it to be this way. In reality NAFTA has done a lot of good. I'm not even saying I'm definitely in favor of it...just that it's not the root of all evil.



4. Change the federal tax laws to a flat tax rate. The government will still have more money than it needs

Well first, it will never happen. The bleeding hearts will scream "regressive tax! regressive tax!" But beyond that, it depends on how a flat tax was implemented. People were tossing around the idea of a 22% flat tax, which would frankly suck unless it replaced a whole host if other taxes.



There are probably many more things that could be done, but these are my top 4.

By the way, I do not believe that of the people running for president, be it Democrat, or Republican have the smarts to turn the good old USA around.

What do you all think could be done to change this mess we are in?

1. Secure the border/immigration reform.
2. Reform the tax code
3. Reform social programs to be ability based, not need based.
4. Cut federal spending by 10%, end earmarks.


1--I don't care if it's a wall or troops or cameras or guys with flame throwers...do it. Now. Then pass an immigration bill that makes sense..but only after the border is secured. Create a Guest Worker program with no fines, fees, etc...just register within 6 months and as long as you don't commit crimes, you can stay. No welfare or social services other than public ed and emergency care for you, though. Fail to register or commit a crime...bye bye!

2. How about this: Let's have a new progressive tax code with greatly reduced rates, but many fewer deductions. Let's get rid of the IRS entirely.
Everyone can do their taxes on a one page form. New marginal rates like this:

0-$10,000=0%
10,001-$30,000=5%
30,001-$60,000=7.5%
60,001-$90,000-10%
90,001-$120,000-12.5%
$120,001 and above=15%

But we'll get rid of business expense deductions for W-2 employees, child tax credits, XYX Form 5567QWEOMFGBBQLOL credits, etc. We'll have deductions for mortgage interest, other taxes paid and dependent/personal exemptions. That's all. We'd have so much money we wouldn't know what to do with it. Cheating would be virtually eliminated.

Then let's pass a 1% national sales tax and eliminate the payroll tax, giving every working American an immediate 12% raise. Oh, and we'll eliminate the estate tax and other nuisance taxes as well.

3. If you have the ability (mentally and physically) to get a job and support yourself, you don't get benefits. If you're sick or unable to work we take care of you at a reasonable living standard for as long as needed. We'll keep unemployment insurance and programs to make sure people don't go hungry.

4. No more bridges to islands where no one lives. Please, for the love of Christ.

[ronaldo]

Why, so people can feel good about it? They're elected leaders apparently don't think they have the support to end it. They've tried about 50 times since 2006 and failed.

The comments about infrastructure here vs. there amount to a false dilemma. You don't really think we'd spend that money wisely here, do you?




I'm not sure I agree with that. I might. I haven't fully thought that one through.



They've done quite a bit more than that, so it's a very shallow view you have there. I think what you mean is that you perceive it to be this way. In reality NAFTA has done a lot of good. I'm not even saying I'm definitely in favor of it...just that it's not the root of all evil.



Well first, it will never happen. The bleeding hearts will scream "regressive tax! regressive tax!" But beyond that, it depends on how a flat tax was implemented. People were tossing around the idea of a 22% flat tax, which would frankly suck unless it replaced a whole host if other taxes.



1. Secure the border/immigration reform.
2. Reform the tax code
3. Reform social programs to be ability based, not need based.
4. Cut federal spending by 10%, end earmarks.


1--I don't care if it's a wall or troops or cameras or guys with flame throwers...do it. Now. Then pass an immigration bill that makes sense..but only after the border is secured. Create a Guest Worker program with no fines, fees, etc...just register within 6 months and as long as you don't commit crimes, you can stay. No welfare or social services other than public ed and emergency care for you, though. Fail to register or commit a crime...bye bye!

2. How about this: Let's have a new progressive tax code with greatly reduced rates, but many fewer deductions. Let's get rid of the IRS entirely.
Everyone can do their taxes on a one page form. New marginal rates like this:

0-$10,000=0%
10,001-$30,000=5%
30,001-$60,000=7.5%
60,001-$90,000-10%
90,001-$120,000-12.5%
$120,001 and above=15%

But we'll get rid of business expense deductions for W-2 employees, child tax credits, XYX Form 5567QWEOMFGBBQLOL credits, etc. We'll have deductions for mortgage interest, other taxes paid and dependent/personal exemptions. That's all. We'd have so much money we wouldn't know what to do with it. Cheating would be virtually eliminated.

Then let's pass a 1% national sales tax and eliminate the payroll tax, giving every working American an immediate 12% raise. Oh, and we'll eliminate the estate tax and other nuisance taxes as well.

3. If you have the ability (mentally and physically) to get a job and support yourself, you don't get benefits. If you're sick or unable to work we take care of you at a reasonable living standard for as long as needed. We'll keep unemployment insurance and programs to make sure people don't go hungry.

4. No more bridges to islands where no one lives. Please, for the love of Christ.

Looks like some good ideas to me.

[midwinter]

I think it is a mistake to assume that people cheat on their taxes because the tax code is complicated.

[Jubelum]

OMFGBBQLOL credits, etc.

Taking away BBQLOL credits? Right before the summer grilling season? You heartless bastard.

[Jubelum]

I think it is a mistake to assume that people cheat on their taxes because the tax code is complicated.

complicated? maybe... but for sure the higher they go and the higher they stay, the more cheating you're going to see. It's funny to me that no one sees taxes as an economic hardship for middle class people. It can be. Over $5000 last year for property taxes for me for my homestead, in addition to sales, income, gas, and all the rest of the taxes that are without limit in number or level.

The answer is not in "who we soak" but in how much government we need to be paying for.

[SDW2001]

Taking away BBQLOL credits? Right before the summer grilling season? You heartless bastard.

Tighten your belt, bucko. Times are tough. :)


complicated? maybe... but for sure the higher they go and the higher they stay, the more cheating you're going to see. It's funny to me that no one sees taxes as an economic hardship for middle class people. It can be. Over $5000 last year for property taxes for me for my homestead, in addition to sales, income, gas, and all the rest of the taxes that are without limit in number or level.

The answer is not in "who we soak" but in how much government we need to be paying for.

Mid has a point. That said, the complexity makes it very easy to either screw up or just say "screw it" and do something that simplifies things.

As for taxes being a hardship...yes, damn right. I've paid $5000 in property taxes before...not fun. I'll be paying close to that when I move this summer. Fun times! At least I can write it off with my mortgage interest next year. I had to get creative this year without owning a home. Fortunately there is this thing in the AGI calculations called "Business expenses for certain fee based government officials, performing artists, etc." Ahh...how I love being involved in music. Then there was the child tax credit, dependent care expenses, etc.

But that's my point: I didn't even have to itemize. I have one employer and claimed one child as a divorced parent. It took me hours to do my federal taxes. I mean...worksheet after worksheet with 6 steps, multiplying by this decimal if your earned income is this, another decimal if it's that, then entering the result in three places on this form, so it can be transferred to that form. I mean...holy fvck.

[midwinter]

]Mid has a point. That said, the complexity makes it very easy to either screw up or just say "screw it" and do something that simplifies things.

That wasn't my point at all. This was my point:


BUSH: Because there’s two big issues. One is, who’s going to keep your taxes low? Most Americans feel overtaxed and I promise you the Democrat [sic] party is going to field a candidate who says I’m going to raise your tax.

If they’re going to say, oh, we’re only going to tax the rich people, but most people in America understand that the rich people hire good accountants and figure out how not to necessarily pay all the taxes and the middle class gets stuck.

We’ve had — we’ve been through this drill before. We’re only going to tax the rich and all you have to do is look at the history of that kind of language and see who gets stuck with the bill.

[SDW2001]

That wasn't my point at all. This was my point:

I'm not sure how that supports your point, to be honest.

[midwinter]

I'm not sure how that supports your point, to be honest.

The implication earlier was that one of the reasons people cheat on their taxes because they're complicated. I suggested that this was not the case. Bush's comment clearly states that taxing the rich hurts the middle classes because rich people hire accountants—experts in how to do taxes—to cheat on their taxes for them.

They're not cheating on taxes because they're complicated. They're cheating on taxes a) because they don't want to pay and b) because they can afford to hire someone to do it for them.

[SDW2001]

The implication earlier was that one of the reasons people cheat on their taxes because they're complicated. I suggested that this was not the case. Bush's comment clearly states that taxing the rich hurts the middle classes because rich people hire accountants—experts in how to do taxes—to cheat on their taxes for them.

They're not cheating on taxes because they're complicated. They're cheating on taxes a) because they don't want to pay and b) because they can afford to hire someone to do it for them.

Well I thought that much was obvious, but OK. I don't agree completely however, because the complexity makes it possible for them to cheat. Accountants won't be able to do much when we go from 500,000 possible deductions to about 5.

[midwinter]

Well I thought that much was obvious, but OK. I don't agree completely however, because the complexity makes it possible for them to cheat. Accountants won't be able to do much when we go from 500,000 possible deductions to about 5.

Sure, the complexity allows for the cheating to be concealed, but it does not create the cheating. It's not like someone is doing their taxes and says "Screw This! It's too complicated! I'm just going to cheat and not pay what I owe!"

[SDW2001]

Sure, the complexity allows for the cheating to be concealed, but it does not create the cheating. It's not like someone is doing their taxes and says "Screw This! It's too complicated! I'm just going to cheat and not pay what I owe!"

I agree with that.

[midwinter]

I agree with that.

No, you don't!

[addabox]

No, you don't!

Too late. It is done.

SDW's assent now marks you for all time.

[Jubelum]

Too late. It is done.

SDW's assent now marks you for all time.

:lol:

Does that letter come in any color other than scarlet? It clashes...

[ronaldo]

They've done quite a bit more than that, so it's a very shallow view you have there. I think what you mean is that you perceive it to be this way. In reality NAFTA has done a lot of good. I'm not even saying I'm definitely in favor of it...just that it's not the root of all evil.


Please explain what good NAFTA has done.

[SDW2001]

Please explain what good NAFTA has done.


http://www.ustr.gov/Document_Library/Fact_Sheets/2004/NAFTA_A_Decade_of_Success.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2489

Start there. You can still be against it, but portraying it as evil incarnate is going a bit far.

[Frank777]

Please explain what good NAFTA has done.

Neither Clinton nor Obama will do anything to even slow NAFTA.

In this case, Canada is way ahead of the U.S., as we've already had a Liberal government elected on the basis of "re-negotiating NAFTA", only for them to get elected and do exactly the opposite.

Prepare for the same thing to happen after November.

NAFTA has evolved into a defensive economic strategy. With European integration proceeding fast and China and India turning into economic powerhouse markets, NAFTA has become a way to give North American countries a "home market" that is big enough for them to genuinely compete with the other economic blocs.

I would welcome the opportunity to be able to discard economic blocs like NAFTA that threaten sovereignty. But unless you want even more of North American jobs dependent on the whims of those from other economies, NAFTA is somewhat necessary in the current climate.