Apple says Time Machine over AirPort Disk is unsupported feature

[AppleInsider]

AirPort Extreme owners using a recently resurrected feature of the WiFi routers that lets externally connected USB hard drives act as wireless backup volumes for Time Machine shouldn't come knocking on Apple's door if problems arise, the company now says.

Dubbed AirPort Disk, the functionality was once a highly touted feature of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard. But in the weeks leading up to the operating system's release last fall, Apple edited its website, removing all such references to the backup solution.

"With a hard disk connected to your AirPort Extreme Base Station, all the Macs in your house can use Time Machine to back up wirelessly," read one description of the feature that was redacted in October without explanation. "Simply select your AirPort Disk as the backup disk for each computer and the whole family can enjoy the benefits of Time Machine."

At the Macworld Expo a few months later, Apple appeared to introduce its answer to the missing feature in Time Capsule, a proprietary hardware solution that essentially pairs an AirPort Extreme with a built-in "server grade" hard drive for primary usage with Time Machine.

Though Time Capsule was a welcomed addition to Apple's product matrix, some customers remained frustrated over the company's silence on Time Machine's support of AirPort Disk given that they had purchased AirPort Extreme products in anticipation of the feature shipping as part of Leopard.

Last month, it seemed as if Apple was attempting to rectifying the situation through the release of a series of software and firmware updates, which re-enabled the ability to select USB hard drives connected to AirPort Extreme base stations as wireless backup volumes for Time Machine.

This now appears as if it was some kind of mistake on company's part, according to Tidbits' Glenn Fleishman. He recently mailed Apple with some questions regarding the feature for a review he was working on and received a reply from an unnamed representative stating that Time Machine backups over AirPort Disk is "an unsupported feature."

This means that should something go astray with a user's data backups, Apple isn't responsible and AppleCare reps will have no insight on how to properly diagnose and address the issue.

In his report, Fleishman noted that Apple has refused to provide a formal explanation of the matter. However, he speculates that AirPort Disk support was accidently re-enabled when a debugging feature wasn't properly shut off before the recent software updates were released.

This of course presents the likely possibility that Apple will once again disable the feature with a forthcoming update.[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=3936)

[TheSpecialist]

Be careful of coming software updates. They could be putting the option off again:wow:

[Achiever]

What a d**k move.

[fuyutsuki]

To quote Garth re: the Spider Donut:

Yeah, well … they'd better not!

[digitalclips]

Be careful of coming software updates. They could be putting the option off again:wow:

I have got mine working perfectly too! It has been running flawlessly for over a week. I will be l ticked off if were stooped by an update!

I can see one reason Apple have this problem, the initial backup is so painful if done wirelessly yet without the sparsebundle it doesn't work wirelessly.

Apple needs to add an option in the initial set up and allow a direct connection first backup to be done using the sparsebundle. It would then be really simple.

This is what is needed.
1. Back up with FireWire or USB2 directly from MacBook etc. selecting 'SparseBundle Option'.
2. Move hard drive to AE or TC.
3. No step 3.

As it is, and only thanks to guidance from this blog, I was able to get a tiny sparsebundle created wirelessly, then connect using FireWire to make the initial back up. Once done and back on the AE it worked perfectly. But what a flipping complicated route to have to go!

[mr_zebra]

This is starting to get very annoying.

They can't seem to make their minds up on whether this feature is going to be a feature or not. On, off, on off. I wish they'd just pick a strategy and stick with it.

[MacsRGood4U]

What a d**k move.

Yeah what the hell is Apple's problem? Why the F*(# can't they just provide a simple explanation, set the record straight, and then be done with it? And then they wonder why things get garbled all over the internet and users do things they apparently shouldn't. Why must everything be so god damn secretive, from a color change of a computer, to software release notes that tell you NOTHING about what will change after an update, to garbage like this.

I'm in a cranky mood today. OK. But Apple only has itself to blame for this mess because they advocated the feature. Had they not, and rumor sites report it, fine. Not their fault. But they very publicly told customers it was coming. Then they swept it under the rug and hoped no one was looking. Well PEOPLE WERE LOOKING. And there's A LOT OF OTHER DUST UNDER THERE

MRG

[Taylorman]

As I have posted twice before- in two other Appleinsider threads reviewing TIme Capsule and Time Machine over an AEBS using a USB disk-the latter was not EVER officially supported by Apple- and if Appleinsider had done some simple homework- a lot of people would have been saved the frustration of thinking that it was.

I wrote to Appleinsider directly about this- and I suppose this is there response. Thanks.

[nagromme]

In a glass half-full mode (apologies to the cranky ones!):

This back-and-forth error also presents the likely possibility that Apple is still working to FIX the feature :)

If they don't deliver that... well, pre-release features get canned from products all the time. It's nothing new, and there were disclaimers at the time as always. Touting a feature and then removing it BEFORE it goes on sale may be annoying but it's a fact of life with software.

The REAL mistake is in enabling the feature by accident in the last update. Apple may or may not ever explain that error in depth--but I expect some statement will be coming.

[CREB]

Plain and simple, Apple does not want the liability. That's okay though as the Mac community as always found a way around such matters while apple looks the other way...it has been the scheme of things since Apple's beginning. In other words, no bug deal.

[YakkoW]

As I have posted twice before- in two other Appleinsider threads reviewing TIme Capsule and Time Machine over an AEBS using a USB disk-the latter was not EVER officially supported by Apple- and if Appleinsider had done some simple homework- a lot of people would have been saved the frustration of thinking that it was.

But it WAS officially advertised by Apple.

That's where the frustration comes in.

[coolfactor]

This now appears as if it was some kind of mistake on company's part, according to Tidbits' Glenn Fleishman.
...
In his report, Fleishman noted that Apple has refused to provide a formal explanation of the matter. However, he speculates that AirPort Disk support was accidently re-enabled when a debugging feature wasn't properly shut off before the recent software updates were released.

The real disservice for users was done by news outlets (such as AppleInsider) that reported the "fact" that Apple re-enabled Time Machine backups to Airport Disks, when in fact, that was never the case. Before and after the recent Airport update, I was able to choose Airport Disks without any problems, as long as they were mounted. Nothing has changed in this respect.

Over at MacDailyNews, they even went so far as to try and build up their case that this "feature" was the real deal by posting screenshots. They never backed down, and now look at where we are.

A real shame that people were blinded by their wishful thinking.

[fjs]

There is a significant minority of AirPort Extreme (gigabit) customers who have non-functional units, in that they drop wireless connection several times per day. I cannot use mine, firmware 7.3.1 or not. The Time Capsule I bought has attached to the same network and been rock-solid since day one.

You do wonder if this is part of Apple's thinking -flaky design. The Time Capsule appears to be improved hardware.

But we will all end up speculating, for all we truly know is that when the Soviet Empire folded, all the Politburo members migrated to Apple's Customer Relations and PR Departments. No comment from them.

[MacsRGood4U]

The real disservice for users was done by news outlets (such as AppleInsider) that reported the "fact" that Apple re-enabled Time Machine backups to Airport Disks, when in fact, that was never the case. Before and after the recent Airport update, I was able to choose Airport Disks without any problems, as long as they were mounted. Nothing has changed in this respect.

Over at MacDailyNews, they even went so far as to try and build up their case that this "feature" was the real deal by posting screenshots. They never backed down, and now look at where we are.

A real shame that people were blinded by their wishful thinking.

Apple did re-enable the ability to use AirPort Disks as a backup under Time Machine with those updates. That is a FACT. It was not just reported here, but pretty much every other Mac site I read (which is many). Whether Apple intended to do it or not is not the question. Since Apple refuses to comment on pretty much everything these days that isnt in a press release, i'm not sure what you'd expect to read on the internet. You expect the people should just guess "OH MAYBE THIS IS A MISTAKE?"

Please, this is Apple's fault. This whole mess is. They advertised a feature. They took it away without explanation. They then brought it back silently (by mistake?). Now they say if you use it and it screws something up, don't come knocking on our door but refuse to provide any explanation? PLEASE. Then just issue a patch now that disables it with a note saying this feature IS NOT SUPPORT AND NEVER WILL BE, and END IT.

MRG

[coremonkey]

The reason they don't support it is because you obviously are using a 3rd party external hard drive. Apple never has supported 3rd party software or devices.

DUH.

[solipsism]

But it WAS officially advertised by Apple.

That's where the frustration comes in.


And it WAS officially advertised by Apple that features are subject to change.

[quinney]

Things were good, things were bad, things were good,
things were bad, good, bad, good, bad, gjgjdnnnbjfjjfdrrrrrfguh:p

[efithian@mac.com]

I have got mine working perfectly too! It has been running flawlessly for over a week. I will be l ticked off if were stooped by an update!

I can see one reason Apple have this problem, the initial backup is so painful if done wirelessly yet without the sparsebundle it doesn't work wirelessly.

Apple needs to add an option in the initial set up and allow a direct connection first backup to be done using the sparsebundle. It would then be really simple.

This is what is needed.
1. Back up with FireWire or USB2 directly from MacBook etc. selecting 'SparseBundle Option'.
2. Move hard drive to AE or TC.
3. No step 3.

As it is, and only thanks to guidance from this blog, I was able to get a tiny sparsebundle created wirelessly, then connect using FireWire to make the initial back up. Once done and back on the AE it worked perfectly. But what a flipping complicated route to have to go!

You can connect your macbook to the AEBS using ethernet and do the initial backup. You must turn off airport for this to work. When it is finished, turn airport back on and disconnect the ethernet. Do a forced backup and all should be fine. Worked for me. Creates a sparseimage. It has been working with a mac mini with gigabit ethernet and a macbook with wireless-g. Trying soon with a G5 wired ethernet.

[NOFEER]

so for the regular consumer, TC is the simplest answer BUT what happens when your TC hd is near full can then you add an external hd or do you buy a new TC

apple needs a home server with add on HD capability make them apple branded hd's i don't care i want something that is simple and works....something i can rec to my mom...that simple

[Superbass]

The reason they don't support it is because you obviously are using a 3rd party external hard drive. Apple never has supported 3rd party software or devices.

DUH.


Yeah, this is the beginning of a cash-grab. First, they know Apple Computer users are almost 100% faithful to Apple MP3 players, keyboards, mice, and displays, and indeed almost exclusively support their own hardware. Now they want to add external hard drives to that equation... I wonder how long it'll be before Apple releases several of their own branded hard drives minus airport, and then drops LaCie from the Apple Store.

[EagerDragon]

I posted about this a couple of times in here and another guy (Taylorman) also posted about his conversation with Apple support where they stated that it was not supported.

It is good to get further confirmation.

I wonder how much bitching there is going to be if they turn it off when 10.5.3 comes out. LOL.

The real disservice for users was done by news outlets (such as AppleInsider) that reported the "fact" that Apple re-enabled Time Machine backups to Airport Disks, when in fact, that was never the case. Before and after the recent Airport update, I was able to choose Airport Disks without any problems, as long as they were mounted. Nothing has changed in this respect.

Over at MacDailyNews, they even went so far as to try and build up their case that this "feature" was the real deal by posting screenshots. They never backed down, and now look at where we are.

A real shame that people were blinded by their wishful thinking.

I wrote to several sites and podcasters about it and the attitude was the same "Hey it works, so it is fine". Nobody wanted to notice that it was not documented anywhere and neither was on Apple site.

I so wish publications did their readers a favor and investigate, before adverticing a feature.

[minderbinder]

As I have posted twice before- in two other Appleinsider threads reviewing TIme Capsule and Time Machine over an AEBS using a USB disk-the latter was not EVER officially supported by Apple- and if Appleinsider had done some simple homework- a lot of people would have been saved the frustration of thinking that it was.

What was your source?

Apple included the feature, how was AI or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know that it wasn't officially supported? Now are we supposed to be paranoid every time a release includes a new feature that it might not be Official and may be taken away later?

The real disservice for users was done by news outlets (such as AppleInsider) that reported the "fact" that Apple re-enabled Time Machine backups to Airport Disks, when in fact, that was never the case. Before and after the recent Airport update, I was able to choose Airport Disks without any problems, as long as they were mounted. Nothing has changed in this respect.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The update actually DID enable the feature, people used it and it worked fine. Are you saying it always worked (you were able to choose an airport disk and successfully backup to it?), or are you saying that the people using the feature are just hallucinating it?

The reason they don't support it is because you obviously are using a 3rd party external hard drive. Apple never has supported 3rd party software or devices.

DUH.

That's idiotic. They have plenty of features in the hardware and software that require third party stuff. By that logic, they wouldn't support printing or burning DVDs since apple doesn't sell the printer or blank media.

Of course they could say that your drive is bad, but that's completely different than not supporting the feature ever.

[EagerDragon]

What was your source?

Apple included the feature, how was AI or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know that it wasn't officially supported? Now are we supposed to be paranoid every time a release includes a new feature that it might not be Official and may be taken away later?



I'm not sure what you're talking about. The update actually DID enable the feature, people used it and it worked fine. Are you saying it always worked (you were able to choose an airport disk and successfully backup to it?), or are you saying that the people using the feature are just hallucinating it?



That's idiotic. They have plenty of features in the hardware and software that require third party stuff. By that logic, they wouldn't support printing or burning DVDs since apple doesn't sell the printer or blank media.

Of course they could say that your drive is bad, but that's completely different than not supporting the feature ever.

Taylorman called Apple and talked to them. They clearly told him it was not supported.

Also if others would have looked at the manual pages for TM and for the AEBS they may have noticed it was not mentioned.

Also if people go to the Apple web site and look into TM and AEBS, again the feature is not mentioned at all.

If it was a supported feature, it would have been advertized.

AEBS and TC share a lot of the same code, so probably they screwup. Also if you noticed the build of the system changed to a weird number (compared to the previous build number) and they also screwup the OSX copyright, they changed it from 2008 back to 2007. That update was all screwup.

I am afraid that some of those issues will be corrected in 10.5.3 and this "feature" will be turned off.

[minderbinder]

That's all well and good, but the fact remains that apple DID enable the feature. It's just flat out wrong to insist that the feature wasn't enabled (as some have here) just because apple says they won't support it.

Apple doesn't always do a good job of keeping their documentation up to date - does that mean every feature in apple OS or app that isn't mentioned in a manual or advertised somewhere is also "unsupported" and I should be worried it might go away?

[EagerDragon]

That's all well and good, but the fact remains that apple DID enable the feature. It's just flat out wrong to insist that the feature wasn't enabled (as some have here) just because apple says they won't support it.

Apple doesn't always do a good job of keeping their documentation up to date - does that mean every feature in apple OS or app that isn't mentioned in a manual or advertised somewhere is also "unsupported" and I should be worried it might go away?

You are fixating on whose fault it was. That is not really that important.
What is important is that it is not a supported feature, and while it may seem to work for most, you maybe putting your data at risk.

I assume your data is important.

I started by looking at the lack of documentation, the lack of adverticing a hot feature in Apple web site, and the screwups of the build number and the screwup of the copyright. That told me it was not thrust worthy.

I wrote here several time, at macrumors and macatack, and many others I also talked to Taylorman and quoted his post at all those places and others.

Yet it is still a surprice to people.

I can understand why people are angry, to them I say ... Be glad you did not find out after your disk crash and the restore did not work.

Lets all look for alternatives like TC and superdupper or CCC.

[solipsism]

Apple doesn't always do a good job of keeping their documentation up to date - does that mean every feature in apple OS or app that isn't mentioned in a manual or advertised somewhere is also "unsupported" and I should be worried it might go away?

There is a major difference between keeping documentation up to date and not listing specs and features you don't wish to officially support.

There is no evidence that Apple will remove this feature. I suspect they will keep making it better so that all AEBS can use USB connected drives for Time Machine, but that doesn't mean they will ever officially support it... and I reckon they never will.

[Abster2core]

You are fixating on whose fault it was. That is not really that important.
What is important is that it is not a supported feature, and while it may seem to work for most, you maybe putting your data at risk.

I assume your data is important.

I doubt it.

[Abster2core]

Yeah, this is the beginning of a cash-grab. First, they know Apple Computer users are almost 100% faithful to Apple MP3 players, keyboards, mice, and displays, and indeed almost exclusively support their own hardware. Now they want to add external hard drives to that equation... I wonder how long it'll be before Apple releases several of their own branded hard drives minus airport, and then drops LaCie from the Apple Store.

Somebody (is) will be wrong, http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=9EF8C80B&node=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/storage

[audiopollution]

Somebody is wrong, http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=9EF8C80B&node=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/storage

He didn't say that they had dropped Lacie. He did wonder how long it would be until Apple only sell Apple-branded hard drives and dropped 3rd-party items (such as Lacie).

[8CoreWhore]

What's the matter Mr. Jobs, too busy with your iPods?? I was waiting to add to my Mac collection a Mac Pro (I have a MBP), but I was waiting for the new Cinema Display so I can put them both on the warranty. Now, since Apple Computers, Um, I a mean Apple Inc. finds computing too difficult, I'll just build a Hackintosh. I LOVE OS X, but they are just pissing me off with everything else. Sheesh! :err::(:grumble::mad::no:

[Abster2core]

He didn't say that they had dropped Lacie. He did wonder how long it would be until Apple only sell Apple-branded hard drives and dropped 3rd-party items (such as Lacie).

I stand corrected.

But it will never happen,

[winterspan]

Yeah what the hell is Apple's problem? Why the F*(# can't they just provide a simple explanation, set the record straight, and then be done with it? And then they wonder why things get garbled all over the internet and users do things they apparently shouldn't. Why must everything be so god damn secretive, from a color change of a computer, to software release notes that tell you NOTHING about what will change after an update, to garbage like this.

I'm in a cranky mood today. OK. But Apple only has itself to blame for this mess because they advocated the feature. Had they not, and rumor sites report it, fine. Not their fault. But they very publicly told customers it was coming. Then they swept it under the rug and hoped no one was looking. Well PEOPLE WERE LOOKING. And there's A LOT OF OTHER DUST UNDER THERE

MRG

I completely agree. I've already written about this numerous times, and always get flamed by the psychotic faboys. Apple has every right to keep product development secret, and I think we all love to speculate and be surprised by what Jobs reveals on stage at Apple events. But this secrecy-for-secrey's-sake bullshit has got to stop.. It just makes them look bad and creates way too much unnecessary animosity between them and their customers. I seriously cannot even comprehend what Jobs is thinking! Why would he want to put so many people off like that?
It seems like recently there have been more of these situations... the Inability to add/edit calendar events on the iPod touch, The unclear situation on charging for updates on the iPod Touch, The 8800GT mess, this Airport disk mess, etc.
I'm sure there have been more I can''t think of at the moment and I'd bet that many if not most have had at least a small effect on current and future purchase decisions, and attitudes towards the company. Also, I bet many of the situations involved no intentional harm or screwjob on the part of Apple, and that is the biggest problem. Without any information, people are going to assume the worst.

Can anyone think of a reason why Apple would not want to be transparent on minor issues like these?

[8CoreWhore]

I hook up a HDD to my AEBS just like Apple says I can. I turn on Time Machine. TM sees the HDD and asks if I want to use it to back up my computer. I confirm I do. It works. To me, that is IMPLIED support. :rolleyes:

[jeffmccord]

The whole, entire reason I switched to Mac was because of how impressed I was by Apple fans.

This is shi**ing on us.... if Apple takes this back. It's total BS.

[solipsism]

I hook up a HDD to my AEBS just like Apple says I can. I turn on Time Machine. TM sees the HDD and asks if I want to use it to back up my computer. I confirm I do. It works. To me, that is IMPLIED support. :rolleyes:

Supported means that Apple has clearly specified this as a feature, will assist you if you have trouble setting it up and that you'd have a case for litigation if it doesn't work.

[urbansprawl]

I'm in love with Apple just as much as the rest of you, but it's clear they make business/profit-motivated decisions over making users happy. It's pretty obvious they pulled the feature at first just to push new hardware (Time Capsule). Granted, I don't know about possible hardware changes between AEBS and TC, but it seems that it should just work for both.

[Abster2core]

Why would he want to put so many people off like that?

Because he doesn't. Just a handful of the same disgruntals that repeatedly same the same crap.

It seems like recently there have been more of these situations... the Inability to add/edit calendar events on the iPod touch, The unclear situation on charging for updates on the iPod Touch, The 8800GT mess, this Airport disk mess, etc. [/QUOTE]

What do you want for a couple of bucks. As we promised, there is more to come. He didn't charge at all for updates, they were brand new apps. What mess?

Can anyone think of a reason why Apple would not want to be transparent on minor issues like these?

Because they were minor. Better question, why make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Interesting that Apple is doing so much better than anybody else in the business in every aspect, continues to get better all the time, can be maligned by so few. A few, that for whatever reason never have kind word to say. And can't wait for the next article to vent their spew.

Perhaps Apple's policy of patience is something that more could make use of. Invariably Apple comes through.

[Taylorman]

Rather than take on trying to psychically fathom Apple's intent- or rationale- write them a letter telling them what you think. (Not that it will make any difference- short of class action lawsuits- they typically don't respond to customer complaints very well) What annoys me more is the slipshod reporting on this "feature set" by Appleinsider. I do expect more from them - and have let them know.

[wfrank]

I would suggest that apple leave the feature on so people that want to can use the feature and apple can continue to work on the feature. Apple can post a disclaimer or just say as apple has that airdisk is not a supported feature and use at your own risk and leave it at that.
To turn the feature off again at this point would ,in my opinion look really bad.

[nikwax]

As I have posted twice before- in two other Appleinsider threads reviewing TIme Capsule and Time Machine over an AEBS using a USB disk-the latter was not EVER officially supported by Apple- and if Appleinsider had done some simple homework- a lot of people would have been saved the frustration of thinking that it was.

I wrote to Appleinsider directly about this- and I suppose this is there response. Thanks.

I quite agree. Apple has been making it very clear that this is NOT a supported function of the AirportExtreme. Kind of reckless of AppleInsider to declare that it was a "feature." So now AI comes along and spins this really hard to make it look like Apple has again withdrawn this semi-functionality.


Seems like somebody at AI is auditioning for White House Press Secretary :lol:

[Uncle Phil]

I was on the phone yesterday with an Apple representative and explained the situation with my Airport. We went through the motions until he got to the script where he is supposed to tell the customer that the Airport is unsupported. I went off on him like you couldn't believe. I for one am tired of Apple's holier than thou attitude. I have a perfectly good Airport sitting in the closet because I went out and bought the New Airport last year to be ready for Leopard and the wireless backup. I also bought a 500GB disk to connect to it. Two items I did not need and WOULD NOT have purchased if Apple had not promoted this product as gospel. Well, Steve, it is time to put down your water bottle and pack away your salesmanship as you wait for the audience to applaud you and Apple for the next greatest breakthrough. As a loyal Apple consumer and an Apple stock holder, I am pissed! You made a commitment and you left good customers hanging. Not right, not prudent and I for one am not going to stand for it. I guarantee that I am not the only person who became an early adopter of your new Airport. I have been financially damaged and you and your company misled the public on this one. Maybe not intentionally, but you need to make it right. If Time Capsule is the product to do want you intended, then take my Apple Airport in trade and make me a happy camper again. When the I phone came out within two-months the price dropped and you were ready to let good loyal early adopters take the hit on that one. Steve, you are starting to worry me here. You keep this pattern up and you might qualify as Hillary's running mate. She doesn't know the truth either!

Uncle Phil

PS I did the video on I-Grease when we got hosed on the iPhone, and I will be happy to create a sequel with Airport.

[audiopollution]

I was on the phone yesterday with an Apple representative and explained the situation with my Airport. We went through the motions until he got to the script where he is supposed to tell the customer that the Airport is unsupported. I went off on him like you couldn't believe. I for one am tired of Apple's holier than thou attitude. I have a perfectly good Airport sitting in the closet because I went out and bought the New Airport last year to be ready for Leopard and the wireless backup. I also bought a 500GB disk to connect to it. Two items I did not need and WOULD NOT have purchased if Apple had not promoted this product as gospel. Well, Steve, it is time to put down your water bottle and pack away your salesmanship as you wait for the audience to applaud you and Apple for the next greatest breakthrough. As a loyal Apple consumer and an Apple stock holder, I am pissed! You made a commitment and you left good customers hanging. Not right, not prudent and I for one am not going to stand for it. I guarantee that I am not the only person who became an early adopter of your new Airport. I have been financially damaged and you and your company misled the public on this one. Maybe not intentionally, but you need to make it right. If Time Capsule is the product to do want you intended, then take my Apple Airport in trade and make me a happy camper again. When the I phone came out within two-months the price dropped and you were ready to let good loyal early adopters take the hit on that one. Steve, you are starting to worry me here. You keep this pattern up and you might qualify as Hillary's running mate. She doesn't know the truth either!

Uncle Phil

PS I did the video on I-Grease when we got hosed on the iPhone, and I will be happy to create a sequel with Airport.

I can sympathize with you regarding the AE(n) + External HD feature pull.

I'd ask why you think you got 'hosed' on the iPhone, but I don't think I can be bothered reading such a long paragraph again. Actually, I know why ... and I disagree. Be thankful you got $100.

[solipsism]

I was on the phone yesterday with an Apple representative and explained the situation with my Airport. We went through the motions until he got to the script where he is supposed to tell the customer that the Airport is unsupported. I went off on him like you couldn't believe. I for one am tired of Apple's holier than thou attitude. I have a perfectly good Airport sitting in the closet because I went out and bought the New Airport last year to be ready for Leopard and the wireless backup. I also bought a 500GB disk to connect to it. Two items I did not need and WOULD NOT have purchased if Apple had not promoted this product as gospel. Well, Steve, it is time to put down your water bottle and pack away your salesmanship as you wait for the audience to applaud you and Apple for the next greatest breakthrough. As a loyal Apple consumer and an Apple stock holder, I am pissed! You made a commitment and you left good customers hanging. Not right, not prudent and I for one am not going to stand for it. I guarantee that I am not the only person who became an early adopter of your new Airport. I have been financially damaged and you and your company misled the public on this one. Maybe not intentionally, but you need to make it right. If Time Capsule is the product to do want you intended, then take my Apple Airport in trade and make me a happy camper again. When the I phone came out within two-months the price dropped and you were ready to let good loyal early adopters take the hit on that one. Steve, you are starting to worry me here. You keep this pattern up and you might qualify as Hillary's running mate. She doesn't know the truth either!

Uncle Phil

I was an early adopter of the iPod Shuffle. I paid $79 for it and 3 years later Apple drops the price to $49 and, to add insult to injury, they offer a new one with twice the capacity for $10 less than what I paid. What kind of skullduggery is this, where technology prices drop and companies lower prices to shore up unit sales?

Seriously though, gospel—in the way you use it—means "a thing that is absolutely true", yet Apple clearly stated—and this IS gospel with any beta product—"that features/specs are subject to change". You should be pissed at yourself for jumping the gun, not with Apple, and not with CSRs scraping out a meager living. Shame on you for your "holier than thou" attitude toward the poor CSR. Do you kick kittens too? Perhaps you should take yourself out to your own woodshed, Uncle Phil.

[seadoodude]

The reason they don't support it is because you obviously are using a 3rd party external hard drive. Apple never has supported 3rd party software or devices.

DUH.

Cool, I can select any drive on the network now. I think the real reason they don't support it is because they want to sell time capsule. However to give them the benefit of the doubt, it could be due to the critical nature of a back-up system, they want to have a proven and reliable system of a given high bandwidth and not just any old network drive on any ol network. Na, more likely, the marketing dept has taken over operations.

[solipsism]

Cool, I can select any drive on the network now. I think the real reason they don't support it is because they want to sell time capsule. However to give them the benefit of the doubt, it could be due to the critical nature of a back-up system, they want to have a proven and reliable system of a given high bandwidth and not just any old network drive on any ol network. Na, more likely, the marketing dept has taken over operations.

Your latter answer is more likely. Leopard came out 5—6 months before Time Capsule and Time Capsule was obviously in the works at Apple that they could have removed the feature listing a lot earlier than they did. It makes sense they wanted to add the feature but were possibility warned that data loss due to shoddy syncing could be a legal issue. Whatever the reason, it does suck to expect one thing and get another, but we need to be careful not to be overzealous and assume more than is promised. There were more that one feature that did not show up in Leopard, and there were things that worked fine for my in Leopard beta but for some reason failed to work properly once the GM was released.

[audiopollution]

Oh, Uncle Phil, I just noticed the title of your post:

'Anyone for a Class-Action Lawsuit?'

Good luck with that.

[jobberphoto]

Wonderful. I just ordered an AEBS last night. Only after going to the local Apple Store and being reassured by the local techies that this very feature existed. I also wanted it for print sharing, but was REALLY looking forward to the Time Machine feature through Airdisk.

Makes me wonder if they're doing this to push more sales of Time Capsule. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Akac]

I'm in love with Apple just as much as the rest of you, but it's clear they make business/profit-motivated decisions over making users happy. It's pretty obvious they pulled the feature at first just to push new hardware (Time Capsule). Granted, I don't know about possible hardware changes between AEBS and TC, but it seems that it should just work for both.

You are wrong. I know for a *fact* that it was pulled because it didn't work reliably. Period. This was an engineering decision 100% of the way. The problem was not in leopard. The problem was in AEBS and with certain USB drives.

And yes, I can say "Period" because I've read the radar case notes. And no, it was not under NDA but instead from a friend in engineering at Apple.

[everdownpismo]

I cannot believe how crazy people are getting over this.

Apple advertised, at first, the feature. They STOPPED doing that. Everyone who rushed out to by their AEBS before Leopard was ready should have waited. I bought mine too for the Airdisk/TM machine reason. But because Apple stopped advertising the feature and did not include in the final product, I cannot get angry. Do I want it to work? Yes. Do I wish it would? Yes. Does it kind of work now? Yep. Will Apple support it? No. Did they say they would support? No.

Did Apple activate the feature? Yes! But it's not supported and they never said it was. If you want to play around and use the 'feature' then feel free, but don't expect Apple to help if it fails. I can do all kinds of things with my Mac that are not supported. Before Apple went Intel, I used to run Linux on my iBook G4 by modifying the bootstrap and a few other things. Apple never supported the feature. I can't get angry if they don't help me with it when it doesn't work. Apple never advertised it as a feature (I agree), but Apple did stop advertising the TM feature (so the example fits again).

Long before Leopard came out people had noticed that the 'Feature' had been 'dropped.' Next time wait for the final product and it's supported feature list.

[Taylorman]

Many of us did- and then Appleinsider (who I have the beef with- not Apple) pretended like it WAS a supported feature- and then went on for DAYS reporting a series of articles that compared this feature with TIme Capsule. Annoying to say the least.

[Free2B]

Wow, lots of angry people out there. It would have been nice had Apple said what the deal was with TM backups, but they didn't. I think it would generally help customer relations, so either they only want to sell more TC's, or they can't seem to make TM work with myriad third party HD's and are working this issue out with an uncertain outcome. My guess is it's the latter, otherwise why would it be a feature that they were talking about pre Leopard launch? Then again, maybe the marketing guys decided it would be better to force people to buy TC's. But what bugs me about that is, what do you do when your 1TB TC drive fills up?

Either way, if you're so pissed about this, take a breather! I tried to get it to work with my AEBS right after the latest version came out, and it didn't work, it fouled up my internet connection, and I had to start all over. Dang, that was annoying. But then again, Apple NEVER OFFICIALLY SAID IT WAS SUPPORTED. So I moved on with life. It's sad when people's lives revolve around their tech gear so much that they freak out like a lot of the people on this forum when things don't live up to their expectations.

But even MacWorld (who I guess I respect, sort of) touted this feature in their latest issue. I think they should have done a little more journalistic research to make sure it actually did before they fired off a story that lacks credibility at this point. Seems like most of the Mac writers/bloggers jumped the gun.

[jowie74]

{deleted}

[Nathan Gulick]

You can connect your macbook to the AEBS using ethernet and do the initial backup. You must turn off airport for this to work. When it is finished, turn airport back on and disconnect the ethernet. Do a forced backup and all should be fine. Worked for me. Creates a sparseimage. It has been working with a mac mini with gigabit ethernet and a macbook with wireless-g. Trying soon with a G5 wired ethernet.

Hi, just wanted to let you guys know that you can do the initial time machine back up to an external drive via connected firewire or USB (to the computer), then connect it to the airport extreme and continue to do incremental TM backups to that initial back up via wireless. On another note, I guess I got lucky here. My time machine works to not one, but two drives (one for my laptop, another for my girlfriends) connected via a usb hub which then connects to the usb. You don't even have to have the drives mounted as airdisks on your desktop. It will mount the disk image when it runs a back up. You just have to remain connected in the "shared" servers (your airport disk) in the sidebar of the finder window. Which is an automatic action.

[jowie74]

The reason they don't support it is because you obviously are using a 3rd party external hard drive. Apple never has supported 3rd party software or devices.

If that were true, then they wouldn't support Time Machine via any third party drive connected directly. But they do.

So think again! :)

Besides, if they stopped the feature tomorrow, you could disconnect the disk from the Airport Extreme, connect it to your computer, mount the disk image and do a backup. See this is why I don't think it's a feature Apple are deliberately keeping from us, I reckon it's just not properly tested and official yet.

[jowie74]

I hook up a HDD to my AEBS just like Apple says I can. I turn on Time Machine. TM sees the HDD and asks if I want to use it to back up my computer. I confirm I do. It works. To me, that is IMPLIED support. :rolleyes:

I guess that if it actually invited you to use that specific disk, over AirPort, as a Time Machine backup, then you have a case. Can you confirm this is definitely the case?

[jowie74]

Wonderful. I just ordered an AEBS last night. Only after going to the local Apple Store and being reassured by the local techies that this very feature existed. I also wanted it for print sharing, but was REALLY looking forward to the Time Machine feature through Airdisk..

Again, if the salesman tells you the feature is supported, but it is not, you have a case. Well at least in the UK; it is called Statutory Rights. If you are sold any goods falsely advertised (verbal or written) then you are entitled to a full refund or replacement.

[jowie74]

But what bugs me about that is, what do you do when your 1TB TC drive fills up?
Time Machine was designed to work to the limits of a hard drive. Once the drive fills up, the oldest backup is removed and so on. This is the way Time Machine was made to work, and always has been. If you want a different backup method, you need to use different software.

[BdeRWest]

I have got mine working perfectly too! It has been running flawlessly for over a week. I will be l ticked off if were stooped by an update!


The problem is, as it stands, Time Machine is a completely desktop-centric app. I.e., mine works well too, but my MacBook Pro only backs up when it's plugged into a power source, and does not (to my knowledge) back up when the lid's closed.

This works great for a desktop machine. It's plugged in, period, and while it sleeps, there has to be something with hibernation and laptop sleep that differs from desktop sleep.

Also, as laptops travel more, backups aren't hourly, only hourly when you're in your network. Plugged into the wall. Sitting at the computer.

I'm grateful they opened the feature (even if by accident), but I definitely see why they're all OMGoops! about it.

[jowie74]

Also, as laptops travel more, backups aren't hourly, only hourly when you're in your network. Plugged into the wall. Sitting at the computer.

I'm grateful they opened the feature (even if by accident), but I definitely see why they're all OMGoops! about it.
You seem to be justifying their mistake on how Time Machine works wirelessly for wireless machines. However you seem to have missed that Time Machine works perfectly fine with Time Capsule, and is supported.

Someone using Time Capsule to backup their MacBook is completely supported.

[beninden]

Hi,

My name is Joe average consumer. I bought an Imac yesterday and a Macbook Pro. -I'm tired of Vista crashing and I love my Ipod. I also bought an Airport extreme.

I took them home, set them all up, and plugged something called an external drive into the little rectangular spot on the airport extreme.

I saw in the Apple store this nifty thing called time machine and thought I should use it. I turned it on and it chose that big hard drive to do the back up.

It took several hours, but it's probably because it had to go over that M (maybe it's called N) network. Anyway, it's all good now, I'm backed up and living happily ever after.

Right?

[beninden]

The problem is, as it stands, Time Machine is a completely desktop-centric app. I.e., mine works well too, but my MacBook Pro only backs up when it's plugged into a power source, and does not (to my knowledge) back up when the lid's closed.

This works great for a desktop machine. It's plugged in, period, and while it sleeps, there has to be something with hibernation and laptop sleep that differs from desktop sleep.

Also, as laptops travel more, backups aren't hourly, only hourly when you're in your network. Plugged into the wall. Sitting at the computer.

I'm grateful they opened the feature (even if by accident), but I definitely see why they're all OMGoops! about it.

This makes no sense at all. If it were "desktop centric" it would not tell me that the next backup would occur when I'm plugged in.

With laptop sales far outpacing desktop sales, Apple clearly designed this app with the ability to assist in solving the problem of backing up a mobile device.

[BdeRWest]

This makes no sense at all. If it were "desktop centric" it would not tell me that the next backup would occur when I'm plugged in.

I have no doubt Apple designed the app with the mobile computer in mind. They'd be stupid not to. The way their .Mac service integrates several Macs seamlessly is on the forefront of this "cloud computing" model everyone keeps touting.

I'm saying in its current iteration, as I use the program, I find myself saying "man, this would be perfect if I had a desktop."

As it is, I run the risk of actually deleting something unless I dock my computer and me to my desk more frequently than I might otherwise.

I'm sure when it becomes "official," it won't feel this way.

But for now, it does.

[jowie74]

I'm sure when it becomes "official," it won't feel this way.

But for now, it does.
Errr but that's the thing, it IS official. :D

Time Capsule + MacBook = wireless backup = Official way of using Time Machine.

[murphyweb]

I guess that if it actually invited you to use that specific disk, over AirPort, as a Time Machine backup, then you have a case. Can you confirm this is definitely the case?

Exactly right!!

All you posters on here who are agreeing that this is not a supported feature really do not have a clue what you are talking about, much like Apple.

I have a hard disk attached to my Extreme that I have always used for backing up important files from any of the macs we use in my house. Last week I read about the Apple update and turned on Time Machine, immediately Time Machine recognized my Airdisk and asked me if I wanted to use it as my time machine disk. I now have both mine and my wives laptops using it.

So don't tell me that this is not a supported feature because Apple's own software asked me if I wanted to use this feature!!! This is not a hack or a workaround, I have not changed anything or not done anything that is unsupported - The Airport Extreme does support the use of a USB hard drive for storage and always has done, the only difference is Time Machine now recognizes it as a valid Time Machine disk and asks me if I want to use it. Apple can claim this is unsupported all they like but I cannot believe that anyone sensible is backing them up on this.


On a similar note, does anyone know if Wireless networking has become an unsupported feature on the Airport Extreme? I have three networks at home, two are wireless G networks running on my Cisco router and the other is a wireless N network using an Extreme and extended with an express. I am currently connected to one of my G's as yet again my MBP connects to my apple network but no data is forthcoming, this is happening far to often at the moment and I am getting bored of rebooting my Extreme all the time.

I just thought maybe using the Airport Extreme has become unsupported too?

* HaHa along with the 'delete' key on my MBP which stopped working last week at exactly the same time as the first use of my new Apple USB keyboard I bought. I wonder if 'delete' is no longer a supported feature now too?

Looks like a trip to the repair center for my MBP which is just what I chuffin need.

[joltguy]

I quite agree. Apple has been making it very clear that this is NOT a supported function of the AirportExtreme.

Apple hasn't been making *anything* "very clear". That's exactly the problem.

[Taylorman]

Exactly right!!

All you posters on here who are agreeing that this is not a supported feature really do not have a clue what you are talking about, much like Apple.

I have a hard disk attached to my Extreme that I have always used for backing up important files from any of the macs we use in my house. Last week I read about the Apple update and turned on Time Machine, immediately Time Machine recognized my Airdisk and asked me if I wanted to use it as my time machine disk. I now have both mine and my wives laptops using it.

So don't tell me that this is not a supported feature because Apple's own software asked me if I wanted to use this feature!!! This is not a hack or a workaround, I have not changed anything or not done anything that is unsupported -

Sigh. No one ever said you couldn't do it. The point being made is that Apple does not OFFICIALLY support this functionality. Call Apple Support and ask them for help in making it work- you won't get any.

Why is this an issue for those of you that are using this unsupported functionality? Apple could come out with an update in the future disabling this functionality and you will no longer be able to wirelessly back up your Mac through Time Machine using an AEBS and USB connected hard drive.

Not the end of the world- but it could happen- and anyone using it should be prepared for such an event. Of course- if that happens- expect an even bigger set of flaming posts in a future thread. :lol:

[solipsism]

Apple hasn't been making *anything* "very clear". That's exactly the problem.

There is a difference between being unclear and reading what you want to read. Apple has never said this is a supported feature. They did have it as a feature that was subject to change, and did, when Leopard was in beta. To assume anything else is an error in reading comprehension.

[joltguy]

There is a difference between being unclear and reading what you want to read. Apple has never said this is a supported feature. They did have it as a feature that was subject to change, and did, when Leopard was in beta. To assume anything else is an error in reading comprehension.
Actually, it has nothing to do with reading comprehension. It has to do with the fact that I can currently open up Time Machine and see a disk which is connected to the AEBS, using only the software Apple provided.

[8CoreWhore]

Supported means that Apple has clearly specified this as a feature, will assist you if you have trouble setting it up and that you'd have a case for litigation if it doesn't work.

Support, schmaport. Look through the support forums... people screaming that the Cupertino based iPod maker won't help them with their Macs. Even if it were "official" with a neon sign... they wouldn't "support" it. They ignore our pleas now. Why does my MBP keep saying "Airport: scanning.../Airport: on" even though it's connected the whole time? Do they support printing over AEBS?? Why did mine stop working after 10.5.2?? (I tried EVERYTHING) Do we have to hire lawyers to get them to listen?

I Love my Mac, hate everything else... but I refuse to be an apologist for their failures.... like some wussies around here. :devil:

[rcfa]

The reason is simple: if you ever worked with third party USB enclosures and drives, you know how crappy even certain "high-end" brands are. (Need I e.g. mention all the issues there were with certain french-sounding drives that had massive issues with FW firmware and failing power supplies, and then the company wouldn't sell you a $5 spare part to fix a $400 drive that was a few days out of warranty?)
There are drives out there with imperfect drivers, with odd-behaving sleep modes, with power issues, lose USB connectors, etc.
Apple's TechSupport would be in a world of pain trying to support all the resulting issues.

Sure, Apple could create a program of officially certified TimeMachine USB drives, but that costs time and resources, and the manufacturer's would need to pay Apple, and they would increase the price, etc. All said and done, the people who are cheap would still buy uncertified drives because of the price differential, and those who really want an Apple sanctioned solution might as well just go and buy the TimeCapsule: there are less wires, less clutter, a built-in power supply, and if you look at the cost of 1TB drive plus an AirPort Extreme you pay really no premium for a solution that's better.

I really don't get what all the whining is about. Unsupported doesn't mean "won't work", it just means that Apple will not provide support or make any warranties, and how could they, if they have no control over what you attach to your base station?

[solipsism]

Actually, it has nothing to do with reading comprehension. It has to do with the fact that I can currently open up Time Machine and see a disk which is connected to the AEBS, using only the software Apple provided.

A feature working and a feature being supported are not synonymous.

[joltguy]

A feature working and a feature being supported are not synonymous.
Look, all I really want is some clarification from the mother ship. Some 3rd party saying "Apple told me so" on their blog doesn't count. Apple needs to come out and say it, whatever the case is. The feature is in the software. That's the only "official" indication from Apple at this point. Hence the confusion.

[solipsism]

Look, all I really want is some clarification from the mother ship. Some 3rd party saying "Apple told me so" on their blog doesn't count. Apple needs to come out and say it, whatever the case is. The feature is in the software. That's the only "official" indication from Apple at this point. Hence the confusion.

Al the clarification you and anyone needs is that if Apple doesn't promote that feature on their website or in their store then it is not a feature supported by Apple. You are making a TB out of Kb*.



* Sorry, but I hate clichés.

[JeffDM]

And it WAS officially advertised by Apple that features are subject to change.

I would be a lot more comfortable with the situation if they had come out and said announced the redaction of the feature, rather than just did an Orwellian wipe of the feature and hope people didn't notice. I really don't think it's insignificant for those that bought the AEBS in part because of that feature.

[murphyweb]

Al the clarification you and anyone needs is that if Apple doesn't promote that feature on their website or in their store then it is not a feature supported by Apple. You are making a TB out of Kb*. ]

Sollipsism, Your fanboyism sometimes is far too much, if you cannot see that Apple by announcing they are not supporting this feature are reneging on their responsibilities and in turn shitting on their customers then I do not know what is wrong with you.

From the Apple website on the Time Machine page..

You can designate just about any HFS+ formatted FireWire or USB drive connected to a Mac as a Time Machine backup drive.

It does not say anywhere that you cannot use an Airdisk. So based on this information from the Apple website I go out and buy myself a 500GB disk to plug into my network purely to use Time Machine. I plug this disk into my Extreme, it is then therefore "connected to my mac" (And yes it is connected to my mac, via ethernet, wireless ethernet or USB does make any difference all ways to legitimately connect a drive to my mac) And turn on Time Machine, as soon as I turn on Time Machine Apple ask me if that is the disk I want to use, I click yes and hey presto it starts working.

A week later something goes wrong and it stops working, I call Apple support. They tell me it is actually not a supported feature, not a supported feature?

"But I do not understand? Your website says any drive connected to my mac"

"Ah but we meant not one connected via wireless"

"But you never said that"

"We kinda just figured you might have special psychic ability"

"But your software asked me if I wanted to use that disk"

" Yeah, kinda strange that one, just because we invite you to do something it does not actually mean it is a feature"

"But that makes no sense at all"

"Sorry, thats just the way it is. Any other issues?"


Sorry but if you cannot admit this is crap then I dunno what is wrong with you, Apple have to support this feature because they have designed their own software to not only make this feature work but tell people this feature is supported.

Yes, that is right they do say this feature is supported. By Time Machine actually asking me if I want to use my mounted Airdisk as a Time Machine back-up they are telling me it is supported.

[solipsism]

From the Apple website on the Time Machine page..

You might try reading it as marketing has written it (i.e: where they write the truth, not the whole truth) and as legal likes to write (i,e,: not agreeing to anything you can't fully support in order to prevent litigation), instead of just what you want to read.

The full paragraph you partially quoted:You can designate just about any HFS+ formatted FireWire or USB drive connected to a Mac as a Time Machine backup drive. Time Machine can also back up to another Mac running Leopard with Personal File Sharing, Leopard Server, or Xsan storage devices.

There is plenty of evidence in that paragraph that indicates that a HDD connected to an AEBS—which doesn't run OS X, much less being labeled a Mac—is not supported by Apple. If it's working for you, Great! Stop complaining! There are plenty of others who still aren't able to back up to a USB HDD connected to an AEBS.

As far as being an Apple fanboy, I have a MS Windows Storage Server with RAID 5. I've mentioned it on AI before and have given it high praise on several occasions.

[Abster2core]

Sollipsism, Your fanboyism sometimes is far too much, if you cannot see that Apple by announcing they are not supporting this feature are reneging on their responsibilities and in turn shitting on their customers then I do not know what is wrong with you.

From the Apple website on the Time Machine page..



It does not say anywhere that you cannot use an Airdisk. So based on this information from the Apple website I go out and buy myself a 500GB disk to plug into my network purely to use Time Machine. I plug this disk into my Extreme, it is then therefore "connected to my mac" (And yes it is connected to my mac, via ethernet, wireless ethernet or USB does make any difference all ways to legitimately connect a drive to my mac) And turn on Time Machine, as soon as I turn on Time Machine Apple ask me if that is the disk I want to use, I click yes and hey presto it starts working.

A week later something goes wrong and it stops working, I call Apple support. They tell me it is actually not a supported feature, not a supported feature?

"But I do not understand? Your website says any drive connected to my mac"

"Ah but we meant not one connected via wireless"

"But you never said that"

"We kinda just figured you might have special psychic ability"

"But your software asked me if I wanted to use that disk"

" Yeah, kinda strange that one, just because we invite you to do something it does not actually mean it is a feature"

"But that makes no sense at all"

"Sorry, thats just the way it is. Any other issues?"


Sorry but if you cannot admit this is crap then I dunno what is wrong with you, Apple have to support this feature because they have designed their own software to not only make this feature work but tell people this feature is supported.

Yes, that is right they do say this feature is supported. By Time Machine actually asking me if I want to use my mounted Airdisk as a Time Machine back-up they are telling me it is supported.

Can you understand what you read? Your tirade suggests not.

[jowie74]

The reason is simple: if you ever worked with third party USB enclosures and drives, you know how crappy even certain "high-end" brands are.
Again, you have missed the point. Time Machine works perfectly well with third party drives connected directly to the Mac. It has nothing to do with supporting third party drives. It has everything to do with the way the Airport Extreme was never designed for Time Machine.

The fact that Time Machine invites you to backup to your AirDisk is the problem here. Until they either remove it or support it, they will have to deal with the complaints from people who use AirDisk if it suddenly stops working.