Apple said to have signed landmark 3G iPhone deal for Italy

[AppleInsider]

Apple Inc.'s next-generation iPhone will arrive in Italy in a matter of weeks under a landmark deal that will see handset sold through Telecom Italia Mobile (TIM) without a contract and carrier lock, according to Repubblica.

The authoritative Italian newspaper reports (by way of Macitynet) that a formal agreement on the matter was signed last week when Franco Bernabè, chief executive officer of TIM's parent company Telecom Italia, met with Steve Jobs at Apple's Cupertino-based headquarters.

Under the terms of the deal, TIM will reportedly receive a several month exclusive on sales of a 3G iPhone through its retail shops, which will be staffed with specialists who are trained to support iPhone customers and get the touch-screen handsets up and running on the carrier's 3G network.

Given that Italians are the number one consumer of pre-paid wireless contracts worldwide each year, Apple is also reported to have agreed to terms by which the new iPhone will be sold at a higher price than in other European countries, but without a carrier lock and two-year service agreement.

The move would represent a radical departure from the revenue-share based service model that has led to successful launches of the iPhone in the US and a handful of European countries, but would offer Italians the added freedom of being able to purchase the phone from TIM and use it with existing contracts on rival carriers' networks.

Consumers who opt to use TIM's network would be able to pick from predefined service plans tailored to the iPhone, or purchase minutes and data bundles as they go, Repubblica said.

The Italian carrier reportedly declined to comment on the report at this time, saying they'll have something to say "later on."

TIM's subscriber base of roughly 36.6 million is similar in size to that of T-Mobile Germany, with whom Apple launched the iPhone last November. However, it's estimated that more than 50 percent of Italy's wireless subscribers are already TIM customers.

TIM also operates the second largest wireless network in Brazil, in addition to a much smaller network in Turkey.

Italy's Il Sole 24 Ore.com is also running a a similar story on the deal between Apple and TIM. [ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=3978)

[Bergermeister]

Please tell me it's coming to Japan soon!

[fpsanders]

Fine, fine, but not satisfied 'till it finally arrives in the Netherlands. GET ON WITH IT! :grumble:

[Tailpipe]

Based on Italians I know, there is no doubt that the iPhone will do very well in Italy. The structure of this deal, unlocked iPhones, makes a lot of sense. Anything that didn't allow italians to choose their own carrier would have been pointless. There would have been massive jailbreak software utilization.

I think this revised business model may well pave the way for 3G contracts in other markets. I wonder what Apple will do to give primary partners some kind of competitive edge?

In the UK, Vodafone has suffered a fairly significant customer migration to O2. Which serves it right for totally underestimating the potential of the iPhone even with 2.5G. They would be delighted to get their hands on 3G iPhones, through a similar deal that enabled unlocked iPhones to access the Vodafone network.

So good luck italy. Let's just hope that TIM can provide customer service equal in quality to the phone..

[dreyfus2]

Given that Italians are the number one consumer of pre-paid wireless contracts worldwide each year, ...

A prepaid contract is an oxymoron. Prepaid customers do avoid contracts.

[solipsism]

They have had Italian on the iPhone since day one, but oddly there is no Spanish which is #2 in America and the 1st language of many Americans.

[melgross]

It would be nice if these deals Apple makes with the carriers could carry over to their operations in all the countries they operate in. The thing would get much faster distribution that way.

Anyone have an idea what that higher price may be?

And it's less than five weeks before the ACD. It's almost time to start a countdown.

[melgross]

A prepaid contract is an oxymoron. Prepaid customers do avoid contracts.

It is a contract. It's just not a long term commitment to a specific monthly fee.

[solipsism]

A prepaid contract is an oxymoron. Prepaid customers do avoid contracts.

edit: pipped by Melgross.

[anantksundaram]

I could go along with the idea of an early release in Australia for test-marketing purposes (since it is a tad out of the way, and less likely there will be a grey market).

But I am a little suspicious re. Italy being a matter of 'few weeks.' I doubt that it will be released there before it is released in the US. Second, it will p-o Apple's partners in France, UK, and Germany, so I expect that Apple will want to do it simultaneously in those countries too. (Moreover, they already have the distribution network and trained staff in place, so it would be silly not to). Or, it is going to end up being priced so ridiculously high (a la France for the unlocked version) that it will make nary a difference.

[antiorario]

So good luck italy. Let's just hope that TIM can provide customer service equal in quality to the phone..

I've been a TIM user since 1999, and a business user for the past year and a half (I was strictly prepaid before that), and I have to say that TIM's customer service doesn't suck – I've seen far worse (specifically, AT&T's when I'm in the United States).

What could be better is TIM's offering in terms of data plans, which are still not that convenient, especially in light of the anticipated iPhone boom. Considering that TIM's so-called all-inclusive plans are not really all-inclusive (and that the "Unlimited" plan is not really unlimited), I hope they are going to address that issue as well. After all, an increase in iPhone prices could be justified only by particularly advantageous (or, at least, reasonable) voice and data plans.

(Although, I have to say, quite a few Italians would buy it just because it is expensive...)

[Haggar]

Apple is also reported to have agreed to terms by which the new iPhone will be sold at a higher price than in other European countries, but without a carrier lock and two-year service agreement.

Doesn't France also have "unlocked" iPhones which can only be used in France?

[anomagnus]

if they don't announce it for Ireland, I'll be going for a Nokia N96

Why is Italy allowed to have a contract free iphone and Ireland isn't?

[antiorario]

if they don't announce it for Ireland, I'll be going for a Nokia N96

Why is Italy allowed to have a contract free iphone and Ireland isn't?

Um, maybe because Italy has more active cell phones than people (literally, and the statistics include newborn babies in the count), so I guess it's a pretty interesting market.

Personally, I'll be glad when I can be freed of the eternal dilemma: "Nokia or SonyEricsson?"

8-)

[dreyfus2]

It is a contract. It's just not a long term commitment to a specific monthly fee.

You go to a newspaper stand or supermarket and buy a SIM, put it into the phone, and that's it. You do not sign nothing, so it is not a contract by any stretch. Buying the NYT or a chocolate bar does not constitute a contract either.

The only exception is with buying subsidized phones for prepaid cards, in which case to have to sign a contract agreeing to the SIM-lock (and conditions for future unlocking, if applicable).

[solipsism]

You go to a newspaper stand or supermarket and buy a SIM, put it into the phone, and that's it. You do not sign nothing, so it is not a contract by any stretch. Buying the NYT or a chocolate bar does not constitute a contract either.

I see your point there, but how can you make calls with that SIM?

[dreyfus2]

Doesn't France also have "unlocked" iPhones which can only be used in France?

As an owner of a French unlocked iPhone, I can assure you they work absolutely everywhere with any SIM operating on a supported GSM band. There was a bug with the CallerID handling in Firmware 1.1.2 and earlier - since 1.1.3 the iPhone can be used with any SIM without jailbreaking. BTW, the unlocked iPhones sold in Germany for a short period of time do also work everywhere since 1.1.3.

[dreyfus2]

I see your point there, but how can you make calls with that SIM?

Well, the PIN code, your own phone number and instructions for filling up the account are in the envelope. Nothing else needed. A lot of common prepaid providers do have refill self-service stations in selected supermarkets and public places (like railway stations and shopping malls) - just enter your phone number and slide in a credit card or cash - that's it.

In some countries you are required to fax a copy of your ID or Passport to the provider, because legislation might not allow use of anonymous phones. This proceeding varies a bit, in some countries you need to do this before you can use the SIM at all, in others you have one or two weeks after activation... (not sure how this makes sense though - two weeks should be sufficient for terrorist use).

[melgross]

You go to a newspaper stand or supermarket and buy a SIM, put it into the phone, and that's it. You do not sign nothing, so it is not a contract by any stretch. Buying the NYT or a chocolate bar does not constitute a contract either.

The only exception is with buying subsidized phones for prepaid cards, in which case to have to sign a contract agreeing to the SIM-lock (and conditions for future unlocking, if applicable).

Anytime you buy something, it's a contract. You may not realize it, but it's true. You've contracted to pay a certain amount of money up front for a certain number of minutes of calls. That's a contract.

[jfanning]

Um, maybe because Italy has more active cell phones than people (literally, and the statistics include newborn babies in the count), so I guess it's a pretty interesting market.

What? You mean just like Ireland?

[solipsism]

Well, the PIN code, your own phone number and instructions for filling up the account are in the envelope. Nothing else needed. A lot of common prepaid providers do have refill self-service stations in selected supermarkets and public places (like railway stations and shopping malls) - just enter your phone number and slide in a credit card or cash - that's it.

So the SIM you are buying also comes with minutes appended. That, like Melgross stated, is a contract. It's not the typical image of a long legal document that has to be signed in triplicate, but it's a contractual obligation. If the carrier didn't give yo access to their network you have recourse to go after them for not supplying the service you expected.

In some countries you are required to fax a copy of your ID or Passport to the provider, because legislation might not allow use of anonymous phones.
Delhi was like that, but I'm told it was only for that city and not the whole of India. Pretty much a pain in the ass all around. They also cut all cell phone service for several hours in Delhi on their day of independence. I was told it was to keep potential terrorists from communicating, but I think they would go to sat phones if they were determined.

[solipsism]

if they don't announce it for Ireland, I'll be going for a Nokia N96

Why is Italy allowed to have a contract free iphone and Ireland isn't?

The article does state the following:Given that Italians are the number one consumer of pre-paid wireless contracts worldwide each year.

[anantksundaram]

Please tell me it's coming to Japan soon!

Knowing your luck, Mr. Meister, I truly hope it does not come with a tilted screen! :D

[dreyfus2]

Anytime you buy something, it's a contract. You may not realize it, but it's true. You've contracted to pay a certain amount of money up front for a certain number of minutes of calls. That's a contract.

Without nitpicking - yes, a sale constitutes a contract. In this case between me and the reseller (e.g. the operator of that newspaper stand). But besides that (District of Columbia Court of Appeals): "For there to be an enforceable contract, there must be mutual assent of each party to all of the essential terms of the contract..." This would at least require to be presented with terms and conditions - in quite some countries you can definitely get prepaid SIM cards without being told about any terms and conditions, most of the resellers cannot even give you details on per minute and data charges or conditions for reimbursement of credit. You might consider this "some kind of contract", in case of a legal dispute it is nothing.

Anyhow, the topic is not that important ;)

[melgross]

Without nitpicking - yes, a sale constitutes a contract. In this case between me and the reseller (e.g. the operator of that newspaper stand). But besides that (District of Columbia Court of Appeals): "For there to be an enforceable contract, there must be mutual assent of each party to all of the essential terms of the contract..." This would at least require to be presented with terms and conditions - in quite some countries you can definitely get prepaid SIM cards without being told about any terms and conditions, most of the resellers cannot even give you details on per minute and data charges or conditions for reimbursement of credit. You might consider this "some kind of contract", in case of a legal dispute it is nothing.

Anyhow, the topic is not that important ;)

It may be minor, but you insist in continuing it, so I shall as well. In most countries, the mere purchase is a contract, legalize missing or not. There is a part of law that "assumes" you are accepting a contract, even if you are not being presented with one.

If, for example, you "contract" to buy 60 minutes, but find that you only received 45, then you could sue. If it could be proved that you were correct, you would win.

You have to remember that a contract holds true for ALL parties.

But, your part is generally over once you pay your money.

[solipsism]

There is a lot of information in the link below, but upon perusing I did not see a spscific term outside of the general defintion of 'contract' that backs up Melgross' initial statement.• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract

edit1: It appears that this would be a "unilateral contract" in which the seller agrees to offer a service but the customer is not required to buy or use.

edit2: Some more eye-glossing reading material:• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Goods_Act_1979
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Commercial_Code

[Bageljoey]

But I am a little suspicious re. Italy being a matter of 'few weeks.' I doubt that it will be released there before it is released in the US. Second, it will p-o Apple's partners in France, UK, and Germany, so I expect that Apple will want to do it simultaneously in those countries too.

Yeah, I was wondering about this too. This is the side of the story that I find most interesting.

When AI reports that they are getting "a several month exclusive on sales of a 3G iPhone" do they mean only in Italy or worldwide? If it is a worldwide exclusive, then Apple is showing Italian consumers some serious respect. I can't imagine other countries providers would like that though...

Could they be trying to time this so that the phones are available in Europe at the same time that the regulatory filing with the FCC in the use goes public?

[samab]

Yeah, I was wondering about this too. This is the side of the story that I find most interesting.

When AI reports that they are getting "a several month exclusive on sales of a 3G iPhone" do they mean only in Italy or worldwide? If it is a worldwide exclusive, then Apple is showing Italian consumers some serious respect. I can't imagine other countries providers would like that though...

Could they be trying to time this so that the phones are available in Europe at the same time that the regulatory filing with the FCC in the use goes public?

If it's a worldwide exclusive --- then it's worse off for Italian consumers because there will be organized businesses just buying all the iphones in Italy to be exported worldwide. Then Apple will have to force people to buy by (Italian) credit card only, 2 iphones per person....

[orion99]

Something else related to the 3G iPhone:

3G iPhone in May, new mobile device at WWDC 2008? (http://switchtoamac.com/site/3g-iphone-in-may-new-mobile-device-at-wwdc-2008.html)

[thes3cond]

I will be in Italy starting June 15 for over a month. I am a T-Mobile user here in the states. My questions is, would I be able to put my t-mobile sim in the Italian 3g iPhone and have it work in the US? My Blackberry 8100 isn't a world-phone so I need to buy an Italian cellphone anyway. If the 3g Italian iPhone would work for me there and then work when I got home, I'd be in. Any thoughts?

[solipsism]

I will be in Italy starting June 15 for over a month. I am a T-Mobile user here in the states. My questions is, would I be able to put my t-mobile sim in the Italian 3g iPhone and have it work in the US? My Blackberry 8100 isn't a world-phone so I need to buy an Italian cellphone anyway. If the 3g Italian iPhone would work for me there and then work when I got home, I'd be in. Any thoughts?

I believe you will for phone and EDGE, but you aren't going to get WCDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA data because of the different frequencies used by T-Mobile in the US.

I think this is going to make a lot of T-Mobile users with unlocked iPhones move to AT&T. I know of a couple that are going to make the reluctant move when 3G comes out.

[anantksundaram]

Then Apple will have to force people to buy by (Italian) credit card only, 2 iphones per person....

So? Or did you forget to add a </sarcasm> tag?

[samab]

So? Or did you forget to add a </sarcasm> tag?

So you ended up with the Italians unable to buy the 3G iphones because they are all bought up by businesses to be exported to China.

[anantksundaram]

So you ended up with the Italians unable to buy the 3G iphones because they are all bought up by businesses to be exported to China.

And that is Apple's fault? Perhaps I am being dense, but I am not getting your point.

[sapporobaby]

Doesn't France also have "unlocked" iPhones which can only be used in France?

They have phones that are unlocked but can be used everywhere.

[dreyfus2]

If it's a worldwide exclusive --- then it's worse off for Italian consumers because there will be organized businesses just buying all the iphones in Italy to be exported worldwide. Then Apple will have to force people to buy by (Italian) credit card only, 2 iphones per person....

It will certainly not be world-wide exclusive, not even exclusive for Europe. But once they start selling unlocked phones anywhere in the world - this will pretty much be the beginning of the end for exclusive and locked phones everywhere (except maybe those countries with exclusive arrangements already in place, which is the highly interesting part here - the first will be last or so :lol:).

Of course they can limit sales per person, but limiting sales to Italian credit card holders is not really an option. There is no sustainable approach to legally discriminate other Europeans when doing business anywhere in the EU. The prepaid market in Italy is about 90% of the mobile market and credit cards are also not as common as in the US.

[sapporobaby]

Anytime you buy something, it's a contract. You may not realize it, but it's true. You've contracted to pay a certain amount of money up front for a certain number of minutes of calls. That's a contract.

Maybe it is like that in the US but in Europe you buy a prepaid card. If you do not recharge it when the credits run out, you can then only receive calls for either 3 or 6 months. Some countries allow more. This is really not that hard to understand. I prepaid contract is for people who do not want to be tied to a subscription.

[melgross]

Maybe it is like that in the US but in Europe you buy a prepaid card. If you do not recharge it when the credits run out, you can then only receive calls for either 3 or 6 months. Some countries allow more. This is really not that hard to understand. I prepaid contract is for people who do not want to be tied to a subscription.

It's still a contract, no matter what the actual deal is.

[solipsism]

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_rights#European_Union

[pooped]

It's still a contract, no matter what the actual deal is.

so if I buy gas for my car it is a contract too? I don't see how this is different:
I have a phone, I need credit to call -or- I have a car, I need gas to drive

if I pay for 60 mins and only get 45 mins I take it up with the seller,
just like when I buy 60 liters of gas and only get 45 liters.

[samab]

And that is Apple's fault? Perhaps I am being dense, but I am not getting your point.

Did I say that it's Apple's fault?

I was merely responding to the comment that Apple "showing" respect to Italians by offering 3G iphones exclusively to Italy for several months.

[solipsism]

so if I buy gas for my car it is a contract too? I don't see how this is different:
I have a phone, I need credit to call -or- I have a car, I need gas to drive

if I pay for 60 mins and only get 45 mins I take it up with the seller,
just like when I buy 60 liters of gas and only get 45 liters.

I've posted several links to it. It's a bloody contract for the sale of goods.

Using a recent example: There were people who bought gas from a station only to have their cars sputter to a stop a few miles down the road. The gas was contaminated with water. The customer has a legal right to get compensated for the gas purchased and any damage that may have been caused by the water as they did not get the goods that were specified.

If you keep thinking of a contract as ONLY as a long form with small print and cryptic writing then we are going to continue to go in circles. The links I posted are above.

[Flounder]

so if I buy gas for my car it is a contract too?

You bet it is. So is buying something at a garage sale.

[TenoBell]

if I pay for 60 mins and only get 45 mins I take it up with the seller,
just like when I buy 60 liters of gas and only get 45 liters.

A contract in its most basic is just a binding agreement between two parties.

So yes when one agrees to pay a certain amount of money for a certain product. Both the buyer and seller are entering a contract for a good or service. If the buyer does not pay or the seller does not provide the agreed upon good or service the contract in its simplest form has been breached.

[sapporobaby]

It's still a contract, no matter what the actual deal is.

Okay, just so this can move along.

So what? I pay and get my minutes. I buy them online, or go to a shop. I get exactly what I pay for. Where is the problem?

[solipsism]

Okay, just so this can move along.

So what? I pay and get my minutes. I buy them online, or go to a shop. I get exactly what I pay for. Where is the problem?

There is no problem so long as you get what you paid for.

[sapporobaby]

There is no problem so long as you get what you paid for.

????????????

Uhhhhh.... What kind of billing systems are you familiar with? Not once have I heard of a person with a prepaid subscription getting less than what he or she paid for. It looks like you are searching for problems where none exist.

[solipsism]

????????????

Uhhhhh.... What kind of billing systems are you familiar with? Not once have I heard of a person with a prepaid subscription getting less than what he or she paid for. It looks like you are searching for problems where none exist.

Have you been following the thread? This is about what legally defines a contract, not the likelihood that the prepaid card won't be honored.

But if you want examples of customers not getting what they purchased you can scour the nets for many examples. I suggest looking up the fun ones that have consoles replaced by bricks and other items.

[sapporobaby]

Have you been following the thread? This is about what legally defines a contract, not the likelihood that the prepaid card won't be honored.

But if you want examples of customers not getting what they purchased you can scour the nets for many examples. I suggest looking up the fun ones that have consoles replaced by bricks and other items.

Actually this thread is supposed to be about:

Apple said to have signed landmark 3G iPhone deal for Italy

But okay contracts are now the flavor of the day.

[TenoBell]

This is a pretty interesting turn of events. Not the most graceful change of strategy for Apple. It seems Apple will have to give up revenue sharing in Europe. People in the UK, France, and Germany will be free to buy an Italian phone and use it on which ever carrier they choose.

I don't see a problem with the partnerships. When launching a new product or entering a new market its a common business practice for companies partner. It helps give the product a supportive base as it gains brand recognition and market penetration.

The mobile phone market is completely new for Apple. Having partners in the short term gives them room to work out the bugs, develop, and grow the iPhone. As a brand it is in a much stronger position when it opens up to more networks.

From what I'm seeing the two biggest problems with Apple's strategy has been its secretiveness and the revenue sharing. Apple should have openly stated that they were entering exclusive agreements for a limited time. The first 24 months with AT&T and the first 18 months with the European carriers. After that time the iPhone could be offered on other carriers. That would have given people a clear direction in the future of their iPhone investment. As it was people did not know if the iPhone would be tied to one carrier over a short term or indefinitely.

Reversing the revenue sharing deals now means Apple should have never done revenue sharing. It didn't work. They should have just charged the carriers a premium for the exclusive sales of the iPhone and let that be at that.

It appears Apple is learning and adjusting. I imagine they are using this information and will reintroduce a stronger product in the near future.

[solipsism]

Actually this thread is supposed to be about:
Apple said to have signed landmark 3G iPhone deal for Italy
But okay contracts are now the flavor of the day.
Someone read from the article, "Italians are the number one consumer of pre-paid wireless contracts worldwide each year," and thought it an oxymoron. From their it was explained that contract is more than one's John Hancock on a legal sized paper with very small print.

[anantksundaram]

Did I say that it's Apple's fault?

I was merely responding to the comment that Apple "showing" respect to Italians by offering 3G iphones exclusively to Italy for several months.

No you did not. I was just getting that clarified.

Look, the fact that you seem to have some major issues with Apple's business methods and models is plainly obvious. I am certainly not judging that (actually, I even agree with you that is the case with Apple in many areas).

It is just that when you do proforma Apple-bashing, you detract from your own credibility: You were implying that there was no way that Apple could be capable of showing any "respect" to Italians (or whoever) since Apple is Apple and their way of doing business stinks. But to suggest that the Chinese could descend in droves (!), and that could, in turn, drive Apple to have a 2-per purchase w/CC-only policy, and that, in turn, cannot be consistent with Apple showing "respect" is a stretch.

C'mon....

[cnocbui]

This is a pretty interesting turn of events. Not the most graceful change of strategy for Apple. It seems Apple will have to give up revenue sharing in Europe.

Beginning to open the revenue sharing deals now means Apple should have never done revenue sharing. It didn't work. They should have just charged the carriers a premium for the exclusive sales of the iPhone and let that be at that.

It appears Apple is learning and adjusting. I imagine they are using this information and will reintroduce a stronger product in the near future.

You change your tune pretty quickly don't you?

Do you recall this little exchange from three days ago.?

The iPhone failing in Europe so spectacularly has put a big :D on my face - love it! :)

To which you replied:

You are playing pretty fast and loose with the facts to prove this point. You highlight certain facts and completely ignore others that don’t support your assertion.


And now you say they shoud never have done revenue sharing. So how come you didn't say or think that 3 days ago?

I said MONTHS ago that revenue sharing was greedy and would fail, I even strenuously highlighted the fact Europe is predominantly a pre-paid market - using Italy as the prime example - so trying to force contracts on us wasn't going to work.

I got a lot of grief for my views then, but being entirely vindicated by events is some consolation. ;-)

[samab]

It is just that when you do proforma Apple-bashing, you detract from your own credibility: You were implying that there was no way that Apple could be capable of showing any "respect" to Italians (or whoever) since Apple is Apple and their way of doing business stinks. But to suggest that the Chinese could descend in droves (!), and that could, in turn, drive Apple to have a 2-per purchase w/CC-only policy, and that, in turn, cannot be consistent with Apple showing "respect" is a stretch.

C'mon....

There was absoutely no bashing of apple with that comment.

What has "respect to the Italians" got to do with providing a several months worldwide exclusive to a Italian carrier in the first place?

I was merely explaining the real life practical problem with such a worldwide exclusive --- which is that those iphones would be exported. Ask any AT&T employee and they will start using all kinds of curse words --- all the work and zero commissions because they never got connected to AT&T.

So the real life practical problem is that Italian employees don't get paid for commissions of all the iphones being exported worldwide. The Italian consumers don't get much iphones because organized businesses hire kids to buy the iphones off the stores to be exported worldwide. And Italians might get offended by Apple's strict rules to reduce exportation by basically treating all Italians like the Mafia and require photo ids, paid by credit cards.

I was merely showing the practical problems of such worldwide exclusive.

The only way to show respect --- is to not charge these people extra money. The US iphone plan is the same as a regular price voice plan plus a regular price wap plan. That's respect (also that's competitiveness of Verizon Wireless).

[teckstud]

It's still a contract, no matter what the actual deal is.

Are you a professor in semantics?:lol:

[solipsism]

Are you a professor in semantics?:lol:
semantic |səˈmantik| adjective
— relating to meaning in language or logic.

The word semantic seems to have become somewhat pejorative over time. When you have so many from different cultures and different ages frequenting the same forum it is important that we define terms as best we can to make sure we are talking about the same things. As we've seen, when we have different definitions for the same words things get out of control very fast.

edit: I read that as "you are" not "are you". Mea culpa.

[dreyfus2]

This is a pretty interesting turn of events. Not the most graceful change of strategy for Apple. It seems Apple will have to give up revenue sharing in Europe. People in the UK, France, and Germany will be free to buy an Italian phone and use it on which ever carrier they choose.

I don't see a problem with the partnerships. When launching a new product or entering a new market its a common business practice for companies partner. It helps give the product a supportive base as it gains brand recognition and market penetration.

There is certainly no problem with these partnerships where they are beneficial for Apple and the customer. I do think though that Apple underestimated the greed of the carriers. Neither T-Mobile in Germany, nor Orange in France, nor O2 in Ireland did make any effort to come up with really attractive tariffs. O2 in the UK did better and the numbers reflect it clearly.

In Germany they may have sold around 100,000 - 150,000 iPhones officially (which is far below the iPhone's potential in a market that rich) and assumptions are that for every official iPhone there are at least 2 in-official ones in the country. Internet forums are crowded with people discussing problems with jailbroken/unlocked phones and multi-page instructions how to fix certain errors using Terminal, SSH and other tricks that will only scare away the average user and eat up Apple's reputation of delivering reliable products that simply work. People reading those will not care to differentiate between official and in-official problems. And now they have to lower prices to clear stock - this takes away from the "perceived value" of the product and does ultimately have an effect on future pricing and pricing in countries not even on the list yet. Even if the iPhone is and will certainly remain to be a well-deserved success overall, I think there is no denying that this strategy resulted in non-materialization of revenue and marketshare. Now having people still paying a lunatic tariff for another 23 months, while others get huge discounts, a new 3G model or simply enjoy their unlocked phone and third party apps... you do not really generate user satisfaction with such a mess and having x "classes" of users. No, Apple did not force a single individual into any of this, but if they would have just sold their device like any other phone maker and stood away from negotiating strange deals with providers, the overall reputation and adoption in Europe would be better. The iPod became the hottest selling player despite its premium price because it worked, looked good, and was hassle-free, you could buy music from iTunes or just use your own CDs or MP3s from other sources - no handcuffs. Whoever told Apple to change a working strategy has not done them a favour (IMHO).

[sapporobaby]

You change your tune pretty quickly don't you?

Do you recall this little exchange from three days ago.?



To which you replied:



And now you say they shoud never have done revenue sharing. So how come you didn't say or think that 3 days ago?

I said MONTHS ago that revenue sharing was greedy and would fail, I even strenuously highlighted the fact Europe is predominantly a pre-paid market - using Italy as the prime example - so trying to force contracts on us wasn't going to work.

I got a lot of grief for my views then, but being entirely vindicated by events is some consolation. ;-)


NICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[samab]

There is certainly no problem with these partnerships where they are beneficial for Apple and the customer. I do think though that Apple underestimated the greed of the carriers. Neither T-Mobile in Germany, nor Orange in France, nor O2 in Ireland did make any effort to come up with really attractive tariffs. O2 in the UK did better and the numbers reflect it clearly.

It's not greed, it's just a function of the level of competition among the mobile carriers.

France has only 3 national carriers --- with Orange owning 46% of the mobile market.

Germany has 4 national carriers --- but it's very top heavy (by the 2 top carriers).

Ireland has 3 national carriers (plus 3 Ireland but they only have 1.5% market share).

UK has 4 big national carriers and 1 small national carrier (3 UK) --- the one with the most number of carriers have more competition --- therefore lower prices.

US has 4 national carriers --- 3 big ones and T-Mobile (even though Sprint Nextel is a basketcase --- it is still big). And Verizon Wireless is so competitive that they said no to Apple.

[TenoBell]

You change your tune pretty quickly don't you? Do you recall this little exchange from three days ago.? And now you say they shoud never have done revenue sharing. So how come you didn't say or think that 3 days ago?

No I don't think I have. I never stated whether I thought Apple should or should not have revenue sharing. What I said is that its not entirely different from the mobile carriers traditionally subsidizes phones. The carrier is paying the manufacturer money for the phone and taking a loss either way.

I said MONTHS ago that revenue sharing was greedy and would fail, I even strenuously highlighted the fact Europe is predominantly a pre-paid market - using Italy as the prime example - so trying to force contracts on us wasn't going to work.

I got a lot of grief for my views then, but being entirely vindicated by events is some consolation. ;-)

You were playing fast and loose with facts. You did HIGHLIGHT facts that proved your opinion and outright IGNORED other facts that disputed your opinion.

[TenoBell]

It's not greed, it's just a function of the level of competition among the mobile carriers.

They had a hot potato on their hands and tried to charge as much as they could for it.

And Verizon Wireless is so competitive that they said no to Apple.

I'm sure Verizon executives were appalled that Apple would propose a phone with so much functionality and would not allow Verizon to charge an individual fee for every function.

[melgross]

so if I buy gas for my car it is a contract too? I don't see how this is different:
I have a phone, I need credit to call -or- I have a car, I need gas to drive

if I pay for 60 mins and only get 45 mins I take it up with the seller,
just like when I buy 60 liters of gas and only get 45 liters.

It is the same. They contract to sell you gas of a certain quality at a certain amount per gallon (or liter). You agree to pay them for that.

If their product doesn't meet the agreed upon standard, you can sue them. If it reaches the level of fraud, it can be a criminal action.

Anytime you buy, rent, lease a product, or pay for some service, you enter a contract.

I know people don't think this way, but that's what it is.

[melgross]

Okay, just so this can move along.

So what? I pay and get my minutes. I buy them online, or go to a shop. I get exactly what I pay for. Where is the problem?

As Solipsism has said, as long as there is no problem, then there is no problem.

It's when there is a problem that it matters.

But, I'm sure you realize that.

[TenoBell]

Even if the iPhone is and will certainly remain to be a well-deserved success overall, I think there is no denying that this strategy resulted in non-materialization of revenue and marketshare. Now having people still paying a lunatic tariff for another 23 months, while others get huge discounts, a new 3G model or simply enjoy their unlocked phone and third party apps... you do not really generate user satisfaction with such a mess and having x "classes" of users. No, Apple did not force a single individual into any of this, but if they would have just sold their device like any other phone maker and stood away from negotiating strange deals with providers, the overall reputation and adoption in Europe would be better.

I see your point and can agree. One key part of Apple's negotiations though are the data tarriffs. Much of the iPhones functionality lies in unlimited data. Through those negotiations Apple was able to get the price of unlimited data down to where more people are willing to use it.

Now consumers will actively seek out cheaper unlimited data plans for their iPhone's and carriers will be forced to offer it. This is unlikely to have happened had Apple simply released it as any other phone.

[samab]

They had a hot potato on their hands and tried to charge as much as they could for it.

It's a function of national priorities.

People were all talking about how Europe has all kinds of simlocking laws. Turns out that those simlocking laws are practically useless (i.e. let's charge 750 euro for the unlocked iphone in France).

When is the French government going to auction the 4th 3G mobile license? You can't protect French consumers when there are only 3 national carriers and the top carrier owns 46% of the market.

The US has more competition and no simlocking laws --- yet AT&T and T-Mobile USA will give you unlocking codes (for all phones except the iphone) for FREE after 90 days.

[dreyfus2]

It's not greed, it's just a function of the level of competition among the mobile carriers.

France has only 3 national carriers --- with Orange owning 46% of the mobile market.

Germany has 4 national carriers --- but it's very top heavy (by the 2 top carriers).

Ireland has 3 national carriers (plus 3 Ireland but they only have 1.5% market share).

UK has 4 big national carriers and 1 small national carrier (3 UK) --- the one with the most number of carriers have more competition --- therefore lower prices.

US has 4 national carriers --- 3 big ones and T-Mobile (even though Sprint Nextel is a basketcase --- it is still big). And Verizon Wireless is so competitive that they said no to Apple.

Makes good sense, but is actually more a point for not making exclusive agreements. Why voluntarily jump into the hot seat and annoy potential customers instead of throwing the hardware into the shark pool and let them damage each other (aka compete) for the benefit of the customer and subsequently Apple? Lower tariffs, less handcuffs, more sales and marketshare. If Apple would have charged a hundred bucks more for provider-independent models (instead of generating a monster business for thousands of dubious people on eBay), the bottom line may even be better?!

[melgross]

????????????

Uhhhhh.... What kind of billing systems are you familiar with? Not once have I heard of a person with a prepaid subscription getting less than what he or she paid for. It looks like you are searching for problems where none exist.

An older friend of mine who is technology shy, shall we say, bought a phone with a pay as you go contract. It seemed fine, until he got the contract in the mail. What he was told over the phone was just a subset of the actual contract. That had restrictions he didn't know about, or understand.

Even if you buy a card with 60 minutes, you may not be free and clear. I'm not saying it will happen, but what if you couldn't use those minutes during certain parts of the day or week? If you weren't told that up front, then all wouldn't be fine and dandy after all.

[melgross]

Are you a professor in semantics?:lol:

It isn't semantics. It's pretty straight forward.

Most people commenting on it seem to understand it.

[samab]

Makes good sense, but is actually more a point for not making exclusive agreements. Why voluntarily jump into the hot seat and annoy potential customers instead of throwing the hardware into the shark pool and let them damage each other (aka compete) for the benefit of the customer and subsequently Apple? Lower tariffs, less handcuffs, more sales and marketshare. If Apple would have charged a hundred bucks more for provider-independent models (instead of generating a monster business for thousands of dubious people on eBay), the bottom line may even be better?!

They CANNOT damage each other because Orange owns 46% of the French market. And the frecnh mobile carriers were charged with price fixing a few years back.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/french-carriers-investigated-for-price-fixing/2005-08-25

It's never going to be competitive in the first place.

[TenoBell]

Why voluntarily jump into the hot seat and annoy potential customers instead of throwing the hardware into the shark pool and let them damage each other (aka compete) for the benefit of the customer and subsequently Apple? Lower tariffs, less handcuffs, more sales and marketshare. If Apple would have charged a hundred bucks more for provider-independent models (instead of generating a monster business for thousands of dubious people on eBay), the bottom line may even be better?!

I'm sure the partnerships did not work out the way Apple intended or expected.

As much as Europeans like to bemoan US business policies. In this case part of the reason the iPhone has worked well for AT&T is because they didn't charge an outrageous contract and attempt to profiteer from it.

[dreyfus2]

They CANNOT damage each other because Orange owns 46% of the French market. And the frecnh mobile carriers were charged with price fixing a few years back.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/french-carriers-investigated-for-price-fixing/2005-08-25

It's never going to be competitive in the first place.

I see (do not know the French situation too well). In Germany the competition is actually showing some results, people changing providers is becoming more and more common, and especially voice flats and data tariffs are coming down quite rapidly (not far enough, but still...). In this climate (everybody is aware of that trend) people are even more unwilling to sign up for long-term contracts. In my very case the difference between the offical iPhone tariff and what I pay for my unlocked iPhone is roughly 5,100 EUR in 24 months (that is approx. 8,100 USD) - or the equivalent of a 17" MacBook Pro and a quite decent Mac Pro. And I am even using T-Mobile, just not the official iPhone tariff.

[teckstud]

It isn't semantics. It's pretty straight forward.

Most people commenting on it seem to understand it.

Right and all the responses questioning your contract comments are fanmail. Dream on.
However I commend you for holding everybody word for word accountable for the exact meaning of their words- a lawyer perhaps?

[samab]

I'm sure the partnerships did not work out the way Apple intended or expected.

As much as Europeans like to bemoan US business policies. In this case part of the reason the iPhone has worked well for AT&T is because they didn't charge an outrageous contract and attempt to profiteer from it.

And what AT&T is able to charge is directly related to how well Verizon Wireless is attracting postpaid subscribers. AT&T got 1.2 million postpaid subscribers in the christmas quarter vs. VZW got 1.7 million postpaid subscribers in the christmas quarter.

AT&T didn't charge an outrageous iphone plan because they can't.

[solipsism]

VZW got 1.7 million postpaid subscribers in the christmas quarter.

I thought Verizon lost more subscribers than it gained.

[samab]

I thought Verizon lost more subscribers than it gained.

Nope. You might be thinking about landline --- which both Verizon and AT&T are losing subscribers.

Verizon Wireless gained 1.65 million postpaid subscribers, 250K prepaid subscribers and 100K wholesale subscribers (i.e. GM OnStar) in the christmas quarter.

AT&T Wireless gained 1.2 million postpaid subscribers, 750K prepaid subscribers and 750K wholesale subscribers (Tracfone) in the christmas quarter.

[TenoBell]

And what AT&T is able to charge is directly related to how well Verizon Wireless is attracting postpaid subscribers. AT&T got 1.2 million postpaid subscribers in the christmas quarter vs. VZW got 1.7 million postpaid subscribers in the christmas quarter.

AT&T didn't charge an outrageous iphone plan because they can't.


Sounds like healthy open market competition to me.

[YTV]

It's still a contract, no matter what the actual deal is.

Jesus, i actually feel dumber having to read this bs.

[samab]

Sounds like healthy open market competition to me.

Which is why no matter how you structure the iphone in Europe --- it would still be a bad deal for Europeans.

There is no magic solution when their market is non-competitive to begin with.

[TenoBell]

Which is why no matter how you structure the iphone in Europe --- it would still be a bad deal for Europeans. There is no magic solution when their market is non-competitive to begin with.

Interesting I didn't know that.

Europe is generally stereotyped as being a fair place to do business.

[TenoBell]

Jesus, i actually feel dumber having to read this bs.

Its not BS.

If you bought something that did not perform the way you and the seller agreed it would. You have the right to take that person to court and force them to either give your money back or to satisfy the obligation of the product or service you payed for.

The reason you can do this is because the buyer and seller entered an agreement, which is a contract. Even if no paperwork was signed.

[melgross]

Right and all the responses questioning your contract comments are fanmail. Dream on.
However I commend you for holding everybody word for word accountable for the exact meaning of their words- a lawyer perhaps?

I think if you count the actual number of people who have agreed, and the ones who haven't, you will see a preponderance on my side of the issue.

Not a lawyer. I've owned, or been a partner in two businesses since 1973, so I've read and approved of a lot of contracts. My wife is a lawyer though. We discuss these issues more than a bit. I also enjoy language, and tend to be strict about the meaning of what's being said.

[melgross]

Jesus, i actually feel dumber having to read this bs.

Look to yourself, not to me.

You can also go to some of the links provided by Solipsism to try to understand what a contract is if you refuse to understand what I'm saying.

[samab]

Interesting I didn't know that.

Europe is generally stereotyped as being a fair place to do business.

You can't do much when France doesn't allow foreign ownership of mobile carriers and there are only 3 national carriers. You can't do much when the German government owns 30% directly and indirectly of Deutsche Telekom (which owns T-Mobile).

[melgross]

Its not BS.

If you bought something that did not perform the way you and the seller agreed it would. You have the right to take that person to court and force them to either give your money back or to satisfy the obligation of the product or service you payed for.

The reason you can do this is because the buyer and seller entered an agreement, which is a contract. Even if no paperwork was signed.

This is such a simple thing, it's difficult to understand how some can't "get it'>

I suppose they also think that downloading music or movies is fine. It's that state of mind.

[Bergermeister]

Knowing your luck, Mr. Meister, I truly hope it does not come with a tilted screen! :D

Or any number of other possible problems!

I'll have the wife pay for it, lowering the chances that my jinx will affect it.

[dreyfus2]

You can't do much when France doesn't allow foreign ownership of mobile carriers and there are only 3 national carriers. You can't do much when the German government owns 30% directly and indirectly of Deutsche Telekom (which owns T-Mobile).

Well, that is wrong. Competitors in Germany do operate, they do offer tariffs being as much as 70% lower in extreme cases and pretty much every single ruling of the government telecommunications regulation office has been against Telekom (the mother company of T-Mobile). This might be due to pressure from the EU commission, but as long as it works, fine. Telekom (even if partially owned by the government) lost around 2 million subscribers in 2007. We do have competition and it is showing results. Every phone user in Germany can freely choose the provider, tariff and the phone separately - I take that over the US situation every single day.

One single demographic is keeping Telekom/T-Mobile alive. Average age in Germany is pretty high and the vast majority of the population has grown up without any competition in the phone market. Quite a few elderly people have a terrible time keeping up with terminology, tariff options and all the decisions involved. They hold on to what they have, because it works. I needed 18 months to convince my mother to cancel her Telekom contract and sign up for a different landline and DSL provider (for a 65% saving, free installation and hardware included). This does not say nothing about the fairness of competition. It is the competitors task to reach these people, but every single flyer, ad or commercial in existence is 90-100% incomprehensible for this market. Most people will not even figure out they are talking about a phone line at all. "DSL with 16 Mbit and Fastpath, 801.11n WLAN Modem included, domestic flat, friends and family option, happy weekend option... - can I use this to call my children?"

[TenoBell]

iPhone price cut triggers UK sales rush


Sales of iPhones jumped rapidly throughout England last week, according to reports. O2 stores in London, Newcastle and Birmingham are said to have sold out entirely on April 16th, and only recently replenished their stocks. Meanwhile, a staffer from Carphone Warehouse's Oxford Street store in London says the location received a one-time doubling of daily sales from 30 to 60.

The rush coincided with a £100 drop in the cost of the 8GB phone, from £269 to £169. The cut is subsidized by O2, the iPhone's official UK carrier, and cannot be found at official Apple Stores. Similarly, the 16GB model is holding universally at the standard price of £329. It is widely believed that Apple and its carriers are clearing inventory in advance of a new 3G iPhone.

Analyst Ben Wood, of CCS Insight, argues that previously low iPhone sales have been due to a lack of subsidies, which many Europeans take for granted. It is common for Europeans to upgrade their phones without paying any extra fees, whereas the iPhone has not only been unsubsidized until this point, but has remained considerably more expensive than comparable smartphones.


macnn ( http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/04/21/uk.iphones.sell.out/)

[samab]

Well, that is wrong. Competitors in Germany do operate, they do offer tariffs being as much as 70% lower in extreme cases and pretty much every single ruling of the government telecommunications regulation office has been against Telekom (the mother company of T-Mobile). This might be due to pressure from the EU commission, but as long as it works, fine. Telekom (even if partially owned by the government) lost around 2 million subscribers in 2007. We do have competition and it is showing results. Every phone user in Germany can freely choose the provider, tariff and the phone separately - I take that over the US situation every single day.

What you do think the US situation is?

For $99 US, we get unlimited minutes --- daytime, night time, weekends, week days. And most people can afford to talk 700-800 minutes a month.

American GSM carriers don't charge unlocking fee --- they just give it to you for free after 90 days.

[NasserAE]

Well, Apple better improve the battery life for the 3G iPhone. With WiFI enabled the current iPhone battery will drain in just few hours of browsing the web and making few phone calls. I can't imagine how ridiculously short it is going to be if the 3G iPhone use the same battery without major improvement. Now, with iPhone 2.0 games, IM applications, and other programs (particularly games that uses intensive graphic and accelerometer controls) you have to make sure to charge your phone at least twice a day. A 3G iPhone with short battery life is useless.

[solipsism]

Well, Apple better improve the battery life for the 3G iPhone. With WiFI enabled the current iPhone battery will drain in just few hours of browsing the web and making few phone calls. I can't imagine how ridiculously short it is going to be if the 3G iPhone use the same battery without major improvement. Now, with iPhone 2.0 games, IM applications, and other programs (particularly games that uses intensive graphic and accelerometer controls) you have to make sure to charge your phone at least twice a day. A 3G iPhone with short battery life is useless.

According to AnandTech's testing (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3036&p=3) WiFi on the iPhone uses a quarter less battery than EDGE. With the brightness down to the minimum I can get 8 full hours of EDGE usage out of my iPhone.

I wasn't able to find EDGE to UMTS power usage comparisons between the current iPhone chip and the one Apple will most likely be using. But it won't take more than a day before we have some real world tests about battery life. Hopefully, we'll be able to limit the device to slower data speeds to conserve battery usage if we desire.

Any iPod battery pack will work, but Mophie (http://www.mophie.com/) is making an extended battery specifically for the iPhone, though it hasn't started shipping yet.

[dreyfus2]

What you do think the US situation is?

For $99 US, we get unlimited minutes --- daytime, night time, weekends, week days. And most people can afford to talk 700-800 minutes a month.

American GSM carriers don't charge unlocking fee --- they just give it to you for free after 90 days.

The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.

My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.

[solipsism]

My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month.

Don't forget that Americans are charged for incoming minutes as well as outgoing.

[melgross]

The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.

My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.

The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.

Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.

[solipsism]

The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.

Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.

"Slightly smaller than Montana"• CIA World Fact Book: Germany (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html)

[NasserAE]

According to AnandTech's testing (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3036&p=3) WiFi on the iPhone uses a quarter less battery than EDGE. With the brightness down to the minimum I can get 8 full hours of EDGE usage out of my iPhone.

I wasn't able to find EDGE to UMTS power usage comparisons between the current iPhone chip and the one Apple will most likely be using. But it won't take more than a day before we have some real world tests about battery life. Hopefully, we'll be able to limit the device to slower data speeds to conserve battery usage if we desire.

Any iPod battery pack will work, but Mophie (http://www.mophie.com/) is making an extended battery specifically for the iPhone, though it hasn't started shipping yet.

Strange!! Apple recommend turning off your Wifi to increase battery like. Personally, I have seen my my iPhone last longer when Wifi is off. I only turn it on when I want to use it, that way my battery don't die on me.

[solipsism]

Strange!! Apple recommend turning off your Wifi to increase battery like. Personally, I have seen my my iPhone last longer when Wifi is off. I only turn it on when I want to use it, that way my battery don't die on me.

Of course. Apple assumes that you want to be able to use your iPhone as a phone at any time, but you only want to use WiFi when you are near a WiFi hotspot. It makes no sense to have WiFi waiting for a connection when you are only in an EDGE capable area, so turning off WiFi will increase your battery life. However, if you are near a WiFi hotspot you will do better to use WiFi instead of taxing the EDGE processor for your data which is much less efficient than using WiFi.

[dreyfus2]

The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.

Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.

I do not even think a single carrier is present all over western Europe (unless I am wrong), but at least carriers within Germany do roaming agreements for areas where they have no own coverage and there is no additional charge for the user. I can go to any location within the country without worrying about coverage or extra charges. An iPhone user in the US cannot.

I know that a 100% coverage in the US may be unaffordable. But I did experience extremely poor coverage in quite a few areas where the population was significantly more dense than in your typical desert. And absolutely every friend from the US visiting me in Germany is singing highest praises about the call quality here, and they all come from bigger cities. Heck, I lived next door to two IBM consultants from Texas when I was working in Thailand - they wished to have Thailands mobile network at home.

[solipsism]

I do not even think a single carrier is present all over western Europe (unless I am wrong), but at least carriers within Germany do roaming agreements for areas where they have no own coverage and there is no additional charge for the user. I can go to any location within the country without worrying about coverage or extra charges. An iPhone user in the US cannot.

I know that a 100% coverage in the US may be unaffordable. But I did experience extremely poor coverage in quite a few areas where the population was significantly more dense than in your typical desert. And absolutely every friend from the US visiting me in Germany is singing highest praises about the call quality here, and they all come from bigger cities. Heck, I lived next door to two IBM consultants from Texas when I was working in Thailand - they wished to have Thailands mobile network at home.

There is no argument that the whole of Europe has a significantly better cell structure than the US. But you have to take some things into consideration. One is that Europe almost completely jumped from GRPS to WCDMA, without hardly using EDGE. From what I'm told. this came at a huge inital cost that is still not accounted for in terms of net profit.

Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard, but I do know that the main reason all these things have happened in Europe is due to GeoTechnical* reasons: an average of more than 3x as many people per square kilometer than the US and more evenly distributed number of people over the whole area.

* That apparently isn't the correct usage of the word. GeoRado, maybe?

[TenoBell]

Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard,

Yes Europe uses the same network standard so roaming is easier, each carrier network budget only has to cover an area the size of one medium to small US state. California and Texas each by themselves are two to three times larger than most all European counties.

While US carriers have had to upgrade older networks, use both GSM and CDMA, and their network budgets have had to attempt to cover nearly 4 million square miles.

[samab]

The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.

My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.

The DC area (and basically the whole north east side of the US) is Verizon's territory. A European going to the US will bring their GSM phone --- which will not get a good reception.

Sure incoming calls are counted --- but if you get more than 1.5 times the minutes as European plans for the same price --- then Americans are still ahead. Don't ask why 1.5 times, but that's what it said in some of the literature I read.

The average American talks 700-800 minutes per month --- so it doesn't matter for us if prepaid tarriff is more expensive. The average German talks somthing like 150-250 minutes per month. The bad effect for the US --- they deploy amr half rate codec which lowers the quality of the voice call.

[dreyfus2]

There is no argument that the whole of Europe has a significantly better cell structure than the US. But you have to take some things into consideration. One is that Europe almost completely jumped from GRPS to WCDMA, without hardly using EDGE. From what I'm told. this came at a huge inital cost that is still not accounted for in terms of net profit.

That's correct. In most countries (maybe all?) the UMTS frequencies were sold by auction and at least in Germany (I do not know the results in other countries) the prices paid were lunatic and to some degree based on assumptions for higher acceptance rates of video conferencing, mobile TV, dozens of value added services that nobody asked for, etc. After they had the frequencies they slowly realized that demand is just not there yet, hardware is just not there yet and prices keep falling. Now that the demand for mobile Internet usage etc. is growing rapidly, prices are almost at GPRS level (the data flat rate for 3G is 8 USD more per month than the one for GPRS in my case) and the EU commission is regulating more and more prices (they regulated roaming within Europe recently and do now look at cross-carrier connections and data roaming). Most of the prices paid for the frequencies will be borne by the tax payers (indirectly by writing off the losses) - I think this is called a zero-sum game?!

Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard, but I do know that the main reason all these things have happened in Europe is due to GeoTechnical* reasons: an average of more than 3x as many people per square kilometer than the US and more evenly distributed number of people over the whole area.

While I do not know the exact numbers myself, this is certainly close enough. We partially compensate for that by using kilometers instead of miles :no: Seriously, nobody can expect a 100% coverage in all parts of the US, when I am doing long tours through a huge national park in the US taking pictures and filming, I rent a satellite phone - no problem. What is quite obvious though is that carriers - even in rural areas - tend to delay investments to the degree possible and that is a situation we do not have here (yet). There are several areas (like DSL coverage) where we do have the same problem, just mobile networks are doing pretty well here until now.

[lostkiwi]

Or any number of other possible problems!

I'll have the wife pay for it, lowering the chances that my jinx will affect it.

:lol:
First good laugh of the day.. Thanks!

[YTV]

Look to yourself, not to me.

You can also go to some of the links provided by Solipsism to try to understand what a contract is if you refuse to understand what I'm saying.

That's the thing, EVERYONE understands what your saying, EVERYONE understands the different definitions of a contract, EVERYONE gets this because it is common sense. What you do NOT get is the fact that the people in the thread were talking about traditional cell phone contracts, and not some basic bare definition of the word contract.

[solipsism]

That's the thing, EVERYONE understands what your saying, EVERYONE understands the different definitions of a contract, EVERYONE gets this because it is common sense. What you do NOT get is the fact that the people in the thread were talking about traditional cell phone contracts, and not some basic bare definition of the word contract.

Reread the thread. This thread was hijacked by a poster claiming that prepaid contract was an oxymoron. The rest of it has been people correcting that and others disputing the meaning of the word contract.

[YTV]

Reread the thread. This thread was hijacked by a poster claiming that prepaid contract was an oxymoron. The rest of it has been people correcting that and others disputing the meaning of the word contract.

I did re-read the thread before I posted and in post #8 is where this nonsense starts. Anyone with basic common sense and a 3rd grade education can decipher what the guy in post #5 was trying to say

[Bageljoey]

I did re-read the thread before I posted and in post #8 is where this nonsense starts. Anyone with basic common sense and a 3rd grade education can decipher what the guy in post #5 was trying to say

Sure, everybody knows what #5 was saying. And just about everybody knows that technically he was incorrect. Any purchase is a kind of contract--even if people do not think of it that way in their everyday lives.
Mel is not going to be convinced to drop something just because the argument has become tiresome--if he is right (or believes he is right) he will persevere. If you don't believe that a purchase is a kind of contract, do the research and come back with some hard hitting information. If you believe that the contract semantics are pointless to the original discussion then just drop it and it will go away.
Unless some other knucklehead keeps it going.

.
.
.

(Yes, I know. I am a knucklehead my my own definition. But I did try to stay out of this, so I am a reluctant knucklehead):p

[melgross]

I do not even think a single carrier is present all over western Europe (unless I am wrong), but at least carriers within Germany do roaming agreements for areas where they have no own coverage and there is no additional charge for the user. I can go to any location within the country without worrying about coverage or extra charges. An iPhone user in the US cannot.

Depends on the network agreements.


I know that a 100% coverage in the US may be unaffordable. But I did experience extremely poor coverage in quite a few areas where the population was significantly more dense than in your typical desert. And absolutely every friend from the US visiting me in Germany is singing highest praises about the call quality here, and they all come from bigger cities. Heck, I lived next door to two IBM consultants from Texas when I was working in Thailand - they wished to have Thailands mobile network at home.

The testimonials are nice, but I never pay attention to them. I prefer more objective statements.

[melgross]

While I do not know the exact numbers myself, this is certainly close enough. We partially compensate for that by using kilometers instead of miles :no: Seriously, nobody can expect a 100% coverage in all parts of the US, when I am doing long tours through a huge national park in the US taking pictures and filming, I rent a satellite phone - no problem. What is quite obvious though is that carriers - even in rural areas - tend to delay investments to the degree possible and that is a situation we do not have here (yet). There are several areas (like DSL coverage) where we do have the same problem, just mobile networks are doing pretty well here until now.

Building out coverage in the US is much more expensive. There are also rules about rural coverage the carriers have to obey.

[melgross]

That's the thing, EVERYONE understands what your saying, EVERYONE understands the different definitions of a contract, EVERYONE gets this because it is common sense. What you do NOT get is the fact that the people in the thread were talking about traditional cell phone contracts, and not some basic bare definition of the word contract.

I know what we're talking about. I also know that when someone says something that's not correct, we feel free to correct them.

[melgross]

I did re-read the thread before I posted and in post #8 is where this nonsense starts. Anyone with basic common sense and a 3rd grade education can decipher what the guy in post #5 was trying to say

Then perhaps you should go back to school.

[mclovin]

we are going to see the 3g iphone introduced on wednesday!!! when they announce their quarterly earning :D

[sapporobaby]

The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.

Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.

Why do you think GSM was even developed? To have a homogeneous network where interoperablity between countries and networks would not be as fragmented as in the US. I can take my one phone and move throughout most of the world and get connectivity with one standard, while in the US this is not so. Te same 3G phones that work in Europe and the rest of the world will not work in the US. It is not necessarily about size but about interopearbility.

[sapporobaby]

The DC area (and basically the whole north east side of the US) is Verizon's territory. A European going to the US will bring their GSM phone --- which will not get a good reception.

Why do you say this? I travel frequently to the US, DC area, NJ/NY area and the reception is quite okay.

Sure incoming calls are counted --- but if you get more than 1.5 times the minutes as European plans for the same price --- then Americans are still ahead. Don't ask why 1.5 times, but that's what it said in some of the literature I read.

The average American talks 700-800 minutes per month --- so it doesn't matter for us if prepaid tarriff is more expensive. The average German talks somthing like 150-250 minutes per month. The bad effect for the US --- they deploy amr half rate codec which lowers the quality of the voice call.

These are the rates for one operator in Finland (mine to be exact) http://www.dnaoy.fi/en/privatecustomers/mobilecommunication/Subscriptions/Sivut/dnaIlona.aspx
but the rates are pretty much the same across the board. For an additional 9.95 Euro a month, I get a unlimited data plan. So for 30 Euro, I get unlimited data, 500 voice mins and 100 SMS. On average I would guess the plan rates are about the same.

[nvidia2008]

The Italians made Steve an offer he *couldn't* refuse 8-)

[Bergermeister]

Free spaghetti for life.

[samab]

Why do you say this? I travel frequently to the US, DC area, NJ/NY area and the reception is quite okay.

If you want any cell phone signals in the underground subway in Washington DC and NYC, then the only choice is Verizon Wireless.

Verizon is the landline provider in the northern states. SBC and BellSouth (which merged into the now AT&T) are the landline providers in the southern states. And that translates into their strengths in the cell phone world.

This is why the tv show "American Idol" has always turned out a bunch of country music winners (cingular is the old AT&T wireless).

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/06/19/cingulars-southern-base-skewing-american-idol-results/

[melgross]

Why do you think GSM was even developed? To have a homogeneous network where interoperablity between countries and networks would not be as fragmented as in the US. I can take my one phone and move throughout most of the world and get connectivity with one standard, while in the US this is not so. Te same 3G phones that work in Europe and the rest of the world will not work in the US. It is not necessarily about size but about interopearbility.

The post I was responding to was a about coverage in the US vs Germany.

More phones have world coverage. It's not a big deal for world travelers. You can get a cheaper phone to take on vacation if you really need to.

[sapporobaby]

The post I was responding to was a about coverage in the US vs Germany.

More phones have world coverage. It's not a big deal for world travelers. You can get a cheaper phone to take on vacation if you really need to.

I would say that 95% or more European phones will work throughout the world. I did have some co-workers in Kuwait that had phones from the US that did not work while in Kuwait. They had to contact Verizon or some other provider to ask them to unlock their card. This is a bass-ackwards way to do biz.

Why buy a cheap phone for trips when one will do? I can take my phone everywhere with me.

[melgross]

I would say that 95% or more European phones will work throughout the world. I did have some co-workers in Kuwait that had phones from the US that did not work while in Kuwait. They had to contact Verizon or some other provider to ask them to unlock their card. This is a bass-ackwards way to do biz.

Why buy a cheap phone for trips when one will do? I can take my phone everywhere with me.

I'm just saying that if you're on Verison or Sprint, you would have to do this.

So many people from Europe who post here, talk about all the different phones they have, that they use by just switching the SIM card, that I would figure that buying one for overseas trips would be no biggie.

[sachxn]

Apple should have done this earlier as in India everybody is using unlocked iPhone.

Sachin (http://qtp.blogspot.com)

[cnocbui]

The Italians made Steve an offer he *couldn't* refuse 8-)

8-)

Or it could be that the head of Apple in Europe is an Italian.

I think the mention of exclusivity is only for Italy. I think any 3G iPhone launch in Europe would be pretty much simultaneous in all countries if they really do drop the tied-to-contract model.

If Apple wants part of the call revenue stream, I suggest they take over Vodafone. They are so poorly run it wouldn't be hard for Steve to turn a tidy profit.

[dimitris1986]

HELLO.Does anybody know if there is any chance that the iphone will come at Greece?:???: