Montevina Delayed -- No MBP at WWDC?

[mahk]

From Gizmodo:

http://gizmodo.com/393475/intels-centrino-2-platform-delayed-upshot-no-new-macbooks-at-wwdc#viewcomments

Hope it's not true.

[SpamSandwich]

I thought it was going to be nuthin' but iPhone anyway...

[Flounder]

People seem to forget that unless it's a major refresh, apple often forgoes updates at MWSF / WWDC.

This of course, then leads to bitching about "where are the updates"

This is then followed by the updates 1-2 months later, followed inevitably by the "Apple screwed me over" bitching.

[TechGirl]

NOOOOOOO!!!! :( Ah well. I guess that puts the nail in the coffin of my waiting. If I waited until August, I would then say heck, might as well wait for Nehelem. And I do NOT want to wait six months from now. On the brink of ordering a refurb Penryn MBP. I'll max out the ram myself and be happy. It's not like it will be the last computer I'll ever get, and it is a sweet machine.

[Joe_the_dragon]

apple does not need to use the on board video they can use a low end real video chip in the lower end systems or use better ATI or NVIDIA on board video.

[Tailpipe]

This news is really going to mess with Apple's Q3 performance.

Seems like Intel is limited more by Murphy's Law than by Moore's Law.

[TechGirl]

Does it always take apple a month or more to implement and release new chips? In other words, is it pretty for-sure that it won't be until August that a montevina MB and MBP will see the light of day?

[mjteix]

apple does not need to use the on board video they can use a low end real video chip in the lower end systems or use better ATI or NVIDIA on board video.

This news is really going to mess with Apple's Q3 performance.

Seems like Intel is limited more by Murphy's Law than by Moore's Law.

On circumstances like these, it makes me wonder if Apple shouldn't diversify a little more the cpous/chipsets it uses.

All Macs expect the Mac Pro are using the same kind of cpus/chipsets, it can be good for the economy of scale, but one "mistake" and 90% of the computer revenue could be temporarly hurt.

Maybe Apple should at least have another line of computers using different (desktop?) cpus/chipsets. ;)

The dedicated GPU could add a little to the solution (since this time one of the culprit seems to be the integrated GPU), but it still uses the same southbridge.

Nehalem will make things worse since the "chipset" will be reduced to only one chip and (as far as I know) it will be the same for many platforms.

Anyway, it seems to me that Intel has move very quickly to the 45nm process, maybe too quickly as some problems have been reported with early desktop cpus/chipsets and now with mobile cpus/chipsets...

I'm still confident, but it s*cks anyway.

TechGirl:
It really depends on how many working cpus/chipsets Apple can get from Intel and when. Could be a month after the official launch or it could be sooner, it also depends on their agreement with Intel for those particular cpus/chipsets and how Intel will handle the shipping (to who first and how many). For example, Apple wasn't the first to release penryn-based computers but they had access to montevina-like cpus/chipsets for the iMac, they also seem to have 1st dibs on Xeons for the Mac Pro. So anything is yet possible.

[FuturePastNow]

I think it's amusing how you were all taking it for granted that Apple would offer machines with Montevina right away, anyway.

Who knows. Buy what you need, when you need it.

[vinea]

Does it always take apple a month or more to implement and release new chips? In other words, is it pretty for-sure that it won't be until August that a montevina MB and MBP will see the light of day?

It also depends on Intel's yields. In the "bad old days" Intel would soft launch a P4 rev with fanfare but very limited qty until much later. I guess arguably Intel soft launched tigerton to rain on the barcelona parade but supply followed fairly quickly.

[TechGirl]

I did it. I bought a refurb penryn. Can't wait to get it!

[nvidia2008]

My feeling at this stage is that WWDC is going to be so overwhelmed by iPhone 3G I don't think MBP will be announced *at the same time*. That said, I think June and July *will* see the redesigned (more like MacBook Air stylishness) MBP, not later than late late July...

If Montevina is still facing f* ups then they're ready to go with Penryn, and then bump it later.

Hard to predict through the haze of iPhone 3G MADNESS. OH THE MADNESS. :wow::lol:8-):D:embarrass

[nvidia2008]

I did it. I bought a refurb penryn. Can't wait to get it!

It's frickin fast. Upgrade (if you haven't) to a 7200rpm drive and 4GB and you'll be pretty blown away. Luckily the Penryns reduce the burning of your lap. :D

[Hiro]

Montevina is a Centrino chipset. That means low end like MacBooks. Apple wouldn't be using these for MacBook Pros at all. Not to mention the likelihood of announcing MBs at WWDC is pretty damn slim anyway. Calm down people.

[mdriftmeyer]

People seem to forget that unless it's a major refresh, apple often forgoes updates at MWSF / WWDC.

This of course, then leads to bitching about "where are the updates"

This is then followed by the updates 1-2 months later, followed inevitably by the "Apple screwed me over" bitching.

Imagine dating these people. You'd wanna shoot yourself.

[TechGirl]

Montevina is a Centrino chipset. That means low end like MacBooks. Apple wouldn't be using these for MacBook Pros at all. Not to mention the likelihood of announcing MBs at WWDC is pretty damn slim anyway. Calm down people.


From all that I've read, this is incorrect. Centrino is low end and not used in MBPs? I don't think so. Not unless Santa Rosa all of a sudden has never been used in the Pros...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrino#Montevina_platform_.282008.29

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3246&p=2

http://www.appletell.com/apple/comment/expect-montevina-upgrade-for-macbook-and-macbook-pros-in-june/

Research: it's a beautiful thing

[FuturePastNow]

Montevina is a Centrino chipset. That means low end like MacBooks. Apple wouldn't be using these for MacBook Pros at all. Not to mention the likelihood of announcing MBs at WWDC is pretty damn slim anyway. Calm down people.

Centrino is not low-end. Intel considers it to be high-end, since it gives them a complete platform that they can support, and manufacturers can put the sticker on their laptops and use it as a selling point. Originally, the marketing was business-oriented if I recall correctly.

Actually, Apple has never used Centrino on any laptop (and thus has not used Napa or Santa Rosa), since to carry that name the platform must include Intel's wireless chip. Apple sources their own wi-fi chips from Atheros and Broadcom. Presumably, Apple will continue to do this, and thus won't technically use Montevina or Centrino 2 at all.

But Apple does use the platfoms' northbridge chips, currently GM965 on the Macbook and PM965 on the MBP. The only difference there being the presence or absence of integrated graphics. Sooner or later, Apple will transition the Macbook and MBP to GM45 and PM45, respectively, but one is not "low end" compared to the other.

[Fishyesque]

People seem to forget that unless it's a major refresh, apple often forgoes updates at MWSF / WWDC.

This of course, then leads to bitching about "where are the updates"

This is then followed by the updates 1-2 months later, followed inevitably by the "Apple screwed me over" bitching.

Spot on.

[Mr. H]

Centrino is not low-end. Intel considers it to be high-end, since it gives them a complete platform that they can support, and manufacturers can put the sticker on their laptops and use it as a selling point. Originally, the marketing was business-oriented if I recall correctly.

Actually, Apple has never used Centrino on any laptop (and thus has not used Napa or Santa Rosa), since to carry that name the platform must include Intel's wireless chip. Apple sources their own wi-fi chips from Atheros and Broadcom. Presumably, Apple will continue to do this, and thus won't technically use Montevina or Centrino 2 at all.

But Apple does use the platfoms' northbridge chips, currently GM965 on the Macbook and PM965 on the MBP. The only difference there being the presence or absence of integrated graphics. Sooner or later, Apple will transition the Macbook and MBP to GM45 and PM45, respectively, but one is not "low end" compared to the other.

Hurrah! Someone who knows what they're talking about. I wish the tech sites like Gizmodo and AppleInsider would get with the program already! Apple don't use Centrino; they never have and they probably never will.

[Tailpipe]

Centrino is not low-end. Intel considers it to be high-end, since it gives them a complete platform that they can support, and manufacturers can put the sticker on their laptops and use it as a selling point. Originally, the marketing was business-oriented if I recall correctly.

Actually, Apple has never used Centrino on any laptop (and thus has not used Napa or Santa Rosa), since to carry that name the platform must include Intel's wireless chip. Apple sources their own wi-fi chips from Atheros and Broadcom. Presumably, Apple will continue to do this, and thus won't technically use Montevina or Centrino 2 at all.

But Apple does use the platfoms' northbridge chips, currently GM965 on the Macbook and PM965 on the MBP. The only difference there being the presence or absence of integrated graphics. Sooner or later, Apple will transition the Macbook and MBP to GM45 and PM45, respectively, but one is not "low end" compared to the other.

This is absolutely right. Apple uses the core Centrino platform plus a number of its own components including the GPU and wireless chip. What is not clear is whether Apple had planned to transition to Intel's own wi-fi chips or what the exact problem with Montevina / Centrino 2 is causing the delay.

Piecing together various bits of intel about the likely configuration of the new MBP, I am pretty certain that it will feature, among other processors options, Intel's T9600 Penryn chip running at 2.8 Mhz on the new Montevina board but with Atheros/ Broadcom wi-fi chips and a suitable Nvidia / ATI GPU. This essentially gives Apple a custom chipset that reduces its dependency on Intel. I suspect Apple has been working on this for some time and so, actually, I do expect the new MBP to arrive in time for WWDC. So, everyone, take a deep breath and relax.

Add 4 Gb of RAM and 256 Gb SSDs as BTOs, and you have the recipe for one neat machine. My understanding is that the basic board unit design enables Apple to design a smaller form factor. I expect a thickness of about 20 mm-22mm versus current 25mm. Not much thinner, but it will provide a worthwhile reduction in weight.

Overall benefits are a reduced power consumption for longer battery life, slightly faster processing speeds, (helped noticeably by 4 GBs of RAM), better video streaming capabilities for all you budding editors out there, thinner/ lighter enclosure in a machine that runs less hot than existing MBPs. A new tapered enclosure design, new keyboard and gesture trackpad will all enhance the overall package. It won't eat the MBA's lunch, but will be a pleasantly streamlined version of existing MBP. As I've said before, think evolution, not revolution.

In summary, therefore I believe that the new MBP is STILL ON TRACK FOR A WWDC RELEASE unless there is a fundamental problem with the primary Centrino 2 board, which seems not to be the case. (The culprit is intel's own GPU chip which I imagine is causing much derision at Nvidia.) Assuming that the basic Montevina board is on track, Apple will have already successfully integrated the other components giving it the jump on regular Centrino 2 customers.

What the delay does mean however is that new MacBooks are unlikely to arrive before August and probably in September.

[mjteix]

Not that I want to bring more bad news, but Intel's spokesman Bill Kircos declaration makes me wonder if Apple (or others) will be able to get their hands on any Montevina cpus/chipsets before the official launch, even if the problems are on the Wifi and integrated graphics parts:

Both of these led us to establishing a launch date for our mobile processors and discrete chipsets of the week of July 14th, and taking a couple of weeks to get the right readiness and volume for the rest of our components -- we're looking at early August for that.

full article here (http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Delays+Centrino+2+Platform/article11907.htm)

[TechGirl]

Tailpipe:

What about the fact that
"Apple offers nearly all its systems with 802.11n-based wireless as standard, preventing any new systems from shipping until Intel's specified August timeframe or later." (Macnn)

and

"Apparently, the Centrino 2 launch will be rolling, with some chipsets hitting in July and others following later. One of the other problems is with FCC certification of the sets with 802.11n, so that wireless N support "may see a slower ramp as Montevina can only be shipped with support 802.11 a/b/g for now." Gizmodo

[backtomac]

I don't see this as a disaster.

The Montevenia platform update looks a lot like SR was in relation to the the original merom release in the laptop lineup. A modest and measured improvement but really no reason to delay a purchase IMO.

The next 'big thing' looks like Nehalem.

[FuturePastNow]

Tailpipe:

What about the fact that
"Apple offers nearly all its systems with 802.11n-based wireless as standard, preventing any new systems from shipping until Intel's specified August timeframe or later." (Macnn)

and

"Apparently, the Centrino 2 launch will be rolling, with some chipsets hitting in July and others following later. One of the other problems is with FCC certification of the sets with 802.11n, so that wireless N support "may see a slower ramp as Montevina can only be shipped with support 802.11 a/b/g for now." Gizmodo

Apple doesn't use Intel's wireless chips.

[FuturePastNow]

I don't see this as a disaster.

The Montevenia platform update looks a lot like SR was in relation to the the original merom release in the laptop lineup. A modest and measured improvement but really no reason to delay a purchase IMO.

The next 'big thing' looks like Nehalem.

Exactly. It's a very minor improvement.

[aaroneato]

i really hope to see a release of the new MBP at WWDC, i've been waiting to buy one for about the last month, however, i'd love to get my hands on a new one. i just hope that they wont be delayed into july, due to the fact that i will need it starting in the second week of july. all the speculation flying around is killing me! if the MBP isn't announced/released at WWDC do you guys see a definite date being given for its actual release? i can wait til after WWDC but id love to have it a couple weeks prior to needed it.

[TechGirl]

Apple doesn't use Intel's wireless chips.

What is your source?

[mdriftmeyer]

What is your source?

Tear open the laptop and look.

[Mr. H]

What is your source?

It's common knowledge that Apple use Atheros and Broadcom wireless chips. Quite why places like MacNN, Gizmodo and AI can't put 2 and 2 together and realise that if Apple use Atheros chips in Macs, that means they don't use Intel WiFi, is anyone's guess.

[Tailpipe]

Tailpipe:

What about the fact that
"Apple offers nearly all its systems with 802.11n-based wireless as standard, preventing any new systems from shipping until Intel's specified August timeframe or later." (Macnn)

and

"Apparently, the Centrino 2 launch will be rolling, with some chipsets hitting in July and others following later. One of the other problems is with FCC certification of the sets with 802.11n, so that wireless N support "may see a slower ramp as Montevina can only be shipped with support 802.11 a/b/g for now." Gizmodo

Apple doesn't use Intel's wireless chips.

This is correct. And the Wi-Fi chips Apple does use are all FCC approved. So, assuming the primary Montevina board is good to go, then we're all set for a new MacBook Pro for WWDC.

In fact, elsewhere there are reports of a container ship loaded to the gunwales with a shipment bound for Apple. Can't just be 3G iPhones.

[FuturePastNow]

What is your source?

I know more about computers than MacNN.

[FuturePastNow]

This is correct. And the Wi-Fi chips Apple does use are all FCC approved. So, assuming the primary Montevina board is good to go, then we're all set for a new MacBook Pro for WWDC.

In fact, elsewhere there are reports of a container ship loaded to the gunwales with a shipment bound for Apple. Can't just be 3G iPhones.

Still, I'd caution anyone from thinking that Intel will release the platform piecemeal. They may not. They haven't even launched the desktop P45/G45 northbridges yet, and mobile variants usually come later. Reportedly, they're having trouble with the integrated graphics component, too, not just the wi-fi.

[Hiro]

From all that I've read, this is incorrect. Centrino is low end and not used in MBPs? I don't think so. Not unless Santa Rosa all of a sudden has never been used in the Pros...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrino#Montevina_platform_.282008.29

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3246&p=2

http://www.appletell.com/apple/comment/expect-montevina-upgrade-for-macbook-and-macbook-pros-in-june/

Research: it's a beautiful thing

:lol::lol::lol:

You actually believe them!!!

I suggest you go to some real technical documents and not make the basic mistake of the popular press and so badly over-simplify that the basic technical facts are wrong. All Apples motherboards are custom affairs, designed in an Intel Facility with Apple engineers on the team. Apple does not use the Intel standard distributions. Every site that says the MBP is a "Santa Rosa" platform is incorrect. Several of the components are common with "Santa Rosa", but it is not "Santa Rosa".

It's just so damn easy for journalists to ignore that little subtle difference and take the easy way out in their story so everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy inside equating Apple hardware to Intel press releases and roadmaps. But I have yet to see an Apple release or technical document saying "Santa Rosa", even though carelessly cited as the case nearly everywhere else. That is the power of the partially informed press.

[Mr. H]

I suggest you go to some real technical documents and not make the basic mistake of the popular press and so badly over-simplify that the basic technical facts are wrong. All Apples motherboards are custom affairs, designed in an Intel Facility with Apple engineers on the team. Apple does not use the Intel standard distributions. Every site that says the MBP is a "Santa Rosa" platform is incorrect. Several of the components are common with "Santa Rosa", but it is not "Santa Rosa".

It's just so damn easy for journalists to ignore that little subtle difference and take the easy way out in their story so everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy inside equating Apple hardware to Intel press releases and roadmaps. But I have yet to see an Apple release or technical document saying "Santa Rosa", even though carelessly cited as the case nearly everywhere else. That is the power of the partially informed press.

Very true. It is very grating when all the sites use "Santa Rosa" and other codenames for various versions of the Centrino platform. It's especially annoying given that there are also codenames for the chipsets (northbridge and southbridge) that Apple actually uses.

For example, Apple laptops referred to as "Napa" are actually "Calistoga"
Apple laptops referred to as "Santa Rosa" are actually "Crestline"
and Apple laptops referred to as "Montevina" will actually be "Cantiga".

The thing is, because none of the Apple press use those names, it's pointless as an individual trying to use them; no-one will know what the hell you're on about.

Having said all of that, I don't think that Apple not using Centrino makes Centrino a low-end platform. Certainly the Centrino platform has always incorporated Intel's highest-performance CPUs and mobile motherboard chipsets.

[mjteix]

Whatever way you name it, it seems that all the components of "Centrino 2" have been delayed.
Below is a quote from Ars technica:

An Intel spokesperson told Ars that the delay was essentially due to "paperwork" surrounding the wireless antennas used in the chipset. "There are no technical problems with the platform," the spokesperson said.

On July 14, the first PM chipsets (which use discrete graphics processors) will appear, along with Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Extreme Mobile CPUs. GM chipsets (integrated graphics) won't hit the market until August, as the spokesperson said Intel needs to rescreen all of the Montevina integrated graphics chipsets.

Montevina is the successor to Intel's current Santa Rosa platform, and will come in two flavors: Shirley Peak and Echo Peak. Like Santa Rosa, Shirley Peak will use a 45nm Penryn CPU and will also include full support for 802.11n (Draft 2.0). Echo Peak will build on Shirley Peak, incorporating full support for WiMAX (802.16e-2005), which Intel says will be capable of speeds of up to 10Mbps down and 4Mbps up, into the chipset.

Intel has yet to announce a shipping date for Echo Peak,

For me that means that Apple computers are also affected by these delays (unless Apple didn't planned to release updated notebooks this summer, which I doubt).

IMO, the MBP will get updated late July and the MacBook mid-August. The iMac can wait a bit longer, and the fate of the Mac mini is yet unknown.
As far as I know, the 1st mobile quad and the small package parts are still expected for September.

[kyungjin]

You just mentioned that all the "Centrino 2" components have been delayed so do you think that Montevina's delay will cause a ripple effect on the future Intel releases (i.e. Nahalem platform) and the adoption of those chips by other computer manufacturers?

[Tailpipe]

Based on past experience, I had originally expected Apple to announce the new MBP at WWDC on 9th June, but didn't expect it to go on sale before 30th June.

I still think that Apple will announce a revised MBP at WWDC (and quite possibly a new MacBook too), but I don't think either will now go on sale before 14th July and possibly later. The question is whether Apple can afford a significant gap between announcement and on sale. The answer is a probable "yes", because the order books will open, the revenues will flow and people will be prevented from spending their hard-earned dollars on non-Apple products during the crucial college buying season.

But here's something.

When you're a company as large as Apple, your new product pipeline has to be rigorously managed. You simply cannot afford to tie your fortunes to the whims and snafus of another company, namely Intel. You have to have bulletproof timelines.

Apple obviously decided some time ago that a new MacBook Pro was needed and so in developing the new model created a critical path to launch. The key factor here was not a timeline driven by the need to make a WWDC announcement, even though such a thing was desirable, but to catch the back to college wave.

After the first Penryn chips were delayed from January to February, Apple would have almost certainly expected a further delay with the Montevina bits it uses. Therefore, I am pretty certain that it was working closely with Intel to get everything ready for its desired launch timetable.

The $1,000,000 question is has Apple gotten the Intel processors and other components it needs ahead of the competition? I wouldn't bet against it.

The bottom line is that a new MBP will soon be with us, even if it is delayed, it shouldn't be more than a few weeks, a month tops.

[mjteix]

You just mentioned that all the "Centrino 2" components have been delayed so do you think that Montevina's delay will cause a ripple effect on the future Intel releases (i.e. Nahalem platform) and the adoption of those chips by other computer manufacturers?

No I don't think this will affect the Nehalem timeline. As of today:
- Q4 2008 for Server and High-end desktop cpus/chipsets
- Q1 2009 for regular Desktop cpus/chipsets
- Q2 2009 for regular Mobile cpus/chipsets
- Q3 2009 for Specialty cpus/chipsets

[Lorre]

Bah, who cares about Intel roadmaps.. The things in the latest iMacs aren't on any roadmap either... nor are the MacBook Air processors, just wait and see.

[TechGirl]

:lol::lol::lol:

You actually believe them!!!
.


Foolish? Possibly, even probably. But as I don't tear apart computers, when I want to investigate a quick fact, I'll go to the partially informed press before I believe the word of a random person on a forum. Will I take that word into consideration and go do better research? Yes. Will I believe blindly? No. I've seen too much bullshit claimed to be gospel by self-proclaimed "experts" on forums. Not saying what you claim isn't true, just saying why in the world would you be such a jerk about it? :???: Very disappointing.

[Hiro]

Foolish? Possibly, even probably. But as I don't tear apart computers, when I want to investigate a quick fact, I'll go to the partially informed press before I believe the word of a random person on a forum. Will I take that word into consideration and go do better research? Yes. Will I believe blindly? No. I've seen too much bullshit claimed to be gospel by self-proclaimed "experts" on forums. Not saying what you claim isn't true, just saying why in the world would you be such a jerk about it? :???: Very disappointing.

For someone with a handle including "tech" I would think you could actually take the time to check out the ADC site or other Apple releases for personal education rather than get whiny over a couple smilies -- after you took ME to task for not doing research! Calling me a jerk, because of my humorous response to you effectively calling me lazy and/or uninformed and getting schooled on the boomerang return is a bit childish. Grow up.

You don't need to believe me if you don't want to, but anyone blindly believing the press at face value is going to be misdirected in this day and age. Period.

Beyond that, actually proving a negative information link is awful hard. No matter how much I might like to I cannot provide that nonexistent link which says Apple denies using chipset "xxx". it just does not exist. You have to pay attention for months of press releases and hardware technotes. You need to pay close attention to posted past WWDC session videos where the engineers describe their hardware strategy. You have to pay attention to the repeated hardware tear-downs and notice that the chipsets are not exactly what the popular sites say, only use a subset of the components. You have to put all that together with logic and what is and is not said explicitly. It also helps to have liaison engineers tell you big picture stuff such as this too. I can talk about it because those were not under NDA and not specifically about any particular hardware, but that only makes it easier for me to see the confirmation in all the other venues. None of it is hidden, you just have to be able to see the big black spaceship by seeing the hole in the star-field.

Oh yeah. None of that makes me an expert, never said I was. I just pay attention and am one cynical, meticulous, SOB.

[mjteix]

am one cynical, meticulous, SOB.

I will agree with 1 and 3.

Except for the MacBook Air and the current iMac (both use custom chips from Intel), The Mac mini, the MacBook, the MacBook Pro and the Mac Pro use generic components from Intel. They may not use all the add-ons Intel offers, but the cpus, the northbriges and the southbridges used are generic components.

[PhuzzyToes]

The $1,000,000 question is has Apple gotten the Intel processors and other components it needs ahead of the competition? I wouldn't bet against it.

The bottom line is that a new MBP will soon be with us, even if it is delayed, it shouldn't be more than a few weeks, a month tops.
Thanks Tailpipe for the hope.

I'm on the market for a new MBP today. The more I wait, the more TechGirl's refurbished MBP + skip Montevina to Nehalem thing grows on me. We'll see which one comes first.

[bobertoq]

Just because the new processors are delayed doesn't mean they can't update the case. I really hope the MacBook Air will look like a giant MacBook Air! (with the power button away from the speeaker, aaand, an optional silver keyboard)

[DHagan4755]

15.6" screens in the next MBP?

Link (http://digitimes.com/displays/a20080527PD214.html)

[Hiro]

I will agree with 1 and 3.

Except for the MacBook Air and the current iMac (both use custom chips from Intel), The Mac mini, the MacBook, the MacBook Pro and the Mac Pro use generic components from Intel. They may not use all the add-ons Intel offers, but the cpus, the northbriges and the southbridges used are generic components.

But you ignored #2 with which I will gore your argument with now.

Do you always agree with an idea while calling the original idea wrong? It's not very effective logic.

The add-ons you try to warp the playing field with are the rest of the chipset marketed as a unit. So if you don't have all the "ad-ons" you don't have the marketed chipset. Period. No other way to cut it.

And that my not so friendly friend is the whole point! Apple has not used Intel's full-set marketed chipsets, ever. And this thread is worried about the delay of the full chipset, which is only really delayed because Intel is waiting for FCC approval on the wireless component chip, which Apple doesn't use anyway. So the other components of that Centrino set which Apple will use are already ready to ship should Apple want them now.

[Hiro]

Just because the new processors are delayed doesn't mean they can't update the case. I really hope the MacBook Air will look like a giant MacBook Air! (with the power button away from the speeaker, aaand, an optional silver keyboard)

The processors are not delayed. The wireless component of the Centrino chipset is. Delaying the shipping of the chipset.

Apple does not use the full Centrino chipset nor have they previously used Intel's wireless chip in a MBP so there is a lot of FUD going on in this thread for nothing.

[Joe_the_dragon]

The processors are not delayed. The wireless component of the Centrino chipset is. Delaying the shipping of the chipset.

Apple does not use the full Centrino chipset nor have they previously used Intel's wireless chip in a MBP so there is a lot of FUD going on in this thread for nothing.

also apple does not have to use intels POS gma video. And at $1500 that is a big no no.

That just goes to show how bad intel is at video chips and I don't think there cpu+gpu will work that good vs the AMD one even if the cpu part is slower the video part will blow intel away.

[mjteix]

But you ignored #2 with which I will gore your argument with now.

Do you always agree with an idea while calling the original idea wrong? It's not very effective logic.

The add-ons you try to warp the playing field with are the rest of the chipset marketed as a unit. So if you don't have all the "ad-ons" you don't have the marketed chipset. Period. No other way to cut it.

And that my not so friendly friend is the whole point! Apple has not used Intel's full-set marketed chipsets, ever. And this thread is worried about the delay of the full chipset, which is only really delayed because Intel is waiting for FCC approval on the wireless component chip, which Apple doesn't use anyway. So the other components of that Centrino set which Apple will use are already ready to ship should Apple want them now.

The processors are not delayed. The wireless component of the Centrino chipset is. Delaying the shipping of the chipset.

Apple does not use the full Centrino chipset nor have they previously used Intel's wireless chip in a MBP so there is a lot of FUD going on in this thread for nothing.

Am I the only one who can read, here?

On July 14, the first PM chipsets (which use discrete graphics processors) will appear, along with Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Extreme Mobile CPUs. GM chipsets (integrated graphics) won't hit the market until August, as the spokesperson said Intel needs to rescreen all of the Montevina integrated graphics chipsets.

The PM/GM chipsets don't include any wireless module or other add-on, those are just the north and south bridges. So, it doesn't matter if the MBP doesn't use Intel's integrated graphics or wireless modules.

If Apple planned to release a MBP with Montevina-based cpus and the PM chipset, it doesn't look like they will be able to ship those before mid-July, making it unlikely for a WWDC announcement.


**********
I still only agree on #1 and #3.

[Rockon52]

Does it always take apple a month or more to implement and release new chips? In other words, is it pretty for-sure that it won't be until August that a montevina MB and MBP will see the light of day?

The bad news does not stop there....Or should I say Rumors...The 3G Iphone may be introduced on the 9th but rumor has it that due to other delays such as getting FCC approval and various component shortages the release wont be until late August or early September...Unfortunately placing it behind the release of the new Blackberries....Now that hurts...

[Hiro]

Am I the only one who can read, here?

No. You do seem to be one who fires without proof though.

The PM/GM chipsets don't include any wireless module or other add-on, those are just the north and south bridges. So, it doesn't matter if the MBP doesn't use Intel's integrated graphics or wireless modules.

Here is direct contradiction of that: http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/GM965/gm965_diagram.htm. Each of the colored (non-gray) nodes is included in the chipset family. The rest of the document is here (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/pm965/index.htm) since the graphics back link wont work from a direct link.

Intel uses PM to signify a chipset that supports external graphics and GM to signify integrated graphics. PM/GM are for nomenclature for full chipsets. Your northbridge/southbridges are named I/O Controller Hubs when referred to independently from the CPU and rest of the chipset (the red & pink nodes).


Go find a rube that will roll over when you say Boo! You're played out.

[mjteix]

No. You do seem to be one who fires without proof though.



Here is direct contradiction of that: http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/GM965/gm965_diagram.htm. Each of the colored (non-gray) nodes is included in the chipset family. The rest of the document is here (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/pm965/index.htm) since the graphics back link wont work from a direct link.

Intel uses PM to signify a chipset that supports external graphics and GM to signify integrated graphics. PM/GM are for nomenclature for full chipsets. Your northbridge/southbridges are named I/O Controller Hubs when referred to independently from the CPU and rest of the chipset (the red & pink nodes).


Go find a rube that will roll over when you say Boo! You're played out.


Again you're wrong, all the blue parts are optional items (with different part numbers), you need some/all of those to have some kind of certification: Centrino, Centrino vPro, etc.

http://www.intel.com/products/centrino/compare.htm?iid=chipsets_body+resource_compare

In your example, the PM chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/PM965/index.htm) is comprised of:
the 82PM965 (MCH) or northbridge,
and the 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8-M) or southbridge.

The GM chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/GM965/index.htm) being comprised of:
the 82GM965 (MCH) or northbridge (with integrated graphics),
and the 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8-M) or southbridge.

For both, go down the "Packaging information" section.

In the quote that I provided many time, the Intel's spokesman talked about the PM, GM and Core 2 duo and extreme cpus being delayed not the Centrino, VPro or other ensemble of chips and chipsets.

And by the way, the northbridge is not a I/O controller hub (ICH), it is a memory controller hub (MCH). I thought you were aware of the difference.

[Hiro]

Again you're wrong, all the blue parts are optional items (with different part numbers), you need some/all of those to have some kind of certification: Centrino, Centrino vPro, etc.

http://www.intel.com/products/centrino/compare.htm?iid=chipsets_body+resource_compare

In your example, the PM chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/PM965/index.htm) is comprised of:
the 82PM965 (MCH) or northbridge,
and the 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8-M) or southbridge.

The GM chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/GM965/index.htm) being comprised of:
the 82GM965 (MCH) or northbridge (with integrated graphics),
and the 82801HBM/HEM (ICH8-M) or southbridge.

For both, go down the "Packaging information" section.

In the quote that I provided many time, the Intel's spokesman talked about the PM, GM and Core 2 duo and extreme cpus being delayed not the Centrino, VPro or other ensemble of chips and chipsets.

And by the way, the northbridge is not a I/O controller hub (ICH), it is a memory controller hub (MCH). I thought you were aware of the difference.

There aren't enough smilies for how hard I am laughing! :lol::lol::lol:

The packaging information isn't what's in he box! It's the ceramic pinout grid the die for the two large non-standardized components are mounted in! The other components are not "packaged", they are leaf components which adhere to their individual ISO/IEEE class interface standards which already delimitate the pinouts explicitly so the specifics don't need to be delineated again.

And no, blue does not represent "optional". Or are you trying to say the CPU is optional now too when you said earlier the PM/GM chipset was CPU+NB+SB? You can't even remain consistent! It's also quite obvious you did not even read the whole comparison link you posted. Fixating on Intel Turbo Memory listed as an option for the PCI-E bus. ALL the others are ✓ indicating "included".

O,h I do so admire the balls of blindly (stupidly perhaps?) citing my own top-level link as proof! Then adding another that so effectively shoots your own argument in the foot. :lol::lol: You haven't even risen to the Google 3 minutes and blather level of faux-self-designated-expert. :p

[mjteix]

bla bla bla

Since I am still waiting for my next appointment, I'll take the time to reply to you.

Of course the packaging information is not "what's in the box", this section lists the packaging of the two (and only) components of the chipset (the northbridge and the southbridge).

The link I offered is an illustration of the Centrino, vPro certifications that indeed need the wireless and other modules to be given, but even then, you have the choice of the modules, making them optional if you don't want/need those certifications.

If you need more information on what the 965 express chipset is all about, I suggest you go right to its datasheet (http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/31627303.pdf) (pdf format) and you will see that there is no wireless/wired modules included.

The cpu is indeed optional when you are manufacturing a computer, because you can choose the one you want, for some CHIPSETS you can even use DIFFERENT families of CPUs.

I've never said that the CPU was part of the chipset neither, all I said is that the PM chipset and the associated cpus were both delayed.

The PM/GM chipsets don't include any wireless module or other add-on, those are just the north and south bridges.


I believe you're the one with the fixation of being right even when you're not.

In case some of the readers wanted a summary of all this:
CPU = CPU (core 2 duo T7500 for exemple)
PM chipset = MCH (memory controller hub or northbridge) with discrete graphics link + ICH (i/o controller hub or southbridge)
GM chipset = MCH (memory controller hub or northbridge) with INTEGRATED graphics + ICH (i/o controller hub or southbridge)
Centrino, Centrino vPro = Intel's certified platforms, including a CPU, a GM/PM chipset, and some certified modules, like an Intel wireless module, for example.

[Mr. H]

Hiro, you are wrong and mjteix is right.

Look here (http://compare.intel.com/pcc/showchart.aspx?mmID=28116,145&familyID=7&culture=en-US), a comparison between two generations of the 9xx chipset. See any mention of wireless? No. That's because the 9xx chipset doesn't include wireless.

The "Centrino" platform consists of a 9xx chipset (northbridge + southbridge), a CPU and Intel's wireless chip.

A 9xx by itself is not Centrino as you seem to be suggesting.

[Hiro]

Hiro, you are wrong and mjteix is right.

Look here (http://compare.intel.com/pcc/showchart.aspx?mmID=28116,145&familyID=7&culture=en-US), a comparison between two generations of the 9xx chipset. See any mention of wireless? No. That's because the 9xx chipset doesn't include wireless.

The "Centrino" platform consists of a 9xx chipset (northbridge + southbridge), a CPU and Intel's wireless chip.

A 9xx by itself is not Centrino as you seem to be suggesting.

That's not what I have been suggesting at all. I have said all along that Centrino is a full chipset, not just a CPU+NB+SB. And because of that a Centrino delay does not force a CPU or NB/SB delay because the wireless module has not ben certified. mjteix originally stated "Whatever way you name it, it seems that all the components of "Centrino 2" have been delayed." I categorically say bunk.

I do see my error on the PM/GM chipset issue. The diagram contained within the datasheet, which is what I linked previously, is a Centrino diagram showing where the PM/GM chipset sits within the Centrino standard. I mistakenly took that and the datasheet references to wireless control as indicating the whole diagram referred to the PM/GM chisets. This error does not in the least change anything on the basic point we have both been in agreement on, that Centrino is larger than the CPU+NB+SB. Those three are the set of components Intel needs to engineer an Apple motherboard, the rest of the MB components are ala carte.

Apple and Intel negotiate delivery schedules which are not tied to open market shipping dates. Apple gets no automatic early deliveries, but are also not restricted to waiting with everyone else. Intel occaionally provides Apple components "early" or first when Apple is willing to give Intel something for the honor and it is displayed to be in Intel's best interest to do so. Apple tends to release when they are ready and sometimes that is after wider Intel component shipping, and sometimes it is earlier.

Since Intel's source to Ars was talking about the Centrino delay driven by wireless problems and integrated graphics problems, it isn't the least bit surprising that the PM-based version and GM-based versions were broken out as different. Their respective delays were different and the information merely indicates why from a Centrino perspective.

There has been no general statement that the Penryn CPU, nor the associted northbridge and southbridge themselves are delayed. Actually the Intel source went out of it's way to state specifically what the two components of the delay were, and neither were anything that will prevent Apple from including a Penryn CPU in a MBP when it chooses to ship one.

[Tailpipe]

That's not what I have been suggesting at all. I have said all along that Centrino is a full chipset, not just a CPU+NB+SB. And because of that a Centrino delay does not force a CPU or NB/SB delay because the wireless module has not ben certified. mjteix originally stated "Whatever way you name it, it seems that all the components of "Centrino 2" have been delayed." I categorically say bunk.

Nice one, Hiro.

What you say confirms exactly what I've been hearing. For all these reasons, I believe we may well see a new MacBook Pro announced next week despite rumours to the contrary.

What we probably won't see is a new MacBook. What this discussion seems to confirm is that the chipsets in the MacBook Pro and MacBook will be quite separate maintaining the distinction between the two ranges.

If for any reason the new MBP doesn't make an appearance in 7 days time, it will only be a matter of time before it arrives.

[alxths]

Does this article have any credibility?

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7605&Itemid=1

[FuturePastNow]

Does this article have any credibility?

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7605&Itemid=1

Most sources say Centrino 2 was delayed until July 14 due to problems with the wireless component.

But nothing I've read says the new processors are delayed, and are launching in late June. If that's true, the northbridge and southbridge chips will be launching with them, and that's all Apple cares about.

[sunilraman]

...And that my not so friendly friend is the whole point! Apple has not used Intel's full-set marketed chipsets, ever. And this thread is worried about the delay of the full chipset, which is only really delayed because Intel is waiting for FCC approval on the wireless component chip, which Apple doesn't use anyway. So the other components of that Centrino set which Apple will use are already ready to ship should Apple want them now.

Some very interesting discussions on this thread. My personal feeling is if Intel doesn't have its whole lock-stock-barrel solution ready to go, then this does put a delay onto all the vendors, even *if* said vendors are only using certain parts of this platform. :err:

This doesn't mean that a non-Montevina MacBook Pro would not be announced in the next few weeks. :smokey: If you get my drift...

[Mr. H]

I think we can sum it up as follows:

No Mac laptop has ever been "Centrino".

There is a very small possibility that an updated MacBook will be announced at WWDC, but it is very, very, very unlikely to be shipping immediately (pretty much the only way that could happen is if it doesn't use Intel's integrated graphics any more).

There is a medium possibility that an updated MacBook Pro will be announced at WWDC, and a medium likelihood that it will be shipping immediately.

IMHO, WWDC is going to be all about iPhone 2 (aka 3G iPhone) and that there will be a separate "special event" sometime before the end of July to introduce the new MacBook and MacBook Pro.

[casper_org]

Hi there,
I´ve finally decided to get a MAC.. after all these years of being a PC lover.. I want to get the MBP but obvoisly given all this talk of a new one coming out, im concerned it will de-value if i buy one now.. I kinda need a laptop badly for June.. If i buy a topend MBP (200GB, 7200rpm, 4GB RAM, 2.5gz).. How much do you think it will de-value by, as i was thinking of selling it as soon as the new one comes out in august or whatever...

all thoughts welcome...

[sennen]

Hi there,
I´ve finally decided to get a MAC.. after all these years of being a PC lover.. I want to get the MBP but obvoisly given all this talk of a new one coming out, im concerned it will de-value if i buy one now.. I kinda need a laptop badly for June.. If i buy a topend MBP (200GB, 7200rpm, 4GB RAM, 2.5gz).. How much do you think it will de-value by, as i was thinking of selling it as soon as the new one comes out in august or whatever...

all thoughts welcome...

wait til after WWDC, then buy - either a new release MBP or the current one if you absolutely can't wait longer than the end of june. even consider a refurb, which are fabulous value, imo. MBPs hold their value pretty well, comparatively, so i wouldn't fret about that too much.

[Hudson1]

wait til after WWDC, then buy - either a new release MBP or the current one if you absolutely can't wait longer than the end of june. even consider a refurb, which are fabulous value, imo. MBPs hold their value pretty well, comparatively, so i wouldn't fret about that too much.
A strong ditto to that advice. If you only anticipate owning the computer for two or three months then there's no reason that I can think of not to buy a refurbished unit from Apple.

[Meefle]

I too have been waiting for a new MBP. It'll be me first mac and i cant wait. A just saw an article though about Nvidia launching its mobile 9M series. Do you think it's possible for Apple to update its MBP with a 9600M GT or something? Heres the article i found:
http://www.dailytech.com/NVIDIA+Launches+GeForce+9M+Series+Notebook+GPUs/article11966.htm

[FuturePastNow]

I too have been waiting for a new MBP. It'll be me first mac and i cant wait. A just saw an article though about Nvidia launching its mobile 9M series. Do you think it's possible for Apple to update its MBP with a 9600M GT or something? Heres the article i found:
http://www.dailytech.com/NVIDIA+Launches+GeForce+9M+Series+Notebook+GPUs/article11966.htm

I doubt it. The 9600 is the G94 GPU, and that's an awful lot of heat to put in a thin aluminum case. I just don't think that's realistic., unless it is underclocked quite a bit.

And the 9500M GT that the link mentions is nothing more than a rebadged 8600M GT. They're the exact same GPU.

[vinea]

For example, Apple laptops referred to as "Napa" are actually "Calistoga"
Apple laptops referred to as "Santa Rosa" are actually "Crestline"
and Apple laptops referred to as "Montevina" will actually be "Cantiga".

The thing is, because none of the Apple press use those names, it's pointless as an individual trying to use them; no-one will know what the hell you're on about.

I think they do so because most folks have heard of Santa Rosa or Centrino but not Crestline or Cantiga. Within the context of Apple, I think it is understood that Apple picks and chooses which Intel parts to use from the current families in production. Saying Santa Rosa or Centrino 2 is a short cut to easily identify a generation vis a vis their windows counterpart.

[vinea]

If that's true, the northbridge and southbridge chips will be launching with them, and that's all Apple cares about.

Not for the MacBook and Mini. Well MacBook is important in their product line anyway...the X3100 is "dissapointing". The X4500 hopefully less so. HDCP support across the entire line might be kinda nice for Apple strategically.

Someone still has to explain to me why Apple doesn't seem to use hardware decode if it's available except on the aTV. Or does Leopard?

[Joe_the_dragon]

Not for the MacBook and Mini. Well MacBook is important in their product line anyway...the X3100 is "dissapointing". The X4500 hopefully less so. HDCP support across the entire line might be kinda nice for Apple strategically.

Someone still has to explain to me why Apple doesn't seem to use hardware decode if it's available except on the aTV. Or does Leopard?

There are low cost video chips with HDCP / HDMI and apple does not need to use intel on board video. Aslo the mini needs to start useing desktop CPU's, RAM, and chipsets.

[vinea]

There are low cost video chips with HDCP / HDMI and apple does not need to use intel on board video. Aslo the mini needs to start useing desktop CPU's, RAM, and chipsets.

Yes, but they are currently using the GMAs and if its on board then it's "free". It would be nice if they used a better integrated or discrete GPU but it doesn't seem to be in the cards.

And no, the mini doesn't need to start using desktop CPU's, RAM and chipsets. Some folks think that might be nice but it's hardly a requirement and arguably not desireable for all folks.

[Joe_the_dragon]

Yes, but they are currently using the GMAs and if its on board then it's "free". It would be nice if they used a better integrated or discrete GPU but it doesn't seem to be in the cards.

And no, the mini doesn't need to start using desktop CPU's, RAM and chipsets. Some folks think that might be nice but it's hardly a requirement and arguably not desireable for all folks.

they need to drop the price and put a dvd/rw and 2gb of ram in the base system.

[backtomac]

they need to drop the price and put a dvd/rw and 2gb of ram in the base system.

You're getting warmer, JTD.

[Mr. H]

I think they do so because most folks have heard of Santa Rosa or Centrino but not Crestline or Cantiga.

My point is that no-one's heard those names because the press doesn't use them. Chicken and egg.

[Hiro]

Yep, lowest common denominators turning into tech journalists. A problem with not having knowledgeable folks actually doing the writing is the common press has no idea of how to communicate precise information in an understandable manner. So it's straight to greatest hits buzzword bingo and sweeping statements.