Windows 7 starts race with Apple to full multi-touch desktop OS

[AppleInsider]

The first public showing of Microsoft's next major Windows update reveals an operating system with a familiar-looking dock and a more than slight emphasis on multi-touch displays.

Demonstrated at the Wall Street Journal's D6 Conference, Windows 7 is described by observers from the newspaper as having a touch interface recognizable to "anyone who’s ever used an iPhone."

Similar to what was demonstrated a year ago with the Surface table -- as well as applications preloaded on the iPhone -- the operating system will let users zoom into and rotate photos or maps using natural finger-based gestures, including pinching and flicking. Users can also draw multiple points at once a new version of Paint.

There will also be hooks for multi-touch throughout the entire Windows interface, Microsoft's Julie Larson-Green has said while demonstrating the technology, although none of these have been demonstrated at this early stage. The software is being built with multiple simultaneous users in mind now that touchscreens and other peripherals free users from being tied to a keyboard.

"In the next few years, the roles of speech, gesture, vision, ink, all of those will become huge," adds Microsoft chairman Bill Gates.



The technology to implement the feature outside of the multi-thousand-dollar Surface is already getting close, according to Larson-Green. An example Dell Latitude XT modified to recognize multiple inputs can already perform some of the functions with reasonable accuracy, while a larger desktop LCD smaller than the Surface is closer to Microsoft's intended experience.

While such technologies are expected to ultimately filter into most computer technology over time, their appearance at D6 effectively begins a race between Apple and Microsoft to commercialize a fully multi-touch desktop operating system. Apple is the first of the two to put any multi-touch product into the market with 2007's iPhone, but the Mac maker has so far limited its computer support to an enhanced trackpad for certain MacBooks that has only a handful of uses in Finder as well as some built-in apps, such as iPhoto.

The Cupertino, Calif.-based firm has all the same taken early steps to develop and patent forms of multi-touch that would extend to a whole software platform, including pressure-sensitive screens as well as unique advanced multi-touch surfaces that would be used for typing in addition to gesture input. The iPhone by itself has over 200 associated patents, many of which relate to its multi-touch display.

Whichever of the two wins the contest for touch interfaces, Microsoft may also have to explain a more conventional similarity in Windows 7 when it arrives as soon as late 2009. The still very young operating system features a revamped, more colorful taskbar and the conspicuous addition of a Mac OS X-like dock for quickly managing apps.

"Multi-touch and a Dock. In Windows," comments the Journal's John Paczkowski. "Steve Jobs would be proud."[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=4112)

[IAmMacUser]

Imagine a virus being able to steal your fingerprints or give you an electric shock, Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to Windows 7

[MsNly]

Imagine a virus being able to steal your fingerprints or give you an electric shock, Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to Windows 7

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[acvball92]

Imagine a virus being able to steal your fingerprints or give you an electric shock, Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to Windows 7

hahaha very funny
i love how the lady kept on referring to the iphone, made me feel good knowing i own several apple products

[svesan03]

Anyone who would use anything Microsoft makes unless they absolutely, positively had to must be nuts, or, retired with too much time on their hands. I dream of the day when the two programs I need for my work become web based and I can finally take my copy of Windows out and put a bullet in its brain.

Mind you, I'm surprised the demo went off at all, I saw the demo on their speech recognition software, THAT was hilarious! :lol:

[hmurchison]

When MS starts hyping a feature you know it's become passe.

The race to make a fully multi-touch desktop is absolutely absurd. Geez thanks
you've turned my computer into a Kiosk. I'm impressed.

Tell me why I would rather reach up and take two fingers and pinch or extend them to resize a picure when a mouse click in the area and a scroll of the mouse wheel could do the same thing with less effort?

Is this really what "innovation" has come to? You mean to tell me that the thousands of 1500+ SAT Comp Sci students over the years have put their thinking caps on for this?

Clearly MS has lost their minds and if Apple is trying to push the same absurdity they've lost theirs as well. Multi touch desktops are an anathema to ergonomic computing if you're talking about computing on a vertical surface. It's just a horrible idea.

Someone today with a rotator cuff injury could still compute. They certainly couldn't multi touch on a vertical screen without severe pain.

Multi touch is fine on a small portable device where you want to eschew a keyboard and mouse but makes absolutey NO sense on a deskop.

"Have IQs suddenly dropped while I was away?"

Lt Ripley

[11thIndian]

For desktops, Apple's solution might be closer than anyone thinks. What's to stop Steve from unleashing a mult-touch "keyboard/screen" onto the public within the next year? As a USB peripheral, people would just need to buy it and install the software update which enables the functionality.

MacPro's, iMac's, and Mini's would immediately be able to upgrade; while laptops would have to wait for a hardware revision which would essentially see two screens instead of a screen and a keyboard.

I can't wait for this. Customized interfaces that suit every application.

Bring it on!

[backtomac]

When MS starts hyping a feature you know it's become passe.

The race to make a fully multi-touch desktop is absolutely absurd. Geez thanks
you've turned my computer into a Kiosk. I'm impressed.

Tell me why I would rather reach up and take two fingers and pinch or extend them to resize a picure when a mouse click in the area and a scroll of the mouse wheel could do the same thing with less effort?

Is this really what "innovation" has come to? You mean to tell me that the thousands of 1500+ SAT Comp Sci students over the years have put their thinking caps on for this?

Clearly MS has lost their minds and if Apple is trying to push the same absurdity they've lost theirs as well. Multi touch desktops are an anathema to ergonomic computing if you're talking about computing on a vertical surface. It's just a horrible idea.

Someone today with a rotator cuff injury could still compute. They certainly couldn't multi touch on a vertical screen without severe pain.

Multi touch is fine on a small portable device where you want to eschew a keyboard and mouse but makes absolutey NO sense on a deskop.

"Have IQs suddenly dropped while I was away?"

Lt Ripley

You make some nice points, but in all fairness the lady who demoed the multi-touch features did mention that it would complement the traditional input methods, ie. mouse and keyboard.

How about a touch pad to use for multi-touch input? I do think Apple will use mt as an input method on all its computers in some fashion. I also believe they will do it differently than MS and hopefully better and more thought out.

I can't wait to see 10.6.

[dagamer34]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

[bdkennedy1]

I don't think Apple cares if Microsoft is the first to the table with touch screen PC's because Apple already has the iPhone, which is OS X.

Most of the public is not ready for a multi-touch Windows 7 PC. It may be built in, but most people won't use it except on small devices.

Who gives a flying fu** about Bill's multi-touch extravaganza. Just get the damn OS into the modern ages and working right. No, wait.... they put MinWin off until 2013. The world will have to stick with Vista and Vista 2 until then.

[hmurchison]

You make some nice points, but in all fairness the lady who demoed the multi-touch features did mention that it would complement the traditional input methods, ie. mouse and keyboard.

How about a touch pad to use for multi-touch input? I do think Apple will use mt as an input method on all its computers in some fashion. I also believe they will do it differently than MS and hopefully better and more thought out.

I can't wait to see 10.6.

I just wonder aloud "at what cost to consumers?"

Multi touch screens rank pretty low on my desirability scale but screens with a larger gamut of colors and higher PPI rank high.

Applications that are responsive under all situations rank highly with me. Applications that rotate and shuffle pictures around with my finger input do not.

This is attempting to recreate the wheel. I'm sure it'll complement current input methods but if multi touch is a game changer i'll gladly eat my words 5 years from now.

[Geddy Lee's Nose]

Think the touch screen could be useful for artists in using digital sculpting programs like Zbrush. Seems like a solid alternate to buying one of those 2 grand wacom tablet. Other than that it, would take some convincing to purchase. Seems like reaching out to touch on the screen would require far more effort than just clicking and dragging with the old-fashioned mouse.

[Phlake]

The thing that I dislike most about Microsoft's solution is the apparent disconnect between the actual touches and what happens onscreen.

For example, on the iPhone, try enlarging an image. Your fingers will stay in about the same place in the image. If you started on a face and a hand, you will end on a face and a hand.

Everything I've seen from Microsoft seems to just use the gesture, not the locations. Look in the video at the enlarging images: the pictures grow disproportionately quickly.

I think that touch is best used for the direct manipulation of data. Redmond apparently disagrees.

[kim kap sol]

I'll have to agree with hmurchison here...the utility of multitouch for desktop is extremly low...even on custom apps that would make fascinating use of multitouch such as paint apps or photo organization apps, nobody in their right mind would have their hands on their desktop display for more than a few seconds before getting tired.

Multitouch works better on small surfaces. Microsoft is barking up the wrong tree with their multitouch ventures.

Two things wrong with what they demoed:

1. Both hands reaching a screen to zoom in on pictures and rotate them. As hmurchison has said, nobody's gonna prefer that method over the mouse because the effort involved is an order of magnitude greater.

2. The concept of the demo itself is flawed considering spatial handling organization of pictures is absolutely the last thing on anyone's mind. People prefer apps like Picassa, iPhoto, Aperture, etc. because they take care of the organization for the user. We're moving *away* from spatial organization. Computers are here to solve spatial problems that we're confronted with in the real world. Bad demo...MS could have picked something that made more sense to show off the multitouch feature.

[miniMoe]

Windows 7... carrying on a long tradition of copying Apple.

[retroneo]

The XO-2, scheduled for 2010 is the best concept yet. Dual multi-touch displays that can be used as a keyboard too. You can open it like a book as well as an e book reader. Nice.

I think this is the direction Apple will head. Nov 2009 MacBook Pro with dual multi-touch displays and Mac OS X 10.6??

Apple will no longer need to produce a different computer with a different keyboard for each country too!

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/7659-olpcxo2.jpg

[Ireland]

This video was cringeworthy!! It was embarrassing for MS. All the lagging, a number of touches not responding to the girls finger, repeat mentioning of the iPhone, nothing in any way revolutionary. I almost couldn't watch it. Poor Bill, we feel for you. What in the heck was that keyboard on the screen? It looked like bloody 8bit graphics.

[Ireland]

The XO-2, scheduled for 2010 is the best concept yet. Dual multi-touch displays that can be used as a keyboard too. You can open it like a book as well as an e book reader. Nice.

I think this is the direction Apple will head. Nov 2009 MacBook Pro with dual multi-touch displays and Mac OS X 10.6??

Apple will no longer need to produce a different computer with a different keyboard for each country too!

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/7659-olpcxo2.jpg

Dual screens eat twice the battery life. That is reason alone to forget about that idea. No, I think the tablet is where it's at. If done right it could take away some of the notebook market which will stay around for years to come.

I hate to keep on reminding people, but... shall we say, Mac touch FTW!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2381453879_5e11b0097e_o.png

[Rot'nApple]

For desktops, Apple's solution might be closer than anyone thinks. What's to stop Steve from unleashing a mult-touch "keyboard/screen" onto the public within the next year? As a USB peripheral, people would just need to buy it and install the software update which enables the functionality.

MacPro's, iMac's, and Mini's would immediately be able to upgrade; while laptops would have to wait for a hardware revision which would essentially see two screens instead of a screen and a keyboard.

I can't wait for this. Customized interfaces that suit every application.

Bring it on!

I think if any "computer" came out as a touch screen it would be redesigned kinda in the triangular shape of a keyboard only extended with a slight swoop upwards and outwards of the "monitor" with some nice "curve" appeal" (c'mon Jonathon Ives), but both pretty much laying flat on your desk. The keyboard would not have physical keys but like the multi-touch keyboard of the iPhone and the screen would have to be flat on the table, otherwise who wants to be raising their arms all the time to use their fingers to gesture the icons and such. So we get rid of the keyboard and mouse and have an iMac like all in one unit but not standing vertically upright as an iMac screen looks now but as if you took the iMac and laid it flat on top of you desk. Of course instead of carpal tunnel syndrome in your wrists you'd always have a crick in your neck from constantly looking down. :grumble:

Anyone else out there have a design idea as to how to make a multi touch, touch screen computer/laptop? What would yours look like? :wow:

[labrats5]

Dual screens eat twice the battery life. That is reason alone to forget about that idea. No, I think the tablet is where it's at. If done right it could take away some of the notebook market which will stay around for years to come.

I hate to keep on reming people, but Mac touch FTW!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2381453879_5e11b0097e_o.png

Um... what? the screen is no longer the main energy draw for a laptop. Not by a long shot. And the situation will get even better once OLED becomes affordable in the next few years. besides, two screens with total surface area X will not consume much more power than a single monitor with surface area X, so if this technology stays on smaller laptops (which seems to be the case) I don't see the energy requirements being absurd. Abandoning rotating hard drives and optical drives more than makes up for it in terms of battery life.

Mind you, I still think it's a terrible idea, but not for that reason.

[alandail]

some of the comments in this discussion sound a lot like the comments 24 years ago about the mouse. The mouse never replaced the keyboard, but it sure did a heck of a job supplementing it and making computers both easier to use and more functional. Touch/multitouch has the potential to advance user interface in much the same way.

Forget the MS demo, which was awful (I love how when the reporters weren't saying "works like like an iPhone", they asked about the new mac style dock) and instead just look at the Mac and the iPhone.

Both have cover flow - it's a heck of a lot easier to use coverflow on the iPhone than on the Mac - i.e. you don't need to hit a scroll bar with a mouse to start moving through the list, you just flip through with your finger. And after nearly a year of using an iPhone, I have yet to wish I could hook a mouse up to it.

Both have safari - one works with mouse and keyboard, the other works with multi-touch. Both UIs work quite well. And again, it would certainly be easier to scroll safari on the mac if you could just flip it with your finger instead of having to hit the scroll bar with the mouse to get started.

And just because the iPhone has a small screen doesn't at all mean multi-touch is only suited for a small screen. My #1 desired feature in a future iPhone would be a larger screen, which would make Safari, Mail, Maps, iPod, etc, all work even better.

Apple didn't do an iPhone first because they don't thing multi-touch would work on a desktop computer, they did it first because it was a huge untapped market where they could innovate and there was no legacy installed codebase to deal with during a transition period.

Just as MacOS X runs the iPhone, I'm sure Cocoa Touch runs on prototype macs in Apple's labs, and not just in an iPhone emulator.

[bobertoq]

Imagine a virus being able to steal your fingerprints or give you an electric shock, Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to Windows 7
:lol: hahah

Ahhh.... just another example of how Microsoft copies Apple...

"
Mhh.... Hey Bill! Start your iPhotocopier! Look! Apple just released this thing called an iPhone with 'multi-touch features'
oh my gooosh! GROOOOVY! They also released a a MacBook Air and Pro with these features of multi touching!
-- that's amazing! I'll go get my iPhotocopier...
"

:rolleyes:

[Project2501]

Both have cover flow - it's a heck of a lot easier to use coverflow on the iPhone than on the Mac - i.e. you don't need to hit a scroll bar with a mouse to start moving through the list, you just flip through with your finger. And after nearly a year of using an iPhone, I have yet to wish I could hook a mouse up to it.

Both have safari - one works with mouse and keyboard, the other works with multi-touch. Both UIs work quite well. And again, it would certainly be easier to scroll safari on the mac if you could just flip it with your finger instead of having to hit the scroll bar with the mouse to get started.

Don't you have scroll wheel in your mouse? You most certainly don't have to grab scroll bars to make either of these functions to work. And if you use notebook, every notebook since G3 lineup has had two finger scrolling, whitch is very intuitive and usable.

[Solar]

Don't you have scroll wheel in your mouse? You most certainly don't have to grab scroll bars to make either of these functions to work. And if you use notebook, every notebook since G3 lineup has had two finger scrolling, whitch is very intuitive and usable.

I believe two finger scrolling first became available on the last revision of the powerbook, just before the intel transistion.

[SpamSandwich]

Good lord. Haven't we been over all this, what.... about a thousand times!!!

[just_a_guy]

What apple did with the iphone was to test the waters with multi touch and now that it is a proven technology, all we have to do is wait for them to make the screen larger and the device more powerful for us to see a desktop. Not only that, but I feel that apple has in store a laptop which does someting with touch that goes beyond what the widows 7 demo has shown us: I'm thinking that apple will elminate the keyboard and decide to use a multi touch screen on the bortom of the laptop and keep the current top screen: They will offer the best of two worlds like the Nintendo DS has done (just an example). And by allowing the bottom screen to be controlled in such a way makes the sky the limit for what you can do with the laptop:
you could have the top screen flip around in a way that you can turn the computer into a tablet at any moment, you could have a standard keyboard be the bottom screen, you coulld have all the tools for photoshop be accessed by a touch of the finger on the bottom screen, you could have safari pages that span two screens at once, You could have a version of WOW that has custom controls set to the bottom screen that allows for access to spells at the touch of a finger, as well as movement, and have a chat keyboard pop up whenever you need to chat, as well as put some user defined buttons be placed on the large bottom screen

Heck, The bottom screen could elminate the need for a mouse or trackpad if used correctly.


This is the type of direction that I see apple moving towards. While Microsoft is stuck with a single screen and limited multi touch controls, apple will be alowing for two screens and the developer to add their own controls the way they feel the application would work best.

This is just a thought.

[success]

When MS starts hyping a feature you know it's become passe.

The race to make a fully multi-touch desktop is absolutely absurd. Geez thanks
you've turned my computer into a Kiosk. I'm impressed. Dumb, but funny :lol:.
It's an option. You can use it or not. I'd at least like to have the option.

[Neutrix Pound]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.
Enjoy a little Jedi reference late night I do...

[alandail]

Don't you have scroll wheel in your mouse? You most certainly don't have to grab scroll bars to make either of these functions to work. And if you use notebook, every notebook since G3 lineup has had two finger scrolling, whitch is very intuitive and usable.

No scroll-wheel on my trackball, and it doesn't really change the point I was trying to make - that there are times direct manipulation is going to just work better. Take the coverflow example, once you scroll, you likely want to open the the thing you just scrolled to. If you use a scrollwheel, you likely don't know quite where the mouse cursor is, you have to find it and move it to the thing you want to open. The way it works on the iPhone, your finger is already where you need it once you scroll to the thing you were looking for.

Perhaps a better example - it's easier to have your hand touch a link to go to another web page than it is to have your hand grab a mouse, move it enough to see the cursor, move that cursor to the link and click.

Another example, you're working on an image with an editing tool and want to zoom up on your work. Wouldn't it be easier to just pinch zoom than to have to go select a magnifying glass tool, do your zoom, then go back and reselect the tool you were using with the mouse?

Let multi-touch supplement the mouse the same way the mouse supplements the keyboard. Get a desktop implementation that's as well thought out as the iPhone UI before you decide it's useless in a desktop environment.

[Slewis]

Null.

[Project2501]

I believe two finger scrolling first became available on the last revision of the powerbook, just before the intel transistion. Official support maybe, but the machines have had the ability long before that. See: iScroll2 (http://iscroll2.sourceforge.net/), works perfectly

[alandail]

A trackball eh? I prefer my trackpad, it's much easier to go between the keyboard (my primary input method), and the trackpad (that input method that gets used whenever there's not a keyboard shortcut or not one that I know yet). Anyway, that aside, the problems you are describing of not knowing where the cursor is simply don't exist, that thing that's moving? That's the cursor whenever you move your mouse/trackball/trackpad and there is no need to hunt that down before you even touch your mouse/trackball/trackpad.

And on the contrary, it is much more precise for me to be able to point to a link via a proxy (through my trackpad) which is smaller than my finger to click a link than it is for me to reach out and touch the link on my screen, particularly since the environment I'm working in was designed for a mouse cursor to begin with and the buttons, links, and menus are designed and sized exactly for that.

Sebastian

I'm typing right now - the mouse is not visible on the screen because the OS has properly obscured it. It doesn't become visible until I move the mouse slightly. If I've been typing for a while, I won't remember where I last left it, so don't know until I move it slightly if the button I want to press is to the left, right or directly below the mouse. I'm on a mac pro with dual displays, one 30 inches, one 24 inches. There are times I don't know what screen my mouse is on, much less where on the screen it is. It takes a small movement for the on screen mouse to become visible, and perhaps a bit more movement to have it move enough to see. In the time it takes to lift my hand off of the keyboard and grab the trackball, I could have instead reached that same hand off of the keyboard and touched the "submit reply" button. Both the trackball and the button are roughly the same distance from my hand, there is no having to look for the on screen mouse to move it to the button, I could just touch the button. Just because it's become so routine that you don't notice it doesn't mean that there's not extra time involved.

And buttons and links aren't designed precisely to be easy to hit with a mouse. Quite the contrary, the only thing on the screen that is designed to be easy to hit with the mouse it the main menu bar and the dock, which take advantage of being on the edge of the screen to give them effectively infinite height, thus making them easy to hit. Buttons and links on the screen are designed to look nice. And the smaller they are, the more time it takes to mouse over them.

Again, I'm suggesting that a touch/multitouch screen be a supplement for the mouse, not a replacement. Just as you have the option of typing command-x to cut instead of using the mouse to select the cut menu, you could have the option of touching a button instead of moving the mouse over it and clicking.

And, again, you have to look no further than the iPhone to see that a well thought out touch screen interface can certainly work quite well.

[Hutcho]

Well done Microsoft, you're keeping up your consistency with being behind the times as usual. All I saw there was a demonstration of what Apple brought to market over 1 year ago, but by the looks of it, in a really awkward and buggy way. Disgraceful, but typical Microsoft shit. If they didn't have their OS monopoly from early on, this company would be dust long ago.

And besides, I really don't think this multi touch interface has much presense in the desktop market. In some specific niche situations, sure. But with the drop in prices for LCD screens, it's not going to be long before 30" screens are standard. Who the hell sits close enough to their 30" screen to be touching it all the time? Not to mention getting it all smudged up.

In her demonstration, almost every task she did seemed awkward. The only one that seemed remotely natural was the maps application, but I'd still rather use a mouse to do that, rather than having to move my arm towards the screen. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a useful thing to have, but it's no revolution like the iPhone was, it's just a rehash but done in a less impressive way. Again, Microsoft being consistent.

Where multitouch is good is on small devices where there is no mouse or keyboard and you've got the device in your hand anyway.

[8CoreWhore]

Ever notice when they demo multi-touch on big screens, it's always doing something stupid? They're just fooling around, not really being practical and productive. I agree that on a vertical surface it's just plain dumb, except for kiosks. It belongs on portables and keyboards, NOT monitors. Typical MS. They just don't get it.:no:

[Marvin]

I bet Ballmer was cringing at the iphone references. I guess the fact that the screen is so unresponsive would at least assure him it's not really like the iphone.

Did they expect people to be impressed with the map thing? I don't even know why they would demo that on a computer. So what if you can get directions, what good is it to you when you walk out the door?

The iphone has these maps in your pocket as you go to where you need to go.

The painting application was horrendous. I get better output than that from current touch displays. The only advantage here is that you can make multiple unrecognizable squiggles at once.

In a way I wish their demo had been better so that Apple had something to worry about and start the desktop touch movement but this is not even competitive with current products.

[bugsnw]

Instead of fingering Google Maps (when MS wants to buy Yahoo) and giving away the fact that they are going to steal the Dock from OS X, she should have shown what a marvelous improvement multi-touch will be for those that enjoy porn on their big 30" LCDs.

Just imagine interactive, near-real-life, fleshy responses to pinching, circles, spreading, poking, sliding, scraping, using 2 fingers, 3, 4, 5...

Then, in Steve Jobs style, they could have announced ONE MORE THING, which would have been a screen you can use your tongue on.

All kidding aside, what a waste of time. A girl back in college touched my NeXT Monitor with her orange cheetos finger and I've never forgotten her.

From an ergonomics standpoint, has MS done the math on how many trillions of miles all this movement is going to add to our work lives? I can accomplish much of what I saw by moving my mouse half and inch and scrolling.

[Jensonb]

Okay, I see where they're going with that. I think Microsoft's technology for implementing it is fundamentally flawed though. And I suspect OS X Version 6 Cougar or whatever they call it will beat it to market with a better implementation (Drawing on Apple's existing Multi-Touch technology and associated patents, first in an iMac, then in keyboards, notebooks and displays.

In other commentary, they're copying the Dock. How backward is that? The Dock was Apple's answer to user's calls for something like (But not) a taskbar. Now Microsoft, whose dull thinking concocted the taskbar, is copying the Dock.

Oh well, whatever makes Windows more bearable I suppose.

[grayum]

this is just so sad M$. I'd just like to see Adobe make all their Apps compatible.

For me, I believe that Apple will be looking into 3D for the next OS - its all about the user experience.....

[pooped]

I'm thinking that apple will elminate the keyboard and decide to use a multi touch screen on the bortom of the laptop and keep the current top screen: They will offer the best of two worlds like the Nintendo DS has done (just an example). .

last week was the first time in ages that I went back from my macbook to my desktop computer to type something and I couldn't believe how much smoother and faster I could type there than on the macbook.
"eliminate the keyboard" I think not. to have your fingers feel the sides of the keys makes everything so much smoother, no accidental wrong letter inputs, like on the iphone.

Another example, you're working on an image with an editing tool and want to zoom up on your work. Wouldn't it be easier to just pinch zoom than to have to go select a magnifying glass tool, do your zoom, then go back and reselect the tool you were using with the mouse?

oh what a bunch of horse cr*p!
people who work with any imaging software will have learned the keyboard shortcuts:
to zoom the pic you're working on in photoshop is: command&+ or command&-
this works way faster than either mouse input or multi-touch pinching (which will also rotate your picture: BLEH!)
and like another comment said: how many people don't know how to use command&C and command&V for copy and paste???

[Slewis]

Null.

[kamochan]

Don't you have scroll wheel in your mouse?

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

[wheelhot]

hah, honestly, I agree that it suddenly takes effort to resize your photo, look, to resize a photo using a touchpad will require about 1 or 2 inch of movement, a 15" screen will require you to move about 12" just to resize the photo and you will still wont be happy with the size of the photo cause using the keypad is the best way to get an image to the size you want.

Beside, I wont want to keep touching my notebook screen just to use it, its stupid. and what happen if its the monitor is flimsy?

[Pascal007]

Always there to help MS, I've found the theme song for this, err, innovation :

Touch Me (http://www.youtube.com/v/u8LiaBtgvNk&hl=en)

:rolleyes:

;)

[Pascal007]

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

Immediate action = change mouse.

[ZTWatcher]

Thanks for having to upgrade your copy of expired Windows XP to Windows 7..

Please feel free to spend $1000 for a new desktop/laptop computer ... and if you wish to use Windows 7 Ultimate Touch Version, please spend an additional $700-$1000 for a touch screen ...

For business users it has CxO toy value in a powerpoint presentation...

For everyone else, those of us who move and resize photos for a living ! or finger paint it is worth upgrading for this little feature.

[wheelhot]

Almost forget to mention that it would be nice if your keyboard can become like another touch screen and you can have a fully customized keyboard, imagine if you can have all Photoshop palettes at the place of your keyboard, no need to remember keyboard shortcuts and more designing screen size estate.

The bad part about this idea is that touch surfaces dun have tactile feedback.

[ZTWatcher]

Always there to help MS, I've found the theme song for this, err, innovation :

Touch Me (http://www.youtube.com/v/u8LiaBtgvNk&hl=en)

:rolleyes:

;)
I was thinking "Rocky Horror" ... Toucha Toucha Toucha Me .... I wanna feel Dirty!

[OldMacGuy]

Maybe they can use it on the Zune. :lol:

[11thIndian]

I think if any "computer" came out as a touch screen it would be redesigned kinda in the triangular shape of a keyboard only extended with a slight swoop upwards and outwards of the "monitor" with some nice "curve" appeal" (c'mon Jonathon Ives), but both pretty much laying flat on your desk. The keyboard would not have physical keys but like the multi-touch keyboard of the iPhone and the screen would have to be flat on the table, otherwise who wants to be raising their arms all the time to use their fingers to gesture the icons and such. So we get rid of the keyboard and mouse and have an iMac like all in one unit but not standing vertically upright as an iMac screen looks now but as if you took the iMac and laid it flat on top of you desk. Of course instead of carpal tunnel syndrome in your wrists you'd always have a crick in your neck from constantly looking down. :grumble:

Anyone else out there have a design idea as to how to make a multi touch, touch screen computer/laptop? What would yours look like? :wow:

That's what I'm saying. People don't want to look down at their monitor, or have to raise their hands to their screen. The only thing that's changing in the this equation is the keyboard. Your keyboard [and possibly mouse] are unplugged and replaced with another keyboard- except this keyboard is a multi-touch surface. So it can be a keyboard when needed, or a tablet for photoshop for direct drawing, or a customized interface for video editing or audio mixing. This isn't complicated.

As for laptops, see the picture of the EO-2 pictured earlier in the thread. That's the basic idea.

[wilco]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

:rolleyes:

[mjtomlin]

Let multi-touch supplement the mouse the same way the mouse supplements the keyboard. Get a desktop implementation that's as well thought out as the iPhone UI before you decide it's useless in a desktop environment.

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment. Originally the keyboard's only purpose was to be used for text input. Keyboard key combinations were later added to help certain users make the transition from a text based interface to a graphical interface.

[801]

How many SW engineers does MS have? How much do they pay them? Do they grind the creativity out of them? Don't any of them sit there and say, "what am I doing here?", my bosses are wrecking my stock holdings with this lame crap.

For all this money they should be erupting in original ideas. You can tell the type of management that MS has if this is the best they can come up with. And it must be layered something awful, with lots of long detailed design review meetings that they substitute for actual work. I gotta get a book on MS and see how they do it.

I own a small chain of comic book stores. I hire people with creative drive who have crappy degrees, or none at all. I think MS would do themselves some good if they gave up the cream of the crop SW engineer (and I do have a few myself) hiring practice and concentrated on some out of the box thinkers who can't write a lick of code and would burn some bridges over there. We get the creative guys to figure out change things and get the IT department to figure it out.

Ugh.

[iPoster]

When MS starts hyping a feature you know it's become passe.

The race to make a fully multi-touch desktop is absolutely absurd. Geez thanks
you've turned my computer into a Kiosk. I'm impressed.

Tell me why I would rather reach up and take two fingers and pinch or extend them to resize a picture when a mouse click in the area and a scroll of the mouse wheel could do the same thing with less effort?

Multi touch desktops are an anathema to ergonomic computing if you're talking about computing on a vertical surface. It's just a horrible idea.

Multi touch is fine on a small portable device where you want to eschew a keyboard and mouse but makes absolutely NO sense on a desktop.

"Have IQs suddenly dropped while I was away?"

Lt Ripley

Pretty much what I was going to post. Unless you work with images or graphics, it's a niche product area.

[Mazda 3s]

Anyone who would use anything Microsoft makes unless they absolutely, positively had to must be nuts, or, retired with too much time on their hands.

I'm a long-time lurker, and recent poster to AppleInsider. But it's comments like these that make me angry and upset. Why must people be so elitist and pig-headed with regards to a choice in operating systems? Who cares if someone wants to use Windows? Is it REALLY that much of a hindrance to you?

Jesus, you'd think that Microsoft killed your first born or something. I don't seem to see many PC-centric sites/forum users bashing Apple or its operating system (at least not like back in the good 'old days :lol: ), but I see that Windows hate is alive and well here... just for the sake of being mean-spirited.

I personally use Windows Vista on my desktop, Windows XP on my Eee PC notebook, and I have an iPod touch which has become a tool that I can't live without. But all three systems perform how I expect them to, and all get the job done wonderfully.

After purchasing my iPod touch, I have the inclination to purchase a Mac system, but the prices for a new system are a bit beyond what I want to pay right now.

That being said, why can't we all get along? Why does everything that mentions Microsoft have to turn into a bitchfest with flames thrown left and right? Grow up, please.

[digitalclips]

hahaha very funny
i love how the lady kept on referring to the iphone, made me feel good knowing i own several apple products

I imagine the gut wrenching internal feelings of the MS team each and every time too , I bet they could hear the TV ad in their heads, "PC is number two! PC is number two" :lol:

[digitalclips]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

mmmm ... let me think ... I have iPhone now, I have MacBook with gestures now ... I have seen 1000 pound demo with projectors from MS and I have used Vista ...

Gosh, this is hard ...

[DavidW]

You can bet that when Gates and Balmer were touting the future potential of Multi-Touch technology, that they weren't staring into a crystal ball. They were staring at an iPhone. :lol:

Don't think about using MT on a desktop computer screen. But rather on a big trackpad to replace a mouse. Much like a MT pad on a laptop. Only this pad would change it features based on the program you're running. You would also get two curser to appear on your screen if you place a thumb and finger lightly on the pad so you can gage your location for a pinch motion

It would behave like a regular trackpad with some programs. But in Photoshop you would be able to paint, draw, erase, trace by using your finger. In iMovie, you would be able to drag and drop clips to your timeline by using your finger. You would be able change the time of a photo by using a pinching motion on the photo. With a home remodelling program you would be able to not only move furnitures around in a virtual room with your finger but rotate them as well. Designing photo layouts would be a breeze if you can size, locate and rotate your images with your finger. You would be able to add signatures to documents with the aid of a stylus. With games you can place a thin overlay over it with outlines of buttons and scroll area and then customize the buttons for the game. Two of them put together (along with an overlay) gets you a piano keyboard for Garage Band. When playing songs or movies from iTunes it would mimic the click wheel of an iPod. Much more intuitive and useful than using a graphic tablet and stylus. Think of it as a MacPro trackpad on steroids.

[digitalclips]

I'm a long-time lurker, and recent poster to AppleInsider. But it's comments like these that make me angry and upset. Why must people be so elitist and pig-headed with regards to a choice in operating systems? Who cares if someone wants to use Windows? Is it REALLY that much of a hindrance to you?

Jesus, you'd think that Microsoft killed your first born or something. I don't seem to see many PC-centric sites/forum users bashing Apple or its operating system (at least not like back in the good 'old days :lol: ), but I see that Windows hate is alive and well here... just for the sake of being mean-spirited.

I personally use Windows Vista on my desktop, Windows XP on my Eee PC notebook, and I have an iPod touch which has become a tool that I can't live without. But all three systems perform how I expect them to, and all get the job done wonderfully.

After purchasing my iPod touch, I have the inclination to purchase a Mac system, but the prices for a new system are a bit beyond what I want to pay right now.

That being said, why can't we all get along? Why does everything that mentions Microsoft have to turn into a bitchfest with flames thrown left and right? Grow up, please.

Oh come on lighten up :) While some of us were around when MS stole Mac OS ... many of us use both and say these things with a good amount of feelings based on actual usage of both. So we are in both camps and feel qualified to trash MS :)

I am glad you feel Vista performs well. My experience daily on an 8 Core Xeon is pretty horrible. Excuse me, Vista is asking to allow me to run a bunch of updates and reboot, oh and telling me it isn't safe as it has no firewall (Kaspersky has though) and it wants to turn auto update on (I don't) and ... oh well I will leave it be and work on my Mac for now.

[Dunks]

I thought that demonstration was cringeworthy and underwhelming. Microsoft love to keep showing that messy screen with all the photos at odd angles. Computers are supposed to keep things ordered, uncluttered and accessible.

What is with the shitty interfaces? Wow, it's a piano on my screen! Un-freaking-believable Microsoft. You're saying I can manually rotate a globe for a whole minute just to locate the nearest starbucks. I'm so inspired to stab myself in the head.

Apple have shown beautiful restraint with the roll out of multi-touch support. They iPhone's keyboard could have absolutely killed the device had the error correction not been so elegant. Two finger scrolling and zooming mapped to the Macbook Air trackpad are no-nonsense and useful additions to the interface.

[Mazda 3s]

Oh come on lighten up :) While some of us were around when MS stole Mac OS ... many of us use both and say these things with a good amount of feelings based on actual usage of both. So we are in both camps and feel qualified to trash MS :)

I am glad you feel Vista performs well. My experience daily on an 8 Core Xeon is pretty horrible. Excuse me, Vista is asking to allow me to run a bunch of updates and reboot, oh and telling me it isn't safe as it has no firewall (Kaspersky has though) and it wants to turn auto update on (I don't) and ... oh well I will leave it be and work on my Mac for now.

I use my Vista machine for Photoshop, email (Thunderbird), word/spreadsheet processing (Office 2007), Internet (Firefox 3), and various other small apps. It doesn't take much to run those applications, and Vista does the job -- and my whole HP desktop machine cost roughly $350 new.

As for asking about a bunch of updates? MS releases the bulk of its updates on the second Tuesday of every month, and only rarely do they require a reboot (for Vista). So again, what's the big deal?

My only annoyance with Vista is UAC which I turned off on day one :devil:

I just don't understand the constant hate of Mac users towards Windows. If it's not for you, fine. But the constant bitching gets a bit old... that's all I'm saying :smokey:

[archer75]

:lol: hahah

Ahhh.... just another example of how Microsoft copies Apple...

"
Mhh.... Hey Bill! Start your iPhotocopier! Look! Apple just released this thing called an iPhone with 'multi-touch features'
oh my gooosh! GROOOOVY! They also released a a MacBook Air and Pro with these features of multi touching!
-- that's amazing! I'll go get my iPhotocopier...
"

:rolleyes:

Actually microsoft has been working on these touch features LONG before apple had come out with the iphone. While surface may have been officially demoed this year it has been shown off before. Years ago.

Apple copies too.

[anantksundaram]

Begun the Touch Wars have between Microsoft and Apple. Survive only one will.

A Yoda in our midst!
:err:

[anantksundaram]

A Yoda in our midst!
:err:

Oops.... I see that wilco beat me to it.

[rnaoncfixd]

Seems like a solid alternate to buying one of those 2 grand wacom tablet. Other than that it, would take some convincing to purchase.


This (http://www.amazon.com/Bamboo-Small-Pen-Tablet-Only/dp/B000V9T2JA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1212071469&sr=8-1) one isn't so much. I use it quite often and is very durable. With programmable buttons it works wonders with Adobe products. It was my work around when Apple removed the number pad on the keyboard of their Macbook Pros.

My thought is that I know quite a few people need that tactile feeling and haptic feedback (citing the rumor that the new iPhone will have vibration feedback) that a touch screen lacks. The keyboard will never phase out in my opinion because people like pressing on things and hearing that clickity clack of a keyboard. Also, when you're reshaping pictures or adjusting things, you won't be able to see what you're doing because... well... your hands are in the way.

They should leave the multi-touch designs to devices that do not have a readily available mouse. The iPhone, Mb Air, and Mb Pro are all perfect executions of this technology.

As for Windows 7 it seems to be bogged down with an exceptional amount of lag. At one point it didn't even register on paint to which she attempts to cover up as quick as she can. Granted it's still in its development stage, but a company should never demo anything that flawed. Not to be an Apple brat, but every time I see a new apple product be demoed it runs smoothly and the faults usually come from the person presenting more so than the device.

This is quite a big blow for Microsoft as people will most likely call it a giant iPhone.

[rnaoncfixd]

I forgot to mention that people who eat while they work on their computers and gamers who don't exactly consume the cleanest of foods would most likely destroy their touch screens within a month.
Greasy fingers will make for illegible screens.

[solipsism]

I was impressed immediately when the demo started off with Paint.exe. :rolleyes:

[solipsism]

Apple copies too.

Apple they do, but if you're going to buy/borrow/steal someone's else's idea you should be make a demo that is more impressive than the previous one's done.

Jeff Han's multi-touch demo was very impressive to watch, but wasn't focused on specific usage.

Apple's mult-touch demo was veru impressive to watch, as it did focus on specific usage and complete app packages.

This MS demo should have been have something that Apple hasn't yet done and shouldn't have been a less complete demo than what Han did in early 2006.• http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/65

There is a reason Apple usually only showcases software after it's nearly complete. MS is trying to generate positive press again with another lackluster idea and implementation.

[G-News]

In related news, Windows 7 is not going to feature the new MinWin Kernel and will instead resort back to an "improved" (whatever that means by MS standards) version of the Windows Server 2008 Kernel, which is an "improved" version of the Vista Kernel.

So Vista has dumped the new file system, 7 dumps the new Kernel, what are they going to dump next, the last bit of usability?

[alandail]

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment. Originally the keyboard's only purpose was to be used for text input. Keyboard key combinations were later added to help certain users make the transition from a text based interface to a graphical interface.

On day one Macintosh had keyboard shortcuts with the apple key. Before macintosh the only want to work programs was to memorize all of the key combinations. When Macintosh came out, the critics complained that the mouse was a waste of time, that they were perfectly fine using keyboard combinations in their programs, nevermind that each program had a different set of commands to learn.

Today the mouse has supplemented the keyboard. There are some things you can do with either, there are other things that wouldn't be possible without a mouse. I see multi-touch displays working much the same way. There will be some things you can do with either mouse or touch, there will be other new things that you will be able to do with touch that you couldn't really do with a mouse or keyboard.

[solipsism]

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment.

Supplement: something that completes or enhances something else when added to it.
I'd say that definition fits well.

[NasserAE]

WOW.. MS is using 2007 mobile phone technology as a marketing tool for a 2010 operating system!!!!

Like always,

Windows 7 Basic = $259
Windows 7 Touch Home = $379
Windows 7 Touch Business = $399
Windows 7 Touch Pro = $499

:rolleyes:

[SpamSandwich]

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

That's right folks, human hands are dirty and depositing oil and small flakes of skin all over your computer surface... multi-touch screens on desktop computers is a moronic idea. Multi-touch keyboards, OTOH could be useful.

[bloggerblog]

I have a Mighty Mouse! It has a Scroll Ball! Which is always stuck with gunk. Effective result = no scroll wheel.

Solution:
1- Unplug your mouse.
2- Spray a liquid cleaner, such as Windex, on your mouse-ball.
3- Press-down firmly on the mouse-ball while vigorously scrolling up/down, left/right until the gunk is released and the ball starts to move the sensor (you should feel and hear a very light continuous clicking sound in all directions).
4- Dry the mouse-ball with a lint-free cloth.
5- Repeat from Step 2, one more time.

It works for me every-time.

[hypoluxa]

I thought Apple had patented the "touch" tech for the iPhone etc? How is it MS is doing the same thing now?

[solipsism]

I thought Apple had patented the "touch" tech for the iPhone etc? How is it MS is doing the same thing now?

They do have patents, but so do others. If I recall correctly, Apple licensed or bought Han's IP for the iPhone, which means they specifically used his method of multi-touch technology, I think.• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#History

I really don't know, hopefully someone will school us.

[AppleWizard]

... And surprisingly enough Windows Mobile 7 will have a similar name and multitouch features. Well I bet Windows 7 Mobile will probably be using the Windows 7 OS.

Overall the only thing half decent MSFT has made in the last 5 years was the Xbox 360. Everything else was just a lame copy of something else that was somehow flawed, and even the 360 had hardware issues.

Soon the Mac OS will be the number 1 OS and Microsoft knows it.

[solipsism]

Overall the only thing half decent MSFT has made in the last 5 years was the Xbox 360. Everything else was just a lame copy of something else that was somehow flawed, and even the 360 had hardware issues.
...and even that has cost them billions.

Soon the Mac OS will be the number 1 OS and Microsoft knows it.

I wouldn't hold your breath. I don't foresee anything that has happened yet to indicate that OS X will outsell Windows anytime soon... or later.

[Slewis]

Null.

[Solar]

Official support maybe, but the machines have had the ability long before that. See: iScroll2 (http://iscroll2.sourceforge.net/), works perfectly

I'm gonna try that with my old footlong, it's the only thing that drives me nuts when I use my old powerbook. I really had no idea how much I relied on the two finger scroll ..

[Solar]

They do have patents, but so do others. If I recall correctly, Apple licensed or bought Han's IP for the iPhone, which means they specifically used his method of multi-touch technology, I think.• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#History

I really don't know, hopefully someone will school us.

apple acquired fingerworks sometime around Feb 2005.

[solipsism]

apple acquired fingerworks sometime around Feb 2005.

Thanks, that is what I was remembering. Wiki has a purchase date of Jan 22nd, 2007.

[JeffDM]

The mouse didn't supplement the keyboard. The mouse is an absolute necessity in a graphical environment. Originally the keyboard's only purpose was to be used for text input. Keyboard key combinations were later added to help certain users make the transition from a text based interface to a graphical interface.

Other than for drawing programs, object maniputation and the like, the OS X GUI can be almost used 100% without a mouse or tablet. Many times, the keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to do things. Just taking your hand off the keyboard between text entry and control and back can rob productivity, especially if it's an action in a submenu somewhere vs just hitting two keys.

Ever notice when they demo multi-touch on big screens, it's always doing something stupid? They're just fooling around, not really being practical and productive. I agree that on a vertical surface it's just plain dumb, except for kiosks. It belongs on portables and keyboards, NOT monitors. Typical MS. They just don't get it.:no:

Using a computer for work isn't sexy, and to market an idea, it often needs to be sexy. I'm certain that a good case for multitouch can made for use in professional circumstances. How about managing objects on a timeline? or emulating a sound board control surface? A mouse can only be used to manage one object at a time, a simulated sound board might let someone control four to ten sliders at the same time. Smoothly operating a bunch of virtual sliders and virtual buttons on a screen using a mouse just isn't as quick.

Maybe there isn't sufficient need for widespread uptake of multitouch screens, but I do see plenty of untapped potential that the detractors seem to miss.

[JeffDM]

Someone today with a rotator cuff injury could still compute. They certainly couldn't multi touch on a vertical screen without severe pain.


Assuming it's done on a vertical surface. I think ergonomics is best with a slanted surface anyway, even without multitouch.

[vinea]

They do have patents, but so do others. If I recall correctly, Apple licensed or bought Han's IP for the iPhone, which means they specifically used his method of multi-touch technology, I think.• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#History

I really don't know, hopefully someone will school us.

No, Han used FITR which requires rear projection and cameras behind the screen much like Surface. Only he hides it in a wall.

[JeffDM]

I forgot to mention that people who eat while they work on their computers and gamers who don't exactly consume the cleanest of foods would most likely destroy their touch screens within a month.
Greasy fingers will make for illegible screens.

People said stuff that about the iPhone too, though this is the first I've read of anyone claiming touchscreens would be destroyed by touching them. Have any iPhone owners here had a problem with greasy screens?

[MiMiC]

I just wonder aloud "at what cost to consumers?"

Multi touch screens rank pretty low on my desirability scale but screens with a larger gamut of colors and higher PPI rank high.

Applications that are responsive under all situations rank highly with me. Applications that rotate and shuffle pictures around with my finger input do not.

This is attempting to recreate the wheel. I'm sure it'll complement current input methods but if multi touch is a game changer i'll gladly eat my words 5 years from now.

I agree! I rather have spot on speech then touch. To be doing something else while commanding my Mac would be great!! Touch is cool as you won't have to grab your mouse, point, then click. You will be able to just reach up and click, drag, drop, whatever. It should be a more fluid motion.

The XO-2, scheduled for 2010 is the best concept yet. Dual multi-touch displays that can be used as a keyboard too. You can open it like a book as well as an e book reader. Nice.

I think this is the direction Apple will head. Nov 2009 MacBook Pro with dual multi-touch displays and Mac OS X 10.6??

Apple will no longer need to produce a different computer with a different keyboard for each country too!

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/7659-olpcxo2.jpg

Very cool! I like this quite a bit!!

Dual screens eat twice the battery life. That is reason alone to forget about that idea. No, I think the tablet is where it's at. If done right it could take away some of the notebook market which will stay around for years to come.

I hate to keep on reming people, but Mac touch FTW!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2381453879_5e11b0097e_o.png

Not so much. I like the idea (above) as you can close it, rather than having to stuff it into a sleeve. Granted my iPhone does not scratch, but a tablet would be far me susceptible to injury.

[solipsism]

People said stuff that about the iPhone too, though this is the first I've read of anyone claiming touchscreens would be destroyed by touching them. Have any iPhone owners here had a problem with greasy screens?

Perhaps he meant they'd get dirty, though that can easily be rectified with quick cleaning.

As for the idea for consumers, it looks like another failed attempt at gauging the industry by MS. Apple has already incorporated multi-touch on most of their MBA and MBPs. But not some awkward screen touching, but the more natural progression of the touchpad.

[vinea]

Multi touch desktops are an anathema to ergonomic computing if you're talking about computing on a vertical surface. It's just a horrible idea.
...
Multi touch is fine on a small portable device where you want to eschew a keyboard and mouse but makes absolutey NO sense on a deskop.


Couple this:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/ciw/images/image008_low.jpg

With this:

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/ciw/images/image007_low.jpg

and you end up with something close to this:

http://www.asktog.com/images/strfr.jpg

The StarFire (http://www.asktog.com/starfire/) concept developed at Sun by Tog (of Apple fame) who has forgotten more ergonomics than you ever knew. Multitouch for the desktop has been a holy grail HCI concept for thirty years with continous refinement.

Microsoft Research and MS Center for Information Work (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/asf/CIW%202min%20Tour.wax) is actually very cool. MSR has a lot of Xerox Parc alumni including Bill Buxton...a multitouch (http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html)/HCI researcher of some fame.

"Multi-touch technologies have a long history. To put it in perspective, the original work undertaken by my team was done in 1984, the same year that the first Macintosh computer was released, and we were not the first. Furthermore, there was a significant body of prior art on which multi-touch was built."

- Bill Buxton

What's truly amazing is some work in the 50s and 60s of HCI, collaboration and computer concepts we still use today or remain to be exploited. I used to have some video clips of these amazing demos from Engelbart, Sutherland and others. It was part of an Alan Kay lecture on the history of computing I think.

[vinea]

Ah...found it here (http://www.archive.org/details/AlanKeyD1987)

Look at the 15 min mark: iChat in 1968...

[tundraboy]

I fail to see how having a virtual jumble of your digital photographs on your monitor can enhance your ability to manage your photos in an orderly, efficient manner. I always though apps like Picasa, iPhoto, Aperture etc. were developed because dumping your prints on the table to search for a particular picture was so painfully inefficient. Now we are supposed to be impressed that instead of physically rummaging through the junk on your desk, we can now do it on our monitors? So the chaos that reigned on your desk can now be transfered to your PC? This is progress?

The greatly overlooked benefit of computers is that it forced people to think about problems clearly, systematically and analytically. Before you write a program to address a problem, you need to thoroughly understand the problem so as to be able to formulate it in a way that the computer can handle. i.e. computers have forced us to work smarter.

Nowadays it seems that we want programs and computers that can solve our problems without requiring us to understand the problem first. This quest for the computer-for-the-intellectually-lazy will lead to a dead end. No matter how hard anyone tries, you cannot build a computer that can overcome the definciencies of mental sloths.

[SpamSandwich]

I fail to see how having a virtual jumble of your digital photographs on your monitor can enhance your ability to manage your photos in an orderly, efficient manner. I always though apps like Picasa, iPhoto, Aperture etc. were developed because dumping your prints on the table to search for a particular picture was so painfully inefficient. Now we are supposed to be impressed that instead of physically rummaging through the junk on your desk, we can now do it on our monitors? So the chaos that reigned on your desk can now be transfered to your PC? This is progress?

It's called progress at Microsoft. :smokey:

[Project2501]

People said stuff that about the iPhone too, though this is the first I've read of anyone claiming touchscreens would be destroyed by touching them. Have any iPhone owners here had a problem with greasy screens? I don't know what he means exactly, but most of the big screens today have some sort of antiglare coating, that is very easily destroyed. wether smaller screens like iPhone's need antiglare coating, I don't know? Anyways touch screens propably don't have such, just saying.

[johnqh]

Two overrated technologies for desktop computing.

1. Speech. I can mouse around all day, but I will be exhausted after talking to the computer for 1 hour. If you have kids, you know what I mean.
2. Multi-touch. Why would I use two fingures (or even two hands) to do something I can use one fingure (with mouse) for? The best invention which made the original mouse better is the scrolling wheel. It is constant, and easy, and requires little movement.

To make multi-touch work,

1. The surface has to be solid. That excludes most laptops. However, it works for iPhone and Surface computer.
2. The computer uses completely new UI. iPhone and Surface do that. If you add this feature to an existing UI (like Windows or Mac OS), the users will only get confused. How do you know which app supports it?

I hope Microsoft spend billions of dollars and seven years on multi-touch. It will go nowhere and quite possibly be the big oppotunity for Apple.

OK, enough complains about what doesn't work. Now let's think of some workable possibilities.

Why use a surface? Use built-in iSight, detect hand gestures, and operate from that. Flip to the next page with a wave of hand. Gives a thumb-up for "OK", thumb-down for cancel. That's probably more useful than multi-touch.

[hmurchison]

Two overrated technologies for desktop computing.

1. Speech. I can mouse around all day, but I will be exhausted after talking to the computer for 1 hour. If you have kids, you know what I mean.
2. Multi-touch. Why would I use two fingures (or even two hands) to do something I can use one fingure (with mouse) for? The best invention which made the original mouse better is the scrolling wheel. It is constant, and easy, and requires little movement.



My emphasis added. I disagree. I think the average males says something like 10 thousand words a day. I doubt most people type that many words in a day so I'm of the belief that speech is the most natural of all communication types. The one thing you can do with something like Dragon NaturallySpeaking is assign macros to vocal commands. So rather than click the signature button in Word you simply say something like "my signature" and voila the button's pressed for you. VBA scripting allows you do even more and DNS never misspells a word. It'll misrecognize words but everything that it spits on the page is a honest to God word.

I couldn't call it overrated because I saw people who were paralyzed from the chest down compute. I saw legally blind people read and send emails and surf the internet. Speech technology in conjunction with other Assistive Tech like screen readers is anything but overrated..it's a lifesaver for people who can articulate naturally.

Multi Touch certainly has an acceptable role in portable devices but the Holy Grail should be doing "less" with your hands to combat RSI...not more.

[johnqh]

My emphasis added. I disagree. I think the average males says something like 10 thousand words a day. I doubt most people type that many words in a day so I'm of the belief that speech is the most natural of all communication types. The one thing you can do with something like Dragon NaturallySpeaking is assign macros to vocal commands. So rather than click the signature button in Word you simply say something like "my signature" and voila the button's pressed for you. VBA scripting allows you do even more and DNS never misspells a word. It'll misrecognize words but everything that it spits on the page is a honest to God word.

I couldn't call it overrated because I saw people who were paralyzed from the chest down compute. I saw legally blind people read and send emails and surf the internet. Speech technology in conjunction with other Assistive Tech like screen readers is anything but overrated..it's a lifesaver for people who can articulate naturally.

Multi Touch certainly has an acceptable role in portable devices but the Holy Grail should be doing "less" with your hands to combat RSI...not more.

I bet you don't have a kid.

People don't talk too much think they can talk all day, but when you have to constantly talk, you will find that your throat gets dry in 30 minutes, and in 1 hour, you want some quiet time.

Speech recognition and commands were available 15 years ago in System 7. It is hardly new technology. It had so much advances since then. Yet, who uses it? Other than some special cases (people who don't have the ability to use mouse or keyboard), hardly anyone.

[talksense101]

After Windows Vista, I have lost all faith in Microsoft's ability to develop software that isn't bloatware. OS X Leopard still runs well on my 1.25GHz G4. I shudder to think about the system requirements and responsiveness of Windows 7.

[alandail]

1. The surface has to be solid. That excludes most laptops. However, it works for iPhone and Surface computer.



Why do you assume that Apple would build a computer for touch without addressing this in the design? Steve isn't known for missing major details like this.


2. The computer uses completely new UI. iPhone and Surface do that. If you add this feature to an existing UI (like Windows or Mac OS), the users will only get confused. How do you know which app supports it?


I highly doubt Apple misses this detail either. There are hundreds of thousands of developers programming for cocoa touch. Do you think that will only ever run on a 3 1/2 inch screen?

[vinea]

Two overrated technologies for desktop computing.

1. Speech. I can mouse around all day, but I will be exhausted after talking to the computer for 1 hour. If you have kids, you know what I mean.


My office mate uses dragon. It's much better than 20 years ago but it's technology that has been perpetually 5 years in the future. Still though, it's hardly overrated. Just a combination of misused and not quite ready yet.


2. Multi-touch. Why would I use two fingures (or even two hands) to do something I can use one fingure (with mouse) for? The best invention which made the original mouse better is the scrolling wheel. It is constant, and easy, and requires little movement.


Because direct manipulation has consistently proven to be better once it is refined enough to work reliably. For many tasks, multitouch and stylus on the desk surface (that is also a display) is superior to indirect manipulation via mouse and keyboard.


To make multi-touch work,

1. The surface has to be solid. That excludes most laptops. However, it works for iPhone and Surface computer.


Somewhat solid. You can do finger tracking for some gesture interfaces. For laptops, any multitouch UI will depend on the ability to be a convertible tablet to provide a horizontal surface to interact with.


2. The computer uses completely new UI. iPhone and Surface do that. If you add this feature to an existing UI (like Windows or Mac OS), the users will only get confused. How do you know which app supports it?


This is a given. UIs must be designed differently for multitouch. MS is not incapable of doing this.


OK, enough complains about what doesn't work. Now let's think of some workable possibilities.

Why use a surface? Use built-in iSight, detect hand gestures, and operate from that. Flip to the next page with a wave of hand. Gives a thumb-up for "OK", thumb-down for cancel. That's probably more useful than multi-touch.

Multitouch is simply one way of adding additional gestures to the computing environment. The biggest improvement comes when you take something indirectly manipulated and make it more directly manipulated and intuitutive.

Why? Because people directly manipulate physical objects all the time. We're used to it and have quite a bit of capability to do it well.

This isn't to say we're going to lose the mouse and keyboard but multitouch can provide another, more intuitive, interaction pattern for computing.

Of course, folks like you won't even bother to click the links to something like Starfire that shows how well something like multitouch can work in a desktop environment.

[hmurchison]

I bet you don't have a kid.

People don't talk too much think they can talk all day, but when you have to constantly talk, you will find that your throat gets dry in 30 minutes, and in 1 hour, you want some quiet time.

Speech recognition and commands were available 15 years ago in System 7. It is hardly new technology. It had so much advances since then. Yet, who uses it? Other than some special cases (people who don't have the ability to use mouse or keyboard), hardly anyone.

Yes but we're "skating to the puck here" I'm not concerned about who's using it today I'm looking at future potential for input modalities and voice recognition is more probable as a game changer than multi touch. DNS is expensive at $800 but when this technology can be added for say $0-100 or included with your smartphone you have the ability to reach critical mass for this technology quickly. VR accuracy on a phone will be no worse than non English like

"hey dood IDK what ur # is plz snd it"

Both can

[johnqh]

Yes but we're "skating to the puck here" I'm not concerned about who's using it today I'm looking at future potential for input modalities and voice recognition is more probable as a game changer than multi touch. DNS is expensive at $800 but when this technology can be added for say $0-100 or included with your smartphone you have the ability to reach critical mass for this technology quickly. VR accuracy on a phone will be no worse than non English like

"hey dood IDK what ur # is plz snd it"

Both can

Dude, Speech recognition was FREE in System 7. It is an optional install for Windows right now.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/expert/moskowitz_02september23.mspx

The cost of the technology is ZERO. It does not cost $800. It does not cost $100. It costed $0.

You have to know a little bit history (or at least the present) here. I was a Mac developer since 1992.

[hmurchison]

Dude, Speech recognition was FREE in System 7. It is an optional install for Windows right now.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/expert/moskowitz_02september23.mspx

The cost of the technology is ZERO. It does not cost $800. It does not cost $100. It costed $0.

You have to know a little bit history (or at least the present) here. I was a Mac developer since 1992.

I'm aware of this but the speech recognition you mention is not equivalent to today's Dragon NaturallySpeaking Professional which "is" $800 and currently the best Speech to Text you can purchase.

Microsoft has native speech to text in Vista that does NOT work well but give it a few generations and they may have something. Apple doesn't even seem to be on the playground in this area (not just VR but speech to text)

[beastvince]

Hmm I have an iPhone and I do have keep cleaning the screen if I want to see pictures clearly. My iMac at work doesn't like people touching the screen either, smudges all the time, quite a nuisance actually. (Never understood why people have to touch a screen to SHOW me something)
Whereas the multi-touch mouse-pad on the Mac Laptops is pretty cool to work with.
;)

[ISOFT]

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[vinea]

Many times, the keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to do things. Just taking your hand off the keyboard between text entry and control and back can rob productivity, especially if it's an action in a submenu somewhere vs just hitting two keys.


This is incorrect. To quote Tog:

"

Test subjects report that keyboarding is faster than mousing.
The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.


This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster.

People new to the mouse find the process of acquiring it every time they want to do anything other than type to be incredibly time-wasting. And therein lies the very advantage of the mouse: it is boring to find it because the two-second search does not require high-level cognitive engagement.

It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function. Not only is this decision not boring, the user actually experiences amnesia! Real amnesia! The time-slice spent making the decision simply ceases to exist."

http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

Caveats:


Shortcuts that are committed to muscle memory are faster since the cognitive load is lower. This is stuff like ctrl-x, c, v for cut, copy and paste and any application specific shortcut you use so often it's "second nature".

This may no longer be true if you're using a dual monitor setup and the menu is on the wrong one.


So it's not "many times" but in reality "a few times". Also, the reason that Apple went with a one button mouse is the assumption that the other hand is still on the keyboard and able to provide the required context information (cmd, ctrl, short) for what the button click means.

In practice the keys are IMHO too far from the home position to be useful in two-handed input UI design a la Engelbart and users, even seasoned Mac users, don't appear to make those keys the new "home" position when mousing.

That statement is not backed up by empirical data...hence the IMHO. Just casual observation.

Anything not measured in an experimental environment is hugely subject to human perception errors.

[JeffDM]

This is incorrect. To quote Tog:

"

Test subjects report that keyboarding is faster than mousing.
The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.


This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster.

People new to the mouse find the process of acquiring it every time they want to do anything other than type to be incredibly time-wasting. And therein lies the very advantage of the mouse: it is boring to find it because the two-second search does not require high-level cognitive engagement.

So maybe using the mouse makes me so bored out of my skull that using the high level cognitive engagement is what prevents me from going postal.


Caveats:


Shortcuts that are committed to muscle memory are faster since the cognitive load is lower. This is stuff like ctrl-x, c, v for cut, copy and paste and any application specific shortcut you use so often it's "second nature".

This may no longer be true if you're using a dual monitor setup and the menu is on the wrong one.



I'm satisfied with that, that's pretty much what I meant. I wonder if the size / resolution of the screen would also have an impact, it sounds like they might have been doing their testing with the original Mac. Not only that, computer applications are a lot more complex these days. Maybe those two would cancel each other out, I don't know. Cmd-i seems to have the biggest edge vs. "get info", for some reason, I get confused trying to find it in the menu, it's not in a consistent place even if many different kinds of app use it.

[alandail]

So maybe using the mouse makes me so bored out of my skull that using the high level cognitive engagement is what prevents me from going postal.

The problem is that high level cognitive engagement interrupts the high level thinking you are applying to the presumably higher level task you are using the computer for in the first place.

[JeffDM]

The problem is that high level cognitive engagement interrupts the high level thinking you are applying to the presumably higher level task you are using the computer for in the first place.

I would think that saying I'm getting bored using the computer would imply that I'm not doing such a high level task.

But I think the quote by vinea showed that someone that uses a particular command a lot is going to benefit from hot keys. Occasional use, occasional enough that you don't remember the combination without thinking, is going to cause problems.