iPhone 3G sales hampered by Windows Mobile

[AppleInsider]

Sources within Apple's retail stores report that sales of the iPhone 3G are being slowed down by handhelds running Microsoft Windows Mobile/WinCE. That's because the stores have been selling new iPhones to customers using the old EasyPay, a problematic Pocket PC handheld computer that's causing employees lots of grief.

Apple began using the EasyPay devices in its retail stores in 2005. Ever since, management has been pushing to expand the use of the handheld systems, in part to deliver more personal service in stores commonly designed without a prominent check out area, as well as to provide flexibility in handling transactions for customers without requiring them to stand in checkout lines.

An initial report by Peter Burrows in BusinessWeek detailed Apple's optimism for the devices back in 2005, explaining, "Steve Jobs believes that many people who are comfortable buying on-line -- and that's a rapidly growing percentage of the total -- will not only accept but will actually prefer getting their receipts electronically. Also, the wireless, paperless checkout gives Apple an opportunity to improve in-store service, as well."

In July, just prior to the iPhone 3G launch, Apple again reaffirmed confidence in its strategy to handle the heavy demand expected for the new phone by using the handheld EasyPay devices almost exclusively to complete purchases and in-store activations. The irony is that problems with the EasyPay devices' clumsy software actually aggravated problems and resulted in slower moving lines.

The rollout of the iPhone 3G required US Apple Store employees to act as AT&T representatives in collecting data from customers and setting up their mobile activations right in the store. The EasyPay devices commonly turned a five minute process into at least a fifteen minute ordeal, according to sources familiar with the devices, severely reducing the number of customers each employee could help. That in turn resulted in extremely long lines that kept some iPhone 3G customers waiting for hours to get the new phone.

'Huge old ugly pieces of junk'

It's also ironic that Apple is relying upon handheld computers with a large Windows logo on the back to sell its iPhone, a handheld computer with an Apple logo on the back. Why isn't Apple using its own technology? For starters, the iPhone project was only just beginning to come together in late 2005, after the company's retail stores had already begun a successful pilot program using the Windows Mobile devices to ring up purchases. Apple's roughly 200 retail stores likely stock fewer than 6,000 of the devices even counting replacement units, making it a costly venture to custom design a hardware solution that would replace such a small batch of commodity handheld terminals.



The Apple Stores' EasyPay units are Symbol PPT8800 Pocket PCs manufactured by Motorola and cost around $800 to $1000, although Apple probably pays significantly less than retail price for the devices. The unit itself connects to an external credit card reader, both of which have issues. "They are huge old ugly pieces of junk," one user confessed. "I hate these things. In the middle of a transaction, I'll hit 'next' and end up dumped back at the login screen. It's so frustrating."

For security reasons, the devices are configured to log out after two minutes of sitting idle. However, when they just log out spontaneously it then takes "a good two minute process to login," one user lamented. Regular hardware failures and software reinstalls remove about three units from service per month, necessitating the need to keep a lot of extra units in stock. One insider said her retail store maintains roughly twice as many EasyPay systems as are needed in regular use.

'What is it doing?'

Preparing an Apple Store in the morning requires a lengthy starting up session for the dozen or so EasyPay systems a typical retail store puts into use daily. Just turning them all on takes around fifteen minutes, even if several are done together in batches. "You have to boot it up in the morning, an eight minute process for each EasyPay that requires clicking a series of 'OK' buttons as it boots up Windows Mobile and then the EasyPay application. If you don't click the buttons right, you end up at the WinCE desktop, with no way to manually start the EasyPay app," one former Apple retail store employee reported. "You have to start all over."

The units have an integrated barcode reader for identifying products without typing in their SKU, but "the barcode scanner takes five seconds to register," complained one frustrated Apple Store employee in the busy retail flagship in downtown San Francisco. Once the purchased items are all entered, clicking on "tender" to add tax "takes forever," another user familiar with the devices noted. "What is it doing? It's just calculating the tax."

In comparison, "Apple's own POS [point of sale] application on Mac OS X flies," according to a retail employee who has used both. Apple's retail stores typically have a small number of stationary MacBook Pros to complete sales for users, but managers encourage employees to seek out customers who are waiting to make a purchase and help them with the handheld EasyPay systems.

"I don't know why they don't create an iPhone application for handling transactions," one Apple store employee said. "The camera could act as a barcode reader, and Apple should be able to figure out how to build a USB interface for the credit card reader. It looks bad to be using these old clumsy things. Plus they're PCs, and we advertise the whole Mac PC switcher thing."[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=4524)

[btitusjr]

It is truly sad and disgusting to see these in the Apple stores. Or anywhere for that matter. There so ulgy:no:

[Dr. X]

Very good article. I wish Apple could develop its own application and hardware to take place of the EasyPay systems. I know Apple can do it or maybe they are already developing something.

[columbus]

I'm sure Apple will eventually replace them, but right now with so much work to do on iPhone that will benefit so many customers, I guess writing a custom bit of software for the retail stores isn't high on the list of priorities.

[SpamSandwich]

So a few Apple Store employees being unhappy about using a Windows product, yes? It's Apple's fault for not being more proactive and engineering a rock-solid solution based on OSX that would be a real first for retail. Instead, they play it safe by sticking with an "off the shelf" POS. Where's Steve's anger and bile now?

[Aries 1B]

:D

Or maybe this will light a fire to get the New Newton released?

V/R,
Aries 1B

[solipsism]

So a few Apple Store employees being unhappy about using a Windows product, yes? It's Apple's fault for not being more proactive and engineering a rock-solid solution based on OSX that would be a real first for retail. Instead, they play it safe by sticking with an "off the shelf" POS. Where's Steve's anger and bile now?

I concur. Apple should make their own software or adapt USB CC reader (as stated) for the iPod Touch. but I don't see this being a priority with only a few thousand needed. It sounds like it would be financially prohibitive.

Since Apple doesn't make a single PoS system I don't see much irony here or that it's a big deal. The system issues seem to be more a problem with Symbol's software, not with MS. Doesn't Apple use a non-Apple solution for their iTunes servers?

My experience with Apple employees using these Symbol devices over the last few years has been great. No issues at all.

[smokeytheperson]

The fact that they can't run the program after windows boots, shows that they are not running off windows. POS programs are unique, and don't typically run off another OS's GUI. ie IBM 4690 et al.

[JeffDM]

The fact that they can't run the program after windows boots, shows that they are not running off windows. POS programs are unique, and don't typically run off another OS's GUI. ie IBM 4690 et al.

But doesn't Symbol make that device? The screen I saw sure looked like it was running under a mobile Windows OS. It is sold as a Windows device, I don't understand why someone would develop an alternate OS for it rather than develop on the device's intended OS.

[JeffDM]

I concur. Apple should make their own software or adapt USB CC reader (as stated) for the iPod Touch. but I don't see this being a priority with only a few thousand needed. It sounds like it would be financially prohibitive.

Since Apple doesn't make a single PoS system I don't see much irony here or that it's a big deal. The system issues seem to be more a problem with Symbol's software, not with MS. Doesn't Apple use a non-Apple solution for their iTunes servers?

I don't know. Rumors are that the back end of each retail store is on a Windows server. I don't know if that's true, but if there aren't OS X programs to handle a niche need for that, then they need to use what's available or pay a lot to develop one for just a couple hundred stores, their developers are better used to work on paying products.

But if they partner with a company, to make a docking card reader, I don't see why it wouldn't be worth doing. That way, the reader and program can be marketed to other companies.


I personally hadn't seen any problems with the devices when I paid (or got a refund) through those devices.

[nvidia2008]

My experience with Apple employees using these Symbol devices over the last few years has been great. No issues at all.

Buying an iPhone 3G accessory in the UK Regent Street store, was pretty smooth and good for me. I could buy it on the spot, the guy was pleasant and efficient, and I don't have to carry around more stupid pieces of paper from who knows what poor trees. :smokey:

That said, I hope Apple continues to improve its wireless POS systems.

What perhaps many people don't realise is that the problem with iPhone 3G sales is not likely to be the wireless POS system. It is probably all the idiotic carrier activation, credit checks and contracts.

I've said it before, the problem is not that Apple has to use non-Apple stuff. It is that they have to rapidly roll out all sorts of procedures that are hampered by the poor quality, poor maintenance, and poor response of all the complicated mobile network systems just to get a signal.

I can name numerous examples, as many others can.

Carphone Warehouse in the UK - poor service, poor Apple knowledge, very limited stock. I have personally entered several transactions through their POS system, which is integrated with carrier activation and credit checks. Let's just say their POS really is a Piece Of Sh*t. More seriously, it is some sort of terminal that logs into some sort of remote mainframe-esque server. We're talking very old school here.

O2 in the UK - Apple Retail Stores in the UK had to install VMWare, just to use IE to access the O2 website. Again, personal observation shows that there were two separate systems, for example "O2 URU" or something like that and then O2 credit check, activations, etc.

Celcom in Malaysia - Hard to find stores, lack of stock such as prepaid SIMs, staff suggesting certain mobile broadband solutions with Mac drivers that were made pre-Leopard launch (and didn't work when I tried it with my MacBook).

I wonder how different AT&T could be compared to all the above.

That said I hope Maxis in Malaysia will carry the iPhone 3G. It is overall a better quality service providers, on an international scale.

[wobegon]

"I don't know why they don't create an iPhone application for handling transactions," one Apple store employee said. "The camera could act as a barcode reader, and Apple should be able to figure out how to build a USB interface for the credit card reader.

That employee brings up an interesting point. While it would be much less expensive to go with an iPod touch, it lacks a built-in camera, thus it wouldn't be able to scan barcodes (without some custom, external barcode scanner that interfaced with the iPod).

So, perhaps Apple's desire to rid its stores of these WinMobile-based devices will coincide with customers' likely desires for a camera on their iPod touch. :D If they did such a thing, I wonder if they'd use a better 3MP-5MP camera, instead of using the iPhone's fairly average 2MP camera. That might enrage the iPhone 2G and 3G users though. :\

[nvidia2008]

I don't know. Rumors are that the back end of each retail store is on a Windows server. I don't know if that's true, but if there aren't OS X programs to handle a niche need for that, then they need to use what's available or pay a lot to develop one for just a couple hundred stores, their developers are better used to work on paying products....

So a few Apple Store employees being unhappy about using a Windows product, yes? It's Apple's fault for not being more proactive and engineering a rock-solid solution based on OSX that would be a real first for retail. Instead, they play it safe by sticking with an "off the shelf" POS. Where's Steve's anger and bile now?

Like I said, the problem really isn't that they are using non-OS X, non-Apple devices. It's all the integration with archaic and ill-conceived mobile network systems.

Apple focuses on the overall Retail experience, which Apple still does better than many, many others.

While they should certainly explore and expand their own OS-X, Apple-driven retail systems, the main focus should now be all this mobile network integration. Wi-Fi is a piece of cake now. It's 2G, 3G, 4G, etc. going forward, then Apple knows is a key challenge. Beyond the iPhone 3G, through 2009-2010, portables and tablets and many other new, exciting devices and services will require stable, reliable, easy-to-activate ubiquitous carrier networks.

How hard is it to buy a Mac, go to your local cafe with free Wi-Fi, and get online? Not very. 10 minutes from Apple Store to Intarweb gratification.

A Windows Vista PC? perhaps 30 to 45 minutes.

Now the iPhone 3G? An *order of magnitude* more difficult compared to a Mac and Wi-Fi. Global average time for this process may be within 100 minutes. If you're lucky.

The iPhone 3G is definitely not "Apple's Vista", but the mobile activation process certainly feels like you're trying to set up networking on a Vista PC.

And I haven't even mentioned this carrier-locking nonsense.

When you buy a Mac or PC, does it mean you can only log on to Wi-Fi or DSL broadband that is provided only by AT&T, O2 or Vodafone? Does your Mac say, "Sorry, but you can't use free Internet here because this Mac is locked to AT&T..."? When you go overseas on a holiday, and your hotel or hostel provides free Wi-Fi, does your Mac say, "Sorry, but each MB is charged at $5 since you are not in the country where you bought your Mac..."?

Of course not. Why should an iPhone be so different? In this case it is even *more* crucial to be able to access the best and most appropriate network provider. I don't think I am being facetious here. Consider that whether it's Ethernet, Wi-Fi, 2G, 3G, 10G, whatever, an average user doesn't give a rat's ass about what is used.

As long as it is affordable, inexpensive, easy to use, reliable, fast, and easy to get started with. That is the future of "mobile Internet devices". Where would the Mac be today if DSL or cable broadband was 1/100th the quality of what it has been these past 5 years?

[nvidia2008]

Considering as well the MobileMe fiasco, Apple knows it is not enough to control the Hardware and Software. It needs to control the Network. As much as it can control the Hardware and Software.

Sun Microsystems got it almost right many years ago. The Network may not be The Computer, but it's certainly a huge chunk of the computing experience now.

Man, I am on a roll today...! 8-)

[ascii]

When the Apple execs were making these plans about how it all would work, I wonder if any of them actually held one of these units in their hand at any stage.

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Of course not. Why should an iPhone be so different? In this case it is even *more* crucial to be able to access the best and most appropriate network provider. I don't think I am being facetious here. Consider that whether it's Ethernet, Wi-Fi, 2G, 3G, 10G, whatever, an average user doesn't give a rat's ass about what is used.
Apple alone offers the OS X experience from the ground up. They have complete control over each level of the presentation. This is not the case with the iPhone. AT&T—along with other providers—are a part of that presentation. You can bet Apple was able to make some considerable plusses available as a result of their partnership with AT&T. If you doubt that for a moment, you definitely need to read up more on the mobile phone industry.

If not for this partnership it is unlikely that Apple would have found many people to accept the phone initially without nerfing some of its features (lookin' at you, Verizon). Prices wouldn't be consistent and reliable, just as they are with other phones. You definitely wouldn't be able to go to the store and buy your iPhone, today, for $199.

As much as you would like to imagine the situation is as simple as Apple doing with the iPhone what they do with OS X, it isn't. They've got to play nice with some other 800 lb. gorillas or a huge mess is going to be created. I think they did the right thing, though. iPhone is a huge hit around the world and that is going to give them much-needed leverage in future negotiations.

[sapporobaby]

But is this really news?

[Booga]

I concur. Apple should make their own software or adapt USB CC reader (as stated) for the iPod Touch. but I don't see this being a priority with only a few thousand needed. It sounds like it would be financially prohibitive.

Since Apple doesn't make a single PoS system I don't see much irony here or that it's a big deal. The system issues seem to be more a problem with Symbol's software, not with MS. Doesn't Apple use a non-Apple solution for their iTunes servers?

My experience with Apple employees using these Symbol devices over the last few years has been great. No issues at all.
I also had no trouble buying my iPhone 3G, but those machines are God-awful slow. We were both sitting there waiting for the thing to process for most of the 5-10 minutes it took to buy the phone. And signing my name on the screen was funny... with the signature lagging behind the stylus by about 5 seconds. In short, yes, the Apple Store employees have learned to cope, but those things sure need to be upgraded.

It would probably be cheaper, though, to just buy faster Windows Mobile hardware...

[Ensign Pulver]

I hope Steve is reading this. Every Apple Store employee should be making these transactions on an iPod touch running Apple's POS software.

[MacTel]

It's Motorola and Microsoft sabotaging Apple! :wow::err::lol::p

[macFanDave]

It's Motorola and Microsoft sabotaging Apple! :wow::err::lol::p

The Empire Strikes Back!

[nagromme]

Doesn't Apple use a non-Apple solution for their iTunes servers?

Last I heard, iTunes Music Store runs on Xserves, using OS X Server and WebObjects.

[Dlux]

Put yourself back in time when there were only thirty or so Apple stores. Did it make sense then for Apple to design, implement, debug, and deploy their own POS system, when they had so many other tasks at hand? What about when there were 80 stores? 120? 200? At some point the volume of devices needed will warrant the engineering expenditure, but that point hasn't passed yet, at least according to Apple.

Also remember that financial transactions are a special breed in terms of absolute reliability and integrity. These Windows-based POS's (pun intended) may be clunky, but they presumably have the data integrity part down. That's why Windows in general owns the specialty integrated solution space - they've been at it for decades, and some systems probably still run DOS.

Give Apple time. Things will change when enough stores are online, the Touch OS is truly stable, and the hardware itself can interface with all the moving parts. (As for bar codes - what about an attached RFID reader instead?) Also bear in mind that some third-party integrator may already be working on an Apple Touch solution, with Apple's blessings, which can replace the Windows units when it's proven itself. A third-party vendor has the advantage that they have a much larger market than Apple's stores alone.

[tandle]

As a former Apple Retail employee I'd like to offer a few comments.

The EZPay system that runs WinCE always was a running joke (how ironic that so much business for Apple occurs via a windows peripheral), but the quotes in the article are a bit alarmist.

The boot process for EZPay is not quite as long as one of the sources suggested, and the fact remains that EZPays are typically never rebooted while being used the rest of the day. While on the floor I would occasionally have issues with slowness running up a transaction, but never severe issues (this was through the iPhone 1.0 launch). You can't really make an article blaming the EZPays for transaction issues when you have a huge increase in sales volume from the 3G iPhones compounded by the activation process. The slowdown could been anywhere from the device to the activation servers. For small transactions the EZPays are usually faster than the full-fledged registers, and they really only lose out on speed when it is a very high item transaction or a transaction that requires corp discounts etc.

Of course everything I say is based on my experience with the devices for a year or so (and everyone has had different personal experiences), but I really don't think this article would have been posted if the devices ran Symbian or some small embedded linux OS. Any slowdown a retail employee has when ringing up a transaction on an EZPay is an opportunity to talk about the thing we've always loved to talk about: Apple Products. So if the customer experience when purchasing an Apple product is standing next to a sales person on the floor chatting about the iPhone for a few minutes vs staring into oblivion while waiting in a very long line to a register I'd say Apple chose right.

[gilles_deleuze]

The rollout of the iPhone 3G required US Apple Store employees to act as AT&T representatives in collecting data from customers and setting up their mobile activations right in the store. The EasyPay devices commonly turned a five minute process into at least a fifteen minute ordeal, according to sources familiar with the devices, severely reducing the number of customers each employee could help. That in turn resulted in extremely long lines that kept some iPhone 3G customers waiting for hours to get the new phone.

Don't they need to sit you down in front of an iMac and complete the sale there? In London, I registered through an Internet-Explorer-only O2 application running in a Windows virtual machine and then activated in iTunes.

"I don't know why they don't create an iPhone application for handling transactions," one Apple store employee said. "The camera could act as a barcode reader, and Apple should be able to figure out how to build a USB interface for the credit card reader.

No one in their right mind set would switch from a dedicated barcode reader to a camera hack. There are bunch of PDA scanners out there, but expectedly, they require an expansion port, usually SD, to hook up to the machine.

[nvidia2008]

Don't they need to sit you down in front of an iMac and complete the sale there? In London, I registered through an Internet-Explorer-only O2 application running in a Windows virtual machine and then activated in iTunes...

I think in the US it is all done through this handheld thingy??? Anyone?

[solipsism]

I think in the US it is all done through this handheld thingy??? Anyone?

He's talking about getting his iPhone set up on O2.

I think the retail assistant had to go another person at a separate terminal who was putting in the new IEMI for my account.

[nvidia2008]

Apple alone offers the OS X experience from the ground up. They have complete control over each level of the presentation. This is not the case with the iPhone. AT&T—along with other providers—are a part of that presentation. You can bet Apple was able to make some considerable plusses available as a result of their partnership with AT&T. If you doubt that for a moment, you definitely need to read up more on the mobile phone industry.

If not for this partnership it is unlikely that Apple would have found many people to accept the phone initially without nerfing some of its features (lookin' at you, Verizon). Prices wouldn't be consistent and reliable, just as they are with other phones. You definitely wouldn't be able to go to the store and buy your iPhone, today, for $199.

As much as you would like to imagine the situation is as simple as Apple doing with the iPhone what they do with OS X, it isn't. They've got to play nice with some other 800 lb. gorillas or a huge mess is going to be created. I think they did the right thing, though. iPhone is a huge hit around the world and that is going to give them much-needed leverage in future negotiations.

You have some good points. At some point Apple has to play ball with the network providers. But has this partnership been beneficial? What are the challenges? Quite a few, as we have seen, though no doubt for both sides lots of sales and cash and interest. Don't get me wrong, the iPhone 3G and the network service has so much goodness and potential. But also, there are pitfalls, such as the 3G class action, complaints, and so on.

Apple's success is built on the simplicity of OS X and OS X-like Windows apps. Hardware is designed to look good, work well, and run OS X smoothly. The iPhone would not be possible without their intelligent "OS X mobile" deployment (forgive the incorrect terminology).

The iTunes Store would not be the top online digital download service if iTunes and Quicktime for Mac (part of OS X) and Windows (OS X-like for Windows) wasn't as easy and effective as it is.

Apple would certainly like to have much more control over the quality and service expectation, and ease of use of the mobile network. It can do this three ways:

1. Accept "fate" and just take a huge shaft up the a** as needed for cash/ service from the mobile network providers, as is the current case.

2. Work closely with mobile network providers to get things smoother. Certainly Apple is doing this, but mostly in the USA. I mean, we know what happened in the UK, it was number 1 above.

3. MVNO. There. I've said it.

What if Apple's "4th Leg" becomes them being some sort of network provider? Not DSL, Not WiFi, but say 3.5G or 4G or 5G?

With an MVNO the global rollout will be difficult initially but it might very well guarantee a much smoother Apple Mobile Products launches.

For example, Apple is selling the iPhone 3G everywhere in the world. Then in 2009, it obviously *has* to sell mobile products around the world.

It has tried to leverage the existing mobile providers. This is like hiring the local militia or mercenaries when invading a country. In the long run, is this effective?

Apple laying the groundwork globally as an MVNO is like building forward bases when invading a country. There is a foundation to work on more under control by Apple themselves.

Remember the MVNO model has huge popularity and success around the world, and the best part is that you're not exactly going in yourself to license the spectrum in a country.

Of course though, at the end of the day, the business and cash strategy of which part of 1, 2, and 3 I listed above, is what Apple wants to do. The options are there, and we'll see what choices they make.

[solipsism]

3. MVNO. There. I've said it.

I'd like to read more speculation on this as a im/possibility. Not just Nvidia, but anyone.

[zunx]

There is yet another reason. You cannot do with the iPhone things that have been done with Windows Mobile smartphones for years:

Impatica ShowMate
http://www.impatica.com/showmate

Commercial People-ready searching for "No Baggage" at:
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us

THAT ON THE IPHONE WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE KEYNOTE AND POWERPOINT REMOTE!!!

[Walter Slocombe]

Haven't read all the comments, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

But, Don't we always hear how Apple IS/SHOULD or NEEDS to be moving into the business sector.

well what better way than to provide a point of sale solution with all the Apple simplicity that we know them capable of. they can test run and iron out the bugs in their own stores for a year first, build a buzz, get the free advertising that would happen as sales increase, put a spin on it, because we already know the sales will just keep increasing anyway :)

and what kind of a halo effect would the good reports coming back from other companies sales teams provide.

"get the apple solution to POS and increase your profits"

mmm.. then maybe i'll investigate these Macs and iWork.

from a number of angles it makes sense.

[sapporobaby]

I'd like to read more speculation on this as a im/possibility. Not just Nvidia, but anyone.

It is not hard to do. Just brand some cards, buy some bandwidth. Germany was one of the first to go the MVNO route. Usually the MVNO's do well and then are bought out by the bandwidth provider. Unless the MVNO is buying minutes and other services by the gazillion it is hard to make money for them because their model is based on undercutting the host operator.

[Sevenfeet]

This is a classic example of a large customer like Apple needing a sophisticated POS system but having limited choices, all of them lousy. Apple stores were so popular that queues for purchase were becoming a problem in many locations. Also, Apple stores needed the real estate that registers occupied for showing product or other features, like the Genius Bar. The solution were to give all store employees the opportunity to complete a sale right where the customer was standing. But designing such a system wasn't easy or as obvious as you think.

Apple runs one of the largest SAP implementations going. But in order to make a handheld POS system that could be rolled out quickly, Apple had few choices. WindowsCE systems already existed, including the hardware for barcoding and printing of receipts. They already had proper hooks into ERP systems. For anybody else, it would be enough. But for Apple, it was a painful reminder to customers that Apple wasn't "eating it's own dogfood" in a circumstance that customers would see at every sale.

The alternative was using iPhones or iPod Touches to do the same thing, but 18 months ago, Apple was struggling just to get iPhone 1.0 out the door, much less worry about a POS system based on it. And or course, no SAP APIs existed for the nacest iPhone either...Apple would have to write them.

It's not like they aren't working on a home grown technology now...I'm certain they are.
I'm sure that either we will see a change in the next year to iPod Touches running a custom application that securely ties back to the SAP ERP system. The other problem is doing barcode reading and printing. You could either build a special iPod Touch with these features built in (at great expense) or use a separate wireless solution to a different device to handle that (much like the rental car companies do now).

[probably]

I found that while using them that if they screwed up while processing someone's MacBook Pro payment, that being frustrated and laughing, "Oh these things run Windows" only affirmed the customer's choice of computer. Even though they now have to wait several more minutes for the thing to reboot.

It's a self-healing 'problem,' though at their customer foot traffic/volume lately maybe there isn't room for that.

[teckstud]

But is this really news?

Yes because it has the word "iPhone" in it.:lol:
This article is a joke- blame the Windows device and not yourself on your own incompetent retail check out procedure?

[wobegon]

Yes because it has the word "iPhone" in it.:lol:
This article is a joke- blame the Windows device and not yourself on your own incompetent retail check out procedure?

If you read the article, Apple also uses MacBook Pros with custom, Apple-designed checkout software that's much improved over these WinMobile-based point of service devices. The problem squarely rests with these POS systems that feature outdated hardware, software, and operating system. Apple isn't the only one using these devices.

[Cubert]

It sounds like at least some people at Apple are masochistic.

[teckstud]

If you read the article, Apple also uses MacBook Pros with custom, Apple-designed checkout software that's much improved over these WinMobile-based point of service devices. The problem squarely rests with these POS systems that feature outdated hardware, software, and operating system. Apple isn't the only one using these devices.

You are joking aren't you? AS if buying an 3G iPhone is an easy thing to begin with?
Who else is complaining about the devices? I've checked out of Apple for 2 years plus on these with my purchases and have never had a problem. These device are made for quick , easy check outs. The real problem is that Apple has a f*#ked up buying procedure for the iPhone- plain and simple.
And where was the thread that should have been posted here for over two years plus on the irony that Windows devices are used in the first place in Apple stores? Only now when there is a problem with iPhone check outs???:no:

[ncee]

I don't know. Rumors are that the back end of each retail store is on a Windows server. I don't know if that's true, but if there aren't OS X programs to handle a niche need for that, then they need to use what's available or pay a lot to develop one for just a couple hundred stores, their developers are better used to work on paying products.

But if they partner with a company, to make a docking card reader, I don't see why it wouldn't be worth doing. That way, the reader and program can be marketed to other companies.


I personally hadn't seen any problems with the devices when I paid (or got a refund) through those devices.

I'd have to say "Not so". Can you imagine what some folks would pay to have a picture of that, to run on the cover of their magazine.

I can see it now -

"Want to keep your Mac running smoothly" "Do what Apple does, run your system on a Windoze server"

Can you imagine the fun Bill Gatesvand Jerry Seinfeld could have with this in their corner.

Jesus, that would be just what Bill Gates has been looking for, to slam his buddy Steve.

Skip

[teckstud]

Hire more cashiers to attend to your "guests".:\

[Idle]

I'd have to say "Not so". Can you imagine what some folks would pay to have a picture of that, to run on the cover of their magazine.

I can see it now -

"Want to keep your Mac running smoothly" "Do what Apple does, run your system on a Windoze server"

Can you imagine the fun Bill Gatesvand Jerry Seinfeld could have with this in their corner.

Jesus, that would be just what Bill Gates has been looking for, to slam his buddy Steve.

Skip
Have you ever checked this out for yourself? I can't say whether Windows is being used, but it's true that the main servers are not OS X-based.

[wobegon]

You are joking aren't you? AS if buying an 3G iPhone is an easy thing to begin with?
Who else is complaining about the devices? I've checked out of Apple for 2 years plus on these with my purchases and have never had a problem. These device are made for quick , easy check outs. The real problem is that Apple has a f*#ked up buying procedure for the iPhone- plain and simple.
And where was the thread that should have been posted here for over two years plus on the irony that Windows devices are used in the first place in Apple stores? Only now when there is a problem with iPhone check outs???:no:

Who's complaining? THE CLERKS THAT ACTUALLY USE THE DEVICES. :wow: They state the devices have never been ideal, but thanks to the iPhone launch craziness, the devices can't keep up and their quirks are amplified by the high demand. Of course there's almost no question Apple's likely developing a solution that would leverage their own iPhone/iPod touch mobile WiFi platform and SDK, but that doesn't excuse the poor quality of these portable point-of-service devices. These EasyPay handhelds are used by more than just Apple, yet the company that makes the hardware and/or software obviously doesn't care about ease of use or performance (especially under pressure).

[wobegon]

Have you ever checked this out for yourself? I can't say whether Windows is being used, but it's true that the main servers are not OS X-based.

Apple's use of WinMobile-based POS devices is an exception because there are very few devices like them and Apple has not yet developed their own portable alternative; they already have custom Mac software for stationary checkouts using their own MacBook Pros and iMacs.

With servers, on the other hand, if Apple isn't using their own - I don't exactly understand what "main" servers you're talking about - they're likely using Linux/Unix based servers because there are many options in the server area, with good alternatives to Microsoft's servers and software.

[SpamSandwich]

But is this really news?

No. It's whipping up a story for a slow news day. They have to keep up those advertiser-supported click-throughs!

[noirdesir]

And I haven't even mentioned this carrier-locking nonsense.
The world has just gotten used to buying mobile phones on credit since the credit rates are conveniently hidden inside the monthly fees.

[Idle]

I don't exactly understand what "main" servers you're talking about - they're likely using Linux/Unix based servers because there are many options in the server area, with good alternatives to Microsoft's servers and software.
"Main" servers as in the servers in each store that handle the heavy operations. As opposed to, say, file servers.

[wobegon]

"Main" servers as in the servers in each store that handle the heavy operations. As opposed to, say, file servers.

Ah, thanks. :D

[†MiMiC]

I'm sure Apple will eventually replace them, but right now with so much work to do on iPhone that will benefit so many customers, I guess writing a custom bit of software for the retail stores isn't high on the list of priorities.

it is better for the M$ handhelds to look bad rather than the iPhone with the current app running on the Macs. So you're right. Get the iPhone done and done, then port the app over.

[winterspan]

This is a classic example of a large customer like Apple needing a sophisticated POS system but having limited choices, all of them lousy.
But, Don't we always hear how Apple IS/SHOULD or NEEDS to be moving into the business sector.

Agreed. I don't have extensive experience working in business-related information systems software and hardware (AKA "ERP", "MIS", "EIS", ) but the little bit I've been exposed to has certainly been frightening. It doesn't matter if you are talking about POS systems, Inventory control/Stock management, Supply-chain management, Resource management, Procurement, Order fulfillment, Distribution, Transport/shipping, etc. The plethora of software solutions and plaforms all have significant problems and inefficiencies. They are not the only one to blame, as they just control the OS platform, but Microsoft has indeed had a significant hand in creating this mess.

Although Apple is certainly struggling to keep up with all their activity, the opportunity that lies before them if they can catch up is almost unfathomable. I understand that there are immense challenges inherit in expanding a company like Apple, and the fact that adding more developers and engineers to their existing treams and creating new ones is not a straightforward process or an easy solution, But they have got to hire more people with the mountains of cash they are sitting on. If Steve and co. can keep the ship held together, they could readily expand into other areas that drastically need the type of integrated and easy-to-use software platform that Apple is known for.

Besides just Apple's "enterprise team" boosting OSX and OSX server usage in business and enterprise markets, just think of the awesome platform that their mobile OSX could make for embedded applications where Windows CE/XP embedded is being used now. They already have the kernel and lower-level system running well and optimized for low-memory/low power environments using the ubiquitous ARM architecture. The mature system libraries pulled from desktop OSX would make it relatively easy to extend for adding barcode readers, magnetic strip readers, imaging systems, etc or connecting control systems.

Potential applications would be pretty much anywhere Windows CE, Windows XP embedded, and various Linux distributions and proprietary embedded operating systems are used. I'm not sure if deterministic/real-time systems would be included or not, although I believe certain versions of Windows CE are real-time. POS, ATMs, automated purchasing kiosks, advertising displays, billboards, consumer electronics devices, television set-top boxes, video game consoles, dvd players, printers, microwaves, washing machines, dishwashers, HVAC, home automation, scientific systems, data acquisition, avionics, automobile systems, medical equipment, remote sensing, etc etc etc.



What if Apple's "4th Leg" becomes them being some sort of network provider? Not DSL, Not WiFi, but say 3.5G or 4G or 5G? With an MVNO the global rollout will be difficult initially but it might very well guarantee a much smoother Apple Mobile Products launches.


Not sure about the MVNO route. Is has been a terrible failure in America, and mostly relegated to low-end, pre-paid accounts for teenagers, people with bad credit, drug dealers LOL, etc. Perhaps the environment is different overseas.

[sapporobaby]

No. It's whipping up a story for a slow news day. They have to keep up those advertiser-supported click-throughs!

But it did have the word: "iPhone" in it so that must be news.

[sapporobaby]

Yes because it has the word "iPhone" in it.:lol:
This article is a joke- blame the Windows device and not yourself on your own incompetent retail check out procedure?

Could not have said it better myself.

[thor79]

My experience in Apple stores has been poor frankly. Getting my iPhone setup was ok...in and out in under 15 minutes. The other times I go there it's usually a mad house of people shopping around waiting for their appointments or classes or whatever. There's little to no organization. The first time I went there I stood there wondering where the hell I had to pay for the merchandise I just picked up. Finally after getting one of the employees attention I found out about the corner of the genius bar that serves as the cash register.

Also, at one point I had to return an item and got a hold of one of the employees with the EasyPay devices who said she could return the item for me. After 10 minutes of messing with the damn thing I was told the only way I could get my money back was by putting it on an Apple gift card. After insisting I would not accept the Gift Card solution she went to the regular check out counter and promptly finished the return...easily done and got the money credited to my debit card with no problems.

Honestly it surprises me they haven't figured out a way to get the same functionality out of the iPhone that the EasyPay system has.

Not that it would fix the lame unorganized fashion of the typical Apple store at primetime hours...but whatever...

[rtdunham]

apple's waiting til its new 5" touchpad is released.

[ka5ysy]

Sources within Apple's retail stores report that sales of the iPhone 3G are being slowed down by handhelds running Microsoft Windows Mobile/WinCE. That's because the stores have been selling new iPhones to customers using the old EasyPay, a problematic Pocket PC handheld computer that's causing employees lots of grief....


Interestingly, I went by the Apple store in Baton Rouge to upgrade my wife's phone to an iPhone. The kid that was helping me was obviously having "issues" with the setup because I have 3 phones on the master account. It took about 30 minutes with him running over to his supervisor asking questions, and then telling me I was not upgrade eligible, then that there was something past due, etc. Finally, after about six trips into the back of the store for something, we went over to the genius bar to connect to a laptop to actually activate the phone. As he unplugged the phone, it rang and he handed it to me. Thinking it was someone calling my wife, I answered and discovered one of my clients who obviously would not have my wife's phone number. Hmmm... seems the salesman put my number into my wife's phone and killed mine, which I quickly advised him of.

He had a confused look on his face then went into the back of the store for about the 8th time for whatever. After about 5 minutes he came back and asked me if I was in a hurry ! (no.. I am an attorney, it is the middle of the day, why would I possibly be in a hurry :???:)

Several more "consults" took place and then he proceeded to remove the SIM tool from the box and tell me that we could simply put my SIM in the new phone, put a new SIM in my phone and then when I get home call AT&T and they could fix the problem. (yes, this really happened!)

At this point I asked him if he realized that my contacts etc were in the old phone and whether he knew that the SIM is matched to the ESN of a cellphone. He had a blank look and I asked him if he had any idea what I just asked him. Another blank look. At this point I told him to stop doing anything to the phones, put my SIM back in my phone and put the new phone back in its box.

I left the Apple store and went to the AT&T store where it took about 5 minutes and two new SIM cards to fix the whole mess.

Considering I am an Apple user since the days of the first Macintosh (complete with a 5MB Bernoulli box!!) this was a major FUBAR. If I had been a first time user of Apple products, this would have terminated any possibility of ever dealing with Apple again.

If anyone from Apple watches this, go find my survey that I was emailed and read the comments.... those handheld terminals are absolutely the dumbest thing to use for setting up a telephone account I have ever seen. Considering the AT&T stores all use normal computer screens and keyboards, it would seem that since Apple stores are flush with computers that a simple web-based application would solve a lot of grief for the customers.

Doug


P.S. Generally, I am pretty laid back about dress codes since I hate wearing ties and suits, but the employees in the Baton Rouge store pretty much looked sloppy and unprofessional when I went in. iPhone T-shirts either in or out of the pants, sometimes a little of both, odd combinations of jeans, dress pants, tennis shoes etc. If you want staff preceived as professional, you need to tighten up a little bit over here.

[pmjoe]

This may be the most ignorant AppleInsider article to date. These Symbol devices are in use for point of sale applications everywhere. Windows CE is used for embedded and other applications like this everywhere. If there's something wrong with this EasyPay software, find out who makes that and write an article on that (wasn't it Apple themselves who was hyping EasyPay?). As to the Symbol PPT8800 being "ugly", wake me when Apple produces a ruggedized, mobile point of sale device ... and I'll buy one. Between now and then, I'd suggest a journalism class for this article's author.

Oh, and AppleInsider lost my first attempt to post this, by making me log in multiple times. For your next article, I'd suggest "Posting hampered by AppleInsider Forums".

[wobegon]

This may be the most ignorant AppleInsider article to date. These Symbol devices are in use for point of sale applications everywhere. Windows CE is used for embedded and other applications like this everywhere. If there's something wrong with this EasyPay software, find out who makes that and write an article on that (wasn't it Apple themselves who was hyping EasyPay?). As to the Symbol PPT8800 being "ugly", wake me when Apple produces a ruggedized, mobile point of sale device ... and I'll buy one. Between now and then, I'd suggest a journalism class for this article's author.

The fact that these point of service devices are used broadly isn't a counterpoint, it only helps make this story more relevant. The iPhone 3G's launch was anything but smooth with Apple's activation servers failing on one end and these WinMobile-based devices, with their low performance, quirks, and EasyPay's finicky software unable to keep up with high demand on the other. These devices don't care what company's using them, so Apple employees are not alone in experiencing their shortcomings. Furthermore, this isn't Jobs or his colleagues complaining, just the retail employees. :rolleyes:

As for Apple producing their own solution, obviously they're not going to waste time and money developing a wholly new POS device when they have a far more useable alternative: the iPhone and/or iPod touch. While they use Symbol's systems for some purchasing, MacBook Pros around the store are also used, which feature custom Apple checkout software that was noted in the article as working much better and faster. The iPhone's camera is likely capable of serving as a barcode scanner, so a credit card swipe-reader is all they really need. Once they have one that uses the iPhone's dock connector, the desktop checkout software can be ported using the iPhone SDK and presto, a far more useable POS device. They don't have to then waste time and money trying to compete in the POS market; this will be a custom system only available in Apple retail stores, at least in the short-term.

Oh, and AppleInsider lost my first attempt to post this, by making me log in multiple times. For your next article, I'd suggest "Posting hampered by AppleInsider Forums".

Let's see, would that be newsworthy?

[pmjoe]

The fact that these point of service devices are used broadly isn't a counterpoint, it only helps make this story more relevant. The iPhone 3G's launch was anything but smooth with Apple's activation servers failing on one end and these WinMobile-based devices, with their low performance, quirks, and EasyPay's finicky software unable to keep up with high demand on the other. These devices don't care what company's using them, so Apple employees are not alone in experiencing their shortcomings. Furthermore, this isn't Jobs or his colleagues complaining, just the retail employees. :rolleyes:
Windows CE worked perfectly fine the last time I was at the gas station. These Symbol devices worked fine the last time I was going into a stadium/arena for a game (tens of thousands of people in a very short time) and at the DMV. Search for EasyPay on Google and you'll find dozens of articles where Apple is touting how EasyPay is the next great thing in sales. Sounds like Apple's problem to me, not some "ugly" device or Windows Mobile as this article implies.
As for Apple producing their own solution, obviously they're not going to waste time and money developing a wholly new POS device when they have a far more useable alternative: the iPhone and/or iPod touch. [...] The iPhone's camera is likely capable of serving as a barcode scanner, so a credit card swipe-reader is all they really need. Once they have one that uses the iPhone's dock connector, the desktop checkout software can be ported using the iPhone SDK and presto, a far more useable POS device.
???? First you say they aren't going to do it, then you imply they will?!?! Like I said, wake me when they do. Probably far more likely that they'll drop the mobile sale thing entirely.

[wobegon]

Windows CE worked perfectly fine the last time I was at the gas station. These Symbol devices worked fine the last time I was going into a stadium/arena for a game (tens of thousands of people in a very short time) and at the DMV. Search for EasyPay on Google and you'll find dozens of articles where Apple is touting how EasyPay is the next great thing in sales. Sounds like Apple's problem to me, not some "ugly" device or Windows Mobile as this article implies.

I guess I should have bolded this:

Furthermore, this isn't Jobs or his colleagues complaining, just the retail employees.

I never suggested that the powers that be at Apple were badmouthing these devices, and neither is the article. They're obviously better than nothing and functional enough that their use is fairly widespread. That doesn't excuse their problems, which were detailed in the article, quoted from Apple retail employees that use them on a daily basis. Slow start-up time, with dialogs that, if missed, cause the device to boot into WinMobile, at which point the process has to be entirely restarted. The EasyPay software is slow and can time-out, turning a five minute sale into a 15 minute ordeal. Other companies using these things have no real room to criticize them as most businesses don't have the resources to develop a near complete alternative, like Apple with its iPhone and SDK.

???? First you say they aren't going to do it, then you imply they will?!?! Like I said, wake me when they do. Probably far more likely that they'll drop the mobile sale thing entirely.

No, I said they would not create a "wholly new POS device," as you were suggesting, but instead leverage their own more than capable iPhone/iPod touch mobile WiFi platform and SDK, with the only new hardware being a card reader that connects via the docking interface. Standalone, portable card swipers may already exist, so even that might not be an issue.

[BigFatDuck]

You know, I always thought it would be much cooler and appropriate for apple to write software for the iphone to handle sales, maybe have a barcode scanner attachment? not probable, but i would be impressed to see apple store employees using their iphones instead of those big ugly pocketPC things.

[blogorant]

Wow... I guess if we can't blame the Republicans we need to blame Microsoft. This was a clever if not ambitious stretch. Has anyone contacted George Lucas? Spielberg? Can't wait for the movie.

Ps... I wonder why Apple didn't just use the almighty iPhone as its mobile POS platform? Maybe by version 2.99.99 of the firmware.

[solipsism]

Ps... I wonder why Apple didn't just use the almighty iPhone as its mobile POS platform? Maybe by version 2.99.99 of the firmware.

1) If they did, they would use the iPod Touch as there is no need for a cellphone on a PoS system.

2) There is no PoS software for the mobile OS X right now. Apple could have thrown something together by now, but #3 would still be an issue.

3) There is no magnetic strip reader for the iPod right now. There are USB CC readers out there but a 3rd-party would need to adopt one to fit the Touch's design. I think Apple will adopt something eventually, but they will want to by someone's iPod Touch CC reader for the job.

[wobegon]

1) If they did, they would use the iPod Touch as there is no need for a cellphone on a PoS system.

2) There is no PoS software for the mobile OS X right now. Apple could have thrown something together by now, but #3 would still be an issue.

3) There is no magnetic strip reader for the iPod right now. There are USB CC readers out there but a 3rd-party would need to adopt one to fit the Touch's design. I think Apple will adopt something eventually, but they will want to by someone's iPod Touch CC reader for the job.

While I agree with most of what you said, you're leaving out part of the PoS equation: barcode scanner. The iPhone has has one: a 2.0MP camera. At the same time, while iPhones are sold for $200 to $300, we both know that's due to cellular contract subsidizing.

So Apple has a few options. They could 1) use the iPhone 3G (at a high cost) and develop or use a third party USB-to-dock-connector credit card reader, 2) use the more affordable iPod touch while developing or using a third party credit card reader and barcode scanner, or 3) put the same 2.0MP camera used by the iPhone into the next iPod touch (as part of the September iPod refresh) and then simply develop or use a third party credit card reader.

I'm thinking (and hoping) that Apple will go with option #3. I mean, why not throw in a camera? It won't be better than the iPhone's because at the end of the day, Apple wants to sell more iPhones than anything else, but the 2.0MP camera is no doubt cheap and useable. It'd also set the touch even further apart from touch screen competitors in the portable media player market while at the same time giving Apple a near feature-complete, cost effective, and far more useable PoS device.

They'd just need to port their existing custom desktop software using the iPhone/iPod touch SDK and connect a CC reader via a wire or maybe one that clips right onto the bottom of the iPod touch.

Ha, thinking over it again, Apple could develop their own CC reader, and while it would still be attachable and detachable from the standard iPod touch, they could sell the two together as a package to other retail stores, jumping into yet another enterprise with a good likelihood of high demand. 8-)

[solipsism]

While I agree with most of what you said, you're leaving out part of the PoS equation: barcode scanner.
Thanks. I had meant to comment on that. At the very least, if a magnetic strip reader was made for the Touch there is no reason why a barcode reader couldn't be part of that design.

3) put the same 2.0MP camera used by the iPhone into the next iPod touch (as part of the September iPod refresh) and then simply develop or use a third party credit card reader.

I'm thinking (and hoping) that Apple will go with option #3. I mean, why not throw in a camera? It won't be better than the iPhone's because at the end of the day, Apple wants to sell more iPhones than anything else, but the 2.0MP camera is no doubt cheap and useable. It'd also set the touch even further apart from touch screen competitors in the portable media player market while at the same time giving Apple a near feature-complete, cost effective, and far more useable PoS device.
A camera does make sense on some levels. Like you say, it is cheap and Apple no longer has the profit sharing model going which eliminates some desire for pushing people towards the iPhone. But I don't think it will and have doubts that it could happen. The iPhone is 12.3mm while the iPod Touch is only 8mm. I don't think most people would mind a decent camera extending out from the case, like on several Nokia phones, but I think Apple would have a problem with it.

Ha, thinking over it again, Apple could develop their own CC reader, while it would still be attachable and detachable from the standard iPod touch, they could sell the two together to other retail stores, jumping into yet another enterprise.
I hope they don't go this route. I want them to concentrate on what they have got going on. Apple is exceptional at focusing on specific items—even Bates admitted this much in an email—but they have recently shown that they are not so good at having too many things going at once or perhaps they are just spreading themselves too thin. Either way, I want them to get their consumer products up to par before considering this route.

However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.

edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices. Since any HW accessory would also be plugged into the 30-pin connector at the bottom edge of the unit, I see no reason why a hinged physical keyboard could not be used. They could even get creative and have the underside of the keyboard be useful when its flipped out like a Star Trek communicator (I can't believe I just made a Star Trek reference); like a pad for some sort of simple drawing application or more buttons for specific functions.

[SDW2001]

Well I finally got my iPhone today. It's funny...the guy doing the sale complained about the PocketPC system he was running. And truly...it was pretty bad. He needed to re-enter several things a few times, and the system was about as clunky as could be. Overall, the experience was pretty quick though.

[Olternaut]

For da luv of gawd already! Come out with your uber tablet device would yas Apple!! Your retail problems will be solved then! :rolleyes:

[wobegon]

A camera does make sense on some levels. Like you say, it is cheap and Apple no longer has the profit sharing model going which eliminates some desire for pushing people towards the iPhone. But I don't think it will and have doubts that it could happen. The iPhone is 12.3mm while the iPod Touch is only 8mm. I don't think most people would mind a decent camera extending out from the case, like on several Nokia phones, but I think Apple would have a problem with it.

Ok, I agree, with the iPod touch in its current state, if the camera could fit, but would protrude, Apple certainly wouldn't go through with that.

That's assuming the touch will remain physically the same in the upcoming refresh. I question that. As we've seen in the last few product revisions and new product introductions, Jonathan Ive has discovered a design trick: tapered edges. I know, sounds simple. The aluminum iMac last year did away with the rounded square back in favor of a more curved back. The MacBook Air debuted in January with tapered edges, unlike the rounded rectangle MacBook and MacBook Pro (the latter of which has been pictured in spy shots that show a similar tapered redesign). The new iPhone went from rounded rectangle to tapered edges and rounded, making it feel better in the and and feel thinner than the original. I see the same thing happening to the iPhone's cousin, the iPod touch. Tapered edges with a more rounded back (still metal of course). That could open up some space for a camera.

I hope they don't go this route. I want them to concentrate on what they have got going on. Apple is exceptional at focusing on specific items—even Bates admitted this much in an email—but they have recently shown that they are not so good at having too many things going at once or perhaps they are just spreading themselves too thin. Either way, I want them to get their consumer products up to par before considering this route.

I wasn't trying to suggest Apple design and manufacture a credit card reader and then sell it bundled with a camera-sporting iPod touch in the midst of polishing up MobileMe, coding a crucial iPhone 2.1 update, and launching the iPhone 3G in over 70 countries by the end of this year, possibly including Russia. :wow: That would be crazy. :D

But when they have the time, I don't doubt they'll come up with a PoS that leverages what they already have in the iPod touch and what they can easily slap together: a simple card reader that clips onto the bottom of the iPod touch, interfacing with the dock connector, and a mobile version of their custom desktop checkout software. For a time, it would be an Apple Store exclusive device, of course, but once it's proven its worth, why not offer it to other retail stores dealing with the less than ideal WinMobile/Symbol PoS handhelds? It would help Apple in another enterprise, increase sales, put mobile OS X's interface in front of hundreds of retail employees and customers might even notice the  symbol on the back and the fact that Apple's iPod touches are being used in a serious business setting. Retail would be just the beginning. Restaurants could use them as well.

Didn't you read THIS (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/18/apple_enterprise_sending_thousands_of_macs_into_ho tels_cruise_ships.html) recent article on how Apple is already doing well in the hotel and cruise ship enterprise? Presenting the iPod touch as a WiFi-enabled PoS to the business sector, with its easy to use and program applications that can be distributed using the iPhone Enterprise Developer Program and easily controlled and updated through iTunes would be in keeping with these kind of expansions into new markets.

However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.

edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices. Since any HW accessory would also be plugged into the 30-pin connector at the bottom edge of the unit, I see no reason why a hinged physical keyboard could not be used. They could even get creative and have the underside of the keyboard be useful when its flipped out like a Star Trek communicator (I can't believe I just made a Star Trek reference); like a pad for some sort of simple drawing application or more buttons for specific functions.

Ha, interesting thoughts, but do Symbol's PoS handhelds even offer tethering to a standard keyboard? From the pictures, they only appear to have a small number pad, which could be duplicated on a virtual keyboard, so that's not an issue. If keyboard tethering is a big necessary feature, Apple could pretty easily offer their own keyboards with a dock connector at the end instead of USB, or perhaps a USB-to-dock adapter so any keyboard could be used. If Apple put Bluetooth into the iPod touch too, they could use that for wireless keyboard pairing, both for business and consumers who have something lengthy to type.

[jfanning]

However, there are more benefits than a handheld PoS device. A barcode scanner for the Touch would also be instrumental with inventory needs. There might even be some way of taking a barcode scan (or picture) of an item in a large lot and have a GPS unit grab the location. Is Apple holding back on allowing for 3rd-party hardware for the iPhone and Touch? I ask because I'm surprised by how few accessories there are when the HW power and App Store allow for so much potential.


Symbol hold a lot of the patents for barcode reading, so to develop a dedicated barcode reader can be very expensive


edit: I forgot something else: The virtual keyboard is also be a hindrance for many non-consumer applications. While it's great for its versatility, if you need a PoS or inventory handheld appliance that requires you to do extension typing then a virtual keyboard may be more of a hassle than using Symbol's devices.

Yes (and I don't like saying this) I agree, you either have to reduce the amount of typing performed, or introduce a physical keyboard. I have used POS systems in the past on Symbols with only a virtual keypad and you lose too much of the screen real estate

[jfanning]

Ha, interesting thoughts, but do Symbol's PoS handhelds even offer tethering to a standard keyboard? From the pictures, they only appear to have a small number pad, which could be duplicated on a virtual keyboard, so that's not an issue. If keyboard tethering is a big necessary feature, Apple could pretty easily offer their own keyboards with a dock connector at the end instead of USB, or perhaps a USB-to-dock adapter so any keyboard could be used. If Apple put Bluetooth into the iPod touch too, they could use that for wireless keyboard pairing, both for business and consumers who have something lengthy to type.

Yes they do, the models that have BT support can connect to a BT keyboard.

If you are performing a lot of data entry on these things, a physical keyboard is a very handy thing to have (even numeric)

[scotty321]

It is truly embarrassing to walk into an Apple Store and see them using these Windows Mobile handhelds.

[sapporobaby]

It is truly embarrassing to walk into an Apple Store and see them using these Windows Mobile handhelds.

Embarrassing to whom? I don't go to Apple shops to look at their POS systems. I go to purchase things that I want or require. I couldn't care what system they use as long as I get what I want. What I find embarrassing is that a MS POS can evoke so much emotion over something that really does not matter.

P.S. Who cares?

[nvidia2008]

Oops wrong thread...

[cubefan]

Symbol hold a lot of the patents for barcode reading, so to develop a dedicated barcode reader can be very expensive



Yes (and I don't like saying this) I agree, you either have to reduce the amount of typing performed, or introduce a physical keyboard. I have used POS systems in the past on Symbols with only a virtual keypad and you lose too much of the screen real estate

Thought I would add a few notes having had experience of Retail POS in the UK, a lot of systems still run Win95, later ones NT4, still later Win2k. The applications are developed by specialist POS developers. POS systems ARE EXPENSIVE to buy at around $15-20000 each.
Apple's retail POS is based on old technology and Apple ARE doing something about it, but its a non trivial exercise.

I agree that it would be totally cool to have an app on an iPod touch with USB reader, just because its a proprietary connector (doing lots of different things) doesn't mean that you cannot plug a USB device into it.

[jfanning]

Thought I would add a few notes having had experience of Retail POS in the UK, a lot of systems still run Win95, later ones NT4, still later Win2k. The applications are developed by specialist POS developers. POS systems ARE EXPENSIVE to buy at around $15-20000 each.
Apple's retail POS is based on old technology and Apple ARE doing something about it, but its a non trivial exercise.

I agree that it would be totally cool to have an app on an iPod touch with USB reader, just because its a proprietary connector (doing lots of different things) doesn't mean that you cannot plug a USB device into it.

I thought we were talking about the portable devices the sales people are using, not the fixed units at the counters? The portable ones (while they are expensive) are no where near $15k

[glennrg]

While the technology discussed is interesting and I'm sure does have an effect on how fast Apple can process sales, there's another element that Apple seems to "not get".

Last month I was on vacation at the New Jersey shore. I had put off getting an iPhone until the apps came out. It was time to upgrade from my Treo. Checking availability of stores in the shore area that night I saw that the Atlantic City store was due to have a stock of iPhones the next morning.

The stars were aligned as the next morning it was raining at the shore so I suggested we take a ride up to the mall on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. Wife and 17 year old daughter were good with that.

We drive up, park, wait for the mall to open, stand in line at the Apple store. Stand in line at the Apple store for 2 hours. When I'm the next one scheduled to go into the store and be "annointed" an Apple employee starts working her way down the line.

She was making sure everyone was set with what they needed before they got into the store. Are you over 18 — check, have a valid credit card — check, have an existing A T & T account — check, is this a personal or business plan — a business plan I reply. Oh I'm sorry we can't help you. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Can I talk to the manager? Sure -- 15 minutes later I end up talking with her. Sure enough they are right, I am wrong. Later I saw that indeed Apple stores only do personal cell phone plans. Not that got back the half day lost on my vacation.

I then gave the Apple store manager this suggestion:

"Why don't you have someone sit down at one of the 30 or so Macs and type up the questions that you asked us all after we stood in line for 2 hours? Then have the newest person come out and pass them out to the people in line. I would have read that 2 hours ago, maybe have had a question but I'd be back at our rental house an hour and a half ago and wouldn't have wasted my whole morning."

BTW am I the only one that has noticed the following:

Most Apple store employees look like they're from a Gap commercial.
Most managers are women at Apple stores.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for advancing women that are qualified and younger college kids I realize do have a better grasp of technology as well as being willing to work for the wages that Apple pays.

I still wonder why; of all the Apple stores I've visited from New York to California I've seen absolutely no one that looks like me with my experience; an early 50's business person that cut their eye teeth in 1984 on Macs.

Why is that?

I think if Apple would staff their stores with some people with real business experience using Mac's with some basic common sense they would be able to avoid some of the problems they have.

[glennrg]

IWhen the heck is Apple ever going to acknowledge and devote some engineering time to retail sales. They don't even have a home brewed solution at their own stores.

Right now were going through an accounting conversion to a Windows based system - and I'm the one that pushed for it. (And I'm a devout Apple user since 1984). This is an accounting program that is sold exclusively to music stores. Many of the stores sell Mac based music software and prefer Macs. The consultant that is helping us get up and running commented that many of the stores he works with have serious Mac users.

So why aren't they using a Mac solution? Because like the Apple stores using the Windows Mobile based hand helds there ain't one.

I should preface that by saying that there are some. They lack the depth of features of what music stores need - such as; serial number tracking, trade ins, rentals, depreciating rental units, etc.

We've had the MYOB rep. out to our MUG meetings several times. I even called him before we pulled the switch on the Windows based accounting program. As good as MYOB is he admitted that for industries like ours we have two choices; live with the limitations of a generic accounting program or use a Windows based vertical market accounting program.

We went with the latter unfortunately - but we have a business to run.

It pains me in that I know Apple could own the small retail market if they wanted to just devote a little bit of effort in engineering, understanding the market and encouraging developers to offer a Mac solution for retail much the way they have for developers for the iPhone apps.

Come on Apple, spend some time, money and a bit of marketing with the smaller nich accounting companies to come up with some solutions. You would own the market.