Study points to network weakness as source of iPhone 3G woes

[AppleInsider]

The results of an informal study of iPhone 3G users worldwide are in, and they suggest that problems with 3G networks -- not the iPhone's hardware -- are the source of a growing number of complaints about poor reception and download speeds.

Commissioned by Wired nearly two weeks ago, the study sought the voluntary participation of iPhone 3G users around the world to test their iPhone's network connection at TestMyiPhone.com and submit the honest results of those speed tests to an interactive Zeemap.

After analyzing over 2,600 submissions (and more than a thousand others that were discarded because they were either blank or included an incomplete set of results), Wired concluded that the widely reported iPhone data speed problems "have more to do with carriers' networks than with Apple's handsets."

Overall, the user-submitted results show that 3G networks are performing faster than EDGE around the world -- as would be expected. The best case scenarios reported 3G performance that was seven times that of EDGE, while other scenarios had 3G performing just as slowly as EDGE. In the worse case scenarios, users reported that they were unable to connect to 3G at all.

In particular, participants in Australia reported the slowest average 3G download speeds of about 759 Kbps, while users in Germany and the Netherlands reported the fastest average 3G download speeds of approximately 2,000 Kbps.

When breaking down regional results tied to a specific carrier, AT&T of the U.S. reportedly tied for third with Telstra, Telia and Softbank, with users of those networks reporting average download speeds of roughly 990 Kbps.*European T-Mobile users reported the fastest average speeds of 1,822 Kbps, while Canadian carriers Rogers and its partner Fido ranked second with an average download speed of about 1,330 Kbps.

However, Wired said that US participants account for more than 75 percent of zero-data results, presumably because those users were dropped from AT&T's 3G network during their speed tests. Among the U.S. areas that fared the worst were some major metropolitan areas, such as San Francisco, where 10 out of 30 participants reported 3G speeds that barely match that of EDGE.

"This pattern is linear with femtocell developer Dave Nowicki's explanation that in major metropolitan cities where the most iPhone users reside, 3G towers are getting overloaded, resulting in slowdowns or delivering EDGE-like performance as a result," the report noted.

The fact that European networks appear to be outperforming those in the United States is likely a result their maturity, the report added. While AT&T began rolling out its 3G network in the U.S. in 2004, some of Europe's 3G networks have been undergoing refinements since 2001.

Separately, a Swedish firm specializing in wireless test chambers measured the iPhone's reception and found its sensitivity to be completely normal, ruling out a large scale flaw in the device's hardware design. Combining this finding with those from its iPhone user study, Wired concludes that "it's highly unlikely that Apple is going to wave a magic wand and say, '3G problems, be gone,' with a software update."

Instead, it's believed that changes will need to be made on the part of 3G providers to optimize their networks "in terms of number of towers, how they're positioned and how much bandwidth each tower can handle."

Still, Apple has been proactive in making strides to improve the way iPhones manage a 3G signal with the recent release of iPhone Software 2.0.2.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=4532)

[Archipellago]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

[TenoBell]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

You sure are not here with a bias against Apple?

[physguy]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

An intelligent, well thought out, well supported post

[solipsism]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

This site disagrees with your personal findings so it must be a scandal perpetrated by Apple? There are many other sites that rate your bandwidth and they are all showing my speeds in the same range. In fact, this particular site shows my HSDPA speed as just under 5x EDGE, while the others show just over 5x EDGE. Does that mean that al the other sites are also part of Apple's diabolical plan?

Curiously, I don't recall reading a single post by someone who is complaining about rampant speed issues that have posted their EDGE and HSDPA speed comparisons.

[8CoreWhore]

I participated... it's VERY unscientific. It doesn't survey dropped calls or ANY call quality issues - ONLY download and upload speeds. It doesn't account for people who are moving - walking or driving, etc, etc. Personally, my own issues are related to being indoors and/or covering the bottom third of the phone with my hand. If I'm outside and I don't cover the bottom, the service is fine. I can get strong signal outside, walk inside and it'll drop to EDGE (some places, not most). The Wired survey doesn't even ask people what time of day the test was done.

[scowls]

I don't know if this is related, but my first edition iPhone has slowed to a crawl with the internet recently. Even low intensity internet activity (bloomberg application, stocks application, NY Times application) are painfully slow. It could be AT&T having growing pains with increased amount of phones accessing the internet. It could also be that the newest software update has slowed down my internet access.

In other words, the 3G experience may be better than the 3G users think if you compare it to what's going on with the non-3G phones....

[Cryptonome]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

The good news is that Apple is selling over the world the iPhone and in some countries where the 3G network have been available for more years than in the USA we have not issues.

I was testing the iPhone with other 3G phones, Nokia N95, E61i, Samsung i600, Motorola Q9 and the iPhone work as designed. I can get the same speed with the iPhone and with the Nokia N95.

The only issue with 2.0 firmware was the time the iPhone took to change from GPRS to 3G, solved with 2.02.

You have to take in mind that the number of cells available to carry on data are limited, and this is not an iPhone issue, is and operator/network issue.

Normally the 3G towers are connected with a 10 mbits circuit to the base network, that all the network available10 mbits in those cases. Many are connected with aereal links at 10 mbits, what you can expect, with bad wetther the link become broken every minute.

The real issue from Apple is that when its detect a 3G network inmediatly try to do the hand shake and create a connection. For this reason many see that other phones have more bars than the iPhone, if you open the web navigator on other phones you will see the same issues than in the iPhone.

So far so good in Spain we have not big issues with the 3G coverage, we have plenty of pico, micro and wide area antenas.

[justflybob]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

Speaking of clowns...uhem. Well at least you are receiving 5 bars on your "lulz" factor.

[PaulSorensen]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

1/ Apple said that there were some specific issues with 2% of 3G calls - not a general problem with connectivity.
2/ I have a friend with a Samsung 3G phone running windows mobile. And in a few cases I had almost no bars - and he had 3-4 bars. So I asked him to try accessing the internet - and he found that he could not. We've tried this experiment enough times for it to be quite clear that his phone is not reliably showing the quality of his signal.

My iPhone 3G has been better than I expected - although I had slightly lower expectations than many given my past experience with Cingular/AT&T.

[VinzD]

I was surprised to get no more than 500-600 Kbps in France, with the Orange France 3G+ network.

According to some users forum, seems that this is a fairly common grief amongst iPhone 3G Orange subscribers.

As a matter of fact, Orange France acknowledged today that it is llimitating the data rate to 384 Kbps.

In order to limit the growing dismail, Orange promised that from September 15th, they will up teh data rate up to 1 Mbps, which is still by the way well below the 14,4 Mbps theoritical rate the 3G+ (or HSPDA) could achieve on the French carrier network.

Maybe I should have stayed with the Edge iPhone.

PS : to the credit of Orange, they did not raise the subscription plans : same price for 3G and Edge.

[nagromme]

Crazy thought:

Maybe there are network issues, especially with AT&T's US 3G data rates, AND at the same time separate call-connection and 3G-detection issues that have a software fix coming from Apple.

I'm glad that there's no sign of any issues with the phone itself. The issues can be fixed externally. I hope (speaking as a US resident) that AT&T expands their 3G capacity/coverage sooner rather than later.

(Imagine if the first iPhone had been 3G, as so many said it simply HAD to be in order to succeed. It would have been bulkier and run on AT&T's 3G network from a year ago, before the improvements they've made. Imagine how bad THAT would have been.)

[sapporobaby]

You sure are not here with a bias against Apple?

Are you saying Apple didn't admit there was a problem with the phone? You sure you are not here with a bias for Apple?

[CREB]

Waaaaaaaaaay before the 3G iphone was even hinted at and rumors were floating around about how great 3G was going to be I was saying how AT&T's 3G sucks AND how AT&T guarantees none of its speed rates. Hmmmmmm.

[PaulSorensen]

Are you saying Apple didn't admit there was a problem with the phone? You sure you are not here with a bias for Apple?

Absolutely

[sapporobaby]

The good news is that Apple is selling over the world the iPhone and in some countries where the 3G network have been available for more years than in the USA we have not issues.


I was testing the iPhone with other 3G phones, Nokia N95, E61i, Samsung i600, Motorola Q9 and the iPhone work as designed. I can get the same speed with the iPhone and with the Nokia N95.

I get pretty much the same results. I am using an N82, E61, borrowed N78. Pretty spot on. The main problem I have is stability of the signal with the iPhone. It fluctuates quite a bit more than the other devices.

[quote]You have to take in mind that the number of cells available to carry on data are limited, and this is not an iPhone issue, is and operator/network issue.

Normally the 3G towers are connected with a 10 mbits circuit to the base network, that all the network available10 mbits in those cases. Many are connected with aereal links at 10 mbits, what you can expect, with bad wetther the link become broken every minute.

Pretty much true but here they connect with multiple E3's or even STM-1's. 10 mb/s is really nothing and I can not see why they would go that slow, but maybe that is the network build out where you are.

[TenoBell]

Are you saying Apple didn't admit there was a problem with the phone? You sure you are not here with a bias for Apple?

Yes Apple did admit their were about 2% of phones that suffered from 3G problems. I wouldn't doubt their are likely some other bugs to work out. So to be fair their may be problems on both ends. One poster in the UK reported his iPhone received no 3G while other phones could because O2 does not yet have HSDPA in his area.

Accusing Wired Magazine of being paid off by Apple because its results were favorable towards Apple without any evidence is far over the line of extremely biased conjecture.

[solipsism]

I was surprised to get no more than 500-600 Kbps in France, with the Orange France 3G+ network.
I'm in the US and I have heard so much about the US cellular market being so far behind "the rest of the World" or "behind Europe", yet this only seems to be true for a handful of countries. While many have skipped EDGE completely their 3G speeds don't seem to be very fast. Even some UK O2 customers were only getting HSDPA speeds slower than my EDGE speeds after the iPhone was released there last year.

I'm not saying that AT&T has its 3G act together, but the info we get doesn't seem to meld well many of the blanket statements about non-US carriers.

In order to limit the growing dismail, Orange promised that from September 15th, they will up teh data rate up to 1 Mbps, which is still by the way well below the 14,4 Mbps theoritical rate the 3G+ (or HSPDA) could achieve on the French carrier network.

Maybe I should have stayed with the Edge iPhone.
You are much better off with 3G even if it is only 384kbps. I'd suspect that is about 2x your EDGE speed and with less latency.

The HSDPA radios in the iPhone are only capable of 7.2Mbps, and I have not seen a WiFi speed that is faster than about 3.5Mbps, and WiFi has the least latency of the three. Are their any cellphones that are currently sporting a 14.4Mbps radio?

PS : to the credit of Orange, they did not raise the subscription plans : same price for 3G and Edge.
What is the data price? The iPhone's $20/month fee was well below the other unlimited/unlimited plans at the time which averaged around $40-$45/month. I had hoped that the mandatory data package would help keep it cheaper than other phones but I was wrong. Still, I don't think $30/month is too much.

[sapporobaby]

Yes Apple did admit their were about 2% of phones that suffered from 3G problems. I wouldn't doubt their are likely some other bugs to work out. So to be fair their may be problems on both ends. One poster in the UK reported his iPhone received no 3G while other phones could because O2 does not yet have HSDPA in his area.

Accusing Wired Magazine of being paid off by Apple because its results were favorable towards Apple without any evidence is far over the line of extremely biased conjecture.

I think that Apple/AT&T are in blame dispersal mode with a little Infineon sprinkled in for ever flavor. Apple would hate a recall and Infineon knows that the crap about their chips being in other phones and working ok is bull. While the chips might be working ok in other phones, these phones are not under the performance burden the iPhone is saddled with nor does it have to do as much. So the Infineon story is just that, a story. I still think Apple could have caught most of these problems with better testing. They took a chip, dropped it in and it was blessed ready to rock and roll.

Hopefully they can software fix it, but some of my Nokia and SE friends think that the chip is not functioning properly, not bad, just not functioning properly and that this could have been found out in testing. One thing for sure, Apple ain't saying, AT&T won't either. We will find out about the second person on the grassy knoll before either of these two spill the beans.

[solipsism]

Waaaaaaaaaay before the 3G iphone was even hinted at and rumors were floating around about how great 3G was going to be I was saying how AT&T's 3G sucks AND how AT&T guarantees none of its speed rates. Hmmmmmm.

1) I'm guessing you are exaggerating a bit because a 3G iPhone was hinted at before the original iPhone was even showcased. I think Kevin Rose even predicted an CDMA/EV-DO iPhone. If you were saying it back then, or even 6 months ago you have been correct as AT&T didn't have much of a setup. From my experience I'd say their network is pretty decent (~1Mbps), but could be a lot better. I expect that it will continue to get better.

2) Does any cellular carrier guarantee their bandwidth speeds? I don't see how they could.

PS: Why isn't anyone posting their speeds?

[hzc]

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

Maybe you should try getting your iPhone replaced; it should still be under warranty. It could just be a lemon ... and not an Apple :smokey:

I have 5 full bars just about all the time with Rogers, except when I'm travelling from one major city to another in which case I'm somewhere out in the boonies, then I have EDGE. :lol:

[teckstud]

Are you saying Apple didn't admit there was a problem with the phone? You sure you are not here with a bias for Apple?

I know- right? Watch out you'll be attacked by ABster2core next!:lol:
And didn't Apple just post an update to fix iPhone 3G connection problems? 2.0.2????:no:

[PaulSorensen]

PS: Why isn't anyone posting their speeds?
When I did the test that for the wired survey I got 845K/s download and nearly 200K/s upload for 3G (I don't remember the exact number).

It sounds like the dutch and germans are having a lot more fun - but I'm happy enough for the moment.

[spinner903]

I've got a good friend at Apple who works on the iPhone wireless hardware and he was telling me that it's a network issue and not an Apple issue. There are probably a combination of issues that aren't helping, but my guess is that Apple's hardware is pretty standard stuff when it comes to 3G.

[TenoBell]

I think that Apple/AT&T are in blame dispersal mode with a little Infineon sprinkled in for ever flavor. Apple would hate a recall and Infineon knows that the crap about their chips being in other phones and working ok is bull. While the chips might be working ok in other phones, these phones are not under the performance burden the iPhone is saddled with nor does it have to do as much. So the Infineon story is just that, a story. I still think Apple could have caught most of these problems with better testing. They took a chip, dropped it in and it was blessed ready to rock and roll.

I haven't really heard Apple blame anyone. They haven't said much of anything about the issue or its potential causes.

As far as the Infineon chip. That was only ever unspeculated rumor with no evidence to back it up. So far tests conducted on the iPhone have shown no results that point towards the wireless chip to being any problem.

[teckstud]

Yes Apple did admit their were about 2% of phones that suffered from 3G problems. I wouldn't doubt their are likely some other bugs to work out. So to be fair their may be problems on both ends. One poster in the UK reported his iPhone received no 3G while other phones could because O2 does not yet have HSDPA in his area.

Accusing Wired Magazine of being paid off by Apple because its results were favorable towards Apple without any evidence is far over the line of extremely biased conjecture.

Where is 2% mentioned in this thread?
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/20/apple_iphone_2_0_2_update_targets_3g_issues.html

[TenoBell]

1) PS: Why isn't anyone posting their speeds?

I pretty much only use EDGE and WiFi. There have been 3G numbers posted from NYC.

[VinzD]

What is the data price? The iPhone's $20/month fee was well below the other unlimited/unlimited plans at the time which averaged around $40-$45/month. I had hoped that the mandatory data package would help keep it cheaper than other phones but I was wrong. Still, I don't think $30/month is too much.

I have a 49 € including taxes (about 72 $) plan, which is the cheapest iPhone specific plan and includes :

- Unlimited data and visual voicemail,
- 50 SMS
- 10 hour of Orange Wifi hotspot
- 120 min + 120 mins evening and week-ends for outgoing calls (incoming phone calls are free and unlimited).

[TenoBell]

Where is 2% mentioned in this thread?
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/20/apple_iphone_2_0_2_update_targets_3g_issues.html

Are you saying because Apple Insider didn't write it in a story, that means Apple never said it?

[teckstud]

Remember the first Edge iPhone's reception problems? Apple blamed AT&T- AT&T blamed Apple. Then it turned out that the Edge iPhone itself was not very good in its speaker/mike deparment. We shall see who is to blame this time- much too early now and too much reputation at stake.

[teckstud]

Are you saying because Apple Insider didn't write it in a story, that means Apple never said it?
Well if it was as small as YOu claim - I believe it would be mentioned. So why not post/back up your source rather than give sarcastic answers?

[TenoBell]

We are working on some bugs which affect around 2% of the iPhones shipped, and hope to have a software update soon.

Steve ( http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/18/iphone-3g-connectivity-affecting-2-of-customers-software-fix-soon/)

[sapporobaby]

I have a 49 € including taxes (about 72 $) plan, which is the cheapest iPhone specific plan and includes :

- Unlimited data and visual voicemail,
- 50 SMS
- 10 hour of Orange Wifi hotspot
- 120 min + 120 mins evening and week-ends for outgoing calls (incoming phone calls are free and unlimited).

YIPES !!

I get 500 mins voice, 500 SMS, unlimited data ( no caps) guaranteed data rate of 1 mb/s all for €51 Euro. Finland is wired with wifi all over but for the most part, I use 3G for everything unless I want to use VoIP.

[dcdttu]

I can say that the network plays a role in some of the issues, but when my iPhone struggles to keep a 3G signal and is often on EDGE right next to my friends' Samsung and Nokia phones which are on full 3G the entire time, something is definitely wrong with the my phone.

Network speeds aside, I just want my phone to get a 3G signal! I'm only on 3G 20% of the time in Austin, TX. My friends with non-iPhones are on 3G almost 100% of the time.... That's not a network issue. That's a phone issue.

[TenoBell]

Network speeds aside, I just want my phone to get a 3G signal! I'm only on 3G 20% of the time in Austin, TX. My friends with non-iPhones are on 3G almost 100% of the time.... That's not a network issue. That's a phone issue.

It could be the phone but not necessarily.

There are different types of UMTS 3G. Its possible the type those other phones use has good coverage and the type the iPhone uses has poor coverage.

[Rot'nApple]

Well if it was as small as YOu claim - I believe it would be mentioned. So why not post/back up your source rather than give sarcastic answers?

Here you go...

From Businessweek Online

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2008/tc20080813_430402.htm


From a purported response from Steve Jobs to an e-mail sent to him about 3G issues...

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/18/iphone-3g-connectivity-affecting-2-of-customers-software-fix-soon/


and from AppleInsider themselves...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/19/steve_jobs_vows_iphone_app_crash_fix_for_september .html

[Rot'nApple]

I can say that the network plays a role in some of the issues, but when my iPhone struggles to keep a 3G signal and is often on EDGE right next to my friends' Samsung and Nokia phones which are on full 3G the entire time, something is definitely wrong with the my phone.

Network speeds aside, I just want my phone to get a 3G signal! I'm only on 3G 20% of the time in Austin, TX. My friends with non-iPhones are on 3G almost 100% of the time.... That's not a network issue. That's a phone issue.


Are all of you using the same carrier and thus the same network? If not, just curious what network your friends have for the better 3G for future reference. - thanks

[Mystigo]

I work about 1000 feet from a tower which I think must be AT&T's. When I point the back of my phone at it, I get 4 bars of 3G goodness (5 if I am in line of sight). When I point the side of my phone at it I get 2 bars. But no matter which way I orient the phone I get approx. 1750 Kbps download and 122 Kbps upload. Edge is much slower. I get 212 and 48 Kbps respectively.

I've seen other people bragging about the 1000 Kbps they get out of their brand x 3G phones. If that is the gold standard then at least I am doing alright.

I am convinced based on the reading I have done that the iPhone hardware is not the problem. People have put the phone in isolating test equipment and seen little difference between the iPhone and other phone models as far as signal levels go. I am much more inclined to blame dropped calls on poor 3G to Edge transition issues, and poor data performance on signal overloading and generally weak network coverage.

About the only thing Apple can do is step on Infineon (or possibly their own engineers) and get the 3G to Edge transition problems fixed. The rest is up to AT&T to get their coverage more complete and to increase the data capacity of their existing towers in metro areas.

For what it's worth I am in the South East and somewhat doubtful that I am competing for bandwidth with many other users. That's probably why my data rates are particularly good.

[mdriftmeyer]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

Have you ever worked in the backbone for AT&T Wireless, ala Cingular, ala AT&T?

It's a problem for them Both. Both that Apple had to help them build the Network and both that AT&T still carries that name knowing damn well the technical expertise it once owned is long gone.

[mdriftmeyer]

I can say that the network plays a role in some of the issues, but when my iPhone struggles to keep a 3G signal and is often on EDGE right next to my friends' Samsung and Nokia phones which are on full 3G the entire time, something is definitely wrong with the my phone.

Network speeds aside, I just want my phone to get a 3G signal! I'm only on 3G 20% of the time in Austin, TX. My friends with non-iPhones are on 3G almost 100% of the time.... That's not a network issue. That's a phone issue.

Have you guys ruled out case interferences on different phones?

I see it as both a Network Design flaw and iPhone software problem.

[SpamSandwich]

Well, well, well... this little Wired experiment should go a long way toward combatting that lawsuit against Apple. :D

[Rot'nApple]

When breaking down regional results tied to a specific carrier, AT&T of the U.S. reportedly tied for third with Telstra, Telia and Softbank, with users of those networks reporting average download speeds of roughly 990 Kbps.*European T-Mobile users reported the fastest average speeds of 1,822 Kbps, while Canadian carriers Rogers and its partner Fido ranked second with an average download speed of about 1,330 Kbps.

However, Wired said that US participants account for more than 75 percent of zero-data results, presumably because those users were dropped from AT&T's 3G network during their speed tests. Among the U.S. areas that fared the worst were some major metropolitan areas, such as San Francisco, where 10 out of 30 participants reported 3G speeds that barely match that of EDGE.

The fact that European networks appear to be outperforming those in the United States is likely a result their maturity, the report added. While AT&T began rolling out its 3G network in the U.S. in 2004, some of Europe's 3G networks have been undergoing refinements since 2001.

From a Wired online article back in May 2008, "The network offers theoretical speeds of 1.4 Mbps down and 800Kbps up, which AT&T claims "will be as speedy as logging onto the high speed Internet service that many consumers enjoy at home."

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/05/att-confirms-hi.html

and

From ARS Technica back in May 2008...

"AT&T announced yesterday that it plans to roll out its High Speed Uplink Packet Access (HSUPA) in six more US markets by the end of June, completing its deployment of HSPA. Once the rollout is complete, the company says that the beefed-up 3G service will offer uplink speeds of between 500 and 800Kbps, which will complement the roughly 1.4Mbps downlink already offered through AT&T. AT&T's timing doesn't seem to be a coincidence, as it appears to coincide with the widely-expected launch of Apple's rumored 3G iPhone."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080522-just-in-time-for-apple-att-wrapping-up-3g-network-upgrade.html


Does any one think, after reading these articles, did the AT&T upgrade before the iPhone 3G launch work as advertised or did AT&T fall below expectations and were caught with their pants down? What do you think? :???:

[heffeque]

Well... just wanted to say that testmyiphone isn't the best place to test speeds. It lets you test the broadband speed with a normal computer (it detects it as non-iphone) and... I have a 6 Mbps connection that actually downloads at 5.7-5.8 Mbps and doing the test there it says that my connection goes 1.9 Mbps, not even close to what it really is.

[TenoBell]

Blackberry Bold ( http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2008/08/20/citigroup-tests-likes-rims-bold-but-no-game-changer/)

“We had a few occasional 3G signal dropping troubles at some locations especially on high-rises building streets & on our 34th floor (EDGE picked up immediately but slower internet speeds),” writes Suva. He thinks RiM have delayed introducing the Bold because they want to iron out the 3G kinks with a software patch.

[PaulSorensen]

Where is 2% mentioned in this thread?
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/20/apple_iphone_2_0_2_update_targets_3g_issues.html

The 2% was mentioned by one of the financial analysts who was trying to blame the Infineon chipset. By the way, the 2% figure was not a percentage of defective iPhones - it was a percentage of dropped calls.

[solipsism]

Well... just wanted to say that testmyiphone isn't the best place to test speeds. It lets you test the broadband speed with a normal computer (it detects it as non-iphone) and... I have a 6 Mbps connection that actually downloads at 5.7-5.8 Mbps and doing the test there it says that my connection goes 1.9 Mbps, not even close to what it really is.
If you are in Spain and the site is hosted in the US there is plenty of room for speed and latency to affect results. I don't think that it does (or can) determine the actual throughput—and only the throughput—from the device to the hop. But you do have a point; whatever speed we are seeing is technically faster before we account for the other aspects that affect transmission speeds.

[heffeque]

Well... I do get really good throughput with a lot of American companies, but then again... they probably have mirror-servers planted in Europe (like for example the akamai service from Apple Trailers, etc) :-/

[solipsism]

Blackberry Bold ( http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2008/08/20/citigroup-tests-likes-rims-bold-but-no-game-changer/)

“We had a few occasional 3G signal dropping troubles at some locations especially on high-rises building streets & on our 34th floor (EDGE picked up immediately but slower internet speeds),” writes Suva. He thinks RiM have delayed introducing the Bold because they want to iron out the 3G kinks with a software patch.

I'm looking for the Thunder come Oct. 13th. I will be testing it against the iPhone which will have v2.1 by then, and possibly v2.1.1.

[hillstones]

I can say that the network plays a role in some of the issues, but when my iPhone struggles to keep a 3G signal and is often on EDGE right next to my friends' Samsung and Nokia phones which are on full 3G the entire time, something is definitely wrong with the my phone.

Network speeds aside, I just want my phone to get a 3G signal! I'm only on 3G 20% of the time in Austin, TX. My friends with non-iPhones are on 3G almost 100% of the time.... That's not a network issue. That's a phone issue.

Are your friends' phones also on AT&T's network? I doubt it. Doesn't Sprint push the Samsung and Nokia phone? If your friends are on a different network, then the network is most likely to blame. I cannot get a signal on Sprint at my home in So CA, but I get a full signal with AT&T.

The other countries work well because they generally have one network, not many trying to fight for airspace. Sprint, AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, etc...too much interference going on in the U.S.

[teckstud]

Here you go...

From Businessweek Online

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2008/tc20080813_430402.htm


From a purported response from Steve Jobs to an e-mail sent to him about 3G issues...

http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/18/iphone-3g-connectivity-affecting-2-of-customers-software-fix-soon/


and from AppleInsider themselves...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/19/steve_jobs_vows_iphone_app_crash_fix_for_september .html

Where do I begin - your 3rd link nowhere mentions 2%.
2.0.2 on 8/18/08 was supposed to fix this and it's apparently failed according to this article.
The update in Sept is to fix App crashes and stability- not 3G issues. Why should that Dude not be upset and blame Apple instead of AT&T if Apple has admitted the software was the problem prior to the 18th? That's a negative bias on his part?

[Mooch]

I participated... it's VERY unscientific. It doesn't survey dropped calls or ANY call quality issues - ONLY download and upload speeds. It doesn't account for people who are moving - walking or driving, etc, etc. Personally, my own issues are related to being indoors and/or covering the bottom third of the phone with my hand. If I'm outside and I don't cover the bottom, the service is fine. I can get strong signal outside, walk inside and it'll drop to EDGE (some places, not most). The Wired survey doesn't even ask people what time of day the test was done.
Time of day, walking vs driving, indoors vs outdoors...none of that matters if you have a large enough sample size. Their test is adequate to give an overall measure of performance.

[teckstud]

The 2% was mentioned by one of the financial analysts who was trying to blame the Infineon chipset. By the way, the 2% figure was not a percentage of defective iPhones - it was a percentage of dropped calls.

Thank you for clarifying- that makes much more sense than what the other guy wrote.

[melgross]

I participated... it's VERY unscientific. It doesn't survey dropped calls or ANY call quality issues - ONLY download and upload speeds. It doesn't account for people who are moving - walking or driving, etc, etc. Personally, my own issues are related to being indoors and/or covering the bottom third of the phone with my hand. If I'm outside and I don't cover the bottom, the service is fine. I can get strong signal outside, walk inside and it'll drop to EDGE (some places, not most). The Wired survey doesn't even ask people what time of day the test was done.

You are very unscientific.

This study was intended to only test upload and download speeds.

[TenoBell]

The 2% was mentioned by one of the financial analysts who was trying to blame the Infineon chipset. By the way, the 2% figure was not a percentage of defective iPhones - it was a percentage of dropped calls.

The letter on Macrumors from Steve Jobs specifically stated their were bugs that effected 2% of phones, and an update was coming soon.

[melgross]

The main problem I have is stability of the signal with the iPhone. It fluctuates quite a bit more than the other devices.

That's exactly what my problem is, if you've read any of my comments on this.

This article actually points out good reasons why it should fluctuate in metropolitan areas, at least here in the US, where the system is newer. If a 3G unit is overloaded, the signal can suddenly drop to Edge. When one or more calls finish, it could pop back to 3G.

AT&T did say that they are continuing to add towers, even where there is coverage. They also said that they are increasing the power on their towers. I have no idea how long that will take.

When it works well, the speeds are close enough to the Tv ads so that it doesn't really matter.

But when it's bad, it's real bad.

Mostly, as of late, where I live, it's gotten much better.

But today I was in my daughter's school working on auditions for one of the plays they do, and in the basement, I did get a working 3G signal, where someone with Verison didn't.

It's just a matter of exactly where a tower is.

[TenoBell]

Where do I begin - your 3rd link nowhere mentions 2%.
2.0.2 on 8/18/08 was supposed to fix this and it's apparently failed according to this article.
The update in Sept is to fix App crashes and stability- not 3G issues. Why should that Dude not be upset and blame Apple instead of AT&T if Apple has admitted the software was the problem prior to the 18th? That's a negative bias on his part?

We don't really know what 2.0.2 did or did not fix because Apple has never specifically said what the problem is or what is required to fix it.

We don't really know what 2.1 will fix. I'm sure Apple will use every update to deal with as many bugs as possible.

[melgross]

Are you saying Apple didn't admit there was a problem with the phone? You sure you are not here with a bias for Apple?

As nagromme said, this could be a dual issue.

1. A small percentage of phones with some unspecified reception problems.

2. Network problems as Wired is reporting.

If some people have the ill functioning phones, AND are in areas where the network isn't up to par, they would be having real problems.

But it's very possible that people with just one of those problems aren't having a serious problem, just minor annoyances.

It could be very possible that the low sensitivity of some phones would be a constant, but that the network overloads on the 3G system would be erratic.

Unless something in the phone is actually defective (always possible of course), the sensitivity should be pretty much constant. I can see the 3G tower dropping in and out as load varies up to, and beyond, design specs.

We've seen this happen years ago when AT&T went to the new digital switching systems. The old systems failed gracefully, getting slower and slower until they stopped. But digital systems have a hard stop. They work well until their limit is reached, then poof. The only way to prevent that is to up the capacity.

It's like planning a highway. By the time it's built, the capacity is already too small.

[melgross]

From a Wired online article back in May 2008, "The network offers theoretical speeds of 1.4 Mbps down and 800Kbps up, which AT&T claims "will be as speedy as logging onto the high speed Internet service that many consumers enjoy at home."

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/05/att-confirms-hi.html

and

From ARS Technica back in May 2008...

"AT&T announced yesterday that it plans to roll out its High Speed Uplink Packet Access (HSUPA) in six more US markets by the end of June, completing its deployment of HSPA. Once the rollout is complete, the company says that the beefed-up 3G service will offer uplink speeds of between 500 and 800Kbps, which will complement the roughly 1.4Mbps downlink already offered through AT&T. AT&T's timing doesn't seem to be a coincidence, as it appears to coincide with the widely-expected launch of Apple's rumored 3G iPhone."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080522-just-in-time-for-apple-att-wrapping-up-3g-network-upgrade.html


Does any one think, after reading these articles, did the AT&T upgrade before the iPhone 3G launch work as advertised or did AT&T fall below expectations and were caught with their pants down? What do you think? :???:

I think that they underestimated the demand for the phone, just as Apple is wont to do, and have too little capacity yet.

I also feel sure that this will be rectified. It's an expensive proposition, but it will get done.

[meatpieandtatters]

Bullsh!t

wonder how much Apple paid these clowns to say this..?

1/ Apple have already said there is a problem with 3g on the iPhone.

2/ I can have 2 different handsets on the same network, 5 yards apart. The iPhone will have no service and the other one will have 3 or 4 bars.!!

How stupid do they think we are?

reception overall, regardless of protocol used is substandard on iPhone in my experience.

Apple... head in the sand much??

If you had the least bit of awareness of telecom infrastructure you'd realize where the problems lay. AT&T has leveraged the Apple iPhone to buttress their crap service with a very cool and quite useful tool. Your grousing is just more techno-ignorance parading around as opinion.

[nvidia2008]

I'm sorry but I have to QFT my own post in another thread. QFT !!!

.. At some point Apple has to play ball with the network providers. But has this partnership been beneficial? What are the challenges? Quite a few, as we have seen, though no doubt for both sides lots of sales and cash and interest. Don't get me wrong, the iPhone 3G and the network service has so much goodness and potential. But also, there are pitfalls, such as the 3G class action, complaints, and so on.

Apple's success is built on the simplicity of OS X and OS X-like Windows apps. Hardware is designed to look good, work well, and run OS X smoothly. The iPhone would not be possible without their intelligent "OS X mobile" deployment (forgive the incorrect terminology).

The iTunes Store would not be the top online digital download service if iTunes and Quicktime for Mac (part of OS X) and Windows (OS X-like for Windows) wasn't as easy and effective as it is.

Apple would certainly like to have much more control over the quality and service expectation, and ease of use of the mobile network. It can do this three ways:

1. Accept "fate" and just take a huge shaft up the a** as needed for cash/ service from the mobile network providers, as is the current case.

2. Work closely with mobile network providers to get things smoother. Certainly Apple is doing this, but mostly in the USA. I mean, we know what happened in the UK, it was number 1 above.

3. MVNO. There. I've said it.

What if Apple's "4th Leg" becomes them being some sort of network provider? Not DSL, Not WiFi, but say 3.5G or 4G or 5G?

With an MVNO the global rollout will be difficult initially but it might very well guarantee a much smoother Apple Mobile Products launches.

For example, Apple is selling the iPhone 3G everywhere in the world. Then in 2009, it obviously *has* to sell mobile products around the world.

It has tried to leverage the existing mobile providers. This is like hiring the local militia or mercenaries when invading a country. In the long run, is this effective?

Apple laying the groundwork globally as an MVNO is like building forward bases when invading a country. There is a foundation to work on more under control by Apple themselves.

Remember the MVNO model has huge popularity and success around the world, and the best part is that you're not exactly going in yourself to license the spectrum in a country.

Of course though, at the end of the day, the business and cash strategy of which part of 1, 2, and 3 I listed above, is what Apple wants to do. The options are there, and we'll see what choices they make.

[nvidia2008]

...AT&T has leveraged the Apple iPhone to buttress their crap service with a very cool and quite useful tool. Your grousing is just more techno-ignorance parading around as opinion.

Brilliant point. We can also replace AT&T with similar crappy network providers around the world, I leave it to those in other countries to tell us which ones.

[nvidia2008]

(off topic, deleted by myself :))

[sf_dude]

this study proves nothing.
I have an ATT 3G Express Card and 3G iPhone and here is what I see (same location, same time)-
Express Card 5 bars = iPhone 3 bars
Express Card 3 bars = iPhone 1 bar
Express Card 2 bars = iPhone switches to EDGE

so clearly, the problem is related to the iPhone.

[solipsism]

this study proves nothing.
I have an ATT 3G Express Card and 3G iPhone and here is what I see (same location, same time)-
so clearly, the problem is related to the iPhone.
I have an iPhone and Seirra Wireless 3G USB modem from AT&T and get the same results. Doesn't matter what phone I use i get the same results. Those cards have more powerful larger antennas than cellphones so comparisons should be done between iPhone to iPhone or iPhone to other cellphones.

[iPeon]

this study proves nothing.
I have an ATT 3G Express Card and 3G iPhone and here is what I see (same location, same time)-
Express Card 5 bars = iPhone 3 bars
Express Card 3 bars = iPhone 1 bar
Express Card 2 bars = iPhone switches to EDGE

so clearly, the problem is related to the iPhone.

Interesting. What I'm seeing from your data is this: iPhone having a weaker antenna.

Edit: Solipsim beat me to it.

[ciparis]

This study is unfortunately wrong.

In my repeated testing, the iPhone 3G cannot sustain a network connection under identical conditions and location to the Nokia N95-3. I'm mostly concerned with uploads here, and the device simply cannot stream data for more than 30 seconds, where the N95-3 can go for literally hours.

[sf_dude]

Interesting. What I'm seeing from your data is this: iPhone having a weaker antenna.

A weaker 3G antenna. Why would the 3g antenna in iPhone be weaker than EDGE antenna?

[PaulSorensen]

The letter on Macrumors from Steve Jobs specifically stated their were bugs that effected 2% of phones, and an update was coming soon.

My post was talking about the original report of the problem by an analyst from nomura. Quote from Reuters: "The problem affects 2 percent to 3 percent of iPhone traffic, BusinessWeek said, citing two "well-placed" sources."

I don't really care which is right - either way the point is that it was an isolated problem. Not the huge problem that a lot of people are perceiving.

[Rot'nApple]

Where do I begin - your 3rd link nowhere mentions 2%.
2.0.2 on 8/18/08 was supposed to fix this and it's apparently failed according to this article.
The update in Sept is to fix App crashes and stability- not 3G issues. Why should that Dude not be upset and blame Apple instead of AT&T if Apple has admitted the software was the problem prior to the 18th? That's a negative bias on his part?

Where do I begin...

Your link, http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...3g_issues.html which started the posts that led to mine, may not have had "2%" in that one story, this is true. However, it is an article about purported problems with the iPhone that subsequent articles derived from and it is there in one article, a reply from Steve himself, in response to an e-mail that Steve gave the 2% number and though my third link is of AppleInsiders story about Steve Job's response to an e-mail regarding the iPhone "issues", you have to go up to the second link to a MacRumors article which prints Steve's response as and is where one gets the magical percentage...

"We are working on some bugs which affect around 2% of the iPhones shipped, and hope to have a software update soon.

Steve"

Steve's reply was in regards to an e-mail to him "about the current iPhone 3G connectivity issues that have been widely reported."

So the 2% is not some out of the blue number.

Anyway, you have to do a Kevin Bacon 6 degrees of separation kind of thing with my third link relating to the second link to get to the 2% but it is there.

If the 2.0.2 update failed to fix 3G issues as your post says, then I have a feeling Septembers software update will not be just about App crashes and stability.

With regards to blaming Apple rather than AT&T, I never implied that the dude couldn't, however, if it is a software issue, why does it not effect all iPhones versus a connectivity problem that can effect users where ever they may be as more and more smart phones get purchased and the carriers network, whoever that carrier may be, can't handle the increase usage and the bottlenecks effects end user experience on their iPhone , that is all I'm saying...?

[iPeon]

A weaker 3G antenna. Why would the 3g antenna in iPhone be weaker than EDGE antenna?

I didn't say a weaker 3G antenna, I said a weaker antenna. Based upon your data, if you're getting 5 bars with your Express Card and only 3 bars on the iPhone at same location, all you are saying is that the iPhone isn't picking up the signal at the same capacity as the Express Card. Why does the iPhone have less reception? That's the question you should be asking.

It makes sense that it would have less reception because it's a smaller device, has less power and has a smaller antenna. After all, you can't compare the power of a laptop with the power of a cell phone.

[Biomusicologist]

AT&T has leveraged the Apple iPhone to buttress their crap service with a very cool and quite useful tool.

AT&T is more than just crap service. Let's not forget that they also are quite happy to give your private information away to the fascist spy network running amok in the US at the moment.

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/06/spy_room

...and taking your money and using it to throw private parties for the palms that were greased by their slimy lobbyists to thank them for granting them "immunity" (instead of spending it on upgrading their crappy service):

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/25/at_t_throws_party_to_support

Crap service. Warrantless wiretapping. AT$T can give you all that and more.

I'd love to own an iPhone. Really I would. But at least Sprint's service if pretty reliable (in my neck of the woods) and they refused to provide any info to the fascists without a warrant.

Please Apple, get your phones out to some other US providers....please.

[Biomusicologist]

Come to think of it....maybe that's the problem with AT$T's service.

You get 5 bars and full 3G data rates only if a warrentless wiretap is being conducted on you by the NSA. After all, AT$T and the NSA do have their priorites.... ;-)

[sapporobaby]

My post was talking about the original report of the problem by an analyst from nomura. Quote from Reuters: "The problem affects 2 percent to 3 percent of iPhone traffic, BusinessWeek said, citing two "well-placed" sources."

I don't really care which is right - either way the point is that it was an isolated problem. Not the huge problem that a lot of people are perceiving.

This is the typical pervasive "release and fix" attitude that runs through the industry. Apple didn't get 2% of my money. They got all of it. The problems with the iPhone could have been isolated via better testing. Apple and its "veil of secrecy" screwed itself by not doing a live test with production phones and production software extensively. Great that they did testing with non-production devices and software. This is the result.

Are these well placed sources sitting next to Job's desk?

[sapporobaby]

I didn't say a weaker 3G antenna, I said a weaker antenna. Based upon your data, if you're getting 5 bars with your Express Card and only 3 bars on the iPhone at same location, all you are saying is that the iPhone isn't picking up the signal at the same capacity as the Express Card. Why does the iPhone have less reception? That's the question you should be asking.

It makes sense that it would have less reception because it's a smaller device, has less power and has a smaller antenna. After all, you can't compare the power of a laptop with the power of a cell phone.

The antenna that EDGE uses is different than that 3G uses. No comparison. Different technologies. The comparison based on antennas is moot.

[iPeon]

The antenna that EDGE uses is different than that 3G uses. No comparison. Different technologies. The comparison based on antennas is moot.

Who's comparing EDGE antennas to 3G antennas?

[sapporobaby]

Who's comparing EDGE antennas to 3G antennas?

I was referring to post #67. Sorry for the confusion.

[nvidia2008]

AT&T is more than just crap service. Let's not forget that they also are quite happy to give your private information away to the fascist spy network running amok in the US at the moment.

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/06/spy_room

...and taking your money and using it to throw private parties for the palms that were greased by their slimy lobbyists to thank them for granting them "immunity" (instead of spending it on upgrading their crappy service):

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/25/at_t_throws_party_to_support

Crap service. Warrantless wiretapping. AT$T can give you all that and more.

I'd love to own an iPhone. Really I would. But at least Sprint's service if pretty reliable (in my neck of the woods) and they refused to provide any info to the fascists without a warrant.

Please Apple, get your phones out to some other US providers....please.

I got your iPhone 3G right here baby :) ... Full Unlocked. Screw AT&T. It will be on eBay in the next few days. It be from Singapore, where locking is not allowed by the governement. I'm here in Singapore for a few days.

For anyones info, the 2.0.2 software update brings the modem firmware to 2.0+ instead of 1.+ like the 2.0 original software.

If this makes any sense...

[nvidia2008]

This locking nonsense has to end. It creates extreme inefficiency in the global economy which results in less profits for the companies anyway. Who has the fattest profit margis right now? (Besides Apple) The "grey" market of iPhone 3Gs. Of course, there's big marketing and sales value for the company that carries the iPhone 3G. But... in the long run... ??? I'm not sure...

AT&T and others should compete and focus on improving service and staff knowledge. Rather than plough that money into "greasing" up to Apple, being the "only source" and so on.

In the US for example, IMHO, if the other networks cared about 3G service, then they'd improve it to compete with the iPhone 3G. And have competing devices with a proper full browser for Internet.

That's what I'd do if I were Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile. I'd go straight to Symbian and say, give me a frickin' full-browser, no nonsense, I want to kick Safari iPhone's butt right now. Hell, make it have Flash, AVI support...

[solipsism]

In the US for example, IMHO, if the other networks cared about 3G service, then they'd improve it to compete with the iPhone 3G. And have competing devices with a proper full browser for Internet.

That's what I'd do if I were Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile. I'd go straight to Symbian and say, give me a frickin' full-browser, no nonsense, I want to kick Safari iPhone's butt right now. Hell, make it have Flash, AVI support...
Nokia and Mozilla are porting FF to Qt, like WebKit is, so that will a powerful addition there. And RiM is introducing the BB Thunder in 6 weeks with WebKit which will be sold on Verizon only, at first.

I agree with the locking thing. i understand it for Apple's first attempt at a mobile and with the profit sharing they had going on, but now all that is over with; you have to sign up for a plan to get the device, so I see no reason Apple should care as much as they seem to do about making the unlocking so difficult on the 3G's baseband. But they are doing more than giving lip service to the carriers so I'm apparently missing something.

How much USD is that unlocked iPhone costing?

[melgross]

This locking nonsense has to end. It creates extreme inefficiency in the global economy which results in less profits for the companies anyway. Who has the fattest profit margis right now? (Besides Apple) The "grey" market of iPhone 3Gs. Of course, there's big marketing and sales value for the company that carries the iPhone 3G. But... in the long run... ??? I'm not sure...

AT&T and others should compete and focus on improving service and staff knowledge. Rather than plough that money into "greasing" up to Apple, being the "only source" and so on.

In the US for example, IMHO, if the other networks cared about 3G service, then they'd improve it to compete with the iPhone 3G. And have competing devices with a proper full browser for Internet.

That's what I'd do if I were Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile. I'd go straight to Symbian and say, give me a frickin' full-browser, no nonsense, I want to kick Safari iPhone's butt right now. Hell, make it have Flash, AVI support...

I love business talk from people who have never run a business.

[nvidia2008]

In Singapore through eBay.com.sg or through other sources, the iPhone 3G is going from about SGD 1,300 to SGD 1,600 for the 16GB... So that puts it around USD 1,000...

My listing on eBay's pricing structure will be different, because it will be through eBay UK for the UK and Europe peoples.

The thing is I was able to personally inspect the phone, receipt, IMEI, serial and so on before ponying up the cash. And it was slightly lower than those average prices I listed.

I think phones out of Singapore will hit the international grey market soon because it is fully unlocked. So given cost and other constraints out of Belgium, Italy, given Hong Kong and Singapore as shipping hubs, these will probably big grey market/ export to tourists exporters.

Pricing may be steady at around USD 700 to USD 1200 globally for a properly fully-unlocked phone.

There are a lot of scammers listing on eBay as "Unlocked" even though that is with a unstable/incomplete/risky SIM-hack solution.

[nvidia2008]

FYI The Singapore iPhone 3G only went on sale on Aug 24. They did it differently (SingTel), the exclusive Telco. Everything is appointment-based. So no interminable queues (well, some queuing, but you have to book an appointment online first, maybe even *pay a deposit* just for the appointment)... There may be periods of those without appointments being able to queue up...

[flemsha]

I do like all of the, "I have tested and my results contradict...", you have tested your one iphone on one network, they have tested 2600 iphones on many networks, which is the more powered study?

Also sapporobaby the test and fix attitude that is pervasive is there for one reason alone, you can't know what every problem is going to be no matter how much you do smaller scale tests. Why do you think we have stage 4 drug trials (post-marketing studies), because you don't know all the side effects no matter how many pre-marketing trials you run.

If your argument is "every phone should have been tested in every environment prior to release", then there are parts that go through that, but they tend to go into very expensive things (like you know, aircraft, and even they have post-marketing analysis (usually when one crashes or comes near to it)).

Sorry but in consumer electronics because of the fact that things need to have a control on costs and release time those who adopt early will always be coming across bugs that are missed in the pre-release testing. You want the product when it is perfect, you gotta wait until it is not bleeding edge, because while it is they will still be finding kinks that no amount of pre-market testing was ever going to find.

[sapporobaby]

Also sapporobaby the test and fix attitude that is pervasive is there for one reason alone, you can't know what every problem is going to be no matter how much you do smaller scale tests. Why do you think we have stage 4 drug trials (post-marketing studies), because you don't know all the side effects no matter how many pre-marketing trials you run.

If your argument is "every phone should have been tested in every environment prior to release", then there are parts that go through that, but they tend to go into very expensive things (like you know, aircraft, and even they have post-marketing analysis (usually when one crashes or comes near to it)).


A phone is not a drug being introduced into your body. Surely you can see the difference. The fact is, Apple did not do a substantial real-world test with the iPhone. What don't you get about this? They did static, pre-production testing on limited (most likely AT&T) networks with an untested chip and then passed this off as ready for the world. Obviously they were wrong. Consumer complaints verify my assertions. Sooooo your "drug" argument is comparison is moot.

[flemsha]

A phone is not a drug being introduced into your body. Surely you can see the difference. The fact is, Apple did not do a substantial real-world test with the iPhone. What don't you get about this? They did static, pre-production testing on limited (most likely AT&T) networks with an untested chip and then passed this off as ready for the world. Obviously they were wrong. Consumer complaints verify my assertions. Sooooo your "drug" argument is comparison is moot.

To be sure I can, in fact surely safety of a drug ranks more highly than whether you can get your facebook details delivered at 3G speeds. The analogy still stands however, until you release something onto the open market you can't find all the problems with something.

Do you have evidence for how much testing Apple did or are you just having a wild punt there? I doubt they would be so cavalier about it.

[sapporobaby]

To be sure I can, in fact surely safety of a drug ranks more highly than whether you can get your facebook details delivered at 3G speeds. The analogy still stands however, until you release something onto the open market you can't find all the problems with something.

Do you have evidence for how much testing Apple did or are you just having a wild punt there? I doubt they would be so cavalier about it.

It is mentioned in the beginning of this thread the testing that Apple stated. Apple stated that they did pre-production testing. Considering I have access to Nokia headquarters R&D in Espoo, and a few things in Tampere, and about 20 or 30 GSM engineers that are experts on the subject, I will take their word that real world testing would have found these issues that Apple is now trying like hell to fix and hoping will simply go away.

As for your analogy, when was the last time someone ingested a phone and it killed them? Please provide a link. Thanks in advance.

[melgross]

A phone is not a drug being introduced into your body. Surely you can see the difference. The fact is, Apple did not do a substantial real-world test with the iPhone. What don't you get about this? They did static, pre-production testing on limited (most likely AT&T) networks with an untested chip and then passed this off as ready for the world. Obviously they were wrong. Consumer complaints verify my assertions. Sooooo your "drug" argument is comparison is moot.

We don't really know what testing Apple and AT&T did.

One of the problems in working with partners like this is that there is a release date that often must be met. When Apple comes out with its own products it can delay them as much as possible, but when dealing with something like this, it's different.

No doubt they could (should) have had the time to do more testing, but it doesn't always work out that way.

All phone companies have had these problems, but the iPhone is so high profile that everyone knows about it. With most other phones, it's not a public topic of conversation.

[melgross]

It is mentioned in the beginning of this thread the testing that Apple stated. Apple stated that they did pre-production testing. Considering I have access to Nokia headquarters R&D in Espoo, and a few things in Tampere, and about 20 or 30 GSM engineers that are experts on the subject, I will take their word that real world testing would have found these issues that Apple is now trying like hell to fix and hoping will simply go away.

As for your analogy, when was the last time someone ingested a phone and it killed them? Please provide a link. Thanks in advance.

And did all of these Nokia people tell you that they never had a problem with a phone after it was released? I doubt it. If they did it would have been disingenuous.

[sapporobaby]

And did all of these Nokia people tell you that they never had a problem with a phone after it was released? I doubt it. If they did it would have been disingenuous.

No, no. They were complaining how stupid Nokia was with the N95. Do you remember that? They released the phone with an under powered battery and non-optimized software. The radios were spot on and worked as they should have but the user part of the phones were tested by another group that did not factor in GPS usage.

Anyway, as I stated earlier, I have no problems with the iPhone software. This is a work in progress but the radios, chipsets, antenna are all things that could have been found out on the quick. I will take the advice and word of a bunch of guys that build these things over a marketing team who's job is to now sell you the fact that Apple may have shit the bed on this by mistake. Solplism posted the info about Apple's test in this thread or a similar one. It stated that they used pre-production model software and devices.

[sapporobaby]

We don't really know what testing Apple and AT&T did.

One of the problems in working with partners like this is that there is a release date that often must be met. When Apple comes out with its own products it can delay them as much as possible, but when dealing with something like this, it's different.

No doubt they could (should) have had the time to do more testing, but it doesn't always work out that way.

All phone companies have had these problems, but the iPhone is so high profile that everyone knows about it. With most other phones, it's not a public topic of conversation.

Just realized I answered your posts backwards.

Anyway, I agree with 99.999999999999999% of what you wrote. My only contention from the beginning until now is that this is not something that could not have been caught from the very beginning. I think Apple simply rushed, took a chance, maybe even took the word of Infineon, and now it came back to bite them.

[flemsha]

It is mentioned in the beginning of this thread the testing that Apple stated. Apple stated that they did pre-production testing. Considering I have access to Nokia headquarters R&D in Espoo, and a few things in Tampere, and about 20 or 30 GSM engineers that are experts on the subject, I will take their word that real world testing would have found these issues that Apple is now trying like hell to fix and hoping will simply go away.

As for your analogy, when was the last time someone ingested a phone and it killed them? Please provide a link. Thanks in advance.

I dunno I doubt the batteries would be terribly good for you, and it's kinda big, might be caught up in the oesophagus...

The point is this, on something as serious as medications, where lives are at stake, all the pre-marketing testing in the world doesn't find anything, and things only get found when released to market, so on something of far less importance like consumer electronics the kind of testing which is warranted is not going to find every bug and problem which will crop up in the real world.

[sapporobaby]

I dunno I doubt the batteries would be terribly good for you, and it's kinda big, might be caught up in the oesophagus...

The point is this, on something as serious as medications, where lives are at stake, all the pre-marketing testing in the world doesn't find anything, and things only get found when released to market, so on something of far less importance like consumer electronics the kind of testing which is warranted is not going to find every bug and problem which will crop up in the real world.

I think that foot, followed down with a bit of crow might be cutting of the oxygen to your brain causing you black out and not know what you are talking about in this particular instance.

I think the three words you're looking for are: Game, set, match.

You are repeating the same old losing argument, which also shows you have not idea about how things work in the GSM world. GSM science is pretty exact. Testing usually finds problems before they go to production. If Apple had done just a bit of real world testing, they would have surely found what 10's of thousands of users are finding. Maybe you are a star in the medical world but as far as cellular.....let's just say it is not your strong suit.

P.S. Three more words: Check and mate.

[nvidia2008]

I dunno I doubt the batteries would be terribly good for you, and it's kinda big, might be caught up in the oesophagus...

The point is this, on something as serious as medications, where lives are at stake, all the pre-marketing testing in the world doesn't find anything, and things only get found when released to market, so on something of far less importance like consumer electronics the kind of testing which is warranted is not going to find every bug and problem which will crop up in the real world.

This is why in my final year of college when I was killing mice and stuff as part of my research, I said, f*k this...

Now I use teh Mac and try sell teh Mac. :smokey: No animals were harmed. (As far as Apple tells us anyways...) :smokey:

[nvidia2008]

I think that foot, followed down with a bit of crow might be cutting of the oxygen to your brain causing you black out and not know what you are talking about in this particular instance.

I think the three words you're looking for are: Game, set, match.

You are repeating the same old losing argument, which also shows you have not idea about how things work in the GSM world. GSM science is pretty exact. Testing usually finds problems before they go to production. If Apple had done just a bit of real world testing, they would have surely found what 10's of thousands of users are finding. Maybe you are a star in the medical world but as far as cellular.....let's just say it is not your strong suit.

P.S. Three more words: Check and mate.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL "cellular" --- get the pun ??? :D:D:D:D It *could* refer to Medical/Bio AND mobile tech....

[AVP3]

Back OT - - - network issues. I was eager to get an iPhone 3G until Starbucks (where I make my office) switched WiFi service from T-Mobile to ATT. Now, am less eager. ATT WiFi seems to drop network connections as a means of load control. At certain times of day, I get 10-12 network disconnects per hour. Level 2 tech admitted they have a software problem with their network administration.

Maybe we should focus our attention on the network.

[nvidia2008]

Back OT - - - network issues. I was eager to get an iPhone 3G until Starbucks (where I make my office) switched WiFi service from T-Mobile to ATT. Now, am less eager. ATT WiFi seems to drop network connections as a means of load control. At certain times of day, I get 10-12 network disconnects per hour. Level 2 tech admitted they have a software problem with their network administration.

Maybe we should focus our attention on the network.

I find Wi-Fi hotspots have some major weak points. Sometimes, it just won't give an IP address to the iPhone... Sometimes in cafes, usually the router is down and needs a reboot, but of course your nice but minimum-wage Barista perhaps won't have an idea about this...

As you mentioned, Wi-Fi is very important for remote working/social/life Internet stuff. If I sit down, order some nice food and drinks, and the Wi-Fi isn't up to scratch, I get pretty dissapointed.

To actually drop connections as load control is a terrible, terrible strategy. What *exactly* does the FCC do in the USA? Besides force everybody to put "FCC" logos on their devices???? (Slightly facetious here, but you get my drift)

[nvidia2008]

Maybe we should focus our attention on the network.

Apple needs to be able to have some quality assurance from the network providers, I believe, if y'all don't mind me reiterating here.

Apple makes sure every iPhone 3G black is a distinct shade of black, not slightly grey, not too dull, nor too shiny.

What procedures would they need to advance to make sure these network providers, so critical now to the perception of the Apple brand and its products, deliver as promised?

[AVP3]

My iPod touch is almost worthless here. However, I am online with a MacBook Pro about 10 hours a day. Just seeing the ATT WiFi problem as another facet of the entire ATT issue.

[sapporobaby]

To be sure there are network issues. Orange in France got caught throttling back it's network speeds leading users to think it was the iPhone. Apple, in my opinion is guilty of leaving itself open to doubt about the iPhone by not eliminating all easily provable doubts via simple testing on several networks.

[AVP3]

I am told that Starbucks is having words with ATT WiFi on the QA topic.

A bunch of the on-site issues come my way since I am sort of an informal in-store IT support tech. Lots of customer frustration. Does not make for a happy customer experience.

[lantzn]

Maybe I should have stayed with the Edge iPhone.

PS : to the credit of Orange, they did not raise the subscription plans : same price for 3G and Edge.

Then why not just go into the settings and turn of 3G so you'll have an Edge/WiFi iPhone again?

[PaulSorensen]

This study is unfortunately wrong.

In my repeated testing, the iPhone 3G cannot sustain a network connection under identical conditions and location to the Nokia N95-3. I'm mostly concerned with uploads here, and the device simply cannot stream data for more than 30 seconds, where the N95-3 can go for literally hours.

mmm So a few day ago, I drove around the in which I live while using the Pandora application to stream music at my for at least 30 minutes. It seems to be able to stream data for a lot longer than 30 seconds.

[TenoBell]

This is the typical pervasive "release and fix" attitude that runs through the industry. Apple didn't get 2% of my money. They got all of it. The problems with the iPhone could have been isolated via better testing. Apple and its "veil of secrecy" screwed itself by not doing a live test with production phones and production software extensively. Great that they did testing with non-production devices and software. This is the result.

I get accused of being an Apple cheerleader for asking obvious questions. But I have to ask anyway.

How do you really know Apple did not sufficiently test the phone? How do you know subsequent testing would have found the current problems?

Especially in light of the fact that all of Apple's other products in some shape or form have suffered from bugs and have been issued software fixes.

[TenoBell]

Anyway, I agree with 99.999999999999999% of what you wrote. My only contention from the beginning until now is that this is not something that could not have been caught from the very beginning. I think Apple simply rushed, took a chance, maybe even took the word of Infineon, and now it came back to bite them.

I'm not sure their is a way they could test all possible situations. Say for a city like New York where there could be 200,000 iPhones on AT&T's network using more data than every other phone on the network. If AT&T is having problems with density overload how could you really accurately test for that before you are actually in the real situation.

[sapporobaby]

I get accused of being an Apple cheerleader for asking obvious questions. But I have to ask anyway.

How do you really know Apple did not sufficiently test the phone? How do you know subsequent testing would have found the current problems?

Especially in light of the fact that all of Apple's other products in some shape or form have suffered from bugs and have been issued software fixes.

Tenobell, after spending multiple years in the GSM arena via product design (software), product integrations, testing, etc.... not to mention working hand and hand with phone manufacturers and the engineers, I am pretty confident when they say that this could have been avoided because it is so easily provable. Just turn the phone on, make some calls and see if they connect. If they don't you look at the antenna, the chips, the output and receive amplifiers, and other associated hardware. Apple rushed, believed Infineon that their chip was okay, and put it out to market. Now they have a case of the "oh shits" and their veil of secrecy has come home to roost. None of the operators had the iPhone before its launch for more than a few hours to days. This is not product testing.

[melgross]

Just realized I answered your posts backwards.

Anyway, I agree with 99.999999999999999% of what you wrote. My only contention from the beginning until now is that this is not something that could not have been caught from the very beginning. I think Apple simply rushed, took a chance, maybe even took the word of Infineon, and now it came back to bite them.

That's all part of the problem. What we don't know is if Apple could have been fined for not meeting a delivery date. This is pretty common in various industries, and I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was true here as well. A late delivery could cost Apple's partners a big bundle. As long as it seemed to be "good enough", all concerned could have preferred delivery rather than an uncertain date, which could have been weeks, or even months off.

And if part of the problem rests with carriers as well, then there was nothing Apple could have done about that.

[melgross]

mmm So a few day ago, I drove around the in which I live while using the Pandora application to stream music at my for at least 30 minutes. It seems to be able to stream data for a lot longer than 30 seconds.

Yeah, what he's saying doesn't make sense. I've also used Pandora for about an hour. Just that Pandora is annoying in that it is always asking for a thumb up or whatever before it streams the next song, at least for the time I've been using it, unless there's some way of turning that off that I haven't yet looked for.

[TenoBell]

Tenobell, after spending multiple years in the GSM arena via product design (software), product integrations, testing, etc.... not to mention working hand and hand with phone manufacturers and the engineers, I am pretty confident when they say that this could have been avoided because it is so easily provable. Just turn the phone on, make some calls and see if they connect. If they don't you look at the antenna, the chips, the output and receive amplifiers, and other associated hardware. Apple rushed, believed Infineon that their chip was okay, and put it out to market. Now they have a case of the "oh shits" and their veil of secrecy has come home to roost. None of the operators had the iPhone before its launch for more than a few hours to days. This is not product testing.

The carriers did take test iPhones out into their areas. It's highly likely with a few test phones everything worked fine.

This is an entirely different situation from the reality of having hundreds of thousands of iPhones taxing a 3G network. I cannot see how they could reliably test for that.

[sapporobaby]

The carriers did take test iPhones out into their areas. It's highly likely with a few test phones everything worked fine.

This is an entirely different situation from the reality of having hundreds of thousands of iPhones taxing a 3G network. I cannot see how they could reliably test for that.

There an article published here where several operators stated that they only received the iPhones about 24 hours before they were to be sold. So no, I do not believe they did adequate testing or this would have manifested itself during the testing. This is what seems to escape you. These problems did not happen a month down the line. They happened almost immediately. This alone proves that Apple did not adequately test the production version devices.

[TenoBell]

There an article published here where several operators stated that they only received the iPhones about 24 hours before they were to be sold. So no, I do not believe they did adequate testing or this would have manifested itself during the testing. This is what seems to escape you. These problems did not happen a month down the line. They happened almost immediately. This alone proves that Apple did not adequately test the production version devices.

That still says nothing about how Apple itself tested the device. So far imdependent tests show the radio working fine. Can you provide a link to the article?

[sapporobaby]

That still says nothing about how Apple itself tested the device. So far imdependent tests show the radio working fine. Can you provide a link to the article?

Apple did say they tested the device. They used non-production software and a non-production device. It was posted in this forum. That is where I go the info from. This is my point all along. They did not test the devices you are using or at least they never said so. They used static data in their tests then sold the device based on this. I can not find the link right now but I will see if I can.

[melgross]

Apple did say they tested the device. They used non-production software and a non-production device. It was posted in this forum. That is where I go the info from. This is my point all along. They did not test the devices you are using or at least they never said so. They used static data in their tests then sold the device based on this. I can not find the link right now but I will see if I can.

But since we are now getting several reports that the device functions correctly in tests, perhaps there is nothing wrong. Even devices that were reported to have this problem have been tested as functioning properly.

Perhaps it is the networks after all.

[sapporobaby]

But since we are now getting several reports that the device functions correctly in tests, perhaps there is nothing wrong. Even devices that were reported to have this problem have been tested as functioning properly.

Perhaps it is the networks after all.

I would keep my fingers crossed on this. At the end of the day, I hope this is the case even though a new iPhone would be nice. :)

Network optimization is not hard to do, as it is done all the time. It can be expensive though if completely new code is written. By the way, where is Infineon in all of this? THey have been quiet lately.

It would be interesting to see the next chips used in the next iPhone.

[melgross]

I would keep my fingers crossed on this. At the end of the day, I hope this is the case even though a new iPhone would be nice. :)

Network optimization is not hard to do, as it is done all the time. It can be expensive though if completely new code is written. By the way, where is Infineon in all of this? THey have been quiet lately.

It would be interesting to see the next chips used in the next iPhone.

Infineon denied the rumor that their chips were at fault.

I'll tell you something though. I've mentioned it before. My internet reception in my home sucked the first few days. Then suddenly, it became much better. Now, that was a day after the 2.0.2 update. did that have something to do with it? Did AT&T do something at about the same time? If so, were they deliberately related?

I don't know, of course, but reception is much better. Occasionally I will have a problem with one app, but the others will receive fine. Strange. Usually I will get a message that the server is not responding. Now, where do I get that anywhere else? Hmmm!

Oh yes, with Appleinsider's server. On a much too frequent basis. It rarely happens on any other server.

So, does that tell us anything?

[barjohn]

It is interesting how writers make a leap from the engineers saying the ANTENNAs are OK to all of the hardware and software is OK. They were very careful to only make claims about the antennas. There is a lot more to the reception issues than the antennas.

All of us experiencing these issues know that there is something wrong with the phone. Is it hardware or software? We don't know. Walk into any AT&T store and look at the iPhones on display. They have either switched them to EDGE or enabled WiFi. If they are on 3G they have maybe one bar. Run the test mode and you will see the dbm signal at around -101dbm. Check out the other 3G phones all sitting at 4-5 bars. Are bars the same, no, but they aren't that different.