New BlackBerry suffering same 3G connection drops as iPhone

[AppleInsider]

Cellular access woes initially pinned on the iPhone 3G's particular hardware now appear likely to be thwarting the BlackBerry Bold's debut with AT&T, according to a new report .

Citigroup investment research analyst Jim Suva's early testing of the Bold, which uses the same 3G network standard as current iPhones, finds the device with just as unstable a connection as that reported in the US and elsewhere for Apple's handset, with data sometimes dropping to the slower EDGE network or even cutting out entirely.

"We had a few occasional 3G signal dropping troubles at some locations," Suva writes, "especially on high-rises building streets on our 34th floor... which may be why AT&T has yet to launch the product."

And while Rogers Wireless in Canada has already launched Research in Motion's new smartphone, the researcher suggests that an American launch may hinge on either a patch for the Bold's firmware or straightening out network issues with AT&T, which will be the phone's sole carrier in the US.

Tellingly, the Bold uses a component of its Marvell processor as its 3G modem where iPhone 3G uses a separate Infineon chipset, ruling out identical hardware as the issue.

AT&T has yet to commit to an actual release date for the new BlackBerry despite announcing its plans in May, but hasn't publicly explained the delay.

The interpretation isn't a comprehensive study but comes just as Wired has finished an international study which points to US-based iPhone owners as suffering the largest number of failed data speed tests, particularly in dense urban areas where 3G towers are more likely to be overwhelmed.[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=4534)

[derocketman]

So what's new about this ? I switched from Verizon (never a dropped call) to ATT in order to purchase an i-phone in the fall. I now have at least 3 dropped calls/day (even with all the "bars"), and the ATT people said that is a good average !

Can't wait to jump back to Verizon !

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !

[Bageljoey]

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !

I agree.

But my question is what does it take to upgrade the capacity of the at&t network?
Is it something they can implement immediately on a tower by tower basis or do we need to wait for some system-wide change?

I'm on the fence with the iPhone right now. All my family and friends love it and I would probably be happy with it as things stand now. But at&t's network is only going to get more and more taxed as time goes by...

Does anybody know the specifics of the process for remedying this?

[bigmc6000]

So what's new about this ? I switched from Verizon (never a dropped call) to ATT in order to purchase an i-phone in the fall. I now have at least 3 dropped calls/day (even with all the "bars"), and the ATT people said that is a good average !

Can't wait to jump back to Verizon !

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !
Have fun back at Verizon with their proprietary everything. Even if you do happen to get a phone that's more than just a phone they'll nickle and dime you to death. Case and point - visual voicemail. If you hate dropping calls that much just turn off the 3G until they release a fix in the next few weeks.

If your primary concern is dropped calls you have the ability to remedy that situation - I really don't feel bad for all you guys complaining about dropped calls but are unwilling to turn off 3G and fix the problem. If you want to surf - turn it on - if you aren't surfing, turn it off. Much like what I do with my Wi-Fi.

It's not the best solution but Apple is working on it and in the mean time you have the ability to fix the problem.

[retroneo]

I imagine AT&T isn't marketing USB 3G Keys as a competitor to DSL/Cable yet?

Surely users of these keys would be complaining about issues like this too.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_tU7UppYk_ic/R-zHRt8QwpI/AAAAAAAAAsA/G7LnZeA1HGk/s320/vodafone_14_4_mbps_hsdpa_usb_stick.jpg

[vinea]

Does anybody know the specifics of the process for remedying this?

They need more towers and additional spectrum...followed by a beefier backbone.

They can't do towers at any greater pace than they have because it's expensive but they are building out their network. The current towers are a tad too far apart but they know this and are building as fast as their pocketbook allows.

Spectrum they are getting from shutting down their legacy TDMA service...giving them back the 850Mhz spectrum which should give them more building penetration capability. Coupled with the 700Mhz spectrum they purchased should fill this gap eventually.

Plus, as one AT&T engineer stated, they went from EDGE experts to 3G novices. This will improve naturally over time.

So things from their side will get better.

Whether it gets better faster than they get more 3G users is questionable...but certainly they know what needs to be done.

[MyopiaRocks]

Forgive the nerd-speak...

The problem is with the way AT&T's software tracks a cellphone. Basically, at any point x, at cycle y, a cellphone could be anywhere in the universe. A tower would have to send out a lot of energy to ping every spot in the universe for a particular phone, and the phone would have to put out a lot of juice to be spotted by the tower (needle in haystack). So, a mathematical system for estimation is used to optimize the amount of power needed by the tower & phone while maintaining the signal. (basically, if the tower knows where you are at cycle y, it uses mathematical estimation to "guess" where you will be at y+1).

When you see "full bars" or whatever, you are seeing that there *is* a signal... but it has no bearing on whether *your particular* signal will be properly tracked if you try to call/whatever someone. The tracking is done by the math formula, which is turned into code.

The problem with AT&T, as I think I posted on a different ai thread, is that the programmers hired the C- math students to write the optimization equations (and, probably, the programmers were C- as well...). The equations are bad, so the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle. The result? Dropped calls.

Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of Kalman Filtering, which is the best mathematical system for such estimations (if you want a book, the best is, "An Introduction to Kalman Filtering With Applications" by K.Miller and D.Leskiw - no, it's not my book).

So... it's not [just] the hardware - I don't know enough about the hardware to say definitively, but I know enough about tracking to know a bad tracking program by the way it works (or doesn't). PS: Kalman filtering is often used as the mathematical basis for tracking everything, from cellphones to airplanes to ballistic missiles. If you have a radar + you need to optimize energy usage => kalman.

[iCarbon]

I get that people are dissapointed, and agree that AT&T is sucking pretty bad, but I have to second bigmc6000 -- turn off your 3g most of the time; you get better battery life and almost no dropped calls (the only dropped calls I've had with my 3g turned off coincide remarkably with my movement into a dead zone).

I'm hoping that apple creates an option where 3g is only turned on with selected apps; if I want to run safari, then I would be happy to have 3g go looking, but I don't need it running when I'm (a) listening to my ipod, (b) just talking on the phone (c) playing solitare -- its just a waste of battery then.

we'll see how many software iterations until we get to that happy place.

[wtbard]

My first thought when I heard this and skyscrapers mentioned was multipath. It sounds like the 3G signal is getting interfered with it's reflections. The main fix for that is a stronger signal mentioned previously.

[ktappe]

the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle

I understand what you are saying, but what I don't get is WHY it ever comes into play. If I am connected to a tower with a strong signal, no guessing should ever be needed--I should stay with that tower until my signal gets weak. When/if it does, only then should another tower (if there is one) with a stronger signal from my phone, take a "hand off" from the original tower. "Guessing" should not enter into it. :devil:

Signed,
iPhone 2.0.2 user who again got several dropped calls last night while NOT MOVING with 5 bars of signal

[NOFEER]

Have fun back at Verizon with their proprietary everything. Even if you do happen to get a phone that's more than just a phone they'll nickle and dime you to death. Case and point - visual voicemail. If you hate dropping calls that much just turn off the 3G until they release a fix in the next few weeks.

If your primary concern is dropped calls you have the ability to remedy that situation - I really don't feel bad for all you guys complaining about dropped calls but are unwilling to turn off 3G and fix the problem. If you want to surf - turn it on - if you aren't surfing, turn it off. Much like what I do with my Wi-Fi.



It's not the best solution but Apple is working on it and in the mean time you have the ability to fix the problem.

agree 100%, i wish the iphone had a power/ feature management button, because i turn 3g off, bt off when inside, don't use 3g unless don't have wifi and need internet or gps, i wish i didn't have to keep going back and forth to settings--which is now on my home button group
soooo we are hearing "it is the phone---oh no its the antenae....no its the network...well as long as it's not the phone that would require a recall.....it's fixable but by att not apple, apple will put pressure on att, and probably knew that with all the "expansion" that att would have to do in a short time, it was at risk of happening....so like all computer dudes and dudettes we pride ourselves in work-arounds, so this is how i work around the battery issue and dropped calls issue. i don't have dropped calls, i use the tried and true 2g. network. all the other iphone stuff for all the other stuff

[bigmc6000]

agree 100%, i wish the iphone had a power/ feature management button, because i turn 3g off, bt off when inside, don't use 3g unless don't have wifi and need internet or gps, i wish i didn't have to keep going back and forth to settings--which is now on my home button group
soooo we are hearing "it is the phone---oh no its the antenae....no its the network...well as long as it's not the phone that would require a recall.....it's fixable but by att not apple, apple will put pressure on att, and probably knew that with all the "expansion" that att would have to do in a short time, it was at risk of happening....so like all computer dudes and dudettes we pride ourselves in work-arounds, so this is how i work around the battery issue and dropped calls issue. i don't have dropped calls, i use the tried and true 2g. network. all the other iphone stuff for all the other stuff
I too wonder why Apple hasn't made an "auto-on/off" feature on the iPhone. I mean, is there really some massive quality uptick in voice calls between 3G and EDGE? I think it could be fairly easy for them to release something and say "If you are having problems with dropped calls or battery life Apple encourages you to enable to auto-3G feature which will turn 3G off when not using Safari, Mail, YouTube, and Maps." I realize it's a work around but it would also help A TON with all the whining about battery life and some outlets might get mad at Apple but the consumer would be happy and isn't that what matters?

[NasserAE]

I guess people now can at least understand why Apple decided to use EDGE for the 1st iPhone. 3G network, at least in the US, is not ready yet and as someone said before turn off your 3G feature.
3G is only useful for faster internet and if you need browse the internet while talking. There is no benefit of using 3G while talking (actually it drains your battery twice as fast).

[ascii]

I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.

[NeilM]

it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.

Please bear in mind that saying your iPhone's 3G performance is or is not flawless is completely unhelpful unless you also specify where you are.

[MyopiaRocks]

I understand what you are saying, but what I don't get is WHY it ever comes into play. If I am connected to a tower with a strong signal, no guessing should ever be needed--I should stay with that tower until my signal gets weak. When/if it does, only then should another tower (if there is one) with a stronger signal from my phone, take a "hand off" from the original tower. "Guessing" should not enter into it. :devil:

Signed,
iPhone 2.0.2 user who again got several dropped calls last night while NOT MOVING with 5 bars of signal

It's important to remember that you are never "staying" with a tower. Even if we assume there is only one tower (ie, no 'hand-offs', which is its own fun little math game), the tower is only in contact with your phone once per cycle. So let's assume that AT&T's network has 60 cycles per minute (good for math, bad if they really only cycled once per second) and that you are in a completely flat surface with Line of Sight to the tower and "full bars": in second #1 you are at point x. The tower knows this and you have a connection. Where will you be in second #2? That depends:
- Are you standing still?
- Are you walking?
- Are you in a car moving 55mph?
- Are you in a rocket ship or airplane?
- Are you moving at warp 9.6?

The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID. So, now, draw a circle around your position in second #1 - everything in the circle represents everywhere in the universe you *could* be at second/cycle #2. The tower will send the info for *your* phonecall/whatever to every spot in that circle. The size of the circle needs to be as small as possible to minimize energy usage (think of the EMFs, think of your cellphone's battery...), but large enough that it doesn't "drop" you (if you are outside of the circle). This is optimization.

That's problem #1. Problem #2 is what happens if, at any cycle x, the tower can't find you? Let's say you momentarily pass through a lead box, blocking line of sight.... do you get clipped conversation ("can you hear me now?") or do you lose the call, altogether? This is AT&T's biggest weakness with their network: basically, their system craps the bed (for lack of a better term) if it can't find you in any given cycle (whether by bad estimation on its part or movement behind obstruction on your part). More towers or more power (think of the EMFs!) could ... help... but wouldn't solve this problem.

That's basically it. Verizon's cdma network is considered technologically older, but Verizon's proprietary tracking software does a much better job [imo, from anecdotal usage-experience] at keeping a connection - if it misses you at one cycle it just tries again at the next cycle and if you're still in the circle you're ok. AT&T's signal does this... poorly.

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

[bigmc6000]

Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
It's not his/her fault?!?!? ;)

[charlituna]

So what's new about this ?

what's new is that prior to this info, folks wanted to bash Apple and blame the drops on bad hardware and software, even to the point of suing Apple.

but this information shows that another device on the same network is having issues so the fault is not likely to be 100% Apple but in fact part Apple and part ATT (or even all ATT).

I do think that perhaps Apple needs to readjust the sensitivity levels that force a switch back to Edge cause they seem to be too high, thus folks get low reception. or if there is not something in the software at all, put it in there. that will likely help with the dropped voice calls.

[charlituna]

I imagine AT&T isn't marketing USB 3G Keys as a competitor to DSL/Cable yet?
[/IMG]


I'm not sure what you mean by a 'key' but you can go to ATT and get a 3G wireless card (http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phones/pc-cards.jsp) that you can use with a laptop and conceiveably with a desktop.

which I suspect is part of why ATT is fighting any tethering via the iphone.

[jfanning]

I too wonder why Apple hasn't made an "auto-on/off" feature on the iPhone. I mean, is there really some massive quality uptick in voice calls between 3G and EDGE? I think it could be fairly easy for them to release something and say "If you are having problems with dropped calls or battery life Apple encourages you to enable to auto-3G feature which will turn 3G off when not using Safari, Mail, YouTube, and Maps." I realize it's a work around but it would also help A TON with all the whining about battery life and some outlets might get mad at Apple but the consumer would be happy and isn't that what matters?

EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off

[jfanning]

There is no benefit of using 3G while talking .

Yes there is.

[charlituna]

EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off

this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot

[Dlux]

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.

[bigmc6000]

Yes there is.
The question isn't if there is benefit it's if it's noticeable. I haven't had a single problem operating under 2G/GSM and all the voices come through quite clear. Ultimately you're just having a telephone conversation and considering the average persons talking vocal range is quite limited there's no reason to care about the 20-20k Hz range. I'll give it to you that there is some benefit but that's like oversampling an audiobook - it's generally a complete waste of time/space.

[jfanning]

this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot

I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology

GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.

So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM

[solipsism]

I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology

GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.

So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM

GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.

Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.

[jfanning]

GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.

Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.

You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call

[mark2005]

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

Thanks for the explanation. But if people are getting good voice call performance on AT&T's GSM today (unlike what you had a couple years back), why couldn't those tracking algorithms be carried over to AT&T's 3G implementation? What's different, tracking-wise, about 3G?

Or is AT&T's GSM really still bad?

[LoganHunter]

I was trying to keep myself shut about this kind of "unstable 3G connection" issue because the reasons why it happens are clear for me, but now I think I can say something about this.

Well, people should/must get minimal information on how a wireless connection works before starting with "this is a device problem" statements. The quality/strength of a connection signal depends on the network coverage, on how far or near we are from a cell. If the network coverage isn't good, you can get the kickass state of the art device and it wont work well! Here in Europe we have 3G network for some time now and we all experienced that kind of issues: the cityscape doesn't allow the signal to pass through, or we are too far away from a cell (and that can say another one should be placed nearer). Unfortunately it's... ahem... "normal"! So the problem is not in the devices, is in the carrier itself. There are limitations on where the signal can pass through and, even when it finds its way of propagation, the signal gets weaker with the distance. Even with wired communications there's loss of bandwidth with the distance (take ADSL as an example).

With all that, people should argue with the carriers in order to get better network coverage and not with the device makers. There can be exceptions like 2 different devices using same carrier and one has less connection than the other but I don't think that's the problem here.

The iPhone and the BB can be amazing devices but they'll never be perfect, and that will be even harder to achieve when 3rd party services like carriers are in the game too. The devices don't depend on themselves only to work properly and we must keep this in mind.

[solipsism]

You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call

I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.

[melgross]

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.

A lot of this problem has more to do with call density than tracking, as Wired has said.

I often get a five bar 3G signal, only to see it drop to one or two bars, and stay there. Then, at times, it will drop out of 3G and go to five or four bars of Edge, then pop back up to three bars of 3G.

This is without me moving the phone at all.

Wired's explanation, which makes more sense than a tracking issue, is that 3G towers are getting overloaded, hence they drop out entirely, and Edge takes over. When some calls finish, capacity is restored, and you get 3G again. It goes back and forth in areas where there is great density of 3G phones.

Digital is either working, or not working. If capacity is too low, there will be problems.

Combine this with not quite enough towers in a number of areas and you have problems. Also, AT&T has said that the 3G towers are being upgraded as to the strength of the signal. That will help as well.

[MyopiaRocks]

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.

...maybe, possibly, probably? Unfortunately, I would be speculating about whether AT&T's specific implementation will solve their problem with signal tracking. As a discouraging example: when the US Gov't (and contractors) upgrades radars, they have a nasty habit of trying to patch legacy systems whenever possible (cost-savings). This carries-forward many of the glitches from past systems into the new ones.

I am guessing that AT&T would employ similar cost-saving techniques, including porting their support/tracking software when possible. As technology improves, a better iphone antenna/chipset/etc would [possibly] compensate, allowing for a more-stable system without giving EMF-worriers huge brain tumors... another possibility is that Verizon's new network will [eventually] be iphone-friendly for one reason or another, and US customers will be able to switch and get the benefits of better tracking.

The problem with the question you raise is that tracking software is proprietary, and the really good stuff is classified by the US Gov't (they don't want to share their tracking toys with the other children...). AT&T can't just borrow someone else's, and if they wrote new software from scratch there would be new errors to fix (replace OS9.2 with OSX 10.0 and watch people go berzerk when 50% of calls are dropped in the first week of go-live).

The downside: This will be an ongoing Cingular/AT&T weakness for the foreseeable future.
The upside: Software patches in a phone *can* compensate for this, to a degree, and Apple has a decent incentive to make a propriety chipset that makes the biggest receiving area while using the least amount of power/battery life...

[jfanning]

I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.

That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.

I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only

[solipsism]

That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.

I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.

[jfanning]

You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.

Now you are just getting picky

GSM is circuit switched, GPRS is a addition to enable packet switching for data.

Yes GSM can be used for data, but if you did it would be CSD, so 9.6k, or 14.4k.

For GSM package swtiched data you could use GPRS, or EDGE.

You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make

[solipsism]

You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6661/3gppgsmtrackeb3.png

[jfanning]

Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.

That is what I did say originally

[ipodrulz]

I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.

[ktappe]

The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID.
Why can it not also know signal strength? My phone knows (supposedly, if we are to trust the bars) how much of a signal I'm getting from the tower, so the tower should also know how much of a phone signal it's getting. And if that signal is strong, it should use that info in its decision-making process of whether to drop the call if it misses a cycle. If the signal had been (very) weak, then sure, maybe dropping the call is the best course of action. But if I had 5 bars, there is no way the tower should be missing any cycles, so if it does lose one, dropping the call should be its LAST option.

Is this issue the lousy logic you're referring to AT&T using?

[wizard69]

I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.

IPhone is a great product or concept but execution is wanting. I've had some issues with calls but frankly the cell phone component was not a big draw. What was is the portable computer / Internet access functionality. With respect to this usage the iPhone is wanting. That mostly due to bugs in all the software. The apps (mail, Safari, contacts and the like) do what I want when they don't crash. But frankly what good is an E-Mail program that crashes after two SIMPLE messages are read.

I guess that is the #1 thing that burns my behind, mail crashes when you open up nothing but simple E-Mails. It would be a bit different if the crashes happened on really complex multi media E-Mail but this is not the case at all.

Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.

Now understand these are frustrations! I now use my iPhone every day, with crashes or other issues every day. It certainly solves a need but I did expect a little better out of Apple for core functionality. The only good thing is that I have confidence that Apple will address the bugs which is more than can be said for the majority of hand set makers.

So I won't suggest to anybody not to buy an iPhone, it is a good machine but you need to be aware of the bugs. In any event I'm hoping most of these issues are dealt with before the end of next month.


Dave

[Abster2core]

I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.

I am up to 1500kbps now, which is over 10 times my EDGE. What are you getting?

By the way, how much Data Usage did you use? My Rogers bill came the other day and I only used 42 MBs for a 3 week period.

[MyopiaRocks]

A lot of this problem has more to do with call density than tracking, as Wired has said.

I often get a five bar 3G signal, only to see it drop to one or two bars, and stay there. Then, at times, it will drop out of 3G and go to five or four bars of Edge, then pop back up to three bars of 3G.

This is without me moving the phone at all.

Wired's explanation, which makes more sense than a tracking issue, is that 3G towers are getting overloaded, hence they drop out entirely, and Edge takes over. When some calls finish, capacity is restored, and you get 3G again. It goes back and forth in areas where there is great density of 3G phones.

Digital is either working, or not working. If capacity is too low, there will be problems.

Combine this with not quite enough towers in a number of areas and you have problems. Also, AT&T has said that the 3G towers are being upgraded as to the strength of the signal. That will help as well.

Certainly, traffic can also be a big problem... my reasons for not believing it to be the big reason here:
- Calls dropped when sitting still during a low-volume period (with adequate tower coverage).
- Calls dropped when moving through low-call-density areas (w/ adequate coverage).
- It is a convenient problem, in terms of having a ready-made solution to present to the audience.

If it is solely a call-density/congestion/traffic problem, then at low-traffic periods people would not have problems. Question: is this the case? It sure sounds like people are having trouble all the time, and not just during peak periods of the day...

It is a convenient problem because the PR answer is: we're solving the problem - we're building more towers! It sounds like a good way to say, "no, really, we're working on it!" It's better than my more pessimistic assertion of, "it's the fatal flaw of our network that a 5th grader wrote our tracking software for his intro to c++ class. We could fix it, but we'd just be hiring another 5th grader..."

I don't mean to belittle your point at all because there certainly could be truth to it. My contention is that the problems are too pervasive, and that explanation too convenient, for it to be entirely correct. It most definitely could be part of the problem, though.

[MyopiaRocks]

Why can it not also know signal strength? My phone knows (supposedly, if we are to trust the bars) how much of a signal I'm getting from the tower, so the tower should also know how much of a phone signal it's getting. And if that signal is strong, it should use that info in its decision-making process of whether to drop the call if it misses a cycle. If the signal had been (very) weak, then sure, maybe dropping the call is the best course of action. But if I had 5 bars, there is no way the tower should be missing any cycles, so if it does lose one, dropping the call should be its LAST option.

Is this issue the lousy logic you're referring to AT&T using?

You are correct; there are ways to gather information about the quality of a connection, but your solution might introduce more complexities than are needed. I think a similar example would be clearest: When you ping an IP address you see the number of dropped packets, latency, etc. So a network (AT&T, whomever) could collect something like this and make a decision like you suggest...

...but nobody ever wants a network to decide to arbitrarily drop a phone call. If it's remotely possible, we want the thing to keep trying, right? So to continue with the IP metaphor, the key question is, "What should the network do if a packet is dropped?" Should you immediately get a horrible, "your browser isn't connected to any network," or should it keep trying? And for how long? Add to that that your phone is a moving target (potentially), and that's where the phone network hits bumps.

This oversimplifies: When AT&T's network hits a "dropped packet" it drops the ball. The "correct/ideal" thing is for it to use your position info from a previous x cycle(s) and, using approximation, try sending your signal to the next logical spot. <--- this can be done; this is what networks do (good networks just do it, better).

Your phone/mobile/whatever could also note that it didn't get anything from the tower on the last cycle, and momentarily put forth a stronger signal to possibly detect and reacquire the misguided/wayward signal (this is only one of several possible solutions).

These sound easy in layman's terms, and the exact solutions are doable with math (thanks to Mr. Kalman, et al). The money for a phone maker/service provider is made by the programmer who [correctly] turn the math into code. I have great respect for these [good] programmers...

[DanaCameron]

"...an auto-3G feature which will turn 3G off when not using Safari, Mail, YouTube, and Maps."?

Given the evidently immature state of AT&T's 3G network, this seems like a great "workaround" solution option for the time being. Unfortunately, I doubt Apple will implement it. I think even including an option to turn off the key new feature on their iPhone 3G was a necessary concession they'd have preferred not to have to make. But, as it turns out, they were wise to hedge their bet on AT&T's readiness.

Presuming AT&T fixes their 3G network hardware issues and Apple fixes the iPhone's 3G/EDGE handshaking issues (in anything resembling a timely manner), any such 3G "auto-on/off" feature from Apple would be a temporary fix that would then need to be removed in the not too distant future. Is there a precedent for Apple doing anything like that in its history?

I think Apple will be content to let AT&T take the heat as consumer and business demand forces the carrier to improve its sub-par 3G network. Apple will likely continue to focus its own efforts instead on improving the iPhone's functionality (i.e., 3G/EDGE handshaking, signal acquisition, GPS tracking, etc.) through software/firmware updates.

[ascii]

Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.

Yes I agree the syncing needs some work. Even without using MobileMe, if you're just syncing contacts, bookmarks and calendar direct through iTunes it still sometimes fails to transfer changed records. I have had to go in to Address Book and make artificial edits to get it to see the change. I was mainly commenting that I don't think the 3G radio is faulty.

[ByronVanArsdale]

Forgive the nerd-speak...

The problem is with the way AT&T's software tracks a cellphone. Basically, at any point x, at cycle y, a cellphone could be anywhere in the universe. A tower would have to send out a lot of energy to ping every spot in the universe for a particular phone, and the phone would have to put out a lot of juice to be spotted by the tower (needle in haystack). So, a mathematical system for estimation is used to optimize the amount of power needed by the tower & phone while maintaining the signal. (basically, if the tower knows where you are at cycle y, it uses mathematical estimation to "guess" where you will be at y+1).

When you see "full bars" or whatever, you are seeing that there *is* a signal... but it has no bearing on whether *your particular* signal will be properly tracked if you try to call/whatever someone. The tracking is done by the math formula, which is turned into code.

The problem with AT&T, as I think I posted on a different ai thread, is that the programmers hired the C- math students to write the optimization equations (and, probably, the programmers were C- as well...). The equations are bad, so the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle. The result? Dropped calls.

Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of Kalman Filtering, which is the best mathematical system for such estimations (if you want a book, the best is, "An Introduction to Kalman Filtering With Applications" by K.Miller and D.Leskiw - no, it's not my book).

So... it's not [just] the hardware - I don't know enough about the hardware to say definitively, but I know enough about tracking to know a bad tracking program by the way it works (or doesn't). PS: Kalman filtering is often used as the mathematical basis for tracking everything, from cellphones to airplanes to ballistic missiles. If you have a radar + you need to optimize energy usage => kalman.


THAT was helpful! Thank you and contribute nerd-speak anytime!

[ByronVanArsdale]

You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.

there is just no upside in arguing with solipsism :lol:

[NasserAE]

Yes there is.

and that would be... ?!

[cubefan]

Forgive the nerd-speak...

The problem is with the way AT&T's software tracks a cellphone. Basically, at any point x, at cycle y, a cellphone could be anywhere in the universe. A tower would have to send out a lot of energy to ping every spot in the universe for a particular phone, and the phone would have to put out a lot of juice to be spotted by the tower (needle in haystack). So, a mathematical system for estimation is used to optimize the amount of power needed by the tower & phone while maintaining the signal. (basically, if the tower knows where you are at cycle y, it uses mathematical estimation to "guess" where you will be at y+1).

When you see "full bars" or whatever, you are seeing that there *is* a signal... but it has no bearing on whether *your particular* signal will be properly tracked if you try to call/whatever someone. The tracking is done by the math formula, which is turned into code.

The problem with AT&T, as I think I posted on a different ai thread, is that the programmers hired the C- math students to write the optimization equations (and, probably, the programmers were C- as well...). The equations are bad, so the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle. The result? Dropped calls.

Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of Kalman Filtering, which is the best mathematical system for such estimations (if you want a book, the best is, "An Introduction to Kalman Filtering With Applications" by K.Miller and D.Leskiw - no, it's not my book).

So... it's not [just] the hardware - I don't know enough about the hardware to say definitively, but I know enough about tracking to know a bad tracking program by the way it works (or doesn't). PS: Kalman filtering is often used as the mathematical basis for tracking everything, from cellphones to airplanes to ballistic missiles. If you have a radar + you need to optimize energy usage => kalman.

Thank you for your explanations, nerd speak forgiven!,

Your notes explain why in the UK a cellphone on Vodafone drops calls in the same way (and it is NOT an iPhone), over here an iPhone on O2 is actually pretty good whereas a Nokia 6021 on Vodafone is rubbish. Its the provider, not the handset,

An iPhone on Orange's UK network would be even better, coverage and service are spot-on, oh please!!!!

[LonerATO]

back haul plays a factor as well as AT&T only having 5mhz and at most 10mhz of spectrum in most major cities. I can still see AT&T having issues with LTE when that comes out due to very little spectrum.

[technohermit]

and that would be... ?!

From what I understood, you cannot use data and voice at the same time while on EDGE. Meaning, no safari, or mail, etc. while on a cell call. Which means no push email while talking on your phone on EDGE/GSM. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I understood it. 3G has that capability.

[gmon750]

what's new is that prior to this info, folks wanted to bash Apple and blame the drops on bad hardware and software, even to the point of suing Apple.

but this information shows that another device on the same network is having issues so the fault is not likely to be 100% Apple but in fact part Apple and part ATT (or even all ATT).

I do think that perhaps Apple needs to readjust the sensitivity levels that force a switch back to Edge cause they seem to be too high, thus folks get low reception. or if there is not something in the software at all, put it in there. that will likely help with the dropped voice calls.

I agree with you. When the entire Apple-bashing came out, I stayed on the sidelines waiting to see what the real story was when the truth finally came out. The predictions (i.e. "guessing") the anlalysts and the whiners did turned out to be wrong. They seem to be mysteriously quiet at the moment with their Apple-bashing. RIM probably delayed their phone because they knew of the immaturity of the 3G network (at least in the U.S.) and wanted to see how the iPhone drama goes. At least Apple had the gusto to go in and give it a try.

Apple took the high-road and did their best to improve the 3G experience even though it wasn't really anything they could do. They didn't lower themselves to the pack-mentality or the torch-bearing villagers. However, I do believe there was finger-pointing going back and forth between Apple and AT&T and no one wanted to take the blame. It's times like these when the best action for a user is to take a step back and wait for the dust to settle and see what the final outcome is. Now it seems apparent what it was.

[drazztikka]

Well then research analyst Jim Suva should've researched better.
I thought it is known that 3G isn't guaranteed everywhere, that if 3G drops out, the switch to EDGE isn't smooth so calls drop out.

Seems perfectly logical to me.

[ktappe]

I recall reading somewhere in the past week that supposedly AT&T doesn't know how many 3G calls are getting dropped because few customers report them when they happen.

Is it worth reporting dropped calls to AT&T? If so, does anyone know the best phone # to call AT&T at to report them? (Assuming your call to them doesn't drop.... :\ )

[NasserAE]

I guess people now can at least understand why Apple decided to use EDGE for the 1st iPhone. 3G network, at least in the US, is not ready yet and as someone said before turn off your 3G feature.
3G is only useful for faster internet and if you need browse the internet while talking. There is no benefit of using 3G while talking (actually it drains your battery twice as fast).

Yes there is.

and that would be... ?!

From what I understood, you cannot use data and voice at the same time while on EDGE. Meaning, no safari, or mail, etc. while on a cell call. Which means no push email while talking on your phone on EDGE/GSM. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I understood it. 3G has that capability.

I already mentioned that. I know he wanted to say better sound quality. What he will fail to say is that the better 3G sound quality need the third party to be on the same network, use 3G capable device, and have 3G coverage. Furthermore, I read that most carriers limit the voice bandwidth (if that's what they call it) to get improve network capacity.

[hillstones]

Yes there is.

With 3G, your battery will drain twice as fast as 2G, so you can end those long-winded calls in half the time! That would be the benefit.

My phone calls sound great on my original iPhone in 2G, as they would using 2G on the new iPhone. Reviews stated there was an improvement in sound quality, but not a substantial improvement to always use 3G for calls.

Save your battery and save your whining and turn off 3G and save it for high speed internet. Which would you rather do, kill your battery in half a day with 3G, or enjoy the full day with plenty of battery life to spare?

Over time, AT&T's network will get beefed up and provide better support for 3G. By then, maybe they will develop a lower-power 3G radio chip that won't suck the batteries dry.

Friends at work that have 3G Blackberries turn off the 3G because they can't afford to let the battery die in 3 hours!

[hillstones]

Yes there is.

I already mentioned that. I know he wanted to say better sound quality. What he will fail to say is that the better 3G sound quality need the third party to be on the same network, use 3G capable device, and have 3G coverage. Furthermore, I read that most carriers limit the voice bandwidth (if that's what they call it) to get improve network capacity.

Not true. Reviews of the sound quality were regular phone calls to land-based lines, not cell to cell calls. They claim the sound quality was better, but not substantially better to recommend using 3G all the time. Don't know what the quality would be when a cell to cell call is made with 3G on one end and 2G on the other. But it would be safe to assume the 3G cell would remain on the 3G network while the 2G cell remained on the 2G network. The 3G phone would not drop to 2G simply because the other caller is on 2G.

Also, I don't know who would be talking on the phone, doing email and surfing the net at the same time just to take advantage of multi-tasking with 3G. If I am on the phone, I can wait to finish email or surf the net. I actually turned off the push feature on my original phone because it was annoying having it vibrate all the time whenever I got mail. I will check my mail when I am ready to check my mail.

[gmon750]

I recall reading somewhere in the past week that supposedly AT&T doesn't know how many 3G calls are getting dropped because few customers report them when they happen.

Is it worth reporting dropped calls to AT&T? If so, does anyone know the best phone # to call AT&T at to report them? (Assuming your call to them doesn't drop.... :\ )

Absolutely worth reporting dropped calls to AT&T. How would they know anything is wrong unless their customers make them aware of it? It's just the fire-and-brimstone-the-sky-is-falling vocal minority are the ones that take it to too high a volume level so that everything that comes out of their mouth is dropped - 3g pun intended. :lol:

[MFago]

Forgive the nerd-speak...

Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of Kalman Filtering, which is the best mathematical system for such estimations (if you want a book, the best is, "An Introduction to Kalman Filtering With Applications" by K.Miller and D.Leskiw - no, it's not my book).



I'd recommend "Applied Optimal Estimation" by Arthur Gelb. It's known as the "bible" in that field. Doesn't cover recent advances though.

- Matt

[solipsism]

If so, does anyone know the best phone # to call AT&T at to report them?

If you are calling your iPhone: 611, then 1, then 0 again to get operator. Have never waited more than a couple minutes.

[cy_starkman]

what's new is that prior to this info, folks wanted to bash Apple and blame the drops on bad hardware and software, even to the point of suing Apple.

but this information shows that another device on the same network is having issues so the fault is not likely to be 100% Apple but in fact part Apple and part ATT (or even all ATT).



So I have a question for Every Person commenting here. Where the heck have you been for the last month. Cruising the news wire I've sometimes felt that I was the only person on the web who had an understanding of the reality. Which is impossible since I don't even work in cellular.

[SpamSandwich]

Yay! Drop the class-action suit against Apple! Let's all sue at&t! :D

[melgross]

IPhone is a great product or concept but execution is wanting. I've had some issues with calls but frankly the cell phone component was not a big draw. What was is the portable computer / Internet access functionality. With respect to this usage the iPhone is wanting. That mostly due to bugs in all the software. The apps (mail, Safari, contacts and the like) do what I want when they don't crash. But frankly what good is an E-Mail program that crashes after two SIMPLE messages are read.

I guess that is the #1 thing that burns my behind, mail crashes when you open up nothing but simple E-Mails. It would be a bit different if the crashes happened on really complex multi media E-Mail but this is not the case at all.

Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.

Now understand these are frustrations! I now use my iPhone every day, with crashes or other issues every day. It certainly solves a need but I did expect a little better out of Apple for core functionality. The only good thing is that I have confidence that Apple will address the bugs which is more than can be said for the majority of hand set makers.

So I won't suggest to anybody not to buy an iPhone, it is a good machine but you need to be aware of the bugs. In any event I'm hoping most of these issues are dealt with before the end of next month.


Dave


The only problems I've had so far is the erratic 3G reception, and one program not behaving properly after a few days (ScoreMobile), though after a reload its been ok.

No sync issues, nothing else.

Considering that so many of these problems are not happening to everyone, just as our computer issues whenever an update or upgrade comes along are just happening to some people, I suspect that not all of it is directly related to either the phone or iTunes itself, but some other third party problems which not everyone has. Or possibly, corrupt installs.

These things do happen.

P.S This should have been posted in the early afternoon, but I couldn't get into the ---- site with the post, and had to leave until a short while ago.

[melgross]

Certainly, traffic can also be a big problem... my reasons for not believing it to be the big reason here:
- Calls dropped when sitting still during a low-volume period (with adequate tower coverage).
- Calls dropped when moving through low-call-density areas (w/ adequate coverage).
- It is a convenient problem, in terms of having a ready-made solution to present to the audience.

If it is solely a call-density/congestion/traffic problem, then at low-traffic periods people would not have problems. Question: is this the case? It sure sounds like people are having trouble all the time, and not just during peak periods of the day...

It is a convenient problem because the PR answer is: we're solving the problem - we're building more towers! It sounds like a good way to say, "no, really, we're working on it!" It's better than my more pessimistic assertion of, "it's the fatal flaw of our network that a 5th grader wrote our tracking software for his intro to c++ class. We could fix it, but we'd just be hiring another 5th grader..."

I don't mean to belittle your point at all because there certainly could be truth to it. My contention is that the problems are too pervasive, and that explanation too convenient, for it to be entirely correct. It most definitely could be part of the problem, though.

How do you know it's a low volume period? That's just supposition.

You also don't know that those are low density areas. Those areas also tend to have less towers, so the statement remains valid.

Your third statement is simply another supposition on your part made to make your argument seem correct. You don't have any idea that it reflects reality. You simply don't want to accept any of the reasons being given.

We also don't know how pervasive these problem really are. How many of the apparently 3 million plus have these problems? No one knows right now, but it's been stated that it's not much.

The explanation of tracking makes no sense when the problem occurs with a perfectly immobile phone. and don't forget that it takes three towers to properly track you, and thats used for location purposes.

I agree that location tracking can be a part of the problem, but not more than a part, perhaps not even the largest part.

You are forgetting that towers don't have perfect coverage. Often, signals weaken before another tower takes over, with its own weak signal. As you get closer to the tower the signal strengthens. If the towers are too far apart, you could lose the signal before the next tower takes over. Apparently, as AT&T have themselves said, the 3G power is being raised. This is all apart from tracking.

what's interesting is that in the middle of Manhattan, in the middle of the day, in the basement of my daughters school, where rehearsals are taking place, not only was I able to make and receive calls, but was able to use the internet as well, while two people couldn't get any signal from Verison at all. This was for two days in a row now.

[sapporobaby]

They need more towers and additional spectrum...followed by a beefier backbone.[/quote}

Which backbone are you talking about? The AU or the core network infrastructure. They could put on STM-16 and it will not necessarily help the problem.

[Quote]They can't do towers at any greater pace than they have because it's expensive but they are building out their network. The current towers are a tad too far apart but they know this and are building as fast as their pocketbook allows.

You do not always have to build towers. The sides of buildings work just as well, so do silo's, etc... 3G BTS's do not have to be as high as regular GSM towers.

Spectrum they are getting from shutting down their legacy TDMA service...giving them back the 850Mhz spectrum which should give them more building penetration capability. Coupled with the 700Mhz spectrum they purchased should fill this gap eventually.

Uhhhh...... But to use these additional spectrums, don't they need matching radios? Is there a radio in the iPhone for 700Mhz, if not your point about this makes no sense. Explain to me again, how TDMA has to do anything with WCDMA which 3G is.

Plus, as one AT&T engineer stated, they went from EDGE experts to 3G novices. This will improve naturally over time.

So things from their side will get better.

Smart money would have been better spent on hiring some Nokia or SonyEricsson engineers to show AT&T how it is done. Nokia and SE have only been doing this for years and years successfully.

Whether it gets better faster than they get more 3G users is questionable...but certainly they know what needs to be done.

Not so sure they do know what to do. AT&T seem to screw it up at every turn.

[sapporobaby]

Not true. Reviews of the sound quality were regular phone calls to land-based lines, not cell to cell calls. They claim the sound quality was better, but not substantially better to recommend using 3G all the time. Don't know what the quality would be when a cell to cell call is made with 3G on one end and 2G on the other. But it would be safe to assume the 3G cell would remain on the 3G network while the 2G cell remained on the 2G network. The 3G phone would not drop to 2G simply because the other caller is on 2G.

Also, I don't know who would be talking on the phone, doing email and surfing the net at the same time just to take advantage of multi-tasking with 3G. If I am on the phone, I can wait to finish email or surf the net. I actually turned off the push feature on my original phone because it was annoying having it vibrate all the time whenever I got mail. I will check my mail when I am ready to check my mail.

Unless the two people are sharing the same exact cell, chances are the call is going over copper anyway and breaking out at the BTS. Most cell calls transit via copper via the switch. It is a gross misperception that all calls stay in the air. They don't.

[iomatic]

I'll just go along with all the haters:

Clearly, this is the iPhone's fault.

[melgross]

I'll just go along with all the haters:

Clearly, this is the iPhone's fault.

It can't be the fault of the iPhone. The iPhone is an inanimate object. It can't be blamed for anything.