Orange admits to capping 3G speeds in France

[AppleInsider]

Following an uproar on the part of disgruntled iPhone customers, French wireless carrier Orange will reportedly raise an unpublicized cap on 3G download speeds next month.

The exclusive iPhone service provider in France began feeling the heat of irate iPhone 3G customers after several of them began comparing their download speeds on an internet forum with those achieved by users in neighboring countries.

In particular, they found that iPhone users on Germany's T-Mobile network -- recently cited as the best performing 3G network by iPhone users -- were routinely able to achieve download speeds of 1800Kbps, while those on France's Orange network struggled to reach a mere 400Kbps.

Calls began pouring into Orange's technical support lines. In some of these cases, technicians voluntarily altered the APN (Access Point Name) and other parameters tied to subscribers' iPhones. The result was a dramatic increase in speed for most of those subscribers, with some reporting that their speeds suddenly surged in excess of 3Mbps.

Almost immediately, iPhone 3G users discarded the notion of flaws in the Apple handset's hardware and began suspecting Orange of intentionally capping 3G download speeds. Many were furious, arguing that artificial limitation was in direct violation of the service agreements shared between the carrier and its iPhone customers, which theoretically should have allowed HSDPA speeds approaching 7.2Mbps. A petition was also formed.

A video comparing an uncapped iPhone 3G to an capped iPhone 3G on the Orange network

When contacted by FranceInfo, an Orange representative reportedly confirmed that that the carrier has been deliberately limiting speeds for all 3G capable phones on its network to 384Kbps, saying the move was aimed at 'preserving the stability of the network.'

Following a meeting on Monday at its Paris headquarters, Orange said it will raise the download cap for iPhone users from 384Kbps to 1Mbps by September 15th. [ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=4536)

[stukdog]

It's amazing how much cell companies get away with around the world. False advertising, price gouging, and breaking contracts.

How much longer until some serious change? I thought Apple was going to provoke it when they first released with AT&T, but now even Apple has fallen in line.

[macapptraining]

iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep. It's sad. But this should get the cell companies in gear to improve their speeds, availability.

[bigmc6000]

I suppose their only saving grace is that they did it for all the phones and not just the iPhone. I wonder however - have they had many/any problems with dropped calls etc in France? Isn't it quite possible that the whole of 3G users have a better general overall experience with 3G because the lines aren't being maxed out?

[Abster2core]

Following an uproar on the part of disgruntled iPhone customers, French wireless carrier Orange will reportedly raise an unpublicized cap on 3G download speeds next month.

The exclusive iPhone service provider in France began feeling the heat of irate iPhone 3G customers after several of them began

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.

I did comment on a previous discussion that my carrier has capped and is gradually increasing the level to ensure stability. Right now my test run is showing nearly 1500kbps.

I would also suggest that some due diligence on how wireless works would help to negate some of the comments that are being stated on the subject. Anybody who knows anything about the factors that can affect cell service will appreciate the issues that cell phone manufacturers, carriers and users come up against.

Dropped calls for example are a fact of life no matter where you are. Even on the space shuttle! And if you still need more proof, go down to your local VFW or American Legion hall and ask the vets about dropped calls.

Here is a great read on the subject: http://www.phonedog.com/cell-phone-research/blog/why-does-my-cell-phone-drop-calls.aspx.

And one more point, cell phone manufacturers and carriers have to go through extensive testing under some of the most stringent standards in the world, e.g., as set by the US FCC. Sure when you manufacture millions of units at a time, some will fail at times. But then don't we all.

Perhaps we can save ourselves from looking stupid, just by doing some homework.

[jfanning]

iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep.

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

[Abster2core]

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Could you please elaborate and supply references?

[JeffDM]

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.

I did comment on a previous discussion that my carrier has capped and is gradually increasing the level to ensure stability. Right now my test run is showing nearly 1500kbps.


I thought you said that they had all of this calculated ahead of time.

[solipsism]

I would suggest that this is not unique to Orange.
O2 was capping some iPhone users to 128kbps last year. I'm not sure if it was on purpose or by accident but I agree that this probably more common than we realise.

I wonder if we'll see more carrier testing coming out now that iPhone 3G is in over 40 countries and has a better browser than other phones for doing a quick bandwidth test. "3G-gate scandal"?

Perhaps we can save ourselves from looking stupid, just doing some homework.
These forums would be empty if we all thought before we wrote. :p

[jfanning]

Could you please elaborate and supply references?

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

[CREB]

Providers run caps for a reason...I am surprised people here have not figured it out. There are also agreements between service providers and mobile phone providers for various aspects that will affect speeds.

[bigmc6000]

Could you please elaborate and supply references?
I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry ;)

[jfanning]

I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry ;)

Fast processor, leads to faster battery drain...

But still, that wasn't the statement they made, they said "Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep.".

That has nothing to do with processing power of the device.

[nagromme]

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?sample=17&qprid=42&qpcustom=iPhone

I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that all that browsing, unprecedented for a phone, plus app downloads, relies heavily on the network. And that carriers may be having trouble keeping up with that sudden increase.

[BlackSummerNight]

The processor isn't running at at full speed, the iPhone processor is scaled back. Go check your phone.
I wouldn't bother with that conversation - we've already had the discussion that the iPhone has, by far, the fastest processor of any smart phone currently available (the Bold is going to have a 624 but that's assuming they don't scale it back) so you're right - don't worry ;)
I hope you really do know that there are phones that have been available that have much faster 3G.

[solipsism]

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

The iPhone has Infineon radios capable fo 7.2Mbps downstream. This is pretty standard. The only commonly released 3G devices that have the 14.4Mbps downstream are in EC or USB sticks for computers. They require more power and are larger so they are no go for most phone needs, though Korea may be using some there. Not to mention that only a handful or carriers, at most, currently support more than 7.2Mbps.

So if they all have the same bandwidth capabilities what facts do you have to back up that "other phones [are] more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone"?

[BlackSummerNight]

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?
Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?sample=17&qprid=42&qpcustom=iPhone

I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that all that browsing, unprecedented for a phone, plus app downloads, relies heavily on the network. And that carriers may be having trouble keeping up with that sudden increase.

[Abster2core]

I thought you said that they had all of this calculated ahead of time.

Could you please elaborate? Calculated what ahead of time?

Thank you

[jfanning]

So if they all have the same bandwidth capabilities what facts do you have to back up that "other phones [are] more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone."

Because you can tether other phones via BT to a PC, or other device and download as much stuff as you like.

That is a fact, you do not have to install a 3rd party hack to do this

And don't say this is a violation of your AT&T agreement, I don't live in the US, so don't care about that.

[BlackSummerNight]

Regardless of which phone is the fastest... it's should be criminal for any carrier to do this. I wonder is ATT is doing the same thing.

[jfanning]

Yes, it IS ahead of other devices, and pushing more data as a result. "Ahead" doesn't mean some arbitrary theoretical maximum throughput, it means ACTUAL data usage. What's "ahead" is the usability of the device: OS and software, especially the browser. Look at browser usage stats and you'll see that iPhone users make up the biggest chunk of mobile phone browsing, despite being only a small slice of phone ownership. People CAN transfer data with other phones, but they ARE transferring far more with iPhones.


That only means they are using the device itself, if you tether the phone you can transfer data from other devices, which people have been doing for a number of years.

[Abster2core]

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.

[Abster2core]

Because you can tether other phones via BT to a PC, or other device and download as much stuff as you like.

That is a fact, you do not have to install a 3rd party hack to do this

And don't say this is a violation of your AT&T agreement, I don't live in the US, so don't care about that.

What third party hack? And don't say NetShare. It doesn't fill the nomenclature.

[JeffDM]

Could you please elaborate? Calculated what ahead of time?

Thank you

Data usage ahead of the rollout.

[nagromme]

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?

No. I think they are using it in ADDITION to all other devices. Thus the increase.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are using it more than tethering: tethering is an expensive additional service that most people don't bother with, while iPhone browsing and app downloads are an everyday-consumer activity. But I have no data on that. It wouldn't surprise me either if tethering was the bigger usage.

On top of which, the iPhone has added a big surge of traffic.

[solipsism]

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?
I think the stats specifically record browser stats, not the ISP, so tethering would through things off. Either way, the point is that even on EDGE the iPhone's Safari, display size and UI made using the internet a viable option. Something that all manufacturers realised was now a requirement. well, at least the ones that want to stay competitive.

The processor isn't running at at full speed, the iPhone processor is scaled back. Go check your phone.
He's ahead of the curve in knowing that the BB Bold will have a 624MHz CPU and realises that it will probably be underclocked, so it's a safe bet that he know the iPhone is underclocked from 620Mhz to 412MHz.

I hope you really do know that there are phones that have been available that have much faster 3G.
I'm curious to know which phones are these. I think Korea is your best bet for finding a phone with a 3G radio faster than 7.2Mbps.

[jfanning]

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.

I think if you read the other messages in this thread you would know the answer to this.

Smartphones (and other models as well) from other cell phone manufactures provide the ability to tether their phones to computers, tablets etc.

With these devices you can transfer a lot more data than you can with an iPhone.

For that link, look at the various E, and N series phones. Others will support it as well.

[cognominal]

I hope that Apple has contractual agreements with the providers to oblige them to give uncapped 3G. Otherwise, they should lose exclusivity which is is a scandal to begin with. Exclusivity deals permit to hide the true price of the iphone. I hope that Europe will twist the arm of Apple to drop these exclusive deals so one can choose the best bandwidth provider.

Probably Apple has taken the fall for 3G shortcomings because it has agreements to sign with new providers, so it has to play nice with them. Later, Apple will put the screw on them for them to to comply.

Anyway, I think that a smart phone available everywhere is also a good way to compare the providers so that eventually they can honestly compete. Unlike Internet so far, the mobile telephony is a world where users are sheep to be shaved.

[solipsism]

What do you actually mean when you stated, "…there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone?"

Right now, this simply tells me that you can't get as much data down on the iPhone as you can on other cell phones.

And your reference is too ambiguous. Please be more specific. Thank you.
I think I need to put him on my ignore list; he says one thing then says he meant something else. He commented about bandwidth is in one sense and now he's referring not to the transmission capacity, but to the overall data usage over a predetermined amount of time. Seriously nerve racking!

What third party hack? And don't say NetShare. It doesn't fill the nomenclature.
By 3rd-party I think he is referring to a comment i amde last week about being able to tether your iPhone if it's jailbroken.

[Abster2core]

I think if you read the other messages in this thread you would know the answer to this.

Smartphones (and other models as well) from other cell phone manufactures provide the ability to tether their phones to computers, tablets etc.

With these devices you can transfer a lot more data than you can with an iPhone.

For that link, look at the various E, and N series phones. Others will support it as well.

So you are telling me that using NetShare on my iPhone for example as I am now, that I cannot get as much data on my Macbook Pro vs another phone.

By the way, do you pay anything for tethering where you live? I don't with my iPhone.

[jfanning]

So you are telling me that using NetShare on my iPhone for example as I am now, that I cannot get as much data on my Macbook Pro vs another phone.

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?

[jfanning]

I think I need to put him on my ignore list; he says one thing then says he meant something else. He commented about bandwidth is in one sense and now he's referring not to the transmission capacity, but to the overall data usage over a predetermined amount of time. Seriously nerve racking!


Go ahead, I won't lose any sleep over it, and I don't really care how you understand my posts. You are too much of a fan boy to listen to anyone elses point of view, it is pretty obvious that you believe that everything that apple makes is perfect and there can be no other way.


By 3rd-party I think he is referring to a comment i amde last week about being able to tether your iPhone if it's jailbroken.

Well it isn't made by Apple, so that makes it a 3rd party hack doesn't it?!?

[bigmc6000]

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?
As solipism pointed out the iPhone 3G chip is 7.2 mbps while there might be a few 14.4's out there it's quite rare. And really, get over the tethering argument - if processor speed, rendering ability, and RAM had nothing to do with a computers capable download speed then virtually no one would get new computers as 10 year old boxes would be able to surf as fast as new ones.

When not tethering (which I know this might come as a shock to you but most people *dont* tether) and just surfing the web, downloading mail, watching YouTube the only ones that can handle more data are the 14.4's but, again, as solipism said those are very, very few and far between.

[bigmc6000]

Go ahead, I won't lose any sleep over it, and I don't really care how you understand my posts. You are too much of a fan boy to listen to anyone elses point of view, it is pretty obvious that you believe that everything that apple makes is perfect and there can be no other way.

if he's a fan boy and then you are the anti-fan boy. You do nothing but complain about the Apple products and even when faced with obvious truth (surfing on the iPhone is faster than any 7.2's, the iPhone has the fastest processor of any mobile out there right now) you quibble and go after another argument - lately it's this tethering argument.

[Abster2core]

Data usage ahead of the rollout.

Hi Jeff.

Your question related to a comment of mine re download speed which as you know is entirely different from data usage.

What I did say about data usage, was that Rogers based their Data Usage amount/prices on information from AT&T re average monthly consumption per iPhone user in the US, which was 100MBs per month.

Based on that information, Rogers, unlike AT&T's unlimited program, issued a Data Plan charging $30 for 400Mbs and claimed that it was more the sufficient for the average user. At that point, my position as a researcher/scientist, was basically in agreement, since there was no empirical data to show or argue otherwise.

Now that I have gotten my first Rogers' bill, and based on the fact that there is no other evidence to support to support to the contrary, it appears that Rogers' first declarations were in fact correct.

Gladly, I may add, I am currently getting great speed via 3G, up to 1500kbs which is about 10-Xs faster than my EDGE service and with the understanding that it is capped while being tested to ensure stability as more users come on board. As my father used to say, "You don't destroy a house for the sake of one brick."

Perhaps we should all step back a bit and realize that wireless is like speaking into the wind. And there is a lot of it here.

[Abster2core]

So if I was to go out and purchase an iPhone today, without hacking the phone, how do I tether it to another device?

Normally, I would gladly send you a copy. But my better judgement, your lousy attitude and my penchant to be a prick at times dictates otherwise.

[nagromme]

Quibbling over paper technical numbers aside, my understanding of jfanning's point is that the iPhone is NOT causing carriers to experience an increase in usage of the Internet. He was replying to macapptraining's comment:

"iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep [up]."

jfanning disagreed with that, and while I don't get the relevance of most of the points that followed, I am still convinced that he's wrong about his basic point. The iPhone IS causing heavier usage of mobile Internet, and I don't see how that can be debated.

You could still debate that the carriers are having no problems handling the increased 3G data traffic (the second part of macapptraining's assertion), but even that seems far-fetched to me. There seems to be ample evidence that the carriers are--in some regions--either HAVING trouble or CAUSING trouble with their Internet and 3G traffic (see also Wired's informal data rate map, and the story on recent BlackBerry 3G problems).

But even if the carriers ARE keeping up, there's no denying the basic fact that the iPhone has increased data usage over pre-iPhone levels.

Maybe jfanning just needs to clarify why he objects to macapptraining's statement. Maybe he thinks the iPhone is not "ahead" in any way that affects Internet usage?

But clearly, the ways the iPhone is "ahead" (usability, especially the browser) DO affect Internet usage. Talk of spec numbers can't change that reality.

So I still don't understand jfanning's original point about macapptraining's statement. (If we understood, we might realize we all agree with him!)

[solipsism]

.... and Nagromme brings balance back to the thread. Good show!

[JeffDM]

Hi Jeff.

Your question related to a comment of mine re download speed which as you know is entirely different from data usage.

What I did say about data usage, was that Rogers based their Data Usage amount/prices on information from AT&T re average monthly consumption per iPhone user in the US, which was 100MBs per month.

The thing is, I would think that they could use that data to predict total network usage of all users.

Gladly, I may add, I am currently getting great speed via 3G, up to 1500kbs which is about 10-Xs faster than my EDGE service and with the understanding that it is capped while being tested to ensure stability as more users come on board. As my father used to say, "You don't destroy a house for the sake of one brick."

Perhaps we should all step back a bit and realize that wireless is like speaking into the wind. And there is a lot of it here.

It may be all over now, but the reasons for initial throttling seem fishy to me. Not only that, the internet companies have ways to manage data use at peak times so as to prevent network problems, it seems silly to me that the cellular companies don't have similar means without resorting to arbitrary continuous rate caps.

[quinney]

I hope that Apple has contractual agreements with the providers to oblige them to give uncapped 3G.

If the flaky behavior is truly related to inadequate capacity, that would lead to an
interesting dilemma. Cap the 3G speed and have more reliable but slower connections
vs. uncap the 3G speed and have faster but less reliable connections. Which alternative
is better for iPhone users?

[solipsism]

If the flaky behavior is truly related to inadequate capacity, that would lead to an
interesting dilemma. Cap the 3G speed and have more reliable but slower connections
vs. uncap the 3G speed and have faster but less reliable connections. Which alternative
is better for iPhone users?
Interesting thought. That would make for a good survey. We are familiar with Cable and Fiber being capped. We know that the speeds we get from those broadband services can be much faster.

I'd say that it would be in Apple's and AT&T's (can't speak for other carriers) best interest to offer a cap in areas where the number of users are uncommonly high. Like NYC! Not only is the iPhone being used more than other 3G phones, but there is plenty of evidence that it's also pulling many people into the smartphone market (which includes people going for Nokia and RiM smartphones because of the iPhone lifting the veil-of-geekiness from these previously non-user friendly devices).

I'd think that those who are being dropped regularly from 1Mbps to 200kbps would much rather have a steady 500kbps until the network data and connection capabilities can get appropriately increased.

[Rot'nApple]

Do you think that more people are using the iPhone's 3G network over all other 3G enabled phones, which many offer tethering support?

I, personally, wouldn't say more people are using iPhone 3G network over ALL other 3G enabled phones, but rather would say, I would think, more people are enjoying the iPhone's 3G network (when it is not overloaded and runs at poor speeds) for use of such thing as browsing the web on the phone and getting the same results on my screen as would be needed by some other smart phone that has to be tethered to a pc to get the same effect, if that is the reasoning for tethering, which if that is required to web browse, then how smart are those other 3G enabled phones?

[nagromme]

It seems perfectly plausible to me that if a carrier siimply CANNOT meet the bandwidth demand, then a trade-off between speed and reliability might have to be made, until the network can be approved.

In which case, Orange may not have made a bad choice in the short term. Now, it's still a shame to have been faced with the choice in the first place! No matter what the trade-off, customers have a legitimate complaint.

[BlackSummerNight]

I would agree that more people are using the iPhone for browsing. I use my WM phone for browsing, but I use the tether option for Bit Torrent, iTunes, and other programs that can't be done over the phone. No doubt that the combination of the iPhone screen and the Safari browser, more people are using it to do simple browsing. I just figured (no mathmatical equations or research done) that people would have already been stressing the 3G network.
I, personally, wouldn't say more people are using iPhone 3G network over ALL other 3G enabled phones, but rather would say, I would think, more people are enjoying the iPhone's 3G network (when it is not overloaded and runs at poor speeds) for use of such thing as browsing the web on the phone and getting the same results on my screen as would be needed by some other smart phone that has to be tethered to a pc to get the same effect, if that is the reasoning for tethering, which if that is required to web browse, then how smart are those other 3G enabled phones?

[nvidia2008]

Why am I not surprised? Why do these retard phone companies get away with this bullsh1t???? And they wonder why WAP was such an epic failure... for example. They need to seriously GET A CLUE.

[nvidia2008]

Perhaps these phone companies finally realised, either a hell of a lot of people bought an iPhone 3G, or, nobody was really using 3G *that much* with the other phones. MMS? Video calling? Nokia N series? Maybe there weren't that many or they just didn't use that much bandwidth (because apps weren't as good???) ...Well, now the telcos' 3G infrastructure is getting hammered.

I would agree that more people are using the iPhone for browsing. I use my WM phone for browsing, but I use the tether option for Bit Torrent, iTunes, and other programs that can't be done over the phone. No doubt that the combination of the iPhone screen and the Safari browser, more people are using it to do simple browsing. I just figured (no mathmatical equations or research done) that people would have already been stressing the 3G network.

[Abster2core]

The thing is, I would think that they could use that data to predict total network usage of all users.

It may be all over now, but the reasons for initial throttling seem fishy to me. Not only that, the internet companies have ways to manage data use so as to prevent network problems, it seems silly to me that the cellular companies don't have similar means without resorting to rate caps.

Having served time in the signal corps contacting and trying to maintain a connection from one squad to another was hard enough. Now we are talking hundreds of thousands of new users virtually instantaneously, not all in the same place and not all at the same time everytime.

Cripes, even NASA has had problems re wireless with the Space Shuttle. And visit your local Legion or VFW post and let the vets relate their experience.

I, for one, find it totally understandable that carriers would not be able to simulate network demands under such immediate and extremely heavy demands. We are not talking about a single system to connect to, but a number of them with physical variables both intrinsic and extrinsic to deal with. So far, Rogers, which I have been informed is maxed to 7, but currently has capped it between 3-4. Gradually opening the tap and slowly getting drunk is far better that drowning in ones or worse everybody elses regurgitations.

How you can say it sounds fishy and at the same time claim that internet companies have ways to manage data is beyond me. Unless you are telling me that you never lost an internet connection, or better yet, everybody is getting 100% satisfaction surfing and transferring data via their pcs. I don't think so.

It is interesting that you also say that carriers could use that (AT&T) data to predict total network usage of all users. Yet, when Rogers attempted to justify not offering an unlimited data plan but one the was more indicative of actual usage, and thus charging the user for usage per se, that the din it generated was deafening. As such, to appease the masses, Rogers succumbed and upped the quantity.

For sure I am happy to benefit from the new offering. However, I am glad it wasn't the 1880's when such a move might have gotten somebody hanged because misinformation prevailed.

As I said, I don't think that capping is unique to Orange. More important, we should perhaps reflect on previous positions that 3G was the salvation, not only to wireless communication, but for the iPhone in particular. As is now being evidenced, not every other country in this world has far exceeded the US or Canada in this technology.

[wbrasington]

Because you can tether other phones via BT to a PC, or other device and download as much stuff as you like.

That is a fact, you do not have to install a 3rd party hack to do this

And don't say this is a violation of your AT&T agreement, I don't live in the US, so don't care about that.

Tethering a phone doesn't allow it to handle more data.
Get real, or get lost.

[nvidia2008]

...As I said, I don't think that capping is unique to Orange. More important, we should perhaps reflect on previous positions that 3G was the salvation, not only to wireless communication, but for the iPhone in particular. As is now being evidenced, not every other country in this world has far exceeded the US or Canada in this technology.

Indeed. What I think many people need to do is go back to the drawing board in some way.

Let's look at 2000-2005 which was a heady, intense period for fixed-line broadband. Heck, in 2000 PacificBell took over 3 months to connect up DSL to my San Fran city apartment.

To this date, fixed-line broadband faces challenges with capacity, users, etc. etc. But after a few years, the latter part of this decade has led to generally improved service.

Telcos and other players need to look long and hard at what everyone has learnt from the fixed-line scenario. Because in several years time, having a "fixed line broadband" could be as "odd" as having a fixed telephone line, in many countries around the world.

What's the situation with 4G, 5G, and WiMax? What's on the horizon? When the iPhone 4G comes out, how will the companies be prepared? I'm curious...

Apple should just be the Tyrell Corporation of this century. Power, telco, IT, heck, they make nice devices, wouldn't mind some Apple-designed replicants... Might be better neighbours.

[NasserAE]

I think if you read the other messages in this thread you would know the answer to this.

Smartphones (and other models as well) from other cell phone manufactures provide the ability to tether their phones to computers, tablets etc.

With these devices you can transfer a lot more data than you can with an iPhone.

For that link, look at the various E, and N series phones. Others will support it as well.

The difference is clear. For every 1 million iPhone sold there are one million iPhone users guaranteed to surf the web using 3G if available without the need of tethering (meaning more time using the internet on the train, bus, in the bathroom... etc).

Your argument is flawed since you can only get the most of other phones capabilities by using them as modems!!

[wbrasington]

The difference is clear. For every 1 million iPhone sold there is one million iPhone user guaranteed to surf the web using 3G if available without the need of tethering (meaning more time using the internet on the train, bus, in the bathroom... etc).

Your argument is flawed since you can only get the most of other phone capabilities by using them as a modems!!

Pretty funny.

What are we supposed to believe, the iPhone is a bad phone because you can't add a two thousand dollar lap computer tethered to it to surf the web?

Tethering a cellphone to a lap computer allows the LAP computer to access more data.
The cell phone can access the same amount of data, at the same speed. The lap computer doesn't change the speed of the radio in the cellphone, it doesn't change the frequency of the cell phone, it doesn't change the cell phone's data throughput in any way. The ONLY thing the laptop does is supply a disk drive and for THAT you could use the cloud.

The LAPTOP can access more data if IT IS tethered, the cell phone just gets more expensive to have to do that. If you buy a NICE laptop, you don't need to tether it or plug anything into it because it talks to the cell tower itself.

Lame..... lame.... lame...... same old lame stuff we're hearing.
Next thing we'll hear, if the iPhone could tether it would solve the cut-copy-paste capability because you could do that on the laptop......:lol::no::wow:

[BlackSummerNight]

I don't think that he was meaning to say it can handle more date. But when tethering, you have the ability to simulate more traffic.....much more than just browsing and watching Youtube.
Tethering a phone doesn't allow it to handle more data.
Get real, or get lost.

[mirak63]

If the flaky behavior is truly related to inadequate capacity, that would lead to an
interesting dilemma. Cap the 3G speed and have more reliable but slower connections
vs. uncap the 3G speed and have faster but less reliable connections. Which alternative
is better for iPhone users?

The best alternative is the one we paid for, and for what they are advertising.
Not something else ...

[wbrasington]

I don't think that he was meaning to say it can handle more date. But when tethering, you have the ability to simulate more traffic.....much more than just browsing and watching Youtube.

That makes even less sense.
Why would running youtube on my laptop handle different data than youtube on my phone?
This only makes sense to people with a phone that can't really do the internet, a phone that only does cut down hacked web viewing stuff. For THAT kind of phone, you need the laptop to give you a real browser.
Sine the iPhone gives you a realistic view of the internet, it isn't required to drag around your laptop so as to surf the web.
Of course, if you want to visit flash sites, then you need an expensive laptop and tethering.
Since I disable flash on my laptop, I have no real advantage on my laptop over my phone other than screen size. Certainly, tethering doesn't "allow my phone to handle more data".

[JeffDM]

How you can say it sounds fishy and at the same time claim that internet companies have ways to manage data is beyond me. Unless you are telling me that you never lost an internet connection,

I don't remember ever losing a connection because of excessive demand clogging the tubes. It just got slower, that's all.

or better yet, everybody is getting 100% satisfaction surfing and transferring data via their pcs. I don't think so.

I didn't say that.

I have had other problems with internet services, but they weren't because of excess user demand.

[samab]

It's amazing how much cell companies get away with around the world. False advertising, price gouging, and breaking contracts.

How much longer until some serious change? I thought Apple was going to provoke it when they first released with AT&T, but now even Apple has fallen in line.

The most important words --- "around the world".

American carriers get a lot of flak for "falling behind" many European countries in terms of 3G, lineline broadband, fiber to the homes....

The truth is that many European carriers lied about their networks in their advertisements.

American carriers are pretty clear about their advertised speeds --- both AT&T and Verizon advertised both the peak speed and average speed of their 3G networks (average 3G speed being around 700 kbps to 1000 kbps). European carriers will lie and say that their networks as 7.2 mbps (some even advertising it as a 14 mbps network). It's the same 3G network --- just different ways of advertising it.

Same thing with broadband speed --- a lot of people like to talk about how the US is falling behind everybody in broadband speed. The fact is that carriers around the world just lie about their broadband speed.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/19/ofcom_panel_speed_code/

[quinney]

The best alternative is the one we paid for, and for what they are advertising.
Not something else ...

Obviously, but if that one is not currently available, which of the alternatives
(which might be currently possible) would users prefer?

[Abster2core]

I don't remember ever losing a connection because of excessive demand clogging the tubes. It just got slower, that's all.

I didn't say that.

I have had other problems with internet services, but they weren't because of excess user demand.

My experience is otherwise. Although I do admit that it is better. In particular my own service is running at 9MBs, which is one reason I am not moving.

However, we are not talking about land lines. Wireless is separate issue, which by nature is affected by more factors than a squirrel nibbling through a Category 5 Cable.

[BlackSummerNight]

Can u use bit torrent on your iPhone and get a connection up to 600k and keep it up for hours at a time?
That makes even less sense.
Why would running youtube on my laptop handle different data than youtube on my phone?
This only makes sense to people with a phone that can't really do the internet, a phone that only does cut down hacked web viewing stuff. For THAT kind of phone, you need the laptop to give you a real browser.
Sine the iPhone gives you a realistic view of the internet, it isn't required to drag around your laptop so as to surf the web.
Of course, if you want to visit flash sites, then you need an expensive laptop and tethering.
Since I disable flash on my laptop, I have no real advantage on my laptop over my phone other than screen size. Certainly, tethering doesn't "allow my phone to handle more data".
I've downloaded over 8G in one month via tethering. This was before the cap was replaced, using a lowly old Samsung Blackjack.

[jfanning]

if he's a fan boy and then you are the anti-fan boy. You do nothing but complain about the Apple products and even when faced with obvious truth (surfing on the iPhone is faster than any 7.2's, the iPhone has the fastest processor of any mobile out there right now) you quibble and go after another argument - lately it's this tethering argument.

Yes you have got me, I am really anti Apple, I better sell my three Macs, and my five iPods since I have such a hatred for the company

[jfanning]

iPhone is still ahead of the times... Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep. It's sad. But this should get the cell companies in gear to improve their speeds, availability.

ok, since everyone is bitching I will explain what I meant, in relation to the original message I replied to.

Let's break it down...

iPhone is still ahead of the times...

Actually that's impossible

Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g, the cell companies can't keep.

Well yes, I agree, the iPhone does rely heavily on its internet connection, it can't connect to the internet without it.

3G? I'm not sure, there seems to be a lot of moaning on these forums regarding its ability to handle 3G properly. Of course the 3G on the iPhone is handling both voice and data, and numerous people are saying to switch back to GSM, perhaps we will forget about the 3G bit this time around.

The cell companies can't keep.. I will assume there has to be an 'up' at the end of that sentence, I know we shouldn't assume, but I will in this case.

Now, I live in a European country (by membership if people want to argue the toss about it), but I am not from one. Ireland has had mobile networks for a number of years, so has my home country, both have been handling CSD for a long time, GPRS for at over 8 years, and 3G for a number of years now.

All these data methods have been used, from the device itself, or tethered for a long, long time.

To imply that the addition of 2 million devices, in an annual market of 1.2 billion devices is going to make the networks fall to their knees is a little naive.

In saying that, these network providers also have networks they have invested a massive amount of money into, they will want to place limits to ensure the service is available for everyone, they are not going to spend extra providing bandwidth if they don't have to.


It's sad.


It is.


But this should get the cell companies in gear to improve their speeds, availability.

Why? There are lot of people using 3G devices happily now, either the device itself, or tether to other devices with a larger screen than the standard cellphone, other devices (cameras, machinery etc).

'macapptraining' referred to the device putting through a lot of data (well that what I assumed they meant with the 'Relying so heavily on the Internet connection and 3g'). I never said anything about the processor speed of the iPhone, or the speed of the iPhones 3G chipset (which is a moot point as there is so many complaints about both, infact are we not commenting on a thread regarding a provider limiting the speed on their 3G network, so the chips speed is irreverent.

Now, putting through more data. The iPhone can browse the web, it can stream approved data with approved applications from the App Store. It can download email.

There is a number of things you cannot do on it, which you can from a tethered device, say download flash animations, connect to the App Store and download apps that Apple will not allow OTA, video conference, run voip apps.

I could name a number of devices that could put through a lot of data (the GSM ones are gone from my memory, it has been a very long time since I used them for data). You could list the Ericcson R520 for GPRS, the N95, my E65, the N96 etc etc.

They might have a slower 3G chip than the iPhone, but it certainly doesn't mean they will not transfer as much, if not more data

[jfanning]

That makes even less sense.
Why would running youtube on my laptop handle different data than youtube on my phone?


Well it depends on what phone it is, since the iPhone doesn't support flash

[jfanning]

jfanning disagreed with that, and while I don't get the relevance of most of the points that followed, I am still convinced that he's wrong about his basic point. The iPhone IS causing heavier usage of mobile Internet, and I don't see how that can be debated.


You can't, that is't what I was saying. And it is more than just mobile internet, it is mobile data.


You could still debate that the carriers are having no problems handling the increased 3G data traffic (the second part of macapptraining's assertion), but even that seems far-fetched to me. There seems to be ample evidence that the carriers are--in some regions--either HAVING trouble or CAUSING trouble with their Internet and 3G traffic (see also Wired's informal data rate map, and the story on recent BlackBerry 3G problems).


bolded, as that is the main point to remember, in some regions. Maybe the region they have sold the most in???


Maybe jfanning just needs to clarify why he objects to macapptraining's statement. Maybe he thinks the iPhone is not "ahead" in any way that affects Internet usage?


I have...

[nagromme]

I have...

You've said things in many directions... but none of them counter to the post you were originally objecting to :D An interesting exercise nonetheless. Some interesting tangents sprouted off.

Well it depends on what phone it is, since the iPhone doesn't support flash

Good point--for YouTube, a tethered laptop doesn't have as much data to deal with as an iPhone does. A laptop running Flash-based YouTube is streaming less data than an iPhone running the higher-quality AVC-based YouTube streams. Two different YouTube data sources! Unless of course the HTML comments are bigger than the video files ;)

[hillstones]

Well I would say all the phones that support 3G, and BT.

A couple of examples are at http://www.nokia.eu

Well now that is a BS reference. Sorry, that doesn't back up your point at all. Different phones, different networks. None of them are perfect. There are plenty of iPhone 3G owners that are happy with their purchase and the phone works as advertised. There are also some that are not receiving a 3G signal, but it looks more to be a network issue, rather than hardware. AT&T was working to build up their 3G coverage, obviously it is not satisfactory in all areas. However, every iPhone 3G commercial clearly states "3G not available in all areas."

[iPeon]

It is not, there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

Even if true, it's meaningless. That something is capable of doing something proves nothing. Are such capabilities being used? How often? By how many people? The iPhone is the first to make such difference. We are talking about full blown web pages being accessed on every iPhone, not to mention it's other features that transfer data on the network. One can't help but utilized the network with the iPhone.

How much more data is being transferred on the network now when compared to what it was prior to the iPhone? That's the question.

[jfanning]

Well now that is a BS reference. Sorry, that doesn't back up your point at all. Different phones, different networks. None of them are perfect.

I don't understand you, yes they are different phones, but different network? If you looked at the site you would see they are GSM/3G phones, which will run on the network you are using an iPhone on...

[jfanning]

How much more data is being transferred on the network now when compared to what it was prior to the iPhone? That's the question.

Which network? There are quite a few outside the USA

[jfanning]

Good point--for YouTube, a tethered laptop doesn't have as much data to deal with as an iPhone does. A laptop running Flash-based YouTube is streaming less data than an iPhone running the higher-quality AVC-based YouTube streams. Two different YouTube data sources! Unless of course the HTML comments are bigger than the video files ;)

Well YouTube is one example, personally I use it that much, I find the video quality quite poor (even the 'higher-quality' AVC ones you mention).

There are many sites that implement flash animations on them, if you go to one on your iPhone it will not load. Same with Java applications, same with alot of video formats I imagine, how does the iPhone handle WMV files?

[wbrasington]

Can u use bit torrent on your iPhone and get a connection up to 600k and keep it up for hours at a time?

I've downloaded over 8G in one month via tethering. This was before the cap was replaced, using a lowly old Samsung Blackjack.

So I guess you're saying that your lowly old Samsung Blackjack could handle 8G in one month because it was tethered to a laptop, and if it wasn't tethered to a laptop then it could not handle as much data. (less that 8G)

Again, that makes no sense to me as I can see no way the laptop can result in increased data capabilities OF THE PHONE.

Maybe Samsung has found a way for the laptop to boost the cell phones reception....:wow::no:

[wbrasington]

Well it depends on what phone it is, since the iPhone doesn't support flash

That is true.
If you don't use the iPhone, you have a lot of sights that you can't really get to because the browser isn't real.
But we all know you fix that problem by carrying around your big bulky laptop tethered to your phone so you can use a real browser and have enough CPU to see the flash version of youtube.....

[Abster2core]

Following an uproar on the part of disgruntled iPhone customers, French wireless carrier Orange will reportedly raise an unpublicized cap on 3G download speeds next month.

Getting better. 1743kbps this morning on 3G.

[jfanning]

Again, that makes no sense to me as I can see no way the laptop can result in increased data capabilities OF THE PHONE.

You are confusing things, it has nothing to do with speed, it is the amount of data being transfered

[jfanning]

That is true.
If you don't use the iPhone, you have a lot of sights that you can't really get to because the browser isn't real.
But we all know you fix that problem by carrying around your big bulky laptop tethered to your phone so you can use a real browser and have enough CPU to see the flash version of youtube.....

What do you mean by 'not real'?

What is a real browser?

And I don't have a laptop (my daughter has a Mac Book, and I didn't think it was that bulky, maybe it is). I used my N800, I can tether that to a phone, or use WiFi. It has what I would call a real browser, and it supports flash, it also has a number of other 'internet' applications available for it.

And as I have said, I don't like You Tube, there is only so many videos of a cat you can watch...

[nagromme]

Well YouTube is one example, personally I use it that much, I find the video quality quite poor (even the 'higher-quality' AVC ones you mention).

There are many sites that implement flash animations on them, if you go to one on your iPhone it will not load. Same with Java applications, same with alot of video formats I imagine, how does the iPhone handle WMV files?

It seems like you might be hopping from excuse to excuse ( http://homepage.mac.com/bhoglund/forumFudsters.html ), looking for anything to mention that implies fault with the iPhone, rather than actually following any one argument through? ;)

You are right, some sites use plugins the iPhone doesn't have. On the flip side, just about ANY site gives a substandard experience on any phone BUT an iPhone. And other phones have Flash Lite, which is not at all the same thing as full Flash capable of accessing Flash web sites. Full Flash is inefficient and unsuitable for mobile use, and if Adobe gets that worked out then I expect the iPhone will benefit. Meanwhile Java has real problems--it's a mobile technology worth avoiding in many ways, and not one I come across online these days much at all. But even if Java-based web sites are important, you surely are not suggesting that other phones' browsers deliver a great experience of Java-based web apps. I'm sure most don't even run. So no phone is a great browser for Flash and Java web sites currently. Some do better than others. Your combination of a phone plus an N800 (full Flash) is neat in some ways, I won't deny. I wouldn't want to give up iPhone's browser and have to lug two devices, but it's a fine option for some. You may need sites that are heavily Flash-based. In my own usage I find that rare outside of games--and I have better ways to game on iPhone.

Regardless, how does that plugin question support your thesis that the carriers are not to blame for iPhone data rates?

I want to understand your point, but it seems more and more like random trolling instead--or else looking for a reason not to wish you had an iPhone. So, by all means, run with the Java and Flash discussion if you feel moved to :) And don't worry about not having an iPhone--enjoy what you have, and others will enjoy their iPhones.

For any who are interested: a video comparing a couple mobile browsers including the N800 (Opera) and iPhone (Safari).
http://www.atmasphere.net/wp/archives/2007/07/11/browser-comparison-iphone-vs-nokia-n95-and-n800
Both do a good job in their own ways.

[jfanning]

It seems like you might be hopping from excuse to excuse ( http://homepage.mac.com/bhoglund/forumFudsters.html ), looking for anything to mention that implies fault with the iPhone, rather than actually following any one argument through? ;)


Are you implying I am being paid to write what I am writing?


You are right, some sites use plugins the iPhone doesn't have. On the flip side, just about ANY site gives a substandard experience on any phone BUT an iPhone. And other phones have Flash Lite, which is not at all the same thing as full Flash capable of accessing Flash web sites. Full Flash is inefficient and unsuitable for mobile use, and if Adobe gets that worked out then I expect the iPhone will benefit.


I am not talking about other phones. The original person said that the iPhone is placing a larger load on the network, but having to transfer more data (volume, not throughput), that is what I am talking about.


Regardless, how does that plugin question support your thesis that the carriers are not to blame for iPhone data rates?


I haven't been talking about data rates, I have been talking about volume, people have been twisting things


I want to understand your point, but it seems more and more like random trolling instead--or else looking for a reason not to wish you had an iPhone.


The point is simple, I have made it multiple times, but it appears everyone is a little slow on the uptake here.

Mobile data has been available international for a very long time, it has been used for a very long time, from a multitude of devices, to imply that the iPhone is the first device to transfer a lot of data, and thus kill networks is naive. Maybe it is because the original person who made the claim is new to mobile technology, maybe they have been limited to the nature of devices available in the US, I don't know.

I don't need to look for a reason to not have an iPhone, O2 made that decision for me.

I will not be locked to a contract, and I will not pay the price they are asking for the data connection in Ireland.


For any who are interested: a video comparing a couple mobile browsers including the N800 (Opera) and iPhone (Safari).
http://www.atmasphere.net/wp/archives/2007/07/11/browser-comparison-iphone-vs-nokia-n95-and-n800
Both do a good job in their own ways.

The video is over a year old, all three devices have had firmware updates since then, and I believe the Nokia ones have made them better devices.

[iPeon]

Which network? There are quite a few outside the USA

Any that has the iPhone on it's network.

[TenoBell]

Mobile data has been available international for a very long time, it has been used for a very long time, from a multitude of devices, to imply that the iPhone is the first device to transfer a lot of data, and thus kill networks is naive. Maybe it is because the original person who made the claim is new to mobile technology, maybe they have been limited to the nature of devices available in the US, I don't know.

The iPhone is generating "unheard-of levels of mobile Internet usage," according to Vivek Dev, COO of Telefónica O2 Europe, the sole carrier of the device in the United Kingdom. Web browsing and e-mail are two of the primary purposes of the iPhone, and O2 customers have unlimited use under current plans. Traffic is said to be so high in fact that it is straining O2's network, and this is only expected to become worse as the company switches to flat data fees.

[jfanning]

Any that has the iPhone on it's network.

And the documentation to back that up is where???

[jfanning]

The iPhone is generating "unheard-of levels of mobile Internet usage," according to Vivek Dev, COO of Telefónica O2 Europe, the sole carrier of the device in the United Kingdom. Web browsing and e-mail are two of the primary purposes of the iPhone, and O2 customers have unlimited use under current plans. Traffic is said to be so high in fact that it is straining O2's network, and this is only expected to become worse as the company switches to flat data fees.

ok, that either means they have a shite network in the UK, or they haven't had a lot of data users in the past, I know plently of people on O2 in Ireland, and it isn't making a different here.

[mirak63]

Obviously, but if that one is not currently available, which of the alternatives
(which might be currently possible) would users prefer?

there is no other alternatives

[iPeon]

And the documentation to back that up is where???

How is circular logic working out for you? You are the one that made claims without evaluation.

[jfanning]

How is circular logic working out for you? You are the one that made claims without evaluation.

No, i think you are. I just questioned your claims

[iPeon]

No, i think you are. I just questioned your claims

I didn't make any claims. You did. In regards to the impact the iPhone is having on the network, you claimed that:

there are other phones more than capable of putting through more data than an iPhone

I questioned your evaluation by saying:

Even if true, it's meaningless. That something is capable of doing something proves nothing. Are such capabilities being used? How often? By how many people? The iPhone is the first to make such difference. We are talking about full blown web pages being accessed on every iPhone, not to mention it's other features that transfer data on the network. One can't help but utilized the network with the iPhone.

How much more data is being transferred on the network now when compared to what it was prior to the iPhone? That's the question.

You still have'nt answered the question. Did you get lost along the way?

[jfanning]

You still have'nt answered the question. Did you get lost along the way?

I have answered it multiple times now