Is Palin's recent baby hers or her daughter's?

[BRussell]

This Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223) post argues that Palin's famous Down syndrome baby is not hers, but her daughter's. To summarize the argument:

1. The pictures of Palin don't look like she's pregnant, even when she should have been showing a lot.
2. No one around her knew she was pregnant, even when she should have been showing a lot.
3. Her high school daughter was taken out of school for mono during the time that would have covered the pregnancy.
4. When her water broke she was in Texas but flew all the way back to Alaska to (allegedly) give birth, which would be unusual.

The evidence is hardly slam-dunk, and the fact that the child has Down syndrome, which is usually associated with older mothers, suggests that it really was Palin rather than her daughter. And I don't think this would make her a bad person - to the contrary, actually - but it's an interesting bit of drama nonetheless.

[Bergermeister]

The interesting thing about Palin is nobody outside of Alaska knows much about her, so there will be a very interesting period of discovery.

She is an unknown from a rather removed locale where the game seems to be a little different so there will certainly be a few smudges discovered on the painting before long.

[e1618978]

Wow - I vote for the granddaughter hypothesis - there is no way she is 7 months pregnant in that picture.

[addabox]

Apparently the folks that would have expected to be contacted by the McCain people during the vetting process never were. This could get very weird.

[e1618978]

Apparently the folks that would have expected to be contacted by the McCain people during the vetting process never were. This could get very weird.

Maybe she is a practical joke on McCain's part - just a short term suggestion like Harriet Meyers was. She gets Obama to bring the "not experienced enough" meme out into full bloom, and then he swaps her out for Romney.

[addabox]

Maybe she is a practical joke on McCain's part - just a short term suggestion like Harriet Meyers was. She gets Obama to bring the "not experienced enough" meme out into full bloom, and then he swaps her out for Romney.

Well, there's "mavericky" and then there's "bat shit crazy." Not, now that you mention it, that it seems entirely out of the question.

[vinea]

I read on a forum somewhere (without a citation) that McCain says they didn't vet her. I haven't found anywhere that says this but that folks SUSPECT she wasn't vetted because some folks hadn't been contacted that might have during a careful vetting. There's also a rumor they are sending folks to check out "troopergate".

WTF? Did McCain do something flagrantly stupid? There is NO FRIGGING WAY they did not vet this woman...but WTF?

[addabox]

I read on a forum somewhere (without a citation) that McCain says they didn't vet her. I haven't found anywhere that says this but that folks SUSPECT she wasn't vetted because some folks hadn't been contacted that might have during a careful vetting. There's also a rumor they are sending folks to check out "troopergate".

WTF? Did McCain do something flagrantly stupid? There is NO FRIGGING WAY they did not vet this woman...but WTF?

WTF is kind my reaction too.

One scenario goes like this: McCain really wanted Lieberman, butted heads with the Rove forces and lost.

So in a bit of mavericky pique, he just kinda said "fuck it." Even the other contenders were caught unawares, so it appears to have truly been a snap decision thing. I'm sure his people did whatever they could as quickly as they could, but my hunch is is this was McCain's thing and he wanted to get it out there before the party grown-ups could twist his arm. I'm sure he's been chaffing under the constraints of having to be a "good candidate" and has been yearning to break some rules.

Just look at that Time interview, where he keeps repeating his "official" talking points, sullenly, like a child who has been threatened with punishment if they don't repeat what they've been told.

In some ways, I think this might be a big "fuck you" to the "politically sensible" elements of his party, which makes Palin's defense all the more amusing. It's like he's saying "I don't need a fucking vice president, I'm fucking John fucking McCain. Here's a sexy librarian, now fuck off and let me get back to fighting the commies with my bare hands!"

[vinea]

It's like he's saying "I don't need a fucking vice president, I'm fucking John fucking McCain. Here's a sexy librarian, now fuck off and let me get back to fighting the commies with my bare hands!"

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

okay, best belly laugh of the day.

[groverat]

I must confess, I am baffled... absolutely goddam baffled. It all just fits together...

What the hell?

You guys are fucking with my head.

I don't know what it has to do with anything, but it's like an episode of some horrible soap opera.

I really hope it isn't true and that adequate evidence is provided to dispel this wild conspiracy very soon, because it's hurting my brain.

[tonton]

If it turns out to be true, obviously, Palin will be taken off the ticket. But then how will McCain defend his reckless choice?

Enquiring minds want to know!

[mydo]

My wife who's a qualified pregnancy discover says it's all in the boobs. I showed her the Kos page and she say Palin doesn't look pregnant but she's not convinced the daughter is either. So I guess that's half a help.:lol:

If this is untrue it will be fodder for the right. If it is, as others have said, it's not too late for Palin to under the Straight Talk Express and pick a new person.

Rate of downs syndrome is higher for older mothers rather than younger mothers. For what that's worth.

[mydo]

Ooops Kos may have messed it up. Apparently the pictures of the daughter are a mix on ones take in 2006 and 2008. It could still be the daughter's baby but it puts a stone chip in Kos's windshield.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/259257

[hardeeharhar]

I don't like this argument anyway.

It is offensive and it shouldn't fucking matter.

There are SO many more ways to critique Palin...

[tonton]

Mydo, really... what is it with your typing/grammar/whatever? That was barely coherent. It's like whole words are missing and other completely non-sequiturs have replaced random words.

I'm not capping on you, or disagreeing with you, but dude... proofread. And don't rely on spell-checker. Better to misspell a word than to let spell-check stick the wrong word entirely in there.

Your wife, who is a "qualified pregnancy discover"?

[tonton]

I don't like this argument anyway.

It is offensive and it shouldn't fucking matter.

There are SO many more ways to critique Palin...

If it's true, then it absolutely well should matter.

Throws light on the whole "abstinence" only thing, as well as on Palin's sense of integrity. I'm sick to death of people without integrity, and this country deserves better. I'd much rather have an inexperienced, honest politician, even one whose values differ widely from my own, than a liar and cheat.

I'd like one instance where Obama is called on his integrity (ignoring the outright, disproved lies of the slime book).

Let's ignore the Bush administration, as it's been done to death, and only a fool thinks Geedub and Tricky Dick are honorable, honest people. But I could point out loads about McCain, especially WRT his recent policy flip-flops, especially on abortion, drilling for oil and the Bush tax cuts. This man lacks integrity. As does Palin. Obama does not.

And Clinton is not a part of this conversation.

[vinea]

I don't like this argument anyway.

It is offensive and it shouldn't fucking matter.

There are SO many more ways to critique Palin...

I like Palin other than she might be tied to a church a tad too extreme for me. And her answers were not too bright.

But it does matter from two perspectives: McCain didn't vet his running mate. That's a real dumb decision. Second she lied and participated in a cover up.

Personally, I don't care who the mother is and frankly I give Palin the benefit of the doubt. I DO wish McCain had picked someone more substantial but assuming she survives this test by fire she could do quite well in 4 to 8 years.

The liberals crowing about this have to remember that Obama got his share of stupid rumors and while payback might feel good it's strategically bad unless you've got real proof.

[mydo]

Mydo, really... what is it with your typing/grammar/whatever? That was barely coherent. It's like whole words are missing and other completely non-sequiturs have replaced random words.

I'm not capping on you, or disagreeing with you, but dude... proofread. And don't rely on spell-checker. Better to misspell a word than to let spell-check stick the wrong word entirely in there.

Your wife, who is a "qualified pregnancy discover"?

Okay.

[midwinter]

This is a really disgusting bit of public conjecture. Palin has plenty of drama in tow without nonsense like this.

[mydo]

I think the timing of this is wrong. Kos should have waited until after the convention. Unless they were going to get scooped. After the convention it would have been harder to toss Palin under the bus.

Despite the messed up date on the photos the whole thing plausible. The daughter was kept out of school for months. If they delivered at a hospital someone would know who the mother was. I think it would be hard to cover that up. Too many eyes and too much ethics. It would have been better to go "granola" and do a home birth. We'll have to wait and see. Expect a statement from Palin on Monday.

This is too juicy.

[BRussell]

I guess I don't understand why this is so off limits. It's just speculation, and it can be easily disproved if it's untrue. It's not a smear like saying Obama is a secret Muslim, because it's disprovable and it's not even negative about her. I think people would probably sympathize with her if it turned out to be true - I know I would. You're trying to protect your daughter, so you say it's your baby, when you're a governor? That takes some serious balls... um, ovaries.

[hmurchison]

Hmmmm seems to me that there indeed is a cover up going on.

Trig was supposed to be a Premie right? Ok so he was roughly 6lbs. That's easily
going to show at 7 months because he'd still be roughly 4.5-5lbs.

We wouldn't even be discussing this had Bristol Palin not suddenly disappeared from school
prior to the birth of Trig for 5 months. I've known plenty of people who've had Mono but
never anyone that had it for 5 months.

I understand that it's a political nightmare to have your teen child become pregnant but if we're going to slam the Edward's and Spitzer's of the world what are we to do with someone who could be willfully deceiving the American public?

This stinks.

[mydo]

My son was 2.5 weeks early and came in at 6 lbs. Unless you are obese, everyone knows your pregnant at 8 months. I'm going to start looking for photos of Palin before the due date. But if they were out there Kos would have found them by now.

I wouldn't call 4 weeks a "premie" in this day and age. They do c-sections much earlier than for medical reasons. I'm not always convinced they get the expected due date correct. They use laster period and ultra sound but if the tech doing the US is rushed to get though the exam and it happens earlier in the pregnancy than ideal then the guessing could be off.

Oh and tonton my information comes from being in around pregnant women non stop for the last 6 years. Including my own wife's 4. If that meets with your approval. Please spel and gramar check this post.

[tonton]

My son was 2.5 weeks early and came in at 6 lbs. Unless you are obese, everyone knows your pregnant at 8 months. I'm going to start looking for photos of Palin before the due date. But if they were out there Kos would have found them by now.

I wouldn't call 4 weeks a "premie" in this day and age. They do c-sections much earlier than for medical reasons. I'm not always convinced they get the expected due date correct. They use laster period and ultra sound but if the tech doing the US is rushed to get though the exam and it happens earlier in the pregnancy than ideal then the guessing could be off.

Oh and tonton my information comes from being in around pregnant women non stop for the last 6 years. Including my own wife's 4. If that meets with your approval. Please spel and gramar check this post.

Once again, I wasn't disagreeing with you about your wife's experience. Just reminding you (harshly) to proofread.

[tonton]

This is a really disgusting bit of public conjecture. Palin has plenty of drama in tow without nonsense like this.

Honestly, how is this any worse than the Larry Sinclair story?

[mydo]

Once again, I wasn't disagreeing with you about your wife's experience. Just reminding you (harshly) to proofread.

Yes thank you. I needed that. Can I have another? Here's more chances...


Back on topic. I can't find pics of Palin pregnant. I'm stuck on the fact that if the baby was delivered in a hospital by the daughter it would almost be impossible to cover up. No matter if your the governor or not.

The labor and delivery story doesn't bother me. Being around midwives (or is it midwifferies) and doulas for the last 6 years I've heard it all. Delivery in the font lawn, delivery at home before anyone knew what was going to happen, 48 hour labor, natural of twins.

[midwinter]

I guess I don't understand why this is so off limits. It's just speculation, and it can be easily disproved if it's untrue. It's not a smear like saying Obama is a secret Muslim, because it's disprovable and it's not even negative about her. I think people would probably sympathize with her if it turned out to be true - I know I would. You're trying to protect your daughter, so you say it's your baby, when you're a governor? That takes some serious balls... um, ovaries.

<ominous SBVT voice>
Sarah Palin has been lying. To her family. To her constituents. To her state. And now, to the nation. Palin knew that on her already weak resume, "mother of an unwed teenage mother" would destroy her political desires, and so she lied. She cared more about her political career than she did about doing the right thing when her daughter got pregnant.

Sarah Palin: embarrassed, or just ambitious?
</ominous SBVT voice>

Personally, I hate it when we get bogged down in personal indiscretions. I think Palin's batshit crazy positions are plenty. No need to drag her daughter into this.

[groverat]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2814199887_67e84850f4.jpg?v=0

She grew very very very quickly.

I am still confused.

[edit]

I'm assuming this is from 2008...

Hoping this whole thing is bullshit and we can get back to laughing at how unqualified she is.

[mydo]

Wow! How'd you find that?

Edit to add...


She has a fat face there. Looks pregnant to me. Hard to tell if her boobs are bigger there? Could Kos get sued over this?

[groverat]

It wasn't like Kos himself posted this. It wasn't even a recommended diary. Anyone can post on that site.

[tonton]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2814199887_67e84850f4.jpg?v=0

She grew very very very quickly.

I am still confused.

[edit]

I'm assuming this is from 2008...

Hoping this whole thing is bullshit and we can get back to laughing at how unqualified she is.

Well, there it is. If this can be proven to be from 2008, then we can close this case. But that doesn't mean the case shouldn't have been opened. And it also says nothing about the horribly irresponsible decision-making to fly back to Alaska then go to a backwater hospital.

[mydo]

Oooo I didn't realize that. I though it was guest blogger or something.

[Aries 1B]

Could Kos get sued over this?

I don't see Daily Kos getting sued by Sarah Palin for this attack on her daughter.

I do see the Democrats losing the election, though.


PALIN -McCain 08

:lol:
V/R,
Aries 1B

[mydo]

Politically it wouldn't be wise. If proven false the right will use this as "another liberal media smear" and then parlay that to deflect all ligit' dirt dug up on Palin and McCain.:grumble:

[addabox]

Has this even moved beyond the post at Kos and some mild speculation here and there? It's not like the DNC has been issuing press releases or anything.

The response is actually quite restrained, compared to right wing blogs, where they're still yammering about Obama's fake birth certificate. As recently as a few days ago, half the winger blogosphere was completely consumed by the idea that the Obama campaign had set up a fake website purporting to be a conservative group scolding Palin for supporting gay rights.

At the end of the day, they just kind of went "oops, but totally typical of the sort of stuff Obama would probably do, if it occurred to him."

The left has a long way to go to even begin to scale the heights of shamelessness that have been conquered by the right.

[Bergermeister]

Whichever is true, her daughter or her granddaughter, it ain't good, and shows reckless thinking that doesn't belong near the Oval Office.

This girl is certain a small town girl who thinks the game board is different. Small town mentality of the bad kind.

[tonton]

Whichever is true, her daughter or her granddaughter, it ain't good, and shows reckless thinking that doesn't belong near the Oval Office.

This girl is certain a small town girl who thinks the game board is different. Small town mentality of the bad kind.

No, you can't use those words to describe a Republican. Those words are only for describing Democrats.

Democrats are "small town". Republicans are "down to earth".
Democrats are "elitist". Republicans are "straight talking".
Democrats are "divisive". Republicans are "mavericks".
Democrats are "pandering". Republicans are "non-partisan".
Democrats are "flip-floppers". Republicans are "flexible".

:no:

[Bergermeister]

Thanks for the word-check in Repuglish!
8-)

[BRussell]

<ominous SBVT voice>
Sarah Palin has been lying. To her family. To her constituents. To her state. And now, to the nation. Palin knew that on her already weak resume, "mother of an unwed teenage mother" would destroy her political desires, and so she lied. She cared more about her political career than she did about doing the right thing when her daughter got pregnant.

Sarah Palin: embarrassed, or just ambitious?
</ominous SBVT voice>

Personally, I hate it when we get bogged down in personal indiscretions. I think Palin's batshit crazy positions are plenty. No need to drag her daughter into this.

Well that would be ridiculous, but is that happening? It seems to me that there's just People magazine style "Brangelina is pregnant!" speculation on a few websites. it's very easily disprovable. And it's not even negative about her. It's almost certainly false, and then you say OK, like when a iPod spy photo is proven false. On the off chance that it is true, would you suggest that it not be discussed?

[midwinter]

Well that would be ridiculous, but is that happening? It seems to me that there's just People magazine style "Brangelina is pregnant!" speculation on a few websites. it's very easily disprovable. And it's not even negative about her. It's almost certainly false, and then you say OK, like when a iPod spy photo is proven false. On the off chance that it is true, would you suggest that it not be discussed?

Suggest it not be discussed? Where did I say that? I think it's sad and disgusting and is a distraction from things that matter, and while I wish our electorate were above the level of People magazine, I will not refrain from heaping scorn on them for not being.

But then, I'm an elitist.

[BRussell]

Suggest it not be discussed? Where did I say that? I think it's sad and disgusting and is a distraction from things that matter, and while I wish our electorate were above the level of People magazine, I will not refrain from heaping scorn on them for not being.

But then, I'm an elitist. OK, then it should be discussed? I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it disgusting? It's some fanciful speculation on the internet that's very easily disprovable with a few pictures of the type groverat posted.

[midwinter]

OK, then it should be discussed? I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it disgusting? It's some fanciful speculation on the internet that's very easily disprovable with a few pictures of the type groverat posted.

Do you think that Cindy McCain has ever fucked a donkey? What about Hillary? You think she has ever taken it up the ass? You think her daughter likes it doggy-style? Reverse cowgirl?

It's just fanciful speculation. Sort of like Limbaugh.

Edit:

And yes, it's disprovable once we engage in a riveting discussion of Sarah Palin's tits and ass.

[vinea]

OK, then it should be discussed? I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it disgusting? It's some fanciful speculation on the internet that's very easily disprovable with a few pictures of the type groverat posted.

It's also disgusting because while the commentary is on the mom the collateral damage is on the 17 year old daughter.

Given the later pictures found I think we can put this one to rest although the plane ride is a very questionable decision.

It STILL doesn't seem like McCain vetted her very well.

[tonton]

Do you think that Cindy McCain has ever fucked a donkey? What about Hillary? You think she has ever taken it up the ass? You think her daughter likes it doggy-style? Reverse cowgirl?

It's just fanciful speculation. Sort of like Limbaugh.

Edit:

And yes, it's disprovable once we engage in a riveting discussion of Sarah Palin's tits and ass.

This is not a very clever analogy.

There is plenty of evidence that points to the possibility that Palin covered up her daughter's teen pregnancy.

Where is the evidence that Hillary fucked a donkey?

It's after evidence of wrongdoing arises that you look into it. Which is what was done here.

It is not a witch hunt. There's a very legitimate reason to ask why Bristol was pulled out of school for 5 months, and why Palin flew from Texas to Alaska and then drove to a backwater town to finally "deliver" 12 hours after her water broke. If she hadn't made those perplexing decisions, there would be no story here.

[tonton]

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/the_day_after_tomorrow/chelsea_clinton/daypres.jpg

(As in fucked Bill Clinton, not a literal donkey. Be nice!)

LMFAO!!!!!!

Damn you!!!!

That's the second time I laughed myself to tears today.

And this time I wasn't home alone -- my wife was here.

You bastard! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

edit: I'm still fucking laughing, you ass!

[hardeeharhar]

HOLY SHIT!!!!

Bristol is claimed to be currently pregnant by Palin, herself...

[Bergermeister]

Here's a link or two:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/palin-confirms-daughters-pregnancy-915378.html

And another

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_daughter;_ylt=AmOuw0sjy13YtdUkphN4qGys0N UE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc;_ylt=ArJZZ1jRd7RhrjhHY3VICr9 h24cA
CNN hasn't got it, yet.

[Bergermeister]

Ouch.

Send this family back home; they have more than few things to work out.

[Flounder]

Must have been that abstinence only education.

[Bergermeister]

The story made it on BBC here in Japan.

[tonton]

Holy smoke!

How can this not look bad for Palin?

ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!

oops... my 17 year-old daughter is pregnant...

[vinea]

oops... my 17 year-old daughter is pregnant...

Yeah. Really screwed up about that one. But what the hell, college is optional for girls right? As is shoes. Pregnant and married by 17.

I guess being governor meant more than guiding her daughter. Now she's going to "homeschool" her kids. As a VP nominee. Right.

McCain is senile (and a dirty old man) to pick her. I supported him in 2000 but now he's just a joke.

[hardeeharhar]

HOLY SHIT!!!!

Bristol is claimed to be currently pregnant by Palin, herself...
It would be so easy for this to be a lie to cover up the truth of the original rumor...

Either way, Palin probably should have realized that this was going to hit the national media (the fact that it occurred on a day when most people are at home watching tv because of Gustav is just an unfortunate circumstance) and this indicts her family priorities...

[vinea]

It would be so easy for this to be a lie to cover up the truth of the original rumor...


No, this feels artfully played to minimize the damage by putting something more juicy out there and have this rather common outcome instead.

Still, it doesn't say good things about Palin or McCain.

[midwinter]

And the countdown to Palin bowing out to spend more time with her family begins....

[Bergermeister]

OHH!!!

:lol:

This pick has been a disaster!

Just was on CNN a few minutes ago... at the RNC the spokeswoman put the spin on it:

she decided to keep the child
that is the right choice
her family supports her

[tonton]

So much for the "outrage" that the original allegations were smearing Bristol with the false rumor of her pregnancy.

Bristol was smeared, all right... with K-Y.

I have no sympathy for this family. They were stupid to go abstinence-only. Bristol is an attractive young lady. Her mom is a celebrity who is probably too busy to pay close attention to the children. Bristol is going to have sex, and responsible parents would have given her the knowledge required to do so safely. The parents in this equation needed to be more responsible.

I'd love to see Jubelum defending parents' right to abstinence only education after this one.

[Bergermeister]

And the countdown to Palin bowing out to spend more time with her family begins....

Who to replace her with?

[tonton]

"In the course of correcting that, we needed to get the truth out," said the McCain aide.

So... if not for the allegations regarding Stim... er... Smeg... whatever... they would have hidden Bristol's pregnancy? Even though it directly contradicts Sarah Palin's message about sex education and "family values"? That stinks of dishonesty yet again.

[Bergermeister]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_daughter;_ylt=As_QaXA9Cex06y9Of7iSRgSs0N UE


The last line is a doosie:
McCain's aide, who announced this to the media, at the end says, "Life happens."

This is most certainly not the attitude necessary for the WH.

[tonton]

Ok.. it's Trig. Really, though... why not call him "Calc", or "Econ", even? Trig is so seventh grade.

[Bergermeister]

The interesting thing about Palin is nobody outside of Alaska knows much about her, so there will be a very interesting period of discovery.

She is an unknown from a rather removed locale where the game seems to be a little different so there will certainly be a few smudges discovered on the painting before long.

Hate to quote myself, but, I guess I'm an elitist.

There will be volumes on this family within a week.

[BRussell]

What the fuck? This is like deflecting rumors that McCain has Alzheimer's with the actual revelation that he has schizophrenia.

[midwinter]

What the fuck? This is like deflecting rumors that McCain has Alzheimer's with the actual revelation that he has schizophrenia.

Hrm....is there any evidence that McCain DOESN'T have schizophrenia?

[BRussell]

One thing about those Palins, they sure are fecund.

[BRussell]

Hrm....is there any evidence that McCain DOESN'T have schizophrenia? I've examined the photographs and the youtubes, and have uncovered no evidence of a lack of schizophrenia.

[hardeeharhar]

One thing about those Palins, they sure are fecund.
Dude hits it.

So would you.

[mydo]

So the truth is much less scandalous. At least there was a there there.

Don't let Cheney preside over the shotgun wedding.

[addabox]

HOLY SHIT!!!!

Bristol is claimed to be currently pregnant by Palin, herself...

I read that and thought "Holy shit, the daughter is claiming that her mom got her pregnant? THEY SERIOUSLY DID NOT VET THIS WOMAN."

[mydo]

Barak has to go egg shells on this one too. He has to keep the 527s and bloggers in line too or there could be blowback on it.

[Bergermeister]

Barak has to go egg shells on this one too. He has to keep the 527s and bloggers in line too or there could be blowback on it.

And by his doing so the standards for American society get lowered yet again because the Repubs get away with yet another incredible thing.

[mydo]

The "k" only has more an edge. It's like, eXtreme.

[BRussell]

Wow, she's going to have a child and a grandchild the same age. This ought to at least warrant an episode of Maury, if not even Tyra!

[mydo]

Is Oprah going to have them on? Doesn't she have each candidate on each cycle?

She would never turn the screws to Palin though. Not too hard at least. It would be a learning segment.:\

[mydo]

I can hear Bristol now "Dat my baby daddy!" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/11/fox-news-calls-michelle-o_n_106655.html).

[Akumulator]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b181/idealrecords/juneau.jpg

[midwinter]

I think it is very important that we all have a laugh at the expense of a 17 year-old girl who is not running for anything. It will demonstrate our class.

[Gilsch]

Holy smoke!

How can this not look bad for Palin?

ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!
ABSTINENCE ONLY EDUCATION!!! NO GRAPHIC SEX EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS!!!!

oops... my 17 year-old daughter is pregnant...

This may actually be good for McCain. Isn't 17 considered a little old for the first pregnancy in some parts of red country? :D

[hardeeharhar]

I don't think this should be relevant at all to the election at hand (except in situations where a dialog about sex education is brought up)...

But unfortuantely, I was unable to stop myself from doing a bit of googling to figure out who this Levi character is from the Palin press release:

http://images.townnews.com/frontiersman.com/content/articles/2007/12/08/sports/doc475a740c27e58386258924.jpg

He's the one struggling.

oops.

I hate myself.

[addabox]

Checking our reactions at the Republican Convention, I'm interested to see the Republican Party has the following message for Americans:

If you are the daughter of a well-connected, affluent mom, feel free to have unprotected, premarital sex. If you wind up pregnant, it will be a growth experience.

If, however, you have had the poor taste to be born black and poor, you would be best advised to hop on the old chastity bus, because your pregnancy will mark you as an irresponsible slut and a horrible, horrible person.

And you will have to choose between chastity and pregnancy, because birth control is evil.

[tonton]

There's a lot of speculation that the "five months" is really "four months", and Bristol may be pregnant for the second time. The other theory is that there is no "second pregnancy", and that Bristol will have a "heartbreaking" stillbirth or miscarriage.

[Jubelum]

I guess Palin wants her daughter "punished with a baby," eh, Barack?

[hardeeharhar]

I guess Palin wants her daughter "punished with a baby," eh, Barack?
No. Palin allowed her daughter to make the choice.

[tonton]

New revelations.

A (closed) myspace account was found, attributable to "Levi's" twin sister, Sadie, purportedly with photos of newborn Trig, Sadie, and "Mommy in-law" Sarah Palin.

Sample:

http://homepage.mac.com/bentonton/mommyinlaw.jpg

Obviously, Sarah Palin is not the mother of that child. The question is, if it's really Trig or not.

Here are a few pages with further info on this MySpace thing:

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/

http://flickr.com/photos/30128128@N04/

This stuff couldn't be made up by the best writers in Hollywood.

Also, speculation is that Trig may be a victim of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, rather than Down's.

[hardeeharhar]

tonton,

i am not so sure any of that proves anything...

[FormerLurker]

New revelations.

A (closed) myspace account was found, attributable to "Levi's" sister, purportedly with photos of newborn Trig, "Levi's" sister, and "Mommy in-law" Sarah Palin.

Sample:

http://homepage.mac.com/bentonton/mommyinlaw.jpg

Obviously, Sarah Palin is not the mother of that child. The question is, if it's really Trig or not.

Here are a few pages with further info on this MySpace thing:

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/

http://flickr.com/photos/30128128@N04/

This stuff couldn't be made up by the best writers in Hollywood.

Also, speculation is that Trig may be a victim of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, rather than Down's.

Is there any end in sight for the Palin rabbit hole?

McCain is lucky that she hasn't accepted the nomination yet. Of course, he's probably too much of a "maverick" to consider replacing her....

[tonton]

tonton,

i am not so sure any of that proves anything...

Well this photo certainly proves without a doubt that Levi is either an underage drinker or a statutory rapist.

http://flickr.com/photos/30128128@N04/2819779008/sizes/o/

[hardeeharhar]

Clearly an underaged drinker... I think the photo I found above was miss labeled... The brown haired guy is a repeat in your images...

[midwinter]

When do we get to talk about kerning?

[mydo]

I hereby declare this to be the first election truly impacted by the internet age.

[addabox]

When do we get to talk about kerning?

Just noticed the Dr. Horrible sig. I meant.........Ghandi.

[Fellowship]

It appears to me that Sarah was indeed pregnant with Trig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAzv7Be6iqQ&feature=related


Anyone dispute this?

Fellows

[Jubelum]

I'm so confused. I thought anything that happened in or near a womb was no business of ours. I've had that beaten into my head through years of public school and 6 years of university.

[Fellowship]

I'm so confused. I thought anything that happened in or near a womb was no business of ours. I've had that beaten into my head through years of public school and 6 years of university.

I too am very confused.

Fellows

[addabox]

I'm so confused. I thought anything that happened in or near a womb was no business of ours. I've had that beaten into my head through years of public school and 6 years of university.

If Palin had been ordered by the state to carry her child to term, you would have a point.

[midwinter]

Just noticed the Dr. Horrible sig. I meant.........Ghandi.

hehehe. I try, I try.

[midwinter]

It appears to me that Sarah was indeed pregnant with Trig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAzv7Be6iqQ&feature=related


Anyone dispute this?

Fellows

Why bother, when we can just engage in idle conjecture (http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=fake%20pregnancy%20belly&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf).

I have yet to examine the kerning on Obama's birth certificate, though.

[Fellowship]

If Palin had been ordered by the state to carry her child to term, you would have a point.

gay sex, abortion, evolution.

Let's see...


Yep...

Number 2 on the list.

"Progressive" "The right to kill your unborn child"

Now there are some progressive values.

Fellows

[addabox]

gay sex, abortion, evolution.

Let's see...


Yep...

Number 2 on the list.

"Progressive" "The right to kill your unborn child"

Now there are some progressive values.

Fellows

Huh??

[vinea]

No. Palin allowed her daughter to make the choice.

Not likely. But in any case she failed to give her daughter a more important choice: insist her sex partner use a condom. What if it had been AIDS instead of a pregnancy?

I have the financial resources to probably salvage* my son or daughter's childhood from a teenage pregnancy. There's no a whole lot I can do about AIDS other than pay for the cocktail and pray for the best.


* as in provide some of the experiences of young adulthood that other kids would get but they wont because they jumped directly to being parents. Probably college but it would have to be a local one. No parties, no carefree years, likely no grad school, etc. I would be really sad that my kid would have to miss some of the best years of their lives and lose many options.

[vinea]

Huh??

He's calling you a baby killer.

[Bergermeister]

It seems that John McCain was against money for pregnant teenagers:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080902/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_mccain_teen_pregnancies;_ylt=Aox_N0COkamYs_fVm OtLu8.s0NUE

[Bergermeister]

If the father was under 18, he could be prosecuted for underage drinking. If he was 18, he could be prosecuted for rape, which would be pretty disastrous for the situation.

[Flounder]

If the father was under 18, and he can be and should be prosecuted for underage drinking. If he was 18, and he can be prosecuted for rape, which would be pretty disastrous for the situation.

Come on, Berg, I really think you're going over-board. "17 year-old has beer in Alaska, call the cops!" If we spent our days tracking down and prosecuting every photo of underage drinking on the internet, we'd do nothing else.

It makes you seem petty.

Additionally, on the rape thing, what is Alaska law for statutory rape? In my state, if you're old enough to drive, you're old enough to fuck.

Like some others have said, there are much better things to go on about.

[Bergermeister]

Perhaps I should have left it at "could" as was the wording in the 2nd part.

Just reread my post and noticed extraneous "and"s... I use a speech to text system and didn't proof. Sorry; fixed it.

[Bergermeister]

Come on, Berg, I really think you're going over-board. "17 year-old has beer in Alaska, call the cops!" If we spent our days tracking down and prosecuting every photo of underage drinking on the internet, we'd do nothing else.

It makes you seem petty.

Additionally, on the rape thing, what is Alaska law for statutory rape? In my state, if you're old enough to drive, you're old enough to fuck.

Like some others have said, there are much better things to go on about.


Very true. There are much bigger things to focus on.

All of this could be nothing. Or it could be big. I hope for the former.

---
Here in Japan there are tons of "Love Hotels" where the staff never see the customers. There are boxes where the money is transferred. Old enough to pay is old enough to play. Interestingly, though, teen births are quite low, the lowest in the industrialized world. I have no idea about how many abortions are conducted here.

[Bergermeister]

Some data:

http://www.unicef.org/pon96/inbirth.htm

The US has the highest teen birthrate in the industrialized world.

The EU averages 15 per 1000 girls... the US: 64.

[trumptman]

Can I request a sticky for this thread? I want it kept at the top of the political discussion until at least mid-November.

I think this is really a winning strategy. I think the best way to show Hillary voters that the Democratic party is where they belong is to do the following.

Take an adult woman who has broken the glass ceiling and call her a liar because a bunch of men don't think she looked fat enough while pregnant, got fat too late, her boobs aren't big enough, etc.

Take it a step further and suggest that she shouldn't be working or seeking a higher position because she should stay home and take care of that kid of hers exclusively thus forgoing her career.

Suggest that while qualified intellectually for the job that she shouldn't have it due to inexperience caused by being on the "mommy track." When the head of the other parties ticket has similar inexperience, dismiss it with appeals to intellect and charisma. Then note derisively that the female was a "snort" "beauty contestant."

Finally, and best of all, the world's greatest double standard as you continue to suggest that because a child choose not to follow her parent's personal beliefs that it makes her terrible professionally with regard to decision making.

I'm bumping this thread forever and seriously, I can't thank you all enough.

[midwinter]

Agreed.

[trumptman]

I great new update from our future Democratic overlords.

Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/inew-york-posti-offers-up_n_123092.html)

I am reporting having just been released from a reeducation camp. I am now happy to report that I am no longer concerned about the privacy concerns related to the FISA bill that President Obama voted to approve. Under his regime we now know when all 17 year olds have mono, if their boyfriends snuck a beer and finally the DNA database for all older women to confirm the lines of questioning related to possible progeny has been approved and is in the formative stages.

I would especially like to thank Andrew Sullivan for clarifying that who sticks a penis up his anus is an adult privacy concern but demanding DNA results from a grown woman is absolutely not a privacy concern.

Please resume the preferred regular behavior of tossing around baseless personal changes and innuendo. There will be no more walls around the world and the bloggers of Iran are now safe from the man who would put America First.

[Bergermeister]

An odd question: does anyone else have a problem with this this page not completing to load? It seems to get 80% done and then hang for 20 seconds. Odd. No other pages have this problem.

[trumptman]

I don't know about the page issues but I am really digging the new "approach." (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/the-press-is-as.html)

Abortion, it is between a woman and her doctor. However if we think that you weren't fat enough while pregnant, be prepared to hand over your records bitch!

[midwinter]

I don't know about the page issues but I am really digging the new "approach." (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/the-press-is-as.html)

Abortion, it is between a woman and her doctor. However if we think that you weren't fat enough while pregnant, be prepared to hand over your records bitch!

I have seen a scan of the birth certificate, myself. The kerning is off.

[BRussell]

Can I request a sticky for this thread? I want it kept at the top of the political discussion until at least mid-November.

I think this is really a winning strategy. I think the best way to show Hillary voters that the Democratic party is where they belong is to do the following.

This is the way that you and midwinter see things here that I don't get. PO is a group of people at a small-town bar in the middle of nowhere who talk about current events over beer. We're not the DNC/RNC, we're not the media, we're not the Obama or McCain campaigns. We don't speak in talking points and press releases, we don't strategically choose our words for the effect it will have on the national stage. We talk about rumors and gossip in the same way we talk about Mac/iPod rumors or the gossip about who's pregnant in our neighborhood.

[trumptman]

I have seen a scan of the birth certificate, myself. The kerning is off.

That's it. I'm suing of Trig ever runs for president!

This is the way that you and midwinter see things here that I don't get. PO is a group of people at a small-town bar in the middle of nowhere who talk about current events over beer. We're not the DNC/RNC, we're not the media, we're not the Obama or McCain campaigns. We don't speak in talking points and press releases, we don't strategically choose our words for the effect it will have on the national stage. We talk about rumors and gossip in the same way we talk about Mac/iPod rumors or the gossip about who's pregnant in our neighborhood.

Well I don't go to any small town bars for comparison, but I'm pretty sure if I did the talk would be about having to possibly add a "G" in front of the MILF and then some talk about whether they would still "hit it."

Just so we are clear my answer on that is uh..uh..uh.. (best Barack uh impersonation )... yes. Now reset the dart board.

However it wasn't brought up in that context. It was brought up in the context of a left-wing blog pursuing the point for political purposes.

In that regard, I'm going to keep it up here forever. It is the exact type of sexism that shouldn't happen. It is the same sort of crap as the "year in pantsuits" while no one cares or examines what type of suits Obama has worn in the last year.

[BRussell]

However it wasn't brought up in that context. It was brought up in the context of a left-wing blog pursuing the point for political purposes.

If you're talking about the original source, my understanding is that this was kicking around in Alaska politics for months, and came from right-wing bloggers. Of course, in Alaska there probably isn't a left wing, and the only people loonier than the extreme right are the ultra right.

[midwinter]

in Alaska there probably isn't a left wing, and the only people loonier than the extreme right are the ultra right.

Sounds just like Utah.

[trumptman]

If you're talking about the original source, my understanding is that this was kicking around in Alaska politics for months, and came from right-wing bloggers. Of course, in Alaska there probably isn't a left wing, and the only people loonier than the extreme right are the ultra right.

I was only referring to the source cited in the original post. I'm not going to presume someone is going to read something not linked here and refer to it in characterizing anything here.

The NY Times raises the sexism (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02mother.html?hp=&pagewanted=print) bar.

We get treated to a plethora of Obama supporters declaring that women can't make history because they have to stay glued to the breast pump. No wonder the Hillary voters were going nuts.

[vinea]

Can I request a sticky for this thread? I want it kept at the top of the political discussion until at least mid-November.


You don't sticky strawman arguments except as examples of what not to do.

Take an adult woman who has broken the glass ceiling and call her a liar because a bunch of men don't think she looked fat enough while pregnant, got fat too late, her boobs aren't big enough, etc.


Bunch of men and women. Besides, it was obviously hers once some decent pictures were found. However, it was very odd that she elected to give a speech and then fly 8 hours home after she had gone into labor. That speaks of poor judgement.

Oh, glass ceiling broken by Ferraro in 1984.


Take it a step further and suggest that she shouldn't be working or seeking a higher position because she should stay home and take care of that kid of hers exclusively thus forgoing her career.


Strawman. The only comments I've seen were that a down syndrome child was a lot of work. She can hire a nanny or Dad can handle it.

Whether a nanny or stay at home dad reflects CONSERVATIVE family values is debatable. But no liberal has a problem with it.


Suggest that while qualified intellectually for the job that she shouldn't have it due to inexperience caused by being on the "mommy track." When the head of the other parties ticket has similar inexperience, dismiss it with appeals to intellect and charisma. Then note derisively that the female was a "snort" "beauty contestant."


Strawman. No one has stated this.


Finally, and best of all, the world's greatest double standard as you continue to suggest that because a child choose not to follow her parent's personal beliefs that it makes her terrible professionally with regard to decision making.


Strawman. The argument is that she follows a failed policy despite having objective and very personal evidence it doesn't work. This is a poor decision making.


I'm bumping this thread forever and seriously, I can't thank you all enough.

Bumping with strawmen arguments is silly and reflects poorly on the bumper.

[trumptman]

You don't sticky strawman arguments except as examples of what not to do.

So we are in agreement, bringing up the personal life of Palin instead of discussing policies and positions is sexism at work instead of true discussion. Thus everyone who participated and added to such a discussion is sexist.

Bunch of men and women. Besides, it was obviously hers once some decent pictures were found. However, it was very odd that she elected to give a speech and then fly 8 hours home after she had gone into labor. That speaks of poor judgement.

Oh, glass ceiling broken by Ferraro in 1984.

Odd by what reasoning? I think that being in her fifth labor she certain knew her own body and how it would respond. The fact that you claim to know her own body better than her is nothing more than pure sexism. The fact that you claim to judge what is better for her body than her is again, sexism.

The glass ceiling I was referring to was being governor of Alaska.

Strawman. The only comments I've seen were that a down syndrome child was a lot of work. She can hire a nanny or Dad can handle it.

Whether a nanny or stay at home dad reflects CONSERVATIVE family values is debatable. But no liberal has a problem with it.

Then I guess you missed the page one NY Times article I cited noting a lot of liberal Obama supporters having problems with and questioning it.

Strawman. No one has stated this.

No one has questioned her experience? I would beg to differ and so would a couple hundred news articles.

Strawman. The argument is that she follows a failed policy despite having objective and very personal evidence it doesn't work. This is a poor decision making.

So you can cite proof that affirms that both teens involved were never taught about birth control, never had access to birth control?

I would like to see that proof. It takes two to tango as the saying goes. That certainly is a mitigating factor.

[Fellowship]

Nick, I agree with you that the concerns expressed in that New York Times article are plainly sexist. Some are holding her to a double standard. No one would ask those questions of a male candidate with young or adolescent children. It shouldn't be an issue that applies only to women. Rather, the question of balancing work and family should apply to women and men.

Go Shawn!

Fellows

[trumptman]

Nick, I agree with you that the concerns expressed in that New York Times article are plainly sexist. Some are holding her to a double standard. No one would ask those questions of a male candidate with young or adolescent children. It shouldn't be an issue that applies only to women. Rather, the question of balancing work and family should apply to women and men.

Agreed.

[vinea]

So we are in agreement, bringing up the personal life of Palin instead of discussing policies and positions is sexism at work instead of true discussion. Thus everyone who participated and added to such a discussion is sexist.


Strawman. We are not in agreement because I said nothing of the sort.


Odd by what reasoning? I think that being in her fifth labor she certain knew her own body and how it would respond. The fact that you claim to know her own body better than her is nothing more than pure sexism. The fact that you claim to judge what is better for her body than her is again, sexism.


Odd by every comment made to us by an OB on what not to do when pregnant. What to do when in labor, etc. Are you saying that a male OB cannot "know" the body of a patient better than they do?

It is not sexism.


The glass ceiling I was referring to was being governor of Alaska.


There have been other female governors. It's not much of an unbroken glass ceiling anymore for anything other than the executive office.


Then I guess you missed the page one NY Times article I cited noting a lot of liberal Obama supporters having problems with and questioning it.


Probably because you posted that citation AFTER the post I responded to. Lets take a look:

#1 Karen Rooff, Independent: “I don’t care whether she’s the mother or the father; it’s a lot to handle,”

#2 Lori Viars, evangelical Christian: "The whole family is pro-life, and they put that into practice even when it’s not easy,"

Oddly, doesn't answer the question.

#3 Christin Henre de Tessan, Obama supporter: "“You can juggle a BlackBerry and a breast pump in a lot of jobs, but not in the vice presidency"

I dunno, I've never been VP.

#4 Anne Faircloth, Republican, Being a governor is one thing, Ms. Faircloth said, and Ms. Palin’s husband, Todd, seems like a supportive spouse. “But running for the second-highest office in the land is a very different kettle of fish,”

#5 Sarah Robertson, evangelical Christian, “A mother of a 4-month-old infant with Down syndrome taking up full-time campaigning? Not my value set.”

#6 One detail of Ms. Palin’s biography jumped out to many mothers, becoming a subject of instant fixation. “She went back to work as governor of Alaska three days after giving birth,” a poster named cafemama marveled on another blog, urbanmamas.com.

#7 Phyllis Schlafly, "People who don’t have children or who have only one or two are kind of overwhelmed at the notion of five children,” Ms. Schlafly continued, mentioning that she had raised six children and run for Congress as well. “I think a hard-working, well-organized C.E.O. type can handle it very well"

So...mostly split opinions with only women commenting. Hardly a bunch of Obama supporters having problems with it.

Going back to work 3 days later is being...pretty driven. Hell, I took more than 3 days off after my last kid was born.


No one has questioned her experience? I would beg to differ and so would a couple hundred news articles.


Strawman. You specifically stated "mommy track" No one has questioned her experience because she's on the "mommy track" because she obviously isn't on the mommy track when she runs off back to work 3 days after giving birth.

People question her experience because she's been mayor of a small town and only recently governor of Alaska. Not because she has 5 kids.


So you can cite proof that affirms that both teens involved were never taught about birth control, never had access to birth control?

I would like to see that proof. It takes two to tango as the saying goes. That certainly is a mitigating factor.

We have proof that even in a family that supports abstinence that teen sex still occurs. We're talking about a highly educated, very conservative and religious household. Now extrapolate to a single parent working multiple jobs to make ends meet.

The only potential mitigating factor is that the Palins may have been so career oriented that the children did not get a lot of guidance.

As for the dad...yes, it takes two to tango. It only takes one to say "no condom, no sex". His parents failed as well.

[vinea]

Nick, I agree with you that the concerns expressed in that New York Times article are plainly sexist. Some are holding her to a double standard. No one would ask those questions of a male candidate with young or adolescent children. It shouldn't be an issue that applies only to women. Rather, the question of balancing work and family should apply to women and men.

Except it doesn't. It is unfair that women have a double burden but it's not sexist to acknowedge that burden exists.

Career women know damn well that it's hard to juggle both career and kids. Career women also know that their husbands do a lot more than their own dads did (just ask their moms) but they STILL shoulder the vast majority of the workload.

How is it sexist for working women to think it's hard given that THEY have personal experience to know that...gee...it IS hard?

Whether Palin is up to the task is a different issue. Thus far the answer appears to be yes.

On the other hand, while being VP provides sufficient leeway, we're also talking about being back up to a really old President.

Being President is probably an order of magnitude more difficult than being Governor of Alaska.

[dmz]

When I read that headline I really had wonder whether I was reading The Onion. Does the rhetoric get any more bizarre? Where is Jason Jones and the 9/11 conspiracy crew when we need them?

[hardeeharhar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/us/politics/03wasilla.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

wow.

banning books. autocratic rule. pure republican awesome.

[dmz]

You're sllippin', dmzski!

Jason Jones.

http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/03/jasonjones.jpg

Alex Jones:

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r194/David_317/AJones%20exposed/alex_blast.jpg

Crap. Maybe I was thinking of Jesus Jones.

I did think her putting Frank "the bank" Murkowski's private jet on eBay was a scream.

[midwinter]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/us/politics/03wasilla.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

wow.

banning books. autocratic rule. pure republican awesome.

I loved this bit:

Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who said she attended every City Council meeting in Ms. Palin’s first year in office, said Ms. Palin brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting. “They were somehow morally or socially objectionable to her,” Ms. Kilkenny said.

The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, pledged to “resist all efforts at censorship,” Ms. Kilkenny recalled. Ms. Palin fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office but changed course after residents made a strong show of support. Ms. Emmons, who left her job and Wasilla a couple of years later, declined to comment for this article.

I'm particularly fond of how running off the corrupt old guard so you can install your corrupt new guard makes her a reformer.

[groverat]

So is this the new thing, to dismiss all Palin critiques as sexist?

She's a joke.
She's an embarrassment.
She's a corrupt governor from a corrupt state whose previous experience was the shit mayor of a podunk trailer park village.

She's used her daughter's teenage pregnancy as a political tool to reinforce an anti-abortion stance so that John McCain can have a motivated evangelical base.

Sarah Palin is a national embarrassment.
The woman has almost no redeeming qualities. She lacks any important experience, and while that can be forgiveable in certain circumstances, she has absolutely no national or international vision. If she had some established record of political philosophy as it pertained to the entire nation and our nation's role in the world this would be a different conversation. But to say she's a neophyte relative to the place she was thrust in by a desperate McCain campaign would be to understate just how absurd this spectacle is.

The entirety of her political career, up until a few days ago, was a lockdown focus on a state with fewer people than 10+ U.S. cities. Not only that, but she was a member of a political party whose entire idealogy was explicitly pro-Alaska-over-the-US. That might not be a problem for a state representative, but this woman is sitting in line behind a man who might die of various cancers; whose medical history is so scary that reporters are only allowed to look at it with ridiculous and draconian restrictions.

Anyone with a clear mind should be horrified by the thought of President Sarah Palin.

[tonton]

...whose previous experience was the shit mayor of a podunk trailer park village...

...during the tenure of which she fired people who disagreed with her, tried banning books in the local library that she disagreed with, campaigned on a platform limited to her ideas on abortion as a wedge issue, and was generally disliked in the community. Bravo!

[dmz]

Anyone with a clear mind should be horrified by the thought of President Sarah Palin.
I was thinking more of Jack Ryan with great legs. Sign me up for the fireworks.


groverat, you don't know what you're talking about. Look up the business surrounding the gas pipeline in Alaska, with Murkowski's baggage, and when you think you're ready to roll, get back to me. Yes, she's as wet behind the ears as she can be, but between crossing the Republican machine in that state...

a machine that is backing Ted Stephens, under indictment

...and telling BP and the other producers where to get off -- she's better than, say, a guy from Chicago, who has never crossed his party on anything -- whose foremost skill is telling narcissists what they want to hear.














Two things though: first, she's VP, which is worth "a bucket of warm piss" -- and second, how this will balance the budget, bring the national debt to under 35% of GDP, and get our current account balance under control is beyond me.

[tonton]

Two things though: first, she's VP, which is worth "a bucket of warm piss" -- and second, how this will balance the budget, bring the national debt to under 35% of GDP, and get our current account balance under control is beyond me.

The question you want the answer to is how to balance the budget without raising taxes on the rich, isn't it?

Balancing the budget is much more likely under an Obama administration, simply because he doesn't include that last part. Meanwhile he's going to cut taxes on 95% of Americans, which will get them into Walmart, trickling up to the rich people like Sam.

I'm telling you, demand side is the answer.

[dmz]

The question you want the answer to is how to balance the budget without raising taxes on the rich, isn't it?

Balancing the budget is much more likely under an Obama administration, simply because he doesn't include that last part.

It's not going to happen under either administration. Tax & Spend vs Borrow & Spend. The presidency is fine, but you can't just shrug off the parities and the Congress, etc, etc. I watched an economist for Barrack "the mulatto" <--- look! racist canard!! racist canard!! Obama, on Charlie Rose -- he had nothing to say about unfunded entitlements: the state of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, or the effect of giving out "free" healthcare heroin at America's allopath orgy...

I doubt McCain has anything to say about the real world, either.

[addabox]

It's not going to happen under either administration. Tax & Spend vs Borrow & Spend. The presidency is fine, but you can't just shrug off the parities and the Congress, etc, etc. I watched an economist for Barrack "the mulatto" <--- look! racist canard!! racist canard!! Obama, on Charlie Rose -- he had nothing to say about unfunded entitlements: the state of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, or the effect of giving out "free" healthcare heroin at America's allopath orgy...

I doubt McCain has anything to say about the real world, either.

Why even include "mulatto"? If you just want to bait people, why not just call him "colored" or "porch monkey"?

[Akumulator]

Why even include "mulatto"? If you just want to bait people, why not just call him "colored" or "porch monkey"?

Seriously. What a stupid fucking post. It's bizarre how people still can't look past race... even when they think they're being clever. It's pointless and unacceptable.

[Akumulator]

So is this the new thing, to dismiss all Palin critiques as sexist?

She's a joke.
She's an embarrassment.
She's a corrupt governor from a corrupt state whose previous experience was the shit mayor of a podunk trailer park village.

She's used her daughter's teenage pregnancy as a political tool to reinforce an anti-abortion stance so that John McCain can have a motivated evangelical base.

Sarah Palin is a national embarrassment.
The woman has almost no redeeming qualities. She lacks any important experience, and while that can be forgiveable in certain circumstances, she has absolutely no national or international vision. If she had some established record of political philosophy as it pertained to the entire nation and our nation's role in the world this would be a different conversation. But to say she's a neophyte relative to the place she was thrust in by a desperate McCain campaign would be to understate just how absurd this spectacle is.

The entirety of her political career, up until a few days ago, was a lockdown focus on a state with fewer people than 10+ U.S. cities. Not only that, but she was a member of a political party whose entire idealogy was explicitly pro-Alaska-over-the-US. That might not be a problem for a state representative, but this woman is sitting in line behind a man who might die of various cancers; whose medical history is so scary that reporters are only allowed to look at it with ridiculous and draconian restrictions.

Anyone with a clear mind should be horrified by the thought of President Sarah Palin.

Because I miss Artman's posts, I thought I'd post this image in his honor...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/kaneclapz.gif

Groverat pretty much nailed it as far as I'm concerned.

[tonton]

It's not going to happen under either administration. Tax & Spend vs Borrow & Spend. The presidency is fine, but you can't just shrug off the parities and the Congress, etc, etc. I watched an economist for Barrack [asinine comment removed] Obama, on Charlie Rose -- he had nothing to say about unfunded entitlements: the state of SS, Medicare, Medicaid, or the effect of giving out "free" healthcare heroin at America's allopath orgy...

I doubt McCain has anything to say about the real world, either.

So...

Tax and spend or borrow and spend...

I ask you again, which is more likely to balance the budget?

Are you really saying that McCain is going to cut spending that much, that even with a tax cut for the rich, the deficit will be reduced as much as it would under Obama who will raise tax on the rich and stimulate the economy with a tax cut for the poor and middle class?

Or do you still believe cutting taxes for the rich increases revenue? :lol:

[dmz]

So...

Tax and spend or borrow and spend...

I ask you again, which is more likely to balance the budget?

Are you really saying that McCain is going to cut spending....
dammit, tonton, nothing is going to change.

Entry Word: nothing
Function: noun
Text: 1 something that does not exist <his hopes were based on nothing>
Synonyms naught (or nought), nil, ||nix, wind
Idioms nothing at all, nothing whatever
Contrasted Words something
2
Synonyms ZERO 1, aught(or ought), cipher, goose egg, naught (or nought), zilch
3
Synonyms NONENTITY, cipher, insignificancy, nobody, nullity, whiffet, whippersnapper, whipster, zero, zilch
Idioms (the) little end of nothing whittled down to a point

[addabox]

How to compare the likely outcome of Republican and Democratic administrations:

A -Republican: take them at their word. If tax and deep spending cuts are featured, celebrate. If not, go to

B -Democrat: assume they're lying, assert their plan is at least as bad as the less than desirable Republican plan, regardless of what they say they're going to do.

If you can't win and you can't govern, you can at least declare the world to be irredeemable, so it's not like your failing, or anything.....

[tonton]

dammit, tonton, nothing is going to change.

So... assuming nothing changes, who are you voting for, and why, since economy seems to be one of your main issues? The person who is going to cut taxes more in your tax bracket, I assume. And I assume you're not as rich as e#s, so that person is Obama.

[groverat]

Which Republicans did Palin "cross"?

She ran a 527 to help Stevens (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/01/palin_was_a_director_of_embatt.html), this idea that she stood up to him doesn't wash in the least.

And can you be specific about her handling of the pipeline? I sincerely doubt it.

Her being chosen for VP is an insult to the collective national intelligence. She's an abortion wedge piece and nothing more.

[dmz]

Which Republicans did Palin "cross"?

She ran a 527 to help Stevens (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/01/palin_was_a_director_of_embatt.html), this idea that she stood up to him doesn't wash in the least.

And can you be specific about her handling of the pipeline? I sincerely doubt it.

Her being chosen for VP is an insult to the collective national intelligence. She's an abortion wedge piece and nothing more.
You may need to actually do your research on this. Just follow the business with the Gas pipeline, starting with the previous administration's gaffes. And then her running against someone with the political horsepower of Murkowski. Then read up on the troopergate business, and the call she got from -- I've slept since then -- some (R) honcho putting her on notice. Then read up on the problem that state is having with tainted Veco representatives.


And when you're done, we're still talking about "a bucket of warm piss."

[dmz]

So... assuming nothing changes, who are you voting for, and why, since economy seems to be one of your main issues? The person who is going to cut taxes more in your tax bracket, I assume. And I assume you're not as rich as e#s, so that person is Obama.

Third party -- either Lib. or Green. Face it, tonton, no one is talking about the things that matter in this election.

[BRussell]

I don't see how you folks can say that the politicians who are in office don't matter for the debt. The 1990s saw a steady decrease in the deficit, and the 2000s saw a steady increase in the deficit. That didn't happen by accident. That happened because of specific policies put into place by politicians.

[trailmaster308]

Ain't that the truth. Both are going to continue piling up mountains of debt*, bigger government, reduced liberty, less privacy, etc.

This is a joke and would be funny if it weren't so sad and despicable.

Personally I'm trying to get motivated to even vote, but if I do it'll almost certainly be a write-in.

*For those running around claiming someone is going to cut your taxes but will continue to pile on the debt, your being delusional. You have to look at three things: 1) current taxes, 2) (total) deficit + debt, 3) monetary inflation. All three of those effectively "taxes" in one form or another.

They are going to close the tax break loop holes for S-Corps. Thats is coming VERY soon!

[BRussell]

You need to look at the total debt. This has increased, irrespective of the President, non-stop for decades now. Some years faster, some slower, but never decreasing.

I don't know why I need to look at that and ignore everything else. The fact is, if you're concerned about deficits and debts, the 1990s were a good period and the 2000s have been a bad period. They were not the same. And the difference was due to politicians' policies.

[Bergermeister]

Interesting how this digressed to a discussion on economy from one on teenage sex.

[vinea]

Right, but I think you're adding things to the article that weren't there.

Since when? It was women, most of whom worked, wondering based on their own experiences if it would be too much.


Was the article about confronting gender stereotypes? No, in fact no one brought up the double standard at all. Indeed it is unfair that women have a double burden. Indeed it's not sexist to acknowledge that the double burden exists. However, it seemed more like those women were criticizing her based on her potential failure to conform to a traditional gender role than they were criticizing the unfairness of having to conform to that role in the first place. Maybe I'm adding things, too. It's kind of a vague piece.

Again, it was women commenting based on their own perceptions and experiences on whether it was going to be a hard to do both well. How on earth is that sexist?

It's sexist to assume the mother HAS to do most of the child care. It isn't sexist to observe that mothers DO do most of the child care in addition to managing their careers.

In any case, she has a nanny.

[BRussell]

Well you cannot look at deficits and ignore the total debt. Which many people do and continue to do.




Quite untrue. The late 1990's with the imaginary surplus was no different. It was an accounting trick. Look at the total debt over all periods. Don't take my word for it, go to the treasury department and look at their numbers.

The point here is that politicians (regardless of party) have a variety of mechanisms of promising us all the world (with no pain or payment) and delivering but hiding the payment through creative number shifting.

Well I don't want to derail this thread any more on this topic, so I'll make this my last post: I just don't understand you. The deficit was around 5% of GDP at the beginning of the 1990s, but by 2000 it was down to around 0%. Then in the 2000s that started rising and rising again, back to about where it was when the 1990s started. To wave your hand and just say "we're still in debt" is to ignore the very real differences between the two periods.

If someone weighs 250 but should weigh 170, and loses weight and gets down to 180, you don't say "there's no difference between 250 and 170 because you didn't make it all the way back to 170."

It just sounds to me like you're trying to diminish the real difference between the 1990s and 2000s -and my guess is that you're doing it for political reasons, because the good "weight loss" period happened when a Democrat was president and the bad "weight gain" period happened with conservatives in charge.

[CosmoNut]

I honestly haven't read much of anything from this thread, but I want to throw this out there:

If Bristol Palin's pregnancy should remain a "private" matter, why even issue a news release about it? I understand the blogosphere was speculating that the youngest child may be Brisol's, but here's how I'd handle everything:

1. Before the VP announcement, stick a ring on Bristol's finger and buy a ticket for her fiance' to join her.
2. When the blogosphere starts claiming that Trig is Bristol's, IF it hits the mainstream media release a short statement saying, "Any rampant speculation regarding the maternity of Trig Palin is patently ridiculous. Sarah Palin is Trig's mother and no other comments will be made on this matter.
3. When people start noticing Bristol's baby bump and asking questions, another simple statement can say, "Yes, Bristol Palin is pregnant and is engaged to the baby's father. Big deal. Mama and Papa Palin are excited at the prospect of being grandparents. Please respect the family's privacy."

Over and done.

I think the McCain campaign screwed the pooch on this one. Either they didn't know before the VP announcement or somebody didn't think all of this through well enough ahead of time.

[tonton]

You're focused exclusively on the (general fund) deficit but failing to take into account the total governmental debt. You're ignoring the social security trust fund and its liabilities.

And you're ignoring inflation and changes in the accounting procedure.

[FormerLurker]

You're focused exclusively on the (general fund) deficit but failing to take into account the total governmental debt. You're ignoring the social security trust fund and its liabilities.

Does this mean the only way to ever fully pay off the national debt would be to abolish Social Security?

[mydo]

Does this mean the only way to ever fully pay off the national debt would be to abolish Social Security?

You'd have to get rid of the pay roll tax if ya did that.

[hardeeharhar]

she really sucks...
ah well.

it is almost too clear that she didn't write the speech...

[midwinter]

she really sucks...
ah well.

it is almost too clear that she didn't write the speech...

The speech was apparently written before she was even selected.

[hardeeharhar]

The attack points, surely...

The family bits, which were far less refined, not so much.

[sammi jo]

re. that baby:

Who cares? And why? It's their family business, and nobody else's. Don't we Americans have lives of our own to deal with? Why do we have these obsessions with the personal affairs of others, and total strangers at that.

Sad. What is wrong with us all? Is it not a sad indictment of the national climate that such an irrelevent thread gets so much response?

I guess I am to blame as much as everyone else... since I contributed to this mess.

:(

.

[Bergermeister]

The attack points, surely...

The family bits, which were far less refined, not so much.

The fam part seemed thrown together in a couple of hours, or less, and was far too long. Sloppy, at best.

The talking points came out of the GOP playbook, which has been around forever.

Sadly, people fall for it.


Let's face it, there were several blatant falsehoods in the speech that nobody should have missed and, combined with the divisive nature of the whole thing, make the speech a pretty sure bet for the permanent file.

[Bergermeister]

re. that baby:

Who cares? And why? It's their family business, and nobody else's. Don't we Americans have lives of our own to deal with? Why do we have these obsessions with the personal affairs of others, and total strangers at that.

Sad. What is wrong with us all? Is it not a sad indictment of the national climate that such an irrelevent thread gets so much response?

I guess I am to blame as much as everyone else... since I contributed to this mess.

:(

.

Who took it to the front and used it? They did. I even think they may have planned it this way. They even got the father to be down from his red-neck playground to greet McCain at the airport. They played it for all they could while saying nobody could say anything. That is disgusting.

However, the baby is pretty much a non-issue (except where the entire scenario goes against everything they have been preaching, family, family values). There is plenty of material coming out about McCain's choice and decision-making that should scare the pants off of people.

[trumptman]

Politico (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13129.html)

Georgetown University professor Deborah Tannen, who has written best-selling books on gender differences, said she agrees with complaints that Palin skeptics — including prominent voices in the news media — have crossed a line by speculating about whether the Alaska governor is neglecting her family in pursuit of national office.

“What we’re dealing with now, there’s nothing subtle about it,” said Tannen. “We’re dealing with the assumption that child-rearing is the job of women and not men. Is it sexist? Yes.”

“There’s no way those questions would be asked of a male candidate,” said Howard Wolfson a former top strategist for Clinton’s presidential campaign.

Look, it isn't imaginary and guess what, there are a certain 18 million voters who sense the Obama media bias kicking into sexist overdrive to defend their messiah.

[Bergermeister]

Women seemed turned off by Palin:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080903/pl_afp/usvotewomen

And those 18 million cracks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080905/ap_on_el_pr/from_clinton_to_palin

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/06/2008-09-06_sarah_palin_may_have_women_flocking__to_.html

[midwinter]

complaints that Palin skeptics — including prominent voices in the news media


Who are these Palin skeptics? I saw that one piece in the Times, and then another one in the AP, I believe, but they both talked about "liberals" and "skeptics, but the media reports all seem to point to people who don't seem to exist.

[addabox]

Here's an article in Time (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1838535,00.html?imw=Y) that references "public forums" as well as the author's inbox and subconscious. Here's one on ABC.com (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Story?id=5710888&page=2) that talks about "liberals" and cites some bloggers.

Here's Newsbusters (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2008/09/02/nyt-questions-palins-parenting-bumiller-flubs-palins-aip-membership) claiming the NYT is questioning Palin's parenting skills, referencing an article that apparently doesn't, with a last bit about a pod cast and a single remark.

Here's a rightwing blog (http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/sarah-palins-parenting-choices-come.html) that claims that Palin's parenting choices are under attack from "radical feminists", the proof of which is apparently another post on the same blog which cites passages from some blogs that talk about the hypocrisy of talking about Bristol's "choice" when Palin opposes choice and how Plain's politics are bad for women, but nothing at all about her fitness as a parent.

I'm think I'm seeing a pattern.

[midwinter]

Indeed. Sort of like "voter fraud."

[addabox]

Yeah. Fuck, this is depressing.

[midwinter]

Yeah. Fuck, this is depressing.

Say it enough times and it'll wind up in some gullible reporter's story. And then it's true!

Iraq! WMD! Iraq! WMD! Voter Fraud! Liberals attacking Palin's motherhood!

As an aside, Adda: Go buy this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012QK8SA/ref=sr_f2_album_6?ie=UTF8&child=B0012QOX9A&qid=1220768532&sr=102-6) right now.

[@_@ Artman]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/249270409_664e6841fa.jpg

[midwinter]

Awww. An average Utah family!

[Outsider]

Artman, i prefer this one:


http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/duggar-mortality.jpg