The Ultimate Abortion Thread

[hardeeharhar]

First, I want one rule:

We all agree that unwanted pregnancies are the disease, and abortions are the symptom. If you don't agree get the hell out of this thread.


On one other thing, I think we can all agree that we should be focusing on reducing the number of abortions.

My simple suggestion is that we should attack the disease (unwanted pregnancies) rather than the symptom (abortions).

Solutions to this problem are diverse and can be separated into two broad classes:

Reduce rate of unwanted pregnancies by education, use of contraceptives, and above all else education.

Make unwanted pregnancies wanted <-- this is an approach I have heard little about, but follows from a demand by pro-choice and pro-life advocates for consideration of adoption, but much more would need to be done.

I will focus on the second approach, since I think this thread will devolve into a debate about the first. Obviously, there will be a rigorous debate about the creation of a safety net for mothers who have unwanted pregnancies. However, all arguments suggesting that this approach condones underage sex or other risky sexual behaviors are merely signs that the person who is arguing doesn't care so much about the rearing of the child or the personal responsibility of the mother, but rather about the original "amoral" behavior.

What I think is needed is a national (or state) fund for pre-natal care, with educational support for those of the appropriate age. Adoption programs need to be fixed. Basically, we want to make it easier for women who have an unwanted pregnancy to make the CHOICE to continue to term. When there exists a social net for unwanted pregnancies, less of them will be terminated.

Alright, that's enough for now...

Thundercats, GO!

[Fellowship]

First of all great thread!

I will have to cover one bit of business.

If the life of the mother is in danger she is entitled to take measures to secure her life over the baby.

Now to address the points and respect the format which you request I would say:

Abortion many times is made "socially acceptable" by those on the left. This is a shame from my vantage point as abortion really is murder and should never be considered socially acceptable for reasons of convenience of ending a pregnancy. There are other options and methods to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. I agree 100%

I take issue with the notion that abortion is the "symptom" when as I see it abortion for many is the "cure" similar to sinus medication.

People have grown to rely on the cure for unwanted pregnancies. Again let me stress it is socially acceptable to so many on the left.

People need support in times of uncertainty and crisis. It should not be a given or a default that one can just abort the problems.

In our culture we have come to believe that we can sweep all of our troubles under the rug with a pill, a bankruptcy, a credit card, a one night stand, a drink, a drug of choice and yes an abortion.

Gone out the window for so many believing the mantra of "progressives" is the notion of discipline and hope through distress and crisis chapters in life.

In place of support and hope is a bandaid which is truly empty and is in fact murder.

Our society needs less bandaids and more servants to help hurting and distressed people.

Less false progressives and more loving servants.

Fellows

[BRussell]

I think it's worthwhile to look at this (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_bir_rat-health-teen-birth-rate). The US has the highest teen birth rate in the world, at 6.4% of teen girls having babies. Eastern European countries are the next highest, varying from 3% to 6%. The UK has the highest teen birth rate in Western Europe at 3.3%. It's 2.3% in Austria, 1.3% in Germany, and less than 1% in Italy, France, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Japan. (Here's the abortion rate (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita) across different countries.)

[trumptman]

I think it's worthwhile to look at this (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_bir_rat-health-teen-birth-rate). The US has the highest teen birth rate in the world, at 6.4% of teen girls having babies. Eastern European countries are the next highest, varying from 3% to 6%. The UK has the highest teen birth rate in Western Europe at 3.3%. It's 2.3% in Austria, 1.3% in Germany, and less than 1% in Italy, France, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Japan. (Here's the abortion rate (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita) across different countries.)

I think those numbers don't make sense in isolation. Those countries often have lower birthrates no matter what age the population in comparison to the United States. We need to create a ratio that compares teen birth rates to the overall birthrate. Japan as an example has 1.2 children per couple for a birthrate while the U.S. has 2.1 children. So we need to factor more births overall will likely also mean more teenage births.

Finally we need to look at the percentage of the population that is of child bearing age. Most of these countries, including the U.S. to some degree have become elderly heavy. If a country has proportionally fewer teens, it makes sense that the rate will be much smaller as well since there are... well fewer of them with whom to fornicate.

[Fellowship]

Sometimes you just have to know how to set boundaries to the "Hey baby come on" invitation.

http://scenariosusa.org/lastexit/todayifoundout_320.mov

Fellows

[dmz]

First, I want one rule:

We all agree that unwanted pregnancies are the disease, and abortions are the symptom. If you don't agree get the hell out of this thread.
I don't think you could be more off base there.

The problem is sin: and both unwanted pregnancies and the willingness to murder your offspring are symptoms. But they are "symptoms" that have to occur in tandem for the current slaughter of the innocents to be happening.

You can work the Excel sheets on this all you want, but their blood is crying from the ground, and wont be forgotten.

[hardeeharhar]

I don't think you could be more off base there.

The problem is sin: and both unwanted pregnancies and the willingness to murder your offspring are symptoms. But they are "symptoms" that have to occur in tandem for the current slaughter of the innocents to be happening.

You can work the Excel sheets on this all you want, but their blood is crying from the ground, and wont be forgotten.
Then get out of the thread, dmz.

You believe that human nature is sin. You have no solutions to this. Your religion has offered no solutions, but asks the world to somehow fix its problems by praying to absolve its sins. This, my friend, is an idiotic and completely failed approach.

You want to fix the problem but completely fail to realize the gravity of reality. Good luck.

[e1618978]

The problem is sin

Obviously you are wrong - since you can change the number of unwanted pregnancies through education. If "sin" was the cause of the unwanted pregnancies, then it would stay unchanged no matter what education is given.

Since the US is more religious than Europe, it should be more "sin free" also - how come we have more unwanted pregnancies with more religion? It should be less by your hypothesis.

My hypothesis is that lack of proper education leads to both religion and unwanted pregnancies.

[dmz]

Then get out of the thread, dmz.

You believe that human nature is sin. You have no solutions to this. Your religion has offered no solutions, but asks the world to somehow fix its problems by praying to absolve its sins. This, my friend, is an idiotic and completely failed approach.

You want to fix the problem but completely fail to realize the gravity of reality. Good luck.
No, I don't believe that "human nature is sin" -- that's not accurate at all.

When you encounter a culture that wants to murder it's offspring out of convenience, simply because it can't understand that one-night stands, and free-for-all "commitments" won't prepare you for real life, then no one can provide a solution. Murder is a crime against God, true, but is also a very serious Existential problem. When you try to assuage the moral impetus that drives what is essentially self-murder, your playing statistical games to drive away guilt. All for nothing.

I was reading about the efforts in Africa to combat HIV/AIDS over the weekend -- it would appear that there is an answer out there, and it just might be moral/Existential.

What is stupid is pretending that you can legislate people out from under an Existential threat, you ought to at least be honest about that.

[dmz]

Obviously you are wrong - since you can change the number of unwanted pregnancies through education. If "sin" was the cause of the unwanted pregnancies, then it would stay unchanged no matter what education is given.

Since the US is more religious than Europe, it should be more "sin free" also - how come we have more unwanted pregnancies with more religion? It should be less by your hypothesis.

My hypothesis is that lack of proper education leads to both religion and unwanted pregnancies.

But you see, bringing up Europe without noting that the replacement rates there, seems pointless. If the goal is to disappear eventually, then hardeeharhar is right, we have nothing to talk about.

Sin will always be with us -- true -- but selling cheap-O relationships and easy sex is what has "caused" this. In reality, it all works together -- the same drive to narcissism is the same drive that is propelling people who can't keep their legs together -- because hey -- we're just sex objects to each other and not personalities to know and love. (We are only personalities to be true to when it's convenient.)

[e1618978]

the same drive to narcissism is the same drive that is propelling people who can't keep their legs together

It isn't narcissism, it is religious people who are the problem:

religious people complain -> less education -> more accidental pregnancies

Sex isn't the problem - if it was protected sex then everything would be fine. It is unprotected sex due to lack of education, caused by religious people. There is a correlation between the number of unwanted pregnancies in a state, and the number of religious people in that state - religion is the problem.

[dmz]

It isn't narcissism, it is religious people who are the problem:

religious people complain -> less education -> more accidental pregnancies

Sex isn't the problem - if it was protected sex then everything would be fine. It is unprotected sex due to lack of education, caused by religious people. There is a correlation between the number of unwanted pregnancies in a state, and the number of religious people in that state - religion is the problem.

That's nonsense -- the West was just fine with its incidental rates of unwanted pregnancy -- now we're telling people they are alternately sex objects and life partners willy-nilly. That is the problem. The whole nation proves it; our intellectual step-parents in Europe are leading the way numerically. Like I said, if ceasing to exist is the goal...

But in any case, it sounds as if more legislation is the answer. What's not to like?

[e1618978]

That's nonsense -- the West was just fine with its incidental rates of unwanted pregnancy -- now we're telling people they are alternately sex objects and life partners willy-nilly. That is the problem. The whole nation proves it; our intellectual step-parents in Europe are leading the way numerically. Like I said, if ceasing to exist is the goal...

But in any case, it sounds as if more legislation is the answer. What's not to like?

Nothing you just said makes any sense to me - it is gibberish.

[Flounder]

I say we just go back to marrying women off for chattel and getting them producing babies at 14.

[tonton]

dmz still thinks humans will go extinct if we start evening out the sky high population growth.

Call me again when global population growth reaches equilibrium. Then we can talk.

The solution for local population decline is immigration from areas where there is still plenty of growth. Duh.

There are enough people in the world!

There are enough people in the USA!

People should stop having unwanted babies!

[dmz]

Nothing you just said makes any sense to me - it is gibberish.

Oh no you don't -- you flubbed it when you wouldn't countenance European fertility rates. The rest is misdirection.


Keep the hanky-panky down to a dull roar, and you'll have your final abortion solution.

[dmz]

dmz still thinks humans will go extinct if we start evening out the sky high population growth.

Call me again when global population growth reaches equilibrium. Then we can talk.

The solution for local population decline is immigration from areas where there is still plenty of growth. Duh.

There are enough people in the world!

There are enough people in the USA!

People should stop having unwanted babies!
Yes, but the whole "he said Denmark will cease to exist in 20XX for lack of fertility, ergo, the complainant is a white supremacist" thing is getting old.


Old!

[tonton]

Yes, but the whole "he said Denmark will cease to exist in 20XX for lack of fertility, ergo, the complainant is a white supremacist" thing is getting old.

Old!

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're saying that countries should not allow immigration because diversity is a bad thing, presumably because local culture becomes diluted.

I'm not calling it racist. But it's naïve to deny the fact that culture evolves, with or without diversity, and it's even more naïve to think that closed borders and localized population maintenance is a "solution" to this non-problem.

[BRussell]

I just want to say that this truly IS the ultimate abortion thread.

[dmz]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're saying that countries should not allow immigration because diversity is a bad thing, presumably because local culture becomes diluted.

I'm not calling it racist. But it's naïve to deny the fact that culture evolves, with or without diversity, and it's even more naïve to think that closed borders and localized population maintenance is a "solution" to this non-problem.

No, it's not that at all -- it's the "hey look what they're doing in Europe culturally" mantra, but when you try to follow that with "but at the rate they're going...." the pinball machine flips to "TILT!"

The whole conversation is an abstract "hey, let's try by legislation [as if] this Existential approach" but the moment it's challenged -- and still trying to be focused on the real basic Birth/Life/Death issues -- there's this bizarre argumentative canard thrown in the way.


Sheeesh

[tonton]

No, it's not that at all -- it's the "hey look what they're doing in Europe culturally" mantra, but when you try to follow that with "but at the rate they're going...." the pinball machine flips to "TILT!"

The whole conversation is an abstract "hey, let's try by legislation [as if] this Existential approach" but the moment it's challenged -- and still trying to be focused on the real basic Birth/Life/Death issues -- there's this bizarre argumentative canard thrown in the way.


Sheeesh

I agree with e#s.... you make no sense.

At the rate they're going, what, exactly?

They will have to promote immigration?

Oh NOES!!!!

[dmz]

Oh. Lord.

I should have just put "mulatto" in my first post, and been done with it.

[Akumulator]

Oh. Lord.

I should have just put "mulatto" in my first post, and been done with it.

Why? I'm still trying to figure out what you're going on about. What's your fucking point? (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1301736&postcount=142)

[tonton]

Oh. Lord.

I should have just put "mulatto" in my first post, and been done with it.

I think you're pretending to make jokes about racism so that when someone points out that you don't like the idea of mixed race, you can accuse them of calling you a racist.

Please answer this question...

Is mixed race okay?

I have a mixed race daughter. Is that going to destroy Chinese and American culture?

[tonton]

Here's another mulatto named Barry. A genius, actually:

http://www.shotbybothsides.com/ada_negr.jpg

I suggest you listen to his song "Split".

Couldn't find the lyrics online... so I transcribed them (it's one of my favorite tracks).

Without further ado (or a don't)
Allow me to impose myself upon you

I'm El Deludo
Oscar De La Soundtrack
Mr. Moss Side Gory
From Rusholme, with blood

That's me, H. P.
Harry Pendulum, the last of the big-time swingers
I'm livin' off a theme
The cold war reality
Takes the subtle shape of

Bridges and houses and pitches and ditches and vampires and witches an itch in my britches requiring some stitches and central control says that I gotta go I can't hide in the snow I stand down in the dark and I passed as a master that thinks a lot faster than I give him credit which raises my limit I'd rather not split it but truth in my soul is the notion that I'm gonna SPLIT!

But look
Over there
What light through yonder windscreen breaks
Steering the wheels of this tired old jalopy
Onward and upward into desire

It's simply majestic and my English Breakfasts
slip through my fingers like slivers of ice
cooling my burnt out brow-beaten brow

To breathe again sweet river
Sparkling shades of chestnut burnished copper and jade
And in the moonlight once you've cast your shadow aside
Decide you're the one you wanted to be!

Question: who did it?
Answer: me.
Shrewdiness abounds
The man with the golden arm...erican excess card
Primo de primo
And splat goes the God damn
Goodbye, cucaracha
See y'around like a Russeau
If you feel with blind hue

Fivers and divers and wheelers and dealers my baby says maybe so maybe soleil be and gives me a look I give me a left hook follow through with a right that has plenty of bite and the day is a cinch though I'm tempted to flinch with the thought that I may or in no better way and the concrete and clay that I pound from the grey disappears from my view with the notion that I'm gonna SPLIT!

And all of Ethiopia awaits for me!

But I don't got a passport
So I guess it's that time that we gotta
Pass the port

Oh, please, do forgive me, JFT
I mean uh... pass the port of Saints
And take a good long look
Into my face
What d'you make?
Yeah that's right

I'm of mixed race

No, no, no, y'know, I don't mean like ah an Englishman, a Scotsman and a Negro and a Russian all ah competing against each other in some significant track and field event

But then again...
And this is where things really come into play
An extremely important part of the process, you see
If all of those guys ain't on the same team, or if uh, one of them, like you know
Even just one of them makes a dumb pass
Then that's me

Split

Completely undone
Half of me one
And half of me none
No longer whole
Just one gaping hole

Shot right through to my shotten-through soul
Oh God, perish the thoughts
'Cause next thing you know, and this is like uh, really where it is
It's just like Meinl said
There's a light at the end of the tunnel
And when you see it, it means
That you're dead - POP!

-Barry (Hussein) Adamson

[@_@ Artman]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/big781358.gif

I'm back. In my usual way. ;) I'll be posting a great topic soon myself....:smokey:

[hardeeharhar]

(yay)

[Fellowship]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/big781358.gif

I'm back. In my usual way. ;) I'll be posting a great topic soon myself....:smokey:

Artman

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!

It was not the same without Artman in the house.

Fellows