Why they hate her (Sarah Palin) [Archive]

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trumptman

09-07-2008, 06:17 PM

When Barack's berserkers lost the plot (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/07/uselections2008.republicans2008)

My colleagues in the American liberal press had little to fear at the start of the week. Their charismatic candidate was ahead in virtually every poll. George W Bush was so unpopular that conservatives were scrambling around for reasons not to invite the Republican President to the Republican convention. Democrats had only to maintain their composure and the White House would be theirs. During the 1997 British general election, the late Lord Jenkins said that Tony Blair was like a man walking down a shiny corridor carrying a precious vase. He was the favourite and held his fate in his hands. If he could just reach the end of the hall without a slip, a Labour victory was assured. The same could have been said of the American Democrats last week. But instead of protecting their precious advantage, they succumbed to a spasm of hatred and threw the vase, the crockery, the cutlery and the kitchen sink at an obscure politician from Alaska.

For once, the postmodern theories so many of them were taught at university are a help to the rest of us. As a Christian, conservative anti-abortionist who proved her support for the Iraq War by sending her son to fight in it, Sarah Palin was 'the other' - the threatening alien presence they defined themselves against. They might have soberly examined her reputation as an opponent of political corruption to see if she was truly the reformer she claimed to be. They might have gently mocked her idiotic creationism, while carefully avoiding all discussion of the racist conspiracy theories of Barack Obama's church.

But instead of following a measured strategy, they went berserk. On the one hand, the media treated her as a sex object. The New York Times led the way in painting Palin as a glamour-puss in go-go boots you were more likely to find in an Anchorage lap-dancing club than the Alaska governor's office.

On the other, liberal journalists turned her family into an object of sexual disgust: inbred rednecks who had stumbled out of Deliverance. Palin was meant to be pretending that a handicapped baby girl was her child when really it was her wanton teenage daughter's. When that turned out to be a lie, the media replaced it with prurient coverage of her teenage daughter, who was, after all, pregnant, even though her mother was not going to do a quick handover at the maternity ward and act as if the child was hers.

Palin rises above shrill media (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/palin_rises_above_shrill_media.html)

Don't feel bad for the Democrats. They asked for it. The bunch that President Bush aptly described as "the angry left" has been high-sticking Palin since Day One with a series of assists from their friends in the news media.

As you may have noticed, this has not been the fourth estate's finest hour. Reporters, anchors and pundits have mocked Palin and belittled her accomplishments. They've turned tabloid by going nuts over her pregnant teenage daughter, even demanding -- according to top McCain strategist Steve Schmidt -- DNA and blood tests to see if there is truth to the blogger-conceived conspiracy theory that Palin's youngest child really belongs to her oldest daughter. Some even shamefully descended into sexism by calling her a product of political affirmative action, depicting her as a pretty face with no substance -- McCain's "trophy vice," according to New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd -- and asking 1950s-type questions about how she expected to balance family and a new gig as vice president.

The sexism continued after Palin's speech. A spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called the speech "shrill and sarcastic." That brought some members of the media back to their senses. CNN's Campbell Brown and Gloria Borger were among the female journalists who cringed at the word "shrill" and pointed out that -- while that was a term leveled at Hillary Clinton -- you don't often hear it directed at a man.

Rallying the Right, Confounding the Left (http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-rennie0907.artsep07,0,2889619.column)

True believers even amended their dogma. Palin prompted the left to reveal a distaste for mothers in politics with young children at home. When did they start telling their daughters they could grow up to be president of the United States, but only after their children reached an undisclosed age?

Palin's judges attached no corollary for men in public life. Forty years ago, Robert Kennedy exulted in announcing during his presidential campaign that his wife was expecting their 11th child.

It was open season Monday when the Palins announced that their 17-year-old daughter is pregnant. Advocates of a sweeping application of the right to privacy decided no opinion or inquiry was too intrusive if it could damage the candidate.

Palin's critics applied some new math. Five children, including a baby with special needs, and a pregnant daughter was too much. And, if John McCain had really known about the pregnant daughter, he would not have chosen the egregious mother under their calculus.

The New York Times disagreed with Obama's merciful statement that children are a no-go zone and put three stories about the pregnancy on Tuesday's front page.

Palin has only herself to blame. She refused to buckle. Worse, she returned fire with jocular cheer. The Volkswagen-driving diva, who took the stage Wednesday, ignored the pathos and launched into an aria about the joy of her common life. She is not aggrieved. No millionaire's refrain — mewling over the cost of dance lessons — for her.

The left began baffled and tumbled into incomprehension. Ideology's enforcers don't understand how a woman, any woman, could be a conservative. That a Republican convention, their capitol of misogyny, would not only nominate this woman but be dizzy with enthusiasm for her is an abomination inside the hive. A spokeswoman for the National Organization for Women accused Palin of being more of a "white man" than a woman. Deviation breeds contempt. The Washington Post's Richard Cohen sounded deranged when he reached into antiquity to liken Palin to Caligula's horse, the crazy emperor's choice for consul.

The Alaska governor should brace herself for worse, especially if someone turns up proof she's a denizen of the local Wal-Mart. In the smartest zip codes, they'll turn puce from angry condescension.

Gee, and I wonder why someone wouldn't grant an interview request for this nonsense. I have no doubt it will continue and yes, the regular folks out there absolutely hear and get what the media is doing. No candidate is going to contribute to the attempts to smear them by the media.

Palin should strike fear (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/palin_should_strike_fear_in_de.html)

Journalists last week cast aside the mask of objectivity to reveal they are so deeply in the tank for Mr. Obama most have grown gills. For six days, Sarah Palin and her family were subjected to a relentless barrage of innuendo. Journalists were trying to "define" her before she had an opportunity to introduce herself to the people in the lower 48. She was portrayed as an ignorant redneck from a hick town who should be home caring for her children instead of running for high public office.

Then Sarah Palin got her opportunity to speak, and her enemies learned firsthand why her nickname is "Sarah Barracuda."

Dismiss if you will the rapturous response to Ms. Palin's speech by the delegates in the convention hall and the posters on conservative blogs. The best testament to its power was the lame response of the Obama campaign. They noted she had the help of a speechwriter (the very talented Matt Scully) in preparing her remarks. Well, duh. Every major political figure has speechwriters. Sarah Palin works fine without a script. It's Barack Obama who ums and ahs without a teleprompter.

In my lifetime, I've only heard three or four speeches (all by Ronald Reagan) that I thought were as good or better than Sarah Palin's. She's as much a natural in politics as Michael Jordan was in basketball.

"Several moderate Democrat friends of mine have been e-mailing -- few if any would ever vote for McCain -- but all agree Palin was very strong," Michael Crowley wrote on The New Republic's blog. "The more liberal among them are a little panicked."

With good reason. With a smile on her face, Ms. Palin sliced and diced Barack Obama with the skill she dresses a moose she just shot. There were a host of good lines which I'm sure we'll see in McCain commercials in the near future. But ultimately the most effective may be this one: "In small towns, we don't know quite what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening."

A feminist's argument for McCain's VP (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/06/INB312NP3M.DTL&type=politics)

Clinton voters, in particular, have received a political wake-up call they never expected. Having watched their candidate and their principles betrayed by the very people who are supposed to be the flame-holders for equal rights and fairness, they now look across the aisle and see a woman who represents everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for. Women can have a family and a career. We can be whatever we choose, on our own terms. For some, that might mean shooting a moose. For others, perhaps it's about shooting a movie or shooting for a career as a teacher. However diverse our passions, we will vote for a system that allows us to make the choices that best suit us. It's that simple.

The rank bullying of the Clinton candidacy during the primary season has the distinction of simply being the first revelation of how misogynistic the party has become. The media led the assault, then the Obama campaign continued it. Trailblazer Geraldine Ferraro, who was the first Democratic vice presidential candidate, was so taken aback by the attacks that she publicly decried nominee Barack Obama as "terribly sexist" and openly criticized party chairman Howard Dean for his remarkable silence on the obvious sexism.

Ironically, all this at an event that was negotiated and twisted at every turn in an astounding effort not to promote a woman.

Virtually moments after the GOP announcement of Palin for vice president, pundits on both sides of the aisle began to wonder if Clinton supporters - pro-choice women and gays to be specific - would be attracted to the McCain-Palin ticket. The answer is, of course. There is a point where all of our issues, including abortion rights, are made safer not only if the people we vote for agree with us - but when those people and our society embrace a respect for women and promote policies that increase our personal wealth, power and political influence.

Make no mistake - the Democratic Party and its nominee have created the powerhouse that is Sarah Palin, and the party's increased attacks on her (and even on her daughter) reflect that panic.

The party has moved from taking the female vote for granted to outright contempt for women. That's why Palin represents the most serious conservative threat ever to the modern liberal claim on issues of cultural and social superiority. Why? Because men and women who never before would have considered voting for a Republican have either decided, or are seriously considering, doing so.

They are deciding women's rights must be more than a slogan and actually belong to every woman, not just the sort approved of by left-wing special interest groups.

Palin's candidacy brings both figurative and literal feminist change. The simple act of thinking outside the liberal box, which has insisted for generations that only liberals and Democrats can be trusted on issues of import to women, is the political equivalent of a nuclear explosion.

BOOOOOM:lol:

On the day McCain announced her selection as his running mate, Palin thanked Clinton and Ferraro for blazing her trail. A day later, Ferraro noted her shock at Palin's comment. You see, none of her peers, no one, had ever publicly thanked her in the 24 years since her historic run for the White House. Ferraro has since refused to divulge for whom she's voting. Many more now are realizing that it does indeed take a woman - who happens to be a Republican named Sarah Palin.

Keep denying it. (http://www.gallup.com/poll/110050/Gallup-Daily-McCain-Moves-Ahead-48-45.aspx) Keep spinning it. Palin is going to help change this election. Obama claims to represent change and for his first and most important choice chose a 35 year serving, 65 year old white man who, while nice has the sorts of slips and quips that reflect the thinking that goes on behind the PC platitudes. Obama chose the past.

McCain chose the future. He chose the new and the different. Those who claim to want different showed with their scorn and disdain that they want the same old thing and they used the same old sexist, misogynistic arguments to slap at and attempt to define the true change in this campaign. That first decision really did reveal a lot about each man.

Can anyone tell me how a state governor, any state governor gains experience in foreign policy while serving their state? Executive experience is what counts and that is why we seldom if ever select senators for president and often elect governors. In this instance we can't elect a governor but I know which I would rather put a heartbeat away.

Every hurdle screamed about with regard to Palin will be approached, met and cleared. The left knows this and it is what has them in such a panic. They can scream about it early and often. They can demand their made-up checklist of priorities be met and that the people we elect to lead somehow follow their priorities and timelines. It won't happen. Reporters can cast their disdain and scorn around forgetting that they are to report the news instead of creating it. The profit reports will show rivers of red ink. Their spin will not alter the reality, and in the end, the electorate will not buy their lie.

@_@ Artman

09-07-2008, 06:36 PM

It's McCain.

Palin and McCain’s Shotgun Marriage (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/opinion/07rich.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

“God only made one John McCain, and he is his own man,” said the shafted Lieberman in his own tedious convention speech last week. What a pathetic dupe. McCain is now the man of James Dobson and Tony Perkins.

His decision-making process is impetuous and, in its Bush-like preference for gut instinct over facts, potentially reckless.

As far as Palin is concerned, they didn't even bother vetting her (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html) and surprise, surprise, she isn't even qualified to campaign, let alone lead. She's hiding from the press because she can't even answer questions on the issues.

icfireball

09-07-2008, 06:38 PM

Thank you, Hurricane Trumptman.

soulcrusher

09-07-2008, 06:48 PM

victimize Palin, get pity votes, please go ahead.

I don't care much about her gender or family life - she wants to teach creationism in schools, that's a deal breaker for me (I am a scientist, I can't help it).

shetline

09-07-2008, 07:13 PM

The only "panic" I feel is caused by knowing we're so close to idiocracy in this country, that Republicans seem to be good at playing the American people for idiots and being richly rewarded for it.

I still think Obama is going to win, but I'm ashamed of this country that it's even close enough a race that I can't say so with great certainty.

SpamSandwich

09-07-2008, 07:39 PM

Hate her? We don't even know her! And oddly enough, that's just how McCain's people want it.

hardeeharhar

09-07-2008, 08:18 PM

Biden is kinda a rock-star:

Asked whether he'd debate Palin differently than he would Republicans Mitt Romney or Tom Ridge, two former governors who figured into speculation about John McCain's running mate, Biden said the only difference is that he knows their positions on issues.

''I have no idea what her policies are. I assume they're the same as John's. I just don't know,'' he said of Palin.

''Everybody talks about change. Let me tell you something, I am fascinated to find out that all of the sudden John McCain and Sarah Palin are the agents of change,'' Biden said. ''Name me one single place where the McCain-Palin ticket disagrees with George Bush.''

Now, obviously, McCain's campaign will try to shift the change argument to the less principled culture of Washington, but I am not sure that that will be successful as McCain is part and parcel of that culture... At least for the moment Obama's campaign is keeping it high brow in the mud.

groverat

09-07-2008, 11:01 PM

Don't pick on the girl, she's too fragile and weak to answer questions from mean 'ole boys. :(

addabox

09-08-2008, 12:03 AM

The idea that the only negative response to Palin consists of sexist attacks is simply, and very obviously, untrue. Embellishing a falsehood with feverish imaginings about what something that isn't happening indicates about people that don't exist is a waste of everyone's time, to be charitable.

Anyone obliged to argue from such transparently dishonest position doesn't have a serious case to make.

There's really nothing else worth saying about this. Good night.

Bergermeister

09-08-2008, 09:21 AM

It is so good it deserves replaying everywhere: The Republican take on the gender card:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

The full episode is chock full of examples of similar quality.

Bergermeister

09-08-2008, 09:30 AM

Don't pick on the girl, she's too fragile and weak to answer questions from mean 'ole boys. :(

Didn't she call herself a lipstick-wearing pit-bull?

trumptman

09-08-2008, 10:02 AM

Thank you, Hurricane Trumptman.

You're welcome.

:lol:

Somehow I find it hard to believe the honesty of these arguments.

Don't worry. Your endorsement isn't necessary.

victimize Palin, get pity votes, please go ahead.

I don't care much about her gender or family life - she wants to teach creationism in schools, that's a deal breaker for me (I am a scientist, I can't help it).

Hey look, a policy disagreement. I'm pretty sure those aren't sexist so you are in the clear SC.

Funny, but you seem to be citing media sources in your attempts to justify your perception that the media is a single voter block behind Obama. Now, one would have to be an idiot if they didn't see that hackneyed argument as bit, um, well blatantly false...

You know Obama seems to be doing this as well. He just dismissively complains that Republicans are just "making stuff up," goes about his merry way and drops a couple more points in the polls. I hope that trend continues.

Finally the media are only donating to Democrats at a rate of 100 to 1. So sure, there is still that one out there. However it is pretty clear the rest want Obama. Call it hackneyed. Call it making up stuff and please, continue to dismiss it instead of addressing it. I put my stake down about how this would play out in the media bias thread and I would say that so far, I am dead on.

Forgetting Obama, what does choice of future or past have to do with anything? Honestly, the statement that someone choose the past is meaningless. The problem with you Nick, is that you believe these chest thumping expressions mean something. They do not, and no matter how much you ruffle your feathers, you look like an impassioned idiot whenever you do.

Were you expecting McCain not to receive a post convention bounce? It looks like it was about the same size as Obama's...

Chest bumping expressions, you mean like HOPE™, CHANGE™ and "heartbeat away from the presidency?" By the reckoning of many on here and many in the media, McCain had just tossed away his bounce and his chances at the presidency. I'd also call it bigger than Obama's since he is now tied and before he was down a few points.

None of this means a damned thing, and yes you need to be called on it.

Then let me repeat it so the 18 million can hear it. You aren't the female voter or Hillary supporter.

McCain chose the future. He chose the new and the different. Those who claim to want different showed with their scorn and disdain that they want the same old thing and they used the same old sexist, misogynistic arguments to slap at and attempt to define the true change in this campaign. That first decision really did reveal a lot about each man.

HOPE + CHANGE = 65 year old white male Joe Biden OVER Hillary Clinton who is fully qualified and actually earned those votes.

*coughBillRichardson*

No problem there, you will note that I very much promoted Bill Richardson early in the primary discussions on here. I liked him very much as a candidate. Apparently though in both ignoring him and selecting Obama, Democratic voters could care less about foreign policy experience. It is ironic that they now attempt to disqualify a historic choice with their non-priority.

Funny. Let's go with executive experience is what counts. Please explain how Palin helps McCain with his executive experience. Really, this will be sooo terribly interesting.

McCain has executive experience from his time in the military so he doesn't need help.

Any meaning is this paragraph is unfortunately covered in the spittle Nick produced while writing it. Whose profits will run red (they aren't profits, then, by the way Nick)?

I typed correct. The losses are real.

I don't think the left is as frightened as much as the right is. The right is the one writing shotgun articles about how good Palin really is, as if they need to be convinced. This notably didn't happen with the Biden pick because everyone, left and right agreed that it was a good clear sighted what's good for america pick; the few articles mentioning issues almost all come back to the fact that the man has a mouth. Not so much for Palin. Not even the right can agree on that. Instead of running on the issues and what differentiates the two potential administrations, ALL of the editorials and blog posts coming out from right field are discussing Palin's life story. It isn't relevant and is a major major distraction.

Well some of us would call that the media bias rather than some universal sentiment about Biden. The size of the number of constituents they represent is roughly the same yet only Palin has had to endure the small town/hick claims. There are no/not many "Delaware, who gives a shit about small time Delaware and why would Obama make a pick from a state that is already in the bag for him, gives him only 3 delegates, and doesn't improve his standing with any expanded base of voters" because the media doesn't desire to slap him down. Biden, old, broke, more of the same, never gained traction with voters outside of Delaware ever, is long winded, etc. Those articles don't seem to be getting written.

Perhaps this is ok with you Nick, as long as your man gets elected, to hell with what is good for the country, but I am outraged at the deliberate attempts to make this election about Palin instead of about tax reform, healthcare, global warming, the economy... What Palin didn't do in Alaska is relevant, but you don't even want that discussed... Pity really, I thought John McCain wanted a heightened level of discourse, it seems he was asking too much of conservatives...

Last I checked, the views of one alone didn't determine what was "good for the country." Be outraged. I'd love an issues thread on Palin. The only ones I have seen started so far are a "WTF" thread and another asking if her kids are hers. Perhaps you will now go be outraged at those folks for a bit but I doubt it.

The idea that the only negative response to Palin consists of sexist attacks is simply, and very obviously, untrue. Embellishing a falsehood with feverish imaginings about what something that isn't happening indicates about people that don't exist is a waste of everyone's time, to be charitable.

Anyone obliged to argue from such transparently dishonest position doesn't have a serious case to make.

There's really nothing else worth saying about this. Good night.

Good night. I'm glad to know I imagined all those words and links I added in the original post.

It is so good it deserves replaying everywhere: The Republican take on the gender card:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

The full episode is chock full of examples of similar quality.

After Democrats lose this presidential election, I wonder if they will realize that the Daily Show and Colbert Report aren't real news?

Finally, yes the retractions are starting to roll in. (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/alaska-party-official-says-palin-was-not-a-member/)

Some more personal crap instead of issues that we can now write off... (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTExYmYyYmQwMjFhNzU1YTE1MmQ3N2E1MmQ1OTI2OTI=)

No, Sarah Palin didn’t support Pat Buchanan in the 1999-2000 campaign; she was an official on the campaign of Republican presidential contender Steve Forbes.

No, her eldest son Track (who is deploying to Iraq this week) didn’t join the National Guard because he was a drug addict.

No, her daughters Willow and Piper aren’t named after witches on TV.

No, she’s not anti-Semitic. In fact, she has an Israeli flag in her office, and quietly turned up for services at a newly opened Wasilla synagogue to pay her respects.

No, she didn’t cut funding for unwed mothers, but increased it by 354 percent (and no, the Washington Post doesn’t appear to have corrected its story about this despite being asked to do so).

Finally some more examples of the witchhunt/sexism.

ersonally, I don’t find it funny when New York magazine runs a headline “Levi Johnston and Fat Girlfriend Arrive in St. Paul.” Or when the Washington Post’s online magazine, Slate, launches a “Name Bristol Palin’s Baby” contest.

Richard Cohen, leading columnist at the Washington Post thought it was acceptable (even amusing) to compare Sarah Palin to a horse, and so, judging by many of their online comments, did his readers. I don’t want to even begin imagining the outcry if the Washington Post had instead compared Barack Obama — an actual political candidate — to an animal.

I’m someone who shares the Left’s purported views on equal rights, and essentially agrees with them on issues such as abortion, gays, and gun control (though firmly disagreeing with them on bigger issues such as the economy, foreign policy, and helping spread democracy abroad). But it is precisely the kind of McCarthyite-style witchhunt we have witnessed in the past week against the Palins by the Left’s phony feminists and snooty media establishment that makes me and many others I know stay well clear of the Left.

Bergermeister

09-08-2008, 10:10 AM

The video I linked to showed comments from:

Karl Rove

Bill O'Reilly

Dick Morris

Nancy Pfotenhauer (an important member of McCain's staff)

As far as the gender card is concerned, the Republicans have nothing, period, because they have already canceled themselves out. These four are absolutely ridiculous.

The Daily Show only supplied the video.

hardeeharhar

09-08-2008, 10:18 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,6802141.story

And some math:

Before conventions:
McCain 44
Obama 45

After Dem:
McCain 43
Obama 49

After Repub:
McCain 47
Obama 46

As compared to pre-convention percentages:
Obama "Bump": 4 points up (McCain 1 point down): 5 points
McCain "Bump": 3 points up (Obama 1 point up): 2 points

oops... math seems to say McCain got a smaller bump than Obama when using the statistically appropriate pre-convention numbers...

Even when using the post-DNC numbers, McCain's bump is 4 points up (Obama 3 points down), 7 points... Neither of these bumps are very large, and they are within error of each other...

Not that I doubt the poll itself, but the Gallup poll that is heavily biasing these numbers shows a 50-46 split in registered voters and a 54-44 split in likely voters. This massive change seems a bit, well, strange...

@_@ Artman

09-08-2008, 10:59 AM

Bergermeister

09-08-2008, 11:06 AM

Just a normal bounce.

hardeeharhar

09-08-2008, 11:11 AM

It is quite amusing at the lies the right wing pundits are spreading in their recent editorials. It seems that the democrats have crossed lines that no one even approached -- but I guess when you have a deceitful meme that works go with it.

Flounder

09-08-2008, 11:17 AM

By the way, Gallup daily tracking poll (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Election%2B2008.aspx), while a neat indicator, has no bearing on anything. The U.S. President is not elected by popular vote.

You want a good indicate of what will happen, take a peek here (http://electoral-vote.com.).*

* Having a hard time connecting right now. But bookmark it.

This one too...

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3082/2837147206_9a773833cf_o.png

I think his model is still mostly reflecting Obama bounce I think (since conventions being on top of each other like this election is unique, he decided to take that adjustment out of the model because he thought it was too much guesswork). It'll probably be closer to 50/50 (under 60% at any rate) by the end of the week.

@_@ Artman

09-08-2008, 12:19 PM

The only thing that concerns me are the voter purging and caging going on within the Republicans. They did it in 2000, 2004 and more than likely in 2008.

According to many election observers, voter caging is a controversial political tactic that typically targets minority voters to directly disenfranchise them or suppress their vote by intimidation. Republican officials, on the other hand, maintain that voter caging is part of what they describe as “ballot security” measures necessary to combat voter fraud.

Greg Palast, Author of Armed Madhouse, on How Rove May Have Already Stolen the 2008 Election (http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/061?id=123)

Caging Democracy (http://www.projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/Publications/Caging_Democracy_Report.pdf) (PDF) http://www.projectvote.org/

Stealing America Documentary trailer (http://www.stealingamericathemovie.org/).

This should be on the front page of every newspaper in America.

NOFEER

09-08-2008, 12:41 PM

WHAT A GREAT JOB YOU DID.....THANK YOU THANK YOU

liberals, democrats are in a panic, how dare someone else spearhead "liberal" ideals, gee wiz, it took a conservative to show what honesty is, liberals are all about "good intentions"
"feel good politics" obama isn't for change its for old school democratic positions....platitude, style not substance

i love this part of the above...

"McCain chose the future. He chose the new and the different. Those who claim to want different showed with their scorn and disdain that they want the same old thing and they used the same old sexist, misogynistic arguments to slap at and attempt to define the true change in this campaign. That first decision really did reveal a lot about each man."

THE PANIC WILL CONTINUE, women see this as an attack, and the "watch dog" media are just "liberal attack dogs" how dare sarah be so strong, and it came without the liberals, media etc. this election now has substance

OH and about hilliary, her silence speaks loudly....she and bill were looking for a end run way of sabotaging obama, well sarah is the way.....obama loses, hilliary wins the "i told you so sweepstakes"
the clintons are lauging there ars off.....
maybe hilliary will wear more stylish clothes, and show some clevage....(yech)

8-):lol::lol::lol::wow:

Flounder

09-08-2008, 01:13 PM

I somehow find it hard to believe the honesty of these arguments from the right-wing media sources quoted thus far.

;)

So I take it omissions now qualify as personal attacks?

You didn't appropriately identify the objects to which you directed your verbs. No soup for you!

@_@ Artman

09-08-2008, 01:34 PM

Hey, here's a great new interview with Sarah Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3__GiVdeheA). ;)

jamac

09-08-2008, 03:35 PM

Hey, here's a great new interview with Sarah Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3__GiVdeheA). ;)

AND the latest:
Sarah just killed a moose with her bare vagina.
McCain's marbles were located at the Hanoi Hilton!

Outsider

09-08-2008, 04:42 PM

Don't hate the sinner, hate the sinner's supporters (http://johnmckay.blogspot.com/2008/09/praying-for-mccains-death.html).

addabox

09-08-2008, 06:32 PM

Fellowship

09-09-2008, 02:08 PM

Palin was gov of the state of Alaska.

The Dallas / Fort Worth metroplex where I live has more than 10 times the population of the entire state of Alaska.

DFW metro area has more than 6 million

State of Alaska has some 600,000 people.

And if something were to happen to McCain she would assume the role of the most powerful person in the world?

I don't care if she is a good conservative or a good liberal or other... I just don't see a whole lot of experience here.

Fellows

trumptman

09-09-2008, 06:24 PM

Boston Herald (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1117752)

Please. Palin may be able to take down a rabid moose at 100 yards with a hockey puck, but she isn’t killing the Obama campaign.

To paraphrase James Carville, “It’s the media, stupid.”

The national media are dominated by enthusiastic Obama supporters desperate to see Obama the Enlightened win the White House, heal our souls, reset our thermostats and shut down the Fox News Channel.

And that’s precisely how their coverage of Palin comes across: desperate.

The media has thrown every imaginable charge at Palin, from banning books to cheating her way to the much-coveted title of Miss Wasilla. Along the way, media outlets like The New York Times [NYT], MSNBC and The Boston Globe-Democrat have gotten story after story just plain wrong.

Palin does not support teaching creationism in science class.

She didn’t fire the Wasilla librarian for not banning books that Palin didn’t like.

As governor she signed budget increases - not cuts - for programs targeting teen pregnancy and special-needs children.

And on and on - so many false and silly stories that entire Web sites have been established just to correct them.

And yet the misreporting continues.

That’s bad for Obama because these errors and rumors make it tougher for his campaign to take on the legitimate issues of ideology and experience. It’s hard to make charges about Palin’s tax policy as a mayor stick when cable talk show kooks are screaming about rumors she killed and ate an Inuit as part of a radical Pentecostal religious ceremony.

The media bias, it is so strong it is even crowding out Obama's message and thus hurting his campaign.

What are we going to do when the media surveys that look for bias come out in a month or two and note that Obama is losing the media coverage minutes not to John McCain but to Bristol Palin and the Wasilla Gossipy Letters Writers Group?

Bergermeister

09-10-2008, 03:45 AM

trumptman

09-10-2008, 08:04 AM

I think his model is still mostly reflecting Obama bounce I think (since conventions being on top of each other like this election is unique, he decided to take that adjustment out of the model because he thought it was too much guesswork). It'll probably be closer to 50/50 (under 60% at any rate) by the end of the week.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/2844320942_60d3de010e_o.png

Flounder gets a cookie.

trumptman

09-10-2008, 08:07 AM

trumptman

09-10-2008, 08:09 AM

Misreporting is a term best left to describe Republican tactics.

---

Who thinks the upcoming interview will probably be pretty easy on her? Maybe because somebody is sexist and doesn't think she can take it? Oops. It's the McCain campaign that is hiding her away.

I agree. Republicans lie because the haven't called Palin a bitch, whore, dog, pig, cleavage showing slutbag yet. Thank goodness we have the Democratic media to do that.

trumptman

09-10-2008, 08:28 AM

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 09:09 AM

PTA Mom depressed. (http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/the-rantings-of-a-pta-mom/index.html)

Turns out Sarah Palin sends her kids to public school. Biden and Obama (and McCain), not so much.

Amazingly, almost all the comments to that article are rational, mature and supporting of the Obama's decision. And also shed a lot more light as to why.

That's what it all comes down to. You and the writer make way too much of it I think.

We can also see what Iditarod Elementary has done with Palin's kids future too. A future with a lot of babies I guess. But Alaska only has 600,000 people. They need to pop some more out.

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 09:26 AM

trumptman

09-10-2008, 09:57 AM

Oh yeah, and I'm still waiting for someone, anyone here to list why Ms. Palin is a qualified candidate for Vice President, much less President God's forbid.

Still waiting..........................................h ttp://planetsmilies.net/kaos-not-tagged-smiley-5610.gif

The lists have been put out but have been dismissed. People aren't going to repeat themselves. First item, Governor of Alaska with 80-90% approval rating... Alaska... too small, not served long enough, too oil dependent, really didn't cut enough even when everyone else doesn't cut at all, etc. She lobbied for money for her state and served it (condescending tone.) Alaska sucks. She gave people in the state money. Etc. She did sell the jet but not on Ebay. She supported that road and then when the specifics came out withdrew the support but still kept the money and spent it on other highways and roads. (Because spending money appropriately is bad)

That is the first item on the list. Why continue when every item will be dismissed and then the filler comes in with McSame, pigs, she should show some cleavage, here is a picture of sad old man, here is a picture of pig, here is some family crap. Here is a picture of Palin with a Bush face, etc.

No one needs to jump through a hoop for you.

jimmac

09-10-2008, 10:01 AM

The lists have been put out but have been dismissed. People aren't going to repeat themselves. First item, Governor of Alaska with 80-90% approval rating... Alaska... too small, not served long enough, too oil dependent, really didn't cut enough even when everyone else doesn't cut at all, etc. She lobbied for money for her state and served it (condescending tone.) Alaska sucks. She gave people in the state money. Etc. She did sell the jet but not on Ebay. She supported that road and then when the specifics came out withdrew the support but still kept the money and spent it on other highways and roads. (Because spending money appropriately is bad)

That is the first item on the list. Why continue when every item will be dismissed and then the filler comes in with McSame, pigs, she should show some cleavage, here is a picture of sad old man, here is a picture of pig, here is some family crap. Here is a picture of Palin with a Bush face, etc.

No one needs to jump through a hoop for you.

It's not him you have to worry about. It's the voters. And right now her qualifications are a bit limp.

trumptman

09-10-2008, 10:03 AM

It's not him you have to worry about. It's the voters. And right now her qualifications are a bit limp.

Yeah. McCain is totally dumping at the polls due to Palin. Voters are deserting him due to that pick. I mean he is only plus 2.4% right now. I can totally see how the data supports that contention.

hardeeharhar

09-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Yeah. McCain is totally dumping at the polls due to Palin. Voters are deserting him due to that pick. I mean he is only plus 2.4% right now. I can totally see how the data supports that contention.

No, Nick. I guess you don't know what jimmac means by qualifications...

Ask yourself seriously if Palin is ready to assume the office of the presidency. Ask yourself if the narrative, effective though it may be, of her life is accurate. Ask yourself if she really is an agent of change in the republican party (and I don't mean just Alaska)...

Bergermeister

09-10-2008, 11:21 AM

I agree. Republicans lie because the haven't called Palin a bitch, whore, dog, pig, cleavage showing slutbag yet. Thank goodness we have the Democratic media to do that.

She called herself a dog: remember the joke about the pit bull?

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 11:22 AM

Why continue when every item will be dismissed and then the filler comes in with McSame, pigs, she should show some cleavage, here is a picture of sad old man, here is a picture of pig, here is some family crap. Here is a picture of Palin with a Bush face, etc.

No one needs to jump through a hoop for you.

http://www.cgspc.org/images/Magic%20through%20hoop.jpg

Hoops? like the ones you (and the media) have constructed here for us to leap through as far as Obama's qualifications (or lack of) for the last 19 months?

Yes, we are all puppies for the manipulators of truth and lies. How many hoops will we have to go through until we're satisfied? Until we get the truth?

Wake up puppies! :rolleyes:

jamac

09-10-2008, 11:40 AM

No, Nick. I guess you don't know what jimmac means by qualifications...

Ask yourself seriously if Palin is ready to assume the office of the presidency. Ask yourself if the narrative, effective though it may be, of her life is accurate. Ask yourself if she really is an agent of change in the republican party (and I don't mean just Alaska)...

Wolve killing is absolutely Disgusting!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T85cOGc8L0&feature=bzb302)

Killing gray wolves from airplanes and helicopters is great for this nation! It makes US citizens surely look extremely intelligent everywhere in the world where people enjoy killing.

Palin is a disgusting freak.
To give birth to down syndrome babies is a selfish thing to do. You know you are damming a person to a short life span (28 years). A sick body and mind as well as a life void of much experience. Yes, they smile and seem happy (ALL THE TIME) come age 13 their bodies start to fail, and their mind is still at age 3. It is much like giving birth to a rag doll to satisfy your own skewed sense of importance or to satisfy the challenge god has given to you. What a croq. In reality you are torturing a human being out of some insane idea of "Pro Life" in this case " Pro Tortured Life".

"Repub LIE cans" have put a massive spotlight on Alaska. They were comfortably under the radar. Now the world is starting to see what's going on there:

highest incest rate.
insane policies
hatred of anything scientific
no regard for nature
secessionist movements
religious extremists
anti semitism
drill, drill, drill
oil revenue soaring (but want more)
highest taxes
earmarks for nothing
Saudi Arabia with snow and ice

WTF:???:

Jubelum

09-10-2008, 11:56 AM

To give birth to down syndrome babies is a selfish thing to do. You know you are damming a person to a short life span (28 years). A sick body and mind as well as a life void of much experience. Yes, they smile and seem happy (ALL THE TIME) come age 13 their bodies start to fail, and their mind is still at age 3. It is much like giving birth to a rag doll to satisfy your own skewed sense of importance or to satisfy the challenge god has given to you. What a croq. In reality you are torturing a human being out of some insane idea of "Pro Life" in this case " Pro Tortured Life".

This is the most disgusting thing I have seen on this board in at least a year. Congrats.

jamac

09-10-2008, 11:59 AM

This is the most disgusting thing I have seen on this board in at least a year. Congrats.

Thank you!!

franksargent

09-10-2008, 12:02 PM

http://www.sandersartstudio.com/catalog/misspiggy1.jpg
McPiggy talks through her nose

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Nate987/McPig.jpg
McPork talks through his ass

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 01:01 PM

This is the most disgusting thing I have seen on this board in at least a year. Congrats.

I have to agree. Heh. Coming from me no less.

Look, I have a nephew who's wife has had a difficult time getting pregnant. She succeeded and has a beautiful, healthy girl.

Now she is pregnant again. But this has not started well at all. She will have to stay in bed for the next 6 months. She also had testing done on the baby and one determined that the baby may have Down's Syndrome. What will she do? Have the baby. Testing in these cases could be wrong where the woman, being younger, may have a healthy baby anyway.

My own sister had to deal with staying in bed for the whole term to protect herself and the baby she had. She had a premature but healthy baby boy who lived a healthy life. Until at sixteen he was struck and killed by a drunk driver.

You are dealt with the cards you chosen or dealt with. And deal with the consequences of your decisions. But the decisions should be your own, not someone else's religious, political or dictatorial ones.

So I apologize for my late night, half asleep rant last evening. I just hope though that the choice one will make in the booth will be one where whomever they choose will deal with the consequences whether good or ill.

trumptman

09-10-2008, 01:18 PM

hardeeharhar

09-10-2008, 01:21 PM

First I don't just ask myself seriously, I presume the same of my peers. Voter preference is going to reflect the collective judgment on whether Palin is qualified or not. Jimmac contends she isn't and of course I would contend she is based off what I know. I mean I put her name out there in the VP thread month ago based off what I had read and encountered. Sure the media is hurling a bunch of crap right now, almost all of it personal and spin. I still read it. I read the corrections, the follow-ups and consider the context. (Giving money back to your constituents is now bad for example.)

However the collective judgment of Palin is going to be done by the entire electorate and so far, regardless of the spin, they like what they see. Polls are up.

Yes, but Nick, you are assuming that the electorate takes their job seriously in considering a candidate... Yet we know historically that either they are wrong, or they don't (<- I think that they don't.)

jamac

09-10-2008, 01:22 PM

You are dealt with the cards you chosen or dealt with. And deal with the consequences of your decisions. But the decisions should be your own, not someone else's religious, political or dictatorial ones.

Exactly.

My wife best friend has a down syndrome child. Her decisions to have it was entirely for religious reasons. The child is happy as can be. The family lives pretty much in isolation now.
Somehow everything is about the parents. Not about the child. The reality is always tough.

If you can prevent a debilitating genetic disease, would you do it?

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 01:26 PM

Sorry for the caps lock...it's from the source (http://www.samefacts.com/archives/campaign_2008_/2008/09/palin_v_reality.php).

REALITY: PALIN SAID SHE WOULD BEG TO DISAGREE WITH ANY CANDIDATE WHO SAID WE CAN’T DRILL OUR WAY OUT OF OUR PROBLEM

REALITY: PALIN WAS FOR THE BRIDGE TO NOWHERE BEFORE SHE WAS AGAINST IT.

REALITY: PALIN ONLY ANNOUNCED OPPOSITION TO ONE “BRIDGE TO NOWHERE,” STILL SUPPORTS THE OTHER ONE

REALITY: PALIN OPPOSED CRUCIAL EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE AND SENIORS FUNDING

REALITY: UNDER PALIN, WASILLA GOVERNMENT SPENDING & DEBT SKYROCKETED.

REALITY: PALIN HAS A LT. GOVERNOR WHO IS A FORMER OIL LOBBYIST, HIRED WASILLA’S FIRST FEDERAL LOBBYIST (A FORMER STEVENS STAFFER) & HAD THE SUPPORT OF ENTRENCHED ALASKA POLITICIANS DURING HER 2006 RACE.

REALITY: PALIN SIGNED WEAK ETHICS REFORM BILL & HAS HAD NUMEROUS ETHICAL FLAPS OF HER OWN.

REALITY: ALASKA HAS REQUESTED $589 MILLION IN PORK SINCE PALIN TOOK OFFICE & AS MAYOR, SHE HIRED WASILLA’S FIRST FEDERAL LOBBYIST TO SECURE EARMARKS FOR THE TOWN.

REALITY: PALIN UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR ABUSE OF POWER.

REALITY: PALIN SUPPORTED EXPORTING NATURAL GAS WHILE ALASKA BUSINESSES CLOSED BECAUSE OF SHORTAGES

REALITY: PALIN IS CLOSE TO THE OIL INDUSTRY

REALITY: PALIN CUT FUNDING FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY

REALITY: PALIN HAS REPEATEDLY SUPPORTED TAX INCREASES

REALITY: PALIN COUNTED MCCAIN OUT TWICE

REALITY: OBAMA PASSED THE MOST SWEEPING REFORMS SINCE WATERGATE IN BOTH THE ILLINOIS AND US SENATES, AMONG OTHER ACCOMPLISHMENTS

REALITY: Obama has expressed support for a bipartisan compromise that would cut tax breaks for oil companies, invest in alternative energies, and allow for limited new offshore drilling

CBS had a great fact check list too. But it disappeared...here is the same article posted on another site (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014545.php).

Bergermeister

09-10-2008, 02:35 PM

The title says it all:

McCain and Palin castigate the earmarks she seeks

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iE2JCSH5p9r2GBkQWS9TWAMzmuvQD9340GO00

trumptman

09-10-2008, 03:42 PM

I drank teh crazy juice. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0908/SC_Dem_chair_Palin_primary_qualification_is_she_ha snt_had_an_abortion_.html?showall)

Apparently evil Republicans have resorted to kidnapping Democratic chairpersons, drugging them, and then turning them loose in front of a microphone to say some crazy ass shit.

South Carolina Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler sharply attacked Sarah Palin today, saying John McCain had chosen a running mate " whose primary qualification seems to be that she hasn’t had an abortion.”
Palin is an opponent of abortion rights and gave birth to her fifth child, Trig, earlier this year after finding out during her pregnancy that the baby had Down syndrome.

Fowler told my colleague Alex Burns in an interview that the selection of an opponent of abortion rights would not boost McCain among many women.

“Among Democratic women and even among independent women, I don’t think it helped him,” she said.

Told of McCain's boost in the new ABC/Washington Post among white women following the Palin pick, Fowler said: "Just anecdotally, I believe that those white women are Republican women anyway."

I'll have some of whatever she is having. Apparently it is some good stuff.

SDW2001

09-10-2008, 03:43 PM

This is the most disgusting thing I have seen on this board in at least a year. Congrats.

No, this is.

S.C. Dem chair: Palin primary qualification is she hasn't had an abortion

South Carolina Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler sharply attacked Sarah Palin today, saying John McCain had chosen a running mate " whose primary qualification seems to be that she hasn’t had an abortion.”

Bergermeister

09-10-2008, 04:11 PM

We need a cookie smiley...

Jubelum

09-10-2008, 04:18 PM

Can I get a goddamn cookie for this post?

Though you are wrong about every single thing every single time you post, here's a cookie. ;)
You did very good work in this post.

(really... good work... some interesting reading there... )

@_@ Artman

09-10-2008, 04:21 PM

What Fowler said is absolutely true.

Can I get a goddamn cookie for this post?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g255/artman46/kaneclapz.gif

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/super_mario_cookie.jpg

trumptman

09-10-2008, 05:48 PM

What Fowler said is absolutely true.

Palin's primary appeal as a VP pick is that she energizes the Republican base. Her conservative life-decisions obviously play into that appeal. And I have proof that is does:

Can I get a goddamn cookie for this post?

No cookie for you!8-) While your statement is true. Your statement is not what Fowler said. There are plenty of Republicans that have the exact same position as Palin. The only thing that not having had an abortion does is make it impossible for Democrats to attack Palin with their typical "intent" argument since the reality is alive and breathing in one instance and will be soon enough in another.

You know that argument.

Republicans are pro-life, until it is their kid. They'll drive them down there in a second. Wait until it is a Republican that was cheating, it is will be abortion time. Let that baby be deformed or a burden and those Republicans will be the most pro-choice person in the room. Hahahaha ... not.

Sure these attacks are nothing more than dust in the air, much like the false cries of racism through this entire campaign so far.

So the position doesn't make her qualified, but it does make her unassailable on the issue which is exactly what your quotes note. When the Democrats pull out the intent claims, the issue has already moved beyond intent here and we know the outcome. No intentions can be used for attacks.

hardeeharhar

09-10-2008, 06:02 PM

No cookie for you!8-) While your statement is true. Your statement is not what Fowler said. There are plenty of Republicans that have the exact same position as Palin. The only thing that not having had an abortion does is make it impossible for Democrats to attack Palin with their typical "intent" argument since the reality is alive and breathing in one instance and will be soon enough in another.

You know that argument.

Republicans are pro-life, until it is their kid. They'll drive them down there in a second. Wait until it is a Republican that was cheating, it is will be abortion time. Let that baby be deformed or a burden and those Republicans will be the most pro-choice person in the room. Hahahaha ... not.

Sure these attacks are nothing more than dust in the air, much like the false cries of racism through this entire campaign so far.

So the position doesn't make her qualified, but it does make her unassailable on the issue which is exactly what your quotes note. When the Democrats pull out the intent claims, the issue has already moved beyond intent here and we know the outcome. No intentions can be used for attacks.
Whoa, did anyone else catch the spin on this one?

You know that argument.

Republicans are pro-life, until it is their kid. They'll drive them down there in a second. Wait until it is a Republican that was cheating, it is will be abortion time. Let that baby be deformed or a burden and those Republicans will be the most pro-choice person in the room. Hahahaha ... not.

No liberal I know has made those arguments, which suggests to me that you are just blowing up your own dust...

And Nick, be honest here, you are the one arguing about future arguments and claiming to know the Democrat's intent...

Trumptman meet Trumptman.

SDW2001

09-10-2008, 06:10 PM

No cookie for you!8-) While your statement is true. Your statement is not what Fowler said.

Stop there. EXACTLY. This wasn't about the reasons people support her. It was said this was her primary qualification for the job. Being the Governor of Alaska apparently plays second fiddle.

As an aside, how many women refuse to vote for Palin on the same grounds? Hmmm. I guess that means Joe Biden's primary qualification is that he's pro-choice.

groverat

09-10-2008, 06:13 PM

South Carolina Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler sharply attacked Sarah Palin today, saying John McCain had chosen a running mate " whose primary qualification seems to be that she hasn’t had an abortion.”

Fowler isn't that far off.

Palin isn't beloved because of the tremendous wisdom she has shown re: national and international policy or exemplary executive leadership.

Jubelum

09-10-2008, 06:16 PM

isn't beloved because of the tremendous wisdom (s)he has shown re: national and international policy or exemplary executive leadership.

The same might be said of one Barack Obama, yes?

<door meets nose once again>

groverat

09-10-2008, 06:43 PM

Obama has shown tremendous wisdom on national and international issues.

I don't think he has much/any leadership experience worth noting, but he's got over a decade of documented and traceable political philosophy and policy on national and international issues.

I am voting for Barack Obama.
You are voting against him.

Think about what that means.

trumptman

09-10-2008, 07:03 PM

It means that empty unsupported statements about an empty unsupported candidate are not persuasive and have not persuaded me.

I am voting for John McCain.
You are voting against him.

Think about what that means and I mean think about what that means outside the realm of trying to just type authoritatively.

groverat

09-10-2008, 07:06 PM

I guess I'm not on ignore anymore. :lol:

I was an Obama supporter all throughout the primaries. I've been an Obama supporter for well over a year now.

What about you and John?

trumptman

09-10-2008, 07:29 PM

I guess I'm not on ignore anymore. :lol:

I was an Obama supporter all throughout the primaries. I've been an Obama supporter for well over a year now.

What about you and John?

Well if the ignore wouldn't show what you wrote when quoted in other people's replies then I would be fine.

Dammit now I'm doing it too.:mad::lol:

John McCain earned my vote the day he announced Sarah Palin as his VP.

To me this actually means more since I actually demanded actions be met before giving over my support and vote versus speaking about platitudes of CHANGE and HOPE. McCain really has impressed me over the course of this run is that his campaign organization has sharpened and become more organized. They clearly get more return on their campaign dollars because they are at a money disadvantage but are driving the campaign narrative. The guy has shown he can take weaknesses and turn them into strengths, that he can counter-punch well on the politics. I've really liked how his energy policy has shaped up and while I am hoping for more firm action on the budget front, I'll buy the platitudes there for a while over no claims of balance budgeting at all from the Obama side. McCain also hasn't flinched from certain problematic or unpopular issues like continuing the war in Iraq.

However McCain deserves some respect, even begrudgingly for what he has pulled off. I mean Bush has low approval. The Republicans are almost double digit generic underdogs, McCain has less money, low charisma, he can't lift his arms high enough to even hug properly, he is the oldest guy running and still manages to stay in the game and might even win it. It has to say something about your leadership when you manage to stay even with so many structural, position and even straight up physical disadvantages.

Obama has had just as many tired flubs as McCain. (New Pennsylvania is the name of one of the 57 states apparently.) Obama appears to really be wearing down as is Biden. Every interview with Biden especially the guy looks tired and beat. He is always mumbling. Obama is literally grayer every time I see him with regard to hair. McCain is 72 years old and his holding his ground with regard to energy, schedule, speaking, you name it. The guy is smart no matter what the spin wants to claim. He had to earn my vote, I wouldn't just give it and he did. He won me over even when I was profoundly skeptical. There was some post by me earlier this year where I noted I might just stay home. Now I won't. Hell, now I'm ready to donate.

Bergermeister

09-10-2008, 07:33 PM

Even if I were leaning towards McCain, his actions (and those of his campaign and thereby him) of this week would have totally blown it. He has more than proven to me that he is not worthy of public office.

groverat

09-10-2008, 07:49 PM

John McCain earned my vote the day he announced Sarah Palin as his VP.

Really?... hmm

How long had you been a proponent of Sarah Palin before then?

Am I supposed to believe that you weren't going to vote for McCain until then?

Jubelum

09-11-2008, 01:43 AM

Think about what that means.

Hang on. <takes swig of soy milk, assumes yoga position, Ommmmm Ommmmmmm>

My goodness, it's like this thread needs it own soundtrack. I'd throw in the kettle drums Spaceballs style with your statement above.

I've thought through it quite well, thanks. I've seen what I can expect from BHO. And 85% of it is things that I would oppose very strongly. You want me to have a weighty, spiritual awakening over opposing an ideological enemy, and the manner in which I do the same? Give me a break here. It's not rocket surgery to see that the man is a socialist, and it's very simple to also see that I abhor most of the things that he stands for, both in spirit and execution. There's no dramatic moment to be had here. Sorry.

FormerLurker

09-11-2008, 03:57 AM

Hang on. <takes swig of soy milk, assumes yoga position, Ommmmm Ommmmmmm>

This is a blatant Personal Attack Ad-Hom No-No against all posters here who drink soy milk, and/or practice yoga, and/or chant "Ommmmm Ommmmmmm".

You have been Reported... and I shall expect your immediate banning, and/or apology to those whom you have personally attacked.

Jubelum

09-11-2008, 10:20 AM

This is a blatant Personal Attack Ad-Hom No-No against all posters here who drink soy milk, and/or practice yoga, and/or chant "Ommmmm Ommmmmmm".

You have been Reported... and I shall expect your immediate banning, and/or apology to those whom you have personally attacked.

Would you like pictures of my back after the hours of self-flagellation?

No matter what you do, don't tell the guys down here at the Arlen Gun Club that I have soy milk in the fridge, or that I know yoga and pilates positions. Please.

Bergermeister

09-11-2008, 01:12 PM

About the upcoming Palin interview:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/the_right_and_wrong_questions.html?hpid=opinionsbo x1

SpamSandwich

09-11-2008, 02:12 PM

About the upcoming Palin interview:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/the_right_and_wrong_questions.html?hpid=opinionsbo x1

So everyone is expecting nothing but a puff piece from Gibson, eh?

Bergermeister

09-11-2008, 02:18 PM

Read somewhere that Gibson had to send a list of questions... so she could prepare her answers I guess.

I expect nothing from the interview, but hope that it will actually pertain to the office being sought.

Lower your expectations to the point at which they are already met and thus you will be happy... to paraphrase a comic strip character.

If these were elections in another country, how would the US respond?

That's a difficult question because a new low is being set.

@_@ Artman

09-11-2008, 02:22 PM

That's a difficult question because a new low is being set.

No, it's like 2000 all over again (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/09/11/biden_mccain_is_reprising_attacks_of_2000/).

Senator Joe Biden said yesterday that Republican John McCain is aiming the same kind of attacks at Democratic nominee Barack Obama that Biden had defended McCain against during the 2000 presidential race.

"It's my greatest disappointment," Biden told about 300 supporters at a fund-raiser in Boston.

Biden recalled how then-Texas governor George W. Bush and his supporters in 2000 questioned McCain's commitment to his fellow Vietnam veterans and even suggested the Arizona senator was the father of an illegitimate child.

Biden said he called McCain during the campaign and said, "I'll go anywhere in the country and I'll stand before press conferences and I'll testify to your character. You just tell me."

"What really disappoints me is the very tactics used against him, they're trying to use against Barack Obama now," Biden said. "It's literally saddening. I didn't expect it, I didn't expect it. But I guess I should learn to expect everything."

But it's been so long and our culture is so different now, what happened in 2000 might as well have happened in 1910 for as much as Americans give a crap.

FormerLurker

09-11-2008, 02:22 PM

Would you like pictures of my back after the hours of self-flagellation?

No matter what you do, don't tell the guys down here at the Arlen Gun Club that I have soy milk in the fridge, or that I know yoga and pilates positions. Please.

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/tombstone/839/king/King_aintright.wav

MarcUK

09-11-2008, 02:24 PM

I guess I'm not on ignore anymore. :lol:

I was an Obama supporter all throughout the primaries. I've been an Obama supporter for well over a year now.

What about you and John?

well, he would have us believe he didn't jump on John waggon until the Creationist Slut Pig became his running mate....

If you believe that....is that a flying creationist slut pig up there?

Bergermeister

09-11-2008, 03:43 PM

A GOP senator weighs in on Palin: a "cocky wacko"

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/11/former-gop-senator-calls-palin-a-‘cocky-wacko’/

addabox

09-11-2008, 03:49 PM

A GOP senator weighs in on Palin: a "cocky wacko"

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/11/former-gop-senator-calls-palin-a-‘cocky-wacko’/

That phrase contains "cock." Lincoln Chafee has in effect attempted to rape Sarah Palin. Could someone get on that, please?

Bergermeister

09-11-2008, 03:50 PM

That phrase contains "cock." Lincoln Chafee has in effect attempted to rape Sarah Palin. Could someone get on that, please?

An ad will be out within the hour.

We are the Borg.

Bergermeister

09-11-2008, 04:57 PM

The smilies are getting tiresome. Though he has left the Borg, his comment still stands: a cocky wacko.

---

Palin is threatening legal action to block subpoenas in Troopergate. I thought she was going to be open about the investigation... So, how does her behavior fit in with the change her campaign, er, I mean John's campaign, is running for?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080911/ap_on_el_pr/palin_troopergate;_ylt=AvMaOLR2u3TQyij8P.JEV3uyFz4 D

---

Camp McCain initially said that Palin's speech at the troop send-off would be closed to the press, something they have no power to say. They think they are gods sometimes. As she is governor, the military OK'ed the speech but have demanded that it not be political. Must have needed a re-write as she has been repeating the same lines for the past week.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080911/ap_on_el_pr/2008_race_rundown_34;_ylt=AqV8VCNnPYy12X0.5Mfc80Jh 24cA

---

According to the former governor of Alaska, when Palin was mayor of Wasilla, rape victims had to pay for their own forensic tests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/11/post_156_n_125711.html

Main link:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/52266.html

Reported ADN

SpamSandwich

09-11-2008, 09:07 PM

Not sure if you folks have already seen this... but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ALsjhDDdaA

Oh, my gawd.

hardeeharhar

09-11-2008, 09:22 PM

tonton

09-11-2008, 09:48 PM

She seems to be getting angry at the end there....

She did well enough (*smirk*)...

I am not sure she came off quite as well as a lot of people think... There have been a couple of statements online elsewhere that Gibson was unfair -- which, I can't see, but then again I am not hell bent on finding any reason to vote for HER...

Where is McCain these days? Obama won the day even without politics -- the Clinton meeting got a lot of press... certainly more than McCain's walk to ground zero...

To be fair, she was talking about a response to terrorists. It would probably be more troubling if she didn't get a little angry at the end. We're all angry about what happened at 9/11 and we're all angry that Pakistan hasn't cooperated as well as we would wish to clear out the cells hiding around the border area.

It was a softball interview.

MaxParrish

09-11-2008, 11:12 PM

groverat

09-11-2008, 11:29 PM

She has the minimal intelligence, executive ability, policy wisdom, and thick skin to be Vice President.

Minimal intelligence... sure.
Executive ability... can you back this up?
Policy wisdom... :lol: :lol: you really need to back this one up.
Thick skin... YOU SEXIST! :lol: :lol:

Gilsch

09-11-2008, 11:37 PM

not sure if you folks have already seen this... But...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3alsjhdddaa

oh, my gawd.

lmao.

And I'm only at the 4 minute mark....LMAO

Gilsch

09-11-2008, 11:43 PM

OMFG!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: OMG!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII

MaxParrish

09-11-2008, 11:52 PM

...John McCain earned my vote the day he announced Sarah Palin as his VP.
...McCain really has impressed me over the course of this run is that his campaign organization has sharpened and become more organized. ... The guy has shown he can take weaknesses and turn them into strengths, that he can counter-punch well on the politics. I've really liked how his energy policy has shaped up and while I am hoping for more firm action on the budget front, I'll buy the platitudes there for a while over no claims of balance budgeting at all from the Obama side. McCain also hasn't flinched from certain problematic or unpopular issues like continuing the war in Iraq...still manages to stay in the game and might even win it. It has to say something about your leadership when you manage to stay even with so many structural, position and even straight up physical disadvantages.

Obama has had just as many tired flubs as McCain. (New Pennsylvania is the name of one of the 57 states apparently.) Obama appears to really be wearing down as is Biden. Every interview with Biden especially the guy looks tired and beat. ... There was some post by me earlier this year where I noted I might just stay home. Now I won't. Hell, now I'm ready to donate..

Your new found enthusiasm is understandable, and it echos the feelings of many conservatives who were disgusted with the McCain nomination. However, I am not one of them.

Yes, Palin is a breath of fresh air, the race is exciting, and McCain's campaign manager (who touted Palin to McCain after McCain's blunder in sending up trial balloons on Lieberman and Ridge) has pulled a rabbit out of his hat. The ad agency his people hired is doing a bang up job with commercials on Obama's counterfeit 'celebrity' aura. And they are pounding on the POW hero mantra and National Defense as McCain's single most powerful qualification. Good for them.

But I don't measure Presidential aspirants on their campaign tactics, their ad agencies, their third choice VP selections, their speech writers, or their polling position. I measure them primarily on their policy choices, and secondarily on their ability to lead, to be an executive manager, to select the right people, and to make the right calls under pressure.

To be sure, Obama is the worst choice. However, McCain is only marginally better. On 1/2 the major issues he is unwise, he has not shown much in the way of leadership in the Senate or Republican Party (other than as a trouble maker and obstacle), he is ill tempered, stubborn, self-centered, and thoughtless. And in spite of his obsession with 'honor' I have serious doubts as to his ability to live by his overly advertised 'better than thou' character claims.

If Palin were running for President, I might be voting Republican...but she is not. Therefore I am not voting for any Presidential contender. Yes, I know that Obama is worse and that the basic argument is "Well wouldn't voting for a FDR be better than voting for Henry Wallace"? Sorry, I don't chose between the lesser of two fools and collectivists. Politics is a fools game - no more so than this year.

In the meantime...ON PALIN: I agree that it is amusing to see the Democrat's lose it on her nomination - they have over-reacted and found their every attack back firing. Frankly the rabid savaging of her by the democratic party hacks is rather telling about the personality types that run (or support) that kind of politics....VVVVERY interesting.

tonton

09-11-2008, 11:58 PM

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 12:04 AM

OMFG!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: OMG!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII

Like... such as... er, uh "nukular"

MaxParrish

09-12-2008, 12:05 AM

Minimal intelligence... sure.
Executive ability... can you back this up?

Don't you think she can manage a Radio Shack? Besides, as far as I know, she has a cohesive administration that is not marked by infighting, is popular, and is loyal. She seems to have formulated a team with a direction. Her governor's office is not rumored to be anything like that of some of the lower 48 states (e.g. Gray Davis ) nor do rumors circulate on her executive style with staff.

From what we know, she is minimally gifted to be either a Radio Shack manager or Vice President. She might be gifted beyond that, that is uncertain.

Policy wisdom... :lol: :lol: you really need to back this one up. She is more conservative than McCain - that is very wise.

Thick skin... YOU SEXIST! :lol: :lol: Being thick skinned is an important element in political office - not whining all the time, not be outraged at personal comments. So far she has proven to be gracefull under fire - another positive. Obama has not always shown that talent - a negative.

MaxParrish

09-12-2008, 12:44 AM

Her "Executive Ability" is an unmitigated failure.

Raised taxes. Rolled up a huge debt. Actively sought earmarks.

How can anyone look at her work in Wasilla and call her tenure a success? And when someone does a job, then fails at that job, it doesn't count much for "experience".

Barack Obama got a fucking hell of a lot more real-world applicable knowledge from his time at Harvard and especially from his work in the Senate.

There's simply no comparison with regard to executive qualification between the two. To say there is is intellectually dishonest and deceitful.
You snarl at her executive ability as "an unmitigated failure" but provide me with a list of policy choices (which is a seperate issue), then you add another unsupported claim on her abilty that you cannot call her work as Mayor successful.

So far you have provided no evidence of her being "an unmitigated failure", ior lacking in abiity to manage. Moeover, you ignore that in her "unmitigateed failure" she became so popular she defeated both the incumbent Republican Governor and then her Democratic opponent (and has had very high popularity rating since). So just where's the beef in your complaints?

Moreover, just what prompted this irrelevant defense of Obama's qualifications? Do you see anywhere I questioned Obama's 'real world' knowledge because he obtained in the cloister of Harvard Law School or questioned his exhaustive "real world experience" of the two years in the Senate?

As your reflexive attack on Palin via a defense of Obama's credentials has been the major leitmotif of Democratic operatives and thier assorted 'me hate Republican' Axe grinders, its worth reflecting on. Really, don't you find it a bit strange that the Democratic Presidential nominee is repeatedly comparing himself the the VICE PRESIDENTIAL nominee of the Republicans? The universal cry among Obama supporters has been "Obama is more qualified than Palin" - ummmm, do they know which office each are running for? Does that pot banging not sound a little absurd when Obama is running against John McCain and his very real world experience... is that why they are trying to score by running to the wrong goalpost?

Of course that is one reason they are savaging Palin. The more important reason is that Palin has struck a nerve in the Obama campaign. Obama is no longer "the celebraty' and the 'fresh voice for change' - even if he lacks serious experience to be President. This unknown woman from Alaska is (at the moment) is popular, fresh, attractive, and articulate (with a combative reputation of trying some actual reforming) and she is elbowing aside his image - she is taking HIS corner and sales pitch. Because Obama and his supporters consider Palin a usurper of Obama's aura, they instinctually savage her on the grounds that also make their own nominee look equally superficial an dubious (e.g. his experience and authentic conncetion to everyday American life).

There's only room for one people's Messiah in this election, and Obama's folks aren't going to let this pro-life gal from Alaska out shine him. No sir.

So now we have the absurdity of the Presidential contender attacking his opponent's Vice President on who has more 'experience' - a man whose own record is paper thin in 'the real world'...a mere two years in the US Senate, mostly spent campaigning for President.

LOL...well, it keeps us amused

hardeeharhar

09-12-2008, 12:53 AM

You're right, Max. People (republicans and democrats) need to stop comparing Palin, who btw should be qualified to be president immediately as that is her job, to Obama...

tonton

09-12-2008, 12:56 AM

Before Sarah Palin enterd office, the City of Wasilla had zero debt.
When she left, each citizen owed $3,000, despite most ending up having to pay more taxes.
They got a sports complex. That is losing money. That -- OOPS -- she forgot to secure land rights to before she started the project, costing the city $1.3 million and wasted time.

FAIL. UNMITIGATED. NEXT.

KOS has the truth spelled out very clearly (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/6/175447/3823/493/589385) (don't attack the source... you can't argue with the facts presented).

The argument the Republicans want to make about Palin's superior executive experience comes down to a quantitative argument: she supposedly has more years of elective executive experience compared to Obama or Biden (or McCain, if they were honest.) However, when we compare Palin's and Obama's (and McCain's) qualitative executive experience, Obama wins hands down. Palin left her small-town in relatively enormous debt after it had been debt free before her tenure. Her mismanagement is similar to the short-sighted and reckless impulsiveness that has characterized McCain's campaign (no wonder he calls her his "soulmate.") McCain's campaign has been one of boom and bust, with one management team after another, one different, contradictory message after another. Obama, on the other hand, has run one of the most organized and tightly run campaigns in modern American political history. His ground game is astounding while McCain's is pretty much non-existent.

Bergermeister

09-12-2008, 01:01 AM

I got to 1:29 (just after she said she was ready) and had to stop. She has no confidence, period. This girl will be eaten alive on the world stage.

---
Watched some more, but is arduous. If she was actually ready, why did she have to hide (and will still continue to hide) from questions? Her actions defeat her words.

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 01:04 AM

Before Sarah Palin enterd office, the City of Wasilla had zero debt.
When she left, each citizen owed $3,000, despite most ending up having to pay more taxes.
They got a sports complex. That is losing money.

FAIL. UNMITIGATED. NEXT.

OK... wow, this is low hanging fruit.

Let's see here... creating debt is evidence of failure. Cool.
Citizens having to pay more taxes is evidence of a politician's failure. Outstanding.
Buying things that do not have a good ROI is evidence of failure. Awesome.

I just cannot wait to apply these rules.

MaxParrish

09-12-2008, 01:13 AM

You're right, Max. People (republicans and democrats) need to stop comparing Palin, who btw should be qualified to be president immediately as that is her job, to Obama...

Yes your right, Obama is running for President and if he wins he will be. Palin is running to be Vice President under John McCain, and if John McCain wins she will be Vice President.

Obama needs to focus on McCains VP to compare himself to, to prove himself the better man. He needs to prove he is more qualified than her, because everyone knows he is really running against the person who IS NOT running for President, and who is a very unlikely possibility that she might be called upon to replace McCain. :lol:

While we focusing on non-peer comparisons, you think John McCain ought to be attacking Nancy Pelosi and comparing his record to hers? After all, she is right after Sarah. :wow:

Bergermeister

09-12-2008, 01:21 AM

McCain is a non-entity. Palin is the puppet the controllers on the right want.

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 01:27 AM

McCain is a non-entity. Palin is the puppet the controllers on the right want.

Controllers on the right? WTF are you talking about? How exactly does McCain become the nominee if the GOP is run by the "controllers on the right?"

Post after post after post. For a week now. Just whatever comes to mind that might make a new narrative. It's like Palin is kryptonite, or doing some strange Jedi mind trick, making normally well-reasoned people come truly unhinged.

hardeeharhar

09-12-2008, 01:46 AM

Obama needs to focus on McCains VP to compare himself to, to prove himself the better man. He needs to prove he is more qualified than her, because everyone knows he is really running against the person who IS NOT running for President, and who is a very unlikely possibility that she might be called upon to replace McCain. :lol:

I think you lost the plot here. Obama isn't focusing on or running against Palin. In fact, there have been NO ads and only off references to Palin from Obama's campaign since she was nominated. The Republicans are running Palin against Obama because that appears to be the only way they can win since they were clearly losing running McCain against him.

While we focusing on non-peer comparisons, you think John McCain ought to be attacking Nancy Pelosi and comparing his record to hers? After all, she is right after Sarah. :wow:

I don't see where Obama is attacking Palin...

tonton

09-12-2008, 02:04 AM

OK... wow, this is low hanging fruit.

Let's see here... creating debt is evidence of failure. Cool.
Citizens having to pay more taxes is evidence of a politician's failure. Outstanding.
Buying things that do not have a good ROI is evidence of failure. Awesome.

I just cannot wait to apply these rules.

Once again, you cannot see the trees for the fruit.

"Let's see here... creating debt is evidence of failure. Cool."
ABSOLUTELY.
"Citizens having to pay more taxes is evidence of a politician's failure. Outstanding."
No. I made that point because Sarah Palin's supporters (or the vast majority thereof) claim to believe this to be true, and I'm pointing out their hypocrisy... and hers.
"Buying things that do not have a good ROI is evidence of failure. Awesome."
True.
We simply differ on what constitutes a good return. I believe it doesn't have to be restricted to financial terms. That doesn't preclude the fact that something that *should* be financially manageable and wasn't managed correctly was not a good investment.

Bergermeister

09-12-2008, 02:24 AM

Currently, Palin is nothing better than a puppet. Her appearances, interaction with anybody, speeches, are all prepared for her and carefully controlled; Camp McCain has even basically said this. She is good script-reader and follower literally every appearance is the same), but she has yet to really be on her own; even with this interview you could tell where she had been prepped and where not. Until that time when she is allowed to roam independently, she is no better than a puppet. The handlers hope that by playing her right, they can dupe the average American in to voting for the ticket. For now, it seems to be working, but there is a growing criticism of the whole charade.

tonton

09-12-2008, 02:54 AM

We will know when it comes time for the debates. When is the first one? When is the first VP debate? Do you think the "handlers" will allow Sarah to debate at all if the questions are not vetted? Do you think they can find a way out of it?

MaxParrish

09-12-2008, 03:14 AM

Once again, you cannot see the trees for the fruit.

"Let's see here... creating debt is evidence of failure. Cool."
ABSOLUTELY.
"Citizens having to pay more taxes is evidence of a politician's failure. Outstanding."
No. I made that point because Sarah Palin's supporters (or the vast majority thereof) claim to believe this to be true, and I'm pointinOK... wow, this is low hanging fruit.

Let's see here... creating debt is evidence of failure. Cool.
Citizens having to pay more taxes is evidence of a politician's failure. Outstanding.
Buying things that do not have a good ROI is evidence of failure. Awesome.

I just cannot wait to apply these rules.
g out their hypocrisy... and hers.
"Buying things that do not have a good ROI is evidence of failure. Awesome."
True.
We simply differ on what constitutes a good return. I believe it doesn't have to be restricted to financial terms. That doesn't preclude the fact that something that *should* be financially manageable and wasn't managed correctly was not a good investment.

What undermines all of the contrived hair-pulling over Palin is the obsessive, dishonest, and hysterical attacks on her - the kind of thing usually reserved for the person that is actually running for the Presidency. Not even Dan Quayle (who was dense) or Thomas Eagleton (who was a severe bi-polar that was hospitalized and underwent electroshock treatments) engendered this level of fear and loathing within a few weeks of nomination. I guess one has to write it off to the new kind of politics since 2000 - constantly screaming alarmism and a love of dishonoring all truth or reality to get one's way...very sad to see it repeated.

I am quite open to the truth, and to honor it. I don't have a horse in this race. But using the KOZ as source is pointless when its SOP is character assault on behalf of the church - this time against Palin from the git go. One does not need to object to its article because of its source though - the article's own argument is (in an of itself) disingenuous, uninformed and senseless.

The first six paragraphs repeatedly states that there was no capital debt before she entered office, and repeats it in each paragraph (each time illustrating 'the debt by using percent, then per person, then total, etc.). Although I am sure they hoped to make the reader alarmed by a repetition of reformatted numbers of "the debt", all it really says is that the City chose to acquire capital debt on some capital projects. So far, ho hum.

I can't take this sort of Axe grinding seriously. As a former City budget manager and financial analyst this is typical of all cities - you want a capital project, you sell bonds and cover it with special obligation funds (raised by new taxes, government grants, etc.). Almost ALL cities have capital debt, the only news here is that this little berg did not (which may be good OR bad, depending on what capital needs are unmet). And in my experience, a city with 6.4% on capital debt spending is laughably small; having experienced City work in Oklahoma and California - no wonder this kind of carping by KOS looks like more venom tossed out for eager Palin haters.

And it is not made more convincing by repeatedly (and disingenuously) noting in each paragraph that "Palin signed the budget" or "Palin signed the ordinance". Such signatures are required regardless of whether a Mayor voted for an ordinance or a budget, or not. The City Council passes ordinances and budgets by majority vote - the Mayor having one of those votes. Signing such is meaningless - a detail the writers ignored.

Finally we learn (when they quote a critic) that "(he) has been particularly critical of a $ 5.5 million road and sewer bond passed last year by voters. He says the bond payments could make the city vulnerable should the economy turn down. Palin notes residents approved the bond, which she says was needed for critical road work." [Anchorage Daily News (Alaska), 10/5/99]"

Again, this is scandal? Not only did the City Council see a need for roads and sewers, and a recreation complex, but so did the voters. So the community willingly chose to raise taxes (a paltry 1/2 cent on a minor 2 cent sales tax base) and the Obama axe grinders think they have discovered a female Nero burning Rome to build an imperial palaces and provide bread and circuses on the backs of the oppressed citizens of Wasila? ...gasp!

The only interesting part of this is the KOS claim that "Palin mismanaged the land deal" because she did not sign all the papers. However, the details supporting that claim are left out; i.e. in my experience you sign the paper's the City Attorney has you sign...its routinely done. And the City Attorney, in turn, usually gets those papers from the City staff and perhaps their contract advisors. Mayors are clueless as to what is needed for legal reasons - that is not his/her job. Moreover, your City Manager, not your Mayor, supervises the department heads who assign City staff to manage the project's budget, and authorize the expenditures.

So that was another accusation without supporting evidence.

Finally, the law suits and claims are routine in City business. Very often it is screw ups by City staff and bad internal processes, other times it is merely another vendor or contractor looking to intimidate the City into paying out of court on a dubious claim (so as to avoid publicity). And yet other times it is because the private individual is far more adept at tactical moves and in rent seeking. About the only thing I am sure of in my 20 years of City work is that the Mayor, from the best to the worst, is never in a position to cause these kind of screwups.

This is where Mayor's do matter:

- Cutting Ribbons
- Pushing for Specific programs or capital projects
- Telling City Councilmen when they are out of order at meetings
- Brokering deals with fellow council persons on votes
- making speech's at City sponsored events.
- bitching about staff (or supporting staff)
- collecting campaign funds
- attending useless conferences and state meetings
- lobbying the State and Feds for more money and grants.

So if you find a source that says that she pushed for objectives that people did not want, or duties she was shitty at, or that no conservative should support even on a local level - then you may have something. I would be far more interested in what she, personally, did rather than all oblique and unwarranted inferences of "she signed this".

In the meantime, note that it is equally disingenuous for forum liberals to carp that she is not qualified because you think she is not being conservative (she supported capital projects and raised taxes and sought grant (pork) money). That may be true, but do you think her ACTUAL opponent (Biden) or self assigned oppenent (Obama) is opposed to increasing taxes and new expenditures and giving grants????

And finally, that Obama is more qualified in 'qualitative' executive experience is dubious. Every "community organizer" I met in my work was a supplicant to the City council asking for grants for community groups and demanding a forum to lobby for special favors for racial and special interest groups. In other words, salesmen and talkers.

So ya, get serious folks. Use a modicum of skepticism when reading screeds that don't support their own claims. It's not worth our time to deconstruct...at least not repeatedly.

tonton

09-12-2008, 03:28 AM

Um... this was a "city" with 6000 residents. I think you exaggerate the extent of City government here. Again, no Vasilla Mayor before Palin had these problems.

You are aware, are you not, that different cities have VASTLY different responsibilities for Mayors, are you not?

If Sarah Palin was responsible for these things, then her failure is telling.

If, as you seem to hint, she was not entirely responsible for these things, and was good for "ribbon cutting" etc. etc. etc., then where is the executive experience!?

This is the point that is being made here. Running a failing city government, or not running it, it doesn't matter. ***She has no applicable executive experience.***

The underlying fact is, you're making excuses for her lack of experience simply because Palin is your "darling" ultra-conservative Christian right candidate who will turn this into her version of "God's Country" (like it or not).

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 03:31 AM

If, as you seem to hint, she was not entirely responsible for these things, and was good for "ribbon cutting" etc. etc. etc., then where is the executive experience!?

Pssst... she's a governor. Of a state. One of fifty executives with such a job in this nation.

The wheels...are coming... off....

tonton

09-12-2008, 03:40 AM

Pssst... she's a governor. Of a state. One of fifty executives with such a job in this nation.

The wheels...are coming... off....

Come on! You're joking, right? She's been governor for less than 2 years! Palin's "Executive experience" has always included her stint as mayor of Mayberry.

Again, Obama's experience far outweighs anything she's done as Governor in a state that has 1/5 the population of the city Obama served in the State Legislature and 1/18th the population of the State Obama served in the Senate.

And her city "experience", which is the point of all this, would be absolutely laughable if it weren't so sad.

Bergermeister

09-12-2008, 03:42 AM

Came from a town about the size of Wasilla; actually was born in a town of 130.

The best way to describe it is to say watch Doc Hollywood. Close enough.

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 03:49 AM

The underlying fact is, you're making excuses for her lack of experience simply because Palin is your "darling" ultra-conservative Christian right candidate who will turn this into her version of "God's Country" (like it or not).

As opposed to making excuses for Obama's lack of experience because he is your "darling" socialist candidate who will turn this into his version of an Orwellian dystopia, like it or not?

Tonton, you've always been very very up front with me when you thought it was time for me to take a break and wipe the angry spittle from my LCD. I may have to return the favor sometime soon. I'm really concerned about what Palin's introduction has done to a few around here. I'm missing old version of my liberal adversaries, the ones that have been replaced with these aliens who have not yet reached apogee since McCain's pick. It's a little whacky around here. Statements I never thought I'd hear and one liberal argument after another blowing up in their faces. It's time to Leave Sarah Alone. Not for us on the right... but for the sake of what is left of your party. Obama's lead- *poof* - gone. Congressional races nationwide going from 12% Dem advantage to a little over 3%... and falling. McCain grabbing white women's votes in the biggest poll-internal swing that anyone can remember. The part that is so great is that it is not just the pick that is driving people... it's the Obama/Biden/DNC response to the pick. The gift that just keeps on giving, day after day.

I mean, if this person is so unqualified, so terrible, so all-the-things-we've-heard... why worry? The asymmetrical response to such a trailer-park-living-gun-and-Bible-totin' hockey mommy-come-lately is truly lending her loads of legitimacy. Mostly due to the nature of the attacks, not the real substance. The GOP base can smell the fear, and the left is walking right into McCains rope-a-dope. Take a hint from me... let Palin go... McCain is your primary, proceed to target.

Jubelum

09-12-2008, 03:50 AM

Come on! You're joking, right?

You asked "where's the executive experience." I answered you... and pointed out that you were, shall we just kindly say, "forgetting" or "omitting" that she's also a governor. That's all.

tonton

09-12-2008, 03:57 AM

You asked "where's the executive experience." I answered you... and pointed out that you were, shall we just kindly say, "forgetting" or "omitting" that she's also a governor. That's all.

Okay. I'll rephrase. Where is the executive experience in her Mayorship of Wasilla (which is what I was talking about)?

Meanwhile...

Palin thinks Iraq was responsible for 9/11 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/11/AR2008091103789.html?hpid=topnews).

tonton

09-12-2008, 04:00 AM

As opposed to making excuses for Obama's lack of experience because he is your "darling" socialist candidate who will turn this into his version of an Orwellian dystopia, like it or not?

Tonton, you've always been very very up front with me when you thought it was time for me to take a break and wipe the angry spittle from my LCD. I may have to return the favor sometime soon. I'm really concerned about what Palin's introduction has done to a few around here. I'm missing old version of my liberal adversaries, the ones that have been replaced with these aliens who have not yet reached apogee since McCain's pick. It's a little whacky around here. Statements I never thought I'd hear and one liberal argument after another blowing up in their faces. It's time to Leave Sarah Alone. Not for us on the right... but for the sake of what is left of your party. Obama's lead- *poof* - gone. Congressional races nationwide going from 12% Dem advantage to a little over 3%... and falling. McCain grabbing white women's votes in the biggest poll-internal swing that anyone can remember. The part that is so great is that it is not just the pick that is driving people... it's the Obama/Biden/DNC response to the pick. The gift that just keeps on giving, day after day.

I mean, if this person is so unqualified, so terrible, so all-the-things-we've-heard... why worry? The asymmetrical response to such a trailer-park-living-gun-and-Bible-totin' hockey mommy-come-lately is truly lending her loads of legitimacy. Mostly due to the nature of the attacks, not the real substance. The GOP base can smell the fear, and the left is walking right into McCains rope-a-dope. Take a hint from me... let Palin go... McCain is your primary, proceed to target.

How convenient... let Palin go before the truth comes out. Riiiight. We need to keep pushing until every single one of those voters knows how unqualified she is. Some, like you, will choose to ignore those facts (or dismiss them). Others will not.

Gilsch

09-12-2008, 04:01 AM

Pssst... she's a governor. Of a state. One of fifty executives with such a job in this nation.

The wheels...are coming... off....

Indeed they are. Come on Jube, let's get real here for crying out loud.

The interview I saw tonight made Dan Quayle look like a genius. If it wasn't obvious she has absolutely no meaningful experience or knowledge of basic foreign relations for example (even after undergoing intense coaching the last couple of weeks), there is zero doubt after tonight. I even felt bad for her at times. Just a little. In between laughs. But not too much. :lol:

Bergermeister

09-12-2008, 04:06 AM

Loose quote: "You can actually see Russia from Alaska."

That should suffice.

Gilsch

09-12-2008, 04:12 AM