Obama - McCain Town Hall Debate

[Fellowship]

This thread is for the discussion of the 2nd debate between Obama and McCain.



I thought McCain was grumpy, snotty with fake laughs, rude, condescending, acting like a clown, not on message, he was in fact all over the place with his erratic rhetoric, he was not happy to be there and would not even shake Obama's hand after the debate. McCain has temper issues and for a man his age acts very very childishly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI0iIOqPGak&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/


Obama was actually in tune with average middle class Americans, classy, smart, intelligent, focused and calm, cool and collected. Obama clearly represents a a clear advantage in coming across as presidential.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14364.html

Please share your thoughts.

Fellows

[hardeeharhar]

Yeah, not what McCain needed at this point in the campaign.

At times Obama was brilliant. At times McCain was insightful enough to make me realize why he would have been a better president for the last eight years (if we ignore his anger management issues)...

[SDW2001]

Let me guess: Obama supporters think he won. McCain supporters think he won.


Next!

One thing I will say is that the debate was boring as all hell.

[addabox]

Let me guess: Obama supporters think he won. McCain supporters think he won.


Next!

One thing I will say is that the debate was boring as all hell.

No doubt, but the early polling shows numbers similar to the first presidential and vice-presidential debates. Lopsided numbers for Obama, across the board.

[FormerLurker]

NASHVILLE, Tennessee (CNN) — A national poll of debate watchers suggests that Barack Obama won the second presidential debate.

Fifty-four percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released 30 minutes after the end of the debate say that Obama did the best job Tuesday night, with 30 percent saying McCain performed better.

According to the poll, 64 percent had a favorable opinion of Obama after the debate, an an increase of four points from his pre-debate showing. McCain’s approval rating remains unchanged: 51 percent of those polled had a favorable opinion of McCain after the debate.

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted by telephone with 675 adult Americans who watched the debate. All interviews were taken after the end of the debate. The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 4 percentage point

Wait till you see the breakdown between R, D, & I.

[hardeeharhar]

Let me guess: Obama supporters think he won. McCain supporters think he won.


Next!

One thing I will say is that the debate was boring as all hell.
Really boring, but McCain (if he won) needed something more than a win -- he was already handicapped going into the debate, and he leaves the debate with more Americans seeing unappealing aspects of his personality (the handshake thing is going to haunt him, so too will the fact that he abandoned the building well before Obama) AND more Americans seeing Obama as presidential and engaging.

Unfortunately, I find it hard to believe that McCain's proposal to buy distressed mortgages (which is in the current bail out legislation) will not be perceived as trying to buy the public's vote. It is distressful for this liberal because I honestly think he meant good by it (however bloated it might make things) and he simply failed to read the bill...

[Cake]

Really boring, but McCain (if he won) needed something more than a win -- he was already handicapped going into the debate, and he leaves the debate with more Americans seeing unappealing aspects of his personality (the handshake thing is going to haunt him, so too will the fact that he abandoned the building well before Obama) AND more Americans seeing Obama as presidential and engaging.

As McCain continues to slip in the polls, he needed to really hit a home run to get any traction - he did not.
McCain continued to distort and misrepresent Obama's positions. Tomorrows fact check of this debate will not be kind to him.

McCain will, likely, go more and more negative against Obama and that will not work.
He says he recognizes the problems that we are facing, yet he offers no succinct solutions as I feel Obama does (better health care plan, better tax plan, better plan for Iraq and foreign policy in general, etc.)

I think it's over for McCain.
Barring some crazy October surprise McCain has lost.

[shetline]

http://www.shetline.com/img/that_one_08.jpg

[hardeeharhar]

wow Cake is back?

Seriously, who the fuck isn't back?

[Gilsch]

zzzzzzzzzz is it over yet?

I watched on CNN (I like the little squirrelly lines) and thought it was boring because of the format. Brokaw sucked ass as mod.

I honestly thought Obama had his moments but did just ok. McCain at times really sucked ass tonight. He sounded very nervous/anxious. His breathing was fast and loud. Just weird.

The "that one" comment was the low point. This guy really dislikes Obama and it hurts what's left of his image because it's so bloody obvious. Reach across the aisle eh? Not so much.

[Bergermeister]

When Obama is talking about healthcare, McCain walks over towards the audience and makes an odd gesture with is hand. What was that?

Also, i was looking for a wire on either but couldn't see anything. Yesterday I think I noticed something on Palin in last week's debate; will check again on clearer video.

[Flounder]

My friends, I only watched the first 30 minutes of the debate my friends. However my friends, I think my friends that McCain - my friends - McCain needs my friends to add some additional phrases, my friends, to his list of phrases, my friends, to address groups of people.

My friends!

[franksargent]

I don't know, seeing as I fell asleep about half way through. :rolleyes:

BTW was there a J6P drinking contest this time based on how many times McCain said "my friends" Americans need to know important stuff like that, my friends.

[Outsider]

How do you stop federal spending and then say you're going to buy up all the bad mortgages?

Does Not Compute!

[groverat]

McCain was running around screaming "FREE MONEY!" like a desperate car salesman.

"My friends, we're going to reign in spending by buying you all healthcare and your house."

[jimmac]

Well what can I say?

I think Fellowship sumed it up in the first post.

One more and McCain is toast ( you can probably put a fork in him now but we shouldn't be complacent ).

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/08/debate.poll/index.html

Obama picks up second debate win, poll says Story Highlights
Most debate watchers polled thought Obama won Tuesday's debate

Obama's favorable rating increased after debate; McCain's did not change

More people thought McCain sounded like typical politician during debate

[jimmac]

McCain was running around screaming "FREE MONEY!" like a desperate car salesman.

"My friends, we're going to reign in spending by buying you all healthcare and your house."


If he used that " My friends " one more time!

[FormerLurker]

Wait till you see the breakdown between R, D, & I.

The poll suggests that independent voters thought Obama won the debate.

Fifty-four percent of those identifying themselves as independents said the Illinois senator performed best, with 28 percent saying that McCain did the better job. iReport.com: Who do you think won the debate

Among Democrats, 85 percent said Obama won with just 5 percent saying McCain did better. Among Republicans, 64 percent said McCain won, with 16 percent saying Obama did better.

[BRussell]

As I watched the debate, one question kept coming to my mind: Who IS Barack Obama? Who is he REALLY?

[franksargent]

As I watched the debate, one question kept coming to my mind: Who IS Barack Obama? Who is he REALLY?

Our next president.

[Outsider]

You betcha.

[screener]

As I watched the debate, one question kept coming to my mind: Who IS Barack Obama? Who is he REALLY?
Yeah Stupidestman at MacNN gets tiresome to everyone but himself.

[BRussell]

Yeah Stupidestman at MacNN gets tiresome to everyone but himself. I wasn't thinking of him. People like him just get their marching orders from the McCain campaign (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsE8GbLM8U).

[screener]

I wasn't thinking of him. People like him just get their marching orders from the McCain campaign (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsE8GbLM8U).
He started a thread of the same name over there, shouldn't assume I guess.

[sammi jo]

Our next president.

... perhaps. But doomed to certain failure. 7 years of destruction under BushCorp will take decades to fix. It will take 4 years just to decelerate the downhill momentum, to the point we can shift into forward gear. A full recovery? Forget it... not in any of our lifetimes. If elected, Obama will be a one term president, if he survives until Nov. 2012., and if he does, his administration will be labeled a failed presidency.

[BRussell]

He started a thread of the same name over there, shouldn't assume I guess. Oh, I knew exactly what you were talking about, I just wanted to point out that this "Who is Obama really" thing is not just one crazy internet poster's idea, it's the essence of the national campaign strategy right now.

[Laughing Gull]

... perhaps. But doomed to certain failure. 7 years of destruction under BushCorp will take decades to fix. It will take 4 years just to decelerate the downhill momentum, to the point we can shift into forward gear. A full recovery? Forget it... not in any of our lifetimes. If elected, Obama will be a one term president, if he survives until Nov. 2012., and if he does, his administration will be labeled a failed presidency.


Wow! That's pessimistic. I fear for your well being if McCain wins.

[franksargent]

... perhaps. But doomed to certain failure. 7 years of destruction under BushCorp will take decades to fix. It will take 4 years just to decelerate the downhill momentum, to the point we can shift into forward gear. A full recovery? Forget it... not in any of our lifetimes. If elected, Obama will be a one term president, if he survives until Nov. 2012., and if he does, his administration will be labeled a failed presidency.

http://www.girlzone.com/html/ouija/board.jpg

[sammi jo]

Wow! That's pessimistic. I fear for your well being if McCain wins.

I wouldn't say "pessimistic"... I am an optimist, even though my posts regarding politics usually don't reflect that. Can anyone can see how an Obama presidency can halt the runaway truck with no brakes...

My wellbeing? I'm doing just fine. The weather here is wonderful. I have a day off, and I am going to the beach this afternoon. McCain, Obama...McBama, O'Cain. Whatever.. two spokespeople, arbitrary figureheads, both owned by the same team, with a slight rearrangement of emphasis and priorities.

Pah!

[Northgate]

Well, unfortunately, we played the drinking game at a debate party. I drew the "my friends" card out of the hat.

Needless to say after about the first 30 minutes of the debate ... well ... I hit the floor. :lol::lol::lol:

[Northgate]

Actually, I am a lightweight when it comes to liquor. Plus I'm not much of a drinker to begin with. But I knew I was in trouble when I pulled that phrase out of the basket and everyone went, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"!

That's when the little voice in my head said, "You're fucked." :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jimmac]

I wouldn't say "pessimistic"... I am an optimist, even though my posts regarding politics usually don't reflect that. Can anyone can see how an Obama presidency can halt the runaway truck with no brakes...

My wellbeing? I'm doing just fine. The weather here is wonderful. I have a day off, and I am going to the beach this afternoon. McCain, Obama...McBama, O'Cain. Whatever.. two spokespeople, arbitrary figureheads, both owned by the same team, with a slight rearrangement of emphasis and priorities.

Pah!

Well you can think what you want but I think there is a big difference between the Democrats and the republicans. Quite frankly I think the voting public is so tired of the republicans it'll be a while before they're back.

[Cake]

wow Cake is back?

Seriously, who the fuck isn't back?
No one knows who I am (I don't post enough), but thanks for the recognition.

When Obama is talking about healthcare, McCain walks over towards the audience and makes an odd gesture with is hand. What was that?

Also, i was looking for a wire on either but couldn't see anything. Yesterday I think I noticed something on Palin in last week's debate; will check again on clearer video.

Yeah, the hand thing was truly odd. Here's a clip for those of you who missed it (http://web.me.com/drew1/Strange_Things/Weird_McCain_Gesture.html).

I only recorded the debate in standard def on my computer, but I was watching it in HD on my TV and I'm convinced that if there's a HD capture out there someone could decipher the notes that McCain was scrawling.
There were a couple of times where you could easily see his hand movements.

[SDW2001]

No doubt, but the early polling shows numbers similar to the first presidential and vice-presidential debates. Lopsided numbers for Obama, across the board.

That depends on the poll. The liberal networks? Obama wins. FNC? 86% McCain. Drudge? 70 something percent McCain. The instant polls are pretty useless I think.

Now, this is more interesting. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Obama is up, but just beyond the margin of error on average. And the polls are all over the place. Gallup is Obama +11. Hotline and Zogby are +1/+2, within the margin. Polling momentum seems to be swinging back to McCain. The electoral map still doesn't look good for McCain though.

[BRussell]

That depends on the poll. The liberal networks? Obama wins. FNC? 86% McCain. Drudge? 70 something percent McCain. The instant polls are pretty useless I think. Are you sure those aren't just self-selected internet polls? The instant polls he's talking about are real polls of undecided voters, not internet "click here to vote" -type polls.

[Flounder]

That depends on the poll. The liberal networks? Obama wins. FNC? 86% McCain. Drudge? 70 something percent McCain. The instant polls are pretty useless I think.

You do realize that the Fox "poll" of the debate was a text-message, self-selecting poll, i.e. that it means absolutely nothing, yes? Do you really think the people watching the debate on Fox News aren't overwhelmingly republicans?

Drudge I assume is a self-selecting poll on his web page, i.e. it also represents nothing.

You might as well pull random numbers out of a hat.

ACTUAL polls of undecided voters taken right after the debate showed a solid Obama win.

[SDW2001]

You do realize that the Fox "poll" of the debate was a text-message, self-selecting poll, i.e. that it means absolutely nothing, yes? Do you really think the people watching the debate on Fox News aren't overwhelmingly republicans?

Drudge I assume is a self-selecting poll on his web page, i.e. it also represents nothing.

You might as well pull random numbers out of a hat.

ACTUAL polls of undecided voters taken right after the debate showed a solid Obama win.

Let's see them. And let's remember that undecided voters are not the only ones voting.

[hardeeharhar]

Let's see them. And let's remember that undecided voters are not the only ones voting.

Go to fivethirtyeight.com

look for the post.

here (from pollster):

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/re_debate_reaction_town_hall_d.php

[jimmac]

That depends on the poll. The liberal networks? Obama wins. FNC? 86% McCain. Drudge? 70 something percent McCain. The instant polls are pretty useless I think.

Now, this is more interesting. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Obama is up, but just beyond the margin of error on average. And the polls are all over the place. Gallup is Obama +11. Hotline and Zogby are +1/+2, within the margin. Polling momentum seems to be swinging back to McCain. The electoral map still doesn't look good for McCain though.

Even McCain calls himself " The underdog " now.
This is just about finished.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/08/borger.analysis/index.html

Borger: McCain running out of time, and lines Story Highlights
Questions about leadership in crisis are not theoretical, Borger says

Borger: In debate, McCain was full of moments missed, Obama aggressive

Borger: McCain has to figure out a new deal fast if he wants to win

Obama's in the process of closing the deal with voters, Borger says

[SDW2001]

Go to fivethirtyeight.com

look for the post.

here (from pollster):

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/re_debate_reaction_town_hall_d.php

I'm sorry, I cannot accept those numbers. One poll as 22 percent of Republicans saying Obama won. They have to be kidding. I simply don't by it.

[SDW2001]

Even McCain calls himself " The underdog " now.
This is just about finished.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/08/borger.analysis/index.html

But national polls show the race tightening, jimmac. Zogby shows a statistical dead heat, for example. Right now Obama has the advantage...that I agree with. But saying it's "finished" is really premature.

[hardeeharhar]

But national polls show the race tightening, jimmac. Zogby shows a statistical dead heat, for example. Right now Obama has the advantage...that I agree with. But saying it's "finished" is really premature.
SDW, I am not sure I have seen evidence of the race tightening as opposed to settling on an Obama lead -- the average of the various trackers has been constant for the last few days...

[hardeeharhar]

I'm sorry, I cannot accept those numbers. One poll as 22 percent of Republicans saying Obama won. They have to be kidding. I simply don't by it.
Is this some sort of fingers in ears thing?

Is your external voice screaming "lalalalalalalalalalaI can't hear you"?

Honest questions.

[SDW2001]

SDW, I am not sure I have seen evidence of the race tightening as opposed to settling on an Obama lead -- the average of the various trackers has been constant for the last few days...

Again, Zogby is Obama +3. Hotline is +1. One other poll is +2. Those are all within the margin.

Is this some sort of fingers in ears thing?

Is your external voice screaming "lalalalalalalalalalaI can't hear you"?

Honest questions.

Come on...do those numbers really pass the smell test for you? 22% of Republicans think Obama won? Imagine if I said that 20% of Hillary supporters might vote for McCain. That last time that was discussed, you guys kind of went apeshit.

[hardeeharhar]

Again, Zogby is Obama +3. Hotline is +1. One other poll is +2. Those are all within the margin.

Hotline is actually +6, Zogby +4, GW is +3(has always been bit lower than the others).

Now of course, this ignores Gallop: +11, Ramusen +5....

So in other words, the race hasn't tightened.



Come on...do those numbers really pass the smell test for you? 22% of Republicans think Obama won? Imagine if I said that 20% of Hillary supporters might vote for McCain. That last time that was discussed, you guys kind of went apeshit.

McCain really did that poorly, I am sorry to say.

[BRussell]

Yeah I don't think there's any evidence of the race tightening. At best, it's leveled off after a week or two of Obama's lead getting larger.

[Bergermeister]

McCain really did that poorly, I am sorry to say.

Yes, my friends, he did.

He is now losing to that one.

---

Remember: all of the polls and media are in the tank for Obama because they are run by Eastern liberal elitist wine-drinkers.

[trumptman]

I'm not even of the view that McCain can pull this thing out. It was an uphill climb to begin with and the largest event driving the election narrative right now is the economy and that isn't going to go away before election day. There are events the campaigns can control and others they cannot. McCain and Palin held very well against the media onslaught that occurred due to them fearing her ability to make Obama lose ground. That was something they could and did control. Bush and Paulson waltzing out and begging for three quarters of a trillion dollars and then a Democratic Congress handing it out plus an extra 100 billion of goodies isn't something the McCain campaign can control nor even really argue against since he will vote for it.

This thing is done. Stick a fork in it. There aren't any more bullets left to fire in the campaign gun. The media are willing Obama conspirators and there isn't anything other than the talking points and the economy for them to report between now and the election. If something external were to change that narrative their reporting on it would give McCain a chance to get a word in edgewise, but that isn't going to happen.

[hardeeharhar]

Hotline is actually +6, Zogby +4, GW is +3(has always been bit lower than the others).

Now of course, this ignores Gallop: +11, Ramusen +5....

So in other words, the race hasn't tightened.




McCain really did that poorly, I am sorry to say.
And here are some more polls showing just how poorly:

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/09/polls_confirm_obama_won_debate.html

[addabox]

Pollster (http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/08-us-pres-ge-mvo.php) shows a leveling out, both of McCain's plummet and Obama's rise. There are slight indications that the debate will give Obama another uptick.

McCain and Palin's negatives continue to deteriorate, Obama's positives continue to improve.

But more important than any of that are the Electoral College numbers. A lot of McCain's national numbers are "wasted" in that they are coming from states he is going to lose. Obama's numbers are far more efficient, in this respect. Obama continues to improve in battleground and former Bush states; McCain is just bouncing the rubble in the reddest of the red.

If I were a Republican, I would be acclimating myself to the idea that my party is going to take a pretty bad drubbing come November. I would also be starting to think about how the rebuilding process is going to deal with the terrible damage Bush, McCain and Palin have done and are doing to the brand. Bush has yoked the party to incompetence and cronyism; McCain and Palin are doing there best to convince America that the Republicans represent some of the worst, most regressive tendencies in America.

Do you really want to be a regional party of the south and the least populated states in the country? Do you really want to be the party of George Wallace and John Birch, circa 1965?

For the minority of Americans that get a thrill out of calling for the death of "commies and fags", that would be a welcome development. It would also insure Democratic governance for the foreseeable future.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

. If something external were to change that narrative their reporting on it would give McCain a chance to get a word in edgewise, but that isn't going to happen.

Cheer up, Nick. There's the Troopergate ruling tomorrow (http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/10/09/12/AK001__2_.source.prod_affiliate.7.pdf) on Sarah Palin's abuse of gubernatorial power.

I'm sure that'll give John McCain something to talk about.

[addabox]

You know, the absolutely frothing hatred of the "liberal media" that is being cultivated by the McPalin campaign as a point of tribal identity makes me wonder about the ability of the party to right itself, after the election.

There's "working the refs", and then there's threatening to shoot the refs in the head. Generally the latter is unlikely to get you the coverage you're looking for.

If unbridled spite and resentment continue to be the main glue holding the Republicans together, they're eventually going to turn on on another, if that hasn't started to happen already.

Sure, the right has built its insular little reality, but, going forward, is that a winning strategy? The problem with insular worlds is that they become increasingly unintelligible to outsiders. You go to make your case to the larger electorate, and you appear to be speaking in tongues, as it were.

[Northgate]

I'm not even of the view that McCain can pull this thing out. It was an uphill climb to begin with and the largest event driving the election narrative right now is the economy and that isn't going to go away before election day. There are events the campaigns can control and others they cannot. McCain and Palin held very well against the media onslaught that occurred due to them fearing her ability to make Obama lose ground. That was something they could and did control. Bush and Paulson waltzing out and begging for three quarters of a trillion dollars and then a Democratic Congress handing it out plus an extra 100 billion of goodies isn't something the McCain campaign can control nor even really argue against since he will vote for it.

This thing is done. Stick a fork in it. There aren't any more bullets left to fire in the campaign gun. The media are willing Obama conspirators and there isn't anything other than the talking points and the economy for them to report between now and the election. If something external were to change that narrative their reporting on it would give McCain a chance to get a word in edgewise, but that isn't going to happen.

I agree with you for the most part. But I have some theories on why the media turned on McCain in the first place (which we can discuss later or in a different thread).

[Northgate]

You know, the absolutely frothing hatred of the "liberal media" that is being cultivated by the McPalin campaign as a point of tribal identity makes me wonder about the ability of the party to right itself, after the election.

There's "working the refs", and then there's threatening to shoot the refs in the head. Generally the latter is unlikely to get you the coverage you're looking for.

There's a lot of truth in that statement.

Perhaps we should start a thread shortly after the election to discuss the media's role in all of this. Why did they originally unilaterally support McCain and give him big sweeping passes on his foreign policy gaffes? Why did they turn on him? Was it irresponsibility on the part of the media or was it more complex then that? What part does Obama's "phenomenon" story-line play in all of this?

Then we can discuss the media and Obama. Why did the media insist and still insist that we still don't know anything about Barack Obama even though he's been campaigning for two years and just won the most notorious Democratic primary in history? Does the media treat Obama differently because of race, both positive and negative? Did the media create Obama's "John Kennedy" aura or was that a creation of the grassroots love affair with the man?

[addabox]

There's a lot of truth in that statement.

Perhaps we should start a thread shortly after the election to discuss the media's role in all of this. Why did they originally unilaterally support McCain and give him big sweeping passes on his foreign policy gaffes? Why did they turn on him? Was it irresponsibility on the part of the media or was it more complex then that? What part does Obama's "phenomenon" story-line play in all of this?

Then we can discuss the media and Obama. Why did the media insist and still insist that we still don't know anything about Barack Obama even though he's been campaigning for two years and just won the most notorious Democratic primary in history? Does the media treat Obama differently because of race, both positive and negative? Did the media create Obama's "John Kennedy" aura or was that a creation of the grassroots love affair with the man?

Well, my impression is that "the media" is best characterized as lazy and fatuous.

The vast majority of "reporting" on a presidential race happens at the level of celebrity gossip, backed up by long standing conventional wisdom narrative lines that serve as all purpose receptacles for whatever happens, so as to spare the journalists the agony of actually having to reflect, think or analyze.

Going into the campaign, we had the usual story of McCain as "strong on national security daddy", and Obama as "strong on social issues mommy."

But I think what happened this time is an artifact of McCain's particular (and peculiar) relationship with the press (AKA his base). After being their pal and BBQ host and straight talker and (by their lights) all around decent guy and breath of fresh air in the stuffy rooms of political campaigns, he turned into the opposite. His handlers started controlling access, he started saying patently false things, he turned grumpy and brusque, and the worse things went for his campaign, the worse those things got.

Now, I am of the opinion that Saint BBQ was a fiction from the get-go, but from the media's perspective their buddy turned on them. From McCain's perspective his base betrayed him.

Bitter feelings all around, enough to disrupt the usual process, which in prior campaigns would have had the Ayers story front and center by now, with a lot of yammering about Obama's "terrorist problem."

For the right, of course, the media failing to simply echo whatever the RNC is selling amounts to a treasonous sell-out, which is kind of cute.