Ruling: Palin Abused Power

[groverat]

Put a fork in her. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_el_pr/palin_troopergate)

She's done.

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Sarah Palin unlawfully abused her power as governor by trying to have her former brother-in-law fired as a state trooper, the chief investigator of an Alaska legislative panel concluded Friday. The politically charged inquiry imperiled her reputation as a reformer on John McCain's Republican ticket.

Investigator Stephen Branchflower, in a report by a bipartisan panel that investigated the matter, found Palin in violation of a state ethics law that prohibits public officials from using their office for personal gain.

The inquiry looked into her dismissal of Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan, who said he lost his job because he resisted pressure to fire a state trooper involved in a bitter divorce with the governor's sister. Palin says Monegan was fired as part of a legitimate budget dispute.

The report found that Palin let the family grudge influence her decision-making even if it was not the sole reason Monegan was dismissed. "I feel vindicated," Monegan said. "It sounds like they've validated my belief and opinions. And that tells me I'm not totally out in left field."

Branchflower said Palin violated a statute of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act.

The 12-person panel featured 8 Republicans and 4 Democrats.

Sarah Palin has been found, by a panel of her fellow Republicans, to be guilty of abusing her power as Alaska's governor and violating Alaska's ethics codes.

This is the woman John McCain has told the American people is ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. This is his #2. This was his choice, out of all the available candidates.

What is there to say about it? It's embarrassing for them, and it's clear why they have been so focused on the politics of hate and fear. They are a nightmare of leadership incompetence.

[jimmac]

It's done now.

Not really too soon.

It's too bad that things had to get this point but at least we'll have a decent president next time. It's what's needed to put things right.

[BRussell]

Knowing McCain, this could be an excuse to roll the dice, shake things up, and pick someone else. Joe Lieberman? Colin Powell?

[groverat]

I think McCain is starting to realize that he royally fucked his legacy. I hope he is starting to realize it, because not only is he going to lose the election, he's going to lose any credibility he ever had.

[addabox]

I think ya'll are underestimating the imperviousness of bizarro world to external reality.

They'll call it a vindication, or the inevitable outcome of a partisan witch-hunt, or, hell, I don't know, evidence of how far the Obama conspiracy actually goes.

Maybe it's evidence that the entire Alaskan political system has been compromised, or that the terrorists have won. Maybe "abuse of power" is the new right wing turn on. Maybe Palin rallies will now feature voters screaming "abuse me, Sarah!", before fainting dead away.

Actually, I think they'll claim that the report shows Palin was technically athwart some minor technicality, declare it old news, and demand that we move on.

I honestly don't think they will back down, however.

[addabox]

Yep: (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/troopergate_report_mccain_camp.php)

"Today's report shows that the Governor acted within her proper and lawful authority in the reassignment of Walt Monegan," said Palin spokeswoman Meg Stapelton. "The report also illustrates what we've known all along: this was a partisan led inquiry run by Obama supporters and the Palins were completely justified in their concern regarding Trooper Wooten given his violent and rogue behavior. Lacking evidence to support the original Monegan allegation, the Legislative Council seriously overreached, making a tortured argument to find fault without basis in law or fact. The Governor is looking forward to cooperating with the Personnel Board and continuing her conversation with the American people regarding the important issues facing the country."

[Bergermeister]

Glad this came out; they certainly tried hard to stop it and then to direct attention towards other things.

Do not let these right wingers near public office. They are a threat to the entire world.

[jimmac]

I think ya'll are underestimating the imperviousness of bizarro world to external reality.

They'll call it a vindication, or the inevitable outcome of a partisan witch-hunt, or, hell, I don't know, evidence of how far the Obama conspiracy actually goes.

Maybe it's evidence that the entire Alaskan political system has been compromised, or that the terrorists have won. Maybe "abuse of power" is the new right wing turn on. Maybe Palin rallies will now feature voters screaming "abuse me, Sarah!", before fainting dead away.

Actually, I think they'll claim that the report shows Palin was technically athwart some minor technicality, declare it old news, and demand that we move on.

I honestly don't think they will back down, however.

Oh they won't stop but it was going this direction already. Now she's toast however and future historians will see this as the final coffin nail for these two.

[addabox]

Oh they won't stop but it was going this direction already. Now she's toast however and future historians will see this as the final coffin nail for these two.

Depends on who's writing the history. According to the right, Nixon was hounded from office by liberal jihadis, and was actually an excellent president. According to the right, history that says otherwise is simply liberal propaganda.

With the damage that the right has done, is doing and will do to the idea of consensual reality, reasonable expertise and the possibility of objective truth, I see no reason to imagine that Palin's disgraceful performance (they're done with McCain, he'll have to fend for himself) in this campaign won't be seriously and aggressively put forward as a great breakthrough for real Americans and the beginning of a glorious new day for real conservatism.

The right has reached the point where being 180º out of phase with reality is a badge of authenticity and honor. Brandishing a stinking, rotting fish carcass and angrily insisting that we kiss that beautiful baby or be prepared to pay the consequences has become a tribal greeting.

I just pray that there aren't enough of them to seriously hamper the work that needs to be done. We're facing some pretty titanic difficulties in this country, and trying to tie-up an Obama administration in Clinton-style bullshit will probably well and truly fuck us all.

[pfflam]

I think ya'll are underestimating the imperviousness of bizarro world to external reality.

They'll call it a vindication, or the inevitable outcome of a partisan witch-hunt, or, hell, I don't know, evidence of how far the Obama conspiracy actually goes.

Maybe it's evidence that the entire Alaskan political system has been compromised, or that the terrorists have won. Maybe "abuse of power" is the new right wing turn on. Maybe Palin rallies will now feature voters screaming "abuse me, Sarah!", before fainting dead away.

Actually, I think they'll claim that the report shows Palin was technically athwart some minor technicality, declare it old news, and demand that we move on.

I honestly don't think they will back down, however.

Absolutely, this won't phase them in the least, they'll turn it into a media problem, blame it on photos, say those 4-Dems were abusing their power over the 8-Republicans and, Voila!, biz as usual.

[addabox]

Absolutely, this won't phase them in the least, they'll turn it into a media problem, blame it on photos, say those 4-Dems were abusing their power over the 8-Republicans and, Voila!, biz as usual.

Yep. I mean, they are even now, absolutely sure that the smoldering craters they have dug for the country on every front-- political, economic, military, constitutional, you name it-- are the work of liberals. There is no capacity for self critique in this bunch. They got their shot, they may have doomed us all, and they are utterly without remorse or shame or even the slightest notion that maybe, just maybe, some of that good old fashioned jingo/free market/mighty leader/fuck the hippies shit didn't really work out that well. Because, you know, liberals made banks give loans to shiftless niggers, which is all you need to know.

What used to pass for reasoned discourse and analysis on the right has long since been supplanted by, variously, aggressive stupidity, garden variety cynicism, willful ignorance, the ugliest demagoguery imaginable, and what I can only see as the deliberate embrace of some seriously retro John Birch action, compete with open racial hostility and a 1950s-under-siege-by-foreigners vibe that may well get pretty violent in the years to come. The right seems to regard America as something like a zombie movie, with heartland white people starring as the only remaining human beings fighting a desperate war with the shuffling, brain craving undead. It's a scenario that clearly calls for some pretty heavy firepower, and given the right's unwillingness to reign this shit in, I think a lot of people are getting the idea that treating Obama and "his people" like a demon plague is reasonable and appropriate. So what does a right thinking American do about a demon plague?

Which is fucking horrible, because I happen to believe that we need all hands on deck to navigate the iceberg infested waters before us. Principled conservatives have valuable ideas that need to be on the table. Unfortunately, "principled conservative" is fast becoming an oxymoron.

If you can't be honest about how we got here, you can't offer up any solutions as to how to proceed.

[jimmac]

Depends on who's writing the history. According to the right, Nixon was hounded from office by liberal jihadis, and was actually an excellent president. According to the right, history that says otherwise is simply liberal propaganda.

With the damage that the right has done, is doing and will do to the idea of consensual reality, reasonable expertise and the possibility of objective truth, I see no reason to imagine that Palin's disgraceful performance (they're done with McCain, he'll have to fend for himself) in this campaign won't be seriously and aggressively put forward as a great breakthrough for real Americans and the beginning of a glorious new day for real conservatism.

The right has reached the point where being 180º out of phase with reality is a badge of authenticity and honor. Brandishing a stinking, rotting fish carcass and angrily insisting that we kiss that beautiful baby or be prepared to pay the consequences has become a tribal greeting.

I just pray that there aren't enough of them to seriously hamper the work that needs to be done. We're facing some pretty titanic difficulties in this country, and trying to tie-up an Obama administration in Clinton-style bullshit will probably well and truly fuck us all.

Well nothing will change the basic facts that Nixon ordered an illegal breaking and entering to obtain information to influence a presidential election. That's why he resigned. His future in politics was gone after that. Prosecuted or not. Much as some may want to cover that up or spin it some way. Those are the facts and that was the outcome. He didn't go to jail and even said in his memoirs that he believed he did the right thing and would do it again. But he couldn't do anymore from that point on. He never spent any time in jail but the real bad guys never do. They simply fade into history. As will the figures from this time.

Yes I've talked to McCain supporters where I work and their " Facts " are a little under researched. Two of them were going to vote for McCain but didn't think about or realize he could easily die soon. They weren't aware he'd had cancer and didn't think about his age. All they knew was their group ( family, friends etc. ) were voting for the republicans and they didn't trust Obama for reasons they were a little cloudy about. One person ( yes I made the mistake of voicing my opinion to this group because they were so vocal about their voting choice and got tired of biting my tongue ) said " What will you do when Obama wins, things don't get better, and I'm laughing at you? " My reply was " Have you considered what you will do if Obama wins and things do get better? I won't be laughing at you. " To this his smile faded and he said nothing. One person stated the obvious that things are so bad it'll take a long time for whoever gets in there to correct. This is striking at their core beliefs and it hurts. This is some of the mentality your dealing with.

The republicans are desperate right now. They have been betrayed by their own party which hasn't stuck to the values for which they're known. This is all because of the neocons. They've been what has been passing for republicans in Washington since 1994. Their time is almost finished and it's got most of them scared and desperate. What the neocons have been doing is apparent for all to see now and it's not pretty. So they and their supporters make excuses.

This will pass. I don't think we'll have to deal with this group again for a long time. At least not in this form and so well organized. I'm sure some will try to make Obama out to be a failure due to issues that began before he took office. However I think within a few years time it will become apparent that he was a good choice. At least for anyone who cares to admit it. The smoke and mirrors don't work anymore. They've been to that well too many times.

I'm hoping there isn't a bullitt with Obama's name on it out there as some have said but I'm confident Biden would also make a good leader. That's always been a problem for figures of change in our gun toting society.

As for the far right. They'll have to fade into the woodwork for now as their leaders in Washington have been extremely naughty this time around.

Remember this is a cycle. It's the way our system works. Just like last time we had a Bush in the Whitehouse. When he left office you stopped hearing about all the usual rhetoric in the media ( like the failed war on drugs and anti abortion groups ). Attitudes changed. I think you'll see even more of that this time. This will be a time for liberals and the left again because the right has had their shot and failed so badly. Not so much because of their values but because of hypcritical leadership.

It's too bad so much ground was lost during the Bush years because we have so much work to do to repair the country.

As for the next few years given a little luck this economic crisis won't last too long and the restoration of this country can begin again. Restructuring our lending system will be part of that. I for one look forward to it.

[addabox]

Well nothing will change the basic facts that Nixon ordered an illegal breaking and entering to obtain information to influence a presidential election. That's why he resigned. His future in politics was gone after that. Prosecuted or not. Much as some may want to cover that up or spin it some way. Those are the facts and that was the outcome. He didn't go to jail and even said in his memoirs that he believe he did the right thing and would do it again. But he couldn't do anymore from that point on. He never spent any time in jail but the real bad guys never do. They simply fade into history. As will the figures from this time.

But "Nixonism" was not successfully repudiated in the minds of the conservative mindset. We are reaping the harvest of that fact now.

The abuse of power in the Bush White House puts Nixon to shame. The underlying justification-- that political dirty tricks, manipulation of information, politicalization of the mechanisms of the federal government, domestic surveillance, and the general trappings of an "imperial presidency" are right and necessary because the country is under siege by enemies within and without-- are straight out of the Nixon playbook, but supercharged and abetted by a deteriorated media.

The players change but no lessons are learned. You will not find a conservative pundit willing to admit that Nixon taught us something, or anything, about the wisdom of circling the wagons around cultural wedge-issues, or that making a false appeal to the "silent majority" as a fig leaf for rampant illegality does more harm to your cause than good.

Even if Sarah Palin goes away, "Palinism" will not. They'll just find a smoother, more palatable spokes-model.

[jimmac]

But "Nixonism" was not successfully repudiated in the minds of the conservative mindset. We are reaping the harvest of that fact now.

The abuse of power in the Bush White House puts Nixon to shame. The underlying justification-- that political dirty tricks, manipulation of information, politicalization of the mechanisms of the federal government, domestic surveillance, and the general trappings of an "imperial presidency" are right and necessary because the country is under siege by enemies within and without-- are straight out of the Nixon playbook, but supercharged and abetted by a deteriorated media.

The players change but no lessons are learned. You will not find a conservative pundit willing to admit that Nixon taught us something, or anything, about the wisdom of circling the wagons around cultural wedge-issues, or that making a false appeal to the "silent majority" as a fig leaf for rampant illegality does more harm to your cause than good.

Even if Sarah Palin goes away, "Palinism" will not. They'll just find a smoother, more palatable spokes-model.

No They'll always be around. But they will have to take a back seat for now. Look at McCain's campaign. He's using the same smoke and mirrors rhetoric from the Nixon/Bush playbook. Only it's not working. The cat's out of the bag and it took an economic crisis to do it. Too bad it didn't happen with other mistakes like Iraq. It's kind of a sad commentary on the american voting public that it takes a hit to their pocketbook again to wake them up. But whatever it takes. It's a cycle.

[ROFF]

Well nothing will change the basic facts that Nixon ordered an illegal breaking and entering to obtain information to influence a presidential election. That's why he resigned. His future in politics was gone after that. Prosecuted or not. Much as some may want to cover that up or spin it some way. Those are the facts and that was the outcome. He didn't go to jail and even said in his memoirs that he believed he did the right thing and would do it again. But he couldn't do anymore from that point on. He never spent any time in jail but the real bad guys never do. They simply fade into history. As will the figures from this time.

Yes I've talked to McCain supporters where I work and their " Facts " are a little under researched. Two of them were going to vote for McCain but didn't think about or realize he could easily die soon. They weren't aware he'd had cancer and didn't think about his age. All they knew was their group ( family, friends etc. ) were voting for the republicans and they didn't trust Obama for reasons they were a little cloudy about. One person ( yes I made the mistake of voicing my opinion to this group because they were so vocal about their voting choice and got tired of biting my tongue ) said " What will you do when Obama wins, things don't get better, and I'm laughing at you. " My reply was " Have you considered what you will do if Obama wins and things do get better. I won't be laughing at you. " To this his smile faded and he said nothing. One person stated the obvious that things are so bad it'll take a long time for whoever gets in there to correct. This is the some of the mentality your dealing with.

The republicans are desperate right now. They have been betrayed by their own party which hasn't stuck to the values for which they're known. This is all because of the neocons. They've been what has been passing for republicans in Washington since 1994. Their time is almost finished and it's got most of them scared and desperate. What the neocons have been doing is apparent for all to see now and it's not pretty. So they make excuses.

This will pass. I don't think we'll have to deal with this group again. At least not in this form and so well organized. I'm sure some will try to make Obama out to be a failure do to issues that began before he took office. However I think within a few years time it will become apparent that he was a good choice. At least for anyone who cares to admit it. The smoke and mirrors don't work anymore. They've been to that well too many times.

I'm hoping there isn't a bullit with Obama's name on it out there as some have said but I'm confident Biden would also make a good leader. That's always been a problem for figures of change in our gun toting society.

As for the far right. They'll have to fade into the woodwork for now as their leaders in Washington have been extremely naughty this time around.

Remember this is a cycle. It's the way our system works. Just like last time we had a Bush in the Whitehouse. When he left office you stopped hearing about all the usual rhetoric in the media ( like the failed war on drugs and anti abortion groups ). Attitudes changed. I think you'll see even more of that this time. This will be a time for liberals and the left again because the right has had their shot and failed so badly. Not so much because of their values but because of hypcritical leadership.

It's too bad so much ground was lost during the Bush years because we have so much work to do to repair the country.

As for the next few years given a little luck this economic crisis won't last too long and the restoration of this country can begin again. Restructuring our lending system will be part of that. I for one look forward to it.

Basically I agree with you, but I think that you should be prepared for the following argument: Bush was to liberal. He was NOT a true Republican. If he had implemented TRUE Republican principles that were not watered down with Democratic sabotage from Congress everything now would be Goodness and Light(TM).

Anything can and will be spun to the effect that We were right and They were wrong. Logic can be suspended.

[jimmac]

Basically I agree with you, but I think that you should be prepared for the following argument: Bush was to liberal. He was NOT a true Republican. If he had implemented TRUE Republican principles that were not watered down with Democratic sabotage from Congress everything now would be Goodness and Light(TM).

Anything can and will be spun to the effect that We were right and They were wrong. Logic can be suspended.

They've already tried that one. It doesn't hold water for two reasons. One. Our government has been Republican/Republican for 6 out of the last 8 years. That's most of the Bush administration. They've had plenty of unfettered time to make things all " Goodness and light ". And you can see the results for yourself. I'm sure there will be those that will believe your point no matter what. But they'll have to to take a powder for now because of point two.

And point two. Right now people out there are hurting and feel betrayed by their government. This is why McCain's campaign doesn't stand a chance. Had he run at another time ( one where the people weren't already out of patience with another asshole ) we might be in real trouble. As I see the McCain/Palin duo as worse than Bush.

[Gilsch]

In our times this is how much Troopergate will mean to this election = 0

[jimmac]

In our times this is how much Troopergate will mean to this election = 0

Yes the soap opera is over. We have to pay attention to reality now.

[FloorJack]

I've always maintained that this story was a big nothing. At worst what did she do, try to have a bad cop fired? They cop tas'ed a 10 year old. Does anyone here want a 10 year old tasing cop in the streets?


Oh wait this is about the "abuse of power". Funny how objections to abuse of power follow party lines.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

I've always maintained that this story was a big nothing. At worst what did she do, try to have a bad cop fired? They cop tas'ed a 10 year old. Does anyone here want a 10 year old tasing cop in the streets?


Oh wait this is about the "abuse of power". Funny how objections to abuse of power follow party lines.

This was a Republican-led enquiry. The decision to release the report, which was unanimous, was taken by a committee of twelve, of which only four were Democrats. The hearings began before Palin was running for election.

Your objection appears to be nonsense.

[FloorJack]

This was a Republican-led enquiry. The decision to release the report, which was unanimous, was taken by a committee of twelve, of which only four were Democrats. The hearings began before Palin was running for election.

Your objection appears to be nonsense.

I'm not sure I'm objecting to anything. I'm just thinking about how the left will market this to possible McCain voters. The product is "Palin is corrupt because she abused her power by using her office personal retribution against a cop." But the counter argument is that the cop is arguably unsavory person. So the left is asking us to have sympathy for the devil so to speak.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

I'm not sure I'm objecting to anything. I'm just thinking about how the left will market this to possible McCain voters. The product is "Palin is corrupt because she abused her power by using her office personal retribution against a cop." But the counter argument is that the cop is arguably unsavory person. So the left is asking us to have sympathy for the devil so to speak.

It doesn't matter who the guy was.

She was pursuing a personal vendetta and she used the power given her by elected position to execute it. She committed a crime. And you know full well that if this was Joe Biden you would probably be demanding his execution.

[groverat]

Wooten was punished by due process of law.

I don't care about Wooten.

[Bergermeister]

That the trooper was or wasn't a good character is not the issue and is an attempt by Camp McCain to obscure the fact that Palin abused her powers as governor; his situation was handled by the appropriate systems. There were ways they could have gone about the issue, but they didn't and instead chose to use the office of governor to apply pressure. If Palin was unhappy with the system, she could have worked to change it, but not do what they did.

---

If Palin - oh how the thought makes me tremble - became president, would Todd get a desk in the Oval Office and be permitted to make calls, say, to Putin to apply pressure on Russia to change its ways? Todd must be at least as proficient on Russia as Palin as he lives where she does, right next to Russia.

[BRussell]

Fortunately there's no record of Republicans abusing power, so a new Republican vice-president who might abuse power will seem highly improbable to most people.

[Mystic]

It's telling that not one of you has read the report. Don't be a lemming. Here's the report in PDF form (http://djkonservo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/palin_troopergate_report.pdf)

[BRussell]

It's telling that not one of you has read the report. Don't be a lemming. Here's the report in PDF form (http://djkonservo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/palin_troopergate_report.pdf) Right, like you've sat there and read the 250-page report.

I recommend that everyone read at least this part: Finding Number One

For the reasons explained in section IV of this report, I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act.

[Bergermeister]

"Amateurish":

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1849399,00.html

[jimmac]

I'm not sure I'm objecting to anything. I'm just thinking about how the left will market this to possible McCain voters. The product is "Palin is corrupt because she abused her power by using her office personal retribution against a cop." But the counter argument is that the cop is arguably unsavory person. So the left is asking us to have sympathy for the devil so to speak.


Well to honest the McCain has run his campaign until recently they would have done the same thing. He has got his supporters so stirred up with his negative rhetoric it's difficult for him to calm them down now.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/11/mccain-to-crowd-dont-be-scared-of-obama-presidency/

McCain to crowd: 'Don't be scared' of Obama presidency

One woman who said she had a lot of undecided neighbors said she wanted McCain to “go to the mattresses” on in his third and final debate with Obama on Wednesday.


While McCain said “I got my marching orders” from the supporters, he still seemed to resist their red-meat rhetoric.

One man said he was scared of an Obama presidency.

“My wife and I are expecting our first child, in April 2nd, next year,” the man said. “And frankly, we're scared. We're scared of an Obama presidency.”

McCain told the man he should not fear Obama.

“I want to be president of the United States, and I don't want Obama to be,” he said. “But I have to tell you, I have to tell you, he is a decent person, and a person that you do not have to be scared as President of the United States.”

McCain's response was met with more boos from the crowd.




It's these kinds of crowds that might contain a wacko that might want to do more than just boo.

[vinea]

This was a Republican-led enquiry. The decision to release the report, which was unanimous, was taken by a committee of twelve, of which only four were Democrats. The hearings began before Palin was running for election.

Your objection appears to be nonsense.

The vote was 12-0 to release by the Legislative Council. So much for following party lines.

Oh wait...next we can call these Republicans RINOs...

[Bergermeister]

Aren't the 8 actually Obama operatives?
:D
---

More on Todd:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-todd12-2008oct12,0,6624850.story

[groverat]

That article is hilarious...

Barely two weeks after Sarah Palin had been sworn in as Alaska's governor, in December 2006, then-Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan's executive secretary got a confusing phone call from Palin's office: The first gentleman would like to schedule a meeting with her boss.

"I was not familiar with the term 'first gentleman,' or didn't hear her correctly, so I kept asking her, 'Who?' " the secretary, Cassandra Byrne, testified recently. "And she eventually said, 'Todd Palin.' "

First Gentleman... :lol:

But once you get past the hilarious awkwardness of Todd Palin desperately seeking power validation by assigning himself an official-sounding title, you get to the problem here: Sarah Palin is a terrible executive.

The subject, it turned out, was Alaska State Trooper Mike Wooten, who had been involved in a messy divorce with the governor's sister. The Palins, Todd made clear, wanted Wooten fired for a long record of behavior they saw as inappropriate for a police officer.

"He kept using the term 'we.' 'We went to go talk to, we, we.' And so I assumed it was he and Sarah, of course," Monegan testified.

The meeting "made me a little uncomfortable," he said. "We're having it in the governor's office, and he's not the governor. I think he was trying to use state trappings to handle a personal issue."

We do not need this in the national executive. This is small town bullshit. This is fucking pathetic and, thanks to Time for this, amateurish.

The woman is a national embarrassment.

[FloorJack]

If by chance McCain wins you guys can twist in anger and demand impeachment of Palin. If not then you can go back to ignoring things you don't actual care about.

[midwinter]

If by chance McCain wins you guys can twist in anger and demand impeachment of Palin. If not then you can go back to ignoring things you don't actual care about.

What the hell are you even talking about?

[groverat]

If by chance McCain wins you guys can twist in anger and demand impeachment of Palin. If not then you can go back to ignoring things you don't actual care about.

What?

[addabox]

If by chance McCain wins you guys can twist in anger and demand impeachment of Palin. If not then you can go back to ignoring things you don't actual care about.

Yeah. It's not like the left has been particularly concerned about the Bush administration's lawlessness or abuse of power. That's just a silly little gotcha we like to trot out when it's expedient.

[addabox]

Speaking of pretending and reversals and whatnot, this post (http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/12613.html) over at Sadly, No! was quite good, I thought.

The author is responding to a post at Connecticut Yankee which describes a brisk uptick in the weapons trade, darkly insinuating that the coming of the Obama is causing thoughtful, cautious Americans to arm themselves to the fucking teeth:

The ongoing stock market crash has given a keen edge to this perennial daydream, this powerful intersection of the desires of the cod-Libertarian science-fiction fan and those of the cod-populist rural crank. When Confederate Yankee drops the name “Barack” at the end of his tale, it’s meant to invoke something that he, himself might not be able to explain in plain language, but that’s nevertheless pretty easy to understand for anyone who’s experienced the antics of the Confederate-Yankocracy since the mixed blessing of the Internet enabled them in media other than the micro-scrawled journal and the talk radio call-in line.

It signifies a return to the wingnut ethos of the Clinton years, before the conspiratorial, wackadoo right wing fell in love with George W. Bush, and thus with government power and weird neo-royalist notions of the Executive Branch. It’s a return to the “jackbooted government thugs” iconography of the ’90s, in which incidents such as Ruby Ridge and Waco were seen as defining a historical fault line between an illegitimate, runaway Federalism and a perpetually threatened organic America — the often agrarian, invariably pre-capitalist order imagined and extolled throughout the early 20th Century by characters from William Jennings Bryan to Father Coughlin, and later in even sillier fashion by conservatives from Pat Buchanan, to G. Gordon Liddy, to Rod Dreher. Armed militias, or at least groups of fat yo-yos with guns, sprang up to oppose a hallucinatory, originally Birch-concocted trend toward world government and to defend the sanctity of the Constitution — whose feckless shredding they would later, as we know, cheer, as soon as a spite-lofted pseudoconservative administration again controlled the White House.

In brief and to sum up, an Obama presidency will yield us a bounty of delicious 180-degree reversals, hanging contradictions, forehead-smacking discontinuities, and flaming self-pwnages from our wingnut pals, as their entire political edifice turns heliotropically to face the warming light of the new Hated Thing. Their doings of the past eight years will seem, to them although not to ourselves, like fragments from a dream. They will charge the George W. Bush presidency with a Reaganlike aura of indistinct, dumb uplift and nonspecific moral rectitude. And they will struggle to recapture those great days of America, always so intrinsic but so sadly vanished, held always and each time just out of their grasp.


This topic deserves its own thread, but I'm always struck by the seemingly limitless capacity of our right wing friends to banish from their minds the vast discontinuities of ideology that are required to follow them down the rabbit hole of the last eight years, while simultaneously accusing "liberals" of being inconsistent.

Liberal inconsistency is to the right wing whip-saw whirlygig as the fan on my desk is to Katrina. As befits an ideology which has decided that objective reality is a dreadful existential threat to sanity.

[midwinter]

I just can't wait for the claims that Obama had better be careful visiting X....

[FloorJack]

What?

I'll make it clear. If McCain wins you guys can muster up tons of fake anger (or feel real anger over a minor issue) and try to get VP Palin impeached for an alleged infraction of Alaska's ethics rules. If not then you can go back to ignoring something that you don't actually care about. Because after all before Palin was nominated no one cared that she might have violated some ethics rules.


I don't know why you guys are trying to Bork her anyway. If she's as bad as you guys say she is why try to get McCain to replace her with someone better? Strategically shouldn't she stay on the ticket and take McCain down with her?

[groverat]

Why would Palin be impeached for something she did in Alaska?
Your message is incoherent, much like the message of our darling Sarah Palin.

Because after all before Palin was nominated no one cared that she might have violated some ethics rules.

A lot of people cared, that's why they started an investigation.

If you meant to say "no one outside of Alaska cared" then that's because no one knew she was going to potentially be a heartbeat away from being the president of the entire nation.

I don't know why you guys are trying to Bork her anyway. If she's as bad as you guys say she is why try to get McCain to replace her with someone better? Strategically shouldn't she stay on the ticket and take McCain down with her?

Because she's terrible and her being president would be a terrible thing for the nation. I don't want her to be in the national executive because she's amateurish, corrupt, and incompetent.

[addabox]

I'll make it clear. If McCain wins you guys can muster up tons of fake anger (or feel real anger over a minor issue) and try to get VP Palin impeached for an alleged infraction of Alaska's ethics rules. If not then you can go back to ignoring something that you don't actually care about. Because after all before Palin was nominated no one cared that she might have violated some ethics rules.


I don't know why you guys are trying to Bork her anyway. If she's as bad as you guys say she is why try to get McCain to replace her with someone better? Strategically shouldn't she stay on the ticket and take McCain down with her?

Some people actually care about governance, beyond gamesmanship and strategy. Palin is McCain's running mate. If McCain wins, she'll be vice-president.

Given the depredations of the Cheney vice-presidency, Palin's apparent eagerness to further explore certain outré theories concerning the latitude of action afforeded the office, and her track record of using public power for petty, private vengeance, some people might reasonably conclude that she would be bad for the country.

You're familiar with the concept, yes?

I am delighted, however, with the notion that, because we were not overly concerned with what Sarah Palin was doing up there in Alaska, before McCain plucked her from obscurity, our current concerns are somehow trumped up.

I suppose the proper rejoinder would be "Where were the paranoid fantasies about the provenance of Obama's birth certificate, before he ran for president?"

This if fun. From now on, we must all scour the countryside for potential candidates for national office, let's say from age 18 on, so as to get an early start on being outraged. Otherwise, you know, just so much posturing.

[midwinter]

an alleged infraction of Alaska's ethics rules.

It's not an alleged infraction. The commission appointed by the AK legislature to investigate the allegations has found that she did violate the ethics rule.

[addabox]

I just can't wait for the claims that Obama had better be careful visiting X....

What's startling is how normalized this idea is. A good chunk of the country is in the "Yeah, that sucks, of course, but the guy's a sinister foreigner with an opaque agenda who hates our way of life, so it's not that surprising that a patriot or two might have a go at him, not that I approve of that, mind you" camp.

I truly hope that the real problems facing the country will focus our attention sufficiently that the black helicopter people will return to their heavily fortified redoubts and go back to scaring each other with obscure web sites and lurid fantasies.

Which is to say, I hope the the Republican Party will come to regard these people as something other than part of "the base."

Not that I'm holding my breath, or anything.

[midwinter]

What's startling is how normalized this idea is. A good chunk of the country is in the "Yeah, that sucks, of course, but the guy's a sinister foreigner with an opaque agenda who hates our way of life, so it's not that surprising that a patriot or two might have a go at him, not that I approve of that, mind you" camp.

I truly hope that the real problems facing the country will focus our attention sufficiently that the black helicopter people will return to their heavily fortified redoubts and go back to scaring each other with obscure web sites and lurid fantasies.

Which is to say, I hope the the Republican Party will come to regard these people as something other than part of "the base."

Not that I'm holding my breath, or anything.

This is where Scott's comment about "fake outrage" is so revealing. The problem is that lots of people in the GOP base don't get that the outrage of the GOP talking heads is fake, and so they think "Well, I guess I'd better go buy a gun and shoot me a liberal."

[hardeeharhar]

It's not an alleged infraction. The commission appointed by the AK legislature to investigate the allegations has found that she did violate the ethics rule.
Psh. Let's not let facts get in the way of Truth(tm).

[midwinter]

Psh. Let's not let facts get in the way of Truth(tm).

Palin said she was "pleased to be cleared of any legal wrongdoing ... any hint of any kind of unethical activity there." She denounced the investigation, calling it "a partisan circus." (link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/12/palin_talks_to_alaska_reporter.html))

Truly, this is bizarro world. I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than page 8 of the report:

"I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39. 52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act."

Finding two, which is the one the right is focusing on, even goes so far as to say that even though she could legally fire Monegan for pretty much any reason, it was clearly connected to the Wooten piece.

[addabox]

Palin said she was "pleased to be cleared of any legal wrongdoing ... any hint of any kind of unethical activity there." She denounced the investigation, calling it "a partisan circus." (link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/12/palin_talks_to_alaska_reporter.html))

Truly, this is bizarro world. I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than page 8 of the report:

"I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39. 52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act."

Finding two, which is the one the right is focusing on, even goes so far as to say that even though she could legally fire Monegan for pretty much any reason, it was clearly connected to the Wooten piece.

I'm assuming that, going forward, Republican public speaking is going to start to look more and more like one long Monty Python routine:


Republican: "Sharing the stage with me tonight is a man who has supported our cause for many years."

Man: "What are you talking about? I hate you. I'm only here because someone said there would be shrimp cocktails."

Republican: "Thank you, thank you very much for those kind words." (Crowd cheers, begins to chant "Shrimp Cock-tail! Shrimp Cock-tail!"

[midwinter]

Shrimp, baby, shrimp! Shrimp, baby, shrimp!

Or maybe

Shrimp, baby shrimp!

Or maybe

shrimp baby, shrimp!

[SpamSandwich]

Republicans AND Democrats have no more answers that work for America. Sure, she abused the powers of her office. Name me nearly any politician who has not. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Oddly enough, this old saw applies to all parties.

[addabox]

I heard Obama was a cephalopod! Boooooooooooooooo!!!!!! Tentacles suck!

[addabox]

Republicans AND Democrats have no more answers that work for America. Sure, she abused the powers of her office. Name me nearly any politician who has not. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Oddly enough, this old saw applies to all parties.

Explain to me, precisely, how Obama has abused his office to punish an enemy of his family.

[midwinter]

Republicans AND Democrats have no more answers that work for America. Sure, she abused the powers of her office. Name me nearly any politician who has not. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Oddly enough, this old saw applies to all parties.

That is a patently ridiculous statement.

[SpamSandwich]

Explain to me, precisely, how Obama has abused his office to punish an enemy of his family.

Your statement is a logical leap, but an incorrect one.

[addabox]

Your statement is a logical leap, but an incorrect one.

I have no idea what that means.

Any conversation about abuse of power has to take note of the particulars, just as a conversation about "crime" would be meaningless if we refused to make distinctions between murder and shoplifting.

If Sarah Palin's abuse of power is unremarkable due to abuse of power being the standard, among "all politicians", then I can only ask for examples of a given politician abusing his power in that particular way.

Otherwise we're just making noises.

[gastroboy]

I have no idea what that means.

Any conversation about abuse of power has to take note of the particulars, just as a conversation about "crime" would be meaningless if we refused to make distinctions between murder and shoplifting.

If Sarah Palin's abuse of power is unremarkable due to abuse of power being the standard, among "all politicians", then I can only ask for examples of a given politician abusing his power in that particular way.

Otherwise we're just making noises.

It is a sweeping dismissal that avoids a real debate on the issues. Given damning evidence against a patently false premise the only response is ignoring it. If you don't look, it just isn't there.

SpamSandwich uses this whenever myth meets reality.

The total debate really is around 2 world views.

Those who are so steeped in the myth, doctrine and rhetoric that has got us where we are today they can not let go.

Those who are looking at what is actually happening, are appalled and want change.

In other words the believers and non-believers.

For the believers there is the Word and everything fits the Word. The non-believers want more than just words, which by all measures are just lies. The believers work hard at adjusting reality to fit and shouting down or censoring critical voices. They are a part of all societies, but most visible in the extreme non-democratic regimes such as the Communists, Nazis, Baathists, the racist American South and Apartheid regimes and aristocracies of all descriptions. They represent the selfish conformists willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to their own ends.

If there is any legacy of this low point in American history it is the motormouth dumbformation media that has supported them and in all likelihood will ensure they will revisit us again.

I make a prediction here and now that Obama will win this election. There will be at least one if not more attempts on his life, hopefully unsuccessful, and the righteous right will put all their efforts into prosecuting him for some minor hypocritical "moral" issue for his entire term in office.

[SpamSandwich]

It is a sweeping dismissal that avoids a real debate on the issues. Given damning evidence against a patently false premise the only response is ignoring it. If you don't look, it just isn't there.

SpamSandwich uses this whenever myth meets reality.

The total debate really is around 2 world views.

Those who are so steeped in the myth, doctrine and rhetoric that has got us where we are today they can not let go.

Those who are looking at what is actually happening, are appalled and want change.

In other words the believers and non-believers.

For the believers there is the Word and everything fits the Word. The non-believers want more than just words, which by all measures are just lies. The believers work hard at adjusting reality to fit and shouting down or censoring critical voices. They are a part of all societies, but most visible in the extreme non-democratic regimes such as the Communists, Nazis, Baathists, the racist American South and Apartheid regimes and aristocracies of all descriptions. They represent the selfish conformists willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to their own ends.

If there is any legacy of this low point in American history it is the motormouth dumbformation media that has supported them and in all likelihood will ensure they will revisit us again.

I make a prediction here and now that Obama will win this election. There will be at least one if not more attempts on his life, hopefully unsuccessful, and the righteous right will put all their efforts into prosecuting him for some minor hypocritical "moral" issue for his entire term in office.

It seems you are making broad brush statements about me originating from some alternate reality.

Which political perspective are you under the misimpression I come from? Looks to me that you think I'm a dyed-in-wool neo-conservative Republican... is this what you think? If so, it's a bizarre conclusion. I can only assume you have not been paying attention to anything I've said over the years here, or you are claiming to know more that you do.

Regardless, you are gravely misinformed.

[jimmac]

I'll make it clear. If McCain wins you guys can muster up tons of fake anger (or feel real anger over a minor issue) and try to get VP Palin impeached for an alleged infraction of Alaska's ethics rules. If not then you can go back to ignoring something that you don't actually care about. Because after all before Palin was nominated no one cared that she might have violated some ethics rules.


I don't know why you guys are trying to Bork her anyway. If she's as bad as you guys say she is why try to get McCain to replace her with someone better? Strategically shouldn't she stay on the ticket and take McCain down with her?

It's quite simple. You see McCain won't win.

[SDW2001]

Basically I agree with you, but I think that you should be prepared for the following argument: Bush was to liberal. He was NOT a true Republican. If he had implemented TRUE Republican principles that were not watered down with Democratic sabotage from Congress everything now would be Goodness and Light(TM).

Anything can and will be spun to the effect that We were right and They were wrong. Logic can be suspended.

Are you claiming Bush has governed as a conservative? Other than tax cuts, he's been a huge spending big government type. It's not conservatism that has been the problem with his administration.

[midwinter]

Are you claiming Bush has governed as a conservative? Other than tax cuts, he's been a huge spending big government type. It's not conservatism that has been the problem with his administration.

You have said many times that you have said many times what you specifically disagree with about Bush. Are we going to finally get that list? Are you finally going to throw Bush under the bus?

I say that even though I'm intrigued by the argument that Bush has spent the last couple of years trying to roll back the disastrous policies he enacted.

[SDW2001]

Put a fork in her. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_el_pr/palin_troopergate)

She's done.



The 12-person panel featured 8 Republicans and 4 Democrats.

Sarah Palin has been found, by a panel of her fellow Republicans, to be guilty of abusing her power as Alaska's governor and violating Alaska's ethics codes.

This is the woman John McCain has told the American people is ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. This is his #2. This was his choice, out of all the available candidates.

What is there to say about it? It's embarrassing for them, and it's clear why they have been so focused on the politics of hate and fear. They are a nightmare of leadership incompetence.

Right. The All-Knowing and Non-Partisan (Super Non Partisan!) board found her GUILTY! There was no way the report was rushed to damage her before the election. She has no political enemies within the GOP in Alaska.

And the headline of the article wasn't "Ethics probe hits hardest at Todd, not Sarah Palin"


And the article doesn't say any of this:

The legislative probe began as an investigation into whether Palin improperly fired Monegan for resisting efforts to fire Wooten. The report concluded that Monegan's firing was legal, because Palin had the right to choose her top administrators, but that the pressure Palin and her husband exerted to try to get Wooten fired was improper.

Democratic state Sen. Hollis French drew heavy criticism for saying the investigation could provide an "October surprise" for the McCain campaign.

Though the committee's report reached some stinging conclusions, it was largely toothless. The Legislature has no authority to sanction Palin for ethical misconduct. That's up to the state Personnel Board, which is running a parallel investigation that Palin is cooperating with.

Who is living is bizarro world? (note to any potential Forum Police---this is not a personal attack on groverat).

In any case, my prediction is this will have zero impact. It won't hurt McCain. He may still lose, but it won't be because of this.

[addabox]

He may still lose....

Ya think?

[SDW2001]

Ya think?

I wouldn't count the chickens yet.

[midwinter]

Ya think?

Hehe.

And, as if on cue, right as I predicted (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1321214&postcount=46), here's SDW.

[SDW2001]

Hehe.

And, as if on cue, right as I predicted (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1321214&postcount=46), here's SDW.

mid...

Are you actually claiming that this was not timed to damage her politically?

Are you further claiming that the investigation was not at all politically motivated?

But regardless, I still don't think this damages McCain. It won't be much of a factor.

[hardeeharhar]

mid...

Are you actually claiming that this was not timed to damage her politically?

Are you further claiming that the investigation was not at all politically motivated?

But regardless, I still don't think this damages McCain. It won't be much of a factor.
SDW, look back at the history of the investigation.

Look at when the report was supposed to be released, look at when it was released.

Look at who created the investigation, look at who decided to release the investigation.

Look at what the investigation further says about the least popular primary of this election.

I don't think it is the economy pulling McCain down. I think it is Palin.

McCain's random response to the economic situation certainly doesn't help (did you see the mis-fire today with Graham?) but if this didn't coincide with a growing displeasure with Palin a representative of a new, less legitimate, less distinct McCain, his numbers wouldn't be nearly as bad.

The pundits have this wrong.

[SDW2001]

You have said many times that you have said many times what you specifically disagree with about Bush. Are we going to finally get that list? Are you finally going to throw Bush under the bus?

I've done so many times, but hold on a sec...

I say that even though I'm intrigued by the argument that Bush has spent the last couple of years trying to roll back the disastrous policies he enacted.

Please explain which policies are responsible for which results. I can't wait.

Now, back to #1. I can't sleep (Claritin-D is the shit!), so here goes....

1. Bush has allowed spending to get out of control.

2. Bush's second term has seen little in terms of legislative accomplishments in general.

3. Iraq was managed badly for several years.

4. We didn't have enough troops at the outset of of the Iraq War.

5. Bush was slow to change course in securing Iraq.

6. Bush should have invoked the Insurrection Act and sent active duty military to New Orelans during Katrina's aftermath.

7. The No Child Left Behind Act

No exceptions for special ed.
Penalizes whole school/district for performance of certain disaggregate groups
Unrealistc achievment targets
Huge variance in state-by-state testing standards


8. Not enough focus on obtaining alternative and traditional energy supplies/reliance on foreign oil.

That's off the top of my head at 2:27 a.m. Fair enough?

[addabox]

I wouldn't count the chickens yet.

I will happily count those chickens, snap their necks, strip their feathers and fry 'em up.

I realize that some voters live in an alternative universe wherein the explosive news that Obama is a Manchurian terror cell sleeper agent foreign born radical terror loving criminal is going to break through any time now. Some voters are pig ignorant and, thankfully, in the minority.

[hardeeharhar]

I will happily count those chickens, snap their necks, strip their feathers and fry 'em up.

I realize that some voters live in an alternative universe wherein the explosive news that Obama is a Manchurian terror cell sleeper agent foreign born radical terror loving criminal is going to break through any time now. Some voters are pig ignorant and, thankfully, in the minority.
I harbor no illusions about the fact that Obama could still lose this thing. There is still a, let's say, 25% chance for the demographics will favor McCain on election day. Historically, sure, it's unlikely, but not since the morons of this nation put Bush into office, not once, but twice, you cannot depend upon anything as a given.

[pfflam]

I'll make it clear. If McCain wins you guys can muster up tons of fake anger (or feel real anger over a minor issue) You mean like Whitewater? If not then you can go back to ignoring something that you don't actually care about. Because after all before Palin was nominated no one cared that she might have violated some ethics rules.
Um . . . Alaska?!?

You know, that state next to Russia with a population less than one 5th as big as Pittsburgh Pennsylvania.


I don't know why you guys are trying to Bork her anyway. If she's as bad as you guys say she is why try to get McCain to replace her with someone better? Strategically shouldn't she stay on the ticket and take McCain down with her?She's that bad, its pretty clear that she is, but you wingnuts need to be hit on the head to see the floor . . jack!
and with the Right-Media as strong as it is, ther is lot of people who need it spelled out . . .
and judging by the youtube vids at McPalin events . . . maybe they need read-out-loud

[pfflam]

This is where Scott's comment about "fake outrage" is so revealing. The problem is that lots of people in the GOP base don't get that the outrage of the GOP talking heads is fake, and so they think "Well, I guess I'd better go buy a gun and shoot me a liberal."

I wasn't around AI when the Universalist church was hit with a gunman, but it seems relevant to remind folks about how this incessant onslought of Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Rielly hatrefest that we have had for over a decade has translated into real murder: remember that fellow's bookshelf. I remember not being surprised one bit when the titles were read on the news.

[pfflam]

mid...

Are you actually claiming that this was not timed to damage her politically?

Are you further claiming that the investigation was not at all politically motivated?

But regardless, I still don't think this damages McCain. It won't be much of a factor.

If it is the case that this is"political", then perhaps you could imagine that "politics' might be of this sort:
AK Republicans have seen her at work, they know her and what she is about and they emphatically don't want her to be leading this country anywhere.

Perhaps some Republicans actually care about the country more than they care about party allegience games?!

[jimmac]

I wouldn't count the chickens yet.


We shouldn't be complacent but SDW they're already in the fryer.;)

[Bergermeister]

I harbor no illusions about the fact that Obama could still lose this thing. There is still a, let's say, 25% chance for the demographics will favor McCain on election day. Historically, sure, it's unlikely, but not since the morons of this nation put Bush into office, not once, but twice, you cannot depend upon anything as a given.

The guys over here (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/) say Obama's chance of winning are 92.8%, McCain's 6.8%.

Start the oven.

[Akumulator]

I wasn't around AI when the Universalist church was hit with a gunman, but it seems relevant to remind folks about how this incessant onslought of Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Rielly hatrefest that we have had for over a decade has translated into real murder: remember that fellow's bookshelf. I remember not being surprised one bit when the titles were read on the news.

Yep. It's a dangerous thing. Watch this if you haven't yet....

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09122008/watch.html

[vinea]

Please explain which policies are responsible for which results. I can't wait.

Now, back to #1. I can't sleep (Claritin-D is the shit!), so here goes....

1. Bush has allowed spending to get out of control.


Because of a war that drove the economy down reducing revenues. In any case, we fiscally conservative but socially moderate republicans have largely been driven into the margins by our Christian right bretheren.

Frankly the base doesn't give a shit about spending. Just that they get tax cuts and a pro-life candidate that will put God back in charge of the government.


2. Bush's second term has seen little in terms of legislative accomplishments in general.

3. Iraq was managed badly for several years.


A war that never should have been started in the first place.


4. We didn't have enough troops at the outset of of the Iraq War.


A point I recall you vehemently argued against for a long assed time.


5. Bush was slow to change course in securing Iraq.


I'm curious how his being inept at war is non-conservative behavior?


6. Bush should have invoked the Insurrection Act and sent active duty military to New Orelans during Katrina's aftermath.


Gee, you know if all our national guard units weren't freaking overseas we wouldn't have to do that right?


8. Not enough focus on obtaining alternative and traditional energy supplies/reliance on foreign oil.


This has largely been a LIBERAL agenda lately taken up by our side. I recall being told I was being stupid by fellow republicans a few years ago when gas was cheap for talking about conservation being a major part of national security. SUV is a God given right you know and you must be a commie pinko moron to talk about not sending money to the middle east.

That's off the top of my head at 2:27 a.m. Fair enough?

Not really.

[addabox]

I think SDW is telling us he's mad at the Bush administration for not being what a Gore administration would have been.

[BRussell]

mid...

Are you actually claiming that this was not timed to damage her politically?

Are you further claiming that the investigation was not at all politically motivated?

But regardless, I still don't think this damages McCain. It won't be much of a factor.

I will claim those things. Everything that's happened has been bipartisan (actually, majority Republican) and unanimous. The report was originally to be released a few days before the election - the date was set prior to Palin being the veep candidate - but changed in order to avoid that date.

[SDW2001]

I will happily count those chickens, snap their necks, strip their feathers and fry 'em up.

I realize that some voters live in an alternative universe wherein the explosive news that Obama is a Manchurian terror cell sleeper agent foreign born radical terror loving criminal is going to break through any time now. Some voters are pig ignorant and, thankfully, in the minority.

I'm just looking at the polls. It's not like he's 15 points ahead.

I harbor no illusions about the fact that Obama could still lose this thing. There is still a, let's say, 25% chance for the demographics will favor McCain on election day. Historically, sure, it's unlikely, but not since the morons of this nation put Bush into office, not once, but twice, you cannot depend upon anything as a given.

Uh...historically? What do you mean...where the polls are at this date compared with other elections?



If it is the case that this is"political", then perhaps you could imagine that "politics' might be of this sort:
AK Republicans have seen her at work, they know her and what she is about and they emphatically don't want her to be leading this country anywhere.

Perhaps some Republicans actually care about the country more than they care about party allegience games?!

Yes, and she's fooled 86% of the population of Alaska too. I see.

Because of a war that drove the economy down reducing revenues. In any case, we fiscally conservative but socially moderate republicans have largely been driven into the margins by our Christian right bretheren.

The war did not drive down the economy. Revenues did not go down. Both statements you made are categorically false.



Frankly the base doesn't give a shit about spending. Just that they get tax cuts and a pro-life candidate that will put God back in charge of the government.

That depends on who "the base" is. I think true conservatives (fiscal) care a lot. Bush ran as a fiscal conservative, but hasn't governed like one.



A war that never should have been started in the first place.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think it was the right move at the time. Either way, that's not the issue. What's done is done.



A point I recall you vehemently argued against for a long assed time.

That's a total of three false statements. I've been saying we needed more troops for years.



I'm curious how his being inept at war is non-conservative behavior?

Good point. I was just pointing out my disagreements in general.



Gee, you know if all our national guard units weren't freaking overseas we wouldn't have to do that right?

That's not necessarily true. Possible, but not really a provable assertion. It doesn't matter anyway, because things "were the way they were." The Admin should have sent active duty troops.



This has largely been a LIBERAL agenda lately taken up by our side. I recall being told I was being stupid by fellow republicans a few years ago when gas was cheap for talking about conservation being a major part of national security. SUV is a God given right you know and you must be a commie pinko moron to talk about not sending money to the middle east.

Conservation is not a major part of national security. Conservation is next to useless, actually. If we plan to live in the modern world, energy consumption is going to go up. Period. If you mean making sensible choices to save energy, then fine. But I don't think that's what you mean.


Not really.

Wasn't directed at you anyway, so have a nice day.

I will claim those things. Everything that's happened has been bipartisan (actually, majority Republican) and unanimous. The report was originally to be released a few days before the election - the date was set prior to Palin being the veep candidate - but changed in order to avoid that date.

Please demonstrate that and demonstrate why the date was changed.

[addabox]

A bipartisan investigation, dominated by Republicans, started well before Palin was ever tapped for the vice-presidency, and the results of which are released on a new day designed to decrease its impact on the election.

But, it's still a partisan witch-hunt timed to hurt Palin. Amazing.

BTW, SDW, does it bother you at all that the report paints a devastating picture of Todd Palin as a vindictive lunatic that stalked trooper Wooten (at one point following 100 miles off-road to see if he could get some pictures of an outing that might hurt his workers comp claim) and who was given access to trooper Wooten's personal files and workmen's comp claims?

Does that strike you as a trivial lapse of ethics? Would be be as sanguine if Michelle Obama had done anything remotely like that?

Or would it strike you as a terrifying example of "Chicago style" bare knuckled thuggery?

[addabox]

Please demonstrate that and demonstrate why the date was changed.

Good God amighty.

Are you asking us to "demonstrate" that the proceedings in Alaska have been bipartisan or that the legislative investigatory committee is majority Republican?

Have you already forgotten all the cries of "partisan stunt!" that greeted the news that the report was coming out a few days before the election? And how backing up the release date was in direct response to those claims?

Are you unaware that, by constricting the time frame, the committee was unable to depose some of those witnesses that refused to testify until the Alaskan Supreme Court compelled them to do so? And that the subsequent report was likely less damaging?

I demand that you demonstrate that Alaska is adjacent to Canada.

[jamac]

Stupid Demented Weirdos for McCain!!!

I am stupid therefore I vote Republican. (loosely after Sartre)

Perverted
Ass
Loonatic
Imbecil
Nutcase

[lundy]

**poof**

[midwinter]

**poof**

You know what's funny? It should be Descartes!

[SpamSandwich]

The guys over here (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/) say Obama's chance of winning are 92.8%, McCain's 6.8%.

Start the oven.

Hasn't this site been accurate about the past two presidential elections? Looks like they're likely right again... but CNN and Fox will continue to spin, spin, spin making it sound like both candidates are running a "tight race".

[BRussell]

You know what's funny? It should be Descartes!

You'd probably ban him on that error alone.

[Flounder]

Hasn't this site been accurate about the past two presidential elections? Looks like they're likely right again... but CNN and Fox will continue to spin, spin, spin making it sound like both candidates are running a "tight race".

I think you may be confused with somewhere else. To my knowledge, fivethirtyeight is less than a year old.

[Bergermeister]

Please demonstrate that and demonstrate why the date was changed.


Some background info is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Public_Safety_Commissioner_dismissal

Even better might be here (in reverse chronological order):
http://www.adn.com/troopergate/

http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/482003.html

http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492077.html

Don't have time this morning to link to everything along the timeline that has been in the public record since well before McCain chose Palin.

A little research will turn up everything.

[@_@ Artman]

[Palin] she's the ultimate irony - a pin-up girl for people who don't believe in masturbating (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O2N71sJTR0). ~ Dana Gould, writer for the Simpsons

:lol:

Wait for it. the whole discussion is worth it. :smokey:

SDW = Steve Moore?

[jimmac]

:lol:

Wait for it. the whole discussion is worth it. :smokey:

SDW = Steve Moore?

Good to see you back!

[jimmac]

Are you claiming Bush has governed as a conservative? Other than tax cuts, he's been a huge spending big government type. It's not conservatism that has been the problem with his administration.

No it's the fact that he's been out for himself. Even when it concerns his own party.

A reason to not elect McCain who seems much the same.;)

[SpamSandwich]

I think you may be confused with somewhere else. To my knowledge, fivethirtyeight is less than a year old.

I think I remember what it was now... the site's owner has been very accurate at predicting winners of baseball games using his statistics knowledge.

[SpamSandwich]

:lol:

Wait for it. the whole discussion is worth it. :smokey:

SDW = Steve Moore?

Artie, you've been unbanished!

[Bergermeister]

Talk of impeachment has begun:

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/tundra-talk/1-talk-of-the-tundra/217-palin-may-be-smiling-now-but-shes-not-in-the-clear-yet-she-could-be-impeached.html

---

Camp McCain's spokeswoman in Alaska gets into a street fight with an Alaskan representative.


Wow.

http://shannynmoore.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/the-oscar-goes-to-meg-stapletonthe-medal-of-bravery-les-gara/

[midwinter]

Talk of impeachment has begun:

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/tundra-talk/1-talk-of-the-tundra/217-palin-may-be-smiling-now-but-shes-not-in-the-clear-yet-she-could-be-impeached.html

I doubt very seriously that she'll be impeached. But given how much she pissed off the GOP establishment in AK, you never know—especially considering that, now, she's been campaigning about how much she pissed them off.

[addabox]

I doubt very seriously that she'll be impeached. But given how much she pissed off the GOP establishment in AK, you never know—especially considering that, now, she's been campaigning about how much she pissed them off.

I've read that the fiercely independent Alaskans are pretty pissed off that the McCain campaign basically took over the governor's office and have been all but running the state.

Plus, they can see the character she's playing on the national stage is completely inauthentic, and that's not going over too well.

Do Alaskans do recalls?

[midwinter]

Do Alaskans do recalls?

Ask Darryl Issa!

ba dum dum.

[Flounder]

I think I remember what it was now... the site's owner has been very accurate at predicting winners of baseball games using his statistics knowledge.


Indeed. He predicted the Rays making the playoffs this year.

[Flounder]

Apparently the threads Trumpt started are gone to, so I'll put it in this Palin thread:

She still doesn't understand the limits on what the vice president does (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/21/palin-vp-senate/)

[Bergermeister]

It is absolutely frightening that she still has any supporters.

She could start by reading Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States#Role_of_the_Vi ce_President

[@_@ Artman]

Joe Biden said it to her fucking face at the debates (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/). :mad:

BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.

The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.

[groverat]

Apparently the threads Trumpt started are gone to, so I'll put it in this Palin thread:

She still doesn't understand the limits on what the vice president does (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/21/palin-vp-senate/)

I'd love to say to her, "You are a stupid woman and I do not like that you want power in my nation, you stupid stupid woman."

[Bergermeister]

Without the "Why do they hate her?" I guess this is the best place for this.

After all the moaning and complaining and babbling about elites, real Americans blah blah blah and how down to Earth and Joe six pack and everything else Palin is,

RNC shells out $150K for Palin fashion http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14805.html

In a month. Put in simple terms, that is three times the average household's yearly income. Huffington's article says Palin spent more on clothes in one month than the average American J6P family does in 80 years.
Saks Fifth Avenue $50,000
Neiman Marcus $75,000

How much did Michelle's outfit during the convention cost? How much was Cindy's? Boy, them Democrats sure are acting like elitists!

And there's this part:
"The cash expenditures immediately raised questions among campaign finance experts about their legality under the Federal Election Commission's long-standing advisory opinions on using campaign cash to purchase items for personal use." To which Camp McCain responded rather predictably: isn't there anything more important to talk about, and the clothes were to go to charity after the election.

Right.

Wonder what Joe the Plumber will have to say...

[Gilsch]

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/logix2112/slide_460_11033_large.jpg

:lol:

Come on. Who here hasn't blown $150k on clothes in a month?

[gastroboy]

Wonder what Joe the Plumber will have to say...

He'll be wanting to try on Sarah's "things" when he's cleaning out the drains, so it will have been money well spent (in the usual Republican "small government" way).

What doesn't fit Joe, will go to "our brave boys in Iraq".

[Bergermeister]

If elected, McCain has promised to veto all pork.

He could have shown the truth behind that promise...

[gastroboy]

If elected, McCain has promised to veto all pork.

He could have shown the truth behind that promise...

"You don't eat pork, we don't eat pork, why not just not eat pork together"

The Middle Eastern Anthem by Tim Minchin.

[screener]

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/logix2112/slide_460_11033_large.jpg

:lol:

Come on. Who here hasn't blown $150k on clothes in a month?
What a couple of jerk-offs, oh, gross man, get a room.

[@_@ Artman]

What a couple of jerk-offs, oh, gross man, get a room.

Or get the porno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYRGjjvNoZ4). :smokey:

sfw

[FormerLurker]

Or get the porno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYRGjjvNoZ4). :smokey:

sfw

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Larry Flynt Publications"



:lol:

[@_@ Artman]

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Larry Flynt Publications" :lol:

Oops sorry about that. I only had seen it once and that was enough. Here's an article and photo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/03/nailin-paylin-hustlers-pa_n_131581.html) on the Huffington Post.

[franksargent]

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/logix2112/slide_460_11033_large.jpg

:lol:

Come on. Who here hasn't blown $150k on clothes in a month?

Those two wankers weren't arrested for exposing their private parts to Palin?

Also, has anyone sighted Palin in a pantsuit since her nomination?

[franksargent]

http://www.topcosales.us/_images/products/0231-7_lg.jpg