Race card, En-gage!

[SDW2001]

Shake and Bake!


Republicans want slavery. (http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/877049.html)

McCain is stoking racial hatred.
(http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93OQ2SO0.html)

Even Castro is in on the act! (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93ON3T00.html)

You see, the only way Obama can lose is if we racists vote against him...because he's BLACK!

Of course the NYT is playing its role too. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13race.html?ref=us)

International media thinks so. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/12/uselections2008-barackobama)

Did I mention that he's black? The race card is now being deployed at every turn.

[hardeeharhar]

Shake and Bake!


Republicans want slavery. (http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/877049.html)

McCain is stoking racial hatred.
(http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93OQ2SO0.html)

Even Castro is in on the act! (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93ON3T00.html)

You see, the only way Obama can lose is if we racists vote against him...because he's BLACK!

Of course the NYT is playing its role too. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13race.html?ref=us)

International media thinks so. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/12/uselections2008-barackobama)

Did I mention that he's black? The race card is now being deployed at every turn.
Um, ok.

Content, ever?

[addabox]

Ah, the race card. So very, very much worse than racism.

I suppose if anyone takes a shot at Obama we can worry about "the assassination card."

[hardeeharhar]

There is a racial subtext here, SDW.

Look at how ingrained the belief that Obama is a muslim/arab (which he is categorically NOT) in McCain's supporters. This wouldn't even be an issue if Obama was white with a similar name. It is his race driving this perception and this perception driving people's votes. Go to free republic at some point and tell me that the racial hostility among mccain's diehard conservative supporters isn't bubbling over...

What people wish to ignore does not qualify it as non-existent.

[Harald]

SDW -- could you enlighten us how Obama reminding everyone he's black would win him votes? In the USA?

[pfflam]

Shake and Bake!


Republicans want slavery. (http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/877049.html)

McCain is stoking racial hatred.
(http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93OQ2SO0.html)

Even Castro is in on the act! (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081012/D93ON3T00.html)

You see, the only way Obama can lose is if we racists vote against him...because he's BLACK!

Of course the NYT is playing its role too. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13race.html?ref=us)

International media thinks so. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/12/uselections2008-barackobama)

Did I mention that he's black? The race card is now being deployed at every turn.
I'm Outraged!!!





.
[I've always wanted to do that . . since it was the stock rebuttal of wingers for years]

[gastroboy]

A friend of my father's has long phone discussions with her rels in Milwaulkee about US politics. They are all died in the wool Republicans and support the Moral Majority. They have made no two ways about it, they are scared shitless of a black man becoming president.

It is not even like they have a guilty conscience, being all Yugoslav migrants after WWII. Black people just frighten them.

The only chink in the armour is that one of the 3 husbands is having a change of mind since the financial meltdown and is very reluctantly looking like he might switch to the "Darkside".

[gastroboy]

Republicans want slavery. (http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/877049.html)



Anyone know the whereabouts of Lipstick on a Moose at the time?

[SDW2001]

Ah, the race card. So very, very much worse than racism.

I actually think it is. It has the effect of negating the impact of real racism, which does exist. It creates a "boy who cried wolf" effect, if you will.



I suppose if anyone takes a shot at Obama we can worry about "the assassination card."

Beyond the "low blow" factor of that statement, it implies that there has been significant racism directed at Obama. Obviously you're going to have crazies on all sides of issues. But race has only been used by one campaign--Obama's.

There is a racial subtext here, SDW.

Yes, and it's been inserted by Obama.



Look at how ingrained the belief that Obama is a muslim/arab (which he is categorically NOT) in McCain's supporters. This wouldn't even be an issue if Obama was white with a similar name. It is his race driving this perception and this perception driving people's votes. Go to free republic at some point and tell me that the racial hostility among mccain's diehard conservative supporters isn't bubbling over...

What people wish to ignore does not qualify it as non-existent.

I encourage you to post some---I don't know---evidence? Sure, I bet you can find a few extreme beyond-crazy wingers who post racist things, but I can find just as much if not more evidence of outright sexism on the other side.

And I didn't say racism is non-existent. It does exist in this campaign and in general. That said, McCain's campaign is not using race...period.

SDW -- could you enlighten us how Obama reminding everyone he's black would win him votes? In the USA?

Why would he say it then...to LOSE votes? He said it to play the race card, of course. He said it to take advantage of white elitist liberal guilt, and to paint his opponents as racist--all his opponents. I thought that was fairly obvious, even to those who think his opponents are racist.


A friend of my father's has long phone discussions with her rels in Milwaulkee about US politics. They are all died in the wool Republicans and support the Moral Majority. They have made no two ways about it, they are scared shitless of a black man becoming president.

It is not even like they have a guilty conscience, being all Yugoslav migrants after WWII. Black people just frighten them.

The only chink in the armour is that one of the 3 husbands is having a change of mind since the financial meltdown and is very reluctantly looking like he might switch to the "Darkside".

I personally love vague, unsubstantiated and useless anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters on the internet. Bravo.

[Harald]

SDW, this is just fucking unbelievable.

America had slavery. These attitudes colour the makeup of the United States to this day. The McCain strategy has riled up the base so much your man has to tell people to chill out at rallies (which gets him booed).

But when people report on this, and say race could affect the result, this is Obama playing the race card.

Oh, and I'd rhetorically ask which of the links you posted were quotes from Obama, or even surrogates, but instead I'll tell you. None of them. Not one.

I LOVE THIS PANIC IN THE GOP.

I FUCKING LOVE IT.

It's making my *year.*

[gastroboy]

I personally love vague, unsubstantiated and useless anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters on the internet. Bravo.

The ONE thing that we non-Americans find so gob-smacking amazing is just how out of touch Americans are with their own reality.

[gastroboy]

Beyond the "low blow" factor of that statement, it implies that there has been significant racism directed at Obama. Obviously you're going to have crazies on all sides of issues. But race has only been used by one campaign--Obama's.

Please point out to me anyone on the Democrat side who has suggested that McCain should be killed?

It is such a natural part of the thinking of the Neo-Cons and Republicans to vote with a gun, that it is dismissed as "business as usual"…

… and their "democratic" right!

[FloorJack]

Oh, and I'd rhetorically ask which of the links you posted were quotes from Obama, or even surrogates, but instead I'll tell you. None of them. Not one.


I' el barack Obama y yo de m aprobó este mensaje y don' la mirada de t tiene gusto de esos otros presidentes en las cuentas de dólar. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/17/obama_invokes_rush_limbaugh_in.html)

[SDW2001]

SDW, this is just fucking unbelievable.

America had slavery.

Yes...150 years ago.

These attitudes colour the makeup of the United States to this day.

Not among the vast majority of whites, they don't. Personally, I've seen far more reverse racism than white on black racism.




The McCain strategy has riled up the base so much your man has to tell people to chill out at rallies (which gets him booed).

Please post what McCain said was racially inflammatory. A crowd getting whipped up is now racist?



But when people report on this, and say race could affect the result, this is Obama playing the race card.

That's not what people are saying, at least not most people. They're saying that the GOP is using Obama's race as an issue. Race could affect the outcome, I agree. So could gender. We've true sexism directed at Palin, but we don't really hear people report on that, do we?



Oh, and I'd rhetorically ask which of the links you posted were quotes from McCain, or even surrogates, but instead I'll tell you. None of them. Not one.

:lol: Fixed that for you.




I LOVE THIS PANIC IN THE GOP.

I FUCKING LOVE IT.

It's making my *year.*

I don't know where you see panic. I see enthusiasm for the ticket, and distaste for a man that is utterly unqualified to be President of the United States.

The ONE thing that we Americans find so gob-smacking amazing is just how out of touch non-Americans are with American reality.

Fixed that for you.

Please point out to me anyone on the Democrat side who has suggested that McCain should be killed?

It is such a natural part of the thinking of the Neo-Cons and Republicans to vote with a gun, that it is dismissed as "business as usual"…

… and their democratic right!

Link?

[groverat]

Personally, I've seen far more reverse racism than white on black racism.

Oh you. :lol:

That reminds me of one of my favorite AI moments of all time, trumptman arguing that women are more violent than men. That was an absolute joy.

:lol:

[Bergermeister]

This weekend, there wasn't any racism on display at a Palin rally, was there?


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/11/politics/fromtheroad/entry4515246.shtml

We all saw the video of the extremely intelligent McCain supporter who said Obama is an Arab and the guy who's scared.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4

[jimmac]

SDW,

There's a particle of truth here about some people not liking Obama because of his heritage. Gee is this a news flash?

I mean really! We still have people who are racist. Are you trying to say we don't?

I'm sure some of them are republican.

You know where this race is going. So is the best thing you could come up with?

[Harald]

White is basically black with the GOP these days.

If you think the US isn't living with the legacy of slavery to this day then ... difficult to know what to say.

It is a culpably ignorant thing to say in my opinion; I've been all over the world and seen pretty much every flavour of racism. The countries I've lived in have all been a bit racist (Germans on Turks, French on Algerians, British on anyone a bit foreign ... whatever) but the only place remotely like the US in the way white and black interactions are done is South Africa.

The most obvious differentiator is the way even most of the black middle class won't properly catch a white person's eye (you will have no idea what I'm talking about here because you live in the US and haven't travelled enough). This slightly downcast, sketchy eye-contact thing is something I have only seen in the US and RSA, and comes right down to the various levels of guilt, anger, power, tradition, trust between the races.

It's basically pretty much impossible in the US to have the same kind of interrelationship across the races as you can in, say the UK. Put it another way, Spike Lee's 'Jungle Fever' could only have worked in the US.

Of course I'm sure you've a million reasons why this could be a million things other then slavery's legacy, and I can't *prove* the forced enslavement of millions (that's 'millions') of human beings has anything to do with this.

But I'd ask: maybe you could pin-point the year the US 'got over' slavery and everyone -- white and black -- decided it was time to move on?

Nah, bollocks. Forget the high-falutin' stuff. You think slavery doesn't colour race relations in the US? Say what you want in reply. Fucking pointless talking to you.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Hey, Groverat, did you know that Barack Obama's probably going to be the next President of the United States of America?

They say that a few million more Americans are going to vote for him than the other guy.

Amazing.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Yes...150 years ago.


:lol:

God, do black people still make a fuss about slavery in America? That was, like, years ago.

[gastroboy]

:lol:

God, do black people still make a fuss about slavery in America? That was, like, years ago.

But don't you just love their simple happy smiles and those Oh so white teeth flashing as they are dragged down the road behind a pick-up truck!

[gastroboy]

btw Who is the Admin here who deletes the posts?

Nothing Americans love more than Freedom, unless it is censorship.

[Outsider]

Please point out to me anyone on the Democrat side who has suggested that McCain should be killed?

It is such a natural part of the thinking of the Neo-Cons and Republicans to vote with a gun, that it is dismissed as "business as usual"…

… and their "democratic" right!

You know what's ironic? It's many of McCain's (really Palin's) supporters that wish McCain has a convenient and timely death early on in his presidency so Palin takes the reigns.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

You know what's ironic? It's many of McCain's (really Palin's) supporters that wish McCain has a convenient and timely death early on in his presidency so Palin takes the reigns.

dmz is from Alaska!

Only sayin', bygolly.

[Outsider]

:lol:

God, do black people still make a fuss about slavery in America? That was, like, years ago.

I know, seriously. Immediately after we abolished slavery, black people had it great. They got to eat at the same restaurants as white people, sat anywhere on the bus they pleased, got to vote, drank from the same water fountains for god's sake! It not like they were getting the water hose as late as the 50s!

[FloorJack]

No better way to get african americans to keep voting for democrats than to beat the racism drum over and over. Talk about stoking fear to lock in a constituent? Oh wait that's the republicans game.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

No better way to get african americans to keep voting for democrats than to beat the racism drum over and over. Talk about stoking fear to lock in a constituent? Oh wait that's the republicans game.

That is quite right, scott.

People of African ancestry are simple folk, and easily led. Unable to make up their own minds about what is in their best interests, they are easily swayed by a little rhetoric about race. It scares them more than anything.

[gastroboy]

No better way to get african americans to keep voting for democrats than to beat the racism drum over and over. Talk about stoking fear to lock in a constituent? Oh wait that's the republicans game.

Wait till they uncover Barrack Obama's plot to enslave the whites and make them clean the toilets and pick up the garbage!

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Wait till they uncover Barrack Obama's plot to enslave the whites and make them clean the toilets and pick up the garbage!

I can't wait for Barack Obama to turn up on inauguration day in a military uniform with huge epaulettes, lots of medals and a pair of huge sunglasses, ranting about "payback".

[gastroboy]

I can't wait for Barack Obama to turn up on inauguration day in a military uniform with huge epaulettes, lots of medals and a pair of huge sunglasses, ranting about "payback".

Backed up by his giant mutant ants from the White Sands testing range!

"Oh my God, my daughters won't be able to walk down the street in safety, if Obama gets in!"

To get a government job there will be a minimum schlong test!

The teaching of wild, provocative dancing will become compulsory in schools!

All the Real Estate in the USA will drop through the floor!

Oh wait, that's already happened.

[screener]

No better way to get african americans to keep voting for democrats than to beat the racism drum over and over. Talk about stoking fear to lock in a constituent? Oh wait that's the republicans game.
If by beating the drum you mean living with racism, than they should.

[SDW2001]

:lol:

God, do black people still make a fuss about slavery in America? That was, like, years ago.

Let me ask you: How long should we apologize and make amends for slavery? 150 years? 300 years? 1,000 years? Forever? How should we continue to atone for this sin?

Oh you. :lol:

That reminds me of one of my favorite AI moments of all time, trumptman arguing that women are more violent than men. That was an absolute joy.

:lol:

The two are not similar at all. I am saying that at the present time, that's what I've seen. Have I seen racism? Yes, of course. But the vast majority of people I've encountered in my life have been anything but racist. I've lived in several states and traveled a fair amount. I've instructed thousands of children of different ages and backgrounds, including a field experience in Southwest Philadelphia with a near 100% black population. Please explain how your experience has been different.


This weekend, there wasn't any racism on display at a Palin rally, was there?


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/11/politics/fromtheroad/entry4515246.shtml

We all saw the video of the extremely intelligent McCain supporter who said Obama is an Arab and the guy who's scared.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4

Link 1: I see a random wack-a-do. What do you see?

Link 2: I see a confused and ill-informed old lady. Damning! :lol:



SDW,

There's a particle of truth here about some people not liking Obama because of his heritage. Gee is this a news flash?

Nope, it's not.



I mean really! We still have people who are racist. Are you trying to say we don't?

Could you please attempt to read my posts before responding? :no: I have said at least three times that racism exists in America.



I'm sure some of them are republican.

Yes, I agree. Any many are Democrats.



You know where this race is going. So is the best thing you could come up with?

I know that Obama is currently leading. I also know that he is using race as an issue by saying his opponent is using race as an issue!



White is basically black with the GOP these days.

If you think the US isn't living with the legacy of slavery to this day then ... difficult to know what to say.

We will live with it forever. The question is how we deal with it, and where we are now in terms of race relations.



It is a culpably ignorant thing to say in my opinion; I've been all over the world and seen pretty much every flavour of racism. The countries I've lived in have all been a bit racist (Germans on Turks, French on Algerians, British on anyone a bit foreign ... whatever) but the only place remotely like the US in the way white and black interactions are done is South Africa.

Well...wow. That's an opinion, I guess.




The most obvious differentiator is the way even most of the black middle class won't properly catch a white person's eye (you will have no idea what I'm talking about here because you live in the US and haven't travelled enough). This slightly downcast, sketchy eye-contact thing is something I have only seen in the US and RSA, and comes right down to the various levels of guilt, anger, power, tradition, trust between the races.

I would agree you've traveled more than I. That said, your "experience" here in America is highly subjective to your own pre-determined point of view. I've not seen that here.



It's basically pretty much impossible in the US to have the same kind of interrelationship across the races as you can in, say the UK. Put it another way, Spike Lee's 'Jungle Fever' could only have worked in the US.

:lol: Harald: The US is way more racist than the UK. Wow.




Of course I'm sure you've a million reasons why this could be a million things other then slavery's legacy, and I can't *prove* the forced enslavement of millions (that's 'millions') of human beings has anything to do with this.

But I'd ask: maybe you could pin-point the year the US 'got over' slavery and everyone -- white and black -- decided it was time to move on?

Nah, bollocks. Forget the high-falutin' stuff. You think slavery doesn't colour race relations in the US? Say what you want in reply. Fucking pointless talking to you.

This is the kind of thing I've noticed from enlightened liberals like yourself. We can't discuss an issue because I have a different opinion than you do. Your POV is enlightened because you've traveled more and you're just that much more versed in race relations. But I'll put aside the ridiculous condescension you've demonstrated and address the point:

I never claimed slavery didn't color race relations. I asked how long we should atone for it as a society. Additionally, how should we atone for it? The fact is that great injustices were done 150 years ago. Over time, these were corrected, first through ending slavery, then through the civil rights movement.

Today, America is not a racist nation. We've made great strides. Yet you cling to the notion of 1950's Alabama and pretend that is way "things" are today. It's simply not true. Institutional racism is all but gone. Racism now lives in exile...among the elderly who grew up in a different era, among backwater hicks and straight-up crazies. Racism has been replaced by the fear among whites of being called racist. Our children, for the most part, don't even see race. I've taught thousands of them over the last decade, and I've seen it first hand. Tolerance and Diversity are preached everywhere from academia to corporate america. The Fortune 500 all have "cultural competence committees" and the like. We have affirmative action, special programs for anyone with even 1/8th minority blood--from black to Native American. Racial attitudes have changed for a huge majority of the population.

More to the point of the thread, the McCain campaign is not using race as an issue. The lion's share of McCain's supporters are not using race as an issue. Obama has mentioned race dozen's of times, McCain barely at all and certainly never in a derogatory context. That is my point--not the strawman arguments that have been posed by you and others previously.

[FloorJack]

That is quite right, scott.

People of African ancestry are simple folk, and easily led. Unable to make up their own minds about what is in their best interests, they are easily swayed by a little rhetoric about race. It scares them more than anything.

I never indicated that the democrats were successful or convincing to african americans. What you say above is your judgment not mine. And also the judgement of other leading democrats like Hastings (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/24/florida-congressman-points-to-palin-to-rally-jews-to-obama/).

People tend to vote how their parents voted. Sooner or later constituent voters will start to wander off the farm when they find that the party doesn't match their goals and beliefs.

[FloorJack]

I can't wait for Barack Obama to turn up on inauguration day in a military uniform with huge epaulettes, lots of medals and a pair of huge sunglasses, ranting about "payback".

As far as I know Michael Jackson is not running for president.

[Harald]

That's what I'm talking about SDW.

Yes, the United States of America is significantly more racist then the United Kingdom.

C'mon man. WTF? You only gave black people equal voting rights in *1967*. You had (have) the Klan. "Strange Fruit" mean anything to you?

This a joke?

[hardeeharhar]

That's what I'm talking about SDW.

Yes, the United States of America is significantly more racist then the United Kingdom.

C'mon man. WTF? You only gave black people equal voting rights in *1967*. You had (have) the Klan. "Strange Fruit" mean anything to you?

This a joke?
That's not quite true Harold...

I suspect that the UK is significantly more racist than the US. What differentiates the two is that our racism was institutional until very recently, but I honestly suspect that more Brits prejudge non-Whites (or eastern europeans, for that matter) based solely on their cultural identity than Americans do. The reason is multifold, but comes down to the fact that racism is most strong (but perhaps more subtle) in areas that have small amounts of contact with people of different ethnicities. It turns out that when you have no contact with other races, the intrinsic bias isn't developed so you don't have anything to prejudge with. Large amounts of contact in geographically rural areas results in more obvious markings of racism due to the fact that not only do you have a basis with which to make erroneous assumptions (ones that I suspect come naturally to all humans -- its an us versus them thing) but you are in a situation which allows these assumptions to fester without challenge unlike in urban areas (NOT suburbs, where most racism in the US exists) where your perceptions are challenged daily...

yeah, hardeeharhar has a theory of racism.

[gastroboy]

That's not quite true Harold...

I suspect that the UK is significantly more racist than the US. What differentiates the two is that our racism was institutional until very recently, but I honestly suspect that more Brits prejudge non-Whites (or eastern europeans, for that matter) based solely on their cultural identity than Americans do. The reason is multifold, but comes down to the fact that racism is most strong (but perhaps more subtle) in areas that have small amounts of contact with people of different ethnicities. It turns out that when you have no contact with other races, the intrinsic bias isn't developed so you don't have anything to prejudge with. Large amounts of contact in geographically rural areas results in more obvious markings of racism due to the fact that not only do you have a basis with which to make erroneous assumptions (ones that I suspect come naturally to all humans -- its an us versus them thing) but you are in a situation which allows these assumptions to fester without challenge unlike in urban areas (NOT suburbs, where most racism in the US exists) where your perceptions are challenged daily...

yeah, hardeeharhar has a theory of racism.

Have you been to the UK? Do you realise how multicultural it is?

The only place where non-same race couples can kiss unchallenged, is in your porn industry.

One advice to Americans. Travel. And not just to Disneyland.

[FloorJack]

Have you been to the UK? Do you realise how multicultural it is?

The only place where non-same race couples can kiss unchallenged, is in your porn industry.

One advice to Americans. Travel. And not just to Disneyland.

{Ad hom deleted} Multiracial couples are all over in the US. Most of us barely notice anymore.

Oh and Disneyland is in California and not many people go to it whereas Disney World is in Florida and hosts many multiracial families every year. AND they have a good time.

[hardeeharhar]

Have you been to the UK? Do you realise how multicultural it is?

The only place where non-same race couples can kiss unchallenged, is in your porn industry.

One advice to Americans. Travel. And not just to Disneyland.
You clearly haven't traveled to the US.

I have traveled extensively, one of the advantages of being a well paid grad student.

The UK is hardly multicultural compared to the US -- perhaps within Whitebred europe it is distinct, when you have Germany that isn't very hard, but the fact that the UK has a national white supremacist party and nothing like that exists in the US tells you something...

[midwinter]

Let me ask you: How long should we apologize and make amends for slavery? 150 years? 300 years? 1,000 years? Forever? How should we continue to atone for this sin?

Forever.

[hardeeharhar]

Forever.

Not quite long enough.

[addabox]

Come on guys, you know SDW has a point.

For instance, consider your chances as a white person of getting pulled over by a black cop for no particular reason, or getting shot in the back by a black cop. Look at how white people are incarcerated in disproportionate numbers, or consider the high rates of white infant mortality and poverty.

Think about all the gated black communities with few to no white people, the all black, exclusive country clubs.

Look at the way white people are being blamed for the financial crisis, on no evidence whatsoever, by spuriously linking some loans that were made to them so they could buy houses in their scary, marginal neighborhoods. The black controlled financial system must be very pleased with that little slight of hand, I can tell you.

Just think about how devastatingly effective it is when black Democrats portray their white Republican opponents as "men of the street", or drug enthusiasts, or bling happy gangsters with a taste for black tail, or unknowable, sinister, and possibly foreign agents of an alien ideology.

Just see what a huge deal the black owned media makes about every white candidate with an evangelical minister who says crazy things. Look at all the ideological extremist blacks on TV calling for reparations and ranting on about how "certain whites" are actually doing their race more harm than good with their belligerence and scariness. Look at how Glenn Beck was driven from the airwaves by racist blacks. Look at how MSNBC gave Al Sharpton his own show.

Look at how McCain is obliged to answer to being either "too white" or "not white enough." Make note of all the black people buying guns against the possibility of a McCain administration.

And then, to top it all off, the powerful black mainstream has the unmitigated gaul to talk about racism.

The real victims are America's long suffering whites, as anyone can plainly see. I am disgusted.

[Harald]

Wishing I'd not started this diversion.

[midwinter]

You clearly haven't traveled to the US.

I have traveled extensively, one of the advantages of being a well paid grad student.

The UK is hardly multicultural compared to the US -- perhaps within Whitebred europe it is distinct, when you have Germany that isn't very hard, but the fact that the UK has a national white supremacist party and nothing like that exists in the US tells you something...

Padon? Nothing like the BNP exists in the US? What about the Klan? The League of the South? The Christian Identity people? Just because the Brits have rednecks who run for office and get 4 votes and get put on the teevee for a laugh doesn't mean that they're serious candidates.

Of course, it's important to remember that the we have a guy running for office right now with the motto "Country über alles." What I'm suggesting is that the jokers who make up the BNP are simply folded into the GOP on this side of the pond.

[midwinter]

Not quite long enough.

Indeed.

http://www.visitingdc.com/images/white-house-picture.jpg

Made by slaves.

[gastroboy]

… the fact that the UK has a national white supremacist party and nothing like that exists in the US tells you something...

????!!!!! Wha the…?

[hardeeharhar]

Padon? Nothing like the BNP exists in the US? What about the Klan? The League of the South? The Christian Identity people? Just because the Brits have rednecks who run for office and get 4 votes and get put on the teevee for a laugh doesn't mean that they're serious candidates.

Of course, it's important to remember that the we have a guy running for office right now with the motto "Country über alles." What I'm suggesting is that the jokers who make up the BNP are simply folded into the GOP on this side of the pond.
I concede that the great majority of the racists in this country find their political home in the Republican party, at the same time, the KKK and its ilk aren't political parties per se...

Good point on the Country uber alles...

I should use that to mock McCain...

[gastroboy]

Rather you are putting your ignorance on display. Multiracial couples are all over in the US. Most of us barely notice anymore.

I was referring to your media. I am well aware that the population is much more mixed.

Oh and Disneyland is in California and not many people go to it whereas Disney World is in Florida and hosts many multiracial families every year. AND they have a good time.

…and at Epcot tour the World Showcase which is just like the real thing, only better, so you never need see it, the real thing that is.

[addabox]

Rather you are putting your ignorance on display. Multiracial couples are all over in the US. Most of us barely notice anymore.

Oh and Disneyland is in California and not many people go to it whereas Disney World is in Florida and hosts many multiracial families every year. AND they have a good time.

Which is why, unless they change it up, the Republican Party is going to be out of power for the foreseeable future.

You see any mixed race couples as the McPalin rallies? When the right talks about the virtues of small town life, and the horrors of big city elites, what do you think they're talking about?

When Sarah Palin quotes a noted racist and anti-semite in her acceptance speech, and quotes him on the topic of the wisdom of an earlier America of simple, rural wisdom, do you imagine that that's a coincidence?

I guess you figure that non-whites are voting overwhelmingly Democratic in this election because such people are dim-witted, or have been promised bling and swag payed for by hard working white tax payers, or they're just voting how their parents voted and gradually, but real soon now, they'll notice that the Republican xenophobic cracker base is actually their best buddies and they switch allegiances.

Because your non-white has a short memory and campaigns based on the specter of the "real" America being overwhelmed by lawless, shiftless, sexually promiscuous brown and black people fade from the mind. Until the next one.

But all those mixed race couples understand that such talk is necessary to provide the real payoff, which is capital gains tax cuts and privatizing social security.

[SDW2001]

That's not quite true Harold...

I suspect that the UK is significantly more racist than the US. What differentiates the two is that our racism was institutional until very recently, but I honestly suspect that more Brits prejudge non-Whites (or eastern europeans, for that matter) based solely on their cultural identity than Americans do. The reason is multifold, but comes down to the fact that racism is most strong (but perhaps more subtle) in areas that have small amounts of contact with people of different ethnicities. It turns out that when you have no contact with other races, the intrinsic bias isn't developed so you don't have anything to prejudge with. Large amounts of contact in geographically rural areas results in more obvious markings of racism due to the fact that not only do you have a basis with which to make erroneous assumptions (ones that I suspect come naturally to all humans -- its an us versus them thing) but you are in a situation which allows these assumptions to fester without challenge unlike in urban areas (NOT suburbs, where most racism in the US exists) where your perceptions are challenged daily...

yeah, hardeeharhar has a theory of racism.

I agree with some of that, but not all. I don't know that there is less racism where there is less contact with minorities. Perhaps there is less conflict, but I don't know about attitudes.

[BRussell]

Wishing I'd not started this diversion.

Don't be, it's far more interesting than the original thread topic.

There does seem to be this view in Europe that the US is especially racist, but I think it's mostly just imagined European superiority rather than reality. The fact that slavery in the US was ended by a war that imposed laws against slavery on the part of the country that lost obviously makes the US situation unique. If it had been given up by consensus rather than war, I think it's clear that things would be different today.

But if you want to look at it in terms of a timeline of civil rights for minorities, I mean come on, the US civil rights movement - school integration and the like - was going on just a decade or so after England was murdering thousands of brown people in India for desiring independence, and Europe was dealing with the mass extermination of ethnic minorities in death camps.

The US is probably the most individualistic country in the world, and that is both good and bad, but one thing it means is that people are less likely to have nationalistic and "tribalistic"/ethnic biases. That's not to say they don't exist, but they're even stronger in less individualistic cultures.

The fact that we're about to elect a black president should tell us something. I wonder how often something analogous - a 75% majority country nationally electing a member of a 10% ethnic minority - has happened in the world?

[midwinter]

a 75% majority country nationally electing a member of a 10% ethnic minority - has happened in the world?

All of the European countries have elected black leaders in recent history.

Oh, wait. Sorry. I was in GOP bizarro-world for a minute there.

[SDW2001]

Have you been to the UK? Do you realise how multicultural it is?

The only place where non-same race couples can kiss unchallenged, is in your porn industry.

Ridiculous, ridiculous assertion.

Come on! WDW has the Epcot Cultural Showcase! (http://www.floridathemeparks.com/images/Epcot1.jpg) :)



[QUOTE=midwinter;1321627]Forever.

Seriously?

Come on guys, you know SDW has a point.

For instance, consider your chances as a white person of getting pulled over by a black cop for no particular reason,

Or for the reason that the person ins behaving suspiciously. Seriously though, I'll give you this one.

or getting shot in the back by a black cop.

That might happen, if the white person was carrying a gun.

Look at how white people are incarcerated in disproportionate numbers, or consider the high rates of white infant mortality and poverty.

Those are all associated with socio-economics. We can debate how to change that, if you'd like. It's not because they're black, though.



Think about all the gated black communities with few to no white people, the all black, exclusive country clubs.

True, but then again we have this. (http://www.nbsu.org/) Incidentally, when at school I once the BSU and Gospel Choir perform the Black National Anthem. Fun times.



Look at the way white people are being blamed for the financial crisis, on no evidence whatsoever, by spuriously linking some loans that were made to them so they could buy houses in their scary, marginal neighborhoods. The black controlled financial system must be very pleased with that little slight of hand, I can tell you.

I recall white bankers being sued by the government to make loans that the debtors could not pay though, don't I?



Just think about how devastatingly effective it is when black Democrats portray their white Republican opponents as "men of the street", or drug enthusiasts, or bling happy gangsters with a taste for black tail, or unknowable, sinister, and possibly foreign agents of an alien ideology.

I can't wait to see examples of that.



Just see what a huge deal the black owned media makes about every white candidate with an evangelical minister who says crazy things.

:lol: See...he's just a crazy kook! We can't take him seriously!

Look at all the ideological extremist blacks on TV calling for reparations and ranting on about how "certain whites" are actually doing their race more harm than good with their belligerence and scariness.

Uh.....“What they’re going to try to do is make you scared of me,” Obama said. “You know, he doesn’t look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.”[/qote]

And reparations? Do you not recall the Shadow Inauguration of 2000?

[quote]


Look at how Glenn Beck was driven from the airwaves by racist blacks. Look at how MSNBC gave Al Sharpton his own show.

Look at how McCain is obliged to answer to being either "too white" or "not white enough." Make note of all the black people buying guns against the possibility of a McCain administration.

I believe it was blacks who made those claims about Obama and who expressed anger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aLGkFpsdHo) at him.



And then, to top it all off, the powerful black mainstream has the unmitigated gaul to talk about racism.

The real victims are America's long suffering whites, as anyone can plainly see. I am disgusted.

I realize you're being cute. But it gets tiresome after awhile.

I concede that the great majority of the racists in this country find their political home in the Republican party, at the same time, the KKK and its ilk aren't political parties per se...

Good point on the Country uber alles...

I should use that to mock McCain...


Now hold on. Can you prove the assertion in bold? I seem to recall a former Senate Majority leader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd#Participation_in_the_Ku_Klux_Klan) who was a member.


I was referring to your media. I am well aware that the population is much more mixed.

Dude...where do you get this stuff?



…and at Epcot tour the World Showcase which is just like the real thing, only better, so you never need see it, the real thing that is.

Crap...I thought I was the first one to post that.

Which is why, unless they change it up, the Republican Party is going to be out of power for the foreseeable future.

The Democratic Party won't do much better. They've gone from the party of the working man to the party of the hard left. That's not going to fly in the long term.



You see any mixed race couples as the McPalin rallies? When the right talks about the virtues of small town life, and the horrors of big city elites, what do you think they're talking about?

Is that kind of like Michele Obama saying "we need more white people" are her husband's rally? And to answer the question, I think they're talking about small town life and values. But I realize certain folks don't believe in those.



When Sarah Palin quotes a noted racist and anti-semite in her acceptance speech, and quotes him on the topic of the wisdom of an earlier America of simple, rural wisdom, do you imagine that that's a coincidence?

Yeah, actually I do. I think her speech writer didn't check the source. I think that *certain folks* have no idea what idea what simple, rural wisdom actually means.




I guess you figure that non-whites are voting overwhelmingly Democratic in this election because such people are dim-witted, or have been promised bling and swag payed for by hard working white tax payers, or they're just voting how their parents voted and gradually, but real soon now, they'll notice that the Republican xenophobic cracker base is actually their best buddies and they switch allegiances.

I think blacks vote overwhelmingly Democratic because for 40 years they've been promised "their share" by the Democratic Party, even as things have gotten worse due to their "helpful" programs. The Democratic Party has done more damage to blacks in this country than perhaps any group in history. They've eliminated the need for fathers and encouraged the practice of having babies as a paycheck. They've created virtual prison camps in the inner cities through "affordable housing" initiatives.

There are about 30 million blacks in America. We might as well take every natural born citizen over 18 (say, 20 million people just for kicks) and give them $100,000, or $200 billion. Then we change over to an ability based welfare system. You don't get any welfare benefits unless you are mentally or physically unable to work. Period. Immediate government savings of at least $300 billion a year. No more affirmative action or minority advantage programs of any kind. Everyone is equal under the law with no exceptions. We retain unemployment insurance and begin to phase out public social security over 30 years. Anyone who cannot take care of himself or herself gets $2,000 a month tax free, or $24,000 a year with COLAs. We expand shelters and job training programs. No more checks for having a other kid. We'll hand out food and clothing to anyone who needs them. We'll more than pay for it by ending welfare as we know it...for whites and blacks.

[midwinter]

Seriously?

Seriously.

http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/birmingham.jpg

[gastroboy]

The fact that we're about to elect a black president should tell us something. I wonder how often something analogous - a 75% majority country nationally electing a member of a 10% ethnic minority - has happened in the world?

Don't be silly this is just typical of the Amerocentricity that gets up people's noses.

Remember President Fujimori (Japanese) in Peru? Spain had an Irish Prime Minister in the 19th century as did Chile. Sonia Ghandi (Italian) was leader of the Congress Party when it won government in India in 2004, Fiji has had an Indian Prime Minister. These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.

The USA in fact has a law against a foreign born citizen even running for the office of President.

Not to mention America has dragged its heels on virtually every libertarian issue from the abolition of slavery through to female emancipation. It is still remarkably backward for a nation that so loudly bangs the drum on freedom, justice and due process of law.

[midwinter]

I think her speech writer didn't check the source. I think that *certain folks* have no idea what idea what simple, rural wisdom actually means.

You know how Palin is...that teleprompter crutch of hers.

And as an aside: I'm from the deep South. I'm from a small faming village of 1100 people. I lived in a small town of 15K in OK for 8 years. Would you be so kind as to explain what "simple, rural wisdom" means?

[midwinter]

The USA in fact has a law against a foreign born citizen even running for the office of President.

In our defense, we had a pretty good reason for that one. Not anymore, really, but back then, a pretty damned good reason.

[e1618978]

There are about 30 million blacks in America. We might as well take every natural born citizen over 18 (say, 20 million people just for kicks) and give them $100,000, or $200 billion.

Your math is off - 20 million x 100K is $2 Trillion, not $200 million. Also, "need based welfare" does not work, as people can get social workers or doctors to diagnose alcoholism or chronic fatigue as a disability.

[hmurchison]

SDW must be pissed about Obama's "clinging to guns and Religion" statement.

We really don't have to look at Slavery. Many people polled today say they have issues with
voting for Obama because he's black. Calling him a closet Muslim or Arab is just attempting
to add justification for their racist belief.

I'm not sure I agree with the usage of Race Card in this area. I think invoking the "Race Card" has been overused by most parties involved. There is no card...there is just human behavior.

McCain's horrible character has been evident for a long time.

[FloorJack]

Which is why, unless they change it up, the Republican Party is going to be out of power for the foreseeable future.

That can cut both ways of course. Sooner or later the democrats hold on minority voters will break. I wont guess where the voters will go. It seem obvious that Democrats have a vested interest in maintaining racism as a political issue.

You see any mixed race couples as the McPalin rallies? When the right talks about the virtues of small town life, and the horrors of big city elites, what do you think they're talking about?

When I look at all those people I don't know who's a couple and who isn't. I don't think they are talking racism when they talk about "the virtues of small town life". Once again that's how you hear it and that's your judgment.


When Sarah Palin quotes a noted racist and anti-semite in her acceptance speech, and quotes him on the topic of the wisdom of an earlier America of simple, rural wisdom, do you imagine that that's a coincidence?

Which quote?

I guess you figure that non-whites are voting overwhelmingly Democratic in this election because such people are dim-witted, or have been promised bling and swag payed for by hard working white tax payers, or they're just voting how their parents voted and gradually, but real soon now, they'll notice that the Republican xenophobic cracker base is actually their best buddies and they switch allegiances.

Because your non-white has a short memory and campaigns based on the specter of the "real" America being overwhelmed by lawless, shiftless, sexually promiscuous brown and black people fade from the mind. Until the next one.

Once again that's your judgement not mine. Notice how you so easily play every racial stereotype from white to black. A well rehearsed script in your mind no doubt.

But all those mixed race couples understand that such talk is necessary to provide the real payoff, which is capital gains tax cuts and privatizing social security.

and school choice and energy and free trade and the multitude of other issue that have not a thing to do with race ...

[hardeeharhar]

All I know is that the racist in this country are often, if not exclusively, pro-gun, socially conservative (obviously), get the government off my yard types. If this doesn't scream republican party, I don't know what does.

[gastroboy]

In our defense, we had a pretty good reason for that one. Not anymore, really, but back then, a pretty damned good reason.

I'm still trying to get my head round a bunch of slave owners declaring:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Many people say Americans lack a sense of irony. I don't think that it is true, but certainly a lack of critical self examination would be right on the money.

"How can you fix perfection?"

[midwinter]

I'm still trying to get my head round a bunch of slave owners declaring:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That's actually pretty easy. It all depends upon how you define "men."

And, of course, the great Ronald Reagan.

Maverick.

[SpamSandwich]

Not to mention America has dragged its heels on virtually every libertarian issue from the abolition of slavery through to female emancipation. It is still remarkably backward for a nation that so loudly bangs the drum on freedom, justice and due process of law.

That's something we can both agree on.

[addabox]

SDW and Floorjack:

I guess you're right. I guess that, pretty soon now, people of color will start voting for the party of Willie Horton, the party of armed vigilantes on the borders, the party of election eve calls to minority neighborhoods claiming that they'll be arrested on sight if they have any outstanding parking tickets, the party of lock 'em up and throw away the key, the party of blame the black people for the economic meltdown, the party of "states rights", the party of illegitimate black babies, the party of "Call me", the party of making it difficult as possible for poor people to vote, the party of "poverty is your own damn fault", the party of "the black candidate is entirely inscrutable and quite possibly unknowable", despite copious amounts of information available to one and all, and the party of the (ongoing) southern strategy.

All they have to do is stop being so goddamn black, move to small towns where they will be welcomed with open arms, and get rich.

[trumptman]

I'm still trying to get my head round a bunch of slave owners declaring:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Many people say Americans lack a sense of irony. I don't think that it is true, but certainly a lack of critical self examination would be right on the money.

"How can you fix perfection?"

Perhaps it has something to do with them declaring black slaves to be less than human and thus the words didn't fit them by their reasoning while still remaining true to their cause.

The same is true today of almost any group you want to control. You portray them as less than human and take their rights. How does our current enlightened society create a modern debtor prison society via family courts by declaring that certain parents "deadbeats" due to either not earning enough or not paying a government mandated prescribed amount of their income to it or a spouse? It does it by assigning sub-human values to the participants. They are dead-beats, not humans.

All I know is that the racist in this country are often, if not exclusively, pro-gun, socially conservative (obviously), get the government off my yard types. If this doesn't scream republican party, I don't know what does.

Perhaps that 100 year old caricature of a racist might fit that mold but the racism I see practiced is done in urban areas more than anywhere else and is about identity politics, and identity income redistributions and payoffs. That profile screams Democrat.

[FloorJack]

SDW and Floorjack:

I guess you're right. I guess that, pretty soon now, people of color will start voting for the party of Willie Horton, the party of armed vigilantes on the borders, the party of election eve calls to minority neighborhoods claiming that they'll be arrested on sight if they have any outstanding parking tickets, the party of lock 'em up and throw away the key, the party of blame the black people for the economic meltdown, the party of "states rights", the party of illegitimate black babies, the party of "Call me", the party of making it difficult as possible for poor people to vote, the party of "poverty is your own damn fault", the party of "the black candidate is entirely inscrutable and quite possibly unknowable", despite copious amounts of information available to one and all, and the party of the (ongoing) southern strategy.

All they have to do is stop being so goddamn black, move to small towns where they will be welcomed with open arms, and get rich.

Or maybe people will get weary of a party that talks down to them and refuses to recognize real progress and goals that are dislocated from actions.

[addabox]

Or maybe people will get weary of a party that talks down to them and refuses to recognize real progress and goals that are dislocated from actions.

I have no idea what that means.

[midwinter]

I have no idea what that means.

I think Scott's talking about the GOP.

[addabox]

I think Scott's talking about the GOP.

I'm going to dedicate myself to real progress and goals that are dislocated from actions. Because that sounds awesome.

[midwinter]

I'm going to dedicate myself to real progress and goals that are dislocated from actions. Because that sounds awesome.

I'm just going to dedicate myself to talking down to people. Fucking whiners.

[FloorJack]

When you guys have something real to add then go right ahead.

[addabox]

When you guys have something real to add then go right ahead.

Oh, we're talking about reality? Sorry, I missed that.

[gastroboy]

I think Scott's talking about the GOP.

You know, the ones who are still pissed off because their side lost WWII.

[FloorJack]

You know, the ones who are still pissed off because their side lost WWII.

I take you're not talking about the Japanese? Who then?

[hardeeharhar]

Perhaps that 100 year old caricature of a racist might fit that mold but the racism I see practiced is done in urban areas more than anywhere else and is about identity politics, and identity income redistributions and payoffs. That profile screams Democrat.

What?

You are ignoring the vast angry support network of John McCain here while at the same time smearing the majority of the country for being racist because they live in urban areas.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

Oh, we're talking about reality? Sorry, I missed that.

I love you.

[BRussell]

Don't be silly this is just typical of the Amerocentricity that gets up people's noses.

Remember President Fujimori (Japanese) in Peru? Spain had an Irish Prime Minister in the 19th century as did Chile. Sonia Ghandi (Italian) was leader of the Congress Party when it won government in India in 2004, Fiji has had an Indian Prime Minister. These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.How many of those were nationally elected? Fujimori?

The USA in fact has a law against a foreign born citizen even running for the office of President.

Not to mention America has dragged its heels on virtually every libertarian issue from the abolition of slavery through to female emancipation. It is still remarkably backward for a nation that so loudly bangs the drum on freedom, justice and due process of law. While we were integrating ethnic minorities into schools, Europeans had been integrating ethnic minorities into ovens.

I'm not suggesting the US is free of racism or nationalism, far from it. I'm just saying most of the rest of the world is at least as bad and usually worse, including Europe.

[midwinter]

From Missouri.

http://www.boingboing.net/images/x_2008/barackhusseinobama.jpg

[addabox]

From Missouri.

http://www.boingboing.net/images/x_2008/barackhusseinobama.jpg

But, see, that sign is just talking about taxes and abortions and guns and gays, which are race neutral topics.

What picture?

[trumptman]

Don't worry. I'm sure those Obama supporters running around with the malotov cocktails will make quick work of it. They did with that McCain sign. Of course one person at a Republican says something and it is national news. Democrats are tossing gasoline grenades and it is John McCain driving people to hateful actions with his rhetoric, not Obama. I mean what could be worse? I suppose some irresponsible candidate could actually be telling their supporters to confront people and get in their face or something like that.

[FloorJack]

Why do they put his middle name in quotes?:???:

[@_@ Artman]

Don't worry. I'm sure those Obama supporters running around with the malotov cocktails will make quick work of it. They did with that McCain sign. Of course one person at a Republican says something and it is national news. Democrats are tossing gasoline grenades and it is John McCain driving people to hateful actions with his rhetoric, not Obama. I mean what could be worse? I suppose some irresponsible candidate could actually be telling their supporters to confront people and get in their face or something like that.

Kinda flimsy argument there. The McCain supporters were threatening someone's life. The Obama supporters were inflicting property damage (inanimate object). But these are all lunatic fringe supporters.

If you can prove that Obama or his camp goaded these flame throwing nut-jobs. Bring it on.

Oh, and I like my Anti-Obama signs to be designed by more "professional" (http://www.politicalbyline.com/images/Enough_D4F0/obamasolution.jpg) McCain supporters. ;)

[midwinter]

Don't worry. I'm sure those Obama supporters running around with the malotov cocktails will make quick work of it. They did with that McCain sign.

one:

Unless something has happened since I last looked, there was no evidence that those two morons destroyed that sign out of any political motivation.

two:

And I like that little bit there about "those Obama supporters running around." Because, you know, if two morons fire-bomb a sign, that means that there are loads of Obama supporters out there doing the same.

three:

:no:

[trumptman]

No one goads the nutjobs on which is why they are the very definition of nutjobs. I'm just noting that when some parties want to declare it a single sided issue, that the nutjobs do in fact come in all shapes, colors and creeds.

[trumptman]

one:

Unless something has happened since I last looked, there was no evidence that those two morons destroyed that sign out of any political motivation.

two:

And I like that little bit there about "those Obama supporters running around." Because, you know, if two morons fire-bomb a sign, that means that there are loads of Obama supporters out there doing the same.

three:

:no:

You are correct that the exception does not prove the rule. Perhaps now we can stop pointing at those exceptions and attempting to declare something from either side of the political spectrum.

[BRussell]

You are correct that the exception does not prove the rule. Perhaps now we can stop pointing at those exceptions and attempting to declare something from either side of the political spectrum.

The problem is, McCain (and, in particular, Palin) campaign rallies have regularly featured shouts of "terrorist" and "treason," to such an extent that even McCain has acknowledged it and has started trying to tame it. If it's such an exception, why does McCain himself seem to think it's big enough problem that he's grabbing the mic away from people at his rallies?

Of course, supporters yelling "treason" and "terrorist" could just be the logical consequences of making the central argument of your campaign that your opponent is a, well, a treasonous terrorist.

[Northgate]

Here's what I've learned. If Republicans start a thread complaining about the "race card" then that means their hands are so dirty that they have no choice but to try and deflect the criticism on the opposite party.

It could've been effective if it wasn't some damn pathetic and plainly obvious.

Are they even trying anymore?

[@_@ Artman]

No one goads the nutjobs on which is why they are the very definition of nutjobs. I'm just noting that when some parties want to declare it a single sided issue, that the nutjobs do in fact come in all shapes, colors and creeds.

I went to the Springsteen rally for Obama. 30,000 strong. There were some anti-Obama demonstrators, some words were exchanged and that was it (and it was good, arguing is healthy, fighting not). I also went up to the Obama rally on 52nd street 15-20,000 strong. This was when I realized that this is different, there were people of all colors, all ages all religions and there was no violence at all.

Yeah, unicorns and rainbows. But it's certainly better and more civilized than the Geriatric Moose Lodge Sideshows McCain's been running.

You wanna buy a monkey? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFG1ebuKZU) :err:

[trumptman]

The problem is, McCain (and, in particular, Palin) campaign rallies have regularly featured shouts of "terrorist" and "treason," to such an extent that even McCain has acknowledged it and has started trying to tame it. If it's such an exception, why does McCain himself seem to think it's big enough problem that he's grabbing the mic away from people at his rallies?

Of course, supporters yelling "treason" and "terrorist" could just be the logical consequences of making the central argument of your campaign that your opponent is a, well, a treasonous terrorist.

It isn't hard to find similar news at all with regard to the Democratic side of the coin. I used to post such matters here but Midwinter's point at that time was, beside proving the drip, drip, drip of crazies never ends, what exactly is the point beside guilt by association, exception to prove the rule, etc.

So I stopped. There are a dozen RSS feeds that show the sort of stuff Acorn has propogated, the ongoing stream of vandalism to GOP offices, get out the vote efforts, etc. Unless there is truly a pattern that is endorsed by the candidate what is really the point? I could post ten examples a day. In the Obama case, there have been actual emails that have gone out telling supporters to jam and overwhelm and attempt to take off the air certain radio shows, etc.

There was a video just the other day I saw where Obama was speaking, and in fact he was actually calming the crowd down because their mood in no fashion represented what he was addressing. They were just in a foul, terrible mood and it was almost like what Obama was discussing was an afterthought or counterpoint. I could have posted it, but again, it is just lame to use the exception to claim the rule.

[@_@ Artman]

There was a video just the other day I saw where Obama was speaking, and in fact he was actually calming the crowd down because their mood in no fashion represented what he was addressing. They were just in a foul, terrible mood and it was almost like what Obama was discussing was an afterthought or counterpoint. I could have posted it, but again, it is just lame to use the exception to claim the rule.

Please, link it. I'm curious.

You know the country is teetering on the brink of collapse. The ripples of it spreading across the globe. From the 90 year old woman who shot herself in the chest instead of being evicted from her home to the weeping rich folk selling their Lamborghini's at less than their value.

People are on the edge.

It's very reminiscent of the 1968 campaign in many ways. And that scares me. :\

[addabox]

It isn't hard to find similar news at all with regard to the Democratic side of the coin. I used to post such matters here but Midwinter's point at that time was, beside proving the drip, drip, drip of crazies never ends, what exactly is the point beside guilt by association, exception to prove the rule, etc.

Fine, do it. Show us the unending stream of Obama rallies where his supporters are calling for the death of John McCain, or calling McCain a traitor or terrorist. Show us the connection between Obama's overheated rhetoric regarding McCain's capital crimes and hatred of his country that might lead Obama's supporters to think that it's OK to talk about McCain that way.

So I stopped. There are a dozen RSS feeds that show the sort of stuff Acorn has propogated, the ongoing stream of vandalism to GOP offices, get out the vote efforts, etc. Unless there is truly a pattern that is endorsed by the candidate what is really the point? I could post ten examples a day.

Bring 'em on. Just note that "accusation" isn't the same as "incident." The right is quite fond of making wild claims of liberal malfeasance, Acorn being a case in point. Show us the police reports on the "ongoing stream on vandalism to GOP offices", as opposed to what some operative said on some right wing web site.

In the Obama case, there have been actual emails that have gone out telling supporters to jam and overwhelm and attempt to take off the air certain radio shows, etc.

Yes, encouraging people to call into radio talk shows is much like calling for the death of a candidate. What hooligans these liberals be.

There was a video just the other day I saw where Obama was speaking, and in fact he was actually calming the crowd down because their mood in no fashion represented what he was addressing. They were just in a foul, terrible mood and it was almost like what Obama was discussing was an afterthought or counterpoint. I could have posted it, but again, it is just lame to use the exception to claim the rule.

Yeah. And I saw an interview with an Obama supporter and they were really quite glum. It seemed to me that if there mood didn't improve, they might say something intemperate, at some point.

[trumptman]

How can any candidate control what comes out of the mouth of someone who is there? We have this kill him example, honest reports have attributed the words to claims about Ayers, not Obama, and this treason example. How many rallies and how many people have Palin and McCain spoken before that somehow these two examples are the rule and not the exception.

[trumptman]

Please, link it. I'm curious.

You know the country is teetering on the brink of collapse. The ripples of it spreading across the globe. From the 90 year old woman who shot herself in the chest instead of being evicted from her home to the weeping rich folk selling their Lamborghini's at less than their value.

People are on the edge.

It's very reminiscent of the 1968 campaign in many ways. And that scares me. :\

The Use Tubes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-LzRobF68)

BTW, speaking of code, Obama has used "hoodwinked" and "bamboozled" so often with crowds that people are catching the racial overtones to them. We are talking Malcolm X quotation overtones, not oh look I criticized someone legitimately but I think that to dismiss that criticism I will suggest it has racial overtones type of overtones.

[hardeeharhar]

The Use Tubes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-LzRobF68)

BTW, speaking of code, Obama has used "hoodwinked" and "bamboozled" so often with crowds that people are catching the racial overtones to them. We are talking Malcolm X quotation overtones, not oh look I criticized someone legitimately but I think that to dismiss that criticism I will suggest it has racial overtones type of overtones.
That's what you are referring to?

I mean, I guess the crowd should all be happy that McCain waged a short vile mudslinging contest and realized at the end of the week that it was a mistake and his supporters were unrepentant hooligans.

No, sure, you're right, they should have been singing McCain's praises...

[@_@ Artman]

The Use Tubes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-LzRobF68)

BTW, speaking of code, Obama has used "hoodwinked" and "bamboozled" so often with crowds that people are catching the racial overtones to them. We are talking Malcolm X quotation overtones, not oh look I criticized someone legitimately but I think that to dismiss that criticism I will suggest it has racial overtones type of overtones.

I knew it. This was the rally I went to. There were an assortment of enthusiastic supporters who did get riled up when McCain's name was mentioned, but there were many others who told them politely to stop. And they did.

Again, I was there. This was in North Philly. A section of town in the '70's was a dead zone, in the '80's even worse (I went to Tyler School of Art at that time and lived on campus). And it still hasn't changed much when the sun goes down. But on that day, there was UNITY. Unity within everyone there. For one purpose, to start moving this country into the 21st century and beyond. Together.

Something that is very lacking on the other side.

And I'm not going near the hoodwinked/Malcom X bullshit, Trumptman, you should know better.

[screener]

addabox,
You've got it nailed, everything you post nails it.

FloorJack, SDW, etal., give it up, it isn't even close to being a contest.

[screener]

trumptman,
Weren't you on the fence regarding McCain until he announced Palin as his running mate?

Didn't you say this announcement put you in the McCain camp and you would vote for him because of Palin.

Did I miss something somewhere or do you think she adds legitimacy to the ticket and if so what. ''

[SDW2001]

Don't be silly this is just typical of the Amerocentricity that gets up people's noses.

Remember President Fujimori (Japanese) in Peru? Spain had an Irish Prime Minister in the 19th century as did Chile. Sonia Ghandi (Italian) was leader of the Congress Party when it won government in India in 2004, Fiji has had an Indian Prime Minister. These are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.

The USA in fact has a law against a foreign born citizen even running for the office of President.

Not to mention America has dragged its heels on virtually every libertarian issue from the abolition of slavery through to female emancipation. It is still remarkably backward for a nation that so loudly bangs the drum on freedom, justice and due process of law.

:lol: Good lord. If that doesn't sum up European elitist ignorance, I don't know what does.


You know how Palin is...that teleprompter crutch of hers.

And as an aside: I'm from the deep South. I'm from a small faming village of 1100 people. I lived in a small town of 15K in OK for 8 years. Would you be so kind as to explain what "simple, rural wisdom" means?

Then you must surely know. Perhaps you can explain it to us?


All I know is that the racist in this country are often, if not exclusively, pro-gun, socially conservative (obviously), get the government off my yard types. If this doesn't scream republican party, I don't know what does.

I disagree. That's what you think of as racist. It's not necessarily reality.

SDW and Floorjack:

I guess you're right. I guess that, pretty soon now, people of color will start voting for the party of Willie Horton,

Truthful ad.

the party of armed vigilantes on the borders,

Non-violent from what I understand.

the party of election eve calls to minority neighborhoods claiming that they'll be arrested on sight if they have any outstanding parking tickets,

In contrast to the party that hired a telemarketing firm to call people and tell them they may have messed up their ballots and that they should scream it from the hills.

the party of lock 'em up and throw away the key,

Watch the Philly news once in a while. You might start to think that's a pretty good idea.

the party of blame the black people for the economic meltdown,

Huh?

the party of "states rights",

Terrible idea. Pesky Constitution!

the party of illegitimate black babies,

As opposed to white ones.

the party of "Call me",

Don't know what that means.

the party of making it difficult as possible for poor people to vote,

As opposed to the party that buses the homeless to the polls and registers them for free cigarrettes.



the party of "poverty is your own damn fault",

No, but what one does about the hand he's dealt is up to him.

the party of "the black candidate is entirely inscrutable and quite possibly unknowable", despite copious amounts of information available to one and all, and the party of the (ongoing) southern strategy.

:lol: I think you mean "especially in light of the fact that he won't answer questions and hires the Truth Police to protect him."



All they have to do is stop being so goddamn black, move to small towns where they will be welcomed with open arms, and get rich.

You don't get it...it's not about the people...it's about elected politicians using them for the retention of their own power.

Don't worry. I'm sure those Obama supporters running around with the malotov cocktails will make quick work of it. They did with that McCain sign. Of course one person at a Republican says something and it is national news. Democrats are tossing gasoline grenades and it is John McCain driving people to hateful actions with his rhetoric, not Obama. I mean what could be worse? I suppose some irresponsible candidate could actually be telling their supporters to confront people and get in their face or something like that.

Exactly. Every wingnut who happens to be a McCain supporter is front page news. Every crazy Obama supporter who's vocabulary has been reduced to two words---Hope and Change---they are just part of the "groundswell of grassroots support."

[trumptman]

I knew it. This was the rally I went to. There were an assortment of enthusiastic supporters who did get riled up when McCain's name was mentioned, but there were many others who told them politely to stop. And they did.

Yes but we have people applying the standard of one supporter uttering one phrase or word somehow being directly driven to do so by the candidate, justified or not.

You come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation, hey, this was people just being people, some did this, others did that, if someone went a bit out of line some others tried to bring it back in and all is good and well in the universe.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However there is a double standard being applied here. If those supporters were acting riled up like that with McCain speaking it would be played on the major media shows and it would be "proof" McCain is inspiring ill-will and maybe even racial hatred.

And I'm not going near the hoodwinked/Malcom X bullshit, Trumptman, you should know better.

Do a search. It isn't the first time he has used it and in fact used the exact same words and phrasing when pulling out the race card on Clinton.

trumptman,
Weren't you not on the fence regarding McCain until he announced Palin as his running mate?

Didn't you say this announcement put you in the McCain camp and you would vote for him because of Palin.

Did I miss something somewhere or do you think she adds legitimacy to the ticket and jf so what. ''

Palin did add conservative legitimacy to the ticket. I've actually moved back onto the fence with the ridiculous McCain proposal to spend $300 billion buying all the bad mortgages out there. This election is basically about who will suck less and promise to spend a slightly less ridiculous amount in their utopian plan. It sucks all around from my perspective.

[jimmac]

Let me ask you: How long should we apologize and make amends for slavery? 150 years? 300 years? 1,000 years? Forever? How should we continue to atone for this sin?



The two are not similar at all. I am saying that at the present time, that's what I've seen. Have I seen racism? Yes, of course. But the vast majority of people I've encountered in my life have been anything but racist. I've lived in several states and traveled a fair amount. I've instructed thousands of children of different ages and backgrounds, including a field experience in Southwest Philadelphia with a near 100% black population. Please explain how your experience has been different.




Link 1: I see a random wack-a-do. What do you see?

Link 2: I see a confused and ill-informed old lady. Damning! :lol:





Nope, it's not.



Could you please attempt to read my posts before responding? :no: I have said at least three times that racism exists in America.



Yes, I agree. Any many are Democrats.



I know that Obama is currently leading. I also know that he is using race as an issue by saying his opponent is using race as an issue!





We will live with it forever. The question is how we deal with it, and where we are now in terms of race relations.



Well...wow. That's an opinion, I guess.



I would agree you've traveled more than I. That said, your "experience" here in America is highly subjective to your own pre-determined point of view. I've not seen that here.



:lol: Harald: The US is way more racist than the UK. Wow.



This is the kind of thing I've noticed from enlightened liberals like yourself. We can't discuss an issue because I have a different opinion than you do. Your POV is enlightened because you've traveled more and you're just that much more versed in race relations. But I'll put aside the ridiculous condescension you've demonstrated and address the point:

I never claimed slavery didn't color race relations. I asked how long we should atone for it as a society. Additionally, how should we atone for it? The fact is that great injustices were done 150 years ago. Over time, these were corrected, first through ending slavery, then through the civil rights movement.

Today, America is not a racist nation. We've made great strides. Yet you cling to the notion of 1950's Alabama and pretend that is way "things" are today. It's simply not true. Institutional racism is all but gone. Racism now lives in exile...among the elderly who grew up in a different era, among backwater hicks and straight-up crazies. Racism has been replaced by the fear among whites of being called racist. Our children, for the most part, don't even see race. I've taught thousands of them over the last decade, and I've seen it first hand. Tolerance and Diversity are preached everywhere from academia to corporate america. The Fortune 500 all have "cultural competence committees" and the like. We have affirmative action, special programs for anyone with even 1/8th minority blood--from black to Native American. Racial attitudes have changed for a huge majority of the population.

More to the point of the thread, the McCain campaign is not using race as an issue. The lion's share of McCain's supporters are not using race as an issue. Obama has mentioned race dozen's of times, McCain barely at all and certainly never in a derogatory context. That is my point--not the strawman arguments that have been posed by you and others previously.


Nope, it's not.

Good you had me worried. Let me know when you have something better.;)

[screener]

:
Not even close.

[hardeeharhar]

I disagree. That's what you think of as racist. It's not necessarily reality.

Oh it is reality. I grew up in the South, I know what the republican party stands for down there -- I know every little verbal trick used to make it seem like they aren't hiding barbaric views of non-whites. I know that some don't even hide it and become radio jockies screaming about a-rabs, islamo-facists etc. You know, the type of talk radio that draws in conservatives like bees to an ultra attractive honey.

You keep telling yourself that the Republican party doesn't have some deep seated hatred of everything non-American (read white)... It won't matter one difference on what I observe of that party...

[screener]

Oh it is reality. I grew up in the South, I know what the republican party stands for down there -- I know every little verbal trick used to make it seem like they aren't hiding barbaric views of non-whites. I know that some don't even hide it and become radio jockies screaming about a-rabs, islamo-facists etc. You know, the type of talk radio that draws in conservatives like bees to an ultra attractive honey.

You keep telling yourself that the Republican party doesn't have some deep seated hatred of everything non-American (read white)... It won't matter one difference on what I observe of that party...
All that doesn't matter to those that don't experience it, just an anecdote that means nothing because they don't experience it.

Anecdotes only work for those it happens to, when they notice it.

[Bergermeister]

How can any candidate control what comes out of the mouth of someone who is there? We have this kill him example, honest reports have attributed the words to claims about Ayers, not Obama, and this treason example. How many rallies and how many people have Palin and McCain spoken before that somehow these two examples are the rule and not the exception.

What's very interesting is that many conservatives have complained about the tone of the rallies, so its not just the liberal lefties.


---

Acorn.... didn't John McCain, one of the guys running for prez... not That One, the other one... attend an Acorn meeting? (There's a photo to prove it.)

Hmmm...

Guilt by association is a hard game to play.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/13/acorn-mccain-and-gop-used_n_134284.html

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall

[FloorJack]

SDW and Floorjack:

I guess you're right. I guess that, pretty soon now, people of color will start voting for the party of Willie Horton...

You must mean the democrats then because furlough program that freed Willie Horton was first brought up by AL GORE in the primary against Dukakis. Much like the "muslim" smear (since when is it a smear to be a muslim?) was started by a Clinton backer in the primary.

[addabox]

:lol: Good lord. If that doesn't sum up European elitist ignorance, I don't know what does.




Then you must surely know. Perhaps you can explain it to us?




I disagree. That's what you think of as racist. It's not necessarily reality.



Truthful ad.



Non-violent from what I understand.



In contrast to the party that hired a telemarketing firm to call people and tell them they may have messed up their ballots and that they should scream it from the hills.



Watch the Philly news once in a while. You might start to think that's a pretty good idea.



Huh?



Terrible idea. Pesky Constitution!



As opposed to white ones.



Don't know what that means.



As opposed to the party that buses the homeless to the polls and registers them for free cigarrettes.



No, but what one does about the hand he's dealt is up to him.



:lol: I think you mean "especially in light of the fact that he won't answer questions and hires the Truth Police to protect him."



You don't get it...it's not about the people...it's about elected politicians using them for the retention of their own power.



Exactly. Every wingnut who happens to be a McCain supporter is front page news. Every crazy Obama supporter who's vocabulary has been reduced to two words---Hope and Change---they are just part of the "groundswell of grassroots support."

Um, SDW, you may note that my list was about why minorities are unlikely to start voting Republican, now or in the future. Given the inevitable tide of demographics, this is also why the Republican Party has entered a period of inexorable decline, unless they change it up.

Now, you may be very pleased with yourself that you have an "answer" to every point. But what it boils down to is "the Republican Party certainly is not racist, because racist ad campaigns are 'true', and right wings mythologies about how the Democrats use shiftless, uncomprehending Negroes to seize power are 'true', and 'get tough on crime' initiatives that inevitably put more black people in prison are 'efficacious', and 'states rights' isn't code for 'do as you will with your darkies' but simply respect for local government, and keeping minorities apprised of their voting rights and suggesting they speak up when they are abridged is much the same as attempting to deny those same minorities the right to vote via disinformation campaigns.

So naturally, given time, minorities will come to love the party that believes they are too stupid to realize they are being used and which routinely slanders them as criminal, scary, abnormal, and in general a menace to society. Oh, and as a bonus, tells them that what they're seeing with their own fucking eyes isn't happening, so just shut up about it, already. Because noticing is racist.

The recent attempt to demonize Acorn is a case in point. The folks that Acorn work with know better. When they hear the Republicans wax hysterical about how Acron is some kind of extremist, illicit organization, they know what's going on. And they'll remember. Explaining to such folks, again, that they don't know what they know is not a winning strategy, no matter how such talk riles up the base. The base is shrinking. Time to broaden your horizons.

There's really nothing to argue about, because this will work itself out in time. If you really want to make sure that conservative principals remain forever yoked to a suicidally short sighted cultural strategy, just keep making the arguments you're making now.

In a few years you can be very, very upset that the ever growing "minority" populations just aren't "getting it", and the Republicans can run campaigns which explain to them what idiots and dupes they are.

[jimmac]

An interesting read.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/king.ohio.race/index.html

Democrats target voters who think race is an issueStory Highlights
Union leader says some white members won't vote for Obama because of race

Mailings, phone calls, face-to-face meetings rebut anti-Obama rumors

AFL-CIO campaign will include 70 million phone calls to households in key areas

Dems see economy helping sway voters who felt race was an issue



When it gets real bad, and they never -- with this one -- look you in the eye, 'Well, I can't vote for him,' " McEntee told the diverse union audience. "This doesn't even come out in code -- it comes out like this: 'I can't vote for him because he is a black man. He's not one of us.' Well, sisters and brothers, when you hear that, you know what you ought to say? This is what I say: 'That is bull----! That is total, absolute bull----!' "

The member might answer, "'Gerry, I know, I like you, but he's a Muslim. Barack Obama is a Muslim,' " McEntee says. "But he's not even a Muslim; he's a Christian!"



After listening to what happened at a recent McCain rally where he tried to calm down a stirred up crowd and this it's not difficult to see there might be some racism here.

[midwinter]

Then you must surely know. Perhaps you can explain it to us?

No. I want you to. You said


I think they're talking about small town life and values. But I realize certain folks don't believe in those.

I just want to know what you, and perhaps Sarah Palin, think they are.

[midwinter]

My god is an awesome god (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5fdzji2C54&eurl=http://www.google.com/reader/view/).

[addabox]

My god is an awesome god (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5fdzji2C54&eurl=http://www.google.com/reader/view/).

I love that. Not just because it's psychotic, but because it's a certain kind of extra special psychotic.

I, for one, welcome an American future wherein political campaigns are regarded as polytheistic cage matches.

[screener]

My god is an awesome god (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5fdzji2C54&eurl=http://www.google.com/reader/view/).
And my god sucks ass.

[addabox]

And my god sucks ass.

Your god is Larry down at the bus station?

[Bergermeister]

Check out the photo here. Outside an Obama event.

"Ohio Christians Against Baby Murdering Muslims For President"

Wow, what a display of Christianity at it's best!


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/religulous.html

[Bergermeister]

No. I want you to. You said



I just want to know what you, and perhaps Sarah Palin, think they are.


Me, too, because I'm from a very small town in the South and nothing Palin says appeals to me.

[BRussell]

Obama winning in 3 weeks is going to see a helluva lot of heads bursting. Think how bad it was when Clinton won, and he was a southern white male who cheated on his wife, i.e., the prototypical American. When Obama wins? Psychological implosion.

[screener]

Your god is Larry down at the bus station?
I'm on dial up here, youtube takes to long.
Just down on religious freaks and felt like posting that.

Sorry Larry, if you got wireless, I apologize, if not, pass it along please addabox.

[screener]

Okay addabox, I just got it, but wasn't it an airport, not bus station?

[Flounder]

Check out the photo here. Outside an Obama event.

"Ohio Christians Against Baby Murdering Muslims For President"

Wow, what a display of Christianity at it's best!


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/religulous.html

Awesome and sad all at once. The look on that guy's face just projects an aura of "pathetic loser who's deeply unhappy with my life so I take it out on others."

[midwinter]

Okay addabox, I just got it, but wasn't it an airport, not bus station?

OMG I just got it, too. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

[addabox]

Okay addabox, I just got it, but wasn't it an airport, not bus station?

Actually I was just being random, but come to thing of it: yes!

All roads lead to Republican horribleness.

[screener]

Actually I was just being random, but come to thing of it: yes!

All roads lead to Republican horribleness.
Yeah, all's well that ends........ in the dumpster, shitter etc.

[trumptman]

Turns out with a bit of searching that it isn't hard to find the similar Democratic exceptions that of course by the reasoning of some, are driven by rhetoric from the campaigns. Sure no one can point at this rhetoric, but it must exist otherwise the people wouldn't right?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xn_O-mM2sFk/SPOZPwiBEfI/AAAAAAAAB2A/2izW28nIBOo/s1600/wowersinteesjpeg-tm.jpg

Some more... (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/12/crush-the-obamedia-narrative-look-whos-gripped-by-insane-rage/)

[hardeeharhar]

Turns out with a bit of searching that it isn't hard to find the similar Democratic exceptions that of course by the reasoning of some, are driven by rhetoric from the campaigns. Sure no one can point at this rhetoric, but it must exist otherwise the people wouldn't right?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xn_O-mM2sFk/SPOZPwiBEfI/AAAAAAAAB2A/2izW28nIBOo/s1600/wowersinteesjpeg-tm.jpg

Some more... (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/12/crush-the-obamedia-narrative-look-whos-gripped-by-insane-rage/)
What? All I can see is that you are stretching it here Nick. Equivocating and stretching.

[trumptman]

Is claiming I am stretching and equivocating addressing my motivations or the actual content?

[midwinter]

Is claiming I am stretching and equivocating addressing my motivations or the actual content?

Stretching isn't a negative term when you consider that in a cabinet you need a team effort going forward with a governor's agenda. Our agenda has been to find efficiencies in every department. And make sure that we are serving the people of Alaska.

[addabox]

Very, very pleased to be cleared of any legal wrongdoing ... any hint of any kind of unethical activity there.

[hardeeharhar]

Is claiming I am stretching and equivocating addressing my motivations or the actual content?
content, why else would I have posted the comment?

This is the second such time you have asked for me to clarify if I am attacking you; both times I have not been.

[trumptman]

content, why else would I have posted the comment?

This is the second such time you have asked for me to clarify if I am attacking you; both times I have not been.

I guess because I don't see what is gained by characterizing the content with personal attributes. How exactly does the content stretch itself? How does the material equivocate? How does content engage in verbs?

[FloorJack]

This thread seems about done. It was fun. After Barack is president it will be a whole harder for his defenders to cry "racism" or "Wallace" or whatever.

[midwinter]

This thread seems about done. It was fun. After Barack is president it will be a whole harder for his defenders to cry "racism" or "Wallace" or whatever.

Why on earth would you think that? Obama being elected president will almost certainly make people feel even more free to make racist comments.

[addabox]

Why on earth would you think that? Obama being elected president will almost certainly make people feel even more free to make racist comments.

I guess that if slightly over 50% of us are willing to vote for a black guy for president, it means the other slightly less than 50% can't possibly be racist.

[hardeeharhar]

I guess because I don't see what is gained by characterizing the content with personal attributes. How exactly does the content stretch itself? How does the material equivocate? How does content engage in verbs?
Um. Look, if you really wanted to bait me into insulting you, there are better ways.

Your post was equivocating and stretching to link actions by Obama's supporters unsupported by anything Obama said to actions of McPalin's supporters as a direct result of things they have said.

It would be an ad hom if my post didn't directly address the content of your post. It did. It wasn't personal. You are trying, desperately hard, to make it personal. The thing is I don't care if you think it was personal. You are wrong. You are extending this conversation into areas unrelated to the topic at hand, which, while not going against the rational for lundy's rules is certainly against its spirit of keeping these discussions clean and focused.

[trumptman]

Um. Look, if you really wanted to bait me into insulting you, there are better ways.

Your post was equivocating and stretching to link actions by Obama's supporters unsupported by anything Obama said to actions of McPalin's supporters as a direct result of things they have said.

It would be an ad hom if my post didn't directly address the content of your post. It did. It wasn't personal. You are trying, desperately hard, to make it personal. The thing is I don't care if you think it was personal. You are wrong. You are extending this conversation into areas unrelated to the topic at hand, which, while not going against the rational for lundy's rules is certainly against its spirit of keeping these discussions clean and focused.

What things have Palin and McCain said that directly call for someone to be killed or linked to treason? The logical leaps are that the "code word" must be there to activate that thinking since herds of two Republican supports are now mouthing those words.

I'm asking you rather than merely reporting you. If you prefer, I'll just report in the future. If you PM Lundy I have no doubt that making claims about how I am posting rather than addressing the content is an ad-hom. I'm trying to get you to see that rather than take a ten day vacation not because I want to bait you but because I prefer to keep you here.

Also Obama did say the following...

“I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face,” he said.

That is a direct call to confront, not to discuss. The actions linked to directly support that sentiment.

[FloorJack]

Why on earth would you think that? Obama being elected president will almost certainly make people feel even more free to make racist comments.

The topic of this thread is people playing the race card to deflect legitimate criticism of Obama.

[Bergermeister]

Imagine Tom is standing beside Beth.
Beth has a gun and is pointing it at Erik.
Beth says she wants to kill Erik.
If Tom does nothing and Beth blows Erik away, then Tom is also of accessory to murder.
Tom can always say he didn't think she meant it, but that won't bring Erik back.

If the crowds at these rallies scream "kill him" and what not, Palin and McCain have a moral obligation to do something (what is for another discussion). A one off is one thing, but there have been repeated occurrences, thus requiring action. Videos were posted pretty soon after events and the Secret Service actually investigated one incident.

Some conservative wrote recently that the US has a history of assassinations and the leaders must lead the sheeple away from violent moods if possible.