Apple announces new 13-inch MacBook

[TBell]

Perhaps, it was the Classic buy on the rumor, sell on the news. People are not holding stocks long in today's market. People were cashing in on profits they made by buying in at 89.

If you think investors are lovin' what they saw today, then I don't know what to tell ya. :err:

AAPL will recover, but not based on anything that came out of today's event. This was a 'stay the course' refresh, that also unfortunately re-affirmed Apple's reluctance to eat Dell's, HP's, etc's lunch in the upper reaches of the sub-$1K market.

And the pulling of FW was a slap in the face.


...

[CoreyMac]

is there any real reason to purchase the MacBook Air over the $1599 MacBook? I mean really..... the MacBook is now 0.95" and 4.5lbs.....lighter and thinner....has wayy better specs than the Air, has a backlit keyboard, LED Screen and Multitouch Glass Touchpad (Air doesnt have this)......whats the you're paying $200-$1000 more for .19" thinness and 1.5lbs lighter.......but get far less. I used to think an updated Air would be what I desired, but after today there's no reason.

[guinness]

I'm pretty disappointed.

Yeah, they'll made of aluminum, thin, DDR3, dedicated graphics, 13.3" screen, but the price just seems out of line, at least with the economy in flux. I guess the only real positive I can think of, is that they're cheap compared to some of the Sonys with 13 inch screens and DDR3. The Nvidia 9400M isn't much to talk about either, a decent boost over Intel, but not that much.

I guess I was just really expecting a $900 or so MB, just because all computer components are getting cheaper, laptops are coming with more RAM, bigger HDs, some even have Blu-Ray drives now.

Here, Apple walks out with a 160 GB HD as standard. lol. 2 GB of laptop DDR3 RAM is only about $100. I just don't care that much about a one-piece aluminum shell, to discount other features I feel should be pumped up nowadays.

[TenoBell]

Every day . . . I see listings of high quality Windows machines on the Internet (Dell, Sony, HP) for significantly less money. And, these are not wimp machines; they are pretty well full-featured.

I know, I know; they are not Macs . . . . but they are fully functional tools for students who cannot afford to shell out an extra $300 - $600 for a Macintosh. I think Apple has missed an opportunity to tap into this growing (student) market and convert those young people who will be buying computers for many, many years.

I love my Mac, but . . . . . . just thinking.

You are right these computers are usable as far as computers go. But they are not the same as the Mac.

Configure any of them (especially a Sony) with the same specs as the Mac and they will be of a similar if not more expensive cost.

[applebook]

is there any real reason to purchase the MacBook Air over the $1599 MacBook? I mean really..... the MacBook is now 0.95" and 4.5lbs.....lighter and thinner....has wayy better specs than the Air, has a backlit keyboard, LED Screen and Multitouch Glass Touchpad (Air doesnt have this)......whats the you're paying $200-$1000 more for .19" thinness and 1.5lbs lighter.......but get far less. I used to think an updated Air would be what I desired, but after today there's no reason.

Nope, I've said long ago that if the new MB features an LED display, aluminum, and a backlit keyboard that the Air is completely ridiculous for 99% of the market. I personally have no use for a far inferior machine with a higher price tag just because it is thinner but not smaller in width and length (not to mention the Core shutdown issues).

[applebook]

The Nvidia 9400M isn't much to talk about either, a decent boost over Intel, but not that much.


The 9400 is much, much faster than the Intel GPU. The 9400 is also slightly faster and more efficient than the 8400 in the Sony SZ (which is a direct competitor).

[TenoBell]

Nope, I've said long ago that if the new MB features an LED display, aluminum, and a backlit keyboard that the Air is completely ridiculous for 99% of the market. I personally have no use for a far inferior machine with a higher price tag just because it is thinner but not smaller in width and length (not to mention the Core shutdown issues).

At its price and functionality the Air was never meant for 99% of the market. The thinness and 1.5 pound difference can make a huge difference for someone who carries a notebook frequently along with books and papers and such.

[pooped]

can't you use a firewire-usb adapter??? or is that intrinsically wrong???
if not then its a big loss, but you all told me to buy triple interface HD and dvd externals
maybe apples solution is for timemachine to be "bootable" using superduper
boy am i glad i got triple iterface peripherals

no you can't:
some software is just really picky on what kind of port you use. if you would put an adapter from either ethernet of USb to firewire, the software would still see the USB or ethernet port (to the tech people on here: correct me if I'm wrong).
I have a couple of firewire audio interfaces that I use, mainly because I can daisy chain them together.

but to give some examples: the presonus firewire interface wouldn't even work on the newer MBP's because the firewire port on those was incompatible, eventhough it was a FW400, just a different type. also: I have one USB audio interface (mbox), that will only work on my frontside USB port, not the backside one (I have a blackBook). software can be THAT picky.
and especially with audio: if things aren't 100% compatible you can get pops, cracks and shutdowns. which is killing during a recording session.

now these interfaces aren't only used by pros, but everybody that makes music seems to have one: whether you are in a band, a singer/songwriter or a DJ. by including garageband in their OS package, apple has made a lot of music lovers into wannabe rockstars, and I see more and more people buying themselves into it.
but I might be biased because almost everybody I know does something with music, sound or film and a lot were waiting to upgrade their old portable computers.

for most of them the choice between $1000 or $2000 for a firewire option is just crazy, especially if you don't earn pro-money or want to carry around a bigger bag for the bigger laptop. now if only the whiteBook had better graphics, or the new macBook a firewire port.

PS: I did send in a complaint to: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html
please everybody else do the same.

[pilottage]

Panasonic HD cameras that use USB ports (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Camcorders/Hi-Def-Camcorders.list.75053_11002_7000000000000005702)

JVC HD cameras that use USB ports (http://camcorder.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=PRD1208000&pathId=141)

Canon HD cameras that use USB ports (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=173)

Common what about legacy firewire? we have tons of pro stuff driven by firewire !!!!!! How do you connect to an Audio Firewire Motu for example?? I have the V4HD......www.V4hd.com (http://www.v4hd.com/) :no:

[iijuanii]

PLEASE!!

someone tell me if the step from 2.0 GHS to 2.4 significant.

does it outweigh the cost???
what improvement will i actually** notice.??

[TenoBell]

Common what about legacy firewire? we have tons of pro stuff driven by firewire !!!!!! How do you connect to an Audio Firewire Motu for example?? I have the V4HD......www.V4hd.com (http://www.v4hd.com/) :no:

With any computer other than a MB or Air.

[FuturePastNow]

In six months (give or take a few), the $999 white Macbook is going to go away, and be replaced with a $1099 aluminum model. After manufacturing costs go down and everyone willing to spend $300 extra for AL has done so.

[infinitespecter]

ok good point about the cars, but the 'premium' cars you talk about still have very good specs, these macbooks have entry level specs.


The two most immediate competitors to the MacBook I can think of are the Sony VAIO SR and the Dell XPS M1310. When priced to be somewhat similar to the top end MacBook, they were both over $1700 with lesser specs.

sorry dont know what you're talking about with the Viper ACR and the Corvette ZR-1, the rest of the world doesn't import sh*tbox american tractors.

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about what they are talking about. Try telling anyone on a car board that and you'll get laughed out of the place. First computers, now cars; your ignorance knows no bounds.

[applebook]

In six months (give or take a few), the $999 white Macbook is going to go away, and be replaced with a $1099 aluminum model. After manufacturing costs go down and everyone willing to spend $300 extra for AL has done so.

I concur with this prediction.

[applebook]

Spoken like someone who knows nothing about what they are talking about. Try telling anyone on a car board that and you'll get laughed out of the place. First computers, now cars; your ignorance knows no bounds.

He forgot to include the Ford GT in his list of *(&)&*(&* American cars. :lol:

Top Gear Aussie tested the new 800(?) horse power Ford GT, which made me drooooooooooooool.

Still, the Stig was able to beat the Nissan GT-R by only a bit over a second, despite the Nissan's being limited in top speed because of the restrictive chip.

This test doesn't say that much about the Ford GT (which is amazing) as it does about the unbelievable Nissan GT-R, which has become my under $250,000 dream car.

...nothing to do with Macs, just ranting... :lol:

[TenoBell]

PLEASE!!

someone tell me if the step from 2.0 GHS to 2.4 significant.

does it outweigh the cost???
what improvement will i actually** notice.??

About 10% difference. 2.4GHz was about 3 seconds faster in a speedmark test.

[ALBIM]

In six months (give or take a few), the $999 white Macbook is going to go away, and be replaced with a $1099 aluminum model. After manufacturing costs go down and everyone willing to spend $300 extra for AL has done so.While this may be true, people were looking for even lower prices then the $1099 price tag. People (or at least I was) were looking for something around the $799-$999 price tag. Guess I'll look at a Sony or Dell with Ubuntu :/

Didn't want to do it, but Apple has pushed me away.

[Erunno]

PLEASE!!

someone tell me if the step from 2.0 GHS to 2.4 significant.

does it outweigh the cost???
what improvement will i actually** notice.??

It really depends on what you are doing. Strongly CPU-bound tasks will run slower on the 2.0 GHz model, I highly doubt that the higher FSB will even out the slower CPU as it mostly affects the speed between CPU and memory.

[backtomac]

In six months (give or take a few), the $999 white Macbook is going to go away, and be replaced with a $1099 aluminum model. After manufacturing costs go down and everyone willing to spend $300 extra for AL has done so.

Exactly.

Steve will say they didn't sell well. Everyone wants the Aluminum MB.

The interesting thing is how prior to the event today analysts were sure Apple was going to get into the sub $1000 market in a meaningful way and how this was going to be a big deal. (http://www.cnbc.com/id/27161482)

Looks like the sub $1000 MB is just around to clear out inventory. I'd be surprised if there is a sub $1000 laptop in the Apple lineup a year from now.

Time will tell.

[applebook]

Here is a quick Windoze benchmark for the 2 versus 2.4:
http://optimitza.cat/news/2008/09/17/laptop-processor-benchmark-comparison-intel-core-2-x9100-x9000-t9600-t9500-p9500-t9400-t9300-p8600-p8400-t8300-t8100-p7350/

http://optimitza.cat/Imatges/Wordpress/processadors-portatils.png

2 (P7350) - about 1750
2.4 (P8600) - about 2200

The difference is around 25-30% but will depend on the benchmark and actual use.

The older 2.4 (T8300) scores around 2100.

[applebook]

I'd be surprised if there is a sub $1000 laptop in the Apple lineup a year from now.

Time will tell.

Apple will do what the market will bear. If the company is losing money, then it will no longer be able to ignore the $999 and under segment.

[backtomac]

It really depends on what you are doing. Strongly CPU-bound tasks will run slower on the 2.0 GHz model, I highly doubt that the higher FSB will even out the slower CPU as it mostly affects the speed between CPU and memory.

The benefit of a faster FSB is greatly overstated, IMO, based on the experience of previous updates.

Compare a Rev B. MBP with a 2.16 ghz C2D and a 667mhz FSB with a Rev C. MBP and a 2.2 ghz C2D and an 800 mhz FSB (http://www.macworld.com/article/58476/2007/06/macbookprorev.html).

I don't see a big difference do you? Maybe this time will be different but Intel's chips with faster FSBs only seem to offer modest gains. Better than nothing mind you but I would go for the faster clock speed not the faster FSB.

[iijuanii]

It really depends on what you are doing. Strongly CPU-bound tasks will run slower on the 2.0 GHz model, I highly doubt that the higher FSB will even out the slower CPU as it mostly affects the speed between CPU and memory.

so do you think it's worth it for me?

I'm gonna be doing photoshop a lot.
photographer.

i could get the 2.0, upgrade to 4gbs ram, and 250 hd, and it's still cheaper than the 2.4 model.
or, upgrade the 2.4 to 4 gbs later.

what do you think?

i don't mind the glossy display btw. although i preferred matte.

[applebook]

i could get the 2.0, upgrade to 4gbs ram, and 250 hd, and it's still cheaper than the 2.4 model.
or, upgrade the 2.4 to 4 gbs later.


Do not buy RAM from Apple. You can get it for substantially less elsewhere.

In term of the CPU, the 2GHz should be enough for most users.

[ICD-EVIL]

You should be fine with the 2.0 Ghz. I'm running CS3 on a Toshiba laptop with 1.8 GHz Celeron and 512 Mb RAM.

A Macbook with 2.0 Ghz Core2 and 4GB of RAM should run amazingly fast.

[applebook]

You should be fine with the 2.0 Ghz. I'm running CS3 on a Toshiba laptop with 1.8 GHz Celeron and 512 Mb RAM.

A Macbook with 2.0 Ghz Core2 and 4GB of RAM should run amazingly fast.

I don't mean to slight, but advice like this is meaningless. Unless you have the same requirements as the person posing the question, then your experience means nothing in his context. He wasn't asking people to compare the 2GHz to a Celeron chip; he was asking about the 2.0 and the 2.4.

[iijuanii]

You should be fine with the 2.0 Ghz. I'm running CS3 on a Toshiba laptop with 1.8 GHz Celeron and 512 Mb RAM.

A Macbook with 2.0 Ghz Core2 and 4GB of RAM should run amazingly fast.

Im anticipating for the next 3/4 years too...
arent we due for software upgrades sometime within a year?

[iijuanii]

I don't mean to slight, but advice like this is meaningless. Unless you have the same requirements as the person posing the question, then your experience means nothing in his context. He wasn't asking people to compare the 2GHz to a Celeron chip; he was asking about the 2.0 and the 2.4.

thanks for clarifying.
so what do you think?
given the new ram... etc.

I'm a heavy photoshop user.
very very minimal video editing. but i will use it.

garage band. some.

[vinea]

Thanks, TenoBell. It's nice to see some posters who actually are aware of the facts and don't just make them up.

People, stop trying to compare 15-16-17 inch PC notebooks priced at $600 with the 13" MB. There is no comparison. Aside from the LED screen (and its size), the CPUs are not the same, nor are the GPUs, chipsets, features, and most importantly, the OS!

I'm not being an Apple fanboy. These are just the facts. Compare apples to apples (sorry for the pun), not apples to oranges.

I do agree with some of the complaints about Apple's going too far high-end. Apple should have released a "lesser" version of the new MB for $1000-11000.

People always whine after Apple releases a new product these days and pronounce gloom. Glossy iMac, MBA, etc. And yet, Apple market share continued to increase.

The graphic improvements now allows light gaming that was not possible before. Gaming is likely more important to students than FW. The 9400M is likely as fast as my ATI X1600 in my MBP. It's good enough for light gaming.

It can drive a 30" ACD via displayport. A win for folks wanting more real estate without needing a MBP.

The primary problem with lack of FW is for DV camcorders with FW400 ports. That should be solvable with a powered USB/FW 400 hub from somewhere. There IS a healthy Mac aftermarket and a solution should be forthcoming if something isn't already a good fit.

Frankly, when I have my full kit for video stuff I'm carrying the power supply for the camcorder, a scad of extra DV tapes, etc. One more hub is probably not a deal killer.

As I posted in the other thread...the Maxtor FW400/USB2 actually run faster in USB2 in some tests. Seagate claims the reasin is that Apple improved the USB2 drivers in Leopard.

All in all a big improvment. Shame the price isn't lower but oh well. Hopefully the mini gets a rev soon.

[infinitespecter]

The 9400M is likely as fast as my ATI X1600 in my MBP. It's good enough for light gaming.


I'm thinking the same thing. I've grown out of the desire to play games on my computer, so as long as it is fast enough for Aperture and Photoshop CS4, with the occasional flight or racing sim thrown in, I'll be happy.

[Mav]

I think you are all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I have a firewire hard drive, it has USB2 as well, no biggie.

I live in Australia, the base level MacBook 2Ghz costs 2099 bux inc. gst which works out roughly the same as the American prices including the sales tax.

Now I compare it to a Dell XPS M1330 with a 2.1ghz core 2 duo with an 8400M GS and 2GB DDR-2, its 1800 AUD sure its heaps cheaper, but its not as well made, its heavier and thicker.

Then I look at a Dell Latitude E4300, this thing is closer to the new macbook than the XPS 1330 is, it has a magnesium alloy case, its 1" thick and weights under 2kg, it has same specs as the macbook bar the gfx which are intel, and it costs 2800 AUD. It had no firewire and only 1 USB port.

Thing you all must realise is that this new macbook is an ultraportable, its not going to have all the bells and whistles.

[Cory Bauer]

Does the MacBook have the same easily replaceable hard drive as the MacBook Pro? Could a person stick their own 7200RPM drive in there if they were so inclined, since Apple doesn't offer it?

[tumbleweed]

I'm using an ancient iBook G4 Mac, and I STILL don't want to upgrade to the new MacBooks. $1299 is just too much. Try again Apple.

Absolutely! I have a 12" PowerBook G4. I use it mostly for surfing and word processing, and I don't see any reason to upgrade to a new MacBook. For users who aren't using graphics-intensive applications, I fail to see any point to the upgrade. Give me a faster machine with an LED backlit screen and longer battery life, make it no bigger than my current G4, price it at, say $1099, and I might be interested. Till then, I can wait.

[sandau]

You can't even hook this up to a standard monitor without shelling out another $29 for the DVI or VGA adapter.

Its not a lot of money but...

booo!

[TenoBell]

You can't even hook this up to a standard monitor without shelling out another $29 for the DVI or VGA adapter.

Its not a lot of money but...

booo!

This is exactly the same situation as when Apple transitioned from P2 ports to USB and FireWire 10 years ago. They did it before the larger market, eventually everyone else followed. Soon everyone will be offering Display Port.

[faintwhitenoise]

I work in a pro audio business selling recording equipment (mics, monitors, software, interfaces etc.) and not including a firewire port will have a very serious impact on the type of equipment I sell. We sell a lot of firewire audio interfaces and the Macbook will no longer be a choice for that customer. It's not always super high-end interfaces either (for the inevitable "shrug-off" argument that these will be "high-end customers" who can just simply afford to buy a Pro)- a lot of them are $200-$300 interfaces. The most bizarre part of it is that Apple trumpets it's "close relation" with a company called Apogee for audio interfaces. Apogee only makes firewire interfaces (and pci-e technically). I'm just really shocked by this move. I know this doesn't affect a lot of you guys, but it really affects my side of the world. We often find ourselves selling someone on the idea of buying a Macbook as their first introduction to a Mac (without spending a ton of money) and getting Logic Studio and an Apogee interface. Knowing that I'm going to have to try to convince this type of customer to now spend $2000 just to get firewire is just plain nuts...

[anilsudhakaran]

Really. I wonder who defined that.

[Lictor]

I'm a bit taken aback by the price points. One would think that given the economic conditions hammering the world economies that Apple would price these things a bit more competitively.

Well, in the current economic conditions, some people will make a *lot* of money. For instance, people high up in the banks that were allowed to make hoodles of money by taking every risks possible until they got nearly bankrupt and *then* got a free check from the tax-payer. They gain a lot for years, and when they should have lost, their loses were paid for by the American and European citizens.
Same for the stock market, in the last week, some people have made a lot of money with the stocks having record amplitude.
And there are some economic segments where a lot of money will be made. For instance, my boss is quite happy about the situation : he will be able to buy other companies for dirt shirt, and he will be able to hire new employees with minimal efforts and wages. This means increases income for him...

So, these people will need proper laptop to show off (not that they would use them for real) how rich they are. This is especially important in a falling economy. You can't bring the Porsche inside buildings and the Bang&Olufsen stays at home. Now, they have the new MPB. Glass display, alumium body, sci-fi sounding manufacturing process, look over function and possibilities, that's a very good nomade proxy for Bang&Olufsen in the laptop world...

[UltimateKylie]

I configured a Dell XPS M1330 to $1523
2.4 Ghz 8300 Intel
250GB HDD
128MB Nvidia 8400
LED Backlit Display
3GB of RAM (vs 2 in the Macbook)

So overall a better value with the dell. And the graphics is discrete not shared memory like on the Macbook. Both are generally aluminum, the Macbook has the multitouch where as the dell has features like fingerprint scanner, HDMI, FireWire, ExpressCard.

For $1423 you can get that with Intel X3100 if you don't game... YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

It has FireWire like most laptops and I used FireWire long before I bought my Macbook. I don't think I know a Sony without Firewire So don't spread lies that PC users don't use Firewire, and its not dead like Floppies were (replaced with CD for quite a while before it was killed). What has replaced Firewire, its still a very pro tool.

And HDMI is better than DisplayPort if you have a TV and want to transfer video and audio...
I know I'm disappointed, and a friend who was considering switch from PCs decided not 2...

[anilsudhakaran]

i work in a pro audio business selling recording equipment (mics, monitors, software, interfaces etc.) and not including a firewire port will have a very serious impact on the type of equipment i sell. We sell a lot of firewire audio interfaces and the macbook will no longer be a choice for that customer. It's not always super high-end interfaces either (for the inevitable "shrug-off" argument that these will be "high-end customers" who can just simply afford to buy a pro)- a lot of them are $200-$300 interfaces. The most bizarre part of it is that apple trumpets it's "close relation" with a company called apogee for audio interfaces. Apogee only makes firewire interfaces (and pci-e technically). I'm just really shocked by this move. I know this doesn't affect a lot of you guys, but it really affects my side of the world. We often find ourselves selling someone on the idea of buying a macbook as their first introduction to a mac (without spending a ton of money) and getting logic studio and an apogee interface. Knowing that i'm going to have to try to convince this type of customer to now spend $2000 just to get firewire is just plain nuts...

mumbo!!! Jumbo!!! Dumbo!!!

[anilsudhakaran]

I configured a Dell XPS M1330 to $1523
2.4 Ghz 8300 Intel
250GB HDD
128MB Nvidia 8400
LED Backlit Display
3GB of RAM (vs 2 in the Macbook)

So overall a better value with the dell. And the graphics is discrete not shared memory like on the Macbook. Both are generally aluminum, the Macbook has the multitouch where as the dell has features like fingerprint scanner, HDMI, FireWire, ExpressCard.

For $1423 you can get that with Intel X3100 if you don't game... YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

It has FireWire like most laptops and I used FireWire long before I bought my Macbook. I don't think I know a Sony without Firewire So don't spread lies that PC users don't use Firewire, and its not dead like Floppies were (replaced with CD for quite a while before it was killed). What has replaced Firewire, its still a very pro tool.

And HDMI is better than DisplayPort if you have a TV and want to transfer video and audio...
I know I'm disappointed, and a friend who was considering switch from PCs decided not 2...

Such a bunch of stupid morornic lies from a stupid PC user.

First of all the processor is not the same. The Dell is only 800Mhz FSB while Mac is 1066Mhz

Secondly the memory on the Mac is 1066Mhz vs the 667Mhz on the Dell.

Thirdly no software along the lines of iLife.

Fourthly - DisplayPort has many advantages over HDMI and is very powerful. It performs with relatively low power-consumption, has a low pin count and can transmit data at 10.8 Gigabits/second, supporting resolutions up to 2560x1600 (WQXGA) and possibly beyond. It can perform properly over a length of cable up to 15 meters in length, which many see as a great advantage over HDMI.

Fifthly - Multitouch vs Fingerprint scanner. Are you mentally retarded??

So get your facts right EL STUPIDO PC MORON!!!

[applebook]

Also, the XPS is not "aluminum." It contains merely some aluminum accents. Some of it is still just plastic.

I like the XPS though. They are decent values, high spec'ed, and are fairly well built for a PC laptop; plus, OS X runs almost perfectly with the current models. 8-)

[UltimateKylie]

First of all I own a 2.4ghz Macbook which I decided for over the XPS... well cuz it was 1299 and I wanted both Vista and OS X.

Second... your the idiot. I said Multitouch vs HDMI, ExpressCard, FireWire, Fingerprint Scanner.

Benchmarks performed EARLIER IN THIS THREAD showed very little difference between the new 2.4 ghz and the old 2.4ghz. The big deal with me is the drop from 2.4 to 2.0ghz in the $1299 model as well as drop of Firewire. You can get the base XPS 2.0ghz for $999 (ya not led, but 3GB of Ram, 250GB HDD) which beats the crap out of the white macbook at that same price.

Yes I will give you that iLife is nice, but Dell puts software on their and Vista has a DVD Burner, Movie Maker (which is decent) and trying to compete with iPhoto as well. Yes the Apple software is better, but Vista did do alot in create a better multimedia experience. I'm not a blind fanboi, nor a fanboi at all. I see what is good from both companies and quite enjoy my HP Slimline with WMC as my DVR and a 360 as an Extender. Most DVRs lock your content to one TV... not WMC.

If someone asked me what computer to buy, I would suggest something different based on their needs. If they loved music, and wanted to dip their toes in creating it... Macbook for sure (well the white one as some tools want Firewire). If they wanted a HTPC... Vista no doubt. I have easily had over a month uptime on it, it only reboots for updates. I watch TV everyday...

I love the tooling on the new macbook, but spec wise i'm not interested as I have an Xbox 360 and a dedicated gaming desktop that I upgrade as I need. I love the manufacturing, but I hate that it has Firewire. My $600 HP Slimline has it... its a HTPC it makes sense to enable this video device.

It also saddens me that a friend who wanted a macbook is now unsure... the only thing that would excite me is the use of the graphics in Snow Leopard to really speed up video rendering... as we need to continue to push computers to do that faster...

[4metta]

No firewire is just asinine. Backups and data transfers will take forever!! :no:

[Res]

One of my sisters and my father want to upgrade their aging macbooks, but they both need firewire for their camcorders. The lack of firewire is a major deal breaker, and they cannot afford the cost of Macbook Pros... so what are their options now?

[desides]

Longtime AI lurker, got an account just to post in this thread.

What is wrong with this community? Apple hit a home run with these models, in particular giving you guys almost everything on your long-running wish lists, and your reaction is to crack up? Absolutely amazing.

It's impossible to reply to every single post, so I'd like instead to address the more popular complaints being made.

Price increases: What? Where? Let's re-examine the announcement. Two aluminum MacBooks have been released. The lower of the two, which is the mid-tier MacBook, costs $1299; this is the same price as the prior mid-tier MacBook. The higher of the two aluminum MacBooks has increased from $1499 to $1599, a $100 increase. However, the white plastic MacBook fell from $1099 to $999, a $100 decrease. Quick, what do you get when you add 100 then subtract 100? Zero, which is how much the line's price has increased. "But I'm still paying $100 more for the top-tier MacBook," one might protest. Fine, but keep in mind that you get what you pay for. One may as well apply the same logic to the MacBook Pro line in general: why not consider it outrageous and unjust that the MacBook Pro and its predecessor PowerBook has always been priced hundreds to thousands of dollars more than the base MacBook and its predecessor iBook? "But the economy is bad right now," one might say. Personally, I dispute that assessment, but let's accept the premise: if the economy is bad, then why were you looking forward to buying a new computer in the first place? If the economy actually is bad, then you can't afford the luxury of a new computer, particularly when your current machine works just fine.

You are getting your money's worth regardless of model.

FireWire: I truly do not understand the outrage of the removal of FireWire. Has anyone paid attention to the FireWire peripheral market? Doubtful, because it barely exists. FireWire is, to put it generously, a near-dead standard. It was never widely adopted in the first place. USB soundly won the war in a manner reminiscent of VHS' triumph over Betamax. But, okay, there are people who own FireWire-based devices, such as external hard drives and video cameras. If FireWire is an absolute necessity, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Buy a dual FireWire/USB hub. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833314028)

Glossy screen: Again, I don't understand the outrage. Actually, in a sense, I do: who wants half their screen rendered unwatchable by unsightly glare from light fixtures, windows, or natural sunlight? Well, guys, there are plenty of good reasons to have a glossy screen that have already been touched on, primarily by graphics artists, and I'm not going to repeat what they've had to say. If a matte screen is an absolute necessity, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Buy a matte screen filter.

Blu-Ray: This I can understand, being an avid Blu-Ray fan. But, folks, Blu-Ray slot drives simply are not cost-effective enough to warrant inclusion in machines that are already being criticized for price increases. If the aggregate is already of the opinion that the MacBook costs too much, imagine the bottom line of a Blu-Ray-equipped MacBook. Why do the "poor economy" arguments apply only to the $100 price increase/decrease, but not to the potential price of a MacBook with a Blu-Ray drive? If you want to watch movies on the go, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Put movies on your hard drive. Use iTunes.

Meanwhile, in the midst of all this complaining about the display/bezel/form factor, I have not seen the following point raised: what type of display does the MacBook use? Has Apple taken the opportunity to install 8-bit display panels? Who supplies the display panels? Has the color banding issue, which appeared in Q1/Q2 MacBooks manufactured with Samsung display panels, been corrected? I bought and returned three MacBooks that had this same issue and decided to wait for the oft-rumored aluminum MacBook. After deciding to upgrade the MacBook's GPU, did Apple give consideration to what their output will look like? I'll buy the $1299 model and find out.

Get a grip, AI community. You're better than this.

[PB]

Longtime AI lurker, got an account just to post in this thread.

What is wrong with this community? Apple hit a home run with these models, in particular giving you guys almost everything on your long-running wish lists, and your reaction is to crack up? Absolutely amazing.

While I generally agree with you, there is one point where Apple really has shot its own foot: Firewire. And no, a dual hub is not a solution; the fuss is partly only about peripherals. It is also about Target Disk mode and Migration Assistant. You kiss bye-bye these two (they don't work through USB), or you use probably the wireless alternative (there must be something like that, no?) armed with much patience and luck so that your wireless router does not crash in the middle of data transfer, since typically this is going to take hours.

This is not like previous transitions, when some old technology was abandoned for something new and better and we had the usual complains about peripheral compatibility. Now Apple just removed a very useful in-house developed connectivity without proposing an alternative (like it did with the DisplayPort). This is just... irrational.

I find the features of the new Macbooks really great and I was ready to buy a new one to replace my black one which is still under warranty. But with no FW and the price increase (50 euros up) I will hold off.

EDIT: I am probably mistaken on the price increase, it may be much more; check out the UK pricing thread (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=91958).

[infinitespecter]

Price increases: What? Where?
You are getting your money's worth regardless of model.


Agreed, a comparable Dell or Sony to the Macbook costs more by a few bucks to a few hundred bucks.

If FireWire is an absolute necessity, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Buy a dual FireWire/USB hub. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833314028)


So you are suggesting that we buy a dual USB FW hub? What good would that do? You do realize that it still requires both the FW and USB ports on the computer to function, right?


Blu-Ray: This I can understand, being an avid Blu-Ray fan. But, folks, Blu-Ray slot drives simply are not cost-effective enough to warrant inclusion in machines that are already being criticized for price increases. If the aggregate is already of the opinion that the MacBook costs too much, imagine the bottom line of a Blu-Ray-equipped MacBook.

Exactly why a BD drive should be an option like it is on VAIOs. I'd gladly pay $500 over sticker for the option to have one.

If you want to watch movies on the go, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Put movies on your hard drive. Use iTunes.

Meanwhile, in the midst of all this complaining about the display/bezel/form factor, I have not seen the following point raised: what type of display does the MacBook use? Has Apple taken the opportunity to install 8-bit display panels? Who supplies the display panels? Has the color banding issue, which appeared in Q1/Q2 MacBooks manufactured with Samsung display panels, been corrected? I bought and returned three MacBooks that had this same issue and decided to wait for the oft-rumored aluminum MacBook. After deciding to upgrade the MacBook's GPU, did Apple give consideration to what their output will look like? I'll buy the $1299 model and find out.

Get a grip, AI community. You're better than this.


You realize that movies are only one use for a BD burner, right? A BD-R holds 25GB worth of data, and it would make backing up a whole lot less cumbersome.


Meanwhile, in the midst of all this complaining about the display/bezel/form factor, I have not seen the following point raised: what type of display does the MacBook use? Has Apple taken the opportunity to install 8-bit display panels? Who supplies the display panels? Has the color banding issue, which appeared in Q1/Q2 MacBooks manufactured with Samsung display panels, been corrected? I bought and returned three MacBooks that had this same issue and decided to wait for the oft-rumored aluminum MacBook. After deciding to upgrade the MacBook's GPU, did Apple give consideration to what their output will look like? I'll buy the $1299 model and find out.


They went on about more accurate color, so I assume it is an 8 bit panel, but you'd probably have an easier time finding out about Area 51 than Apple giving you that info.


Get a grip, AI community. You're better than this.

Wrong again. :lol:

[applebook]

Some of you folks need to understand where the complaints are coming from.

While it is true that the new MB is actually cheaper than comparable machines from Sony and Dell, the complaints are that there is no low-end model to compete with the lower-end Dells and Sonys.

The plastic MB at $999 isn't quite as good as the cheapest M1330 that one can buy.

Sure, the MB competes well with the high-end Sonys and Dells, but many consumers aren't looking to buy a higher-end machine; they want something cheaper.

[applebook]

I don't know of any laptop LCDs that are genuinely 8-bit. Most are dithered + 6-bit TN.

[TBaggins]

Sigh. With Apple screwing the pooch with no FireWire on the 'luminum models, looks like my new machine, if I bother to get one, is going to be the old white plastic model.

Well, at least it has FireWire. :\

...

[applebook]

Sigh. With Apple screwing the pooch with no FireWire on the 'luminum models, looks like my new machine, if I bother to get one, is going to be the old white plastic model.

Well, at least it has FireWire. :\

...

The good news is that for those who need FW and want an inexpensive Mac, refurbished units have dropped substantially in price.

[EauVive]

Well, I was quite right after all. The 2.4 MHz MacBook is charged € 1,250 tax excluded (1,500 € with sales tax). That means a 1.28 exchange rate, which is pretty close the 1.35 actual rate. Besides, I can get the educational discount, so it's gonna be an extra € 100 off for me.

This machine is perfect for developement and editing. I don't care about Firewire. I don't care about BlueRay. I do care about video output and CPU speed, obviously. From 2 to 2.4 GHz, that's a 20 % increase, and if I can reduce the compiling time by that amount, it's great. No to speak about intensive CPU applications like simulation, 3D design or GIS stuff.

The only drawback I see is the nasty 5400 rpm drive. I think I'll change it for a 7200. That should improve both compiling time and database performance.

Well, it is also a matter of not giving any penny to Bill and its fellows…

[mcarling]

Apple did not invent Firewire. Sony did. Apple were an early adopter, but they still have to pay Sony royalties to use it.

Among the existing Macbook users, how many use Firewire? 1%? (I don't).

If Firewire costs $10, does it make sense to include it in the Macbook when 99% users don't use it?
Yes, about 1% of existing MacBook users have ever plugged anything into their Firewire port. However, 50% of Mac buyers come from the PC world. That percentage is higher for MacBook buyers. So, probably under 0.5% of new MacBook buyers have ever used Firewire and only a (probably large) fraction of that <0.5% own Firewire peripherals.

How much would it have cost Apple to include a FireWire port on the MacBook? $3-$5 at the very most per unit? I'd have given 'em an extra $30 for it.
Apple probably have to pay about that to Sony just for licensing. Add to that the cost of components, manufacturing, development, testing, weight, battery life, etc. and the benefits just don't justify the costs.

I realize that's inconvenient for owners of Firewire peripherals. Firewire lost against USB in the market. It was clear about ten years ago when Intel dropped their plans to include Firewire as a standard chipset feature when the licensing negotiations with Sony broke down. Anyone who bought Firewire devices after that should have known that, eventually, they would be obsolete. Life goes on.

[TBaggins]

Apple did not invent Firewire. Sony did. Apple were an early adopter, but they still have to pay Sony royalties to use it.


You sure? From Wikipedia:

FireWire is Apple Inc.'s name for the IEEE 1394 High Speed Serial Bus. It was initiated by Apple and developed by the IEEE P1394 Working Group, largely driven by contributions from Apple, although major contributions were also made by engineers from Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, and INMOS/SGS Thomson (now STMicroelectronics).


I also seem to recall reading somewhere a couple of years back that Apple was collecting royalties, albeit small, from other companies that used FW in their products.

-

[mcarling]

I believe the old white MacBook is still being offered only because Apple have a lot of components in the pipeline. I expect it to be discontinued by MWSF. We should then see a version of the new MacBook at $999 or $1099. I'm not sure how Apple could reconfigure the new MacBook to cut costs by $200 or $300. Dropping the internal optical drive would be the obvious first step. Cutting back to 1GB of RAM would not save enough money to be worthwhile. Anyone know when Intel's next CPU price cut is due?

[PB]

I believe the old white MacBook is still being offered only because Apple have a lot of components in the pipeline. I expect it to be discontinued by MWSF. We should then see a version of the new MacBook at $999 or $1099.
Prices will go down but not so fast. Give it one revision (at least six months from now) and after that we will see.

[jowie74]

I realize that's inconvenient for owners of Firewire peripherals. Firewire lost against USB in the market. It was clear about ten years ago when Intel dropped their plans to include Firewire as a standard chipset feature when the licensing negotiations with Sony broke down. Anyone who bought Firewire devices after that should have known that, eventually, they would be obsolete. Life goes on.
Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. Firewire beats USB hands down on the Mac, because USB is incredibly slow and inefficient on the Mac compared to the PC. If they are truly going to ditch Firewire in Macs altogether, they're going to have to sort out the Mac USB problem... Otherwise all PC switchers are going to do is moan about how much better their old PC handled USB peripherals.

:no::no::no:

[vinea]

With just days to go before Apple announces the results of its fourth fiscal quarter, new data from market research firm Gartner has the Mac maker snagging a near 10 percent share of the US PC market for the three month period ending September, with its unit shipments growing more than six times the industry average.
...
Apple's gains come in spite of market forces working against it, Gartner says. The average selling price of a PC has continued to drop in part thanks to netbooks, which often sell for under $500 and accounted for as much as five percent of the US market; Apple hasn't involved itself in this arena. Moreover, this attempt to consciously lower prices isn't thought to have had the intended effect.

"Despite the back to school sales season, the U.S. home market did not see its typical seasonal spike during the quarter," Gartner analyst Mika Kitagawa says. "The continued decline of the average selling price... did not stimulate sales as much at the vendors had hoped."

MacBooks are seen as having largely bucked this trend by appealing to education and home users, which are currently less reactive to a weak market than businesses.


This article explains Apple's target demographics for the Macbook: home and education users (aka students). FW likely plays a small part for most students given they have later versions of iPods, and take a lot of thier photos and movies with their phones or webcams for youtube.

For the fledgling movie maker the bar is now set by the $2699 MSRP Canon 5D Mark II. 1080p @ 30fps although you are limited to 12 minute scenes. From a digital SLR.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/

Data interface? USB2.

The damn thing compares with the Z1E and XLH1 favorably. And the ISO numbers are freaking impressive. The primary downsides are no 24p mode and a 4GB clip limit.

There are HD camcorders and regular camcorders with USB2 output. Yes, it's annoying if you already have a lot of FW devices but if you're a student heading off to college with a current iPod, DS or PSP and phone it FEAKING DOESN'T MATTER.

And there is your target demographic that has not yet been affected by the economic downturn. Not being able to play WoW has likely affected more MB purchases than the availability (or lack thereof) of a FW port.

And for every music pro that believes Apple threw them under the bus there's probably another pro out there going "Cool...I can drive a 30" ACD for photoshop without buying a freaking MBP now".

[vinea]

Unfortunately it's not quite that simple. Firewire beats USB hands down on the Mac, because USB is incredibly slow and inefficient on the Mac compared to the PC. If they are truly going to ditch Firewire in Macs altogether, they're going to have to sort out the Mac USB problem... Otherwise all PC switchers are going to do is moan about how much better their old PC handled USB peripherals.

:no::no::no:

As noted above, Seagate claims that Apple improved their USB2 transfer rates in Leopard which is why their Maxtor HDD with FW400/USB2 was even up in the speed tests. Now the drive itself isn't a speedster but many of the portable drives are not.

And GigE is faster than FW400.

[PXT]

To be fair they did actually drop the price of the MacBook to $999 from $1099 and included a Superdrive as standard (about time, it was embarrassing to still have combo-drives in the low end laptops). So in actual fact, MacBooks got cheaper today.

Yes and I think there is a critical point here. That Apple's products require longer R&D than most and were not designed to go live in an economic crash. They cannot drop their prices as it would set a bad precedent for years to come. These were designed to be premium products against a background of cheap PCs.

So they have dropped the price of a SuperDrive macbook and have kept open a manufacturing line that they probably intended to close. The white macbook is reducing their margin and is only there so that people can buy a macbook in these bad times.

[jowie74]

As noted above, Seagate claims that Apple improved their USB2 transfer rates in Leopard which is why their Maxtor HDD with FW400/USB2 was even up in the speed tests. Now the drive itself isn't a speedster but many of the portable drives are not.

And GigE is faster than FW400.
That's good to know. I guess I am just clinging on to Firewire. It is a bit of a shame though... Firewire did the job of both USB and Ethernet in a nice, fast, hot-swappable interface. Not only that but most Firewire devices are self-powered, unlike USB.

It's not I'm sad to say goodbye to Firewire as much as I dislike the alternative. I just wish USB wasn't so sh*t! :mad:

[EauVive]

As noted above, Seagate claims that Apple improved their USB2 transfer rates in Leopard which is why their Maxtor HDD with FW400/USB2 was even up in the speed tests. Now the drive itself isn't a speedster but many of the portable drives are not.

And GigE is faster than FW400.

I'm quite puzzled by hearing the Mac OS X USB drivers are inefficient. After all, there are a lot of OpenSource drivers for USB out here, and I am pretty confident that Linux or FreeBSD drivers feature more than reasonable performances. I don't think porting this code to Darwin/MacOS is beyond the abilities of Apple software engineers. I am perfectly satisfied with NetBSD USB drivers, which recently added the isochronous transfer mode, and I am pretty confident that those can be imported almost directly on MacOS. That's the beauty of the BSD licence.

[hledgard]

I am still confused over all this. I do not play games on the computer, basically just word processing and Internet.

Is the new 2.0 MacBook noticeably faster than the previous white?

Is it 1/2 pound lighter?

Besides the trackpad, is there any other major gain?

Thanks !

[PB]

I'm quite puzzled by hearing the Mac OS X USB drivers are inefficient.
I don't really know what to say. I have tried USB keys on MBs and on PC laptops. Guess what... under Windows they transfer data like 2-3 times faster than under Leopard. Because of that I thought that the MB had USB1 ports but no, it is USB2.

I have not tried USB hard disks though.

[jowie74]

I am still confused over all this. I do not play games on the computer, basically just word processing and Internet.
You are the market Apple seems to be missing. The lowest end MacBook (white) is all you will need, and even then it will be more powerful than you need.

Is the new 2.0 MacBook noticeably faster than the previous white?
The speed of the white MacBook they are still selling sits between the new two in terms of speed. However what with the improvements to chipset, extra memory et al the new MacBook probably outperforms the older white model.

Is it 1/2 pound lighter?
According to the specs in The Store, yes.

Besides the trackpad, is there any other major gain?
much faster graphics, but you will probably not notice this unless you are playing games or running photo manipulation software (iPhoto, Photoshop). One "minor" omission is Firewire. But that's probably not a worry for you?

[jowie74]

I don't really know what to say. I have tried USB keys on MBs and on PC laptops. Guess what... under Windows they transfer data like 2-3 times faster than under Leopard. Because of that I thought that the MB had USB1 ports but no, it is USB2.

I have not tried USB hard disks though.
My main gripe is the USB handshaking vs Firewire. Firewire feels ten times more responsive and you see file transfers updating much much faster (like SCSI devices used to be). USB feels like sending information via WiFi. It was never designed for fast, sustained transfer rates, unlike Firewire.

[PB]

I am still confused over all this. I do not play games on the computer, basically just word processing and Internet.

Is the new 2.0 MacBook noticeably faster than the previous white?

Is it 1/2 pound lighter?

Besides the trackpad, is there any other major gain?

Thanks !
The speed difference (CPU-wise) must be small. But other than that, the new machines are quite nice: better overall construction and screen (on paper at least), lighter, new trackpad, illuminated keyboard in the high end, much faster graphics subsystem (claims about 5x faster).

[EauVive]

I don't really know what to say. I have tried USB keys on MBs and on PC laptops. Guess what... under Windows they transfer data like 2-3 times faster than under Leopard. Because of that I thought that the MB had USB1 ports but no, it is USB2.

I have not tried USB hard disks though.

Errr... There are two problems here. The first is the raw output on the USB bus. The second is the way the OS handles the file system used on the USB key.

Eg: I have a USB key divided in two partitions. One is MSDOS, the other is FFS, the native format of *BSD. Well, I can write the same file 5 to 10x faster on a FFS-formated key than on a DOS32-formated one. The clue here is not the raw transfer rate, which is basically the same, but the software operations to write down the associated metadata (repertory information, data location, etc.). Obviously the code handling MSDOS and NTFS has never been optimized under NetBSD, because it is not meant to serve as an everyday basis but just for occasional transfers, and there is no use to lose time and energy on that. On Windows, the situation is totally different.

Yet, I do agree there are some problems on MacOS X USB drivers.

Last Thursday I was attending a conference featuring the (at least in France and Canada) widely known astrophysician Hubert Reeves. He owns a Mac Book Air. I wanted to get a copy of his slideshow on my USB key. Impossible. The transfer started, but never ended (it hanged on a "5 sec remaining" message and never went on). We had to use a foreign ftp server to do this. Bummer.

I will install NetBSD together with MacOS on the MacBook I ordered this morning (btw: 8 days delay here in France) and try to do comparative benchmarks.

[PB]

I will install NetBSD together with MacOS on the MacBook I ordered this morning (btw: 8 days delay here in France) and try to do comparative benchmarks.
Interesting. You can probably start a new thread with this if you can add USB performance results under Windows too.

How are you going to install and use NetBSD? Through VMware maybe?

[pooped]

I work in a pro audio business selling recording equipment (mics, monitors, software, interfaces etc.) and not including a firewire port will have a very serious impact on the type of equipment I sell.
We sell a lot of firewire audio interfaces and the Macbook will no longer be a choice for that customer. It's not always super high-end interfaces either (for the inevitable "shrug-off" argument that these will be "high-end customers" who can just simply afford to buy a Pro)- a lot of them are $200-$300 interfaces.

The most bizarre part of it is that Apple trumpets it's "close relation" with a company called Apogee for audio interfaces. Apogee only makes firewire interfaces (and pci-e technically). I'm just really shocked by this move.
We often find ourselves selling someone on the idea of buying a Macbook as their first introduction to a Mac (without spending a ton of money) and getting Logic Studio and an Apogee interface. Knowing that I'm going to have to try to convince this type of customer to now spend $2000 just to get firewire is just plain nuts...

What is wrong with this community? Apple hit a home run with these models, in particular giving you guys almost everything on your long-running wish lists, and your reaction is to crack up? Absolutely amazing.
It's impossible to reply to every single post, so I'd like instead to address the more popular complaints being made.

FireWire: I truly do not understand the outrage of the removal of FireWire. Has anyone paid attention to the FireWire peripheral market? Doubtful, because it barely exists. FireWire is, to put it generously, a near-dead standard. It was never widely adopted in the first place. USB soundly won the war in a manner reminiscent of VHS' triumph over Betamax. But, okay, there are people who own FireWire-based devices, such as external hard drives and video cameras. If FireWire is an absolute necessity, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Buy a dual FireWire/USB hub. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833314028)
if you would have read my post two pages ago and above quote you would know that people who work with audio can't buy a hub. it just wouldn't work.
everybody here just dismisses the use for firewire because external HD work with USB and that FW-cameras are on their way out, but seriously: you can post links to HD cameras that use USB or audio interfaces who do (that are crap) all you want, but it all comes down to the same thing:

either you use your old interfaces/cameras and buy a 2000 euro macBook, or:
you buy a 1200 macBook and replace all of the above for easily more that 1000 euro's
either way you are out of a lot of extra money that really shouldn't have been like that

While I generally agree with you, there is one point where Apple really has shot its own foot: Firewire. And no, a dual hub is not a solution; the fuss is partly only about peripherals. It is also about Target Disk mode and Migration Assistant. You kiss bye-bye these two (they don't work through USB), or you use probably the wireless alternative (there must be something like that, no?) armed with much patience and luck so that your wireless router does not crash in the middle of data transfer, since typically this is going to take hours.

Yes, about 1% of existing MacBook users have ever plugged anything into their Firewire port. However, 50% of Mac buyers come from the PC world. That percentage is higher for MacBook buyers. So, probably under 0.5% of new MacBook buyers have ever used Firewire and only a (probably large) fraction of that <0.5% own Firewire peripherals.

I realize that's inconvenient for owners of Firewire peripherals. Firewire lost against USB in the market. It was clear about ten years ago when Intel dropped their plans to include Firewire as a standard chipset feature when the licensing negotiations with Sony broke down. Anyone who bought Firewire devices after that should have known that, eventually, they would be obsolete. Life goes on.

right: so according to you 0.5% of new mac buyers will own FW peripherals, eventhough I question that number, you are also forgetting about mac owners who were waiting to upgrade.
say that makes somewhere between 1-4% of macBook users.
this article about the air (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/backstage/comments/macbook-air-sales-decoded-successful-not-thrilling-means) states there are 1.433 million portable Macs sold per quarter, that's roughly 6.million portables per year.
1-4% of that is 60-thousand to 240-thousand new macBook users that need a firewire port each year!!!!

firewire might have lost in the external drive department, but for (semi)pro audio and (semi)pro video equipment it is even more a standard than it was.
and with consumers wanting to buy pro products more that they would need it, just for the name (hello macBook "pro"), I'd say that there really is a substantial need for a sub $1500 FW laptop from apple.

[EauVive]

Interesting. You can probably start a new thread with this if you can add USB performance results under Windows too.

How are you going to install and use NetBSD? Through VMware maybe?

I have meanwhile edited my post and added some consideration on the file systems, that may corrupt any attempt to do meaningful measurements.

As for the installation: http://wiki.netbsd.se/How_to_install_NetBSD_on_an_Apple_Macbook_w/core2duo

And I'm planning some work to improve support of the new hardware in the current version of NetBSD if applicable.

[womblingfree]

No Firewire in a consumer laptop? :lol:

That's a joke right?

My five year old iBook just became a better video editing option than the latest Macbook.

[Frank777]

Since Apple Support is now deleting threads (http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20081014223302211) on the topic, it's clear that a huge proportion of Mac users are expressing displeasure at the removal of Firewire and there will be implications of this in the sales numbers of the new laptops.

This is the kind of ham-fisted nonsense that Apple could have easily prevented.

• If Firewire is done as a mass consumer interface, just say so.
• If the interface was left off until the new 3200 standard is ready, just say so.
• If it will remain on all desktops and just high end laptops, just say so.
• If a USB version of Target Disk mode is in development, just say so.

The guessing game is going to hurt more than anything.
Apple just basically killed the consumer Firewire peripherals market.

If they had replaced Firewire's usefulness with USB3, then that would be one thing.
But to switch the most useful interface with a lesser quality one - and then ask for a premium price - is ridiculous.

[YTV]

2.0 vs 2.4 GHz

is the difference even noticeable ? and if it is, is it really worth the extra ?

Don't know about noticeable difference, but the fact that the price difference between the 2 processors to a company buying in Apple's volume is only $20, and the fact the backlit keyboard can't be more than $15 extra, HD difference not more than $10, should be enough to anyone not drinking the koolaid to deter them from not falling into this trap.

Sure Apple should be making money, but $300 on $45 worth of upgrades? C'mon $150 would have been fine, Apple could have made a 200+% profit on these 3 little bumps, but $300 is pretty much asinine.

[TenoBell]

This is the kind of ham-fisted nonsense that Apple could have easily prevented.

• If Firewire is done as a mass consumer interface, just say so.
• If the interface was left off until the new 3200 standard is ready, just say so.
• If it will remain on all desktops and just high end laptops, just say so.
• If a USB version of Target Disk mode is in development, just say so.

The guessing game is going to hurt more than anything.
Apple just basically killed the consumer Firewire peripherals market.

I can agree Apples silence in such cases can be counterproductive and frustrating.

If they had replaced Firewire's usefulness with USB3, then that would be one thing.
But to switch the most useful interface with a lesser quality one - and then ask for a premium price - is ridiculous.

The expensive CPU and chipset is what accounts for most of the price of the MacBook.

[TenoBell]

Don't know about noticeable difference, but the fact that the price difference between the 2 processors to a company buying in Apple's volume is only $20, and the fact the backlit keyboard can't be more than $15 extra, HD difference not more than $10, should be enough to anyone not drinking the koolaid to deter them from not falling into this trap.

Sure Apple should be making money, but $300 on $45 worth of upgrades? C'mon $150 would have been fine, Apple could have made a 200+% profit on these 3 little bumps, but $300 is pretty much asinine.

Apple charged more for the black Macbook simply because it was black and people bought them.

[pt123]

The guessing game is going to hurt more than anything.
Apple just basically killed the consumer Firewire peripherals market.

I don't think it's a guess anymore. Apple has removed Firewire from their just released computer. The Macbook was their top selling computer. Firewire was their technology. Firewire has been dumped by Apple.

[johnqh]

I want to know how many of you use Macbook as the only Mac in the household?

Apple's action is very logical - Macbook's market is totally different from MBP. MBP is likely to be the primary (or only) Mac in the house, so it gets all the goodies and more expensive. On the other hand, MB is a secondary laptop. Most likely you have another Mac in the house, which you can use to do the heavy duty work (like editing movies), or at least use that to get the DV tape to your mac.

So, my question is very simple - to all the existing Macbook owners, do you have another Mac in the household?

[Frank777]

I don't think it's a guess anymore. Apple has removed Firewire from their just released computer. The Macbook was their top selling computer. Firewire was their technology. Firewire has been dumped by Apple.

Yes. It would have helped though, if some media genius had asked if this was the case during yesterday's Q&A session.

[johnqh]

By the way, the different between Firewire vs USB is almost the same as SCSI vs IDE.

Firewire has intelligence on the device, thus faster but more expensive than USB2. SCSI has intelligence on the device, thus faster but more expensive.

When SCSI was eliminated, there was also an outcry. One of the reason people love SCSI was exactly the same - ability to boot from external drive, and ability to run Powerbook as an external SCSI drive (remember Powerbook 100? the first of this kind). When Apple switched to IDE, it wasn't possible to boot from external USB drive. Firewire was the answer to that.

But as I can remember, the outcry against eliminating SCSI was as loud as (if not louder) today.

Well, life goes on. Apple moves on. technologies move on. Not all superior technologies survive.

And by the way, I still prefer SCSI. Much much much faster.... but 99% of the population don't care.

Personally, I would rather complain about the lack of USB ports (only 2?) than the lack of 1394.

[ecking]

They should have kept at least 4 pin firewire on the macbooks. If anything needed to go it was ethernet, they've been selling a dongle for over year because "notebook users use wireless", that's what they did with the macbook air. They could have kept firewire and just chucked their usb to ethernet dongle in the box.

I've got 4 non-professional firewire devices on my desk right now and wanted the new macbook. Instead it looks like I might cave and buy the white one, which more than pisses me off.

Maybe they'll do like they did with the second revision macbook pro and add it back if everyone complains enough.

[Frank777]

Anyone who compares Firewire to SCSI has no real experience with SCSI.

SCSI was so frustrating I think I've repressed most of my memories of ever using that standard.
Having to put peripherals in a certain order, huge connectors that wouldn't connect...etc.

Firewire has been a dream by comparison.

[pt123]

Also there are lots of Firewire camcorders out there, not just hard drives.

[EauVive]

I don't think it's a guess anymore. Apple has removed Firewire from their just released computer. The Macbook was their top selling computer. Firewire was their technology. Firewire has been dumped by Apple.

Well, it's not Apple that is killing Firewire. All the wire protocols are going to fade away quickly. Wire will be replaced by waves. The Time capsule is the real future. In two years, everybody will have to switch to IPv6. Your desktop computer, your laptop, your camcorder, your iPod and your time capsule will have their own IP address. You will have a wireless connexion available almost everywhere: no need for flash memories anymore, no need for Blueray disks or mobile storage devices like Firewire-HD : your camcorder will be in direct connexion to your personal Timecapsule via IPv6 and a wireless 3/4G connexion. You will be able to upload/download data in real-time from/to home, even if you are 10 000 miles away.

Back at home, you'll maybe plug your Timecapsule to a Gb Ethernet router, if the WiFi 802.11n+++ throughput does not meet your needs...

[abbeyroadman]

Hi -

I writing this on my Gateway 14.1 inch wide-screen that I bought, new, at BB in March 2007 for $399. I wanted a MacBook, but couldn't justify the $1499 price. It's been a good unit, does everything that it is required to do for my personal and business applications and use, plus my middle school child uses it for all school related assignments. It cost $399.

So, when news of a sub-$900 MacBook began to circulate, I thought, "okay, I'll buy one". Yes, I was disappointed to read the released pricing schedule, $1,000 for the old Mac, $1,300 to $1,600 for the newest unit. Can't blame Apple, as the "rumored prices" were from others, and the new units may indeed be worth the asking prices. I cannot technically evaluate the units, but as a consumer, this $399 laptop doesn't need to be replaced as I was inclined to do just 48 hours ago. Will the prices drop as with the iPhone??

Regards,

[jmuse99]

I ordered one of the new 13" Macbooks last night only to cancel a few minutes later: no firewire? Seriously? I'm on my second 12" g4 powerbook, and due to a coffee mishap this week, will be looking for my 3rd. The rep at a local Apple Store told me to hold out; something better might be on the way. I was disappointed with the Air and now this...

Why not build a 13" Macbook Pro? Space? Heat? Scrap the internal optical drive and make it work!

j

[pt123]

Well, it's not Apple that is killing Firewire. All the wire protocols are going to fade away quickly. Wire will be replaced by waves. The Time capsule is the real future. In two years, everybody will have to switch to IPv6. Your desktop computer, your laptop, your camcorder, your iPod and your time capsule will have their own IP address. You will have a wireless connexion available almost everywhere: no need for flash memories anymore, no need for Blueray disks or mobile storage devices like Firewire-HD : your camcorder will be in direct connexion to your personal Timecapsule via IPv6 and a wireless 3/4G connexion. You will be able to upload/download data in real-time from/to home, even if you are 10 000 miles away.

Back at home, you'll maybe plug your Timecapsule to a Gb Ethernet router, if the WiFi 802.11n+++ throughput does not meet your needs...

So why not remove Ethernet?

[jmuse99]

Well, it's not Apple that is killing Firewire. All the wire protocols are going to fade away quickly. Wire will be replaced by waves.

True, but that's 5 to 10 years away. If firewire 800 is good enough for the Macbook Pro line it's good enough for the Macbook line. Either include Firewire in both lines, or make a 13" Macbook Pro.

j

[PXT]

We can now buy the best selling macbook ever, the white, with Firewire and Superdrive for less $$$.

[MiMac]

People all over the intraweb are going nuts about lack of FireWire, and rightly so.
Best form of protest (besides contacting Apple directly) is NOT TO BUY ONE.

Leave 'em on the shelf until such times as Apple see the light and 'revise' with FireWire.

Such a farce.

[EauVive]

So why not remove Ethernet?

For a very simple reason : because not everybody is WiFi-equipped these days. The building of the U I'm teaching at (that's why I've got an educational rebate) has no WiFi. So I have to use a good old Ethernet cable instead. WiFi is installed, but it does not work, for unknown reasons. I'm sure it'll be fixed some day, but when?

[rogue68]

People all over the intraweb are going nuts about lack of FireWire, and rightly so.
Best form of protest (besides contacting Apple directly) is NOT TO BUY ONE.

Leave 'em on the shelf until such times as Apple see the light and 'revise' with FireWire.

Such a farce.

Ditto the glossy-only screen options.

What a massive shame. Fantastic products with fatal, and completely avoidable, flaws.

[TBaggins]

Since Apple Support is now deleting threads (http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20081014223302211) on the topic, it's clear that a huge proportion of Mac users are expressing displeasure at the removal of Firewire and there will be implications of this in the sales numbers of the new laptops.

This is the kind of ham-fisted nonsense that Apple could have easily prevented.

• If Firewire is done as a mass consumer interface, just say so.
• If the interface was left off until the new 3200 standard is ready, just say so.
• If it will remain on all desktops and just high end laptops, just say so.
• If a USB version of Target Disk mode is in development, just say so.

The guessing game is going to hurt more than anything.
Apple just basically killed the consumer Firewire peripherals market.

If they had replaced Firewire's usefulness with USB3, then that would be one thing.
But to switch the most useful interface with a lesser quality one - and then ask for a premium price - is ridiculous.


Agreed. And it's sad that Apple Support is trying to suppress ppl expressing their viewpoints on this. It'll just make customers madder, and it won't really fix the prob. :\

Also, read my sig. 8-)

...

[TBaggins]

I can agree Apples silence in such cases can be counterproductive and frustrating.

Whoa, I actually agree with you for once.


If they had replaced Firewire's usefulness with USB3, then that would be one thing.
But to switch the most useful interface with a lesser quality one - and then ask for a premium price - is ridiculous.
The expensive CPU and chipset is what accounts for most of the price of the MacBook.

Wow... what're we trying to say here? That the two most expensive things on the MacBook are the Core2Duo CPU and FireWire, and that the cost of having FW is comparable to the cost of the Intel CPU? :???:

Seems very unlikely. Didn't they use to have FW on iPods?

...

[TBaggins]

Ditto the glossy-only screen options.

What a massive shame. Fantastic products with fatal, and completely avoidable, flaws.


+100000000. And I've seen it come down like this a number of times. :no:

You know what I think it is, this time? Steve thinks he's 'seen the future' and it's the MacBook Air.

So, the future of the MacBook is now

- remove any port that Steve deems 'unnecessary'. Absolute minimalism here.
- remove the optical drive
- sacrifice all else for 'thin, thin, thin'. Fashion statement uber alles.


Thing is, not everyone wants that, necessarily. Maybe even most don't want that. The MB Air is a niche product, more or less. It may become mainstream eventually, but it isn't there yet. So it's suitability as a template for the consumer line is questionable at this point in time.

But Steve, as per usual, is dragging everyone into HIS future, quite a bit earlier than they'd like. He's done it before. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes it doesn't.

-

[hmurchison]

You know I have to admit ...amidst the Steve Jobs' health scare a part of me
hoped that he'd retire.

Steve is Jekyll and Hyde. As a visionary he can take your breath away with some of his deft decision making but the luddite in him causes the most boneheaded decision.

The Macbook Pro has to stand on its own. You cannot continue to hobble other products in deferrence to the MBP.

if people want a 15"+ screen - MBP
If people want a discrete GPU- MBP
if people want ExpressCard- MBP

That and other MBP features are more than enough to create a line of demarcation betwen
Macbook and Macbook Pro.

Steve Jobs reality is one of those parable stories in which a person asks for something wonderful and gets it ...albeit in a most twisted and uncouth way.

[rogue68]

I've seen it come down like this a number of times. :no:

You know what I think it is, this time? Steve thinks he's 'seen the future' and it's the MacBook Air.

So, the future of the MacBook is now

- remove any port that Steve deems 'unnecessary'. Absolute minimalism here.
- remove the optical drive
- sacrifice all else for 'thin, thin, thin'. Fashion statement uber alles.


Thing is, not everyone wants that, necessarily. Maybe even most don't want that. The MB Air is a niche product, more or less. It may become mainstream eventually, but it isn't there yet. So it's suitability as a template for the consumer line is questionable at this point in time.

But Steve, as per usual, is dragging everyone into HIS future, quite a bit earlier than they'd like. He's done it before. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes it doesn't.

-

I think you're probably right and I don't think this is gonna work out great.

I've been using Macs for almost 20 years now and in every previous clanger of a gear change, the reasoning behind it has involved technological and ease-of-use improvements.

If Apple had taken away Firewire and given us USB 3, that would have made sense. If Apple had taken away the matte option as standard and made pros pay for it, that would have been annoying but, again, it would have made sense.

To strip away basic, vital functions from professional and standard consumer machines makes no sense at all. Many people - pros or not - simply will not buy laptops with glossy screens because they're harder to look at, harder to work with and are great for triggering tension headaches.

Complaints are all over the web about the firewire and screen issues now - everyone from self-proclaimed fanboys at MacWorld to Jason O'Grady, not to mention the scores of mac users on forums.

I'm sitting here with £3000 in my pocket and wondering what the hell to do with it now. I'd imagine enough other people are in the same boat to make this, at the very least, a slightly disappointing launch day for Apple. Judging by the post deletions on their own forum, I'd say it might even have been a very disappointing day.

There's a big difference between inspired leadership and vainglorious leadership.

[MiMac]

The MacBook Air is such a niche product that it may very well die in a years time.

Its a funny thing, I've been an avid supporter of Apple products over the years and have bought many pieces of Apple kit as well as recommending Macs to friends and family alike.
Now here's the thing. Just recently I have been asked for an honest opinion and purchasing advice as regards a home computer for a school child. While I really wanted to be able to recommend an Apple purchase I really could not due to three main factors.

1: The market domination of Windows PC's in schools.
2: The increasingly frustrating trend of Macs becoming more form over function (you get a better deal on a PC tech wise) , which brings me to...
3: Price. That is the real deal breaker. Never mind running Windows on a Mac via BootCamp et al. Money talks.

So the purchase of a new HP Pavillion with dual core etc. etc. was made and you know what... the thing is, it's a beautiful piece of kit and half the price of a Mac! Damn I hate myself.

The current debacle over the 'new' MacBook less FireWire has done nothing to shore up any faith that I may have had left in Apple. It looks like they are heading down the wrong path with Steve blindly leading the way, It's a one way street. HIS way. Pissing off your loyal user base is certainly not the way to go, neither is overpriced, under specced machines. "But its sooo pretty!" Who cares! Maybe it's time for Steve to go.

[hmurchison]

So the purchase of a new HP Pavillion with dual core etc. etc. was made and you know what... the thing is, it's a beautiful piece of kit and half the price of a Mac! Damn I hate myself.

The current debacle over the 'new' MacBook less FireWire has done nothing to shore up any faith that I may have had left in Apple. It looks like they are heading down the wrong path with Steve blindly leading the way, It's a one way street. HIS way. Pissing off your loyal user base is certainly not the way to go, neither is overpriced, under specced machines. "But its sooo pretty!" Who cares! Maybe it's time for Steve to go.

What Pavillion did you get. I noticed this one is pretty popular and it absolutely embarasses the wackbook in comparison.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8907953&type=product&id=1213046785694&ref=09&loc=01&srccode=cii_5766179&cpncode=23-750059-2

Less than $1300 gets you

15.4" screen
2Ghz C2D processor
4GB of RAM
320GB drive
Blu-ray playback
Digital Media Reader
256MB Dedicated video memory
Modem
HDMI and eSATA/USB combo port
Expresscard 34
Firewire

[FuturePastNow]

I want to know how many of you use Macbook as the only Mac in the household?

Apple's action is very logical - Macbook's market is totally different from MBP. MBP is likely to be the primary (or only) Mac in the house, so it gets all the goodies and more expensive. On the other hand, MB is a secondary laptop. Most likely you have another Mac in the house, which you can use to do the heavy duty work (like editing movies), or at least use that to get the DV tape to your mac.

So, my question is very simple - to all the existing Macbook owners, do you have another Mac in the household?

I still have an iBook, which is my only Mac, and when my iBook dies I will replace it with a Macbook. I have no problem whatsoever with the lack of Firewire, and I like the glossy screen. I have other computers, though, but no other Macs.

[Jiten]

Man I would kill if the higher end Macbook would have a 1440 by 900 resolution option. I'd be willing to even pay a few extra hundred for that. Also Firewire, I hardly knew thee....

You know, for those with the last generation Macbooks and Macbook PRos? I say wait for REV B. Maybe Apple could pleasantly surprise us!

[YTV]

Man I would kill if the higher end Macbook would have a 1440 by 900 resolution option. I'd be willing to even pay a few extra hundred for that. Also Firewire, I hardly knew thee....

You know, for those with the last generation Macbooks and Macbook PRos? I say wait for REV B. Maybe Apple could pleasantly surprise us!

Yes these def should have been bumped upto 1440 x 900.

EDIT: WOW, I've never really paid attention or looked at the macbook pro's as I would never even think of buying something that big or heavy, but I guess I assumed since they are always touted so highly that they would be rocking 1920 x 1200. I just looked on Apple's site and it says they are 1440 x 900. WTF??? The only 15" notebook I ever bought was a mid-grade Dell back in 2003/2004 and that had 1920 x 1200. And that was 4-5 years ago!!!

[ALBIM]

I'm typing this on an iBook G4 that has a cracked screen so it is hooked up to an old HP monitor, and I couldn't be happier. Does that convince anyway that these new laptops are nothing special?

[ryan330]

Here are my 2 Cents on the new MacBook.

The MacBook is a consumer product. It always has been and it always will be. It won't have all of the features of a Pro model. We should all be thankful that the new Macbooks were even given such great graphics among MANY other very very nice upgrades.

For me, and I would only assume many other people, the lack of a firewire is a NON ISSUE. I am a college student. I have an external hard drive and a digital camera, both of which have USB cords. Along with my printer, those are the only peripherals I use. To the average consumer, I would assume that is about all of the types of peripherals one might use. I have never once in my life needed a firewire cord other than when using old school iPods.

I don't think Steve would go out on a whim and delete a firewire port from his BEST SELLING PRODUCT EVER without extensive market research. Clearly, his research must have shown than on the whole, not a great deal of his consumers use firewire. People who are heart broken over the firewire issue are either a minority of computer users or are expecting too much out of a compact consumer apple product.

[TenoBell]

Wow... what're we trying to say here? That the two most expensive things on the MacBook are the Core2Duo CPU and FireWire, and that the cost of having FW is comparable to the cost of the Intel CPU? :???:

Seems very unlikely. Didn't they use to have FW on iPods?

...

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[TenoBell]

Panasonic AG-HMC150 (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=274232&catGroupId=112502&surfModel=AG-HMC150)

Panasonic's new AVCHD prosumer camera that records 1080i. Uses HDMI and USB ports, NO FIREWIRE.

[TenoBell]

So the purchase of a new HP Pavillion with dual core etc. etc. was made and you know what... the thing is, it's a beautiful piece of kit and half the price of a Mac! Damn I hate myself.

Its always telling when someone talks about some great PC. How often people don't tell which PC it is.

[hmurchison]

Here are my 2 Cents on the new MacBook.

The MacBook is a consumer product. It always has been and it always will be. It won't have all of the features of a Pro model. We should all be thankful that the new Macbooks were even given such great graphics among MANY other very very nice upgrades.

For me, and I would only assume many other people, the lack of a firewire is a NON ISSUE. I am a college student. I have an external hard drive and a digital camera, both of which have USB cords. Along with my printer, those are the only peripherals I use. To the average consumer, I would assume that is about all of the types of peripherals one might use. I have never once in my life needed a firewire cord other than when using old school iPods.

I don't think Steve would go out on a whim and delete a firewire port from his BEST SELLING PRODUCT EVER without extensive market research. Clearly, his research must have shown than on the whole, not a great deal of his consumers use firewire. People who are heart broken over the firewire issue are either a minority of computer users or are expecting too much out of a compact consumer apple product.

"The Macbook is a consumer product" nonsensical statement. Every Macbook until October 14th has had Firewire thus any correlation you attempt to make between Firewire being a Pro only feature will be easily repudiated.

Assuming anything is foolhardy. Technicians use Firewire often to rescue hard drives or transfer files easily using Target Disk Mode. TDM is one of those features that you might not realize the power until it saves your bacon or makes transferring files much easier. It's not gone.

All the market research in the world doesn't ameliorate the simple facts. Preceding Macbooks have always had Firewire. The relative cost of the technology must be low as Apple created the format and purchased Zyante

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ECZ/is_2002_April_5/ai_84450485

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots. What's Apple's excuse for removing a feature that is on most PC consumer laptops?

I think it's very telling that the excuses given for the removal of a feature that was replaced with nothing center around silly anecdotes or banal logic and correlations.

With connectivity ..more is almost always preferrable to less.

[ryan330]

"The Macbook is a consumer product" nonsensical statement. Every Macbook until October 14th has had Firewire thus any correlation you attempt to make between Firewire being a Pro only feature will be easily repudiated.

Assuming anything is foolhardy. Technicians use Firewire often to rescue hard drives or transfer files easily using Target Disk Mode. TDM is one of those features that you might not realize the power until it saves your bacon or makes transferring files much easier. It's not gone.

All the market research in the world doesn't ameliorate the simple facts. Preceding Macbooks have always had Firewire. The relative cost of the technology must be low as Apple created the format and purchased Zyante

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ECZ/is_2002_April_5/ai_84450485

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots. What's Apple's excuse for removing a feature that is on most PC consumer laptops?

I think it's very telling that the excuses given for the removal of a feature that was replaced with nothing center around silly anecdotes or banal logic and correlations.

With connectivity ..more is almost always preferrable to less.


I understand your points about the old MacBook, but I think you failed to understand my points about the new MacBook. Steve Jobs is not an idiot. He single handedly leads the computer industry. If he made a choice to drop a certain type of port from his best selling line of computers of all time, he must have had good evidence to support his decision. If firewire is the only means of rescuing harddrives and transferring data, then clearly this would have been a bad decision. Apple is not that stupid, however. I am not a computer EXPERT, so I can't rattle of different means of doing what you described off the top of my head, but i guarantee you there are ways to solve those issues without a firewire port. The times are changing in the computer industry and Apple clearly feels as though its time to phase out firewire.

[TenoBell]

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots. What's Apple's excuse for removing a feature that is on most PC consumer laptops?

While I agree with you in spirit. In reality is highly likely the MacBook is outselling that HP Pavilian with higher profit margins.

Do most consumers really want or care about firewire, card readers, express card slots, or HDMI ports?

[hmurchison]

I understand your points about the old MacBook, but I think you failed to understand my points about the new MacBook. Steve Jobs is not an idiot. He single handedly leads the computer industry. If he made a choice to drop a certain type of port from his best selling line of computers of all time, he must have had good evidence to support his decision. If firewire is the only means of rescuing harddrives and transferring data, then clearly this would have been a bad decision. Apple is not that stupid, however. I am not a computer EXPERT, so I can't rattle of different means of doing what you described off the top of my head, but i guarantee you there are ways to solve those issues without a firewire port. The times are changing in the computer industry and Apple clearly feels as though its time to phase out firewire.

Ryan

We're going to see. I'm just not a fan of USB nor am I an fan of computers with premium pricing without the commensurate premium hardware. The video market isn't going to be that bad but audio market is going to be affected a bit more.

[TenoBell]

Ryan

We're going to see. I'm just not a fan of USB nor am I an fan of computers with premium pricing without the commensurate premium hardware. The video market isn't going to be that bad but audio market is going to be affected a bit more.

I don't understand the "audio has to have FireWire" argument. Video needs more bandwidth than audio. The video signal is larger and has at least one sometimes two audio tracks.

[hmurchison]

I don't understand the "audio has to have FireWire" argument. Video needs more bandwidth than audio. The video signal is larger and has at least one sometimes two audio tracks.

USB is fine when you simply need to take bunch of data and send it over the pipe but where it doesn't match up to Firewire is the ability for some streams to be protected. Multitrack audio is different than video in that you can have 60 tracks and effects going off one moment and then barely anything.

I know that in audio ..many engineers just don't trust USB. Many will fork out the extra money for a MBP but at the same time they'll know they've been handled by Apple.

Firewire was the basis for Yamaha's failed mLAN technology that had audio and midi and control signals all on the same cable. USB most likely would have been a poor replacement.

[TenoBell]

USB is fine when you simply need to take bunch of data and send it over the pipe but where it doesn't match up to Firewire is the ability for some streams to be protected. Multitrack audio is different than video in that you can have 60 tracks and effects going off one moment and then barely anything.

I know that in audio ..many engineers just don't trust USB. Many will fork out the extra money for a MBP but at the same time they'll know they've been handled by Apple.


Ok I gotcha. I imagine Apple would rather these people bought MBP.

From Apple's perspective their aren't nearly as many audio engineers as their are PC switchers who have not and will not use FireWire.

[ryan330]

Ryan

We're going to see. I'm just not a fan of USB nor am I an fan of computers with premium pricing without the commensurate premium hardware. The video market isn't going to be that bad but audio market is going to be affected a bit more.

Yes, we certainly will. However, what you just described, the video market and audio market, typically buy Pro level macs, which as you know, still have a firewire port.

[backtomac]

From Apple's perspective their aren't nearly as many audio engineers as their are PC switchers who have not and will not use FireWire.

Perhaps but the audio pros also buy software like logic and that stuff isn't cheap. I'm sure they've done the math and still feel like they'll come out ahead but it's a shitty way to treat the pro users.

These were the people that kept Apple alive in the dark days.

[wfvisser]

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots. What's Apple's excuse for removing a feature that is on most PC consumer laptops?

As if apple should copy everything on PC laptops. Terrible argument.

I very much doubt that for the majority of people FW is an issue. Sure, lots of people are complaining, but many of them on behalf of a small minority. USB works well, and for that one unique FW-only device, the vast majority of users will allready have a mac in their household that still has FW.
The slight reduction in CPU speed is more than offset by the faster bus and GPU. Likely, you can get better hardware specs for this money from a cheap PC, but what does that buy you on a machine that doesn't run mac OS? The hardware specs are hardly relevant in the comparison. For the past months, all I've seen on this forum are people complaining about the GPU. You've got what you asked for, stop whining.
Personally, I've always disliked the cheap plastic MB enclosure, but can't justify getting a MBP just for that reason.

[pooped]

I understand your points about the old MacBook, but I think you failed to understand my points about the new MacBook. Steve Jobs is not an idiot. He single handedly leads the computer industry. If he made a choice to drop a certain type of port from his best selling line of computers of all time, he must have had good evidence to support his decision. If firewire is the only means of rescuing harddrives and transferring data, then clearly this would have been a bad decision. Apple is not that stupid, however. I am not a computer EXPERT, so I can't rattle of different means of doing what you described off the top of my head, but i guarantee you there are ways to solve those issues without a firewire port. The times are changing in the computer industry and Apple clearly feels as though its time to phase out firewire.

first of all: if you don't have any peripherals that use firewire you don't know what the issue is about and shouldn't even be in this discussion.

secondly: it looks like you didn't read through the whole thread, just jumped in at the end. because there are numerous posts that explain the use for firewire in different areas than just rescuing harddrives.

thirdly: some pro editing software have security built in so the user can't blame the software manufacturer for not functioning at full capacity: the software will just ignore certain peripherals when not plugged into a proper firewire port, converter plug or not.

and last: yes: the industry might be moving away from firewire in the end, but since the life-cycle of most hardware is longer than those of laptops, it would have been logical to wait until all of those have switched to a new platform and most old peripherals had died before stopping support on those. it will cost me and others like me thousands of dollars to replace those for similar USB driven ones.

and please don't anybody post another link to a camera or interface that has USB. yes there are some that do, but that doesn't help if you don't have the money to replace all of the old hardware. I'm also not going to post links here to hardware that will run on USB1.0

I don't understand the "audio has to have FireWire" argument. Video needs more bandwidth than audio. The video signal is larger and has at least one sometimes two audio tracks.

:) the audio tracks that come with film are usually at lower bitrate than pro-audio.
a typical audio interface has 8 channels of audio coming in, some midi data, and 2 to 8 channels of audio going out. it is also very common to daisy chain two or more audio interfaces together (with firewire) to be able to record more than 8 tracks at the same time (a drum kit typically already uses 10 channels alone), making sure that even more data is going through. and unlike the video transfer with a couple of glitches, you cannot try to transfer it again with audio because it was a live recording session. you will have lost the moment.
I seriously cannot see any current option other than firewire to have a smooth recording session.
and I need the laptop to be as small as possible (while having enough screen space for the software), because I already am carrying interfaces and microphones with me too. (I have a really neat suitcase that perfectly fits my macBook, an external drive and one audio interface. a 15" macBook pro would fit in). at home or in the studio I will hook it up to a larger screen.

[TenoBell]

f
and please don't anybody post another link to a camera or interface that has USB. yes there are some that do, but that doesn't help if you don't have the money to replace all of the old hardware. I'm also not going to post links here to hardware that will run on USB1.0


I keep posting links to cameras that use USB to show that video is moving away from FireWire. The only reason you wouldn't want to see the links is to not face the truth.

Whether or not you have the money to replace hardware is a different issue. You people act as though the new MacBook is your only option. If you need FireWire right now. You should just simply stay with the set up you currently have now. Or purchase an earlier MacBook. They worked perfectly fine before the new announcement. They will work perfectly fine after the new announcement.

the audio tracks that come with film are usually at lower bitrate than pro-audio.
a typical audio interface has 8 channels of audio coming in, some midi data, and 2 to 8 channels of audio going out.

Yes I know the audio is at a lower bit-rate. But Pro Audio doesn't ever have to carry both video and audio.

[backtomac]

. Or purchase an earlier MacBook. They worked perfectly fine before the new announcement. They will work perfectly fine after the new announcement.
.

I predict refurbed blackbooks will be highly sought after and will sell out quickly at the Apple store.

[ryan330]

first of all: if you don't have any peripherals that use firewire you don't know what the issue is about and shouldn't even be in this discussion.

secondly: it looks like you didn't read through the whole thread, just jumped in at the end. because there are numerous posts that explain the use for firewire in different areas than just rescuing harddrives.

thirdly: some pro editing software have security built in so the user can't blame the software manufacturer for not functioning at full capacity: the software will just ignore certain peripherals when not plugged into a proper firewire port, converter plug or not.

and last: yes: the industry might be moving away from firewire in the end, but since the life-cycle of most hardware is longer than those of laptops, it would have been logical to wait until all of those have switched to a new platform and most old peripherals had died before stopping support on those. it will cost me and others like me thousands of dollars to replace those for similar USB driven ones.

and please don't anybody post another link to a camera or interface that has USB. yes there are some that do, but that doesn't help if you don't have the money to replace all of the old hardware. I'm also not going to post links here to hardware that will run on USB1.0



:) the audio tracks that come with film are usually at lower bitrate than pro-audio.
a typical audio interface has 8 channels of audio coming in, some midi data, and 2 to 8 channels of audio going out. it is also very common to daisy chain two or more audio interfaces together (with firewire) to be able to record more than 8 tracks at the same time (a drum kit typically already uses 10 channels alone), making sure that even more data is going through. and unlike the video transfer with a couple of glitches, you cannot try to transfer it again with audio because it was a live recording session. you will have lost the moment.
I seriously cannot see any current option other than firewire to have a smooth recording session.
and I need the laptop to be as small as possible (while having enough screen space for the software), because I already am carrying interfaces and microphones with me too. (I have a really neat suitcase that perfectly fits my macBook, an external drive and one audio interface. a 15" macBook pro would fit in). at home or in the studio I will hook it up to a larger screen.


My point about peripherals: I consider myself an average consumer, being an average consumer, I have a limited amount of peripherals. I would be very surprised if the average mac consumer had more peripherals than me (camera, hard drive, printer, things like that). Guess what, the MacBook is targeted at the average consumer, not the Pro consumer.

In your "last" point, peripherals are moving over to USB more and more. Cameras, hard drives, things that the average consumer uses. If Apple is going to phase out the firewire, it makes sense to phase it out first with consumers who use firewire the least.

And then finally, in your "third" point, pro-editing software.... what percentage of the average MacBook consumer uses such programs? My guess? Less than 2%.

And in case you are interested, I read the whole thread, so don't call me out. :p

[alanpgh@gmail.com]

Here are my 2 Cents on the new MacBook.

The MacBook is a consumer product. It always has been and it always will be. It won't have all of the features of a Pro model. We should all be thankful that the new Macbooks were even given such great graphics among MANY other very very nice upgrades.

For me, and I would only assume many other people, the lack of a firewire is a NON ISSUE. I am a college student. I have an external hard drive and a digital camera, both of which have USB cords. Along with my printer, those are the only peripherals I use. To the average consumer, I would assume that is about all of the types of peripherals one might use. I have never once in my life needed a firewire cord other than when using old school iPods.

I don't think Steve would go out on a whim and delete a firewire port from his BEST SELLING PRODUCT EVER without extensive market research. Clearly, his research must have shown than on the whole, not a great deal of his consumers use firewire. People who are heart broken over the firewire issue are either a minority of computer users or are expecting too much out of a compact consumer apple product.
I bought the first Macbook sold at my local Apple store around noon today. It wasn't even on display in the store as the shipment was just delivered. Bought the 2.4GHz, 250G HD model for $1499. with the education discount. It is Absolutely Spectacular! All positive, nothing negative. What a machine!

[pooped]

Whether or not you have the money to replace hardware is a different issue. You people act as though the new MacBook is your only option. If you need FireWire right now. You should just simply stay with the set up you currently have now. Or purchase an earlier MacBook. They worked perfectly fine before the new announcement. They will work perfectly fine after the new announcement.


no they didn't.
after editing film, we have to go to a pro studio to "bounce to tape" because the previous graphics card couldn't handle that.
I was planning on selling my macBook when the new ones came out to buy that one, so I wouldn't have to hire a profession studio just to do that. now I can't, because I need firewire for it too.
giving better graphics but no firewire is like building a waterwell for a village but only supply them with a colander to get to it..

[pooped]

And then finally, in your "third" point, pro-editing software.... what percentage of the average MacBook consumer uses such programs? My guess? Less than 2%.

less than 2% is still 73.000 "portable mac" sales per year. (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q307data_sum.pdf)

[TenoBell]

and last: yes: the industry might be moving away from firewire in the end, but since the life-cycle of most hardware is longer than those of laptops, it would have been logical to wait until all of those have switched to a new platform and most old peripherals had died before stopping support on those. it will cost me and others like me thousands of dollars to replace those for similar USB driven ones.


You don't know Apple's history.

10 years ago Apple did not slowly transition from P2 ports and floppy disks. They just stopped using them. One day they had a new computer with USB, FireWire, and CD player when their were few peripherals that could use them.

This was a much bigger deal because P2 ports and floppy disks were industry standard used by everyone. Apple just abandoned them cold. FireWire has never been as ubiquitous.

[TenoBell]

no they didn't.
after editing film, we have to go to a pro studio to "bounce to tape" because the previous graphics card couldn't handle that.
I was planning on selling my macBook when the new ones came out to buy that one, so I wouldn't have to hire a profession studio just to do that. now I can't, because I need firewire for it too.
giving better graphics but no firewire is like building a waterwell for a village but only supply them with a colander to get to it..

Sounds like you expect a consumer machine to do a professional job. Is the problem with the MacBook or your expectation.

[ryan330]

no they didn't.
after editing film, we have to go to a pro studio to "bounce to tape" because the previous graphics card couldn't handle that.
I was planning on selling my macBook when the new ones came out to buy that one, so I wouldn't have to hire a profession studio just to do that. now I can't, because I need firewire for it too.
giving better graphics but no firewire is like building a waterwell for a village but only supply them with a colander to get to it..

I feel like it would be cheaper for you to spend an extra $400 on a computer than hire a professional studio to help with your work all the time. Your demands require a pro level mac, not a consumer level mac.

[pooped]

You don't know Apple's history.

10 years ago Apple did not slowly transition from P2 ports and floppy disks. They just stopped using them. One day they had a new computer with USB, FireWire, and CD player when their were few peripherals that could use them.

This was a much bigger deal because P2 ports and floppy disks were industry standard used by everyone. Apple just abandoned them cold. FireWire has never been as ubiquitous.

but there was still a way to plug the floppy drive into a USB port so it wasn't rendered useless.
this is not the case with firewire peripherals..

I feel like it would be cheaper for you to spend an extra $400 on a computer than hire a professional studio to help with your work all the time. Your demands require a pro level mac, not a consumer level mac.

the studio is owned by a friend of mine, so I can use it for free.
and even though my use might pro, my income is still very amateur..
plus I really don't have room or use for a 15" laptop, and nevertheless I shouldn't be forced to lay down another 700 euro for the use of a firewire port that is already there on the 300 euro cheaper version. that comes down to a 1000 euro ($1400) price increase just for the use of a better graphics card..

[TenoBell]

but there was still a way to plug the floppy drive into a USB port so it wasn't rendered useless.
this is not the case with firewire peripherals..


90% of peripherals that have FireWire ports also have USB ports. Most computer devices are not rendered useless. Firewire only is an extremely extremely small percentage.

[pooped]

90% of peripherals that have FireWire ports also have USB ports. Most computer devices are not rendered useless. Firewire only is an extremely extremely small percentage.

firewire and USB are not just backwards compatible with a converter plug, floppy and USB were.
plus it seems like you are talking about external hard drives.
firewire cameras or audio interfaces usually don't also have USB. (I believe)

[TenoBell]

firewire and USB are not just backwards compatible with a converter plug, floppy and USB were.
plus it seems like you are talking about external hard drives.
firewire cameras or audio interfaces usually don't also have USB. (I believe)

It doesn't matter that USB and Firewire are not backward compatible if most peripherals come with both. Really many more peripherals are USB only.


For video that's not true anymore, which why I keep linking to the growing number of USB video cameras.

[4metta]

Since Apple Support is now deleting threads (http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20081014223302211) on the topic, it's clear that a huge proportion of Mac users are expressing displeasure at the removal of Firewire and there will be implications of this in the sales numbers of the new laptops....


So now they are censoring the discussion of their latest macbook offering? LAME!!! Apple is blowing it big time. I won't bother going to their sterile forum anymore. :mad:

[4metta]

90% of peripherals that have FireWire ports also have USB ports. Most computer devices are not rendered useless. Firewire only is an extremely extremely small percentage.

Oh please stop defending this bs decision. USB is slower than a slug.

[TenoBell]

Oh please stop defending this bs decision. USB is slower than a slug.

I think Apple should not do away with FireWire until USB 3 is ready to replace it.

Be that as it may, the reality right now their are extremely few peripherals that have FireWire and don't have USB. While their is a growing list of peripherals that are USB only with no FireWire.

Because of this I don't see Apples choice to be as outrageous as many of you feel. To not see this truth is only looking at the situation emotionally and not logically.

[applebook]

Is the new 2.0 MacBook noticeably faster than the previous white?


No, only for gaming, and the 9400 is no powerhouse for demanding 3D games either. For some things, you will not notice any difference between the 2.1 White and the 2.0 MB.

[applebook]

No Firewire in a consumer laptop? :lol:

That's a joke right?

My five year old iBook just became a better video editing option than the latest Macbook.

Actually, most "consumer" notebooks do not come with FW.

Your iBook runs FCP better than the MacBook? Wow, you must have one special edition model there. :wow:

[applebook]

Don't know about noticeable difference, but the fact that the price difference between the 2 processors to a company buying in Apple's volume is only $20, and the fact the backlit keyboard can't be more than $15 extra, HD difference not more than $10, should be enough to anyone not drinking the koolaid to deter them from not falling into this trap.

Sure Apple should be making money, but $300 on $45 worth of upgrades? C'mon $150 would have been fine, Apple could have made a 200+% profit on these 3 little bumps, but $300 is pretty much asinine.

You clearly do not understand the computing world. The fact remains that there are no sub $1000 laptops out there with LED displays and backlit keyboards. This is a fact. You don't need koolaid to believe in a fact.

The quality difference between the white MB's LCD and the new one is staggering. This alone makes the new one way, way better.

[applebook]

What Pavillion did you get. I noticed this one is pretty popular and it absolutely embarasses the wackbook in comparison.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8907953&type=product&id=1213046785694&ref=09&loc=01&srccode=cii_5766179&cpncode=23-750059-2

Less than $1300 gets you

15.4" screen
2Ghz C2D processor
4GB of RAM
320GB drive
Blu-ray playback
Digital Media Reader
256MB Dedicated video memory
Modem
HDMI and eSATA/USB combo port
Expresscard 34
Firewire

Are you seriously comparing a 15" plastic, el cheapo to a 13" premium product?

>> the 15" is, well, 15 inches and low-res and not LED. High-end 15" laptops come with LED and high-res.
>> The 256Mb video card is the inferior 9200M compared to the 9400 in the MacBook.

Try harder next time.

[applebook]

The only 15" notebook I ever bought was a mid-grade Dell back in 2003/2004 and that had 1920 x 1200. And that was 4-5 years ago!!!

What makes you think that most consumers want 1920x1200 on a 15" screen? That sort of resolution on a 17" screen is even ridiculous to me and to many buyers.

[pooped]

I think Apple should not do away with FireWire until USB 3 is ready to replace it.

Be that as it may, the reality right now their are extremely few peripherals that have FireWire and don't have USB. While their is a growing list of peripherals that are USB only with no FireWire.

Because of this I don't see Apples choice to be as outrageous as many of you feel. To not see this truth is only looking at the situation emotionally and not logically.

I assume you don't own any firewire only peripherals?
you can turn a blind eye and pretend that it is not going to affect you, but that is exactly what is turning the world into a freakin' police state with anti terrorist laws, sentences without proper trials, fingerprinting at the borders and "guilty until proven innocent" mentality: because there was nobody to protest when they took those rights away bit by bit, because it didn't directly concern them.
and now it's too late and you just have to take it lying down while they implant the tracking chip into your arm. (sorry for being off topic slightly).
but without comparing apple to a police state: we should stick together to demand fairness in progress. it is only fair to ask for a replacement that will not set us back hundreds of dollars worth of previous investments. a replacement that is progress in itself, not regress (like USB is compared to firewire).
(so with that I agree with your first sentence, which makes your follow up so contrasting)

[mcl116]

No, only for gaming, and the 9400 is no powerhouse for demanding 3D games either. For some things, you will not notice any difference between the 2.1 White and the 2.0 MB.

how about the old black?

[Mac Voyer]

So easy to dismiss it when you are not the one sitting there with orphaned gear. I understand, I have been the same way in the past. This is not the same thing.

1. There is no path to backward compatibility.
2. There are plenty of FW only devices in use. In fact, this trend to add other types of connectivity to such devices is relatively new.
3. Apple created the consumer FW market. They actively encouraged it with iLife and FW perifs they sold in their stores.
4. Apple has positioned FW as a consumer connection, not pro. They have put it on every mac they have made in recent memory. You may think of it as a pro only connector, but Apple hasn't.

Apple actively encouraged consumers to purchase these devices and gave the impression that those devices would be supported by Apple. They encouraged consumers to kit out their home studios with multi-channel gear for GB. They encouraged dads to buy those FW cameras and edit those home movies in iMovie. They encouraged people to back up their data with external drives, the best of which at the time were FW. Now that millions of people have gone off and did what Apple suggested, all Apple has to say is "SUCKERS!"

Well, we have now heard that message loud and clear from Apple. We do not much appreciate hearing it from some of you wet-behind-the-ears switchers and other Mac users who are not invested in the FW culture that Apple fostered. If you just bought an Apogee Duet or FW only HD in anticipation of doing some of those cool things that Apple has been encouraging you to do, you feel pretty betrayed right about now. They could have easily abandoned FW without abandoning us. They handled this badly. We have a right to be pissed... And we are.

[talksense101]

Do you need special drivers to use USB based video output from camcorders? FW was pretty much model independent in video editing / at least it was transparent to me and it worked well. I wasn't thrilled with quality of video via USB.

[TenoBell]

I assume you don't own any firewire only peripherals?

Its interesting you ask. When I had an iMac in 1999, my peripherals were...

- Jazz Drive (FireWire)
- Zip Drive (FireWire)
- Epson Printer (USB)
- Palm Pilot (USB)
- Video Camera (FireWire)


Now in 2008, my peripherals are...

- Hard Drive (FireWire 400/800, High Speed USB, eSATA, )
- DVD Burner (FireWire, USB)
- TV Tuner (USB)
- Digital Camera (USB)
- USB Flash Drive (USB)
- Printer (High Speed USB)
- iPod Video (USB)
- iPhone 3G (USB)

you can turn a blind eye and pretend that it is not going to affect you, but that is exactly what is turning the world into a freakin' police state with anti terrorist laws, sentences without proper trials, fingerprinting at the borders and "guilty until proven innocent" mentality: because there was nobody to protest when they took those rights away bit by bit, because it didn't directly concern them.


Uuuhhh.......I wouldn't go quite that far to equate FireWire to constitutional rights and social justice issues. Its not that serious.

[TenoBell]

Apple actively encouraged consumers to purchase these devices and gave the impression that those devices would be supported by Apple. They encouraged consumers to kit out their home studios with multi-channel gear for GB. They encouraged dads to buy those FW cameras and edit those home movies in iMovie. They encouraged people to back up their data with external drives, the best of which at the time were FW. Now that millions of people have gone off and did what Apple suggested, all Apple has to say is "SUCKERS!"

All hope isn't lost. 4 of Apple's 6 computers have FireWire.

[TenoBell]

Do you need special drivers to use USB based video output from camcorders? FW was pretty much model independent in video editing / at least it was transparent to me and it worked well. I wasn't thrilled with quality of video via USB.

No you don't need special drivers to transfer video over USB.

The problem I've found with transferring video over USB comes from USB only having one way communication. I think the camera and computer aren't able to confirm that all of the data has been delivered and its possible to end up with a corrupted file because all data didn't transfer.

[Elixir]

Ok, just got done setting up and having some time with my gf's new Macbook. First, the screen is beautiful. I used to hate the glossy screen, even complained about it yesterday but after time with it today... Wow, does it look amazing and the gloss isn't even an issue really. It has a lot less gloss than similar screens i've seen and it doesn't seem to distract me at all. Second, the new trackpad without the click is brilliant, what a fantastic change that was. Third, this has to be the most beautiful solidly built laptop I've ever seen.

So, besides the not having firewire (really stupid for me but she doesn't use firewire though) i think this is an overall great new generation of laptops.

[desides]

So now they are censoring the discussion of their latest macbook offering? LAME!!! Apple is blowing it big time. I won't bother going to their sterile forum anymore. :mad:

They're not censoring anything: by definition, only the government can engage in censorship.

Apple owns the boards. They're allowed to operate them in any way they want. I would imagine they're deleting complaining posts because the point of the Apple Support forum is to provide technical support. "I hate your new products" is not a technical support issue. Right now, it's an anger management issue.

Apple has an official feedback form you can fill out and submit. It's more likely to get noticed than an inappropriate post in their tech support forums.


Uuuhhh.......I wouldn't go quite that far to equate FireWire to constitutional rights and social justice issues. Its not that serious.

You're correct, but it doesn't look like anyone's listening. Too many people are angry that Apple gave them almost everything on their wishlists, without realizing that their wishlists weren't economical for the price points Apple wants to sell at.

People just need to get an extra $500 together and buy a $1999 MacBook Pro. It's really that simple. If it's so important that people refuse to give up their FireWire devices, then they need to bite the bullet and upgrade.

[4metta]

I think Apple should not do away with FireWire until USB 3 is ready to replace it.

Be that as it may, the reality right now their are extremely few peripherals that have FireWire and don't have USB. While their is a growing list of peripherals that are USB only with no FireWire.

Because of this I don't see Apples choice to be as outrageous as many of you feel. To not see this truth is only looking at the situation emotionally and not logically.


No. It IS outrageous because they are taking a step backwards rather than forwards with the macbook's port options. No way to defend this "dumbing down" or handicapping. They removed a superior option that was already part of the macbook. That is backwards plain and simple.

[Mac Voyer]

All hope isn't lost. 4 of Apple's 6 computers have FireWire.

The Macbook is the #1 selling Mac of all time. What do you want to bet that Macworld brings us FW-less iMacs and Mac minis. Let's see what happens in the next revision of the pro lineup. At this point, anyone buying a FW perif, even FW 800 has been warned.

[4metta]

You're correct, but it doesn't look like anyone's listening. Too many people are angry that Apple gave them almost everything on their wishlists, without realizing that their wishlists weren't economical for the price points Apple wants to sell at.

People just need to get an extra $500 together and buy a $1999 MacBook Pro. It's really that simple. If it's so important that people refuse to give up their FireWire devices, then they need to bite the bullet and upgrade.


I wasn't on a wishlist. It was already on the device, then removed like the said device was downgraded.

Don't see many people justifying upgrading to a more expensive device just for a firewire port that existed on old macbooks. Not in these economic times. Apple made a dumb decision.

[Elixir]

When I brought up the firewire issue to the mac sales person she replied with "the previous macbooks only had firewire 400, and USB 2.0 is similar in speed"

Obviously, it's not similar in speed but still. Most people I know getting a Macbook do not use firewire, and I cringe when I say most becasue I know there are people out there that really need it. Also, the keyboard for the entry level (new) Macbook does not come with a backlight keyboard... really dumb, considering the keyboard is black.

They did take a step back in some departments and probably because of the profit margins of these new computers.

[desides]

I wasn't on a wishlist. It was already on the device, then removed like the said device was downgraded.

You misread my post. For months, AI posters have publicly pined for aluminum construction, a multi-touch trackpad, Montevina, and better graphics chips on the MacBook level. Apple delivered exactly that. However, that drove up costs. Something had to be cut somewhere. The reality is that FireWire has never enjoyed success on the scale of USB and remains to this day a niche standard. For end user computing, you absolutely do not need FireWire: the Windows ecosystem gets by just fine with USB.

The applications listed in this thread--namely, video camera transfer and professional audio devices--are not in the domain of consumer computing. Thus, FireWire was removed from the MacBook. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's the reality of the market.

Don't see many people justifying upgrading to a more expensive device just for a firewire port that existed on old macbooks. Not in these economic times. Apple made a dumb decision.

If FireWire is nearly as important as is being claimed, then the extra $400 to upgrade from the $1599 MacBook to the $1999 MacBook Pro is well worth the cost.

And, I'm frankly tired of hearing the "poor economy" canard. If the economy is so bad, why exactly are you in the market for an upper-tier computer? Your current machine clearly works fine, as you can post on AI using it. "The economy is poor" is not a justification for complaining that Apple no longer supports a niche standard in its consumer notebook line.

[Grand Master Matt]

My Sis got it for me too. Woah it's orgasmic..:)

Anyway, my current company is in need of a qualitified Apple technician and Apple system administrator. If you guys are interested can pm me.

[infinitespecter]

What Pavillion did you get. I noticed this one is pretty popular and it absolutely embarasses the wackbook in comparison.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8907953&type=product&id=1213046785694&ref=09&loc=01&srccode=cii_5766179&cpncode=23-750059-2

Less than $1300 gets you



That computer isn't the Macbook's competition. The VAIO SR and XPS M1310 are, and neither can be had with equivalent features for less. In fact, they have inferior features, and in the case of the Sony, cost $250 more. You aren't seriously comparing a heavy 15" notebook to a subnotebook sized 13", are you?

[infinitespecter]

If FireWire is nearly as important as is being claimed, then the extra $400 to upgrade from the $1599 MacBook to the $1999 MacBook Pro is well worth the cost.



And you, just like the other guy I just responded to are missing the point. Some of us want the Macbook because of the size of the computer. I don't want to carry around a 5.5lb notebook in my briefcase. There just isn't enough room for that and all the paperwork I carry. The Macbook Pro is not an option at any cost. I passed on the Air for the same reason in January, hoping that they would make the Macbook smaller. I would be willing to pay $2000 just to get Firewire on a computer this size, but they won't let me.

It's patently absurd. Almost as absurd as you asserting that video camera transfer isn't a consumer activity. So I guess that means that iMovie is used by Spielberg, right?

[desides]

And you, just like the other guy I just responded to are missing the point. Some of us want the Macbook because of the size of the computer. I don't want to carry around a 5.5lb notebook in my briefcase. There just isn't enough room for that and all the paperwork I carry. The Macbook Pro is not an option at any cost. I passed on the Air for the same reason in January, hoping that they would make the Macbook smaller. I would be willing to pay $2000 just to get Firewire on a computer this size, but they won't let me.

Then you ought to be looking at clearance versions of the former $1299 MacBook.

Also, if space is an issue for you, why did you pass on the Air? It sounds to me like you should have an Air as your portable device and an iMac base station for your FireWire needs.

It's patently absurd. Almost as absurd as you asserting that video camera transfer isn't a consumer activity. So I guess that means that iMovie is used by Spielberg, right?

I doubt Steven Spielberg uses FireWire to transfer footage from his production cameras. And as pointed earlier in the thread, there are plenty of consumer cameras with USB. FireWire is being dislodged from this market.

You have three options: get a MacBook Pro (and a larger bag), get a previous model MacBook, or get new equipment which uses USB and not FireWire.

[CoreyMac]

Apple Giveth:

** Aluminum Casing
** LED Backlit Displays
** Larger Multitouch Glass Trackpads
** Backlit Keyboards
** WAY better graphics
** Half Pound Lighter
** .13" Thinner
** Removeable Hard Drives

Apple Taketh:

** FireWire

.....and suddenly theyre the worst people in the world. Either man up the $400 for the Pro or upgrade your devices to USB compatible ones. I dont know what to tell ya. They did their best to make an incredible 13" MacBook, and I think they accomplished that. For me personally what they added and improved far outweighs FireWire, I dont see how for the majority of people this would be any different. This is by far THE best general consumer laptop on the market...and Im thinking of replacing my Santa Rosa MBP with the $1599 model....upgrading it to 320GB HD & 4GB RAM.....$1724.00 would be the total (With education discounts).

[SSA]

While I agree with you in spirit. In reality is highly likely the MacBook is outselling that HP Pavilian with higher profit margins.

Do most consumers really want or care about firewire, card readers, express card slots, or HDMI ports?

I will agree that a lot of consumers don't care about firewire and to a lesser degree expresscard, but card readers and HDMI I have to disagree. I sold computers for a while and when I showed off all the ports that a specific laptop had the vast majority of customers didn't have a clue what firewire was for and only a handful knew what an expresscard slot was good for, but all except the most clueless customers knew what a card reader was useful for and a lot of customers even if they didn't know what an HDMI port looked like or what it was called were interested in being capable of hooking their laptop up to a television. Not all televisions have VGA, but even the cheap no name brand televisions have HDMI.

Considering the minute cost of a card reader(<$5) I am surprised Apple doesn't include one on their Macbook even if 90%+ of people didn't ever use them, which we know is being a little overzealous. Considering that Apple makes a good profit margin alienating even 10% of your potential market seems silly. Considering that Apple prides themselves on the digital lifestyle, you would think that a built in card reader for at least Secure Digital (by far the most popular memory card format) would be obvious, but after all these years it seems Steve Jobs is more concerned about marring the pretty Macbook with additional holes then about making his Macbook desirable for users looking for a notebook designed for the "digital lifestyle."

The exclusion of expresscard I find a little questionable considering that there are sub $500 notebooks that contain expresscard. If it were so expensive to include and so few people used it I would think that expresscard wouldn't be included in cheap laptops with razorthin margins. If excluding expresscard really cost more to include then the increase in sales it brought to customers then I imagine most cheap notebook would exclude it, but except for the cheap netbooks I don't see anybody who excludes expresscard slots on their machines.

[Boondox]

Apple Giveth:

** Aluminum Casing
** LED Backlit Displays
** Larger Multitouch Glass Trackpads
** Backlit Keyboards
** WAY better graphics
** Half Pound Lighter
** .13" Thinner
** Removeable Hard Drives

Apple Taketh:

** FireWire

.....and suddenly theyre the worst people in the world. Either man up the $400 for the Pro or upgrade your devices to USB compatible ones. I dont know what to tell ya. They did their best to make an incredible 13" MacBook, and I think they accomplished that. For me personally what they added and improved far outweighs FireWire, I dont see how for the majority of people this would be any different. This is by far THE best general consumer laptop on the market...and Im thinking of replacing my Santa Rosa MBP with the $1599 model....upgrading it to 320GB HD & 4GB RAM.....$1724.00 would be the total (With education discounts).

Agree

I've read where some people are now complaining that there isn't enough differentiation between the Macbook and the Macbook Pro...well there ya go, Firewire is one of the things that separates the product lines.

Firewire is great, I like having it, but the only time I've ever used it was using the Migration Assistant. I use USB everyday.

If you want to have all the new goodies like better graphics, and still want it at the consumer price point, then you are going to have a tradeoff somewhere else. Not too difficult a concept now is it folks?

[applebook]

Apple Giveth:

** Aluminum Casing
** LED Backlit Displays
** Larger Multitouch Glass Trackpads
** Backlit Keyboards
** WAY better graphics
** Half Pound Lighter
** .13" Thinner
** Removeable Hard Drives

Apple Taketh:

** FireWire

.....and suddenly theyre the worst people in the world. Either man up the $400 for the Pro or upgrade your devices to USB compatible ones. I dont know what to tell ya. They did their best to make an incredible 13" MacBook, and I think they accomplished that. For me personally what they added and improved far outweighs FireWire, I dont see how for the majority of people this would be any different. This is by far THE best general consumer laptop on the market...and Im thinking of replacing my Santa Rosa MBP with the $1599 model....upgrading it to 320GB HD & 4GB RAM.....$1724.00 would be the total (With education discounts).

Well, the HDDs were always removable, but your point remains true. The new MB IS appropriately priced.

However, what you and I will simply not be able to appreciate is the missing FW and the price tags because we can afford the asking prices, and we don't care about FW.

Those who are griping about the price were hoping for an updated MB at $999, and some folks really do need FW. Their complaints are valid.

The whining that ISN'T valid is the suggestion that the new MB is overpriced. It isn't.

[TenoBell]

I will agree that a lot of consumers don't care about firewire and to a lesser degree expresscard, but card readers and HDMI I have to disagree. I sold computers for a while and when I showed off all the ports that a specific laptop had the vast majority of customers didn't have a clue what firewire was for and only a handful knew what an expresscard slot was good for, but all except the most clueless customers knew what a card reader was useful for and a lot of customers even if they didn't know what an HDMI port looked like or what it was called were interested in being capable of hooking their laptop up to a television. Not all televisions have VGA, but even the cheap no name brand televisions have HDMI.

We can look at this way. I'm sure Apple weighs the features it supports based on research of what most people will actually make common use of. Growth of Apple's notebooks have outpaced the industry for the past two years. None of them have ever come with card readers. Consumers have the choice of plugging a camera directly into the computer with USB or buying a USB card reader if they choose. A large number of the consumer market seem satisfied with this option.

HDMI is really a television display format and not really a computer display format. DVI and Display Port are computer display formats that support HDMI with no problem.

[applebook]

Here is an interesting snippet from www.ign.com (which is a PC gaming site and is predominately Windoze and PC oriented):

"The new 13" MacBook has an incredibly improved hardware and features set and is irresistibly priced at $1,299, and the new 15" MacBook Pro has some pretty solid updates as well."

I'm glad that even IGN knows the market, unlike some whiners in this thread, digging up low-end 15" PC laptops priced at $999 and trying to convince people that the new MB is overpriced for its features.

[SSA]

Assuming anything is foolhardy. Technicians use Firewire often to rescue hard drives or transfer files easily using Target Disk Mode. TDM is one of those features that you might not realize the power until it saves your bacon or makes transferring files much easier. It's not gone.

In my personal experience, TDM while neat isn't always as valuable as one thinks. I remember trying to use TDM on an old PowerMac and the drive didn't mount properly when I hooked up it up to my Mac Mini. I ended up pulling the HDD and connecting it to my Mac Mini through a USB to ATA adapter and using Disc Warrior to repair the permissions on the drive. On any of the Intel Macs I could have merely hooked up my external USB DVD drive and booted off it. Everybody who talking about Macs not booting off of USB need to get with the times.

The only situation I can see where TDM would really save you any time is if your optical drive won't boot, but your motherboard still allowed TDM. That seems like a slightly contrived situation. If your computer works properly you can always transfer information via crossover cable via Gigabit ethernet. Even if your MacOS install is corrupted you can use a linux live disc to transfer data off a corrupted OSX installation. I don't question that TDM can be useful, but I hardly find it a huge loss for troubleshooting.

[SSA]

Blu-Ray: This I can understand, being an avid Blu-Ray fan. But, folks, Blu-Ray slot drives simply are not cost-effective enough to warrant inclusion in machines that are already being criticized for price increases. If the aggregate is already of the opinion that the MacBook costs too much, imagine the bottom line of a Blu-Ray-equipped MacBook. Why do the "poor economy" arguments apply only to the $100 price increase/decrease, but not to the potential price of a MacBook with a Blu-Ray drive? If you want to watch movies on the go, the solution to your problem is obvious:

Put movies on your hard drive. Use iTunes.

True, but not everyone finds an SSD worth the cost either, but Apple included a CTO option for Blu-Ray. Why couldn't they do the exact same thing with Blu-Ray they did with SSDs on the MacBook?

[Haggar]

How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

"Firewire is so superior to USB"

"MacBook offers high end features not found on bargain basement laptops"

"Target Disk Mode make Macs so much superior to PCs"

But now that Apple dropped Firewire, these same people will just say "Who needs it anyway?"

No matter what Apple does, the Apple defenders will be right there to rationalize and defend them. If Apple completely changes direction, the Apple defenders will also change their story and contradict themselves right along with Apple. Instead of flip-flopping back and forth, why don't you stand by your beliefs?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Who needs automatic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the memory yourself.

Who needs preemptive multitasking or memory protection since Macs never crash?

[alanpgh@gmail.com]

Here is an interesting snippet from www.ign.com (which is a PC gaming site and is predominately Windoze and PC oriented):

"The new 13" MacBook has an incredibly improved hardware and features set and is irresistibly priced at $1,299, and the new 15" MacBook Pro has some pretty solid updates as well."

I'm glad that even IGN knows the market, unlike some whiners in this thread, digging up low-end 15" PC laptops priced at $999 and trying to convince people that the new MB is overpriced for its features.

The Macbook is not overpriced at $1499. education price. I bought the first one sold by my local Apple Store on Oct. 15. All I can say is it is a spectacular machine!

[TenoBell]

How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

I've said I would prefer Apple keep Firewire on its current machines until USB 3 is viable.

At the same time I don't think its as crazy for them to take off of the MacBook as people here think. Apple still offers Firewire on 4 of its 6 computers. I think you guys are freaking out because this is a clear sign Firewire is falling into obscurity.

[infinitespecter]

How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

"Firewire is so superior to USB"

"MacBook offers high end features not found on bargain basement laptops"

"Target Disk Mode make Macs so much superior to PCs"

But now that Apple dropped Firewire, these same people will just say "Who needs it anyway?"

No matter what Apple does, the Apple defenders will be right there to rationalize and defend them. If Apple completely changes direction, the Apple defenders will also change their story and contradict themselves right along with Apple. Instead of flip-flopping back and forth, why don't you stand by your beliefs?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Who needs automatic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the memory yourself.

Who needs preemptive multitasking or memory protection since Macs never crash?


http://preneurmarketing.com/wp-content/checkmate.jpg
Apple could have released a notebook without a screen and some here would be falling all over themselves to justify it. The computer, like the iPhone, is lacking extremely basic features seen everywhere else that cost pennies on the dollar to implement.

[applebook]

he computer, like the iPhone, is lacking extremely basic features seen everywhere else that cost pennies on the dollar to implement.

And what is the new MB "lacking"? Even if FW is indeed an "extremely basic feature," like you claim, this is still only a single feature missing.

[desides]

True, but not everyone finds an SSD worth the cost either, but Apple included a CTO option for Blu-Ray. Why couldn't they do the exact same thing with Blu-Ray they did with SSDs on the MacBook?

My guess is that OS X lacks HDCP, and Apple is either hesitant about building that into OS X, or it's such a large job that it's best implemented into Snow Leopard rather than released as a Leopard patch.

Either way, you can buy HD content through iTunes. If you're dead set on watching HD shows/movies on a notebook, there you go.

[FuturePastNow]

The Macbook is the #1 selling Mac of all time. What do you want to bet that Macworld brings us FW-less iMacs and Mac minis. Let's see what happens in the next revision of the pro lineup. At this point, anyone buying a FW perif, even FW 800 has been warned.

Oh, I'm not takin' that bet. If the Mac mini actually gets updated instead of just discontinued, it will definitely lose its Firewire port. The iMac might keep one FW800 port, though.

[Marcus]

Here in France, with the EU 'tax', the new Macbooks, and indeed Macbook Pros do *not* look like a good deal at all :/

For me, the Alu is a deal breaker, as it kills wireless reception, and overall, the specs in comparison to other brands are just not up to much for the price Apple consumers are expected to pay. I need a replacement machine for 2 Macbook Pros I have, both of which are on their last legs, and for the first time in 20+ years, I am now 90% sure they will not be Apple machines. I hung on to see what was announced, but for me it is too little, too late. :(

I had high hopes, but this round of updates feels waaaaaay too late. Maybe if they were announced 4 or 5 months ago, yes, but now, other manufacturers have caught up spec wise, and in France reduced priced to levels vastly below Apple, for effectively the same tech...

As much as I *love* OS X, I can't justify 500Euro+ just to use it :(

[applebook]

My guess is that OS X lacks HDCP, and Apple is either hesitant about building that into OS X, or it's such a large job that it's best implemented into Snow Leopard rather than released as a Leopard patch.

Either way, you can buy HD content through iTunes. If you're dead set on watching HD shows/movies on a notebook, there you go.

I agree. Developing B-R software that runs and burns the media is not as easy as some people think. It's not like Apple can just sell the drives and "bang, there it is!"

[applebook]

For me, the Alu is a deal breaker, as it kills wireless reception, and overall, the specs in comparison to other brands are just not up to much for the price Apple consumers are expected to pay. :(

Yet another poster who needs to do his research before whining.

The aluminum MBP has always had excellent wi-fi range. The plastic MB's range is not that much superior. If for you personally, even a tiny bit worse range is a "deal breaker," then that's your call, but alu does not "kill wireless reception."

Take a look at other 13" laptops on the market before making the false statement that the "specs in comparison" are inferior --and I said THIRTEEN inch laptops.

[4metta]

Originally Posted by Haggar
How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

"Firewire is so superior to USB"

"MacBook offers high end features not found on bargain basement laptops"

"Target Disk Mode make Macs so much superior to PCs"

But now that Apple dropped Firewire, these same people will just say "Who needs it anyway?"

No matter what Apple does, the Apple defenders will be right there to rationalize and defend them. If Apple completely changes direction, the Apple defenders will also change their story and contradict themselves right along with Apple. Instead of flip-flopping back and forth, why don't you stand by your beliefs?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Who needs automatic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the memory yourself.

Who needs preemptive multitasking or memory protection since Macs never crash?

http://preneurmarketing.com/wp-content/checkmate.jpg
Apple could have released a notebook without a screen and some here would be falling all over themselves to justify it. The computer, like the iPhone, is lacking extremely basic features seen everywhere else that cost pennies on the dollar to implement.


:lol: :lol:

Just beautiful. :smokey:

Honestly, I'm beginning to think there are Apple plants in this forum with some of the irrational fanboyism.

[Marcus]

Yet another poster who needs to do his research before whining.

The aluminum MBP has always had excellent wi-fi range. The plastic MB's range is not that much superior. If for you personally, even a tiny bit worse range is a "deal breaker," then that's your call, but alu does not "kill wireless reception."

Take a look at other 13" laptops on the market before making the false statement that the "specs in comparison" are inferior --and I said THIRTEEN inch laptops.

Another poster who prefers to draw sweeping generalisations about another poster... I really do pity people like yourself who have to apologise and evangelise everything Apple does and every new product they release, without looking at the facts. /sigh

For reference, I have had through my business/work, at one time or another, pretty much one of every model laptop Apple have made. I currently have *infront* of me... MBP 2.1ghz, MBP 1.83ghz, Powerbook G4, iBook G4 1ghz, 2.1ghz Macbook, Lenovo Thinkpad T61p, Acer Aspire 5920, EeePC 901.

If the reception on the MPB is *SO* good as you point out, why is it that the 2 I have here are the only ones that do not pick up my Wireless Network on the 3rd floor of my office? The Powerbook G4 does also not pick up the signal. All the others have either full or 3/4 reception... MBPs? Nada, nothing, zip. Great reception clearly. For me, I work mainly on the 3rd floor, so if I can't get the internet with the machines, yes, it is a deal breaker.

As for prices, funnily enough, I have spent the last 6 weeks looking at machines, prices, and making price/cost/benefit analysis. I draw you to;

For reference, the base model Macbook Alu goes for 1200Euro.

Dell - XPS 1330

Processeur Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8100 (2,10 GHz, mémoire cache L2 de 3 Mo, FSB 800 MHz)
Windows Vista® Édition Familiale Premium SP1 authentique - Français
Ecran WXGA (1280x800) 13,3 pouces CCFL (220 nits) avec TrueLife™
nVidia® GeForce® 8400M GS de 128 Mo
4096 Mo de mémoire bicanale SDRAM DDR2 667 MHz [2x2048]
Disque dur SATA de 320 Go (5400 tpm)
Lecteur fin 8x DVD+/-RW à chargement par fente, logiciel compris

This is the 'top of the line' model here in France. It sells for 849 Euro! yes some of the specs are worse than the MB, but some of them far exceed it. But it is nearly 400Euro cheaper!

Just in the local supermarkets you have these machines that are either 12" or 13.3", and processor and RAM wise are on a par with the Macbook. I just got a paper through the door which had the following 2 listed;

PACKARD BELL - EasyNote BG45-P-071FR - 499 Euro!
ACER - Aspire 2920-6A3G32Mi - 699Euro

Yes they are 12", but have as good a processor, more RAM, and vastly more HDD as standard than the MB. That is without even trying. If I go to a proper computer store, there are at least 5 other 13" (or close) machines that are better value than the new MB Alu. For the Macbook Alu, in France, I stand by my point. It is not great value for money, and that the specs are not as great as they should have been, in fact needed to be, should Apple justify the price point in Euros.

[pooped]

for those who have been reading my posts and think that I was complaning about the lack of firewire on a cheap laptop:
that is not the case.. if they would have made a 13" macBook (pro) with firewire at $1600, I would have been happy.
I really don't want to go BIG.

and then the argument that some fanboys give that the materials are more expensive, so they had to cut something away:
firewire is relatively cheap to add into the case, AND.. they already did cut something away: the "the low entry macBook".
just last week we had three macBooks: $1100, $1300, $1500
this week we only have the two more expensive options: $1300 and $1600 (oh and a clearance sale of old plastic ones)
they already increased the prices, so why cut down on this cheap function and take away a big part of it's functionality?

we have been reading about the new 17" macBook pro coming early next year, apple would do good if they make the line up:

$1200 13" 2.0 macBook (no firewire)
$1400 13" 2.4 macBook (no firewire)
$1700 13" 1.6 macBook air (no ports whatsoever)
$2500 13" 1.8 macBook air (SSD drive)
$1600 13" 2.3 macBook pro (incl firewire 400)
$1900 15" 2.4 macBook pro (incl firewire 400)
$2400 15" 2.5 macBook pro (incl firewire 800)
$2700 17" 2.6 macBook pro (incl firewire 800)

(I'm only leaving the no firewire options in because I don't think apple wants to lose face over this, so they'd rather offer an addition 13" pro model than admit that they were wrong to take it out.. and if that means we also get the better graphics option in a 13", you really won't hear me complain again)


edit: and don't get hung up over the prices I stated, they might be off by 100-200..
and if they need the room: I can see the 13" pro model losing the ethernet port with an option to buy a USB or firewire to ethernet converter plug for only $30 :)

[Hudson1]

Like a few others have said, Apple is the one who fostered the whole FireWire ecosystem. They developed the technology, promoted it in their stores, featured it on most of the peripherals they sold, and importantly based their consumer-oriented iLife software around usage of FW peripherals.

That they are eliminating the ports is not the key issue. Instead, they've provided no possible replacement technology to allow people to use the equipment that they specifically promoted. For years, Apple made the claim that buying a Mac was the way to make home movies and they offered the one-stop-shop for doing so (computer, software, peripherals... all able to work in concert). This is a distinctly different scenario than floppy drives, Apple Desktop Bus, printer ports, etc. None of those were designed to allow a Mac to do things that other computers couldn't also easily do.

Ironically, about every Windows machine still has FW compatibility of some type or another either by a 1394 port, Cardbus/ExpressCard slot, or even the converter cable (XP only so far). Not one of those options is possible with the new MacBook.

Frankly, I think of myself as an Apple apologist of some sort (well, I've been using them for 20 years) but this is the first time that I can recall Apple abandoning a technology that they have considered superior without offering any type of backward solution.

[PB]

... but this is the first time that I can recall Apple abandoning a technology that they have considered superior without offering any type of backward solution.
This sums up well the situation. My hope is that after enough pressure (read: drop in sales) Apple may re-consider this decision and add in a later revision FW 800 at least in the high end MB.

[Frank777]

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots..

Thing is, this example shows how HP muddies the water while Apple is too keen to cut features.

No computer needs Firewire, a card reader and an Expresscard slot. That's overkill.

Just put the EC34 slot on, and you can add Firewire, card readers and more to your heart's delight.

Apple, on the other hand, ships a consumer laptop without the ability to add any of the above. What? :err:

If it's so important that people refuse to give up their FireWire devices, then they need to bite the bullet and upgrade.

For many people, having to walk around with a 15" laptop instead of the 13" is a downgrade.

...I think you guys are freaking out because this is a clear sign Firewire is falling into obscurity.

Everyone knew that FW was in a transition to 3200 and that it would be in competition with USB 3 in late 2009/early 2010. As I've said, if Apple - who has chaired the move to 3200 - sees no future for Firewire, they should say so and prepare everyone to move to something else.

Of course, only noobs use USB2 for hard drives. ;) So if Firewire goes, we need eSata.

This sums up well the situation. My hope is that after enough pressure (read: drop in sales) Apple may re-consider this decision and add in a later revision FW 800 at least in the high end MB.

Personally, this debacle has changed my view of the whole laptop idea. I may pick up one of those $599. PC laptops in Costco and throw the funds saved into my new Mac Pro in 2009.

My current portable doesn't get a real workout, though I like the idea that I have access to my full suite of apps when I'm on the road. If we're going to abandon the illusion that laptops are for real AV and design work away from the office, why am I paying $700. more to check email, browse the web and play tunes?

[edmaster]

Can I get a memory upgrade on a new MacBook when I buy it at the Apple Store or do I have to order online to make that happen?

[PBG4 Dude]

Can I get a memory upgrade on a new MacBook when I buy it at the Apple Store or do I have to order online to make that happen?

The Apple store will install upgrade RAM for you, but it will cost more than a BTO model from their online store as you will pay full boat for the new RAM (and be left with one or two sticks of RAM in your pocket).

[edmaster]

The Apple store will install upgrade RAM for you, but it will cost more than a BTO model from their online store as you will pay full boat for the new RAM (and be left with one or two sticks of RAM in your pocket).

That's what I figured. I couldn't believe the BTO RAM upgrade price was lower than what I can get from a 3rd party. I guess they give you a good deal on RAM upgrade when you buy the thing and then bend you over a couch if you buy it from Apple after the fact.

On another note, this thread contains info from a few people who have actually touched these new MacBooks. Anyone NOT like the new trackpad? I'm curious most about that.

[rtdunham]

Just put the EC34 slot on, and you can add Firewire, card readers and more to your heart's delight...Apple, on the other hand, ships a consumer laptop without the ability to add any of the above. What? :err:

exactly.

[rtdunham]

The Hell

In the US white MacBook now $999. In the UK, white Macbook has gone up $40 - and nothings changed :devil::devil::devil::devil:

Put off buying MacBook few weeks ago cos I heard it might go down in price. HAHA

Was going to buy one, but now ill go for cheaper option. Dell :D

Could be due to currency fluctuations. Would you be fair enough about this to check to see how the price on the Dell has changed in the same time frame, and report back to us?

[PB]

Just put the EC34 slot on, and you can add Firewire, card readers and more to your heart's delight.

Apple, on the other hand, ships a consumer laptop without the ability to add any of the above. What? :err:

From what I understand, the new Apple view of consumer notebooks is synonym to absolute minimalism; even if this may harm the overall Mac experience, as it has been so many times pointed out in this thread.

But to be fair, having seen the Macbook video and the AI photos here, I have to say that the new MB is a really impressive piece of hardware. The design has just reached a new level.

[ecking]

"The Macbook is a consumer product" nonsensical statement. Every Macbook until October 14th has had Firewire thus any correlation you attempt to make between Firewire being a Pro only feature will be easily repudiated.

Assuming anything is foolhardy. Technicians use Firewire often to rescue hard drives or transfer files easily using Target Disk Mode. TDM is one of those features that you might not realize the power until it saves your bacon or makes transferring files much easier. It's not gone.

All the market research in the world doesn't ameliorate the simple facts. Preceding Macbooks have always had Firewire. The relative cost of the technology must be low as Apple created the format and purchased Zyante

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ECZ/is_2002_April_5/ai_84450485

The best selling HP Pavillion has Firewire, card reader and Expresscard 34 slots. What's Apple's excuse for removing a feature that is on most PC consumer laptops?

I think it's very telling that the excuses given for the removal of a feature that was replaced with nothing center around silly anecdotes or banal logic and correlations.

With connectivity ..more is almost always preferrable to less.

Damn it, thank you. Finally someone gets it.

My question to others is this:

Does not having firewire make the machine better and more attractive to you?

With the way you all go on and on about it, defending it against everyone who has been using it for years and people who wanted it that are non-professionals you'd think that you're actually happy it's gone.

Were you sitting there thinking "f*** if apple takes firewire off the macbook I'll finally buy one," because all these defendants are treating it like a small victory.

Did it make the computer cheaper?
Lighter?
Better?

If someone who likes the new macbook and intends to get it could explain to me how their computer has been strengthened by the lack of firewire, I am all ears.

[ecking]

For a very simple reason : because not everybody is WiFi-equipped these days. The building of the U I'm teaching at (that's why I've got an educational rebate) has no WiFi. So I have to use a good old Ethernet cable instead. WiFi is installed, but it does not work, for unknown reasons. I'm sure it'll be fixed some day, but when?

Actually apple has said quite a few times that built in ethernet isn't a big deal, which is why they've been content selling the usb->ethernet dongle for the air. The could simply have dropped it in the box for the macbook.

Besides how much longer do you think the building you're teaching at will go without wifi before they fix the issues? Not that long. In the 2006/07 school year there were quite a few building in my U that didn't have wifi or it wasn't working and now in the 2008/09 year all those buildings have it.

The ethernet problem is a short term problem that already has a solution, the firewire removal is a permanent problem that apple has not given us a solution for.

[SSA]

Just put the EC34 slot on, and you can add Firewire, card readers and more to your heart's delight.

Apple and even some of their fanboys on this forum like to say everything is wireless and wired standards are going the way of the Dodo, but the reality is a lot of people would beg to differ. The necessity for wired connections is becoming less common as wireless technologies move to higher bandwidths and better ranges, but there are some circumstances where wireless technologies just aren't practical(eg. large amounts of bandwidth). The lack of the EC34 slot seems rather odd insofar as that no matter how good you design a laptop invariably some users are going to want one more xyz port than was included. Instead of limiting the end users possibilities Apple ought to break down and include the EC34 slot so that the users can have eSATA , FW400/800, or some older port for an older application(RS232, parallel, etc.) if they want it.

People claim that Apple has to do this to prevent the cannibalization of the MBP sales, but even without the Expresscard/34 advantage the Macbook Pro has plenty of advantages over the Macbook such as a dramatically better graphics card, FW800, and a better resolution even for the 15" model. I think moving to the Geforce 9400 on the MB will do more to hurt the sales of the MBP then had they included Expresscard in the MB. Even Steve Jobs outright said that the graphics gap between the MB & MBP has dropped dramatically. That is practically an invitation for people to second guess whether they really need to buy the more profitable MBP. The old Intel graphics were so underpowered that a lot of games couldn't run well or in some cases at all despite the fact that the MB had a fairly good mobile processor.

Of course, only noobs use USB2 for hard drives. ;) So if Firewire goes, we need eSata.

Now there was somewhere where I thought Apple should have been ahead of the curve(a trailblazer in the industry). eSATA isn't some stillborn standard. I am shocked nobody asked about it in the Q&A. I can go to any Fry's and they will sell hundreds of external HDDs with eSATA every weekend. Even less specialized stores like Staples or Costco sell external drive that include eSATA. The potential number of people buying a Macbook that could immediately take advantage of the eSATA port is probably in the millions, which is more than I can say about Displayport. Furthermore, Apple could have integrated Target Disk mode with eSATA. ArsTechnica reported that Apple submitted a patent application for TDM through eSATA. Maybe it wasn't ready for primetime yet, but if it is ready that would have been a rational port to put in the place of the FW400 port. Displayport on the other hand, I am not so sure about.

How many monitors are there with Displayport? The Dell 2408 and their 3008 and this new Apple 24" LED display whenever it ships. Until you get past single link DVI where Displayport is supposed to provide better bandwidth I don't see the benefit of the move for Apple's customers. I never heard anyone complain that the Macbook didn't support resolutions beyond 1920x1200. The move at least on the Macbook seems slightly self serving insofar as AFAIK Apple is the only company selling mini-Displayport adapters whereas I can name at least two companies selling the Mini-DVI adapters that the old Macbook used(one for about half off the Apple adapter). Hopefully, Mini-Displayport catches on in some of the subcompacts so that Mini-DP cables and adapters are popular(cheaper than Apple) or at the very least someone other than Apple sees the profit potential and sells their own Mini-DP cables and adapters. Except for the pro market where resolutions beyond 1920x1200 exist I don't see a lot of demand for Displayport. For a laptop largely aimed at the consumer market DP seems a little overkill.

[ecking]

I keep posting links to cameras that use USB to show that video is moving away from FireWire. The only reason you wouldn't want to see the links is to not face the truth.

Moving and moved are two entirely different things. You must not work in video because you dont' understand how important this is. Panasonic is currently the only manufacturer with a prosumer camera that doesn't have firewire, and it's limted to model you posted. Sony for example just announced 3 new firewire based prosumer units. What will happen in 5 years should not reflect the state of computers now.

[TenoBell]

True, but not everyone finds an SSD worth the cost either, but Apple included a CTO option for Blu-Ray. Why couldn't they do the exact same thing with Blu-Ray they did with SSDs on the MacBook?

SSD fits into the MB the way it is. For Blu-ray Apple would have to license more DRM for OS X and could not have made the MB as thin as it is now.


Apple could have released a notebook without a screen and some here would be falling all over themselves to justify it. The computer, like the iPhone, is lacking extremely basic features seen everywhere else that cost pennies on the dollar to implement.

Are you seriously equating the need of FireWire to the need of a screen.

If those basic features were really needed the MB nor the iPhone would sell as well as they do.


Honestly, I'm beginning to think there are Apple plants in this forum with some of the irrational fanboyism.

Equating the need for FireWire to the need of a screen is more rational?

Someone asked me if I use FireWire. I listed my current peripherals. Out of 8 only 2 have FireWire. Those two offer USB as an option. Its a fact that you wish to ignore, most of the computer market only uses USB. In realizing this you call irrational.



As for prices, funnily enough, I have spent the last 6 weeks looking at machines, prices, and making price/cost/benefit analysis. I draw you to;

Dell - XPS 1330

Processeur Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8100 (2,10 GHz, mémoire cache L2 de 3 Mo, FSB 800 MHz)
Windows Vista® Édition Familiale Premium SP1 authentique - Français
Ecran WXGA (1280x800) 13,3 pouces CCFL (220 nits) avec TrueLife™
nVidia® GeForce® 8400M GS de 128 Mo
4096 Mo de mémoire bicanale SDRAM DDR2 667 MHz [2x2048]
Disque dur SATA de 320 Go (5400 tpm)
Lecteur fin 8x DVD+/-RW à chargement par fente, logiciel compris


This notebook isn't the same as the MacBook in most cases. It uses the santa rosa chipset, less cache, slower RAM, CCFL instead of LED screen. The only place this notebook is better than the MacBook is the GPU.



$1700 13" 1.6 macBook air (no ports whatsoever)


Not true the MBA has a mini DisplayPort, USB port, and audio port.


That they are eliminating the ports is not the key issue. Instead, they've provided no possible replacement technology to allow people to use the equipment that they specifically promoted. For years, Apple made the claim that buying a Mac was the way to make home movies and they offered the one-stop-shop for doing so (computer, software, peripherals... all able to work in concert). This is a distinctly different scenario than floppy drives, Apple Desktop Bus, printer ports, etc. None of those were designed to allow a Mac to do things that other computers couldn't also easily do.

This is overstating the current situation. Nearly all peripherals offer another option other than FireWire. The list of USB only devices is much higher than any that even offer FireWire as an option.

Ironically, about every Windows machine still has FW compatibility of some type or another either by a 1394 port, Cardbus/ExpressCard slot, or even the converter cable (XP only so far). Not one of those options is possible with the new MacBook.

90% of the PC market does not use FireWire. Most of the PC's that offer FireWire are using the mini 4 pin variant which is nearly useless.



Everyone knew that FW was in a transition to 3200 and that it would be in competition with USB 3 in late 2009/early 2010. As I've said, if Apple - who has chaired the move to 3200 - sees no future for Firewire, they should say so and prepare everyone to move to something else.

Of course, only noobs use USB2 for hard drives. ;) So if Firewire goes, we need eSata.

The overwhelming majority of the PC market uses USB for hard drives. There is no such thing as a flash drive for FireWire.


With the way you all go on and on about it, defending it against everyone who has been using it for years and people who wanted it that are non-professionals you'd think that you're actually happy it's gone.

Were you sitting there thinking "f*** if apple takes firewire off the macbook I'll finally buy one," because all these defendants are treating it like a small victory.

You guys are taking a George Bush "with us or against us" stance on this, without taking into account the reality of the computer market.

I would rather FireWire won over USB. But this is not the reality. The overwhelming majority of the computer market uses USB - the overwhelming majority of computer peripherals are made to interface through USB. That is the reality.


If someone who likes the new macbook and intends to get it could explain to me how their computer has been strengthened by the lack of firewire, I am all ears.

For most people buying the MacBook it won't matter because they've never used FireWire and never will. Or because most peripherals are either USB only or include USB along with FireWire.

Ultimately this strengthens Apple because it forces anyone who wants to use FireWire will have to buy the more expensive machine.

[ecking]

Actually, most "consumer" notebooks do not come with FW.

That's not true pretty much any 599 and up consumer laptop has 4-pin firewire 400 on it. Unless you're talking about netbooks you must not have looked at other manufacturers.

[SSA]

My guess is that OS X lacks HDCP, and Apple is either hesitant about building that into OS X, or it's such a large job that it's best implemented into Snow Leopard rather than released as a Leopard patch.

Either way, you can buy HD content through iTunes. If you're dead set on watching HD shows/movies on a notebook, there you go.

Perhaps, Blu-Ray playback will be a new exclusive feature of iDVD in Snow Leopard and we will see a CTO for Blu-Ray on the Mac Pro and the Mac Pro in January, but the argument that you can buy HD content through iTunes I find a really lame canard. The "HD" iTunes movies are only 720p as opposed to 1080p and for all the talk about how great the selection of films are I even after ~2 years since they started selling videos I feel underwhelmed. There are countless films that are top sellers in Bluray on Amazon that aren't even an option on iTunes. I couldn't find any hard numbers that are recent on the number of films on iTunes, but if iTunes has more options than Blu-ray it isn't by a lot and at least in my subjective judgement the iTunes collection of films leaves a lot to be desired.

[hmurchison]

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,8040.html


Many laptops now have a USB/eSATA port. Apple could have been progressive and utilized this features.

Jobs is fond of saying "we make the best computers available" but honestly I haven't been impressed with Mac in quite some time. I mean they look good but if you look at the overall picture and from the perspective of "computing". Apple still up to the same "style over substance" shenanigans.

[ecking]

People just need to get an extra $500 together and buy a $1999 MacBook Pro. It's really that simple. If it's so important that people refuse to give up their FireWire devices, then they need to bite the bullet and upgrade.

Show me a 13" macbook pro from 1999 and I will buy it. I do not want or need a larger screen or heavier computer. Plenty of people have said this, firewire is not a $500 upgrade, that is a separate computer with many other things I don't want.

[PB]

If someone who likes the new macbook and intends to get it could explain to me how their computer has been strengthened by the lack of firewire, I am all ears.
Well, I like very much the new design and the seemingly more solid construction but as I explained in previous posts I am not going to buy one. However, seeing the internals in the AI pictures, it seems that the package is very tight and probably FW was just impossible with the new internal design.

Hopefully, by next year we will see USB3 (where is this actually?) on the MB...

[TenoBell]

Many laptops now have a USB/eSATA port. Apple could have been progressive and utilized this features.

Yeah I wonder what Apple thinks of eSATA. Apple has never really been a company to put every port option on its notebooks. I can imagine from a design perspective they want to consolidate it down to a minimum. Which likely why the MacBook now only has USB.

Perhaps they believe USB 3 and FireWire 3200 are the most viable interfaces to support.

Jobs is fond of saying "we make the best computers available" but honestly I haven't been impressed with Mac in quite some time. I mean they look good but if you look at the overall picture and from the perspective of "computing". Apple still up to the same "style over substance" shenanigans.

Apple being able to get Intel and Nvidia to design special chips for them that add great performance is pretty impressive. Especially in light of the Macs small marketshare.

[TenoBell]

Hopefully, by next year we will see USB3 (where is this actually?) on the MB...

From what I've read late 2009 to early 2010.

[ecking]

I agree. Developing B-R software that runs and burns the media is not as easy as some people think. It's not like Apple can just sell the drives and "bang, there it is!"

I guess toast 9 is a master piece then. Blu-ray support and software that read and burn bdr for like what? 70 bucks? I've used blu-ray drives on the mac pro as well as the lacie one on a mbp. It isn't complicated. I'm not saying that apple needed to include it this time around but you and the guy you quote are trying to make it sound like a mystical art, it's not. It's already here, toast can do it (and gives you the plugin) and adobe's encore can do it.

They probably just didn't offer it because like steve said licensing and because none of the slot load drives for br are that thin yet. I imagine it'll be a bto on the next mac pro.

People don't have to wait though, you can get one for a mac pro for less than 250 now.

[MiMac]

The Apple fanbois around here really need to take their tongues outta Stevo's ass and step back from the glory that is Jobs. Some of you people would swallow just about anything Steve threw at you and believe it was for your own good.

Omitting FireWire was not a forward thinking move, It was a cost cutting, penny pinching, upselling exercise plain and simple. Some of you will not remember a time when Apple removed audio ports from their laptops. Others will remember the uproar over that move and the subsequent back pedalling by Apple. Any of you care to live without audio I/O now? Didn't think so.

The MacBook is certainly not a 'consumer' machine, not at this price. It is, if anything a PROsumer device with a price tag to match and that is why the lack of FireWire is really pissing people off. There are plenty of 'consumer' machines out there with reasonable price tags and specs to match which do not cost anything like the MacBook. The reason the MacBook is priced the way it is is because of its enormously expensive production costs and practices. The thing is way overcooked. As for USB being 'as good as' or a worthy alternative to FireWire... USB is craptastic for audio work and even worse for video. There is not one single digital video camera available that can be operated through USB as can be through FireWire. USB video importing is far from reliable also.

Oh, and before you say that some of us are being too emotional and not thinking logically about this whole debacle, well I apologize for being a human being and not operating just like that pretty MacBook. You can go recharge your Li-ion brains now.

[PB]

From what I've read late 2009 to early 2010.
Last year there was talk about 2008. What happened in the meantime?

[SSA]

SSD fits into the MB the way it is. For Blu-ray Apple would have to license more DRM for OS X and could not have made the MB as thin as it is now.

Panasonic released a 9mm Bluray drive at CES nine months ago! You can order one and put it in your Macbook today. Unless Apple has moved to 7mm this argument that there are no Bluray drives that can fit in the chassis is a canard by Apple apologists. Furthermore, why was making the MB thinner such a priority? I didn't see a lot of people saying they wouldn't buy the MB because by gosh it is a few mm too thick! :err:

I realize that MacOS currently doesn't support Bluray playback, but Apple can pad the price of the drive to cover the licensing for the playback software. There are companies that are selling bluray playback software for Windows less than $100 so add $100 plus the cost of the drive plus a 20-30% profit margin and finally round up to the near $50 and offer it as a CTO option. A BD-ROM option would probably be cheaper than an SSD option! While it wouldn't be a popular option, I have a feeling neither is the 128GB SSD either, but Apple is including that option.

[pooped]

The Apple fanbois around here really need to take their tongues outta Stevo's ass and step back from the glory that is Jobs. Some of you people would swallow just about anything Steve threw at you and believe it was for your own good.

Omitting FireWire was not a forward thinking move, It was a cost cutting, penny pinching, upselling exercise plain and simple. Some of you will not remember a time when Apple removed audio ports from their laptops. Others will remember the uproar over that move and the subsequent back pedalling by Apple. Any of you care to live without audio I/O now? Didn't think so.

The MacBook is certainly not a 'consumer' machine, not at this price. It is, if anything a PROsumer device with a price tag to match and that is why the lack of FireWire is really pissing people off. There are plenty of 'consumer' machines out there with reasonable price tags and specs to match which do not cost anything like the MacBook. The reason the MacBook is priced the way it is is because of its enormously expensive production costs and practices. The thing is way overcooked. As for USB being 'as good as' or a worthy alternative to FireWire... USB is craptastic for audio work and even worse for video. There is not one single digital video camera available that can be operated through USB as can be through FireWire. USB video importing is far from reliable also.

Oh, and before you say that some of us are being too emotional and not thinking logically about this whole debacle, well I apologize for being a human being and not operating just like that pretty MacBook. You can go recharge your Li-ion brains now.

I completely agree. well put. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/signs064.gif

[infinitespecter]

Equating the need for FireWire to the need of a screen is more rational?


I was using an extreme example to illustrate how far some will go to justify anything Apple does as correct and good for the market. You're ostensibly an intelligent person who should have picked that up.



You guys are taking a George Bush "with us or against us" stance on this, without taking into account the reality of the computer market.


I could say that you are taking a George Bush "nothing we (Apple) do is wrong" stance on this.


Ultimately this strengthens Apple because it forces anyone who wants to use FireWire will have to buy the more expensive machine.

Except that Apple only provides FW on a 15" notebook. If they had a model that was 13" with FW that was also more expensive, you'd have a point.

[TenoBell]

The Apple fanbois around here really need to take their tongues outta Stevo's ass and step back from the glory that is Jobs. Some of you people would swallow just about anything Steve threw at you and believe it was for your own good.

Not really sure why a civilized conversation has to degrade into personal insults. Outside of the point that you have no evidence or facts to back up your position.

The MacBook is certainly not a 'consumer' machine, not at this price. It is, if anything a PROsumer device with a price tag to match and that is why the lack of FireWire is really pissing people off. There are plenty of 'consumer' machines out there with reasonable price tags and specs to match which do not cost anything like the MacBook. The reason the MacBook is priced the way it is is because of its enormously expensive production costs and practices. The thing is way overcooked. As for USB being 'as good as' or a worthy alternative to FireWire... USB is craptastic for audio work and even worse for video. There is not one single digital video camera available that can be operated through USB as can be through FireWire. USB video importing is far from reliable also.

People have been giving this PC with better specs and lower price cliche for years now. It looks like a tired worn out excuse in the face of the fact that Mac sales are growing faster than the sales of these supposedly better and cheaper PCs.

Ultimately we will have to see if MacBook sales suffer from the lack of FireWire, even though most of the market does not use FireWire.

You lay fanboy insults all you want. But in the end that is what it comes down to.

[TenoBell]

I was using an extreme example to illustrate how far some will go to justify anything Apple does as correct and good for the market. You're ostensibly an intelligent person who should have picked that up.

That extreme example is so ridiculous its not a good example.


I could say that you are taking a George Bush "nothing we (Apple) do is wrong" stance on this.

I never said Apple can do no wrong. I've said several times I would prefer they keep FireWire until a suitable replacement comes. At the same time looking at the reality of the computer market I can understand this choice.

Will most people stop buying MacBooks because it has no FireWire?


Except that Apple only provides FW on a 15" notebook. If they had a model that was 13" with FW that was also more expensive, you'd have a point.

My point is that the 15" is the more expensive machine.

[hmurchison]

I don't know where the data is coming from that postulates that
people aren't using firewire.

Did my Western Digital drive purchase get counted as a USB drive for a Firewire drive? I
use it with my FW connection but my phone has never wrang with someone asking me
just how I hooked up my drive.

My Canon ZR950 has USB but I cannot transfer video data over this connection.


Apple still makes computers ..we still need to see functionality even if that functionality is only used every now and then (Target Disk Mode).

Premium computers should come with premium performance. USB only laptops at @ $1300 are the antithesis of good price/performance.

[MiMac]

Not really sure why a civilized conversation has to degrade into personal insults. Outside of the point that you have no evidence or facts to back up your position.

Certainly not a personal insult... unless you consider yourself a fanboy?
Evidence? Facts? What are you looking for? I'm giving you my personal experience just like many others here who share my concerns.

people have been giving this PC with better specs and lower price cliche for years now. It looks like a tired worn out excuse in the face of the fact that Mac sales are growing faster than the sales of these supposedly better and cheaper PCs.

I did not mention anything about a PC with better specs. :???: I was alluding to any consumer PC with decent specs and a price tag to match.
The MacBook may be slightly better specced than most but it also has a much higher price tag. Mac sales may be growing fast but PCs still outsell Macs by at least 15 to 1. You may not like it, I really don't either but Apple still have a hell of a long climb.

LOOK HERE (http://www.systemshootouts.org/mac_sales.html)

we will have to see if MacBook sales suffer from the lack of FireWire, even though most of the market does not use FireWire.

Where is the evidence to show that most of the 'market' do not use FireWire? How do you know for sure what the majority do or do not use? Maybe if they knew what they were missing then the 'majority' would want FireWire on their fancy prosumer notebook with large price tag to match.
Sales have already suffered. I'm not buying and neither are dozens of others who have said so publicly on these and other boards, never mind those who have quietly read and decided not to buy because FireWire looks 'pretty darn useful now that you mention it.'

[TenoBell]

Where is the evidence to show that most of the 'market' do not use FireWire? How do you know for sure what the majority do or do not use? Maybe if they knew what they were missing then the 'majority' would want FireWire on their fancy prosumer notebook with large price tag to match.
Sales have already suffered. I'm not buying and neither are dozens of others who have said so publicly on these and other boards, never mind those who have quietly read and decided not to buy because FireWire looks 'pretty darn useful now that you mention it.'

Apple is the only OEM that so widely supports FireWire. Intel doesn't support FireWire at all. Its possible to opt for FW most PC users don't see the need and do not opt for it. This is all commonly known.

Looking at the current state of peripheral market most people can get along fine without ever using a FW device. Its impossible to only use FW and never use USB.

Here again is my own list of peripherals and their interfaces. I actually hadn't paid much attention before to the fact that so much is USB. Outside of the hard drive or DVD burner, most other peripherals don't offer a FW option at all.


- Hard Drive (FireWire 400/800, High Speed USB, eSATA)
- DVD Burner (FireWire, USB)
- TV Tuner (USB)
- Digital Camera (USB)
- USB Flash Drive (USB)
- Printer (High Speed USB)
- iPod Video (USB)
- iPhone 3G (USB)

[desides]

The "HD" iTunes movies are only 720p as opposed to 1080p...

The MacBook's screen resolution is 1280x800. Why exactly would you want to watch scaled-down (and much larger, in terms of file size) 1080p content instead of native 720p content on that display?

Show me a 13" macbook pro from 1999 and I will buy it. I do not want or need a larger screen or heavier computer. Plenty of people have said this, firewire is not a $500 upgrade, that is a separate computer with many other things I don't want.

Correct, FireWire is not a $500 upgrade. It is not even a $1 upgrade. It is a near-dead standard.

Buy USB peripherals like the rest of the market, or keep your current computer.

[applebook]

Actually, if you had taken time to read and think about my post before going off on your rant about your personal experience, I was not refuting the fact that aluminum will likely be worse for wi-fi reception than plastic; my only point was that the poster was dead wrong when he said that aluminum "killed it." This is absurd. What does "killed it" mean to you? To English speaking people, this sounds like he is saying that it is so bad that no reasonable person would ever use it.

Thanks for proving my point about the pure ignorance of posters like you, who bring up TWELVE inch laptops (with inferior screens, build quality, graphics, no backlit keyboards, etc.) and try to compare it to the new MB.

Instead of trying to answer a European XPS, I can only look at a North American one because we all know that Euro pricing can vary so widely in different European countries.

As of today at dell.ca:

PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8100 (2.1GHz/800Mhz FSB/3MB cache), English edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition SP1 edit
SYSTEM COLOUR Tuxedo Black edit
LCD AND CAMERA Slim and Light LED Display with VGA Webcam edit
MEMORY 3GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (1GB x 2GB) edit
HARD DRIVE 320G 5400RPM SATA HDD edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability edit
WIRELESS CARD Dell Wireless 1505 Wireless-N Mini-card edit
BATTERY OPTIONS 6 Cell Battery edit
SOUND OPTIONS Integrated Sound Blaster Audigy HD Software Edition edit
GRAPHICS CARD 128MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 8400M GS

$1349 CAD, which is, shocking, wait for it....wait....THE SAME PRICE AS THE ENTRY MACBOOK (educational)!!!! WOW!!!

You do get more RAM and a bigger HDD but an older graphics card and an older CPU. BTW, the HDD and RAM are easy and cheap to replace; you cannot replace the GPU and the CPU. The XPS also lacks a backlit keyboard and is still mostly plastic, with some aluminum accents.

I'm not an Apple "apologist." Stop making sweeping generalizations about other people when you so ardently condemn such an act. In other words, stop being a hypocrite.

I have no intention of buying a new MacBook. :rolleyes:

[infinitespecter]

As far as BD goes, a company called AMEX just released a tiny portable slot loading BD burner (the size of the Air Superdrive) that is USB bus powered, like the Air superdrive, for $300. That would solve that issue for me entirely until Apple gets around to putting them inside.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/10/BD-SuperDrive.jpg
http://gizmodo.com/5064634/amex-portable-super-multi-drive-makes-blu+ray-fashionable

[applebook]

I guess toast 9 is a master piece then. Blu-ray support and software that read and burn bdr for like what? 70 bucks? I've used blu-ray drives on the mac pro as well as the lacie one on a mbp. It isn't complicated. I'm not saying that apple needed to include it this time around but you and the guy you quote are trying to make it sound like a mystical art, it's not. It's already here, toast can do it (and gives you the plugin) and adobe's encore can do it.

They probably just didn't offer it because like steve said licensing and because none of the slot load drives for br are that thin yet. I imagine it'll be a bto on the next mac pro.

People don't have to wait though, you can get one for a mac pro for less than 250 now.

It's funny that you should mention Toast because I do consider it to be somewhat of a "masterpiece." I certainly wouldn't use anything else to burn stuff.

However, the fact remains that Apple itself doesn't have the software to RUN blu-ray smoothly. By run, I mean play the films, not just read data.

[Boondox]

I think it's very funny that if you see the lack of Firewire from a different perspective and you rationally try to explain why you are not up in arms about it, then you are a fanboy.

[applebook]

That's not true pretty much any 599 and up consumer laptop has 4-pin firewire 400 on it. Unless you're talking about netbooks you must not have looked at other manufacturers.

Just to prove you wrong, here are a few random PC laptops without FW, all listed on Futureshop's front page:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10111628&catid=25315&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE279AE25BADB50ADA DA

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112042&catid=25315&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112239&catid=26917&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD&sku_id=0665000FS10111628&catid=



Here is a Sony with one, but is is $1K
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112459&catid=25314&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

A 13" laptop without FW:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD&sku_id=0665000FS10101467&catid=


As you can see, not "pretty much every every 599 and up consumer laptop has 4-pin firewire 400 on it."

[hmurchison]

The MacBook's screen resolution is 1280x800. Why exactly would you want to watch scaled-down (and much larger, in terms of file size) 1080p content instead of native 720p content on that display?



Correct, FireWire is not a $500 upgrade. It is not even a $1 upgrade. It is a near-dead standard.

Buy USB peripherals like the rest of the market, or keep your current computer.

Define "near dead"

If no one cared ..there wouldn't be the anger being displayed out here. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean that plenty of others don't.

[hmurchison]

I think it's very funny that if you see the lack of Firewire from a different perspective and you rationally try to explain why you are not up in arms about it, then you are a fanboy.

Yes moron is a much better title.

[applebook]

Define "near dead"

If no one cared ..there wouldn't be the anger being displayed out here. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean that plenty of others don't.

I think that "near dead" means that almost no consumer electronic uses FW exclusively anymore, and he is correct.

The outrage on this board reflects several things:

1. Ignorance by some
2. Genuine complains by those who really do need it

For those in the 2nd group, I understand their disappointment, but their group is still very small compared to the the large consumer market that doesn't even use FW.

[hmurchison]

I think that "near dead" means that almost no consumer electronic uses FW exclusively anymore, and he is correct.

The outrage on this board reflects several things:

1. Ignorance by some
2. Genuine complains by those who really do need it

For those in the 2nd group, I understand their disappointment, but their group is still very small compared to the the large consumer market that doesn't even use FW.

I disagree the anger to me reflects


1. An understanding that Apple is a premium computer manufacturer and that means that we understand that they don't scrape bottom barrell but we also understand that we expect them to go the extra mile in a few areas to deliver premium performance.

2. The assumption that the consumer market is what should dictate Apple's featureset is quite absurd. The consumer market doesn't dicatate aluminum chassis but Apple has delivered that. In fact most consumer laptops have more connectivity options (card reader, expresscard, eSATA ports) yet Apple remains ignorant of those features.


Apple has long been the company that gave "more" perhaps the RAM and HDD storage didn't match but dammit we could point to the Superdrive or the built in SCSI or Gigabit Ethernet and say "we're cutting edge" .

The Macbooks are sadly missing cutting edge save for the gorgeous case.

[TenoBell]

The Macbooks are sadly missing cutting edge save for the gorgeous case.

The aluminum manufacturing process and 65nm Nvidia chipset on one die are both cutting edge. The disappointment of firewire cannot take away from that fact.

[hmurchison]

The aluminum manufacturing process and 65nm Nvidia chipset on one die are both cutting edge. The disappointment of firewire cannot take away from that fact.

eSATA ..can't add it
Future wireless technology like Wimax can't add it
Card Reader ...not there use a USB port

They have no expansion and have jettisoned the only other viable connection they had yet they are %10. That is not value.

Apple's legacy of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is legendary. If companies had afflictions like ADHD ...Apple would be the poster child.

[TenoBell]

Moving and moved are two entirely different things. You must not work in video because you dont' understand how important this is. Panasonic is currently the only manufacturer with a prosumer camera that doesn't have firewire, and it's limted to model you posted. Sony for example just announced 3 new firewire based prosumer units. What will happen in 5 years should not reflect the state of computers now.

I am a filmmaker. Yes I do understand how important Firewire is. Most of the people I work with are using MacBook Pro, Power Mac, and Mac Pro. I cannot think of anyone around me who is using MacBook for professional video work.

You need to look more closely at Sony's consumer line of cameras USB across the board. Panasonic, JVC, and Canon are using USB across the board prosumer and consumer.

[Boondox]

Yes moron is a much better title.

If I don't agree with you, I'm a moron? Good to know that I should automatically discount your thoughts on this for irrationality.

[hmurchison]

If I don't agree with you, I'm a moron? Good to know that I should automatically discount your thoughts on this for irrationality.

Yes but if a person is moronic ...would I really need them to "count" my thoughts? The minute I begin to agree with morons means I am in fact a moron. I don't want to be a moron.



TenoBell- I can definitely see the video market moving away from any kind of wire connection save for say SDI or HD-SDI. You have Panny and the P2 and Sony and their SxS Expresscard based memory sticks. It makes sense to capture and then remove the card ..ingest and and edit.

Firewire for audio tends to be a bit different. It's more bi-directional. You have high end FW effects boxes like

Duende (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/duende/index.asp)
TC Electronic Powercore (http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCoreFireWire)

and a plethora of audio interfaces where firewire does indeed make a difference over USB.

I've seen a bunch of dumbed down responses that center around "well I don't have any firewire devices so it must not be necessary"

Because of Apple's narrow product line the removal of some features affect users in other areas. I know I've been a bit obtuse about glossy vs matte screens. But then I got to thinking. Apple has a BTO program...there's no reason to have customers upset because they've been forced into buying one type of LCD. Macbooks should come in what the majority favors but Macbook Pros should be offered in a choice.

[Hudson1]

Just to prove you wrong, here are a few random PC laptops without FW, all listed on Futureshop's front page:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10111628&catid=25315&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE279AE25BADB50ADA DA

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112042&catid=25315&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112239&catid=26917&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD&sku_id=0665000FS10111628&catid=



Here is a Sony with one, but is is $1K
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10112459&catid=25314&logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD

A 13" laptop without FW:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B21FF208C41AAB815B569A6F A906B27D26761D0DB535965733C6D3A9238A1CAB2C5D7F2A4F 1E156D953EF70CE77B6EA3B1452236205C52087CB09A45D834 85123B3F2F66BD8CB5A4C86F0515E5519EB9BC5B570220C839 8A9F6AB38587C053BA482C146E37AFEAFE278F9D8379A55DE0 8DCE4E6EE75EC998CB2E904E3C99AEDE227841938FBB8B3792 FA885AC0010472C2F50054585379039D1393FDD635C8DDAE05 41E64A5DB4133066EE6A0A509D3015A2E77E9450C6B5EB6E52 F1826CE417BD&sku_id=0665000FS10101467&catid=


As you can see, not "pretty much every every 599 and up consumer laptop has 4-pin firewire 400 on it."

However, three of those five laptops without built-in FireWire still can be outfitted with the capability by simply buying a FireWire ExpressCard.

[desides]

Define "near dead"

"Relatively uncommon on electronics devices, and if present is in the company of at least one other connection port." External hard drives are almost never found without USB, and consumer video cameras have switched over to USB; at this point, the only equipment that truly needs FireWire is external audio equipment for professionals, which is a pretty niche market segment. Or at the very least, they fall outside of the market Apple wishes to serve with the MacBook.

If no one cared ..there wouldn't be the anger being displayed out here. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean that plenty of others don't.

The anger is over older equipment without USB slots. Again, the options are to retain your current equipment, buy a Pro, or buy a white MacBook.

[hmurchison]

"Relatively uncommon on electronics devices, and if present is in the company of at least one other connection port." External hard drives are almost never found without USB, and consumer video cameras have switched over to USB; at this point, the only equipment that truly needs FireWire is external audio equipment for professionals, which is a pretty niche market segment. Or at the very least, they fall outside of the market Apple wishes to serve with the MacBook.



The anger is over older equipment without USB slots. Again, the options are to retain your current equipment, buy a Pro, or buy a white MacBook.

I didn't think you had a sufficient reason for your "near dead" comment. Firewire does things that USB cannot do and that's why it's popular in some areas. Because the masses only do mundane things like hook up printers or extra hard drives doesn't mean there isn't a need for "smarter" technology.

[johnqh]

I didn't think you had a sufficient reason for your "near dead" comment. Firewire does things that USB cannot do and that's why it's popular in some areas. Because the masses only do mundane things like hook up printers or extra hard drives doesn't mean there isn't a need for "smarter" technology.

SCSI does somethings that IDE/SATA do not do.

Even ADB does something USB doesn't do (power key on the keyboard).

Newton does something(handwriting recognition) no other PDA/cell phone could do even today.

[desides]

Firewire does things that USB cannot do and that's why it's popular in some areas. Because the masses only do mundane things like hook up printers or extra hard drives doesn't mean there isn't a need for "smarter" technology.

Trouble is, the MacBook is a consumer level product. Or to borrow your derisive terminology, it's a notebook for the "masses." USB has been the dominant connection standard in the market for years because it's everything most people need, and because it's universally supported. The same cannot be said of FireWire.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but reality is reality. Again: buy a MacBook Pro, buy a white MacBook, or continue to use your current computer.

[hmurchison]

Trouble is, the MacBook is a consumer level product. Or to borrow your derisive terminology, it's a notebook for the "masses." USB has been the dominant connection standard in the market for years because it's everything most people need, and because it's universally supported. The same cannot be said of FireWire.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but reality is reality. Again: buy a MacBook Pro, buy a white MacBook, or continue to use your current computer.

I don't like it and neither does a lot of people. But you're right ..reality is reality...though I think that the legions of disgruntled will continue to voice their opinion.

EVERY Macbook until Oct 14 has had FW. There's really no excuse for Apple not offering FW given their history and the partnerships they've done with Apogee and other vendors.

[electrosaurus]

I'm not convinced that the new models are as over-priced as people are making them out to be.

In New Zealand, the new high-end aluminium Macbook costs NZ$2899, compared to the old high-end black Macbook, which cost NZ$2399.

So that's five hundred more, and what do you get for it?

A bigger FSB on the core (800Mhz -> 1066Mhz)
Higher speed RAM (DDR2 667Mhz -> DDR3 1066Mhz)
Backlit keyboard.
Apparently far superior graphics chip.
An enlarged glass trackpad with superior multi-touch gestures.

And of course the new manufacturing process, making for a lighter, thinner, stronger, prettier laptop.

Oh and don't forget that thumbscoop! :lol:

What do you lose? Firewire and a matte-screen option (I think).

Sure, it's not exactly 'aggressive' pricing. And I don't know whether the upgrades are quantifiably 'worth' an extra NZ$500. But it isn't a rip-off.

On a side-note, one awesome thing is that Apple have given NZers a really good deal! The price is much lower than what you get if you convert the American price to NZ dollars and add our taxes! Awesome!

[applebook]

The fact remains that most consumer PC laptops do not have firewire.

[hmurchison]

The fact remains that most consumer PC laptops do not have firewire.

Yes but %60 of them add Firewire. I don't mind if Apple takes the feature away and I just have to pay for it but they've taken a feature away that cannot be added. Fact.

Apple thwarts internal expansion so we must be more strict about missing features.

[applebook]

Yes but %60 of them add Firewire. I don't mind if Apple takes the feature away and I just have to pay for it but they've taken a feature away that cannot be added. Fact.

Apple thwarts internal expansion so we must be more strict about missing features.

Well, there are USB converters out there. For most PC laptops under $1K, you have to get an express card for FW, so I suppose you could get a USB converter. I don't disagree with many of the complaints here. If FW were truly as useless as Apple claims, then very few people would complain, but there are tons of unhappy prospective buyers. I can understand their frustration.

[natefrogg]

they need an upgrade to the old 12" powerbook, give us firewire 800 and an express card slot, but with the 12" footprint

the macbook pro's are nice, but they are too big for some things, even photographers at work are holding onto their trusty 12" powerbooks that go everywhere with them, they are already bringing along a ton of gear and require a full featured, fast, reliable apple computer

at least this will drive down the price on the previous generation, refurbs will be nice, the $999 white one isn't bad either, too bad it's white though

c'est la vie, apple gives and apple takes...

[natefrogg]

they need an upgrade to the old 12" powerbook, give us firewire 800 and an express card slot, but with the 12" footprint

the macbook pro's are nice, but they are too big for some things, even photographers at work are holding onto their trusty 12" powerbooks that go everywhere with them, they are already bringing along a ton of gear and require a full featured, fast, reliable apple computer

at least this will drive down the price on the previous generation, refurbs will be nice, the $999 white one isn't bad either, too bad it's white though

c'est la vie, apple gives and apple takes...

[infinitespecter]

Trouble is, the MacBook is a consumer level product.

I've been thinking about that. Looking at how it is constructed, the hardware it has, and the price point it meets, it is NOT a consumer notebook by any stretch. It competes with 13" "pro" notebooks like the Dell XPS and Sony Vaio SR. Consumers, in general, don't spend $1600 on a notebook anymore. Nothing about it says "price conscious."

[infinitespecter]

Well, there are USB converters out there. For most PC laptops under $1K, you have to get an express card for FW, so I suppose you could get a USB converter.

An expresscard is literally portable PCI Express card. It's like adding a FW card to a Mac Pro. A USB converter (if one existed) is... a converter and won't even work for most of the uses that most people are mentioning here.

[hmurchison]

I've been thinking about that. Looking at how it is constructed, the hardware it has, and the price point it meets, it is NOT a consumer notebook by any stretch. It competes with 13" "pro" notebooks like the Dell XPS and Sony Vaio SR. Consumers, in general, don't spend $1600 on a notebook anymore. Nothing about it says "price conscious."

Hear hear $1600 is NOT consumer pricing.

$800 is a "nice" laptop to most consumers. I think that the $1599 Macbook should have been a Pro model but then let's look at this logically. Could they have shoe horned in an expresscard slot and discrete graphics?

I think form has hampered function here preventing a small MBP.

[TBaggins]

WOW... is this thread gonna hit 500 posts? Amazing.

Oh, and check out my sig. ;)

...

[TBaggins]

How many of the people defending lack of Firewire in the MacBook actually believe what they are saying? If Apple had continued to offer Firewire in the MacBook, these same people would be praising Apple because:

"Firewire is so superior to USB"

"MacBook offers high end features not found on bargain basement laptops"

"Target Disk Mode make Macs so much superior to PCs"

But now that Apple dropped Firewire, these same people will just say "Who needs it anyway?"

No matter what Apple does, the Apple defenders will be right there to rationalize and defend them. If Apple completely changes direction, the Apple defenders will also change their story and contradict themselves right along with Apple. Instead of flip-flopping back and forth, why don't you stand by your beliefs?

There will be no video iPods. Nobody wants to watch video on iPods.

Apple will not make a cell phone.

Apple will never switch to Intel processors.

Who needs automatic memory allocation? Just click Get Info and change the memory yourself.

Who needs preemptive multitasking or memory protection since Macs never crash?

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/675276/2/istockphoto_675276-target-bullseye.jpg

[desides]

I've been thinking about that. Looking at how it is constructed, the hardware it has, and the price point it meets, it is NOT a consumer notebook by any stretch. It competes with 13" "pro" notebooks like the Dell XPS and Sony Vaio SR. Consumers, in general, don't spend $1600 on a notebook anymore. Nothing about it says "price conscious."

"Consumer notebook" is not synonymous with "budget pricing."

[hmurchison]

AI is a site for computer enthusiasts.

I think the reality is that I'm a computer enthusiast and
even though I may not utilize the technology in the same
way as others here I realize that a premium brand like Apple
should be delivering technology that is superior. Jobs loves
to state that Apple makes the best computers available but
what exactly does that mean?

Fierwire is superior technology that was available to anyone
who chose a Mac. Now for the sake of design..we've lost
FW and that doesn't sit well with me or others that are actually
seeing the benefits of this superior technology.

[AnaAhlawy]

Ok, what about the white macbook? Price/value wise where is it among other notebooks?

First time to touch this thing at apple store, and I guess its love at first sight!! It is a heck of a sturdy notebook, my only worry is that the screen is a one piece thing, besides being glass, so you break it you.........

Why is everybody comparing the higher end of the MB with other pcs I mean why are not you comparing the aluminium MB entry price to other MB?!

[hmurchison]

Ok, what about the white macbook? Price/value wise where is it among other notebooks?

First time to touch this thing at apple store, and I guess its love at first sight!! It is a heck of a sturdy notebook, my only worry is that the screen is a one piece thing, besides being glass, so you break it you.........

Why is everybody comparing the higher end of the MB with other pcs I mean why are not you comparing the aluminium MB entry price to other MB?!


The white Macbook isn't a horrible value but it's not that good either. I think that it's reasonable to expect graphics performance that's on par with the avg notebook in 2009 and with the X3100 graphics in the WMB you're behind the pack.

Yes ..do not break the new Alu Macbook glass or you're in for a world of hurt. While the unibody chassis is probably stronger and less impervious to damage the screen is going to cause a lot of warranty battles between customers and Apple.

[edmaster]

Well since firewire doesn't matter to me because I have an iMac at home, I went to the Apple Store tonight to touch and caress the new MacBooks and see them in person. Honestly, they're spectacular. Sturdy. Gorgeous. Sleek in design and use. The trackpad is a real innovation. After using that for a few minutes I tested out the old white machine and I was actually annoyed I had to press a separate button on the trackpad.

So it's on order. And I can't wait. I can definitely understand the angst of those of you with a bunch of FW peripherals, and sorry I couldn't stay with you in no-purchase solidarity, but I need it... and I think it's the perfect machine for me. 8-)

[PXT]

The MacBook Air is such a niche product that it may very well die in a years time.

Its a funny thing, I've been an avid supporter of Apple products over the years and have bought many pieces of Apple kit as well as recommending Macs to friends and family alike.
Now here's the thing. Just recently I have been asked for an honest opinion and purchasing advice as regards a home computer for a school child. While I really wanted to be able to recommend an Apple purchase I really could not due to three main factors.

1: The market domination of Windows PC's in schools.
2: The increasingly frustrating trend of Macs becoming more form over function (you get a better deal on a PC tech wise) , which brings me to...
3: Price. That is the real deal breaker. Never mind running Windows on a Mac via BootCamp et al. Money talks.

So the purchase of a new HP Pavillion with dual core etc. etc. was made and you know what... the thing is, it's a beautiful piece of kit and half the price of a Mac! Damn I hate myself.

The current debacle over the 'new' MacBook less FireWire has done nothing to shore up any faith that I may have had left in Apple. It looks like they are heading down the wrong path with Steve blindly leading the way, It's a one way street. HIS way. Pissing off your loyal user base is certainly not the way to go, neither is overpriced, under specced machines. "But its sooo pretty!" Who cares! Maybe it's time for Steve to go.

But the best selling Mac ever, with firewire and superdrive, has comes down from $1299 to $999. It comes with an OS that has a level of stability and security that you cannot buy on a PC at any price, plus apps that are easier and more integrated to use than anything on a PC - and it's $300 cheaper than ever before.

Isn't anybody happy about that?

[guinness]

The fact remains that most consumer PC laptops do not have firewire.

Yes they do, but most have 4-pin FW 400.

Most PC laptops are the 15.4" variety, so it's trivial to include ExpressCard, S-Video/VGA out, more USB ports (3-4), Ethernet/modem, some have HDMI out as well.