iPhone 3.0: 100 new features for users; 1,000 new APIs for devs [Archive]

AppleInsider

03-17-2009, 02:18 PM

Apple on Tuesday previewed its iPhone OS 3.0 software which includes over 1,000 new APIs for developers and over 100 new features for end users, including Copy & Paste, multimedia messaging, and a landscape mode for applications like Mail and Notes.

"The new iPhone OS 3.0 is a major software release packed with incredible new features and innovations for iPhone customers and developers alike," said the company's marketing chief, Philip Schiller. "It will keep us years ahead of the competition."

For Developers

Members of Apple's iPhone developer program can download a beta release iPhone OS 3.0 sometime today (preview page) that includes an updated iPhone Software Development Kit (SDK) with over 1,000 new Application Programming Interfaces (APIs) that will facilitate new capabilities such as in-app content purchases; peer-to-peer connections over Bonjour; an app interface for hardware accessories; access to the iPod music library; a new Maps API and the long-awaited push notification support.

More specifically, Apple announced that in-app purchases will allow developers to offer subscription content and provide the ability to sell new content and features in a simple and secure process from directly within their apps. Meanwhile, game developers can leverage the new peer-to-peer connections support to more easily create peer-to-peer network games for iPhone and iPod touch by using Bluetooth.

Another key developer feature in the iPhone OS 3.0 beta software is the ability for apps to interface with proprietary hardware accessories manufactured by third-party accessory makers, creating a whole new element of control for iPhone and iPod touch accessory developers as well as a new ecosystem of solutions for customers.

Developers will also be able to use Apple's new Maps API to integrate Google Mobile Maps services within their apps which will offer Google Map tiles, current location, custom annotations and geocoding. The iPhone OS 3.0 beta software includes the Apple Push Notification service which provides developers with a mechanism to alert users with sounds, text or a badge messages in real-time.

For Users

For iPhone and iPod touch owners, Apple announced over 100 new features that will be available when iPhone OS 3.0 is released this summer including cut, copy and paste, which can be done within or across applications; MMS to send and receive photos; contacts; audio files and locations with the Messages app; and the ability to capture and send audio recordings on the go with the new Voice Memo app.

You double tap onto the text, and it automatically selects that text, adding grab points you can drag to customize your selection.

Landscape view will also be available for Mail, Text and Notes. Search capabilities will be expanded, allowing customers to search within Mail, iPod and Notes or search across all key apps by typing a key word or phrase into the new Spotlight search, conveniently accessed from the Home screen.

An updated Stock app will add the ability to display recent company news and current trading information like opening or average price, trading volume or Market Cap, and will offer a landscape view to see a full screen of any stock chart. Users will also be able to view shared calendars right on their iPhone with CalDAV support and sync their calendars with iCal, Yahoo, Google and Oracle.

Apple also announced that the App Store has more than 25,000 applications available to consumers, and 15 more countries have been added so the App Store is now available in 77 countries, allowing developers to reach more than 30 million iPhone and iPod touch users around the world.

As part of this announcement, Apple said it's sold 17 million iPhones to date and a total of 30 million multi-touch handhelds when sales of iPod touches are included. This means the company has sold 13 million iPod touches in approximately 18-months, marking the first time it has broken out sales figures for the touch.

Availability

The iPhone OS 3.0 beta software and SDK will be available for registered developers to download starting today. iPhone customers will be able to download the new iPhone OS 3.0 software for free this summer and iPod touch customers will be able to purchase the software update for $9.95. Apple notes that MMS messaging will be available only on iPhone 3G and that fees may apply. Some iPhone 3.0 features may also not be supported by older hardware, such as the original iPhone, citing differences in the internal radio.

Additional Details

For additional details, please see AppleInsider stories addressing individual topics:

iPhone 3.0 adds Copy & Paste, MMS, global Spotlight search
iPhone 3.0 to include peer-to-peer support, push notification
App Store audience hits 30 million users, 13M iPod touches sold
Developers show off new features of iPhone 3.0
Apple on iPhone tethering, Flash support, and Copy & Paste[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ] (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=11039)

Ireland

03-17-2009, 02:43 PM

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 02:44 PM

All in all a great update, now we have "the great wait".

Happy St. Paddy's Day, Ireland! :D

WelshDog

03-17-2009, 02:46 PM

iVlad

03-17-2009, 02:48 PM

These good news make me forget about failing economy and all other global problems. =) LOL

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 02:49 PM

Ireland

03-17-2009, 02:51 PM

Happy St. Paddy's Day, Ireland! :D

Thank you! You see me in a pub drinking Guinness, fighting and burping. Don't you? Don't you!!? :D

Really I'm in my robe, being the sickest I've been in years. I'm a walking drug store. Fell like I have TB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis). Probably that Australian flu virus (not bird-flu).

MacGui

03-17-2009, 02:54 PM

So it's free for all iPhone Revs and $10 for iPod Touch types?

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 02:55 PM

When you step back and think about what this little device is doing and what it can do - it's kind of mind blowing. This update is very impressive, particularly taken on top of the already great 2.0 software.

If I recall correctly, I theorized that iPhone could become a platform for all kinds of devices. Now with the examples of medical hardware and software being shown, this is going to really blow the lid off of at-home diagnostics.

tomkarl

03-17-2009, 02:56 PM

wow.. it took two major releases to implement something as simple as copy-paste and mms... iPhone really is the only Apple product I have som major problems seeing any value to. iPhone really is _not_ state of the art in any way in contrast to the mac

I was really hoping that the announcement of copy/paste and MMS would STOP people from complaining about these features not existing.

(features that I personally haven't missed one bit in two years of use)

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 02:56 PM

Thank you! You see me in a pub drinking Guinness, fighting and burping. Don't you? Don't you!!? :D

Really I'm in my robe, being the sickest I've been in years. I'm a walking drug store. Fell like I have TB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis). Probably that Australian flu virus (not bird-flu).

No, I never thought you were a stereotypical Irishman. :D

Sorry to hear you're sick. Think good thoughts... about Apple. ;)

razorpit

03-17-2009, 02:57 PM

I tried looking but couldn't find any info, did they mention syncing of tasks in iCal?

djbeta

03-17-2009, 02:57 PM

I agree that this is a great update.... but, no video?

Come ON..

:(

I actually love to snap video using Cycorder.. it's QUITE good !!!!!!

any guesses on whether Saurik will be able to port Cycorder to 3.0 and allow it to work with MMS ?

markm49uk

03-17-2009, 02:59 PM

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:02 PM

All in all a "great update". They pretty much addressed all the software gripes the majority of people had (http://pleasefixtheiphone.com/). Now we have "the great wait", for 3.0, and then the unlock period for those of us who want out of jail.

The big news will be in the summer when 3.0 comes out and Apple announce new hardware. I'm looking for a "good" camera with xenon flash and auto-focus, 32GB storage, and an OLED display. This will be the bigger news in my eyes, for my use!

Now i could care less about a 'good' built-in camera... The news is about the ability to provide software for devices plugged into the dock connector.
If any of the camera companies are smart, we might now see camera bodies to which you connect the touch/iPhone as a controller/preview.
THEN we'll start seeing some quality... great lenses, zoom, flash etc with the ability to update the software on the controller.
Camera quality on a phone is a dead end because after a certain point, its all about the lenses. We now have that option, if anyone will wake up and do it.

And musicians can start connecting their midi rigs through the dock connector and the iPhone/touch becomes a GREAT performance controller.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 03:02 PM

You are kidding right ?:???:

not really, I think it's great that it has gained Apple additional popularity in the US though.. however, in sweden, the iPhone is associated with "white trash" (no other Apple product is)

(I really hope noone takes offence by that :) )

VertiGoGo

03-17-2009, 03:04 PM

I was really hoping that the announcement of copy/paste and MMS would STOP people from complaining about these features not existing.

(features that I personally haven't missed one bit in two years of use)

It might help if Apple communications/marketing would stop calling every new "feature" something ground-breaking etc. Cut & Paste, MMS should have been introduced in the very beginning - as far less innovative cell phones were already doing it.

Now, what about video in iPhone 3.0? I've seen mention of audio recording and sending on the go, but no mention of video. Is it available now or are we going to have to wait for iPhone 4.0?

Video is the most important "feature" still missing from the device (now that cut & paste is getting dealt with). Personally...I have cursed not having cut and paste almost everyday and have been extremely irritated with Apple for forcing me to come up with ridiculous work-arounds for a so-called feature that has been around since before Windows 3.1.

So, thanks to Apple for finishing the job it started.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 03:08 PM

...
Camera quality on a phone is a dead end because after a certain point, its all about the lenses. We now have that option, if anyone will wake up and do it.
...

so very true.. it really bugs me that some people actually juges smartphones by "how many megapixels they have".. anything above 5 MP is overkill without a proper lens. there is a reason for the top quality digital cameras being of the physical size they are.

iVlad

03-17-2009, 03:11 PM

not really, I think it's great that it has gained Apple additional popularity in the US though.. however, in sweden, the iPhone is associated with "white trash" (no other Apple product is)

(I really hope noone takes offence by that :) )

well whatever, i'll take that 'white trash' over any crackberry any day
:)

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 03:12 PM

It might help if Apple communications/marketing would stop calling every new "feature" something ground-breaking etc. Cut & Paste, MMS should have been introduced in the very beginning - as far less innovative cell phones were already doing it.

Now, what about video in iPhone 3.0? I've seen mention of audio recording and sending on the go, but no mention of video. Is it available now or are we going to have to wait for iPhone 4.0?

Video is the most important "feature" still missing from the device (now that cut & paste is getting dealt with). Personally...I have cursed not having cut and paste almost everyday and have been extremely irritated with Apple for forcing me to come up with ridiculous work-arounds for a so-called feature that has been around since before Windows 3.1.

So, thanks to Apple for finishing the job it started.

another very basic feature missing is the ability to run several applications at once. maybe they could implement it like "spaces" in OS X.. that would be pretty neat.

vinney57

03-17-2009, 03:15 PM

vorst

03-17-2009, 03:16 PM

not really, I think it's great that it has gained Apple additional popularity in the US though.. however, in sweden, the iPhone is associated with "white trash" (no other Apple product is)

(I really hope noone takes offence by that :) )

Maybe "Cbswe" work for Ericsson (Sweden), they thought the same thing about Finland (Nokia), now they own 40% of the Mobile GSM market.

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:16 PM

wow.. it took two major releases to implement something as simple as copy-paste and mms... iPhone really is the only Apple product I have som major problems seeing any value to. iPhone really is _not_ state of the art in any way in contrast to the mac

Ah, there we go again with the "European and Japanes phone users are SOOOOO far ahead of US" nonsense.
What they have is unusable phones with tons of useless features that can't be used.
This is just typical european US-envy. :)

vinney57

03-17-2009, 03:18 PM

another very basic feature missing is the ability to run several applications at once. maybe they could implement it like "spaces" in OS X.. that would be pretty neat.

You are so missing the point that you are either completely stupid or just a troll.

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:24 PM

It might help if Apple communications/marketing would stop calling every new "feature" something ground-breaking etc. Cut & Paste, MMS should have been introduced in the very beginning - as far less innovative cell phones were already doing it.
.

Jeez... didn't even read the post, did you.
Really... this is NOT the simple task that bedroom scripters seem to think it is.
Opening up the clipboard (a LOVELY attack vector) as a common breeding ground between apps is fraught with risks.
It took time not because of coding difficulties (which amateurs always think is the big hard problem), but in designing a good interface and dealing with security issues at a LOWER LEVEL!!
One of the tin-hat "Apple is out to screw us" types has to explain to me the great benefit Apple would have by intentionally withholding C/P.
I'm dying to hear this brilliant business analysis.

hmurchison

03-17-2009, 03:25 PM

another very basic feature missing is the ability to run several applications at once. maybe they could implement it like "spaces" in OS X.. that would be pretty neat.

I'm going to have to side with Apple on this one. I think that the need for running apps simultaneously on a phone is overblown.

Other than say listening to music whilst you do another task there really doesn't seem to be any reason why a lot of apps need to be running.

In fact I hope that Apple takes this push notification feature and brings it to desktop/laptop applications. When I look at my Activity Monitor I see these "agents"
running for apps I barely use and they sit there and consume CPU cycles and RAM.

Spotlight isn't just a searching mechanism it also works in conjuction with the filesystem to keep apps up data about changes. I don't need these little agents watching constantly when they can simply contact the filestystem for a log of all changes upon launch.

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:26 PM

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 03:32 PM

Complete rubbish.

The social mores of Swedes are quite irrelevant.

well thank you for taking my post the wrong way and generalise as well as insult my country

Boogerman2000

03-17-2009, 03:36 PM

so very true.. it really bugs me that some people actually juges smartphones by "how many megapixels they have".. anything above 5 MP is overkill without a proper lens. there is a reason for the top quality digital cameras being of the physical size they are.

Many of us are simply looking for something a bit better than what is currently offered. How about a 3 or 4 mp upgrade with added functionality? I don't think that's too much to ask for at this point.

mhegge64

03-17-2009, 03:38 PM

We have yet to see Apple acknowledge the event accept/calendar issues with the current version :mad:

Happens with Exchange and Kerio mail server systems.

Hope to heck it is fixed soon!

vorst

03-17-2009, 03:44 PM

Ah, there we go again with the "European and Japanes phone users are SOOOOO far ahead of US" nonsense.
What they have is unusable phones with tons of useless features that can't be used.
This is just typical european US-envy. :)

I'm living in Belgium (Europe). I have been a Nokia users for years and loved the user interface and reliability. Most Sony, Motorola didn't meet the quality and technology that Nokia offered.
Now suddenly Blackberry took the lead in the business world with there Nokia like quality with super email functionality.
I don't have a iphone (only an iPod touch) but it is amazing that 2 year old phone can be updated with 100 new functions + the 100 more features which were available in version 2 software.
I use to have a Nokia E61 Smart phone and I couldn't even updated it or I had to wipe the all thing, It was so complicated it would have taken me one day to find out to do it right. AND I ONLY GOT BUG FIXES.
My 7 month old Blackberry Curve is great device but I don't see any new features.
I see people complaining not having support for MMS in iphone1 with version 3.0, sorry to hear you only will have 99 new features !!!!

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 03:48 PM

Ah, there we go again with the "European and Japanes phone users are SOOOOO far ahead of US" nonsense.
What they have is unusable phones with tons of useless features that can't be used.
This is just typical european US-envy. :)

It probably is a culture thing.. I think it's kinda weird though that the iPhone has struck US as the first "this is it"-phone.. as I have understood it, smartphones, with exception for blackberrys, has been somewhat of a miss in the US until the iPhone.. that would have been all great, if not apple had limited the phone and made it a lot more like a ordinary cell phone with extra features rather then a proper smartphone

You are so missing the point that you are either completely stupid or just a troll.

no, I really think I am _not_ missing the point.. I would like to stress that I do have tast in products and I am not one of those tech spec-geeks who thinks a acer laptop is "superior" to a macbook just because it has more GHz, has more USB-ports or something similar. I am very aware of the end user experience for the iPhone and as I said, I think of myself as a person with taste

I'm going to have to side with Apple on this one. I think that the need for running apps simultaneously on a phone is overblown.

Other than say listening to music whilst you do another task there really doesn't seem to be any reason why a lot of apps need to be running.

In fact I hope that Apple takes this push notification feature and brings it to desktop/laptop applications. When I look at my Activity Monitor I see these "agents"
running for apps I barely use and they sit there and consume CPU cycles and RAM.

Spotlight isn't just a searching mechanism it also works in conjuction with the filesystem to keep apps up data about changes. I don't need these little agents watching constantly when they can simply contact the filestystem for a log of all changes upon launch.

well, there you go.. it's sort of the problem in a nutshell.. the iPhone is kind of setting the norm for smartphones in the US.. and the norm will be phones that can run one app at once.. and the design of the smartphone systems will follow that niche. The end result will be bad compatibility between computers and smartphones because they will distance as computer units.

with the iPod it's fine.. a music player is best as just a music player.. but the smartphone really should be useable as the step down from a laptop

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:54 PM

[QUOTE=Cbswe;1391711

well, there you go.. it's sort of the problem in a nutshell.. the iPhone is kind of setting the norm for smartphones in the US.. and the norm will be phones that can run one app at once.. and the design of the smartphone systems will follow that niche. The end result will be bad compatibility between computers and smartphones because they will distance as computer units.
[/QUOTE]

I dunno about that...
Palm Pre is claiming background apps. We'll see if that's the 'must have' feature or not. If it isn't, then maybe US users are right, huh?
BTW, running background 'apps' is not that particularly awe inspiring when the apps are essentially glorified HyperCard stacks. (Although I loved HyperCard.)

phalanx

03-17-2009, 03:57 PM

GQB

03-17-2009, 03:59 PM

mstone

03-17-2009, 03:59 PM

Many of us are simply looking for something a bit better than what is currently offered. How about a 3 or 4 mp upgrade with added functionality? I don't think that's too much to ask for at this point.

It really IS all about the lens and the CMOS and the lighting and shadow detail. For example, take a high quality image and res it down to 2 MP. In comparison to anything the iPhone can produce the difference is huge.

hmurchison

03-17-2009, 04:02 PM

...
I am happy for apple fans that their precious phone will soon have most of the capabilities of everyone elses phone. Talk about brilliant intellect. Paying more for less just to impress your friends.

Or drive the detractors wild with envy. :p

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:05 PM

wow.. it took two major releases to implement something as simple as copy-paste and mms... iPhone really is the only Apple product I have som major problems seeing any value to. iPhone really is _not_ state of the art in any way in contrast to the mac

Copy and paste is not EASY. It's very difficult.

MMS is easy, but Apple didn't want to do it.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 04:08 PM

Copy and paste is not EASY. It's very difficult.

MMS is easy, but Apple didn't want to do it.

even I could write an algorithm for copy-paste.. god only knows the reason for Apple not implementing it initially

arteckx

03-17-2009, 04:09 PM

More specifically, Apple announced that in-app purchases will allow developers to offer subscription content and provide the ability to sell new content and features in a simple and secure process from directly within their apps.

I don't think they should be restricting this to paid apps. It seems like it would be an even better feature for free apps. Instead of developers releasing a free and a paid version, they could just release the free version and use this new system to add the levels/features that are present in the paid version. As a user, I don't want to buy an app that then asks for more money. Either give me the real price for the full experience upfront or give me the app free and let me choose if I want more.

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:11 PM

well thank you for taking my post the wrong way and generalise as well as insult my country

You have to be careful when you start down that road. Someone is always there to take it to the next level. "White trash" is something that IS offensive here.

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:17 PM

even I could write an algorithm for copy-paste.. god only knows the reason for Apple not implementing it initially

Then it's clear you don't understand that it's not a simple algorithm.

There are a number of issues involved. Making a space for the data outside of the sandboxed area. Writing all the code for the gestures. Linking it to the various apps with API's, etc.

This is likely hundreds of lines of code, at least. It could be several thousand. The decisions on exactly how to do this could have taken some time as every positive idea could incur a negative one. Apple made it plain as to what they needed to do.

It took MS until ver 3 of Win Mobile to add cut and paste. Other platforms either didn't have it in the beginning, or didn't do it very well, and had to change it later. Apple wanted to avoid that.

digitalclips

03-17-2009, 04:24 PM

...that any time someone has a valid comment that doesn't gush all over Apple, they are called a "troll". I guess if you love everything Apple that makes you a brilliant intellect. :err:

I am happy for apple fans that their precious phone will soon have most of the capabilities of everyone elses phone. Talk about brilliant intellect. Paying more for less just to impress your friends.

What was that stat I saw last week ...? iPhone users account for 60% or more of smart phones accessing the web while the Blackberry users didn't reach 1%. I'd say iPhone users are too busy to worry about impressing their friends :)

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 04:24 PM

GQB

03-17-2009, 04:26 PM

I don't think they should be restricting this to paid apps. It seems like it would be an even better feature for free apps. Instead of developers releasing a free and a paid version, they could just release the free version and use this new system to add the levels/features that are present in the paid version. As a user, I don't want to buy an app that then asks for more money. Either give me the real price for the full experience upfront or give me the app free and let me choose if I want more.

So charge a buck for it. Unless, of course, your business model is "First one's free, kid."

Apple has just pulled off a coup here...
At exactly the time that newspapers are boarding up shop, Apple comes out with a model that lets them charge for a subscription to content (and that's not the same as offering subscriptions to a web-based newspaper.)
I can even envision a model for actual reporters (remember them, as opposed to blog-bloviators?) who could syndicate their reporting using this model.

I think that, (not copy/paste) is why apple is up over 4 today.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 04:28 PM

You have to be careful when you start down that road. Someone is always there to take it to the next level. "White trash" is something that IS offensive here.

that is why I put it in quotation marks.. it's not anything coming from me myself.. but in retrospect you are right.. the term should be used carefully

GQB

03-17-2009, 04:30 PM

even I could write an algorithm for copy-paste.. god only knows the reason for Apple not implementing it initially

Again, you miss the point. A reasonably smart monkey can write code once the design is done. Coding is easy.
Designing the method, interface, experience, and security is HARD.
And the security piece is particularly tricky because you don't do that at the app level... that has to be in sync with the security kernel of the OS. Anything higher than that is hacker heaven.
Security is not an issue for a Nokia 'smartphone' running craplets.
For business-level apps, its a BIG deal.

maxintosh

03-17-2009, 04:31 PM

not really, I think it's great that it has gained Apple additional popularity in the US though.. however, in sweden, the iPhone is associated with "white trash" (no other Apple product is)

(I really hope noone takes offence by that :) )

Huh... isn't pretty much EVERYONE in Sweden "white trash?" I mean, it's about as white a country as you can get...

CEToons

03-17-2009, 04:32 PM

I can't tell if there is just an OS upgrade expected this summer, or if we should also expect a new phone (longer battery, more memory, etc).

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:35 PM

Hellooooo... RED... Jim Jannard... are you listening? :p

Jannard doesn't listen to anyone.

iVlad

03-17-2009, 04:37 PM

Huh... isn't pretty much EVERYONE in Sweden "white trash?" I mean, it's about as white a country as you can get...

Oh Snap.LOL let's not fight =) Apple wants us to love each other.....[correction: love iPhone]

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:37 PM

Huh... isn't pretty much EVERYONE in Sweden "white trash?" I mean, it's about as white a country as you can get...

I already posted about continuing this. Please don't.

White trash doesn't simply mean that someone is white. Look it up.

iVlad

03-17-2009, 04:39 PM

I mean what other company do such updates to a phone. Even though some people see it as not features, but apple does this best. Takes something that doesn't work property and perfect it.
I tried all these features on Blackberry and WM and Nokia and they always have some issues. Some freeze some loose stuff. Apple didn't want that to happen.

Amorph

03-17-2009, 04:39 PM

I'm glad they haven't implemented video or upgraded the camera, actually.

Until they figure out why the camera they have devours the battery they'd be stuck to about 45 seconds of video.

Even my Nikon doesn't chew batteries like the iPhone camera does.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 04:41 PM

Then it's clear you don't understand that it's not a simple algorithm.

There are a number of issues involved. Making a space for the data outside of the sandboxed area. Writing all the code for the gestures. Linking it to the various apps with API's, etc.

This is likely hundreds of lines of code, at least. It could be several thousand. The decisions on exactly how to do this could have taken some time as every positive idea could incur a negative one. Apple made it plain as to what they needed to do.

It took MS until ver 3 of Win Mobile to add cut and paste. Other platforms either didn't have it in the beginning, or didn't do it very well, and had to change it later. Apple wanted to avoid that.

OK, you might be right.. I can't honestly say that I am aware of the exact structure of how the OS.. but the text should be low-level so that it is the same for any app (the font would then be higher level). the copy would just store the data in the RAM and the past would re-enact the creation of it.. with images and such it would just copy the file the the RAM and then re-enact a insertion of a image in the current document etc. with iPhones already limited OS, there aren't many different variations.

however the structure of the OS perhaps prohibits such easy coherency between applications. wich I find very surprising since the iPhone OS is based on Mac OS X wich is based on UNIX wich has the philosophy of keeping applications consistant and structurally cohérent with other applications

maxintosh

03-17-2009, 04:46 PM

I already posted about continuing this. Please don't.

White trash doesn't simply mean that someone is white. Look it up.

Thanks, I know. I was just pointing out it was silly to say "white trash" in a country full of, well, white people. That phrase is pretty specific to America's unique racial history and is difficult for a foreigner to command successfully (or non-offensively, if that's possible).

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 04:48 PM

Again, you miss the point. A reasonably smart monkey can write code once the design is done. Coding is easy.
Designing the method, interface, experience, and security is HARD.
And the security piece is particularly tricky because you don't do that at the app level... that has to be in sync with the security kernel of the OS. Anything higher than that is hacker heaven.
Security is not an issue for a Nokia 'smartphone' running craplets.
For business-level apps, its a BIG deal.

I would agree on that logic if I hadn't seen proof of Apples great recouses. but yes, that is a probable reason, but not an excuse

ericvet8b

03-17-2009, 04:49 PM

I'm going to have to side with Apple on this one. I think that the need for running apps simultaneously on a phone is overblown.

Other than say listening to music whilst you do another task there really doesn't seem to be any reason why a lot of apps need to be running.

In fact I hope that Apple takes this push notification feature and brings it to desktop/laptop applications. When I look at my Activity Monitor I see these "agents"
running for apps I barely use and they sit there and consume CPU cycles and RAM.

Spotlight isn't just a searching mechanism it also works in conjuction with the filesystem to keep apps up data about changes. I don't need these little agents watching constantly when they can simply contact the filestystem for a log of all changes upon launch.

I have to say I completely agree with that... People!! Are we not going a bit too far????:embarrass
Why does it seem so important to some of you to be able to run an app, while you are using another one (using CPU, RAM, ......).....???? When you can just close that one, open the new one, which takes 2 seconds and that is it..... Is this not going to make the phone potentially slower?? (unless the iphone hardware is so powerful it won't take any notice of this increased demand.... I don't know about these technical things, so it may be my lack of knowledge....:embarrass). Is it not going to drain the battery even faster???
And my last say is...... the only useful thing I could see for this multitasking feature is something quite annoying.....Example: you are using an app, Safari, writing an email or whatever... and suddenly receive a text.... you click view it.... and then what you were doing is gone and then you have to go back and open the previous one again!!! GRRRRRRR :lol::lol::lol: So yes and no..... I want multitasking if I can go back straight away to my previous app, in that example, or similar situation, but not in all of them...... (if that makes sense.... hahahaa I can see all your confused faces.... haha :D)

melgross

03-17-2009, 04:59 PM

OK, you might be right.. I can't honestly say that I am aware of the exact structure of how the OS is structured.. but the text should be low-level so that it is the same for any app (the font would then be higher level). the copy would just store the data in the RAM and the past would re-enact the creation of it.. with images and such it would just copy the file the the RAM and then re-enact a insertion of a image in the current document etc. with iPhones already limited OS, there aren't many different variations.

however the structure of the OS perhaps prohibits such easy coherency between applications. wich I find very surprising since the iPhone OS is based on Mac OS X wich is based on UNIX wich has the philosophy of keeping applications consistant and structurally cohérent with other applications

There is security involved, so everything that's done must pass through that as well. It also can't be high level, because that's too easy to screw with. It has to be done so it doesn't break anything else. Even the gestures were agonized over, and may need modification.

dapple

03-17-2009, 05:00 PM

On push notifications vs. apps running in the background, it should be clear that the state of battery technology is not yet advanced enough to sufficiently allow for the latter.

melgross

03-17-2009, 05:00 PM

Why- did Apple think MobileMe would take the world by storm and it hasn't? ;)

I don't know what Apple thought. Do you?

arteckx

03-17-2009, 05:03 PM

So charge a buck for it. Unless, of course, your business model is "First one's free, kid."

The desired business model is shareware. Apple is known for ease of use and elegance. Having to uninstall the free version and install the paid version is not elegant for the user when it now could be done in the app. Apple just implemented everything necessary to make it possible, but is killing the possibility by disabling it in free apps.

It's not that there's no work around. It's doing all the work necessary, but not taking advantage of it. It's kind of like building a Trojan Horse and forgetting to get inside before delivering it.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 05:03 PM

I have to say I completely agree with that... People!! Are we not going a bit too far????:embarrass
Why does it seem so important to some of you to be able to run an app, while you are using another one (using CPU, RAM, ......).....???? When you can just close that one, open the new one, which takes 2 seconds and that is it..... Is this not going to make the phone potentially slower?? (unless the iphone hardware is so powerful it won't take any notice of this increased demand.... I don't know about these technical things, so it may be my lack of knowledge....:embarrass). Is it not going to drain the battery even faster???
And my last say is...... the only useful thing I could see for this multitasking feature is something quite annoying.....Example: you are using an app, Safari, writing an email or whatever... and suddenly receive a text.... you click view it.... and then what you were doing is gone and then you have to go back and open the previous one again!!! GRRRRRRR :lol::lol::lol: So yes and no..... I want multitasking if I can go back straight away to my previous app, in that example, or similar situation, but not in all of them...... (if that makes sense.... hahahaa I can see all your confused faces.... haha :D)

let us say Im watching a movie, listening to a song or are in a middle of a video game, and I suddenly want to look something up on wikipedia. or read a newly received SMS or whatnow.. I'm not saying you need a gigabyte of RAM so that you can have 30 apps running simultaneously. but having the opportunity to not be forced to interrupt something (or wait for it to finish) to be able to do something else should be something you can ask from a smartphone.. it is supposed to be the high end variation of a cellphone in a very technically advanced society

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 05:06 PM

The desired business model is shareware. Apple is known for ease of use and elegance. Having to uninstall the free version and install the paid version is not elegant for the user when it now could be done in the app. Apple just implemented everything necessary to make it possible, but is killing the possibility by disabling it in free apps.

It's not that there's no work around. It's doing all the work necessary, but not taking advantage of it. It's kind of like building a Trojan Horse and forgetting to get inside before delivering it.

or deliver it but having forgot to put people inside it .. like in monty python and the holy grail :D

chrismaddern

03-17-2009, 05:19 PM

For anyone getting the HTTP/1.1 Service Unavailable issue, you can workaround it using http://www.blogitech.co.uk/2009/get-access-to-the-iphone-30-beta/

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 05:23 PM

There is security involved, so everything that's done must pass through that as well. It also can't be high level, because that's too easy to screw with. It has to be done so it doesn't break anything else. Even the gestures were agonized over, and may need modification.

I guess the reason behind the delay can be that the people designing the structure of the iPhone OS could not come to an agreement. but as a computer science student I definitely understand the complexity of having to have it in direct interference with the kernel security, not being allowed to become much higher level but at the same time having to take in hand every possible scenario of usage with apps (that are higher level)

Virgil-TB2

03-17-2009, 05:24 PM

Thanks, I know. I was just pointing out it was silly to say "white trash" in a country full of, well, white people. That phrase is pretty specific to America's unique racial history and is difficult for a foreigner to command successfully (or non-offensively, if that's possible).I think the first guy (even though Swedish) used it correctly but it seems from further posts that he wasn't aware of how rude it was to use it.

I find that your continued assertion that Sweden is "a country of white people" just shows that you are the ignorant one here, and apparently the one with some kind of racial "issues." I'm not sure what you're getting at here anyway. I'm not from the USA, but I understand what "white trash" is and it wouldn't be a silly (or even inaccurate), reference even if Sweden really was "a country of white people."

You're not in the right here, and the OP apologised for the use of the term even as they used it. Why not just drop it?

Postulant

03-17-2009, 05:30 PM

I don't know what Apple thought. Do you?

They thought I'd appreciate mobileme a lot more than I did dotmac - they were right.

8-)

melgross

03-17-2009, 05:31 PM

I guess the reason behind the delay can be that the people designing the structure of the iPhone OS could not come to an agreement. but as a computer science student I definitely understand the complexity of having to have it in direct interference with the kernel security, not being allowed to become much higher level but at the same time having to take in hand every possible scenario of usage with apps (that are higher level)

You see what we all do here sometimes. We make a quick statement without really thinking it through. Then when we do, we relise that we really do understand the issues. Most things aren't as simple as they seem to be on the surface.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 05:34 PM

You see what we all do here sometimes. We make a quick statement without really thinking it through. Then when we do, we relise that we really do understand the issues. Most things aren't as simple as they seem to be on the surface.

and that is why we have communities on the internet, so that we can learn form each other ;)

melgross

03-17-2009, 05:35 PM

and that is why we have communities on the internet, so that we can learn form each other ;)

That's the idea.

hapalibashi

03-17-2009, 05:36 PM

let us say Im watching a movie, listening to a song or are in a middle of a video game, and I suddenly want to look something up on wikipedia. or read a newly received SMS or whatnow.. I'm not saying you need a gigabyte of RAM so that you can have 30 apps running simultaneously. but having the opportunity to not be forced to interrupt something (or wait for it to finish) to be able to do something else should be something you can ask from a smartphone.. it is supposed to be the high end variation of a cellphone in a very technically advanced society

That's better solved in the application... its not hard for an app to save/restore its state... oh look, mail, google maps, safari, notes, etc already do it!

iName

03-17-2009, 05:42 PM

Boogerman2000

03-17-2009, 05:43 PM

It really IS all about the lens and the CMOS and the lighting and shadow detail. For example, take a high quality image and res it down to 2 MP. In comparison to anything the iPhone can produce the difference is huge.

Point taken:) but I still believe there is room to improve upon the existing camera regardless of wether the images can compare to those taken with stand alone units. I happen to think the pictures taken with the iphone turn out pretty good at times, but the implimitation is lacking. Give us 1 or 2 more mp's so that print-outs appear a little less grainy and add a little more in the way of native functionality. Plenty of great apps to take it from there.

phalanx

03-17-2009, 05:45 PM

What was that stat I saw last week ...? iPhone users account for 60% or more of smart phones accessing the web while the Blackberry users didn't reach 1%. I'd say iPhone users are too busy to worry about impressing their friends :)

I guess brillant people browse the web on a 2 inch screen. Trolls use their phone for phone calls and browse the web on a PC.

No one owns an iPhone and keeps it quiet. Everybody has to hear about it. I wonder why?

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 05:47 PM

That's better solved in the application... its not hard for an app to save/restore its state... oh look, mail, google maps, safari, notes, etc already do it!

I gave specific examples of situations where a save would be "long-winded" (I want to say omständig). it wouldnt be a good design to save a position in a movie and even less in a song. and there are many games that don't use the save game-system but rather the checkpoint-system so that you can start again from the highest level you've reached (this is particularly common in smartphone-games that are often designed to kill smaller portions of time then desktop licence games)

Murphster

03-17-2009, 05:48 PM

I have to say I completely agree with that... People!! Are we not going a bit too far????:embarrass
Why does it seem so important to some of you to be able to run an app, while you are using another one (using CPU, RAM, ......).....???? When you can just close that one, open the new one, which takes 2 seconds and that is it..... Is this not going to make the phone potentially slower?? (unless the iphone hardware is so powerful it won't take any notice of this increased demand.... I don't know about these technical things, so it may be my lack of knowledge....:embarrass). Is it not going to drain the battery even faster???
And my last say is...... the only useful thing I could see for this multitasking feature is something quite annoying.....Example: you are using an app, Safari, writing an email or whatever... and suddenly receive a text.... you click view it.... and then what you were doing is gone and then you have to go back and open the previous one again!!! GRRRRRRR :lol::lol::lol: So yes and no..... I want multitasking if I can go back straight away to my previous app, in that example, or similar situation, but not in all of them...... (if that makes sense.... hahahaa I can see all your confused faces.... haha :D)

Many of the business class Unified Communications apps are required to run in the background, these are apps that connect you to your office phone system for presence, messaging and call alerts etc.. presently iPhone is not supported and that means that there are many businesses out there who will not even consider buying an iPhone.

ianwaddell

03-17-2009, 05:49 PM

"Another key developer feature in the iPhone OS 3.0 beta software is the ability for apps to interface with proprietary hardware accessories manufactured by third-party accessory makers, creating a whole new element of control for iPhone and iPod touch accessory developers as well as a new ecosystem of solutions for customers."

so does the new software mean i might be able to use a bluetooth keyboard with the iphone?

TBell

03-17-2009, 05:49 PM

Perhaps you'd be better served if you provided examples of companies who are offering something more innovative then the iPhone.

not really, I think it's great that it has gained Apple additional popularity in the US though.. however, in sweden, the iPhone is associated with "white trash" (no other Apple product is)

(I really hope noone takes offence by that :) )

Murphster

03-17-2009, 05:54 PM

Ah, there we go again with the "European and Japanes phone users are SOOOOO far ahead of US" nonsense.
What they have is unusable phones with tons of useless features that can't be used.
This is just typical european US-envy. :)

Not nonsense, 100% true. Sorry.

This is has the biggest cause of disagreement on these forums forever probably.

While most of the US posters were proclaiming that the iPhone had broken new ground, was the saviour of the mobile phone, was the greatest device ever etc.. etc.. The rest of the world just said "and?".

All the iPhone really broke new ground on was the fantastic touch interface, that in itself is wonderful and worth buying the phone for. But features? No, nothing new and the iPhone has been nothing more than a crippled version of smartphones that have been out for many years elsewhere.

Nice to see Apple catching up with the rest of the mobile phone world.

It is funny that everyone here said that Apple were changing the rules and would force other manufacturers to follow them. Instead it seems we were right all along and Apple had admitted it got some things wrong. Apple should have paid more attention to the industry that already existed rather than try to re-write the rules.

All good now though, eventually.

Murphster

03-17-2009, 05:56 PM

I read so many people complaining about the lack of background applications! But can one of you give me at least ONE SIMPLE reason, why we need it?
I (and i think many others to) could give you at least one reason for no background app: battery life!

Many of the business class Unified Communications apps are required to run in the background, these are apps that connect you to your office phone system for presence, messaging and call alerts etc.. presently iPhone is not supported and that means that there are many businesses out there who will not even consider buying an iPhone.

TBell

03-17-2009, 05:59 PM

Murphster

03-17-2009, 06:00 PM

What was that stat I saw last week ...? iPhone users account for 60% or more of smart phones accessing the web while the Blackberry users didn't reach 1%. I'd say iPhone users are too busy to worry about impressing their friends :)

Blackberry users are too smart to try and surf the web on a phone, they wait until they are in front of a PC.

Blackberrys are not web browsing devices, they are for email, voice and unified communications. They run many apps (even more than one at a time) that access the web such as location based services and unified communications clients. But they are not really aimed at web use unless it is to quickly check out an address to read the news.

Those stats mean nothing at all.

melgross

03-17-2009, 06:07 PM

I gave specific examples of situations where a save would be "long-winded" (I want to say omständig). it wouldnt be a good design to save a position in a movie and even less in a song. and there are many games that don't use the save game-system but rather the checkpoint-system so that you can start again from the highest level you've reached (this is particularly common in smartphone-games that are often designed to kill smaller portions of time then desktop licence games)

What would be wrong about saving your spot in a movie? We do that all the time at home.

You don't really want to go on the net to look something up WHILE you're watching a move, or Tv show, or music video, do you? I would want to stop it, and resume afterwards.

Why would you want to do something else while playing an action game?

A song in the background, yes, I suppose.

Boogerman2000

03-17-2009, 06:14 PM

[QUOTE=Murphster;1391824]Blackberry users are too smart to try and surf the web on a phone, they wait until they are in front of a PC.

Many of us on here are former blackberry users. that statement simply has no credibility.

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 06:17 PM

So charge a buck for it. Unless, of course, your business model is "First one's free, kid."

Apple has just pulled off a coup here...
At exactly the time that newspapers are boarding up shop, Apple comes out with a model that lets them charge for a subscription to content (and that's not the same as offering subscriptions to a web-based newspaper.)
I can even envision a model for actual reporters (remember them, as opposed to blog-bloviators?) who could syndicate their reporting using this model.

I think that, (not copy/paste) is why apple is up over 4 today.

You're absolutely right... I hadn't made the connection with newspapers and magazines yet. This would be beautiful for publishers. They should be all over this...

melgross

03-17-2009, 06:18 PM

Not nonsense, 100% true. Sorry.

This is has the biggest cause of disagreement on these forums forever probably.

While most of the US posters were proclaiming that the iPhone had broken new ground, was the saviour of the mobile phone, was the greatest device ever etc.. etc.. The rest of the world just said "and?".

All the iPhone really broke new ground on was the fantastic touch interface, that in itself is wonderful and worth buying the phone for. But features? No, nothing new and the iPhone has been nothing more than a crippled version of smartphones that have been out for many years elsewhere.

Nice to see Apple catching up with the rest of the mobile phone world.

It is funny that everyone here said that Apple were changing the rules and would force other manufacturers to follow them. Instead it seems we were right all along and Apple had admitted it got some things wrong. Apple should have paid more attention to the industry that already existed rather than try to re-write the rules.

All good now though, eventually.

Actually no, you weren't.

All other phone manufacturers are scrambling to catch the iPhone. That's pretty obvious. You should be able to see that fro their newer offerings.

It's the concept of what the iPhone is that's the innovation.

How many other phones offer the experience of the iPhone? Up until now, none.

It's not the number of hard to understand buttons, or level of menu's you have to go through to find a feature you will likely never use that makes a phone sophisticated. It's the overall product. And Apple has it all over the other manufacturers there.

You, and some others criticize Apple for not being willing to add features before they were ready to offer them properly. well, you can see the result on other platforms that have done this. sure, they have had the features, but they suck.

Until the iPhone came out, which other phone could have a complete OS upgrade? None! The best you could hope for was a very minor update fixing a couple of bugs.

Apple is forcing the industry to change this as well. You can thank Apple for not having to buy a new phone every time a desirable new feature is added to the OS.

So Apple is late with some features, but all iPhone users can get those features for free.

Which phone you had ever gave you THAT feature?

I find it amusing that adoption rates of 3G around the world has been really low. Just because people can get it doesn't mean they have. Just because those features were offered doesn't mean they worked well.

GQB

03-17-2009, 06:20 PM

so does the new software mean i might be able to use a bluetooth keyboard with the iphone?

Or simpler yet, a keyboard with a docking connector.

SpamSandwich

03-17-2009, 06:20 PM

Jannard doesn't listen to anyone.

Perhaps... but I have had some conversations with him on DV Info Net... he seemed OK at the time. :D

melgross

03-17-2009, 06:22 PM

Blackberry users are too smart to try and surf the web on a phone, they wait until they are in front of a PC.

Blackberrys are not web browsing devices, they are for email, voice and unified communications. They run many apps (even more than one at a time) that access the web such as location based services and unified communications clients. But they are not really aimed at web use unless it is to quickly check out an address to read the news.

Those stats mean nothing at all.

That's not true either. RIM is desperately trying to capture that market. That's why most of their new phones dropped the easy to type on keyboard. Now, sending e-mails on many newer Blackberry's is difficult. The Storm, for example, has been said to be terrible for e-mail. I've got plenty of reviews of it if you want the links. The same for their other "consumer" phones. RIM no longer knows what they are.

As the iPhone moves into business in a big way, even though Apple wasn't interested in that in the beginning, RIM is trying, not as successfully, to try making it in the consumer market.

sc54321

03-17-2009, 06:23 PM

If the 2nd generation iphone can run all the new announcements today in software version 3, then what hardware can we expect in June?

GQB

03-17-2009, 06:24 PM

hittrj01

03-17-2009, 06:28 PM

And here I was about to ask what people could complain about now, but it seems nobody is ever satisfied! Apple has added nearly every feature all of you have been complaining about over the last two years, and I have no doubt in my mind that a few more will be announced once the new hardware comes out. Was the iPhone missing some feature that it needed to have? Yes, but what everyone forgets is that this is the least mature OS in the business right now, and already by 3.0, it is on par with everyone else for most things, and way ahead of everybody on a lot of things, including the web browsing, ease of use, and media integration. Please stop the complaining, at least for one day, and be happy Apple addressed all of the immediate issues we all had with the OS. I for one think this is a MAJOR upgrade, and not just for the copy and paste and MMS. Peer-to-peer via bluetooth and the push notifications have me even more excited than the other two. Great job Apple, no matter what the eternally ungrateful say!

GQB

03-17-2009, 06:29 PM

You're absolutely right... I hadn't made the connection with newspapers and magazines yet. This would be beautiful for publishers. They should be all over this...

Well, considering that they let Craig's List eat their lunch and STILL haven't figure out how to put their classifieds on line, I wouldn't count on it.
Its very very sad. (not to mention dangerous for the country, but that's another post.)

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 06:30 PM

Perhaps you would agree that Apple 1) knows what it's hardware is capable of, 2) what it's software is capable of, and 3) knows what it's customers are asking for.

Apple responded to the copy and paste issue a while back claiming that it was not high on it's priority list because it had a whole bunch of other features it needed to focus on. Since, Apple has access to the feedback it gets, it knows what changes should take priority. Apple knows if the people complaining about copy and paste are just a handful of users, or are present in significant numbers. If it was a major complaint, Apple would have addressed it earlier.

Apple also has a roadmap detailing the changes it wants to make and when it wants to make them. Changes have to make sense in relation to the whole plan.

there is no doubt that Apple _knows_ what the customers want. but they do not always give it to us. for example, they did not give us decent graphic cards in any computer except the high end desktop model until very recently. and they were probably very aware that it bugged all the iMac users that they almost couldn't play games made in the same century

What would be wrong about saving your spot in a movie? We do that all the time at home.

You don't really want to go on the net to look something up WHILE you're watching a move, or Tv show, or music video, do you? I would want to stop it, and resume afterwards.

Why would you want to do something else while playing an action game?

A song in the background, yes, I suppose.

no, of course you wouldn't continue to play the movie, you would pause it. But you wouldn't have to save the position and then resume from the position ending up with hundres of different saved positions you aren't going to use again

melgross

03-17-2009, 06:32 PM

Perhaps... but I have had some conversations with him on DV Info Net... he seemed OK at the time. :D

He's a bit crazy. He made statements that his new vaporware would keep Canon and Nikon up nights, and that he would steal their market for professional cameras.

Now, the RED was, and is, a good, cheap camera.

But the D-SLR market is very far afield from what he's doing, and what he knows.

When he finally showed the CGI pics of the new cameras, which won't be available until late 2009 (hopefully), or mid 2010, they were monstrosities. No D-SLR pro will use them, except for a limited few in the studio. And those will be who, exactly? $20,000 for a camera that offers nothing better than the IQ of the top Canon or Nikon at 2.5 times the price?

Mid format price range with a far worse IQ.

And ergonomics? None!

Bah!

When I asked him a question about how he thought he would compete with these Canon and Nikon models, be became verbally violent.

The people on his forums are also vastly worse than the average Apple fanboy. They support every comment he makes, as from god. Talk about reality distortion fields!

melgross

03-17-2009, 06:37 PM

no, of course you wouldn't continue to play the movie, you would pause it. But you wouldn't have to save the position and then resume from the position ending up with hundres of different saved positions you aren't going to use again

I don't see the problem. The program would save the last state when it turns off. When you open it again, it resumes where you left off. Why would it need to save "hundreds of different positions...".

I don't see this as being any different as any game which does that very thing, or book.

PookJP

03-17-2009, 06:51 PM

I was really hoping that the announcement of copy/paste and MMS would STOP people from complaining about these features not existing.

(features that I personally haven't missed one bit in two years of use)

Well said. There's a whole class of people who move from thing to complain about to thing to complain about. The copy/paste hoards will certainly find another cause now.

While found it curious Copy/Paste wasn't included from day 1, I also found it irrelevant. It literally hasn't come up in the 1.5 years of ownership that I've wanted to copy/paste.

MMS sounds kind of neat, actually. It's one step more immediate than emailing a photo.

Cbswe

03-17-2009, 07:11 PM

I don't see the problem. The program would save the last state when it turns off. When you open it again, it resumes where you left off. Why would it need to save "hundreds of different positions...".

I don't see this as being any different as any game which does that very thing, or book.

if every app saved it's temporary state when you closed it, you would have the next best thing to actual parallel processing. it would be slower and use the hard drive as temporary state saving space.. but it wouldn't require the iPhone to have more RAM or CPU

djbeta

03-17-2009, 07:29 PM

I don't think they should be restricting this to paid apps. It seems like it would be an even better feature for free apps. Instead of developers releasing a free and a paid version, they could just release the free version and use this new system to add the levels/features that are present in the paid version. As a user, I don't want to buy an app that then asks for more money. Either give me the real price for the full experience upfront or give me the app free and let me choose if I want more.

I MAY disagree here.. I think that it makes sense to only allow paid apps to have this feature because otherwise the store would become overrun with free trial versions of everything. wouldn't that get a little bit annoying..? no more free useful stuff..

i'm torn
:???:

VertiGoGo

03-17-2009, 07:49 PM

Ah, there we go again with the "European and Japanes phone users are SOOOOO far ahead of US" nonsense.
What they have is unusable phones with tons of useless features that can't be used.
This is just typical european US-envy. :)

Having lived in Europe for two years, I'd gladly adopt their mobile model. We're getting screwed in N. America on contracts and billing. My God, the things Canadian carriers are permitted to charge for.

Europe has vastly superior SMS charge policies, interoperability between networks is great, contracts are better for consumers and...when highway robbery roaming charges get ya down, just pop in a local pay as ya go SIM card and gt a local number for people to call you at. So civilized.

And in Japan they can watch live TV on their phones. So, c'mon...the "envy" you speak of is a little misplaced.

Another thing, let's not assume all cultures will use technologies in the same way.

VertiGoGo

03-17-2009, 07:59 PM

Hellooooo... RED... Jim Jannard... are you listening? :p

Helloooooooooo Canon! Make me a sexy consumer iPhone camera attachment!

malax

03-17-2009, 08:30 PM

Personally...I have cursed not having cut and paste almost everyday and have been extremely irritated with Apple for forcing me to come up with ridiculous work-arounds for a so-called feature that has been around since before Windows 3.1.

You're being ironic, right? The only reason Windows has copy and paste as it is today is because Apple designed it the right way back in Mac OS 1.0 (or perhaps for the Lisa, but I've never seen one). Copy and paste wasn't a ubiquitous system-level function until the Mac introduced it.

Also, next time you hit Ctrl-C, Cntl-V, thank Apple. It took a few versions before MS realized that ctrl-insert and whatever the other keystroke they used for paste sucked hard.

lilgto64

03-17-2009, 09:22 PM

Now i could care less about a 'good' built-in camera... The news is about the ability to provide software for devices plugged into the dock connector.
If any of the camera companies are smart, we might now see camera bodies to which you connect the touch/iPhone as a controller/preview.
THEN we'll start seeing some quality... great lenses, zoom, flash etc with the ability to update the software on the controller.
Camera quality on a phone is a dead end because after a certain point, its all about the lenses. We now have that option, if anyone will wake up and do it.

And musicians can start connecting their midi rigs through the dock connector and the iPhone/touch becomes a GREAT performance controller.

Not sure if a later post already said this - but I could easily imagine a snap-on case that incorporates not only a video camera - but also an SD card slot (or micro SD, etc) and an extended battery etc - which would allow you to add 8GB or 16GB or even 32GB for the video storage - and then you could simply pop the card out and stick it into a card reader or USB stick and copy the file directly to PC or Mac with or without iTunes without needing to do a sync. Perhaps even add a separate app to access the files on the SD card to move and share files etc.

evanmixon

03-17-2009, 09:36 PM

the iphone is kinda growing at the rate of a child.... like, idk. its getting older. and smarter. like, idk.

dagamer34

03-17-2009, 09:46 PM

Many of us are simply looking for something a bit better than what is currently offered. How about a 3 or 4 mp upgrade with added functionality? I don't think that's too much to ask for at this point.

Picture quality is NOT about megapixels. In fact, cramming more megapixels into a smaller space increases noise and makes the camera WORSE.

If anything, they should just leave it as it. It's a camera phone, not a DSLR.

And as far as video recording goes... meh. It's a novelty at best, but sending most video over the air would require at least a 3G connection, and people would STILL find a way to complain.

ohruff

03-17-2009, 09:54 PM

anantksundaram

03-17-2009, 09:59 PM

the iphone is kinda growing at the rate of a child....

Meaning what? Don't follow....

anantksundaram

03-17-2009, 10:02 PM

Where is the A2DP and Flash support? ..... Everybody wants this. I am speaking for everybody!!!!!!

Gee, thanks. Just so you are not under the wrong impression, you are not speaking for me. I can speak for myself, and I give a hoot about A2DP or Flash. :lol:

melgross

03-17-2009, 10:24 PM

Right, and how long did it take Apple to realize that we needed a 2 button mouse? The next time your middle finger hits that right click button on your mighty mouse remember where it originated.
It also took 2 years and 2 version of OS before Apple realized that the iPhone needed MMS?
Can we all just move on from this stupid state of the blame game and who came first
It's so tired and pointless.

We had the ability to use a two button mouse for many years before Apple provided one. Anyone could have gone out and purchased a cheap 2 or three button mouse back in the '90's.

Aftermarket mice and trackballs are a very big business.

melgross

03-17-2009, 10:27 PM

Picture quality is NOT about megapixels. In fact, cramming more megapixels into a smaller space increases noise and makes the camera WORSE.

If anything, they should just leave it as it. It's a camera phone, not a DSLR.

And as far as video recording goes... meh. It's a novelty at best, but sending most video over the air would require at least a 3G connection, and people would STILL find a way to complain.

I would like to see 3.2 to 3.5 MP. That's the rez needed to read standard bar codes. That would open up a lot of possibilities.

More than that is a waste for a camera phone at this time. We would need a jump in sensor technology and processing for anything bigger to be of much use without charging too much for the camera. And then we'd need better, and more expensive lenses.

melgross

03-17-2009, 10:30 PM

Where is the A2DP and Flash support? The ipod/iphone is supposed to be this great music/video/web device and can't even support bluetooth A2DP? Flash is everywhere, no flash. How retarded is this?
Seriously, this is ridiculous and has been going on way too long. If I was Steve Jobs I would be very embarrassed about this. It's bad enough that you don't allow this phone to come unlocked and jailbroken for all the money spent on this device. At least implement something as simple as A2DP and flash video. Everybody wants this. I am speaking for everybody!!!!!!

Apparently, from todays presentation, A2DP is here with the 3.0 OS.

Flash is something that Adobe has to get right. That's something you should complain about on an Adobe forum.

Apple has standards for performance. As Jobs said way back, when the software gives the desktop experience without breaking the back of the phone, we will get it.

Now go and bother Adobe.

Murphster

03-17-2009, 10:36 PM

That's not true either. RIM is desperately trying to capture that market. That's why most of their new phones dropped the easy to type on keyboard. Now, sending e-mails on many newer Blackberry's is difficult. The Storm, for example, has been said to be terrible for e-mail. I've got plenty of reviews of it if you want the links. The same for their other "consumer" phones. RIM no longer knows what they are.

As the iPhone moves into business in a big way, even though Apple wasn't interested in that in the beginning, RIM is trying, not as successfully, to try making it in the consumer market.

What I said is 100% true, that does not make you wrong, just means that you are answering a different question!

Up to now the users of Blackberry's have mostly been business users, the Blackberry while having a browser has never been marketed or thought of as a browsing device, the screen is too small for one.

But now Blackberry is trying to capitlise on the iPhone's success and is venturing more into the consumer area with products like the Storm. But they are not dropping their other models, the curve is still there, the Bold is still there. These are business devices and will continue to be the most sold models (companies tend to buy these phones not the users).

As consumer take up of the Storm and future models grows then yes Blackberry web browsing will also grow.

But that does not make what I said wrong. Just about everyone I know has a Blackberry and apart from the odd times nobody uses it as a browsing machine (they have netbooks for that). My comment was that there is nothing at all in the stats that say 60% of smartphone browsing is from Iphones simply because the iPhone is a device that it is possible to browse the web on (due to the screen size) and the people who buy it are buying it with web surfing in mind. Not like the majority of Blackberry users who still are, and will always be business users.

melgross

03-17-2009, 11:04 PM

What I said is 100% true, that does not make you wrong, just means that you are answering a different question!

Up to now the users of Blackberry's have mostly been business users, the Blackberry while having a browser has never been marketed or thought of as a browsing device, the screen is too small for one.

But now Blackberry is trying to capitlise on the iPhone's success and is venturing more into the consumer area with products like the Storm. But they are not dropping their other models, the curve is still there, the Bold is still there. These are business devices and will continue to be the most sold models (companies tend to buy these phones not the users).

As consumer take up of the Storm and future models grows then yes Blackberry web browsing will also grow.

But that does not make what I said wrong. Just about everyone I know has a Blackberry and apart from the odd times nobody uses it as a browsing machine (they have netbooks for that). My comment was that there is nothing at all in the stats that say 60% of smartphone browsing is from Iphones simply because the iPhone is a device that it is possible to browse the web on (due to the screen size) and the people who buy it are buying it with web surfing in mind. Not like the majority of Blackberry users who still are, and will always be business users.

This was your post:
Blackberry users are too smart to try and surf the web on a phone, they wait until they are in front of a PC.

Blackberrys are not web browsing devices, they are for email, voice and unified communications. They run many apps (even more than one at a time) that access the web such as location based services and unified communications clients. But they are not really aimed at web use unless it is to quickly check out an address to read the news.

Those stats mean nothing at all.

I responded directly to that. It's not true. First of all, browsing on the internet was, and is, such a lousy experience for the Blackberry users that can do it, that most don't bother once they've tried it.

But RIM knows very well that it's one of the most important business applications around right now, approaching e-mail. They also know that Apple, without even trying, broke into the business world with ver 1 of their OS, and more so with ver 2. They see that with Apple's number 1 rating from business users, where the Blackberry was rated considerably lower, they run the risk of their customers moving to the iPhone.

To balance that risk, they are trying to copy the iPhone as much as possible, while giving it a bit of a twist, in order to move into the consumer market. They can only grow so much being tied to business.

But Blackberry users were able to browse, if you would be so kind as to use that word for it, the internet for quite a while before the iPhone came out.

The stats matter, because organizations that care about who is seeing them will look to the iPhone, as they are doing, when they design their services. That's why it's important.

The Storm is bad because it's very difficult to type on. The click screen takes a lot of pressure. I've tried it. You have to depress the entire screen, which is sealed around the edge. After a few words, your finger becomes tired. It's almost impossible to type two thumb style.

And with most BB's going to a narrow vertical format, the keyboards are now small, and no better than anyone else's, which was not true before.

If they're not careful, they won't get much consumer acceptance, and will lose the business crowd as well.

Murphster

03-18-2009, 01:44 AM

This was your post:

I responded directly to that. It's not true. First of all, browsing on the internet was, and is, such a lousy experience for the Blackberry users that can do it, that most don't bother once they've tried it.

Okay, I can see where you are coming from.

When I said Blackberry users are too smart to browse the web on a phone I didn't mean that anyone who uses an IPhone is not smart, I meant exactly what you said in that Blackberry users are smart enough not too as the experience is not brilliant. Of course browsing on an iPhone is better. It is not perfect (I have an iPod Touch) but it better than a Blackberry.

However I still think that there is much less need for browsing from a Blackberry. I cannot imagine what I would bother for, I browse at my desk and email when I am out of the office (which is most of the time) but very, very rarely ever have the need during my day to browse the web on my phone. I am too busy.

Business users and home users do use their phones for every different reasons, and will always continue to do so. One day there will be a device that meets the best of both worlds, but it is not yet the iPhone nor the Blackberry. The Blackberry have still got work to do to make a phone as useful for playtime as it does for worktime, but to be honest the iPhone is still a long way from being anywhere near as good as the Blackberry for worktime and is even further away from becoming an attractive option for corporate buyers.

Half the problem is that the iPhone is just too good of a playtime phone, trust me business prefer phones that are not so fun. I think that Apple could do worse than release an iPhone business model, with an email system as good and as secure as RIM's and maybe even with proper keys!! and tone down the fun side of it.

But still, without the ability to run apps in the background, iPhone is nowhere yet. To be honest I don't think it ever will be, Apple just don't seem interested in the corporate world for their computers and as such will find it difficult to get their phones on peoples desks too. I used to have grand ideas of Apple taking on the corporate world but that dream is almost dead now, Apple are becoming more and more of a toy company everyday.

parky

03-18-2009, 02:47 AM

even I could write an algorithm for copy-paste.. god only knows the reason for Apple not implementing it initially

Just go away and don't bother posting here again.
You are clearly just trying to wind people up with your idiotic posts.
If you don't like the iPhone then why waste your time trying to put it down all the time.
Could it be jealousy? There must be some emotion that is making you waste so much of your time posting comments about a product that you don't lie or want. How do you explain your posts?

melgross

03-18-2009, 02:55 AM

Okay, I can see where you are coming from.

When I said Blackberry users are too smart to browse the web on a phone I didn't mean that anyone who uses an IPhone is not smart, I meant exactly what you said in that Blackberry users are smart enough not too as the experience is not brilliant. Of course browsing on an iPhone is better. It is not perfect (I have an iPod Touch) but it better than a Blackberry.

However I still think that there is much less need for browsing from a Blackberry. I cannot imagine what I would bother for, I browse at my desk and email when I am out of the office (which is most of the time) but very, very rarely ever have the need during my day to browse the web on my phone. I am too busy.

Business users and home users do use their phones for every different reasons, and will always continue to do so. One day there will be a device that meets the best of both worlds, but it is not yet the iPhone nor the Blackberry. The Blackberry have still got work to do to make a phone as useful for playtime as it does for worktime, but to be honest the iPhone is still a long way from being anywhere near as good as the Blackberry for worktime and is even further away from becoming an attractive option for corporate buyers.

Half the problem is that the iPhone is just too good of a playtime phone, trust me business prefer phones that are not so fun. I think that Apple could do worse than release an iPhone business model, with an email system as good and as secure as RIM's and maybe even with proper keys!! and tone down the fun side of it.

But still, without the ability to run apps in the background, iPhone is nowhere yet. To be honest I don't think it ever will be, Apple just don't seem interested in the corporate world for their computers and as such will find it difficult to get their phones on peoples desks too. I used to have grand ideas of Apple taking on the corporate world but that dream is almost dead now, Apple are becoming more and more of a toy company everyday.

Well, at least we seem to understand each other.;)

I have to say though, that there are a lot of business apps that use the internet. It's not the same as browsing, but internet use is becoming important for business users. I'm not even talking about the generic web apps. Apps that sit on the phone and go through the internet for their services are on the iPhone in ever larger numbers, and a number of them are from big companies.

RIM will have to deal with this too.

melgross

03-18-2009, 02:56 AM

Murphster

03-18-2009, 04:13 AM

Well, at least we seem to understand each other.;)

I have to say though, that there are a lot of business apps that use the internet. It's not the same as browsing, but internet use is becoming important for business users. I'm not even talking about the generic web apps. Apps that sit on the phone and go through the internet for their services are on the iPhone in ever larger numbers, and a number of them are from big companies.

RIM will have to deal with this too.

But they do quite nicely, I work with a business class unified communications client that works on Blackberry's, Winmob and Symbian that works brilliantly, it just cannot work on the iPhone and the developers are nowhere near even trying until Apple sort out their shit.

I did actually posts a response to the "60% of smartphone web traffic is iPhone" post that said a very similar thing to you. Web Browsing traffic is not the best measure, the browser is no longer the king of the net. I use plenty of web services on my BB without touching a browser. And I know the iPhone is the same, but without background apps its appeal is much more limited.

I know there have been lots of comments about why you would need to be in two apps at the same time but this is not about that, this is about apps running quietly in the background, connected to the web and doing stuff without your input.

Cbswe

03-18-2009, 05:12 AM

Just go away and don't bother posting here again.
You are clearly just trying to wind people up with your idiotic posts.
If you don't like the iPhone then why waste your time trying to put it down all the time.
Could it be jealousy? There must be some emotion that is making you waste so much of your time posting comments about a product that you don't lie or want. How do you explain your posts?

don't be rude. your post is a direct insult to me. _that_ is the kind of posts that does not belong in any kind of remotely serious community.
what is a community? is it a place where everyone only says "I like this" and "I agree"? I'd like to think of it as a place for sharing views, debating and even learning. don't take the discussion down to some primitive flaming-at-each-other-nonsense. please read my posts more carefully if you think I'm a jerk and try to reconsider, because I am not.

vinea

03-18-2009, 06:40 AM

I cannot imagine what I would bother for, I browse at my desk and email when I am out of the office (which is most of the time) but very, very rarely ever have the need during my day to browse the web on my phone. I am too busy.

Google. I'v been in meetings where being able to google has been an advantage.

Half the problem is that the iPhone is just too good of a playtime phone, trust me business prefer phones that are not so fun. I think that Apple could do worse than release an iPhone business model, with an email system as good and as secure as RIM's and maybe even with proper keys!! and tone down the fun side of it.

Yes, because folks with blackberries don't travel and there are no games for the blackberry. What?

http://www.bplay.com/

But still, without the ability to run apps in the background, iPhone is nowhere yet. To be honest I don't think it ever will be, Apple just don't seem interested in the corporate world for their computers and as such will find it difficult to get their phones on peoples desks too.

Yes, they don't care so much that they implemented ActiveSync, mentioned that JD Powers lists Apple tops for business user satisfaction for phones and had Oracle on stage with a relatively lame business status and CRM demo.

Business may not be it's core focus but they do care.

I used to have grand ideas of Apple taking on the corporate world but that dream is almost dead now, Apple are becoming more and more of a toy company everyday.

Yah, right. iPhones are just toys. :rolleyes:

vinea

03-18-2009, 06:56 AM

I use plenty of web services on my BB without touching a browser. And I know the iPhone is the same, but without background apps its appeal is much more limited.

I know there have been lots of comments about why you would need to be in two apps at the same time but this is not about that, this is about apps running quietly in the background, connected to the web and doing stuff without your input.

Push notifications solve some of these cases and the processing happens on your server, not your small handheld device. The iPhone is used as a presentation of that new data which does require user input.

There are several categories that push does not solve. Things like streaming radio or automatic downloads of new content. For those, entering the app is still required although you will get an indicator on the app that new content is available.

But for many cases, push is sufficient.

realmike15

03-18-2009, 07:30 AM

title should read "Apple Gets It's Shit Together With iPhone 3.0"

truth be told, i hope we ALL know Apple's only reason for holding off on these updates like: MMS, Widescreen Keyboard, Copy/Paste.... is because they needed features to add to 3.0. they need a selling point for people to upgrade. the whole thing about them having issues to resolve before they could release it was total bs, it's all about marketing.

however, i'm letting go of my gripes. it's coming out, so there's nothing to bitch about anymore, except the fact that it should have never taken this long. you wait and see though, we won't see a video camera until 4.0... meanwhile my Motorola Razer was recording video over 3 years ago.

here's to hoping gets a little speedier with feature updates, instead of holding off as a marketing gimmick for the next generations. i'll just wait and see.

side note: let's see accidental coverage too

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 08:44 AM

hiimamac

03-18-2009, 09:25 AM

that is why I put it in quotation marks.. it's not anything coming from me myself.. but in retrospect you are right.. the term should be used carefully

So we, being Apple certified, get paid to maintain our equipment. That's right if my MacBook pro fails, I can log onto gsx get the part and someone at work will fix it while Apple pays us to do so. That being said, we got an email saying enjo, iPhone beta online only to read at the end " don't install unless you're a iPhone developer". What?!?! Will my phone explode if I install? Have a grew idea fir get. Should i pay $99 fir a kit? What will happen if I install. Will I brick my phone. What would you do. LOL.

hiimamac

03-18-2009, 09:30 AM

Great idea for a game. Great idea for a game. Silly iPhone virtual keyboard. LOL

Steven R Wilson

03-18-2009, 09:48 AM

I know there have been lots of comments about why you would need to be in two apps at the same time but this is not about that, this is about apps running quietly in the background, connected to the web and doing stuff without your input.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/preview-iphone-os/

On the keynote at about 22 minute mark they discuss background processes.

"Why dont you just do background processes, it's easier to do background processes. The answer is it's bad for the customer."

They did a test with an instant messaging process in background, and it dropped the battery life by 80% faster even without incoming messages. Different processes might drain battery at different rates, but all will drain more battery. All will eat up CPU cycles. All will suck up available RAM.

There's simply no such thing as a background process running on a severely resource constrained device (battery, limited cpu and ram) running "quietly in the background."

Steven R Wilson

03-18-2009, 10:09 AM

truth be told, i hope we ALL know Apple's only reason for holding off on these updates like: MMS, Widescreen Keyboard, Copy/Paste.... is because they needed features to add to 3.0. they need a selling point for people to upgrade. the whole thing about them having issues to resolve before they could release it was total bs, it's all about marketing.

however, i'm letting go of my gripes. it's coming out, so there's nothing to bitch about anymore, except the fact that it should have never taken this long. you wait and see though, we won't see a video camera until 4.0... meanwhile my Motorola Razer was recording video over 3 years ago.

here's to hoping gets a little speedier with feature updates, instead of holding off as a marketing gimmick for the next generations. i'll just wait and see.

side note: let's see accidental coverage too

You are aware that the 3.0 software will run on the first generation iPhone? Only a few features won't work due to hardware differences between the original and 3G versions (specifically stereo bluetooth and MMS were mentioned).

So if you have the 3G version (which far more people have than the original), you won't need to buy new hardware to use them. This is a software update, and it will be free to all iPhone users.

Regarding "speedier with feature updates, instead of holding off as a marketing gimmick" Apple has never been about stuffing as many features into their products as possible for marketing bubble feature lists, they are about making products work well and be fun to use. It takes longer to develop features that work well and are fun to use than it takes to stuff them in there so they can be printed on the outside of a box.

I totally agree with you on accidental coverage, tho I've been very careful with my original model and it has never been dropped and is still in good condition.

melgross

03-18-2009, 12:09 PM

But they do quite nicely, I work with a business class unified communications client that works on Blackberry's, Winmob and Symbian that works brilliantly, it just cannot work on the iPhone and the developers are nowhere near even trying until Apple sort out their shit.

I did actually posts a response to the "60% of smartphone web traffic is iPhone" post that said a very similar thing to you. Web Browsing traffic is not the best measure, the browser is no longer the king of the net. I use plenty of web services on my BB without touching a browser. And I know the iPhone is the same, but without background apps its appeal is much more limited.

I know there have been lots of comments about why you would need to be in two apps at the same time but this is not about that, this is about apps running quietly in the background, connected to the web and doing stuff without your input.

I understand the background argument. You can't have a proper security program work if it has to be called. There are other requirements for this in business as well.

I feel that once Apple thinks it is advisable to do so, they will allow more background activity. They have their priorities. What IS interesting is that despite the limitations, the iPhone has already made big inroads into business, and will continue to do so.

But I would disagree about the browser. It is still king, and will remain so.

melgross

03-18-2009, 12:20 PM

x2... not a big shock considering the first 2 year contracts are due in the near future and retainment is probably one of their top 5 priorities if not #1.

I really don't think that's meaningful.

It seems that Apple is coming out with an updated, or new model every year, like all other phone manufacturers try to do, or for that matter, car companies, and just about all other industries.

A new OS upgrade naturally follows.

This is normal. To say they held back on features is pointless. They add them when they can get them working properly. Once a year upgrades to an OS is pretty damn good.

How often do the other companies do this? Not very often! MS is totally screwed up. Look and see where their updates and upgrades have been going.

The same for Palm. The WEB OS is the first new OS for them in almost ten years. The Palm OS has hardly been upgraded in all the years intervening.

What about Symbian? Still the primitive OS it's always been, even though they've been trying to cram more features in. It's seen as being pretty creaky.

Who else? nothing much until Android. but that still new. No one really knows how that's going to work out.

And name another company that offers FREE major upgrades to its current customers with their old phones. No? That's because unlike all others so far, they make you buy a new phone to get the newer OS upgrade, even if it's half assed like Win Mobile 6.5.

Apple is forcing them to change that as well.

Complain about something real, because that's not it.

TenoBell

03-18-2009, 12:36 PM

That's essentially the same reaction in the film/video world to anyone who dares to challenge RED's outrageous claims.

He's a bit crazy. He made statements that his new vaporware would keep Canon and Nikon up nights, and that he would steal their market for professional cameras.

When I asked him a question about how he thought he would compete with these Canon and Nikon models, be became verbally violent.

The people on his forums are also vastly worse than the average Apple fanboy. They support every comment he makes, as from god. Talk about reality distortion fields!

melgross

03-18-2009, 01:00 PM

That's essentially the same reaction in the film/video world to anyone who dares to challenge RED's outrageous claims.

It's sad really.

I was wondering if you would comment.

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 01:05 PM

I really don't think that's meaningful.

It seems that Apple is coming out with an updated, or new model every year, like all other phone manufacturers try to do, or for that matter, car companies, and just about all other industries.

A new OS upgrade naturally follows.

This is normal. To say they held back on features is pointless. They add them when they can get them working properly. Once a year upgrades to an OS is pretty damn good.

How often do the other companies do this? Not very often! MS is totally screwed up. Look and see where their updates and upgrades have been going.

The same for Palm. The WEB OS is the first new OS for them in almost ten years. The Palm OS has hardly been upgraded in all the years intervening.

What about Symbian? Still the primitive OS it's always been, even though they've been trying to cram more features in. It's seen as being pretty creaky.

Who else? nothing much until Android. but that still new. No one really knows how that's going to work out.

And name another company that offers FREE major upgrades to its current customers with their old phones. No? That's because unlike all others so far, they make you buy a new phone to get the newer OS upgrade, even if it's half assed like Win Mobile 6.5.

Apple is forcing them to change that as well.

Complain about something real, because that's not it.

Well I will file it away under 'big coincedence' for now... but i won't rule it out completely. ;) FWIW other phones don't really have a need to push big updates.. the phones I've used in the past simply had all of these simple things from the start and they worked. (minus copy paste which is still something that I don't believe was a deal breaker).

Actually my Nokia and Samsung phones didn't need a reboot every couple days to keep funtioning either.. my Iphone and Iphone 3G both seemed to be plauged by little annoying bugs. (Like when I goto answer a call and the call dissapears from the screen but it keeps ringing over and over again with no way to answer unitl I power the device off...I love that one)

melgross

03-18-2009, 01:38 PM

Well I will file it away under 'big coincedence' for now... but i won't rule it out completely. ;) FWIW other phones don't really have a need to push big updates.. the phones I've used in the past simply had all of these simple things from the start and they worked. (minus copy paste which is still something that I don't believe was a deal breaker).

Actually my Nokia and Samsung phones didn't need a reboot every couple days to keep funtioning either.. my Iphone and Iphone 3G both seemed to be plauged by little annoying bugs. (Like when I goto answer a call and the call dissapears from the screen but it keeps ringing over and over again with no way to answer unitl I power the device off...I love that one)

Saying that you didn't NEED to buy a new phone because you had everything you wanted is a bit unrelated to your argument now.

Older phones didn't do much to begin with, and that goes for the old smartphones. If you wanted any new features, you needed to buy a new phone. Period!

As Apple is very late to the game, its only natural that they are going to take a while to add some very important, but difficult features to implement, as all other companies did, but much earlier.

It's easy to forget the complaints people had about those others before they had the features implemented. It took MS and Palm almost four years to come out with cut and paste, and Nokia took almost as long.

Palm is using their experience in the new phone, and we'll see how good it really is. Google is using the experience from the Linux phone OS that's been around for a while as well. We'll see how that does.

Apple is coming out with it two years after the phone is out, which is actually a pretty good record when compared to how the rest of the industry handled it.

All my Palmphones needed regular reboots. They crashed every few days as well. Windows phones also need constant rebooting. Sometimes several times a day if a fair amount of programs are present. They crash with regularity.

Nokia's Symbian OS is old, and not very good. It's been pushed beyond its intended limits, and Nokia knows it's on the way out, which is why they bought it, and released it as open software, hoping desperately, that others will take it up and develop it further. But the development tools are so bad, and they are constantly being criticized over that, that it doesn't seem likely. Companies are abandoning it all over, maybe in favor of Android. Marketshare is also sharply down, and moving down quickly.

I wonder why?

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 01:44 PM

Saying that you didn't NEED to buy a new phone because you had everything you wanted is a bit unrelated to your argument now.

Older phones didn't do much to begin with, and that goes for the old smartphones. If you wanted any new features, you needed to buy a new phone. Period!

As Apple is very late to the game, its only natural that they are going to take a while to add some very important, but difficult features to implement, as all other companies did, but much earlier.

It's easy to forget the complaints people had about those others before they had the features implemented. It took MS and Palm almost four years to come out with cut and paste, and Nokia took almost as long.

Palm is using their experience in the new phone, and we'll see how good it really is. Google is using the experience from the Linux phone OS that's been around for a while as well. We'll see how that does.

Apple is coming out with it two years after the phone is out, which is actually a pretty good record when compared to how the rest of the industry handled it.

All my Palmphones needed regular reboots. They crashed every few days as well. Windows phones also need constant rebooting. Sometimes several times a day if a fair amount of programs are present. They crash with regularity.

Nokia's Symbian OS is old, and not very good. It's been pushed beyond its intended limits, and Nokia knows it's on the way out, which is why they bought it, and released it as open software, hoping desperately, that others will take it up and develop it further. But the development tools are so bad, and they are constantly being criticized over that, that it doesn't seem likely. Companies are abandoning it all over, maybe in favor of Android. Marketshare is also sharply down, and moving down quickly.

I wonder why?

Very true and great points ... I upgrade everything in cycle.. just riding the 2 year contract bubble until I see something I want.. in basic funtionality I never had a problem (like I said all of my previous phones contained the basics, phone, contact manager, MMS,SMS and basic email support) is it too much to expect of a 'better' phone to have the basics? For me it all comes down to basics...the Iphone does have a massive list of things over my old phones but that doesn't take away from the frustration I have with it missing features. Then when they do add the features I find out they are severely crippled... (Someone over at Apple actually thinks AT&T has really good 3G coverage apparently..haha)

TenoBell

03-18-2009, 01:55 PM

I'm suspicious of claims like this. I haven't seen a computing device that did not need reboots. Even people who claim they've run OS X for six months without a reboot. I tell them it would run much better if you'd done a reboot in that time.

Actually my Nokia and Samsung phones didn't need a reboot every couple days to keep funtioning either..

melgross

03-18-2009, 02:02 PM

Very true and great points ... I upgrade everything in cycle.. just riding the 2 year contract bubble until I see something I want.. in basic funtionality I never had a problem (like I said all of my previous phones contained the basics, phone, contact manager, MMS,SMS and basic email support) is it too much to expect of a 'better' phone to have the basics? For me it all comes down to basics...the Iphone does have a massive list of things over my old phones but that doesn't take away from the frustration I have with it missing features. Then when they do add the features I find out they are severely crippled... (Someone over at Apple actually thinks AT&T has really good 3G coverage apparently..haha)

To take things backward, you can't hold Apple to task for the carrier's problems. That was a complex subject, and going with GSM allowed Apple to easily get into markets that would have been difficult, and more expensive, to penetrate otherwise.

Which brings up Nokia again. You do know that they discontinued all phones for the Japanese market because they couldn't compete, and they announced they were stopping all development for that market? The also announced another group of firings around the world, 1,700 more. This includes R&D people and development people. Not a good sign.

Which features are "severely crippled". Or are you just making that statement because it sounds good in a generic way?

Just consider that when Apple GIVES AWAY this new OS 3.0 upgrade, all older phones, including the first gen discontinued phone will be able to use it, other than for what needs newer hardware. 90% of the features will work (MMS won't).

When the current phone is discontinued this summer, the OS will work for them.

Apple is taking the chance that they will lose millions of phone sales, and the considerable amount of profit from it, to GIVE away new software. Who else has been doing that?

This is called "good will". It's smart.

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 02:28 PM

To take things backward, you can't hold Apple to task for the carrier's problems. That was a complex subject, and going with GSM allowed Apple to easily get into markets that would have been difficult, and more expensive, to penetrate otherwise.

Which brings up Nokia again. You do know that they discontinued all phones for the Japanese market because they couldn't compete, and they announced they were stopping all development for that market? The also announced another group of firings around the world, 1,700 more. This includes R&D people and development people. Not a good sign.

Which features are "severely crippled". Or are you just making that statement because it sounds good in a generic way?

Just consider that when Apple GIVES AWAY this new OS 3.0 upgrade, all older phones, including the first gen discontinued phone will be able to use it, other than for what needs newer hardware. 90% of the features will work (MMS won't).

When the current phone is discontinued this summer, the OS will work for them.

Apple is taking the chance that they will lose millions of phone sales, and the considerable amount of profit from it, to GIVE away new software. Who else has been doing that?

This is called "good will". It's smart.

The MMS feature will be severely crippled...

MMS which has been around for a while on AT&Ts own network worked fine on their Edge network.. it still works with other phones daily... but for whatever reason even if you have a 3G phone (Which I own both) the MMS feature will only work if it has a 3G connection. Now even in the middle of downtown Chicago my Iphone will kick in and out of 3G mode... basically the feature will be broken more often than it is working considering the limited 3G network. Move outside of the Chicago city limits and 3G coverage becomes a screen with holes in it everwhere... a number of miles outside of Chicago and 3G is gone then all the way acrossed the state in the Quad Cities area is picks up again leaving an entire void in the middle where MMS support will be nil. Seems crippled to me..but what do I know. :D

It's really a mixed bag... I do like the fact that updates are free and add new features but it seems like they are taking approaches that don't make sense and simply telling people 'this is just how it works' with no real answers.

Maybe this is the norm for Apple :???:

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 02:30 PM

I'm suspicious of claims like this. I haven't seen a computing device that did not need reboots. Even people who claim they've run OS X for six months without a reboot. I tell them it would run much better if you'd done a reboot in that time.
Why?

I am a developer for a router company.. our software runs on a linux platform and runs for years until we want to upgrade them. I also have Windows Server boxes in the building that have uptimes for 6+ months at a time.. they run basic functions and services and the code is well tested and without major bugs... reboots are simply not necessary.

melgross

03-18-2009, 02:39 PM

The MMS feature will be severely crippled...

MMS which has been around for a while on AT&Ts own network worked fine on their Edge network.. it still works with other phones daily... but for whatever reason even if you have a 3G phone (Which I own both) the MMS feature will only work if it has a 3G connection. Now even in the middle of downtown Chicago my Iphone will kick in and out of 3G mode... basically the feature will be broken more often than it is working considering the limited 3G network. Move outside of the Chicago city limits and 3G coverage becomes a screen with holes in it everwhere... a number of miles outside of Chicago and 3G is gone then all the way acrossed the state in the Quad Cities area is picks up again leaving an entire void in the middle where MMS support will be nil. Seems crippled to me..but what do I know. :D

It's really a mixed bag... I do like the fact that updates are free and add new features but it seems like they are taking approaches that don't make sense and simply telling people 'this is just how it works' with no real answers.

Maybe this is the norm for Apple :???:

It's not the feature on the phone thats crippled. It's a network problem.

Here's an interesting article on this from the Wiki, which is pretty accurate. You'll notice some of the problems. Also, if you catch the drift, you will realize that it's moving to the 3G networks, and off the 2.5 G networks, so any drop in service there will affect it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service

melgross

03-18-2009, 02:44 PM

Why?

I am a developer for a router company.. our software runs on a linux platform and runs for years until we want to upgrade them. I also have Windows Server boxes in the building that have uptimes for 6+ months at a time.. they run basic functions and services and the code is well tested and without major bugs... reboots are simply not necessary.

He's talking about computers for the home.

Commercial installations, hopefully, have professionals running them, with a wrung out system that is stable, and using software that has been tested to work in that installation, with proper maintenance of both the software and hardware. Server OS's are more robust, and have services to allow those running the system to know what's happening.

And still, there are problems.

Home computing is, as you know, a very different environment.

Murphster

03-18-2009, 04:09 PM

There's simply no such thing as a background process running on a severely resource constrained device (battery, limited cpu and ram) running "quietly in the background."

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is and I use them everyday.

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 04:15 PM

He's talking about computers for the home.

Commercial installations, hopefully, have professionals running them, with a wrung out system that is stable, and using software that has been tested to work in that installation, with proper maintenance of both the software and hardware. Server OS's are more robust, and have services to allow those running the system to know what's happening.

And still, there are problems.

Home computing is, as you know, a very different environment.

This is very true.. though with such a closed niche enviroment (when we are dealing with Apples product and without a 3rd party program running) should the Iphone remain just as stable? Maybe I expect too much. :)

TenoBell

03-18-2009, 04:16 PM

The flip side of that is keeping a charger near by.

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is and I use them everyday.

S8ER01Z

03-18-2009, 04:20 PM

It's not the feature on the phone thats crippled. It's a network problem.

Here's an interesting article on this from the Wiki, which is pretty accurate. You'll notice some of the problems. Also, if you catch the drift, you will realize that it's moving to the 3G networks, and off the 2.5 G networks, so any drop in service there will affect it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service

Good link...I guess my biggest issue with it is that it's already working on the 2.5 G networks... even offering some kind of Wifi utilization for MMS would have been nice but to cut off a mass population of users with a 3G limitation just doesn't seem right.

Murphster

03-18-2009, 04:55 PM

melgross

03-18-2009, 05:02 PM

This is very true.. though with such a closed niche enviroment (when we are dealing with Apples product and without a 3rd party program running) should the Iphone remain just as stable? Maybe I expect too much. :)

I've already got five screens of programs, and I suspect that's not unusual.

I have up of a hundred on my tower.

melgross

03-18-2009, 05:04 PM

Good link...I guess my biggest issue with it is that it's already working on the 2.5 G networks... even offering some kind of Wifi utilization for MMS would have been nice but to cut off a mass population of users with a 3G limitation just doesn't seem right.

No different from what every government is doing with HD Tv.

Murphster

03-18-2009, 05:09 PM

What IS interesting is that despite the limitations, the iPhone has already made big inroads into business, and will continue to do so.

Not as much as you think, I spend all day with clients and the only iPhones I see are where the user has bought their own (usually sys admins) and connected it to exchange. The actual users are still on BB's and to a lesser degree winmob and Nokia's.

Corporate policy decide what phones are introduced not techies or admins. iPhone is not being seriously considered by any of my clients at all, though there has been a few conversations about it, so there is some interest just not enough yet. Apple still have work to do, as discussed running more than one app is one, another and perhaps more important is the reliance on the app store.

Vinea may mock my claims, but iPhones are being marketed as toys (by this I mean fun phones that let you do lots of things, surf web, download music, play games etc..) And yes while of course you can do these on the BB too, the Blackberry Bold and Curve are not marketed as such. Many, many CIO's are not convinced that they should be giving phones to staff that will allow them to do all this stuff on. They want to give phones to staff that will help them get their job done and not distract them anymore than they do. Hence why I said if Apple want to get serious about BB's core market they need a new model aimed at business that is marketed towards business. And please give it some proper keys!

And yes people can disagree with me, but this is my business and I speak to these people every day.

melgross

03-18-2009, 05:19 PM

Not as much as you think, I spend all day with clients and the only iPhones I see are where the user has bought their own (usually sys admins) and connected it to exchange. The actual users are still on BB's and to a lesser degree winmob and Nokia's.

Corporate policy decide what phones are introduced not techies or admins. iPhone is not being seriously considered by any of my clients at all, though there has been a few conversations about it, so there is some interest just not enough yet. Apple still have work to do, as discussed running more than one app is one, another and perhaps more important is the reliance on the app store.

Vinea may mock my claims, but iPhones are being marketed as toys (by this I mean fun phones that let you do lots of things, surf web, download music, play games etc..) And yes while of course you can do these on the BB too, the Blackberry Bold and Curve are not marketed as such. Many, many CIO's are not convinced that they should be giving phones to staff that will allow them to do all this stuff on. They want to give phones to staff that will help them get their job done and not distract them anymore than they do. Hence why I said if Apple want to get serious about BB's core market they need a new model aimed at business that is marketed towards business. And please give it some proper keys!

And yes people can disagree with me, but this is my business and I speak to these people every day.

Your clients are obviously a subset of the great world out there. Many organizations have moved over. There have been lots of stories on this over the past year.

yas2000

03-19-2009, 12:50 AM

If 10 million ipod customer upgrade to OS 3.0, apple would make 100 million, there is no way apple would have spend even half of that money for this release. This is what power of software means....
The things I am existed about are the ones people are not paying attention too... platform features (developer oriented rather than user oriented)...last year introduction of gps on iphone created an explosion of location services (at that time established platform such as PC and MAC did not have location APIs (since hardware does not have the GPS nor partical to have those function) .... this year apple is accessorizing the iphone via exposing the APIs for iphone hardware (USB, bluetooth, voice, sensors), these new additions would cause a explosion of application for consumer electronic hardware integration with iphone.... iphone may become a center of gravity for lot of hardware that has right now, no good way of integrating with the rest of the world...Some of the other vendors (Palm, BB, Google) may copy hardware integration aspect in 6-9 months
Hardware integration is an important step...apple is telling the hardware vendors we are building the best portable computing platform that is easy to use, develop and powerful UI...you only need to worry about the peripherals hardware for application (weather it is medical/engineering equipment, consumer electronic etc)....time to market would be key for those hardware vendors by using iphone as the app delivery mechanism they can really make a powerful product considering iphone as other hardware capabilities which they don't have to built(cell radio, GPS, audio recognisition, data processing, archiving and presenting capabilities)
Other than that I believe apple got to come up with a better push notifications management before June other wise this will be really annoying experience. imagine 10-20 apps using push notification that would to very interrupting experience.

vinea

03-19-2009, 06:35 AM

Not as much as you think, I spend all day with clients and the only iPhones I see are where the user has bought their own (usually sys admins) and connected it to exchange. The actual users are still on BB's and to a lesser degree winmob and Nokia's.

If you spend all day with sys admins who administer windows servers most often no kidding they aren't as likely to have iPhones vs BB's and winmob.

Try meeting with non-IT management and you'll see a good number of iPhones. CIOs and IT management resist the iPhone because it's not what they are used to and view it as more workload. However, if the CEO tells the CIO to make it happen, then after the requisite amount of foot dragging, it happens.

Corporate policy decide what phones are introduced not techies or admins. iPhone is not being seriously considered by any of my clients at all, though there has been a few conversations about it, so there is some interest just not enough yet. Apple still have work to do, as discussed running more than one app is one, another and perhaps more important is the reliance on the app store.

Yes, this is why there are no enterprise iPhone devs building apps for internal use. Not. Activesync was a major reason that iPhone enterprise penetration went up since 2.0. The most important app (email) is already running in the background.

3.0 introduces VPN on demand, and cert revocation. Two items more important than backgrounding apps to IT. Sybase and SAP are pushing into iPhone apps. SAP Business Suite 7 is getting on the iPhone and there's no freaking reason for them to do that if iPhone enterprise penetration is as low as you think.

Vinea may mock my claims, but iPhones are being marketed as toys (by this I mean fun phones that let you do lots of things, surf web, download music, play games etc..)

I mock you because your claims are severely biased (evidenced by your word choices) and your experiences more limited than you think.

Many, many CIO's are not convinced that they should be giving phones to staff that will allow them to do all this stuff on. They want to give phones to staff that will help them get their job done and not distract them anymore than they do. Hence why I said if Apple want to get serious about BB's core market they need a new model aimed at business that is marketed towards business. And please give it some proper keys!

No, Apple simply has to wait a bit and address the real concerns (it ain't keyboards, games or backgrounding apps...it's enterprise security). CIOs are slow to move but if enough other execs pester them they change.

And yes people can disagree with me, but this is my business and I speak to these people every day.

And I meet with tech execs and staff (R&D...not IT weenies) and it's different. Not every day but I make a note of what smartphones they carry since some of our applications are for the mobile space.

RolandG

03-19-2009, 06:40 AM

With the opening of the dock connector (and bluetooth) to third party developers will Apple finally make the Nike+ sports kit work on the iPhone as it does on the iPod touch?

S8ER01Z

03-19-2009, 08:06 AM

No different from what every government is doing with HD Tv.

Good point.. is there a big push to remove the 2.5G spectrum for other uses?? or is it completely saturated and failing already?

S8ER01Z

03-19-2009, 08:20 AM

Cisco?

I was under the impression that Cisco recommend a reboot every couple of months as a matter of good housekeeping.

Nope..but I have replaced several Cisco devices that had been running for very long periods of time (12+ months). :smokey:

Depending on who you talk to I think that old 'reboot once in a while' mantra gets thrown out for about everything. I know some people that honestly believe windows should be completely reinstalled every 6 months or it starts crashing (being on an Apple Forum I am sure many of you will agree with this..haha)... :no:

melgross

03-19-2009, 11:33 AM

Good point.. is there a big push to remove the 2.5G spectrum for other uses?? or is it completely saturated and failing already?

I don't really know. I do know that the carriers are pushing 3G and after, very hard. They want people to pay for those services, but it's been a hard sell.

Actually, they are rejoicing over the iPhone because of the high net usage there. That's why they are so eager to embrace other manufacturers that are starting to copy it. They really want to sell the data services that people have been resisting, and so they are beginning to give up more control.

Phone sales are ending their large growth stage. Not because of the economic condition now, but because most people who want a phone already have one. In the US, 85% of people now have a cellphone.

The only way they can continue growing their businesses is to move subscribers to the next level. The iPhone has made that more acceptable to people. Before, there was little reason for people to do so. Mostly, the experience sucked, and there was little to do.

Eventually, I would imagine that EDGE, CDMA and GSM will go away, and 4G will take over. But that will take years.

TenoBell

03-19-2009, 11:53 AM

Reinstalling the OS is entirely different from turning the machine off every once in awhile.

Depending on who you talk to I think that old 'reboot once in a while' mantra gets thrown out for about everything. I know some people that honestly believe windows should be completely reinstalled every 6 months or it starts crashing (being on an Apple Forum I am sure many of you will agree with this..haha)... :no:

S8ER01Z

03-19-2009, 12:07 PM

Reinstalling the OS is entirely different from turning the machine off every once in awhile.

I agree..was just pointing out that people will recommend things sometimes that are not necessary. :)

SpamSandwich

03-21-2009, 05:14 PM

The people on his forums are also vastly worse than the average Apple fanboy. They support every comment he makes, as from god. Talk about reality distortion fields!

I know you're right about this. Some folks think they should suck up to wealthy people to hedge their bets. I think one should treat others with wary respect. :p

wizard69

03-23-2009, 02:34 AM

I read so many people complaining about the lack of background applications! But can one of you give me at least ONE SIMPLE reason, why we need it?

The simplest reason is simply this, we as customers are asking for it.

However maybe you want more examples. One good one would be sound recording. There are many good use cases where one might want to record audio in background while using foreground apps. Another would be the logging of GPS position data while moving about. Niether of these involves network access which shoots holes in Apples point.

I (and i think many others to) could give you at least one reason for no background app: battery life!

That isn't an acceptable reason. Really it is as simple as that, it's my phone and my recharging expense, I should be able to run what I want in background. Depending on the design of the software a fully functional background app might not significantly impact battery life. Frankly I don't even see battery life as an issue close to the top, the limitations on RAM and CPU performance are bigger issues. Even here this is already a bigger variable than many seem to want to accept as the Touch has a faster processor and more available RAM.

The key here is that the Touch product line up is already broadening. As more capable devices become available in the future the lack of user background apps becomes more glaring. Which brings us to the next issue IPhone has background apps running already and thus has less RAM free than the iPod Touch. It is silly to keep a restriction in place just because one platform is a bit limited in what it can leverage.

Let's say that Apple comes out with a 4X Touch "iPod" in June. That is a machine with four times the RAM and four times the CPU performance. Would you still want to have to deal with all the current Mobile OS limitations on that device? Even the next gen iPhone should be considerably faster and hopefully fatter with respect to RAM, should this phone have the same limitations as earlier models? Apples hardware either needs to evolve or perish.

In any event all this whining about battery life is garbage. The simple reason is that each potential background app would have it's own power profile. Further reductions in power usage could come from the use of a good cron like feature that would sleep and wake back ground apps at a user selected rate.

Without background apps we mis out on a whole bunch of potential uses for iPhone. The notification system is nice for a certain subset of problems but it completely misses with respect to apps that only ever use local data.

Dave

wizard69

03-23-2009, 02:55 AM

http://www.apple.com/iphone/preview-iphone-os/

On the keynote at about 22 minute mark they discuss background processes.

"Why dont you just do background processes, it's easier to do background processes. The answer is it's bad for the customer."

Apple may say that and they may even believe it but it is utter crap. We can turn this around and say it is very bad for Apple to not give us what we want and in some cases need.

They did a test with an instant messaging process in background, and it dropped the battery life by 80% faster even without incoming messages. Different processes might drain battery at different rates, but all will drain more battery. All will eat up CPU cycles. All will suck up available RAM.

A background process doesn't use energy any faster when in background relative to foreground. It is up to the use to select the right app and manage the energy it uses.

In any event Apple credibility sucks here as they have choosen the example that would likely lead to the worst results. Not every background app needs to talk to the networks.

There's simply no such thing as a background process running on a severely resource constrained device (battery, limited cpu and ram) running "quietly in the background."

This happens every single day. Even on iPhone Apple multitasks it's blessed set of apps. Before Apple got rid of some nasty bugs they would even drain the battery for you.

Dave

vinea

03-23-2009, 06:39 AM

A background process doesn't use energy any faster when in background relative to foreground. It is up to the use to select the right app and manage the energy it uses.

In any event Apple credibility sucks here as they have choosen the example that would likely lead to the worst results. Not every background app needs to talk to the networks.

I thought their point was that general background apps can prevent the device from deep sleep? I don't recall now. Their current background apps either have an event timer (like alarm clock) or are mostly event driven (mail, phone calls, etc).

goose93940

03-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Does anyone know of a listing showing what all 100 features will be? I only found a list to include only 3-4 of them.

melgross

03-23-2009, 12:55 PM

The simplest reason is simply this, we as customers are asking for it.

Dave

Dave, this is always an interesting argument.

It can be looked at two ways.

The customer is always right.

And:

The company can make a product the way it feels is right, and the customer can choose to buy it or not.

Those are the two extremes. I think that the truth is somewhere between.

melgross

03-23-2009, 01:06 PM

Apple may say that and they may even believe it but it is utter crap. We can turn this around and say it is very bad for Apple to not give us what we want and in some cases need.

A background process doesn't use energy any faster when in background relative to foreground. It is up to the use to select the right app and manage the energy it uses.

In any event Apple credibility sucks here as they have choosen the example that would likely lead to the worst results. Not every background app needs to talk to the networks.

This happens every single day. Even on iPhone Apple multitasks it's blessed set of apps. Before Apple got rid of some nasty bugs they would even drain the battery for you.

Dave

Background apps either use the radio, which uses the most energy, and use processor cycles that otherwise wouldn't be used, again using energy, or just the latter.

In either case, background apps are using energy that wouldn't be used. It also slows other processes down, and slows foreground apps down.

I've noticed other phones slowing down when my friends put background apps on. So have they.

Even the most powerful phone doesn't have enough RAM for the apps, or enough cpu power for this to work well. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, because obviously it does.

With notifications, most needs for background apps will disappear.

Notice I said "most". for certain business security programs to work properly, background functioning is required. I use Norton Solutions on my new Mac Pro, and it needs to work in the background, so I do "get it". So does Lil" Snitch, which I wouldn't do without.

But for most people using the iPhone/iTouch, notifications will be fine.

I assume that when the devices are more powerful, have more program RAM, and better battery life (which may be coming soon ala the new MacBook Pro battery tech), Apple will add this functionality as well.

They do listen (MMS anyone?), but they do it when they think they've got it right.

wizard69

03-25-2009, 06:03 AM

Background apps either use the radio, which uses the most energy, and use processor cycles that otherwise wouldn't be used, again using energy, or just the latter.

In either case, background apps are using energy that wouldn't be used. It also slows other processes down, and slows foreground apps down.

It doesn't really matter as it is up to the user to to determine what if any apps will run in background. Many users would run nothing in background this suffering no performance impact. Those that do run background apps should be fully aware of the impact if any.

Frankly this isn't any different than what computer users have been doing for years. That is managing the workloads on their PCs to keep them responsive.

I've noticed other phones slowing down when my friends put background apps on. So have they.

Even the most powerful phone doesn't have enough RAM for the apps, or enough cpu power for this to work well. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, because obviously it does.

Well either it does or it doesn't do well. The thing here is that I believe everybody realizes the devices are not super computers, so I believe expectations are limited.

The other reality is that the iPhone OS runs on a number of products of varing capacity. Already the current iPod Touch is a more capable platform. Background apps will run better on this device so why should it suffer? Especially in the Touches case as it does not have to deal with cell processing.

With notifications, most needs for background apps will disappear.

See this is nothing but garbage, notifications are a good solution for a her small set of problems. There are many sound uses for these devices that involve background processes that never have to touch a network. One good example is sound recording.

Notice I said "most". for certain business security programs to work properly, background functioning is required. I use Norton Solutions on my new Mac Pro, and it needs to work in the background, so I do "get it". So does Lil" Snitch, which I wouldn't do without.

But for most people using the iPhone/iTouch, notifications will be fine.

Nope not at all. In fact notifications are even less useful on iPod Touch.

I assume that when the devices are more powerful, have more program RAM, and better battery life (which may be coming soon ala the new MacBook Pro battery tech), Apple will add this functionality as well.

RAM is an issue and I do hope that is quickly dealt with. But you need to understand that even now iPod Touch has more free memory than iPhone. Already the issue of performance is changing rapidly.

As to the Mac Book Pro there is nothing special about that battery other than it is bigger. Battery performance is certainly important and is one reason why I don't see the massive performance increases in the base iPhone. There are options coming for the battery eventually.

They do listen (MMS anyone?), but they do it when they think they've got it right.

Listen maybe or maybe they had it in the plans all along. I suspect that much of what we will see in 3.0 was intended to come. IPhone is a big project and I think many had expectations of rapid software evolution that Apple simply couldn't manage. They will realize whatever their vision of iPhone is first and then adopt the wants of the user base.

Of course Apple can't reveal what their vision is due to the OS being used on multiple devices. Long term though all of these devices will benefit from multiple user processes.

Dave

melgross

03-25-2009, 09:52 AM

It doesn't really matter as it is up to the user to to determine what if any apps will run in background. Many users would run nothing in background this suffering no performance impact. Those that do run background apps should be fully aware of the impact if any.

Frankly this isn't any different than what computer users have been doing for years. That is managing the workloads on their PCs to keep them responsive.

Well either it does or it doesn't do well. The thing here is that I believe everybody realizes the devices are not super computers, so I believe expectations are limited.

The other reality is that the iPhone OS runs on a number of products of varing capacity. Already the current iPod Touch is a more capable platform. Background apps will run better on this device so why should it suffer? Especially in the Touches case as it does not have to deal with cell processing.

You're looking at this from a perspective of someone who understands what is going on. Most buyers do not understand what is going on, and the performance declines won't be understood for what they are. People will just complain about what is happening to their phones.

The iPhone, so far, is very different from any other phone out as to the way it's being used. No other phone is so heavily oriented to multimedia as is the iPhone. As such, it will be more heavily impacted than other phones. People will just keep loading these social programs filled with background needs until the phone crawls to a halt.

I can't wait until some of the other platforms get the number of programs that require this.

See this is nothing but garbage, notifications are a good solution for a her small set of problems. There are many sound uses for these devices that involve background processes that never have to touch a network. One good example is sound recording.

Nope not at all. In fact notifications are even less useful on iPod Touch.

Nope. That's correct. Tell us exactly why we will need background applications more than notification. Which apps will benefit us more from that that push. Make a good case here, because it will be a difficult one!

Other than security applications, which few iPhone users will need, what apps will the large majority need that requires background running?

RAM is an issue and I do hope that is quickly dealt with. But you need to understand that even now iPod Touch has more free memory than iPhone. Already the issue of performance is changing rapidly.

As to the Mac Book Pro there is nothing special about that battery other than it is bigger. Battery performance is certainly important and is one reason why I don't see the massive performance increases in the base iPhone. There are options coming for the battery eventually.

Not correct either. It's been noted more than a few times by writers in the industry that Application RAM is too small on either device for goos background performance.

As to the battery, that wrong as well. Not only is the battery larger, but it lasts twice as long. It also has a higher power densityl.

Listen maybe or maybe they had it in the plans all along. I suspect that much of what we will see in 3.0 was intended to come. IPhone is a big project and I think many had expectations of rapid software evolution that Apple simply couldn't manage. They will realize whatever their vision of iPhone is first and then adopt the wants of the user base.

Of course Apple can't reveal what their vision is due to the OS being used on multiple devices. Long term though all of these devices will benefit from multiple user processes.

Dave

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I suspect they didn't.