Bible Study or Religious Assembly?

[jazzguru]

Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html)

What do you think? Does the 1st Amendment protect these people in this case?

[Hands Sandon]

Need more facts. Fox Spews is no good.

Here are some quotes I came across looking at another forum on this topic~

"Investigators say a troubling number of the area's Christian men hold "militant" anti-American views and sympathize with Dick Cheney. They typically work as taxi drivers, gathering at local residences during their breaks, as well as at a nearby church tied to 11/08.

Quote:
Authorities estimate the San Diego area is home to about 6,000 Obama haters, most of whom are Christian.

Quote:
All of them worshipped at the same residence– the San Diego Private Bible Study Center – whose leaders deny a connection.
Investigators, however, suspect the participants were recruited and bankrolled there. The Bible study's leader is on the FBI's terror watch list and is grounded from air travel."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/656251-home-no-place-bible-study-county-16.html

[franksargent]

Has this story received any traction outside of Fix Noise and the conservative blog-o-smear?

For example has the AP released a story on this? A local San Diego news story with the full monty?

I smell a rat, namely Sean, Glenn, and Bill, et. al., titled along the lines "An Assult on Christianity" or some such. :rolleyes:

[screener]

Need more facts. Fox Spews is no good.

Here are some quotes I came across looking at another forum on this topic~
Hope you were just funnin'.

Disclaimer: All quotes listed above were taken and changed without the consent of the original author to be used strictly for ludicrous affect.
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98997

[jazzguru]

I found the post where you got these quotes. Did you notice the disclaimer at the end?

Disclaimer: All quotes listed above were taken and changed without the consent of the original author to be used strictly for ludicrous affect.

It would seem the "Fox Spews" article has more credibility than your "quotes".

You wanted more facts:

Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies (http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html)

Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"

The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.

[Hands Sandon]

Hope you were just funnin'.

I read that. I thought it was completely obvious. No?

[jazzguru]

Has this story received any traction outside of Fix Noise and the conservative blog-o-smear?

For example has the AP released a story on this? A local San Diego news story with the full monty?

I smell a rat, namely Sean, Glenn, and Bill, et. al., titled along the lines "An Assult on Christianity" or some such. :rolleyes:

If the AP doesn't report it, it never happened, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[screener]

I read that. I thought it was completely obvious. No?
In my view and stories that come out of the US, anything is possible.

Although I did go to site to confirm over the top bullshit, maybe.

[Hands Sandon]

I found the post where you got these quotes. Did you notice the disclaimer at the end?



It would seem the "Fox Spews" article has more credibility than your "quotes".

You wanted more facts:

Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies (http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html)

It was just meant to be FUNNY, satirical!

I didn't think anyone would think they were serious quotes:???: + I provided the link!!

[franksargent]

If the AP doesn't report it, it never happened, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

For example ... means for example. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jazzguru]

For example ... means for example.

Indeed.

Let me restate.

If [insert preferred source here] doesn't report it, it never happened, right?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

:D

[screener]

You wanted more facts:

Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies (http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html)
An update to your link.
Apparently they were having these meetings for 5 years without anyone complaining or the county knowing about it.
Then,
Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.
http://www.10news.com/news/19585458/detail.html

[franksargent]

Indeed.

Let me restate.

If [insert preferred source here] doesn't report it, it never happened, right?

Putting your words into other people's mouths again, I see.

Strawperson.

[franksargent]

An update to your link.
Apparently they were having these meetings for 5 years without anyone complaining or the county knowing about it.
Then,

http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

We still have only half the story, where's the County's side of the story on this?

[jazzguru]

Putting your words into other people's mouths again, I see.

Strawperson.

:lol: The irony is hilarious. It really is.

[jazzguru]

We still have only half the story, where's the County's side of the story on this?

Unless the county can cite relevant Wikipedia articles and peer reviewed papers, I'm not interested.

[screener]

We still have only half the story, where's the County's side of the story on this?
Don't know, guess they haven't said, or, expect their ordinances to be obeyed.

Just a thought, isn't San Diego a mostly Republican County?

I guess I could check it on Wikipedia just to humor a frankfan.

[franksargent]

The irony is hilarious. It really is.

Yes the irony is doubly hilarious, when you repeatedly attempt to put your words in other people's mouths.

[franksargent]

Unless the county can cite relevant Wikipedia articles and peer reviewed papers, I'm not interested.

What? So you have peer reviewed papers and Wikipedia links on this?

Talk about biased reportage.

[jazzguru]

Yes the irony is doubly hilarious, when you repeatedly attempt to put your words in other people's mouths.

I was asking a question, which you have yet to answer.

[jazzguru]

What? So you have peer reviewed papers and Wikipedia links on this?

Talk about biased reportage.

I do?

[franksargent]

I do?

You don't?

[franksargent]

I was asking a question, which you have yet to answer.

See my original answer here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1423193&postcount=10). So your original question, in whatever form you want to edit it, will receive the same answer.

Most people phrase their question in the form of a question with a question mark at the end. :D

I do not see a question or a question mark.

What gives?

[jazzguru]

See my original answer here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1423193&postcount=10). So your original question, in whatever form you want to edit it, will receive the same answer.

Most people phrase their question in the form of a question with a question mark at the end. :D

I do not see a question or a question mark.

What gives?

My question was:


If [insert preferred source here] doesn't report it, it never happened, right?

[franksargent]

My question was:

See here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1423193&postcount=10).

[jazzguru]

See here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showpost.php?p=1423193&postcount=10).

You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

[Taskiss]

It all depends on how many people attend. I understand it's an average of 15, but what is the max... how often do they meet, how many cars clog the streets. I've seen culs-de-sac where more than a few cars added to the mix causes congestion in the neighborhood. If my neighbors played that game with any regularity, I'd have a problem with it too, and if talking nicely didn't work, I'd file a complaint with the authorities. Perhaps that's what happened here. Perhaps not...

There's more to this story than what is being reported, is my guess.

[screener]

Funny how some come late to thread without reading the thread and then theorize about a point already established.

[vinea]

Funny how some come late to thread without reading the thread and then theorize about a point already established.

If you are refering to Taskiss' post pray tell what was the maximum number that attended, how often they met during the week and how many cars in the street?

Christian I may be but having an extra 9-10 cars on my block a couple nights a week and I'll be rather irate too after a while. Especially if I depended on street parking.

Oddly, i've never been to a 15 average bible study in a home. Any time we exceed a half dozen cars (call it 6-7 couples) we end up using the church because of parking and meeting space. I can fit quite a few folks even in a small apartment for a party but that assumes folks are standing around chatting/drinking/eating. Not seated somewhere trying to read from a book and be able to see/hear the other 14 people.

It's also kinda hard to get 15 people engaged in a bible study with discussion. I guess if you just have the main person leading the study pontificate about whatever that sorta works. Or if you split into a couple groups. Folks in the family room and folks in the basement.

Of course, that begs the question of why not two smaller study groups on different nights.

[screener]

Who called the county.

Post #12 answered the question and why.

[vinea]

Who called the county.

Post #12 answered the question and why.

I don't think that question was asked.

Those other questions would give an indication how much or little they were being a general nuisance. That they bumped a car and didn't resolve it in some amicable way is an indicator that these folks weren't too concerned with others.

[vinea]

I was asking a question, which you have yet to answer.

How odd...I recall asking you a question too, which you have yet to answer.

Given your inability to answer that (bible) question I wonder why this issue even bothers you given it seems unlikely you've been to a bible study...

[screener]

Never said anyone asked a question.

Read the post I responded to, the one that theorized on what may or may not have happened.

The meetings had been going on for 5 years without the county knowing, probably because no one had a problem with them or the parking.

The poster I responded to, real person or something else, obviously jumped into the thread without reading what had been posted.

[Taskiss]

I don't think that question was asked.I think I might understand...

I don't see all posts...let's just leave it at that.

[jazzguru]

How odd...I recall asking you a question too, which you have yet to answer.

Given your inability to answer that (bible) question I wonder why this issue even bothers you given it seems unlikely you've been to a bible study...

My lack of response to your Bible question was not due to inability. You may assume whatever you wish.

[vinea]

My lack of response to your Bible question was not due to inability. You may assume whatever you wish.

Right. Because you are the type of individual that avoids conflict on message boards and has acted as a paragon of proper Christian behavior.

Your lack of response is completely due to your inability to back up your assertions of what the bible says and doesn't say by quoting the relevant verses from the Bible. First because you don't know what the Bible says or you wouldn't have made those assertions in the first place and second because those verses don't exist.

Edit: Oh geez. You're a mormon.

[John.B]

"What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.
Last time I checked, the Chargers are a football team. :lol:

[screener]

I don't see all posts...let's just leave it at that.
:lol:

[franksargent]

You didn't answer my question. Please try again.

If [insert preferred source here] doesn't report it, it never happened, right?


Wrong. :\

But, you may assume what you wish.

Heck, you even provided a 2nd link to an ABC news channel's report.

But even that isn't enough, as I wisk to seek the total story, for example who filed the complaint (another link from screener helps somewhat), the County's initial response (apparently a citation), and a response from the County subsequent to the initial news reporting (but it would have been much better if said news reportage had already included the County's response).

[insert preferred source here] means what exactly? Your preference, my preference, who's preference?

I do know from many past experiences that FNC is rather low on the rungs of accurate news reportage.

I neither implied (implicitly/explicitly) a preferred source, I stated "for example" which has no bounds other than to attempt to receive objective news reporting, preferably from several news sources, the blog-o-smear is just that, and nothing more.

... doesn't report it, it never happened, right?

WTF?

Your question falls into the catagory of a loaded question, since it assumes I have preferred news sources, and that if my preferred news sources do not report on this, then it never happened.

So you are accusing me of believing that what was reported, by apparently a non-preferred news source, means that I believe that this news story is a complete fabrication.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

But again, you may assume what you wish. :D

[jazzguru]

Right. Because you are the type of individual that avoids conflict on message boards and has acted as a paragon of proper Christian behavior.

Your lack of response is completely due to your inability to back up your assertions of what the bible says and doesn't say by quoting the relevant verses from the Bible. First because you don't know what the Bible says or you wouldn't have made those assertions in the first place and second because those verses don't exist.

Edit: Oh geez. You're a mormon.

Yes, I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as Mormons.

I have never asserted that I am perfect, nor that I am a "paragon of proper Christian behavior". Though I am trying to be a little better each day.

I enjoy healthy debate and discussion, which is why I participate in forums such as this. But I am certain you of all people know that the Bible, indeed as with any other comprehensive or influential writings--the Constitution for example--can be interpreted in many different ways.

Quoting verses from the Bible back and forth in a confrontational or contentious manner accomplishes little, in my experience.

But again, you may assume what you wish.

[jazzguru]

Wrong. :\

Heck you even provided a 2nd link to an ABC news channel's report.

But even that isn't enough, as I wisk to seek the total story, for example who filed the complaint (another link from screener helps somewhat), the County's initial response (apparently a citation), and a response from the County subsequent to the initial news reporting (but it would have been much better if said news reportage had already included the County's response).

[insert preferred source here] means what exactly? Your preference, my preference, who's preference?

I do know from many past experiences that FNC is rather low on the rungs of accurate news reportage.

I neither implied (implicitly/explicitly) a preferred source, I stated "for example" which has no bounds other than to attempt to receive objective news reporting, preferably from several news sources, the blog-o-smear is just that, and nothing more.

... doesn't report it, it never happened, right?

WTF?

Your question falls into the catagory of a loaded question, since it assumes I have preferred news sources, and that if my preferred news sources do not report on this, then it never happened.

So you are accusing me of believing that what was reported, by apparently a non-preferred news source, means that I believe that this news story is a complete fabrication.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thanks for explaining. I apologize for making assumptions that were clearly wrong. And I'm not being sarcastic.

[vinea]

I enjoy healthy debate and discussion, which is why I participate in forums such as this. But I am certain you of all people know that the Bible, indeed as with any other comprehensive or influential writings--the Constitution for example--can be interpreted in many different ways.

Quoting verses from the Bible back and forth in a confrontational or contentious manner accomplishes little, in my experience.

But again, you may assume what you wish.

Then don't be confrontational but informational.

The point isn't one of interpretation but of existence. This isn't a subjective question but an objective one. One that the Constitutionalists should be able to answer easily given that the entire platform is based on the bible.

If you say that X is based on the teachings of the bible then it should be a trivial task to answer with verses when asked "What teachings?"

BTW "you may assume what you wish" IS a confrontational passive-agressive manner. You constantly deride Frank on desiring citations and reffering to wikipedia entries and yet you cannot even answer a simple question on your most important reference book. I may give Fellows a bit of flack now and again but for the most part he's on an even keel. You hardly ever show a "christian"* attititude.

Okay, for a mormon I guess it's the second or third most important reference book.

--

* for the record I'm mostly lapsed with traces of apostasy and herasy.

[jazzguru]

Then don't be confrontational but informational.

The point isn't one of interpretation but of existence. This isn't a subjective question but an objective one. One that the Constitutionalists should be able to answer easily given that the entire platform is based on the bible.

If you say that X is based on the teachings of the bible then it should be a trivial task to answer with verses when asked "What teachings?"

BTW "you may assume what you wish" IS a confrontational passive-agressive manner. You constantly deride Frank on desiring citations and reffering to wikipedia entries and yet you cannot even answer a simple question on your most important reference book. I may give Fellows a bit of flack now and again but for the most part he's on an even keel. You hardly ever show a "christian"* attititude.

Okay, for a mormon I guess it's the second or third most important reference book.

--

* for the record I'm mostly lapsed with traces of apostasy and herasy.

Can you elaborate on what "christian" attitude you are looking for? There are so many different views on that.

Even Jesus Christ himself did not answer every question that was given him. He knew when to speak and when to be silent. His silence was not a sign of weakness.

From our 8th Article of Faith: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

Our official "cannon" includes the King James Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. We consider all 4 books equal in importance.

[screener]

An update, County official responds,
http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html
The county official said Jones has got it all wrong and tried to explain the curious line of questioning the county had for the pastor.

[Northgate]

If the AP doesn't report it, it never happened, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And if Fixed News reports it, it is real news, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[screener]

I don't know jazzguru, if the Wiki link has it right, The Book of Mormon's beginnings is pretty much weird, unbelievable and other words that come to mind that I won't post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon

[jazzguru]

And if Fixed News reports it, it is real news, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Of course not. They report, you decide. :D

[jazzguru]

I don't know jazzguru, if the Wiki link has it right, The Book of Mormon's beginnings is pretty much weird, unbelievable and other words that come to mind that I won't post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon

There is a way you can know for sure whether or not it is true without having to take anyone else's word for it.

It's actually explained in the book itself.

Moroni 10: 3-5

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

[screener]

There is a way you can know for sure whether or not it is true without having to take anyone else's word for it.

It's actually explained in the book itself.

Moroni 10: 3-5
Right, believe that Smith was visited by an angel named Moroni and what Smith wrote is unquestionably true.

See, ask how anyone can believe this stuff, and they point you to their version of scripture and wonder why others find it hard to believe or question it.

Why not just say you believe because you want to.

[jazzguru]

Right, believe that Smith was visited by an angel named Moroni and what Smith wrote is unquestionably true.

See, ask how anyone can believe this stuff, and they point you to their version of scripture and wonder why others find it hard to believe or question it.

Why not just say you believe because you want to.

I believe because I did what those verses suggest and I received an answer.

[vinea]

Right, believe that Smith was visited by an angel named Moroni and what Smith wrote is unquestionably true.

See, ask how anyone can believe this stuff, and they point you to their version of scripture and wonder why others find it hard to believe or question it.

Why not just say you believe because you want to.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933

http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/712/

[screener]

I believe because I did what those verses suggest and I received an answer.
From?

[screener]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933

http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/712/
On dial-up, a more expansive synopsis than the site provides would help.

[jazzguru]

From?

I received an answer from God--the Being to whom my question was directed.

[screener]

I received an answer from God--the Being to whom my question was directed.
Nuff said.
No offence.

[jazzguru]

Nuff said.
No offence.

None taken. You asked an honest question, I gave an honest answer.

[vinea]

On dial-up, a more expansive synopsis than the site provides would help.

Well...it's south park. If you can't watch it, it's not so funny.

[jamac]

Just a thought, isn't San Diego a mostly Republican County?


Yes, indeed mostly Republinsane. The San Diego mayor just came out pro gay marriage because his daughter is lesbian. He admitted to "just following his party's talking points to get re-elected and not forming his own opinion."

Bible - study is a juxtaposition. WTF can one study in the bible, nailing? Torture? Hating women properly? Constantine's writing skills?

[jamac]

Moroni 10: 3-5

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

:lol:
:lol:

That's some funny shit, boy.

[screener]

Update,
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.

[a_greer]

Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html)

What do you think? Does the 1st Amendment protect these people in this case?

Well, other than Faux-"News", the SF Chronicle is the only one covering it, and if it happened on Good Friday, I would imagine that it woulda busted wide open by now.

I smell a rat because if the story was exactly what happened, there would be outrage all over the media! and besides, since when have small religious gatherings, or any gatherings on private property that dont violate noise or crowd limits need any sort of permit?

Never heard of needing a business permit and zoning to have a tupperware party, never had to get a permit to have 5-10 friends over to watch the game and drink beer, so why would you possibly need a permit of any sort to pray and read the Bible with a reasonable sized group in a private residence?

I have to say, if there isnt some key element being omited, this thing woulda been big, hell, at least Boss Limbaugh (as Keith Olberman calls him) woulda talked it up...right?

If the problem wasx traffic, they shoulda sited him for that, or maybe the neighbors that had a beef coulda, i dunno mentioned it to him directly and let him resolve the issue, maybe via carpooling strategies or something... I dont beleive that one accedent would cause this, it is the fault of the driver who made contact, why that driver was there has no bearing on the wreck and the wreck should have no impact on the bible meetings.

[franksargent]

Update,
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/

I thought so.

[Bergermeister]

What if the group had been studying the Koran?

[Hands Sandon]

What if the group had been studying the Koran?

Where's the outrage?

"WARREN, MI, 4/16/09) - The Council of Islamic Organizations of Michigan (CIOM) today asks US Attorney General Eric Holder to launch an investigation into complaints that Michigan Muslims are being approached to spy on activities of Muslim congregations by the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI). Through coercion of certain members of congregations, the FBI is reportedly promoting entrapment of innocent, law-abiding citizens in otherwise peaceful houses of worship." ~ http://www.ccun.org/Opinion%20Editorials/2009/April/18%20o/Peter%20King%20Demands%20Targeting%20Mosques,%20Co mplaints%20of%20FBI%20Spying%20on%20Muslim%20Ameri cans.htm#WORSHIPPERS