When might we see the next big improvement in hardware for MBP's? I assume with the arrival of snow leopard and grand central, apple will update their hardware to fully leverage the new OS as soon as possible.
I only can see Apple using 32nm Quads due to power/performance ratio.
I wouldn't expect 45nm Clarksfield on February 2010 update, but we may see it's successor on October 2010. But still Arrandale will be most likely option for both two future revisions of MBP.
Sandy Bridge based 32nm and 22nm Quads (Or even Octos) may become CPUs for June 2011 and February 2012 machines.
One often repeated Rumor is that Intel will ship 45nm mobile devices and go directly to 32nm. The idea being that the 32nm hardware will be available in either the fourth quaternary 2009 or very early 2010. If this is true I could see Apple waiting for the hardware.
You are right in the sense that Apple needs to deliver quadcores soon in order to properly support SL. At least I hope Apple understands the situation the way we do. I have this huge fear that they will try to sell Hyper Threading as being good enough and just give us two cores. At 32nm four cores and a GPU on the die should not be a problem.
In anyevent I agree that the launch of SL without real quad cores available, on at least some machines is stupid. That of course won't stop Apple.
The next revision will likely have a dual-core CPU that can handle 2 threads each for a total of 4 threads, which should still be a nice improvement. They're 'quad-thread' but not 'quad-core'.
Those CPUs are rumored to become available in Q4 2009 or Q1 2010. Half a year away at least.
Only the next revision after that will be true quad-core CPUs. Not expected earlier than Q4 2010 according to current rumors. Perhaps even 2011.
Time will tell. But it seems true quad-core laptops from Apple are at least 1 1/2 years away.
Take a deep breath if you intend to hold it... I wouldn't. I would decide to get a Mac Pro instead.
If you need the power, abandoning mobile is currently your best bet.
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
So it's time to upgrade, but I did not want to do so right before there was likely to be a major shift in hardware in Apple's laptops. While the quad core power would be nice, I value the portability since I don't need much more than an above average user.
Thanks again, I'll be taking a hard look at the MBP's once SL is released...
I think Apple will deliver a Macbook Pro Quad Core 17" model.
let's hope so! The model is ready for an update.
Quote:
Primarily because it has the largest surface area for cooling. It has the largest
area for battery tech giving it the longest run time.
Many of the people buying 17" laptops are truly Pro and thus need the extras
resolution/size of the LCD and need the Expresscard support.
exactly, the 17" is where quads should happen first. However the 15" laptop should gave the option available.
Quote:
These people would benefit mostly from quad core as they are running apps that
heavily tax the system.
True, but don't forget that SL will change the equations dramatically as to how well those cores are utilized. I suspect that even for average users more Han four threads will be useful. This doesn't mean a dual core four thread chip won't run impressively, just that both the system and the revised apps are expected to heavily leverage lots of cores. In anyevent I could see one or two laptop models and all the iMacs going quad core as soon as Intel has production online.
1. the 32 nm process takes less, not more power per transistor to run
The current leakage, however, is higher. So the idle and sleep power are higher. With these chips that alter clocks and selectively shut down features to save power when not needed, the leakage matters.
4. Larger chassis means more metal which means more area to dissipate heat. Aluminum is a good property for heat distribution.
5. The two are not mutually exclusive. Grand Central Dispatch should scale well with more compute resources.
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
Wrong
Apple states that the alum body allows it to use more powerful chips and drives . The plastic model couldn't handle it .
I Quote and link a YATES articles below ,so dude please don't make stuff up. Ok . Thank you
>>>>>>>
JULY 07, 2009
MacBook Pro soars to new heights
es
By Tom Yager | InfoWorld
Quick, cool, and roomy
The MacBook Pro is a machine with desktop specs. The 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 1,066MHz DDR3 memory, and dual Nvidia GPUs inevitably contribute heat to the design. A plastic PC notebook with similar power would need a noisy fan just to survive. I don't have a PC notebook in this class that I can bear to share a room with, much less have in my lap. The MacBook Pro runs cool and silent the majority of the time by using its aluminum frame as a heat sink and by carefully managing power. If you push the machine with a desktop workload by running the likes of a 3-D game, an HD video transcode, or a multithreaded compile or benchmark, it will get too hot for your unprotected lap. The problem is compounded if you're charging the battery while making high demands on the hardware. However, in everyday interactive work, the newest, fastest 15-inch MacBook Pro is also the coolest (in temperature) and quietest notebook I've used.
1. the 32 nm process takes less, not more power per transistor to run
True but who or where was the oposite stated? People here have stated that Apple might wait for the 32nm devices because they would use less power and with the outside hope that quad core would be a no brainer.
Quote:
2. having 2 more cores does not necessarily mean it will draw more power
Well somewhat true, two cores will draw more power on the same process but it isn't a direct doubling of power that many seem to think. What many don't realize is that a good amount of power in any CPU chip goes to driving the I/O pins.
Quote:
3. SL takes less, not more resources to run
Well this could be debated at length, but by definition SL needs more resources to leverage all of it's features. For example some features won't work at all without the right GPUs. Further tricks like playing movies in icons in finder take resources that would not have been used in previous versions of finder. I understand what you are saying about SL but it is very debatable depending on your perspective.
Quote:
4. the 17 inch MPB does not have more surface area for cooling simply because heat inside the computer is not spread homogenously
Area is area. As to spreading heat around the new chips do concentrate that heat into a smaller area which is a problem. A CPU with integrated graphics does make you wonder just how hot of a chip Apple can integrate into the machine.
As an example let's say the old chips where 30 watts for the CPU and 10 watts for the iGPU, does this mean the new notebooks will have 40 to 45 watt iCPUs in them? The power draw would be the same but thermal management much more difficult. Personally I think we will see Apple try to run the chips at a lower overall power level to keep thermals manageable in laptops.
Quote:
5. the greatest speed gains will come when developers take full advantage of grand central, not when you buy a quad core
Well there is a mouthful. See you are right in a sense that truly leverage SL you need to use the new facilities in SL. Except for of course the stuff that Apple will have already optimized for. However one can not leverage parallism with out the SMP hardware available to truly run the threads at the same time. The exception here being OpenCL threads, but even here you need the hardware.
The current leakage, however, is higher. So the idle and sleep power are higher. With these chips that alter clocks and selectively shut down features to save power when not needed, the leakage matters.
Pure mental masturbation on your part. What matters is the average power drain and not what you said.
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
Nonsense ..pure nonsense.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
Of course the aluminum enclosure will be superior to plastic for heat dissipation. But the difference between 15 and 17 inch is marginal at best.
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
So it's time to upgrade, but I did not want to do so right before there was likely to be a major shift in hardware in Apple's laptops. While the quad core power would be nice, I value the portability since I don't need much more than an above average user.
Thanks again, I'll be taking a hard look at the MBP's once SL is released...
You've been using a G4 for so long that any MBP will seem like a major upgrade, because it is. Quad core won't be of much help for a while unless you're doing something that's computationally heavy. Something I haven't seen pointed out here is that you'll get a major GHz drop to get quad core. Last I recall, the fastest mobile dual core is just above 3GHz, the fastest mobile quad core is around 2GHz. On a quad core, any task that can't be broken down to multiple cores will run slower, and in order to run faster than the dual core, you'll need to fully use at least three cores.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
I'm doing custom watercooled PC's for several years and I know what I'm talking about.
MBP's case isn't connected to heatsink and it doesn't play any big role in cooling.
You not being able to understand that doesn't make it "nonsense ..pure nonsense".
The case IS the heatsink you dum dum... what do you think happens when heat is conducted by a metal exposed to cool air with convective currents?
Go back to highschool.
Are you serious? We are talking about 20-40W of heat to dissipate mainly using copper heatsink, not by insignificant airflow between case and heatpipe/copper plate.
Chip - Plate - Heatpipe - Air - Case chain has much higher thermal resistance than any kind of air cooled radiator.
Comments
I wouldn't expect 45nm Clarksfield on February 2010 update, but we may see it's successor on October 2010. But still Arrandale will be most likely option for both two future revisions of MBP.
Sandy Bridge based 32nm and 22nm Quads (Or even Octos) may become CPUs for June 2011 and February 2012 machines.
You are right in the sense that Apple needs to deliver quadcores soon in order to properly support SL. At least I hope Apple understands the situation the way we do. I have this huge fear that they will try to sell Hyper Threading as being good enough and just give us two cores. At 32nm four cores and a GPU on the die should not be a problem.
In anyevent I agree that the launch of SL without real quad cores available, on at least some machines is stupid. That of course won't stop Apple.
Dave
Those CPUs are rumored to become available in Q4 2009 or Q1 2010. Half a year away at least.
Only the next revision after that will be true quad-core CPUs. Not expected earlier than Q4 2010 according to current rumors. Perhaps even 2011.
Time will tell. But it seems true quad-core laptops from Apple are at least 1 1/2 years away.
Take a deep breath if you intend to hold it... I wouldn't. I would decide to get a Mac Pro instead.
If you need the power, abandoning mobile is currently your best bet.
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
So it's time to upgrade, but I did not want to do so right before there was likely to be a major shift in hardware in Apple's laptops. While the quad core power would be nice, I value the portability since I don't need much more than an above average user.
Thanks again, I'll be taking a hard look at the MBP's once SL is released...
Primarily because it has the largest surface area for cooling. It has the largest
area for battery tech giving it the longest run time.
Many of the people buying 17" laptops are truly Pro and thus need the extras
resolution/size of the LCD and need the Expresscard support.
These people would benefit mostly from quad core as they are running apps that
heavily tax the system.
I think Apple will deliver a Macbook Pro Quad Core 17" model.
let's hope so! The model is ready for an update.
Primarily because it has the largest surface area for cooling. It has the largest
area for battery tech giving it the longest run time.
Many of the people buying 17" laptops are truly Pro and thus need the extras
resolution/size of the LCD and need the Expresscard support.
exactly, the 17" is where quads should happen first. However the 15" laptop should gave the option available.
These people would benefit mostly from quad core as they are running apps that
heavily tax the system.
True, but don't forget that SL will change the equations dramatically as to how well those cores are utilized. I suspect that even for average users more Han four threads will be useful. This doesn't mean a dual core four thread chip won't run impressively, just that both the system and the revised apps are expected to heavily leverage lots of cores. In anyevent I could see one or two laptop models and all the iMacs going quad core as soon as Intel has production online.
Dave
1. the 32 nm process takes less, not more power per transistor to run
2. having 2 more cores does not necessarily mean it will draw more power
3. SL takes less, not more resources to run
4. the 17 inch MPB does not have more surface area for cooling simply because heat inside the computer is not spread homogenously
5. the greatest speed gains will come when developers take full advantage of grand central, not when you buy a quad core
Everything being said here is wrong:
1. the 32 nm process takes less, not more power per transistor to run
The current leakage, however, is higher. So the idle and sleep power are higher. With these chips that alter clocks and selectively shut down features to save power when not needed, the leakage matters.
4. the 17 inch MPB does not have more surface area for cooling simply because heat inside the computer is not spread homogenously
5. the greatest speed gains will come when developers take full advantage of grand central, not when you buy a quad core
4. Larger chassis means more metal which means more area to dissipate heat. Aluminum is a good property for heat distribution.
5. The two are not mutually exclusive. Grand Central Dispatch should scale well with more compute resources.
4. Larger chassis means more metal which means more area to dissipate heat. Aluminum is a good property for heat distribution.
5. The two are not mutually exclusive. Grand Central Dispatch should scale well with more compute resources.
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
Why bother .
9
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
Wrong
Apple states that the alum body allows it to use more powerful chips and drives . The plastic model couldn't handle it .
I Quote and link a YATES articles below ,so dude please don't make stuff up. Ok . Thank you
>>>>>>>
JULY 07, 2009
MacBook Pro soars to new heights
es
By Tom Yager | InfoWorld
Quick, cool, and roomy
The MacBook Pro is a machine with desktop specs. The 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 1,066MHz DDR3 memory, and dual Nvidia GPUs inevitably contribute heat to the design. A plastic PC notebook with similar power would need a noisy fan just to survive. I don't have a PC notebook in this class that I can bear to share a room with, much less have in my lap. The MacBook Pro runs cool and silent the majority of the time by using its aluminum frame as a heat sink and by carefully managing power. If you push the machine with a desktop workload by running the likes of a 3-D game, an HD video transcode, or a multithreaded compile or benchmark, it will get too hot for your unprotected lap. The problem is compounded if you're charging the battery while making high demands on the hardware. However, in everyday interactive work, the newest, fastest 15-inch MacBook Pro is also the coolest (in temperature) and quietest notebook I've used.
http://www.infoworld.com/d/hardware/...0,1&sr=hotnews
>>>>>>>>>>>
The MBP doubles as a room cooler.
9
Everything being said here is wrong:
1. the 32 nm process takes less, not more power per transistor to run
True but who or where was the oposite stated? People here have stated that Apple might wait for the 32nm devices because they would use less power and with the outside hope that quad core would be a no brainer.
2. having 2 more cores does not necessarily mean it will draw more power
Well somewhat true, two cores will draw more power on the same process but it isn't a direct doubling of power that many seem to think. What many don't realize is that a good amount of power in any CPU chip goes to driving the I/O pins.
3. SL takes less, not more resources to run
Well this could be debated at length, but by definition SL needs more resources to leverage all of it's features. For example some features won't work at all without the right GPUs. Further tricks like playing movies in icons in finder take resources that would not have been used in previous versions of finder. I understand what you are saying about SL but it is very debatable depending on your perspective.
4. the 17 inch MPB does not have more surface area for cooling simply because heat inside the computer is not spread homogenously
Area is area. As to spreading heat around the new chips do concentrate that heat into a smaller area which is a problem. A CPU with integrated graphics does make you wonder just how hot of a chip Apple can integrate into the machine.
As an example let's say the old chips where 30 watts for the CPU and 10 watts for the iGPU, does this mean the new notebooks will have 40 to 45 watt iCPUs in them? The power draw would be the same but thermal management much more difficult. Personally I think we will see Apple try to run the chips at a lower overall power level to keep thermals manageable in laptops.
5. the greatest speed gains will come when developers take full advantage of grand central, not when you buy a quad core
Well there is a mouthful. See you are right in a sense that truly leverage SL you need to use the new facilities in SL. Except for of course the stuff that Apple will have already optimized for. However one can not leverage parallism with out the SMP hardware available to truly run the threads at the same time. The exception here being OpenCL threads, but even here you need the hardware.
Dave
The current leakage, however, is higher. So the idle and sleep power are higher. With these chips that alter clocks and selectively shut down features to save power when not needed, the leakage matters.
Pure mental masturbation on your part. What matters is the average power drain and not what you said.
4. Larger aluminum enclosure has very little to do with heat dissipation because there's no direct thermal connection between heatsink and case. Warm case doesn't result in significant cooling
Nonsense ..pure nonsense.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
Nonsense ..pure nonsense.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
Of course the aluminum enclosure will be superior to plastic for heat dissipation. But the difference between 15 and 17 inch is marginal at best.
Thanks for the insight everyone!
I'm currently still using my trusty and very reliable Powerbook G4 circa late 2003, and it's on it's last legs. Not only will SL not be supported but the G4 can barely keep up with most web media (flash) etc.
So it's time to upgrade, but I did not want to do so right before there was likely to be a major shift in hardware in Apple's laptops. While the quad core power would be nice, I value the portability since I don't need much more than an above average user.
Thanks again, I'll be taking a hard look at the MBP's once SL is released...
You've been using a G4 for so long that any MBP will seem like a major upgrade, because it is. Quad core won't be of much help for a while unless you're doing something that's computationally heavy. Something I haven't seen pointed out here is that you'll get a major GHz drop to get quad core. Last I recall, the fastest mobile dual core is just above 3GHz, the fastest mobile quad core is around 2GHz. On a quad core, any task that can't be broken down to multiple cores will run slower, and in order to run faster than the dual core, you'll need to fully use at least three cores.
Nonsense ..pure nonsense.
Anyone can see the effects of Aluminum and heat transfer by looking at any good set of cookware or looking at the design of Class A amps (large and dense aluminum fins). Aluminum is excellent for conductivity and as long as you have some heat transfer from the CPU to the case it does its intended purpose.
I'm doing custom watercooled PC's for several years and I know what I'm talking about.
MBP's case isn't connected to heatsink and it doesn't play any big role in cooling.
You not being able to understand that doesn't make it "nonsense ..pure nonsense".
I'm doing custom watercooled PC's for several years and I know what I'm talking about.
MBP's case isn't connected to heatsink and it doesn't play any big role in cooling.
You not being able to understand that doesn't make it "nonsense ..pure nonsense".
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
The case IS the heatsink you dum dum... what do you think happens when heat is conducted by a metal exposed to cool air with convective currents?
Go back to highschool.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
The case IS the heatsink you dum dum... what do you think happens when heat is conducted by a metal exposed to cool air with convective currents?
Go back to highschool.
Are you serious? We are talking about 20-40W of heat to dissipate mainly using copper heatsink, not by insignificant airflow between case and heatpipe/copper plate.
Chip - Plate - Heatpipe - Air - Case chain has much higher thermal resistance than any kind of air cooled radiator.