Apple restricting 3G VoIP, not AT&T...

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 75
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    I have to disagree about this as I use Skype via my iPhone (tethered to my MBP as my operators could not care less and encourages mobile data usage) and we even use VIDEO. Maybe the networks are better here in Finland but I have virtually no trouble at all with VoIP calls. Pat Phelan is wrong in my opinion. It appears the Finns planned their networks the right way.



    Finland is a country of 130,000 square mile and 5 million people. That's a million fewer people than Dallas in a country half the size of Texas.



    I have no doubt that Finland's cell services are really great, but repeatedly using that as a point of comparison to what's happening in America makes no sense whatsoever.
  • Reply 22 of 75
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Put an add in the news paper and see if an "average" Finnish user will bother to answer your questions.



    Sorry the network you are on is poor while the one I use seems to work fine. You sit there and complain about your poor quality while I will continue on making my VoIP calls with Skype.



    You could get a 100 or a 1000 or maybe even all 5.4 million of them to say that VoIP is okay but you would search and search until you got one to agree with you to "prove" your point. Here, I will make you happy. You are correct. VoIP is terrible. It should be banished from the english lexicon. Death to VoIP because TenoBell does not think it is adequate based on HIS standards.



    I will tell my boss in DC that we have to use landlines from now on. Oh wait, the Finns removed all the landlines in our building and everyone is using mobile phones, and VoIP to communicate. Better go tell them to stop.



    Please let me know when you deem VoIP adequate for us to use. I'll wait patiently for your approval.



    That's a whole army of strawmen you've constructed!



    Nobody was making claims about your personal experience. Instead, the comments were specifically about the spectrum of service typically experienced.
  • Reply 23 of 75
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Finland is a country of 130,000 square mile and 5 million people. That's a million fewer people than Dallas in a country half the size of Texas.



    I have no doubt that Finland's cell services are really great, but repeatedly using that as a point of comparison to what's happening in America makes no sense whatsoever.



    Also there is the fact the Finnish government (along with the Swedish government) owns the incumbant landline/wireless carrier and that they are trying to showcase Nokia as Finland's high tech industry.
  • Reply 24 of 75
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Has Skype managed to get up and running on the N97 yet, it was one of the things Nokia was hyping up about it, in February last year?



    Skype seems to be very slow at developing things.



    In the meantime there's Fring, which enables you to receive Skype video calls on an iPhone, via wifi of course.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Put an add in the news paper and see if an "average" Finnish user will bother to answer your questions.



    Sorry the network you are on is poor while the one I use seems to work fine. You sit there and complain about your poor quality while I will continue on making my VoIP calls with Skype.



    You could get a 100 or a 1000 or maybe even all 5.4 million of them to say that VoIP is okay but you would search and search until you got one to agree with you to "prove" your point. Here, I will make you happy. You are correct. VoIP is terrible. It should be banished from the english lexicon. Death to VoIP because TenoBell does not think it is adequate based on HIS standards.



    I will tell my boss in DC that we have to use landlines from now on. Oh wait, the Finns removed all the landlines in our building and everyone is using mobile phones, and VoIP to communicate. Better go tell them to stop.



    Please let me know when you deem VoIP adequate for us to use. I'll wait patiently for your approval.



  • Reply 25 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Finland is a country of 130,000 square mile and 5 million people. That's a million fewer people than Dallas in a country half the size of Texas.



    I have no doubt that Finland's cell services are really great, but repeatedly using that as a point of comparison to what's happening in America makes no sense whatsoever.



    So are you saying there is no proportionality to the design and construction of the network? If you are such an expert on Finland, you also know that most of the people live in the cities which is where the networks were first built out and expanded into the more rural areas. The key being, the Finns never put all of their telecommunications eggs into the landline basket. They invested heavily into phones and network infrastructure. The fact that I can carry out a Skype video call over 3G is a testament to proper planning. AT&T got tons of money for the iPhone and did the tap dance about network build out but they are in virtually the same position as last year with the same complaints. So, yeah, I think my comparisons are spot on. If you are happy paying for sucky service more power to you.
  • Reply 26 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    That's a whole army of strawmen you've constructed!



    Nobody was making claims about your personal experience. Instead, the comments were specifically about the spectrum of service typically experienced.



    I was addressing a specific part of TenoBell's post in reply to mine. Go back and read his again, then come back and annoy me.
  • Reply 27 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Has Skype managed to get up and running on the N97 yet, it was one of the things Nokia was hyping up about it, in February last year?



    Skype seems to be very slow at developing things.



    In the meantime there's Fring, which enables you to receive Skype video calls on an iPhone, via wifi of course.



    "Rumors" have it that Skype has been ready for the N97 but Nokia has not implemented it. Nokia on the other hand says that Skype is the issue. If you can find out please post it. As for the N97, it was a dog on launch. My friends wife works there and internally everyone knew that it was launched too quickly. The firmware that went out the door was ACTUAL beta software. It was not a production version. Then Mac users had to wait 6 months for them to finally make an iSync Plugin for it. I had one for exactly 10 days, and took it back.



    The N97 Mini is a bit better, while the N900 is okay. I use an iPhone as my daily phone with a Nokia of some sort (currently the N86) as backup and to run JoikuSpot when I need a quick wifi access point.
  • Reply 28 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I didn't say VOiP was terrible. My point is that at this point most people would not find it a good enough alternative to completely replace the mobile carriers voice calling.



    TenoBell,



    my point being that I can only speak from my daily usage of Skype. It is 08:16 in cold and frigid Espoo, and I am about to make another Skype Vid call to my friend in Cali. Works every time. Not once from this location has it failed. I did get dropouts and a bad connect in downtown Helsinki a few days ago. I just disconnected, and reconnected and it seemed to have fixed the problem. One thing I will add is that I have what they call: "TehoPlus" on my data service. It is sort of like a guarantee of bandwidth. All iPhone users that sign up get it. So normally I get anywhere from 2.9 mb/s to 3.2 mb/s. This seems to be plenty for Skype.
  • Reply 29 of 75
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    One thing I will add is that I have what they call: "TehoPlus" on my data service. It is sort of like a guarantee of bandwidth. All iPhone users that sign up get it. So normally I get anywhere from 2.9 mb/s to 3.2 mb/s. This seems to be plenty for Skype.



    VoIP is all about latency, not topline speed. Only the most recent ev-do rev A and HSDPA have the latency required for VoIP, BUT doing VoIP-over-3G is still very inefficient (spectrum wise) --- that's why Verizon hasn't deployed VoIP-over-evdorA.



    And Sonera doesn't guarantee bandwidth with teho plus. With regular service, they crippled your hsdpa speed down to 1 mbps. With teho plus, you get the actual 3.6 mbps hsdpa.



    http://www.sonera.fi/Puhelin+ja+liit...n%20kysytty%E4



    American carriers don't give you a HSDPA device and then cripples your speed so that you have to pay for faster service.
  • Reply 30 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    VoIP is all about latency, not topline speed. Only the most recent ev-do rev A and HSDPA have the latency required for VoIP, BUT doing VoIP-over-3G is still very inefficient (spectrum wise) --- that's why Verizon hasn't deployed VoIP-over-evdorA.



    And Sonera doesn't guarantee bandwidth with teho plus. With regular service, they crippled your hsdpa speed down to 1 mbps. With teho plus, you get the actual 3.6 mbps hsdpa.



    http://www.sonera.fi/Puhelin+ja+liit...n%20kysytty%E4



    American carriers don't give you a HSDPA device and then cripples your speed so that you have to pay for faster service.



    Just realized you are on my ignore list.



    Anyway, with TehoPlus I am getting more bandwidth than someone without it. I know this for sure as I have tested it. I have an iPhone with TehoPlus and my Nokia N86 with just a regular data plan. There are big differences in the data connection speeds, so I think someone is making a mistake by giving me higher bandwidth speeds with TehoPlus. However, after using Google Translate (probably you as well unless you read Finnish) the first two paragraphs of your link say:



    "General

    What is the Data Power?

    Data Power transmission is an additional service, which the user can improve the 3G data transfer the maximum speed. The service is based on the 3G network, HSPA (High Speed Packet Access) technology. Technology and devices, development of data transmission speeds of the 3G network will increase gradually in the coming years.



    What kind of power is suitable for use Data?

    Data Teholla maximum data transfer speed and increase the data transfer delay is reduced. This allows plenty of data transfer using the service and application availability is improving, and applications required real-time 3G network is better. Efficacy data can be used such as Internet browsing, e-mail, download attachments, large files, music, songs, or download software updates as well as video games and other entertainment applications. "




    To further follow up, I called Sonera Corporate Customer service and they said that TehoPlus is sort of like a guarantee of better bandwidth service by providing access to full bandwidth. Not sure what to make of this considering you said it was not a guarantee of better service. Quandry. Who to believe? Sonera and my own eyes or someone that possibly used Google Translate which provides an adequate but not always accurate translation?



    Anyway, it does not matter. I get 3.6, and pay only ?9.90 (www.oanda.com) a month for unlimited data.
  • Reply 31 of 75
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Has Skype managed to get up and running on the N97 yet, it was one of the things Nokia was hyping up about it, in February last year?



    Skype seems to be very slow at developing things.



    You haven't actually done much software development have you? Your statement certainly seems to say as much. Sometimes implementation takes time. It isn't just a matter of saying 'abracadabra, presto magic, I now have my project done'.



    Just look at the features that Apple left out until last year (CnP, Tethering, Voice Control, full stereo Blutetooth, System wide search). Just because it takes some time, doesn't make them 'slow at developing thing'.



    Just because Nokia was hyping it does not mean it was of the same priority for Skype.



    And of course, none of that has anything in the world to do with Apple still not approving apps that allow VOIP over 3G.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    In the meantime there's Fring, which enables you to receive Skype video calls on an iPhone, via wifi of course.



    Which of course, is totally unrelated to the topic at hand (yes, I know it was mentioned in the post you were replying to).
  • Reply 32 of 75
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Is the "holdup" due to Apple or Skype?



    I have shown that they are slow porting from Symbian S60v3 to Symbian S60v5.



    Fring allows video calls via Skype using VOIP which works on the iPhone, while the Skype App itself does not.



    As the "complaint" comes from a worker at Skype, could there be something wrong with the company?



    It was a partnership between Skype and Nokia, they were both involved in the hype.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post


    You haven't actually done much software development have you? Your statement certainly seems to say as much. Sometimes implementation takes time. It isn't just a matter of saying 'abracadabra, presto magic, I now have my project done'.



    Just look at the features that Apple left out until last year (CnP, Tethering, Voice Control, full stereo Blutetooth, System wide search). Just because it takes some time, doesn't make them 'slow at developing thing'.



    Just because Nokia was hyping it does not mean it was of the same priority for Skype.



    And of course, none of that has anything in the world to do with Apple still not approving apps that allow VOIP over 3G.





    Which of course, is totally unrelated to the topic at hand (yes, I know it was mentioned in the post you were replying to).



  • Reply 33 of 75
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Is the "holdup" due to Apple or Skype?



    I have shown that they are slow porting from Symbian S60v3 to Symbian S60v5.



    Fring allows video calls via Skype using VOIP which works on the iPhone, while the Skype App itself does not.



    As the "complaint" comes from a worker at Skype, could there be something wrong with the company?



    It was a partnership between Skype and Nokia, they were both involved in the hype.



    If the hold up for Skype on 3G on the iPhone due to Apple or Skype? You are really asking that? Other than a few optimizations for 3G, all that would be required for Skype to work over 3G on the iPhone is for them to remove the check for 3G (or absence of wifi) in their code. That's it. Done. Resubmit as an update to Apple and it is good to go. Similarly, when Sling needed to get approval, they simply added a check for 3G to determine if they were allowed to run. Skype also simply checks if the iPhone is on 3G and if so it is used as a kill switch. if it runs over wifi, it will run on 3G...that's the beauty of being abstracted from the network...unless of course you are required to check for network type and disable conditionally. Undoing that intentional and artificial handicap is trivial.



    Skype on another platform...that is a port. Porting to another platform, as you may not be aware, is sometimes fairly involved. Much more, often, than simply pulling out a single conditional line of code.



    Quote:

    Fring allows video calls via Skype using VOIP which works on the iPhone, while the Skype App itself does not.



    Which again, has NOTHING to do with whether Skype will work over 3G on the iPhone. I am sure fring does other things that the Skype app does not. Really, what is the point of repeating this...? (really, almost as inane as repeatedly stating that Google is a discriminatory company because they are in beta and only in the US)
  • Reply 34 of 75
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    What does having to manage Google Voice using the web instead of a native iPhone App for people who live in the US, have to do with the situation with Skype touting vapourware almost a year ago and being too inept to update from one version of Symbian S60 to the next?



    Incidentally Google Voice applications are only available to people who live in the US with Blackberry and Android phones.



    Where is the outcry from Symbian, Winmo ond other OS users who also have to administer Google voice via the web?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post


    (really, almost as inane as repeatedly stating that Google is a discriminatory company because they are in beta and only in the US)



  • Reply 35 of 75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    What does having to manage Google Voice using the web instead of a native iPhone App for people who live in the US, have to do with the situation with Skype touting vapourware almost a year ago and being too inept to update from one version of Symbian S60 to the next?



    Incidentally Google Voice applications are only available to people who live in the US with Blackberry and Android phones.



    Where is the outcry from Symbian, Winmo ond other OS users who also have to administer Google voice via the web?



    Well, for the most part, outside of the N97, Skype has not really been needed as many to most non-US operators are not afraid of VoIP. I use Fring on my Nokia in a 3G environment. Google Voice is just another app. Skype is only vaporware in regards to the N97. Continuing to cling to this one point makes the rest of your arguments lose their value. Skype never has to deliver an app for the N97 and there would still be VoIP over 3G for it.
  • Reply 36 of 75
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    What does having to manage Google Voice using the web instead of a native iPhone App for people who live in the US, have to do with the situation with Skype touting vapourware almost a year ago and being too inept to update from one version of Symbian S60 to the next?



    Nothing. That whistling you hear is the point missing you.



    It is funny how some people call it vaporware when it isn't from Apple...but if Apple is late, it an necessary addition of time.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Incidentally Google Voice applications are only available to people who live in the US with Blackberry and Android phones.



    Where is the outcry from Symbian, Winmo ond other OS users who also have to administer Google voice via the web?



    Probably quietly waiting for google to release the app....they are likely targeting the growth platforms, like the iPhone. Of course if google were to release it and the MS or Nokia or another OS owner blocked it, you might hear an outcry...again, you point seems to have gone shooting right on by.



    I really have yet to see any thing you have posted in this thread actually contribute to the thread. From nit-picking that someone left of '3G' when they mentioned Skype not being on the iPhone (when the thread title and the article he linked dealt only with that limitation), to taking a massive unrelated tangent to bash Skype and Nokia...



    Somehow you think if you hate anything none Apple and trash talk anything non-Apple it lessens the short comings. Face some facts: AT&T has said they will allow VOIP on 3G. Skype has VOIP app on the iPhone that has a kill switch when on 3G. Apple alone holds the key to allowing VOIP on 3G. Cry all you want about Nokia and RIM and whom ever else you want to uselessly bring up, but it doesn't change the basic facts.



    Amusingly enough, if Apple clearly said they would allow VOIP on 3G if only AT&T allowed it and AT&T publicly said no, I have no doubt you wouldn't being trying to derail the discussion...if it isn't criticizing Apple, it is Okeedokey.
  • Reply 37 of 75
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Sorry Skype is the most wonderful company on earth, they can do no wrong as with Nokia, I was wrong to criticise these noble companies of such high ideals of human perfection.



    May Thor and a thousand Norse gods strike me dead where I stand for my transgressions and blasphemous ideas.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post


    Nothing. That whistling you hear is the point missing you.



    It is funny how some people call it vaporware when it isn't from Apple...but if Apple is late, it an necessary addition of time.





    Probably quietly waiting for google to release the app....they are likely targeting the growth platforms, like the iPhone. Of course if google were to release it and the MS or Nokia or another OS owner blocked it, you might hear an outcry...again, you point seems to have gone shooting right on by.



    I really have yet to see any thing you have posted in this thread actually contribute to the thread. From nit-picking that someone left of '3G' when they mentioned Skype not being on the iPhone (when the thread title and the article he linked dealt only with that limitation), to taking a massive unrelated tangent to bash Skype and Nokia...



    Somehow you think if you hate anything none Apple and trash talk anything non-Apple it lessens the short comings. Face some facts: AT&T has said they will allow VOIP on 3G. Skype has VOIP app on the iPhone that has a kill switch when on 3G. Apple alone holds the key to allowing VOIP on 3G. Cry all you want about Nokia and RIM and whom ever else you want to uselessly bring up, but it doesn't change the basic facts.



    Amusingly enough, if Apple clearly said they would allow VOIP on 3G if only AT&T allowed it and AT&T publicly said no, I have no doubt you wouldn't being trying to derail the discussion...if it isn't criticizing Apple, it is Okeedokey.



  • Reply 38 of 75
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Well, for the most part, outside of the N97, Skype has not really been needed as many to most non-US operators are not afraid of VoIP. I use Fring on my Nokia in a 3G environment. Google Voice is just another app. Skype is only vaporware in regards to the N97. Continuing to cling to this one point makes the rest of your arguments lose their value. Skype never has to deliver an app for the N97 and there would still be VoIP over 3G for it.



    Ironic that he basically never has an actual point to make. Aside from trying to belittle or tangentially criticize anything that seems be 'against' Apple or trying to project/deflect criticisms of Apple in the most pointless directions, there is usually very little of value or substance. As far as this thread goes, the fact the Skype is 'late', while subjective and stated from a position ignorant of the facts, is his only argument. Difficult for something with no value to lose value....try as he might.
  • Reply 39 of 75
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Anyway, with TehoPlus I am getting more bandwidth than someone without it. I know this for sure as I have tested it. I have an iPhone with TehoPlus and my Nokia N86 with just a regular data plan. There are big differences in the data connection speeds, so I think someone is making a mistake by giving me higher bandwidth speeds with TehoPlus. However, after using Google Translate (probably you as well unless you read Finnish) the first two paragraphs of your link say:



    To further follow up, I called Sonera Corporate Customer service and they said that TehoPlus is sort of like a guarantee of better bandwidth service by providing access to full bandwidth. Not sure what to make of this considering you said it was not a guarantee of better service. Quandry. Who to believe? Sonera and my own eyes or someone that possibly used Google Translate which provides an adequate but not always accurate translation?



    Anyway, it does not matter. I get 3.6, and pay only €9.90 (www.oanda.com) a month for unlimited data.



    "Sort of like" from a customer service staff means nothing.



    Go and take a look at AT&T's website and it will tell you that a 3.6 mbps HSDPA has a max download speed of 3.6 mbps and AT&T tells you that you will have an average download speed of 700-1700 kbps. Notice that the Finnish translation talks about MAX theoretical speed with the premium teho plus service that you can never achieve in real life. And without the teho plus service, the Finnish website specifically tells you that your HSDPA phone will be crippled to 1 mbps max theoretical download speed. American carriers are more honest about it (because of class action lawsuits) that both AT&T and VZW will give you the average real life download speed of their 3G network.



    It does matter --- because all you talk about is how cheap your Finnish service is and how fast it is. How cheap? You have to get the iphone data service from an MVNO in Finland. Which means that all your talk about how much more expensive Americans paid is garbage because you are comparing brand name carrier service in USA vs. MVNO service in Finland. How fast? It is the same network as AT&T's 3.6 mbps service --- only that American carriers don't cripple their speed on the basic subscribers in order to force them to pay for the higher priced uncrippled speed.
  • Reply 40 of 75
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    The issue is not restricted to the N97, the 5800 (and variants), Samsung 8910i, SonyEricsson Satio are also affected.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Well, for the most part, outside of the N97, Skype has not really been needed as many to most non-US operators are not afraid of VoIP. I use Fring on my Nokia in a 3G environment. Google Voice is just another app. Skype is only vaporware in regards to the N97. Continuing to cling to this one point makes the rest of your arguments lose their value. Skype never has to deliver an app for the N97 and there would still be VoIP over 3G for it.



    Why shouldn't I discuss other issues regarding Skype as the opening post contains a link to someone complaining about Skype, which you seem to think is perfect and beyond reproach, has Apple given a response to this blog?



    You blindly accept the word of a Skype blogger and criticise me personally for bringing up area's where it can be demonstrated that Skype has shortcomings.



    Play the ball, not the man.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post


    Ironic that he basically never has an actual point to make. Aside from trying to belittle or tangentially criticize anything that seems be 'against' Apple or trying to project/deflect criticisms of Apple in the most pointless directions, there is usually very little of value or substance. As far as this thread goes, the fact the Skype is 'late', while subjective and stated from a position ignorant of the facts, is his only argument. Difficult for something with no value to lose value....try as he might.



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