Apple restricting 3G VoIP, not AT&T...

Posted:
in iPhone edited January 2014
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  • hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    http://www.iClarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=7187



    It's a blog that references 9 to 5 Mac:



    http://www.9to5mac.com/iPhone-skype-...ntelligence%29



    Just because Apple won't allow a Skype app on the iPhone doesn't mean it's Apple behind the decision. Wouldn't the good folks at 9 to 5 Mac at least have considered the possibility that it was AT&T that has forbidden the Skype app from appearing?
  • tulkastulkas Posts: 3,691member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    It's a blog that references 9 to 5 Mac:



    http://www.9to5mac.com/iPhone-skype-...ntelligence%29



    Just because Apple won't allow a Skype app on the iPhone doesn't mean it's Apple behind the decision. Wouldn't the good folks at 9 to 5 Mac at least have considered the possibility that it was AT&T that has forbidden the Skype app from appearing?



    Except that AT&T has said they will allow it. They would look like pretty foolish and obvious liars if they were to then tell Apple it isn't allowed.





    Most likely and most reasonably, is that Apple is delaying allowing it in order to implement a method for carrier to enable and disable the functionality....on individual accts and across the board. Just because AT&T allows VOIP now doesn't mean their other carrier partners will allow it. Basically the same reasoning behind not putting tethering in the OS until recently....some carrier would allow it and some would

    not. All expect Apple to deliver a method

    to control it.



    So, while Apple may have nothing against apps using VOIP on 3g, they might still not allow it to apease their carriers...for now.
  • hill60hill60 Posts: 6,965member
    What are you talking about, Skype has been on the iPhone for ages.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    Just because Apple won't allow a Skype app on the iPhone...



  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    What are you talking about, Skype has been on the iPhone for ages.



    The issue is allowing Skype to work over 3G, not just WiFi.
  • hill60hill60 Posts: 6,965member
    Did you read what I was replying to?



    "Just because Apple won't allow a Skype app on the iPhone..."



    "...that it was AT&T that has forbidden the Skype app from appearing?"



    The Skype App is allowed on the iPhone, it is not forbidden.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    The issue is allowing Skype to work over 3G, not just WiFi.



  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Did you read what I was replying to?



    "Just because Apple won't allow a Skype app on the iPhone..."



    "...that it was AT&T that has forbidden the Skype app from appearing?"



    The Skype App is allowed on the iPhone, it is not forbidden.



    You're right, Hudson1 seems to have misunderstood that, not you. Sorry.
  • sapporobabyrtrnssapporobabyrtrns Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    You're right, Hudson1 seems to have misunderstood that, not you. Sorry.



    Agreed. Skype is allowed but not over 3G. I am currently in Finland where the operators encourage mobile data usage to include VoIP. If I need to make a Skype or Fring call, I use my Nokia to place the call directly, or I turn on JoikuSpot on my Nokia and trick my iPhone into thinking that it is connected via wifi. Apple needs to fix this.
  • hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    You're right, Hudson1 seems to have misunderstood that, not you. Sorry.



    Sorry, I should have said "Skype 3G" or something like that. Maybe I just assumed everyone knew we were only talking about 3G.





    edit: Regardless, my point wasn't about 3G and WiFi but about lame journalism. 9 to 5 Mac threw out a conclusion without:



    a) Telling us why they think it's right.

    and

    b) Offering other plausible explanations.
  • tulkastulkas Posts: 3,691member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Agreed. Skype is allowed but not over 3G. I am currently in Finland where the operators encourage mobile data usage to include VoIP. If I need to make a Skype or Fring call, I use my Nokia to place the call directly, or I turn on JoikuSpot on my Nokia and trick my iPhone into thinking that it is connected via wifi. Apple needs to fix this.



    This is an example of why Apple has not yet allowed VOIP over 3G. My carrier in Canada expressly forbids VOIP over 3G. If Apple were to simply allow devs to release apps with this functionality, users that have not read their carrier ToS might then assume it was ok to run these apps over 3G and incur large fees and penalties. I disagree with carriers limiting how we use our data, but the fact is that they do. Apple has to be very careful in how the allow 3G VOIP.



    Again, this is very similar to why the waited to allow tethering. Some carriers wanted it, some didn't and others wanted to be able to switch it on and off per user, in some cases for an extra fee. Until they had a method to allow this level of control, tethering was not available. The same considerations have to be had for 3G VOIP.



    The major difference is that tethering is handled by the OS, so app developers aren't really responsible for updating their apps...it is Apple that provides the functionality. Whereas VOIP is completely implemented by the app developers. Apple can allow or deny the VOIP functionality through rules and policies, but unless the wanted to provide the only approved VOIP API for devs to use on the iPhone, I am not sure how they could conditionally restrict implementation of third party VOIP code; to allow the same level of control to the carriers that they provided for tethering.





    My preferred solution would be to just flip the policy switch and allow all VOIP apps. AT&T has already said they will allow them and they are Apple's biggest carrier partner. They could perhaps require app developer to make enabling VOIP over 3G a setting that is off by default and must be turned on explicitly by the user with a clear and bold warning that if their carrier prohibits VOIP over 3G they will be liable for large fees and possible acct termination.
  • sapporobabyrtrnssapporobabyrtrns Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post


    This is an example of why Apple has not yet allowed VOIP over 3G. My carrier in Canada expressly forbids VOIP over 3G. If Apple were to simply allow devs to release apps with this functionality, users that have not read their carrier ToS might then assume it was ok to run these apps over 3G and incur large fees and penalties. I disagree with carriers limiting how we use our data, but the fact is that they do. Apple has to be very careful in how the allow 3G VOIP.



    Again, this is very similar to why the waited to allow tethering. Some carriers wanted it, some didn't and others wanted to be able to switch it on and off per user, in some cases for an extra fee. Until they had a method to allow this level of control, tethering was not available. The same considerations have to be had for 3G VOIP.



    The major difference is that tethering is handled by the OS, so app developers aren't really responsible for updating their apps...it is Apple that provides the functionality. Whereas VOIP is completely implemented by the app developers. Apple can allow or deny the VOIP functionality through rules and policies, but unless the wanted to provide the only approved VOIP API for devs to use on the iPhone, I am not sure how they could conditionally restrict implementation of third party VOIP code; to allow the same level of control to the carriers that they provided for tethering.





    My preferred solution would be to just flip the policy switch and allow all VOIP apps. AT&T has already said they will allow them and they are Apple's biggest carrier partner. They could perhaps require app developer to make enabling VOIP over 3G a setting that is off by default and must be turned on explicitly by the user with a clear and bold warning that if their carrier prohibits VOIP over 3G they will be liable for large fees and possible acct termination.



    Could not agree with you more. Sonera says that they have no problems at all with tethering or with VoIP calls. Apple needs a way to address this issue for those of us that can use all the features that an operator offers.
  • tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Although it is technically possible to offer VoIP calling over 3G on devices such as the Android, the relatively low bandwidth of 3G compared to Wi-Fi means that those calls are very often of a poor quality.



    Pat Phelan, founder of Cubic Telecom, is of the same opinion and he offers an explanation as to why VoIP over 3G is a bad idea ? at least for now:

    Voice over 3G needs massive compression.
    3G speeds aren?t good enough for voice.
    Latency, as measured by excessive ping times, makes it virtually impossible to have a decent conversation.




    The iPhone & the Lack of Voice Over 3G: Alternative Theory
  • tulkastulkas Posts: 3,691member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Although it is technically possible to offer VoIP calling over 3G on devices such as the Android, the relatively low bandwidth of 3G compared to Wi-Fi means that those calls are very often of a poor quality.



    Pat Phelan, founder of Cubic Telecom, is of the same opinion and he offers an explanation as to why VoIP over 3G is a bad idea ? at least for now:

    Voice over 3G needs massive compression.
    3G speeds aren?t good enough for voice.
    Latency, as measured by excessive ping times, makes it virtually impossible to have a decent conversation.




    The iPhone & the Lack of Voice Over 3G: Alternative Theory



    That all makes sense as an explanation as to why Apple (or AT&T) has not released a first party VOIP solution. Apple would not want to offer VOIP until it is useable in their opinion. But it doesn't, in anyway, explain why they would continue to block 3rd party VOIP apps.
  • sapporobabyrtrnssapporobabyrtrns Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Although it is technically possible to offer VoIP calling over 3G on devices such as the Android, the relatively low bandwidth of 3G compared to Wi-Fi means that those calls are very often of a poor quality.



    Pat Phelan, founder of Cubic Telecom, is of the same opinion and he offers an explanation as to why VoIP over 3G is a bad idea ? at least for now:

    Voice over 3G needs massive compression.
    3G speeds aren?t good enough for voice.
    Latency, as measured by excessive ping times, makes it virtually impossible to have a decent conversation.




    The iPhone & the Lack of Voice Over 3G: Alternative Theory



    I have to disagree about this as I use Skype via my iPhone (tethered to my MBP as my operators could not care less and encourages mobile data usage) and we even use VIDEO. Maybe the networks are better here in Finland but I have virtually no trouble at all with VoIP calls. Pat Phelan is wrong in my opinion. It appears the Finns planned their networks the right way.
  • tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    I've used Skype on WiFi. The same rules apply, the voice quality can be effected by diminished signal strength and latency. There are a lot of variables that can effect the quality of the signal and bandwidth quality.



    I don't see how Finnish engineering is so good that it can get around the laws of physics.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    I have to disagree about this as I use Skype via my iPhone (tethered to my MBP as my operators could not care less and encourages mobile data usage) and we even use VIDEO. Maybe the networks are better here in Finland but I have virtually no trouble at all with VoIP calls. Pat Phelan is wrong in my opinion. It appears the Finns planned their networks the right way.



  • sapporobabyrtrnssapporobabyrtrns Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I've used Skype on WiFi. The same rules apply, the voice quality can be effected by diminished signal strength and latency. There are a lot of variables that can effect the quality of the signal and bandwidth quality.



    I don't see how Finnish engineering is so good that it can get around the laws of physics.



    I am talking about practical, everyday use. Daily conversations. Do I get dropped packets sometimes? Of course. At no time did I say it was 100% flawless, but it is surely not as bad as Phelan has deemed it out to be. No where near. If US operators are not up to the task, and it appears so from the way he writes, then that's too bad. My Skype vid calls work almost all of the time. It is what it is.
  • dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    http://www.iClarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=7187



    If I read the article correctly...



    A blogger is angry that an App hasn't been approved. He makes unsubstantiated claims (which may or may not be true) about business contracts between two parties other than himself. Those claims are sent to a Mac rumors website and then that website is cited by another website. Talk about the telephone game!



    The only thing for sure is that none of us, including the blogger, likely has any clue as to what kind of deal Apple and AT&T may or may not have cut. This article (and the article it is based on) is not evidence one way or the other.



    Apple is probably the most effective party to target and pressure in order to see the situation changed. But I've yet to see any indication that the title of this thread is anything more than conjecture.
  • tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    I would like to hear the story from an average Finnish mobile phone user. I bet they would find that voip is not yet seamless and convenient enough to use on a regular basis.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    I am talking about practical, everyday use. Daily conversations. Do I get dropped packets sometimes? Of course. At no time did I say it was 100% flawless, but it is surely not as bad as Phelan has deemed it out to be. No where near. If US operators are not up to the task, and it appears so from the way he writes, then that's too bad. My Skype vid calls work almost all of the time. It is what it is.



  • sapporobabyrtrnssapporobabyrtrns Posts: 824member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I would like to hear the story from an average Finnish mobile phone user. I bet they would find that voip is not yet seamless and convenient enough to use on a regular basis.



    Put an add in the news paper and see if an "average" Finnish user will bother to answer your questions.



    Sorry the network you are on is poor while the one I use seems to work fine. You sit there and complain about your poor quality while I will continue on making my VoIP calls with Skype.



    You could get a 100 or a 1000 or maybe even all 5.4 million of them to say that VoIP is okay but you would search and search until you got one to agree with you to "prove" your point. Here, I will make you happy. You are correct. VoIP is terrible. It should be banished from the english lexicon. Death to VoIP because TenoBell does not think it is adequate based on HIS standards.



    I will tell my boss in DC that we have to use landlines from now on. Oh wait, the Finns removed all the landlines in our building and everyone is using mobile phones, and VoIP to communicate. Better go tell them to stop.



    Please let me know when you deem VoIP adequate for us to use. I'll wait patiently for your approval.
  • tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    I didn't say VOiP was terrible. My point is that at this point most people would not find it a good enough alternative to completely replace the mobile carriers voice calling.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post




    You could get a 100 or a 1000 or maybe even all 5.4 million of them to say that VoIP is okay but you would search and search until you got one to agree with you to "prove" your point. Here, I will make you happy. You are correct. VoIP is terrible. It should be banished from the english lexicon. Death to VoIP because TenoBell does not think it is adequate based on HIS standards.



    Please let me know when you deem VoIP adequate for us to use. I'll wait patiently for your approval.



  • samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post


    Put an add in the news paper and see if an "average" Finnish user will bother to answer your questions.



    Sorry the network you are on is poor while the one I use seems to work fine. You sit there and complain about your poor quality while I will continue on making my VoIP calls with Skype.



    You could get a 100 or a 1000 or maybe even all 5.4 million of them to say that VoIP is okay but you would search and search until you got one to agree with you to "prove" your point. Here, I will make you happy. You are correct. VoIP is terrible. It should be banished from the english lexicon. Death to VoIP because TenoBell does not think it is adequate based on HIS standards.



    I will tell my boss in DC that we have to use landlines from now on. Oh wait, the Finns removed all the landlines in our building and everyone is using mobile phones, and VoIP to communicate. Better go tell them to stop.



    Please let me know when you deem VoIP adequate for us to use. I'll wait patiently for your approval.



    It really depends on how much do you talk in a month and how expensive is the real telecom solution.



    VoIP providers like Vonage lost in the US because landline/cable voip is not that much more expensive. American cell phone users don't pay extra calling mobile-to-mobile nationwide and you can get unlimited voice fairly cheap.



    It really shows that the Finnish government owning a big chunk of their incumbant landline/wireless carrier --- is ruining their market.



    When the real thing is only marginally more expensive than the fake VoIP stuff, Americans are going to pay for the real stuff.
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