This is indeed a serious problem, and I can certainly appreciate Apple's desire to avoid getting scammed into doing repairs when people have actually abused devices. After all, the warranty and APP are like an insurance plan in that the expected costs to Apple are spread out across buyers as price to cover Apple's costs. So fraudulent claims end up costing Apple money, which probably ends up costing the rest of us money.
The audio on / off switch recently broke on my phone. When I took it in for repairs, the first thing the guy did was look at the moisture sensors and said they could not repair it under warrenty! Now I guess someone could have dropped their phone in the bath and then broke it to try get around their warrenty but I thought it a little odd. He was nice enough though to check the warrenty and I was past the one year mark so I didn't push it but my phone has never been dropped in water so not sure what set the sensors off. I think at a minimum they should open the phone and check the internal sensors as well before denying a claim that could be valid.
Well I doubt many people keep their phones in a deep freeze when switched off.
Now another flaw in their "experiment" is that the phone was NOT packaged as shipped i.e. it was not shrink wrapped, sealed in a zero humidity box with a silicon gel dehumidifiers.
The normal transportation of iPhones does not involve storing them at -11C, removing them from their packaging (including the shrink wrap), leaving them at room temperature for 24 hours, rewrapping and repeating.
It is an example of a poorly designed experiment to get the result you want, having to repeat it three times before they could get a result shows how well the indicators work.
Sudden temperature changes were causing this issue in cold store worker's phones, years before the iPhone was around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Other phones are a) irrelevant and b) would not serve as controls in this test (for example, they might not use the same LCI technology). The issue I see with the test is that they had the iPhone in a sealed chamber, apparently sealed inside, then took it outside in that chamber and then brought it back. One could argue that this sealed chamber is an artificial environment that one would not encounter in actual usage.
The one point in the operating specs that seems not straightforward is the word 'noncondensing'. What exactly do they mean by this? Fog? Conditions such as going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment? It's also a bit of a tricky ground. There's an implied warranty of "fitness for purpose" and although they can include language in the express warranty to limit or attempt negate that, they don't have complete free reign, unless they specifically disclaim all fitness for purpose. If you live in Florida, a place the iPhone is sold, going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment is normal use, in which case a customer would rightly have an expectation that the iPhone (or any phone) was fit for that purpose.
I think it would help a lot if we had available a technical description of how the LCI work, which would tell us a lot about what can trigger them and the likelihood of false internal positives. This particular lawsuit was inevitable if these were ever used to deny warranty coverage and, if nothing else, I expect a lot more information on the technology and reliability of LCI to come out as a result.
At 60%+ humidity the phone isn't guaranteed to work. So if the indicator triggers because of that (60%+ humidity) then Apple doesn't haven't to replace it, as they say it won't work in those cases.
Around here, the humidity goes up to 100%+ every single night all summer. The dew on the grass is a dead giveaway.
And so, it would seem that your point is that Apple need not honor the warranty due to environmental condition which occur on a daily basis for just about every customer.
Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie
Around here, the humidity goes up to 100%+ every single night all summer. The dew on the grass is a dead giveaway.
And so, it would seem that your point is that Apple need not honor the warranty due to environmental condition which occur on a daily basis for just about every customer.
Out of curiosity, why is a phone sitting in a bathroom during a hot shower anyway? Does the person intend to answer a call if the phone rings? Won't that get it wet? Can we not be away from our electronics for ten minutes? And think of the damage to the house if there's so much humidity in the bathroom that it "might" trip a sensor. I'd be checking that place for mould and mildew. ;?)
Many people like to use their iPhone for music and internet radio. The shower is a good spot in which to listen to the morning news.
The bathroom routinely goes to 100% RH, even with the fan running. There is no reason to think that such conditions cause mold and mildew outside the bathroom. But if you look at many bathroom ceilings, there is minor mildew. Go figure.
The audio on / off switch recently broke on my phone. When I took it in for repairs, the first thing the guy did was look at the moisture sensors and said they could not repair it under warrenty! Now I guess someone could have dropped their phone in the bath and then broke it to try get around their warrenty but I thought it a little odd. He was nice enough though to check the warrenty and I was past the one year mark so I didn't push it but my phone has never been dropped in water so not sure what set the sensors off. I think at a minimum they should open the phone and check the internal sensors as well before denying a claim that could be valid.
This is an interesting issue. I'm not at all sure what the law says in this regard, but my feeling is that a manufacturer ought not (and ought not be allowed to) deny coverage for a specific warranty claim based on an unrelated circumstance. I think part of the problem here is that Apple doesn't really repair iPhones, just seems to replace them (Or do they? So far I haven't needed to test this). So, it's not like they just fix the switch, they issue a whole new phone.
Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?
When I leave the screen doors open, sometimes moisture will condense inside the house, depending on temperature and humidity levels. It is very common for basements to be damp due to
Dew forms when the warm moist air cools down enough so that it can no longer hold as much moisture. There is no need to be on the lawn.
And it is not unheard of to reach the dew point in the evening, while sitting around a barbecue with the phone on the picnic table.
And not only that, but finished basements are often damp due to condensation. They continuously suck moist air in through the windows which forms "dew" on all the surfaces, especially the walls. In such common cases, humidity levels are 100% RH.
I took my new iPhone3Gs back because the GPS was flaky. Sure enough, the genius checked for those indicators.
I'll be interested in seeing how this turns out. I'd like to think the indicators are reliable, as Apple certainly has a right to protect itself from having to reimburse for abused products. I've had my phone colorized, so my warranty is kaput anyway
"LSIs are not triggered by high humidity, however, if that water vapor is allowed to condense then any water that condenses on the LSI will trigger it. Keeping a cellphone in a humid car overnight is enough to trigger one or more LSIs. A cellphone in your pocket might suffer the same fate."
The "More details on the immersion sensors of Apple" article points out "The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple." and then ends with "Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M."
So there are OTHER known ways other than submersion to trigger a LSI and 3M itself admits it. In fact the name 3M gives these things is "Water Contact Indicator Tape"--contact NOT submersion.
Apple may not be on as firm legal ground as it thinks.
Besides, look at the "test" which required THREE attempts to get the result they wanted.
" So, they placed the iPhone IN ITS ENCLOSURE 1 hour outside at -11° C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red!"
Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F (0° to 35° C)
Non operating temperature: -4° to 113° F (-20° to 45° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% non condensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)
For anyone studying science, this is a very good example of how NOT to design an experiment.
You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.
Nope. If you treat customers with legitimate complaints badly, you lose business.
Quote:
I would like someone to test this indicator in a bathroom after a long hot shower.
I've done it many times. I've never activated the headphone sensor, even though I've had to wipe condensation off the iPhone.
It wouldn't upset me much if I did activate the sensor and/or trashed my phone. I'm looking for an excuse to upgrade, and my wife wouldn't be able to complain.
Water will not hurt electronics... as long as the power is off. It's only when a wet circuit board has power applied can the water cause a short circuit. If any electronics get wet, turn the power off immediately and dry the object completely. Then apply power. If it comes in contact with salt water, turn it off and immerse the object in clean water to remove the salt, then dry completely.
Manufacturers clean their boards with water. In fact, I know of some who use regular dish washing machines. I also clean old, dirty circuit boards with water and alcohol after removing them from the equipment.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of users will lie through their teeth to get free repairs on something they caused damage to. They'll stare at you with cow eyes and swear on their mother's grave they didn't drop the thing in the toilet, really. I don't like the idea of paying even more for my Apple products because of unethical users. As Lex Luthor (Gene Hackman) once said to Superman, "People are no damned good."
The flip side to this is even 3M who makes these things acknowledges that they can be triggered without immersion.
Worst for Apple 3m put forth guidelines for storage of these things before installation: no more than 27°C with humidity not exceeding 40 to 60% and used with in 18 month of manufacture.
Water will not hurt electronics... as long as the power is off. It's only when a wet circuit board has power applied can the water cause a short circuit. If any electronics get wet, turn the power off immediately and dry the object completely. Then apply power. If it comes in contact with salt water, turn it off and immerse the object in clean water to remove the salt, then dry completely.
One big difference with the iPhone is that the user cannot immediately remove the battery, which is SOP when a typical phone gets wet.
Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.
The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.
Quote: However, the filing maintains that "in actuality and contrary to what Apple represents to its customers, Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon to establish with any reasonable degree of certainty that a Class Device has even been exposed (much less damaged by) liquid."
It goes on to claim that independent testing "has demonstrated that Liquid Submersion Indicators can be triggered by, among other things, cold weather and humidity that are within Apple's technical specifications for the Class Devices." endQuote:
None of the comments I have read so far deal with the allegations in the Complaint, particularly those cited above. Federal and State rules of Civil Procedure require that allegations be truthful. Assuming that the quoted language is accurate, how does the Plaintiff 'know' that, "Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon. . . " She will try to elicit that information during discovery. As they say in Italian, 'Lottsa Luck.'
More substantively, has this Plaintiff actually conducted tests that can demonstrate the faults alleged? I think not. To be relevant, independent tests would have to have been conducted on the particular sensors that Apple uses and Apple would have had to have known that they speced faulty devices. Not likely given the cost and time necessary to be scientifically meaningful.
Despite what some of the posters may have experienced, this is just another example of lawyers trying to make some money without regard to the rules of evidence or ethics. I suggest that Judges have to start getting tougher with when ruling on evidence and hearing motions.
While I am happy to support this law suit, knowing full well these false positives do happen, I have personally had a differant experience when it comes to this topic.
I will say one thing before hand for one of the other posters who sounds more like an arrogant poser, that being a DICK, will get you nowhere. However, trying another tactic may very well get you another phone.
Last year sometime before the 3Gs came out, I had a pretty bad cold, fever, hot & cold sweats, in bed for a few days and under the influence of a a plethora of cold medications etc.
I woke up at some point drenched in sweat, changed and threw everything into the washer.
I forgot my phone was in the pajama pocket.
Talk about immersion, well, I would say for several cycles. When I realized what had happened obviously was too late. When I retrieved the phone, well, I thought I was screwed. I knew at the time they did not have this new policy in force and it was going to cost me $500.00 to replace, which was not exactly in the budget at the time, but I had to get a phone and sent my dear wife off to ATT to get a replacement. They gave you something off but it was a fortune, and I did not have square trade!
Anyway, I tried to dry the phone, blow dryer, radiator, it seemed totally gone, nothing, no power, no sign of life, dead. I thought I'm going to have to eat this one for sure.
Then about a week or so passed and for whatever reason I turned it on, and to my utter astonishment, it began to power up, screen came on, there were still signs of some dampness under the screen but it was coming alive.
I used the blow dryer some more, the dampness eventually disappeared, and the phone miraculously appeared to be working. I tried WIFI, working, swapped out SIm cards, working, tried several programs, all working. I couldn't believe it.
Now I had two phones. Sometime after that I decided to see if I could get a replacement, just in case there was some internal damage that might affect it down the line. I called in stating that I was having really bad reception, got an RMA, send it in, and then got this email about the immersion indicators going off and that the phone did not qualify for replacement because these indicators had gone off. I had not heard of these before, and thought, well, this is a pretty good trick Apple has come up with to protect themselves against these kinds of claims but how can they be absolutely certain that it was in fact from a total immersion and not from say sweat, or temperature differentials, how can they really be certain.
And the answer is they can't and they know it.
And they will deny your warranty,
unless,
you appeal the decision, and make a concerted effort to debate until proverbial cows come home this with this higher level supervisor, and that you present a hands down Oscar winning performance convincing this person that there has been a grievous error in your case, and that your phone has never been anywhere near a liquid substance. They will usually send you a replacement if you put in that much effort. No guarantees, in this but using a logical insistent, polite, and firm attitude will get you so much further than being an obstinate angry fool.
In my case obviously I stretched the truth a tad, yeah, so what!
After speaking to the highest level supervisor who had the authority to override the decision I did get a replacement phone after sending in a phone that was working but whose immersion indicators had all been obviously tripped.
Don't give up, be persistent, find that person at Apple who is going to help you out of the ifx your in, but don't be a jerk, that will get you nowhere, and fast.
None of the comments I have read so far deal with the allegations in the Complaint, particularly those cited above. Federal and State rules of Civil Procedure require that allegations be truthful. Assuming that the quoted language is accurate, how does the Plaintiff 'know' that, "Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon. . . " She will try to elicit that information during discovery. As they say in Italian, 'Lottsa Luck.'
More substantively, has this Plaintiff actually conducted tests that can demonstrate the faults alleged? I think not. To be relevant, independent tests would have to have been conducted on the particular sensors that Apple uses and Apple would have had to have known that they speced faulty devices. Not likely given the cost and time necessary to be scientifically meaningful.
Despite what some of the posters may have experienced, this is just another example of lawyers trying to make some money without regard to the rules of evidence or ethics. I suggest that Judges have to start getting tougher with when ruling on evidence and hearing motions.
Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.
As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.
Here's some news for you man. Your phone came in contact with liquid and you are too weak to admit to: A) Your own faults Your lack of perception C) The fact that your phone is not perfectly within eye sight every second of every day and D) That your anger will get you absolutely nowhere at the genius bar as you try to blame it on someone whom you claim is "Trying to take advantage of you."
You can make claims all you want about people who sell computers, but I guarantee you do not know any more than any genius who has worked there for more than a few months. They take these things apart every day repeatedly. Something your arrogance might try to find a fleeting argument against, but will still fail. Plus, if you are taking your phone apart and tampering with it, why would they replace it for you? If you break a connector yourself, why should Apple pay for that? Hell, you're such a pro at taking it apart, why not fix it yourself? Because you can't do it in a cost effective manner while maintaining factory build quality. Might as well get the genius bar swap for $199.
There are 4 sensors on the phone. One red sensor does not automatically disqualify your device from repair. 2 does. They can open your phone and look inside, if it's still wet or internal sensors are tripped, sorry. Take better care of your stuff. If you get splashed and don't notice 1 sensor, ok. If 2 sensors are set off, your phone was wet and if you didn't notice, then it's your fault and you deserve a $199 price tag. We all know liquid and electronics don't mix. Corrosion grows on parts and breaks them. Your fault. I take long, hot showers with my iPhone on the counter every day and my sensors are white as snow.
So take your phone into an Apple store and be a dick. I hope they are dicks right back to you. Get the police in there too, then you can get arrested, spend the night in jail while your car gets towed from the parking lot and then you'll be out a lot more money than your repair would have cost to begin with and you'll still have a liquid damaged phone.
This talk of "I know it never got wet," is what you get when an arrogant person makes the assumption that their own perception of reality precedes everyone else's ability to discern facts.
Grow up.
I must applaud you friend, very well said. I work in retail and what it comes down to always and every day is attitude. I have gone out of my way and bent the rules many times for customers simply because they were nice and reasonable and polite. Too many people walk around acting like the world owes them something, i dont care if you pay monthly service, i dont care how much you spent on this item, nothing gives you the right to treat another person in a rude, degrading negative manor unless they met you with the same treatment first. I have been on both sides of the customer service counter and i have found that being nice, polite, understanding and patient go a very long way. In the end when someone says to you, im sorry there is nothing i can do for you, it really means "i probably could have helped you, possibly bent a rule here or there to make things happen for you, but youre a rude inconsiderate jerk, have a nice day."
Now more on topic, i have had my fair share of dealings with Liquid damage indicators and to be honest most people dont really understand how they work. when people think about liquid damage they think dunked in water. but there are many types of situations in which your phone can be exposed to liquid without you even being aware. Moisture, rain, humidity, condensation, steam, etc. To put it in a way one could understand, if you took your dvd player out in the rain would you expect it to work? better yet would you expect the manufacturer to cover your replacement? absolutely not.
Now i must say that at times i have found them too sensitive. I have touched one with my finger by accident and the simple oils on my hand triggered the LDI. however a phone is a piece of electronic equipment, and just as we keep our TVs, dvd players, stereos and other devices away from moisture and liquids, the same type of care should be applied to a phone. Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.
Comments
This is indeed a serious problem, and I can certainly appreciate Apple's desire to avoid getting scammed into doing repairs when people have actually abused devices. After all, the warranty and APP are like an insurance plan in that the expected costs to Apple are spread out across buyers as price to cover Apple's costs. So fraudulent claims end up costing Apple money, which probably ends up costing the rest of us money.
The audio on / off switch recently broke on my phone. When I took it in for repairs, the first thing the guy did was look at the moisture sensors and said they could not repair it under warrenty! Now I guess someone could have dropped their phone in the bath and then broke it to try get around their warrenty but I thought it a little odd. He was nice enough though to check the warrenty and I was past the one year mark so I didn't push it but my phone has never been dropped in water so not sure what set the sensors off. I think at a minimum they should open the phone and check the internal sensors as well before denying a claim that could be valid.
Now another flaw in their "experiment" is that the phone was NOT packaged as shipped i.e. it was not shrink wrapped, sealed in a zero humidity box with a silicon gel dehumidifiers.
The normal transportation of iPhones does not involve storing them at -11C, removing them from their packaging (including the shrink wrap), leaving them at room temperature for 24 hours, rewrapping and repeating.
It is an example of a poorly designed experiment to get the result you want, having to repeat it three times before they could get a result shows how well the indicators work.
Sudden temperature changes were causing this issue in cold store worker's phones, years before the iPhone was around.
Other phones are a) irrelevant and b) would not serve as controls in this test (for example, they might not use the same LCI technology). The issue I see with the test is that they had the iPhone in a sealed chamber, apparently sealed inside, then took it outside in that chamber and then brought it back. One could argue that this sealed chamber is an artificial environment that one would not encounter in actual usage.
The one point in the operating specs that seems not straightforward is the word 'noncondensing'. What exactly do they mean by this? Fog? Conditions such as going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment? It's also a bit of a tricky ground. There's an implied warranty of "fitness for purpose" and although they can include language in the express warranty to limit or attempt negate that, they don't have complete free reign, unless they specifically disclaim all fitness for purpose. If you live in Florida, a place the iPhone is sold, going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment is normal use, in which case a customer would rightly have an expectation that the iPhone (or any phone) was fit for that purpose.
I think it would help a lot if we had available a technical description of how the LCI work, which would tell us a lot about what can trigger them and the likelihood of false internal positives. This particular lawsuit was inevitable if these were ever used to deny warranty coverage and, if nothing else, I expect a lot more information on the technology and reliability of LCI to come out as a result.
At 60%+ humidity the phone isn't guaranteed to work. So if the indicator triggers because of that (60%+ humidity) then Apple doesn't haven't to replace it, as they say it won't work in those cases.
Around here, the humidity goes up to 100%+ every single night all summer. The dew on the grass is a dead giveaway.
And so, it would seem that your point is that Apple need not honor the warranty due to environmental condition which occur on a daily basis for just about every customer.
I think that you are incorrect.
Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?
Around here, the humidity goes up to 100%+ every single night all summer. The dew on the grass is a dead giveaway.
And so, it would seem that your point is that Apple need not honor the warranty due to environmental condition which occur on a daily basis for just about every customer.
I think that you are incorrect.
Out of curiosity, why is a phone sitting in a bathroom during a hot shower anyway? Does the person intend to answer a call if the phone rings? Won't that get it wet? Can we not be away from our electronics for ten minutes? And think of the damage to the house if there's so much humidity in the bathroom that it "might" trip a sensor. I'd be checking that place for mould and mildew. ;?)
Many people like to use their iPhone for music and internet radio. The shower is a good spot in which to listen to the morning news.
The bathroom routinely goes to 100% RH, even with the fan running. There is no reason to think that such conditions cause mold and mildew outside the bathroom. But if you look at many bathroom ceilings, there is minor mildew. Go figure.
The audio on / off switch recently broke on my phone. When I took it in for repairs, the first thing the guy did was look at the moisture sensors and said they could not repair it under warrenty! Now I guess someone could have dropped their phone in the bath and then broke it to try get around their warrenty but I thought it a little odd. He was nice enough though to check the warrenty and I was past the one year mark so I didn't push it but my phone has never been dropped in water so not sure what set the sensors off. I think at a minimum they should open the phone and check the internal sensors as well before denying a claim that could be valid.
This is an interesting issue. I'm not at all sure what the law says in this regard, but my feeling is that a manufacturer ought not (and ought not be allowed to) deny coverage for a specific warranty claim based on an unrelated circumstance. I think part of the problem here is that Apple doesn't really repair iPhones, just seems to replace them (Or do they? So far I haven't needed to test this). So, it's not like they just fix the switch, they issue a whole new phone.
Do you get dew inside your house?
Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?
When I leave the screen doors open, sometimes moisture will condense inside the house, depending on temperature and humidity levels. It is very common for basements to be damp due to
Dew forms when the warm moist air cools down enough so that it can no longer hold as much moisture. There is no need to be on the lawn.
And it is not unheard of to reach the dew point in the evening, while sitting around a barbecue with the phone on the picnic table.
And not only that, but finished basements are often damp due to condensation. They continuously suck moist air in through the windows which forms "dew" on all the surfaces, especially the walls. In such common cases, humidity levels are 100% RH.
The lawn? C'mon. This is a serious discussion.
I took my new iPhone3Gs back because the GPS was flaky. Sure enough, the genius checked for those indicators.
I'll be interested in seeing how this turns out. I'd like to think the indicators are reliable, as Apple certainly has a right to protect itself from having to reimburse for abused products. I've had my phone colorized, so my warranty is kaput anyway
Well there were articles like "Mythbusting moisture-detecting stickers/liquid submersion indicators" March 17th, 2009 by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes:
"LSIs are not triggered by high humidity, however, if that water vapor is allowed to condense then any water that condenses on the LSI will trigger it. Keeping a cellphone in a humid car overnight is enough to trigger one or more LSIs. A cellphone in your pocket might suffer the same fate."
The "More details on the immersion sensors of Apple" article points out "The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple." and then ends with "Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M."
So there are OTHER known ways other than submersion to trigger a LSI and 3M itself admits it. In fact the name 3M gives these things is "Water Contact Indicator Tape"--contact NOT submersion.
Apple may not be on as firm legal ground as it thinks.
Besides, look at the "test" which required THREE attempts to get the result they wanted.
" So, they placed the iPhone IN ITS ENCLOSURE 1 hour outside at -11° C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red!"
Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F (0° to 35° C)
Non operating temperature: -4° to 113° F (-20° to 45° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% non condensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)
For anyone studying science, this is a very good example of how NOT to design an experiment.
You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.
Deny warranty repairs = bigger profits.
Nope. If you treat customers with legitimate complaints badly, you lose business.
I would like someone to test this indicator in a bathroom after a long hot shower.
I've done it many times. I've never activated the headphone sensor, even though I've had to wipe condensation off the iPhone.
It wouldn't upset me much if I did activate the sensor and/or trashed my phone. I'm looking for an excuse to upgrade, and my wife wouldn't be able to complain.
Manufacturers clean their boards with water. In fact, I know of some who use regular dish washing machines. I also clean old, dirty circuit boards with water and alcohol after removing them from the equipment.
Your mileage may vary.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of users will lie through their teeth to get free repairs on something they caused damage to. They'll stare at you with cow eyes and swear on their mother's grave they didn't drop the thing in the toilet, really. I don't like the idea of paying even more for my Apple products because of unethical users. As Lex Luthor (Gene Hackman) once said to Superman, "People are no damned good."
The flip side to this is even 3M who makes these things acknowledges that they can be triggered without immersion.
Worst for Apple 3m put forth guidelines for storage of these things before installation: no more than 27°C with humidity not exceeding 40 to 60% and used with in 18 month of manufacture.
And not only that, but finished basements are often damp due to condensation.
Apple specs are less than 95% humidity, non-condensing.
Apple may not be on as firm legal ground as it thinks.
Especially if there is a jury trial. Lots of people have been screwed by big multinational corporations like Apple.
I expect this to settle out of court.
Water will not hurt electronics... as long as the power is off. It's only when a wet circuit board has power applied can the water cause a short circuit. If any electronics get wet, turn the power off immediately and dry the object completely. Then apply power. If it comes in contact with salt water, turn it off and immerse the object in clean water to remove the salt, then dry completely.
One big difference with the iPhone is that the user cannot immediately remove the battery, which is SOP when a typical phone gets wet.
No SOP = SOL, IMNSHO.
Apple specs are less than 95% humidity, non-condensing.
Moisture coming through a concrete basement floor and walls due to moist soil on the outside may be as much as 100 pints per day.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1204w.htm
Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle.../11311346.html
The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.
It goes on to claim that independent testing "has demonstrated that Liquid Submersion Indicators can be triggered by, among other things, cold weather and humidity that are within Apple's technical specifications for the Class Devices." endQuote:
None of the comments I have read so far deal with the allegations in the Complaint, particularly those cited above. Federal and State rules of Civil Procedure require that allegations be truthful. Assuming that the quoted language is accurate, how does the Plaintiff 'know' that, "Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon. . . " She will try to elicit that information during discovery. As they say in Italian, 'Lottsa Luck.'
More substantively, has this Plaintiff actually conducted tests that can demonstrate the faults alleged? I think not. To be relevant, independent tests would have to have been conducted on the particular sensors that Apple uses and Apple would have had to have known that they speced faulty devices. Not likely given the cost and time necessary to be scientifically meaningful.
Despite what some of the posters may have experienced, this is just another example of lawyers trying to make some money without regard to the rules of evidence or ethics. I suggest that Judges have to start getting tougher with when ruling on evidence and hearing motions.
I will say one thing before hand for one of the other posters who sounds more like an arrogant poser, that being a DICK, will get you nowhere. However, trying another tactic may very well get you another phone.
Last year sometime before the 3Gs came out, I had a pretty bad cold, fever, hot & cold sweats, in bed for a few days and under the influence of a a plethora of cold medications etc.
I woke up at some point drenched in sweat, changed and threw everything into the washer.
I forgot my phone was in the pajama pocket.
Talk about immersion, well, I would say for several cycles. When I realized what had happened obviously was too late. When I retrieved the phone, well, I thought I was screwed. I knew at the time they did not have this new policy in force and it was going to cost me $500.00 to replace, which was not exactly in the budget at the time, but I had to get a phone and sent my dear wife off to ATT to get a replacement. They gave you something off but it was a fortune, and I did not have square trade!
Anyway, I tried to dry the phone, blow dryer, radiator, it seemed totally gone, nothing, no power, no sign of life, dead. I thought I'm going to have to eat this one for sure.
Then about a week or so passed and for whatever reason I turned it on, and to my utter astonishment, it began to power up, screen came on, there were still signs of some dampness under the screen but it was coming alive.
I used the blow dryer some more, the dampness eventually disappeared, and the phone miraculously appeared to be working. I tried WIFI, working, swapped out SIm cards, working, tried several programs, all working. I couldn't believe it.
Now I had two phones. Sometime after that I decided to see if I could get a replacement, just in case there was some internal damage that might affect it down the line. I called in stating that I was having really bad reception, got an RMA, send it in, and then got this email about the immersion indicators going off and that the phone did not qualify for replacement because these indicators had gone off. I had not heard of these before, and thought, well, this is a pretty good trick Apple has come up with to protect themselves against these kinds of claims but how can they be absolutely certain that it was in fact from a total immersion and not from say sweat, or temperature differentials, how can they really be certain.
And the answer is they can't and they know it.
And they will deny your warranty,
unless,
you appeal the decision, and make a concerted effort to debate until proverbial cows come home this with this higher level supervisor, and that you present a hands down Oscar winning performance convincing this person that there has been a grievous error in your case, and that your phone has never been anywhere near a liquid substance. They will usually send you a replacement if you put in that much effort. No guarantees, in this but using a logical insistent, polite, and firm attitude will get you so much further than being an obstinate angry fool.
In my case obviously I stretched the truth a tad, yeah, so what!
After speaking to the highest level supervisor who had the authority to override the decision I did get a replacement phone after sending in a phone that was working but whose immersion indicators had all been obviously tripped.
Don't give up, be persistent, find that person at Apple who is going to help you out of the ifx your in, but don't be a jerk, that will get you nowhere, and fast.
None of the comments I have read so far deal with the allegations in the Complaint, particularly those cited above. Federal and State rules of Civil Procedure require that allegations be truthful. Assuming that the quoted language is accurate, how does the Plaintiff 'know' that, "Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon. . . " She will try to elicit that information during discovery. As they say in Italian, 'Lottsa Luck.'
More substantively, has this Plaintiff actually conducted tests that can demonstrate the faults alleged? I think not. To be relevant, independent tests would have to have been conducted on the particular sensors that Apple uses and Apple would have had to have known that they speced faulty devices. Not likely given the cost and time necessary to be scientifically meaningful.
Despite what some of the posters may have experienced, this is just another example of lawyers trying to make some money without regard to the rules of evidence or ethics. I suggest that Judges have to start getting tougher with when ruling on evidence and hearing motions.
Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.
As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.
Here's some news for you man. Your phone came in contact with liquid and you are too weak to admit to: A) Your own faults
You can make claims all you want about people who sell computers, but I guarantee you do not know any more than any genius who has worked there for more than a few months. They take these things apart every day repeatedly. Something your arrogance might try to find a fleeting argument against, but will still fail. Plus, if you are taking your phone apart and tampering with it, why would they replace it for you? If you break a connector yourself, why should Apple pay for that? Hell, you're such a pro at taking it apart, why not fix it yourself? Because you can't do it in a cost effective manner while maintaining factory build quality. Might as well get the genius bar swap for $199.
There are 4 sensors on the phone. One red sensor does not automatically disqualify your device from repair. 2 does. They can open your phone and look inside, if it's still wet or internal sensors are tripped, sorry. Take better care of your stuff. If you get splashed and don't notice 1 sensor, ok. If 2 sensors are set off, your phone was wet and if you didn't notice, then it's your fault and you deserve a $199 price tag. We all know liquid and electronics don't mix. Corrosion grows on parts and breaks them. Your fault. I take long, hot showers with my iPhone on the counter every day and my sensors are white as snow.
So take your phone into an Apple store and be a dick. I hope they are dicks right back to you. Get the police in there too, then you can get arrested, spend the night in jail while your car gets towed from the parking lot and then you'll be out a lot more money than your repair would have cost to begin with and you'll still have a liquid damaged phone.
This talk of "I know it never got wet," is what you get when an arrogant person makes the assumption that their own perception of reality precedes everyone else's ability to discern facts.
Grow up.
I must applaud you friend, very well said. I work in retail and what it comes down to always and every day is attitude. I have gone out of my way and bent the rules many times for customers simply because they were nice and reasonable and polite. Too many people walk around acting like the world owes them something, i dont care if you pay monthly service, i dont care how much you spent on this item, nothing gives you the right to treat another person in a rude, degrading negative manor unless they met you with the same treatment first. I have been on both sides of the customer service counter and i have found that being nice, polite, understanding and patient go a very long way. In the end when someone says to you, im sorry there is nothing i can do for you, it really means "i probably could have helped you, possibly bent a rule here or there to make things happen for you, but youre a rude inconsiderate jerk, have a nice day."
Now more on topic, i have had my fair share of dealings with Liquid damage indicators and to be honest most people dont really understand how they work. when people think about liquid damage they think dunked in water. but there are many types of situations in which your phone can be exposed to liquid without you even being aware. Moisture, rain, humidity, condensation, steam, etc. To put it in a way one could understand, if you took your dvd player out in the rain would you expect it to work? better yet would you expect the manufacturer to cover your replacement? absolutely not.
Now i must say that at times i have found them too sensitive. I have touched one with my finger by accident and the simple oils on my hand triggered the LDI. however a phone is a piece of electronic equipment, and just as we keep our TVs, dvd players, stereos and other devices away from moisture and liquids, the same type of care should be applied to a phone. Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.