Foxconn plans 20 percent wage increases as suicides continue

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Comments

  • stevetimstevetim Posts: 482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John.B View Post


    As long as China refuses to let the yuan float against the dollar, pound, and euro, they are subsidizing all manufacturing in China. No two ways about it.



    This is true, but on top of this, they used to give them a break on top of the currency devaluation. So they did the math, and they are coming back. I think it is great news.
  • tumme-tottetumme-totte Posts: 147member
    I've been to China to place production there, and we do for some type of production. Will soon go back for audit of our partners there.



    Moving production back state side (or elsewhere in the world at all) is not an option. It's that simple. The way chinese production is managed simply can't compare. And there is no way we can complain about quality either. They are simply very good at doing this and the general economy level allows for low wages as others has described. Wages may be low in Africa, but quality and stability is awful to take one example.



    What should be a concern for anyone is the way society there is organized. I don't know about suicide statistics, but part from that, these jobs are often considered good jobs, believe it or not. Being a farmer on the countryside is not as well paid and standard of living when you leave the east and south-east coast and move a couple of hours into China is very low. And be aware about numbers - China is a country with 1,4 billion(!!!) something citizens. Low percentage will give high counts.



    But as a worker in China you hardly dare question the situation at your job. One example: I guess all of you carry your own references and CVs to hand to anyone where you go for a job. Not in China. The employer holds the documents and hands it to the next employer. And it's not uncommon that good references simply are stolen. How do you choose a new job in this situation? If you are not satisfied or in conflict with your boss - how do you break free? There is hardly an option. And this is one of several examples.



    But that's politics. Apple should care for the workers at their subcontractors the best they can. That's a part of the brand which I trust! And my opinion is that Apple actually does a good job compared to many others having production in China. But they can't relax for a second!
  • lkrupplkrupp Posts: 4,362member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    Yes costs here would be the issue due to wages and medical etc. but a wholly owned Apple manufacturing facility just might be able to be cost effective especially (I hate to say) if it is robotic as far as possible.



    Steve has the $s to do this ... if he wanted to.



    Better automated in the USA than slave labor in China (where everything else is made not just Apple .. and few as well I might add).



    Imagine Apple products with 'Made in The USA' stamped on them again!



    Ok I will wake up now and stop dreaming \



    Yes you are definitely dreaming. If your scenario were to come to pass you MAY still have relatively cheap electronics to buy BUT there wouild be 400,000 Foxconn workers out of jobs, returned to the rice fields to eek out a starvation existence. Why do you think they came to the factory in the first place? Did they like the idea of living and working for low wages in a giant factory? No, it's because they were starving to death as rural peasants. And not many American workers would be needed in the fully automated plant you envision.



    Your (our) ethics and morals may be valid but the reality of the world is in stark contrast to those ethics and morals. It took over 1oo years of the industrial revolution to produce decent working conditions and wages in this country, including tens of thousands of deaths, labor riots, unionism, and legislation. More than a few would say that we've not made enough progress here either. Just look at the coal mining industry, the produce industry. Yet you (we) dream of just snapping our fingers and making it all go away?



    Please understand I'm just using your post as an example and not ragging on you personally. We all need to balance our feeling with reality. The Chinese people are the real ones who need to deal with this just like we did 100 years ago. Back then WE were the source of cheap labor for mass produced goods. WE were the ones who worked in sweat shops and breathed in asbestos fibers. WE lived in company towns. And WE committed suicide to escape our miserable existence
  • pondosinatrapondosinatra Posts: 464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post


    I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.



    Until people in the States (or North America for that matter) are willing to work for $1 a day, it'll never happen.
  • spotonspoton Posts: 645member
    The reason why Apple and many multi-national corporations are in China is because of China's projection to be the world's largest economy by 2050. Followed by the U.S., then India.



    The U.S. is going to be hobbled economy speaking for many years to pay off the $ 1.6 Trillion bailout of Congresses experiment in socialized sub-prime housing with Freddie and Fannie, as well as the smaller bailouts of banks, GM, AIG.



    Also it's looking like the U.S. is going to be bailing out the failed socialist leaning governments of Europe and perhaps Japan too.



    http://www.businessinsider.com/europe-debt-chart-2010-5



    With higher taxes, unions (UAW $75 a hour to put cars together!) and other obstacles, it makes perfect sense to have operations in China. The U.S. needs prices to deflate a lot more and China prices to inflate as to compete with the China workers making 56 cents a hour (plus 20% pay raise).



    Margaret Thatcher - "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money (to spend)"



    China has now dropped to #2 spot of foreign holders of U.S. debt, Japan (shaky as it is) is now #1 again.



    The only thing that can beat a Chinese worker right now is a automated factory running 24/7 and if you notice, more and more Apple devices are seemingly put together totally by machine. The iPad being the latest.
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,766member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post


    Yes you are definitely dreaming. If your scenario were to come to pass you MAY still have relatively cheap electronics to buy BUT there wouild be 400,000 Foxconn workers out of jobs, returned to the rice fields to eek out a starvation existence. Why do you think they came to the factory in the first place? Did they like the idea of living and working for low wages in a giant factory? No, it's because they were starving to death as rural peasants. And not many American workers would be needed in the fully automated plant you envision.



    Your (our) ethics and morals may be valid but the reality of the world is in stark contrast to those ethics and morals. It took over 1oo years of the industrial revolution to produce decent working conditions and wages in this country, including tens of thousands of deaths, labor riots, unionism, and legislation. More than a few would say that we've not made enough progress here either. Just look at the coal mining industry, the produce industry. Yet you (we) dream of just snapping our fingers and making it all go away?



    Please understand I'm just using your post as an example and not ragging on you personally. We all need to balance our feeling with reality. The Chinese people are the real ones who need to deal with this just like we did 100 years ago. Back then WE were the source of cheap labor for mass produced goods. WE were the ones who worked in sweat shops and breathed in asbestos fibers. WE lived in company towns. And WE committed suicide to escape our miserable existence



    Foxcom if happy to be in the new free enterprise world can seek new clients as we all do in the free market. I think your entire post is very misguided. You are essentially arguing Apple cannot change how it does business out of some moral requirement to employ foreign workers? That's a new one on me!
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post


    $131 per month compared to $1160 in the USA at minimum wage? Not gonna happen.



    Plus all the extra benefits and legal costs in the US. When you add in environmental and legal expenses, the difference could be twice that figure.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post


    MONEY IS NOT THE ANSWER AND WILL NOT STOP SUICIDES... FOXCONN needs a change in their working environment and stop running their shops like a military operation.



    EXACTLY. Foxconn employees are very well paid by China standards already. Giving them more money isn't going to change things. If they want to improve things, making life better for the employees would probably have more impact. Shorter hours, better working conditions, etc.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post


    Rather disgraceful it took 10 people to kill themselves to get a 20% raise, talk about greed!!



    The people didn't kill themselves to get a raise. Money is not likely to solve the problem. Furthermore, suicide happens in every culture in the world. The Foxconn suicide rate is roughly equal to the rate throughout the country, so it's not likely to be related to ANYTHING Foxconn has done.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevetim View Post


    It's got to be on their mind. Robotics are playing more and more a roll in mfg, so the labor costs of moving to usa would be less expensive. I know a company who is coming back from china because automation improvements and doing away with shipping container expenses and extra warehouseing that was needed. In his industry he told me it just became a wash. China is not subsidizing their particular industry anymore. Very interesting.



    In theory that is true. In practice, automation works best on huge volumes (many, many millions) of identical systems involving only a couple of assembly steps. The iPad and other iDevices are too complicated to be readily automated and even if they were able to do it, the finished machinery would be so specialized that it would have to be scrapped as soon as there was a design change.



    Automation works for making bolts or paperclips. It is not yet at the stage where it can easily assemble an entire electronic device.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by elroth View Post


    Actually it's 400,000 workers at Foxconn, and one story said the suicide rate at Foxconn is the same as the general population in China. That was before this last one, which probably raised the rate over the national average (unless 5,000 Chinese committed suicide in the last week)..



    Looks like someone needs to go back and read their statistics text book again. With something like a dozen suicides, a difference of one either way is not a significant difference.
  • frankiefrankie Posts: 326member
    (((I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.)))



    AGREED!!! Loose a few bucks and help the planet and this country! Be a leader and just do it.
  • frankiefrankie Posts: 326member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pondosinatra View Post


    Until people in the States (or North America for that matter) are willing to work for $1 a day, it'll never happen.



    I think the problem is not that typical Americans aren't willing to work for decent wages, it's that the freaking top guys aren't willing to work for less than $hundreds of millions.



    The CEOs of all of these Americans companies are freaking greedy SOBs that don't give a crap about America, suicides in China, or anything else. They only care about themselves...
  • latafairamlatafairam Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post


    I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.



    Are you nutz?

    You want to pay 10,000 for an iPhone?

    Unless they hire illegals in the US w/ no benefits etc.
  • swiftswift Posts: 436member
    Arise, ye prisoners of starvation

    Arise, ye wretched of the Earth

    The international ruling class

    Will raise your salary to avoid bad press
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,766member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frankie View Post


    (((I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.)))



    AGREED!!! Loose a few bucks and help the planet and this country! Be a leader and just do it.



    You said it!



    However, if SJ ever did this I seriously doubt he'd lose an bucks.
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,766member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by latafairam View Post


    Are you nutz?

    You want to pay 10,000 for an iPhone?

    Unless they hire illegals in the US w/ no benefits etc.



    You forget automation. This is 2010. But we are only speculating
  • swiftswift Posts: 436member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by latafairam View Post


    Are you nutz?

    You want to pay 10,000 for an iPhone?

    Unless they hire illegals in the US w/ no benefits etc.



    Actually, the input for salaries is a fraction of the cost.



    The truth is, the world's production giant of World War II would embarrass itself trying to compete with the people who have put up huge plants like this, the capital investment of making all the RAM, etc.--



    We decided to have Wall Street produce phony paper instead of Pittsburg producing steel. Now we see what happens when you go the way of the British empire.
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpotOn View Post


    The reason why Apple and many multi-national corporations are in China is because of China's projection to be the world's largest economy by 2050. Followed by the U.S., then India.



    That is nonsense. That explains why companies are setting up retail operations in China, but every company I've dealt with who moved their manufacturing to China (and I've dealt with dozens) has done so solely for cheap labor.



    If it were simply a matter of reaching the Chinese market, they could just as easily manufacture in the U.S. and ship there. We have so many containers coming into the US from China and so many containers going back empty that shipping costs from the US to China are insignificant.
  • spotonspoton Posts: 645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    In theory that is true. In practice, automation works best on huge volumes (many, many millions) of identical systems involving only a couple of assembly steps. The iPad and other iDevices are too complicated to be readily automated and even if they were able to do it, the finished machinery would be so specialized that it would have to be scrapped as soon as there was a design change.



    Automation works for making bolts or paperclips. It is not yet at the stage where it can easily assemble an entire electronic device.





    I'd say it's a lot more advanced than just making bolts or paperclips, just look at any car assembly plant. Most circuit boards are all machine made, it's too detailed and precise for manual labor.



    Apple's iPhones, iPods and iPads are certainly more machine assembled than Mac's for instance and Apple moves even closer to total automation assembly with each new product release.



    And true that no machine can make a device from scratch, it's really a object of blending the advantages of both (cheap) manual labor and automation, feeding the assembly machine basically.
  • hattighattig Posts: 798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post


    Well that'll be great but that also means you'll be paying double or triple for your gadgets. I'm not just talking Apple but others as well.



    That might make people stop and respect their gadgets and try to make them last longer, which is a very good thing overall. Disposable, low-life gadgetry isn't good. People would also be more picky about the gadgets they buy. I hear a lot of stuff about home goods in the past that would last decades. Now I wouldn't want to be stuck with my iBook for decades (indeed I've used it for five years, not so much in the past six months though), but five years isn't so bad rather than three.



    It might not add too much to a computer, where the component costs are higher, and the assembly costs a lower proportion of the total, but yeah, it could double the production cost of an iPhone, etc.



    However I think the current generation (me included) feels too entitled to new things, all the time, for cheap.
  • spotonspoton Posts: 645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    That is nonsense. That explains why companies are setting up retail operations in China, but every company I've dealt with who moved their manufacturing to China (and I've dealt with dozens) has done so solely for cheap labor.



    If it were simply a matter of reaching the Chinese market, they could just as easily manufacture in the U.S. and ship there. We have so many containers coming into the US from China and so many containers going back empty that shipping costs from the US to China are insignificant.





    The 'cheap labor in China' reasoning depends upon the concept that the U.S. will remain the worlds largest market, but that will change by 2050 and companies in China already will have the advantage of capitalizing on that market. That's why Apple is building Apple Stores in China, despite the fact that a lot of Chinese can't afford Apple products, they are setting the stage for later.



    http://www.businessinsider.com/gdp-chart-2050-2010-5



    Apple is relying upon the reseller iStore and their many locations for the India retail market. Likely they will be bought by Apple sometime in the future.



    http://www.indiaprwire.com/pressrele...9082732467.htm
  • mesomorphicmanmesomorphicman Posts: 549member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post


    Rather disgraceful it took 10 people to kill themselves to get a 20% raise, talk about greed!!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    The people didn't kill themselves to get a raise. Money is not likely to solve the problem. Furthermore, suicide happens in every culture in the world. The Foxconn suicide rate is roughly equal to the rate throughout the country, so it's not likely to be related to ANYTHING Foxconn has done.



    Thank you for only using the first sentence of my comment and ignoring everything else I typed to twist it to your own thought process and comments. Now I know how politicians and athletes feel when misquoted.



    To say the Foxconn suicide rate is the same as the rest of China and that clears Foxconn of any wrong doing I greatly disagree with. I don't know how many employees they have, but I'm going to guess-timate it's a few hundred or a couple thousand, to compare the suicide rate of maybe 1000-2000 employees to over 1 billion is not fair to me. If a city the size of Wichita has the same cancer or suicide rate of the entire U.S. to me that says there is something wrong in Wichita. Foxconn should not have the same rates as the country, it should be drastically lower if I'm asked. But you're obviously free to think what you want.
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,766member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    In theory that is true. In practice, automation works best on huge volumes (many, many millions) of identical systems involving only a couple of assembly steps. The iPad and other iDevices are too complicated to be readily automated and even if they were able to do it, the finished machinery would be so specialized that it would have to be scrapped as soon as there was a design change.



    Automation works for making bolts or paperclips. It is not yet at the stage where it can easily assemble an entire electronic device.



    Come on you know Apple would revolutionize the industry of automated manufacturing! What's more the robots would be gorgeous
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