Apple laying groundwork for TRIM support in future SSD-based Macs

Posted:
in Current Mac Hardware edited January 2014
Apple may be laying the foundation for TRIM support in future Macs, a technology that should allow their solid state flash drives to maintain optimal performance throughout the life span of the systems.



The Mac maker's most recent 13-inch MacBook Pros display an option for TRIM support in their system profilers on SSD-equipped models, one which isn't present in either the second-generation unibody 15-inch MacBook Pros or the latest refresh sporting Intel's Core i5 and Core i7 processors.



TRIM is essentially a command that lets operating systems like Mac OS X inform SSDs of which blocks of pre-written data are no longer in use, allowing them to be wiped clean internally.



This form of garbage collection overhead prevents the slowdown in future write operations on those data blocks that would otherwise result in unanticipated progressive performance degradation of write operations on the SSD over time.



It's believed that the new Nvidia GeForce 320M chipset inside the 13-inch MacBook Pros is responsible for supporting TRIM at some level. Earlier MacBook Pros employ a previous generation Nvidia chipset that lacks the same support, as does the Intel-based chipset in the most recently released Core i5 and Core i7 models.







That said, the current Core 2 Duo-based 13-inch MacBook Pros are likely among the last Macs to adopt a Nvidia chipset given that future models will employ Intel's latest chip offerings, for which the chipmaker has forbid Nvidia from supporting through its own hardware.



Update: One AppleInsider forum member notes that the same "TRIM Support: No" showed up on his Core 2, 17-Inch MacBook Pro after he updated the firmware on his SSD to version 2CV102HD.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 60
    bonklersbonklers Posts: 54member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    It's believed that the new Nvidia GeForce 320M chipset inside the 13-inch MacBook Pros is responsible for supporting TRIM at some level.



    windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.
  • Reply 2 of 60
    christophbchristophb Posts: 1,482member
    That same "TRIM Support: No" shows up on my Core 2, 17-Inch MacBook Pro. Happened when I update firmware on my SSD to a level that supported TRIM. I'd be a bit more than a little surprised (and upset) if TRIM support required a newer rev. of the AHCI.



    I did not get my Intel SSDSA2M160G2GN from Apple and I upgraded it to firmware version 2CV102HD.
  • Reply 3 of 60
    ghostface147ghostface147 Posts: 1,629member
    Wait....the worlds most advanced OS doesn't support this already?
  • Reply 4 of 60
    zoolookzoolook Posts: 657member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bonklers View Post


    windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.



    Agreed - I have a Corsair RealSSD 128GB in my 2006 MacBook. Windows 7 maintains the SSD with TRIM, OS X doesn't and by the looks of it, won't even in the future.
  • Reply 5 of 60
    I was about to say... TRIM support is driver based. It's up to Apple if they want to support it or if this is a planned obsolescence of older machines. I have a MacBook unibody, I've already upgraded the HDD to a 7,200 RPM one. On one hand I'd be disappointed if Apple doesn't support this feature, on the other I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.
  • Reply 6 of 60
    masternavmasternav Posts: 442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post


    Wait....the worlds most advanced OS doesn't support this already?



    ...on whether the file system itself was so configured and being relied upon to do the garbage clean-up and was found to not do as good a job as TRIM, or if lower level services were taking the place of TRIM functions. TRIM is a low-level stop-gap fix for data management in SSDs due to the way in which SSD manufacturers have set up how data is mapped (via pages/blocks) to the media. The problem I foresee is having different SSD manufacturers AND OS makers offering different TRIM solutions, instead of a robust universal standard. TRIM is far from a perfect solution in this case, data-mapping and maintenance on the SSD should be made more robust to begin with - but this is still new territory and the solutions are still being created.



  • Reply 7 of 60
    spotonspoton Posts: 645member
    I hope hard drives don't get removed in future Mac's just to advance the use of SSD with it's super high cost per GB.



    If that does occur, I would like to see at least two case flush, spring loaded,high capacity/speed SDXC ports.



    This way if the machine needs to be taken in for service, one can remove all their files very easily before some nosy tech does.
  • Reply 8 of 60
    exscapeexscape Posts: 27member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bonklers View Post


    windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.



    +1

    Let's just say I'll be annoyed if they *FINALLY* bring TRIM support and I still can't use it!
  • Reply 9 of 60
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    TRIM is nice, but I'd like for Apple to offer better SSD options in their machines. Hopefully they will once TRIM is in place. Anyone have and SSD and 10.6.4 to see if it's enabled yet?





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpotOn View Post


    I hope hard drives don't get removed in future Mac's just to advance the use of SSD with it's super high cost per GB.



    If that does occur, I would like to see at least two case flush, spring loaded,high capacity/speed SDXC ports.



    This way if the machine needs to be taken in for service, one can remove all their files very easily before some nosy tech does.



    Um, having an SSD or HDD doesn't alter one's ability to remove personal files or the drive. In fact, using an SSD would speed up any drive reading you would need for such a task.



    As for SSDs being the future, where have you been? They ARE the future. They keep increasing in capacity and the cost keeps coming down. While still pricer than HDDs you can now get more SSD capacity in the same space as a HDD platter. If you ignore height of the drive 2.5" HDDs can still hold more total capacity, but with each 50% increase even that limit is going away, as well as the price dropping per GB.



    As of the last MBP update the largest drive Apple offers for their notebooks are SSDs by 512GB. They also offer more SSD options than they do HDD options. We'll already getting to the threshold of weighing cost v. performance of SSDs which take it out from being just a geeky option to a real consideration among the average user. SSDs are coming and nothing can stop them.
  • Reply 10 of 60
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by exscape View Post


    +1

    Let's just say I'll be annoyed if they *FINALLY* bring TRIM support and I still can't use it!



    LOL You may be asking too much.
  • Reply 11 of 60
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 3,192member
    With the garbage collection built into later model drives/firmware, TRIM isn't necessary for great SSD performance in real-world usage.



    If you're waiting for TRIM support in Mac OS X before upgrading to SSD, you're wasting your time.
  • Reply 12 of 60
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.



    It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.







    Dave
  • Reply 13 of 60
    boeyc15boeyc15 Posts: 986member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.



    It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.







    Dave



    That may be true, but we still have to deal with whats here today.



    I'm no expert, but hasn't the memory management issue of SSD (and related memory) issue be around for years? Working with some aerospace avionic geeks, this is a issue(at least similar) that has to be worked on constantly in their hardware/software. To paraphrase a previous poster - what...it has not been addressed already?



    That said, not sure of the long term issue. In aerospace, they use boards for decades and run them 12 hours a day or more. Not sure how many hours a MBP will get that it may be a 'real' issue. Any one have any thoughts?
  • Reply 14 of 60
    christophbchristophb Posts: 1,482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    TRIM is nice, but I'd like for Apple to offer better SSD options in their machines. Hopefully they will once TRIM is in place. Anyone have and SSD and 10.6.4 to see if it's enabled yet?



    10.6.4, yes; TRIM support in OS, no.



    I had to use an Intel firmware update from a .iso boot image they supplied to upgrade my SSD to the latest firmware.
  • Reply 15 of 60
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post


    10.6.4, yes; TRIM support in OS, no.



    Ah, so it's unchanged since 10.6.3. Oh well.





    PS: How about Open GL support? In 10.6.3 they were at 95% (22/23) for OpenGL v3.0, 12% (1/8) for v3.1, 33% (3/9) for v3.2, and 0% for v3.3 or v4.0.
    BTW, thanks for the info.



    Quote:

    I had to use an Intel firmware update from a .iso boot image they supplied to upgrade my SSD to the latest firmware.



    For my Intel X-25 they have you burn a CD or use a floppy to boot into OpenDOS, I think it was, to check and run the update. I found that to be a bit of laugh having the most advanced drive use the most unsophisticated and old option to update it. Worked well, though, even though I had just removed my optical drive to put a HDD in it's place and had to find someone to give me a blank CD to burn.
  • Reply 16 of 60
    I sure hope apple decides to support TRIM, since most of the code is already in the OS. It would take them about 50 lines of code to fully support it. All I have to do then is to update my samsung SSD firmware somehow... This may be little off-topic but has anyone updated samsung SSD Firmware on a mac?
  • Reply 17 of 60
    christophbchristophb Posts: 1,482member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    PS: How about Open GL support?





    For my Intel X-25 they have you burn a CD or use a floppy to boot into OpenDOS, I think it was, to check and run the update. I found that to be a bit of laugh having the most advanced drive use the most unsophisticated and old option to update it. Worked well, though, even though I had just removed my optical drive to put a HDD in it's place and had to find someone to give me a blank CD to burn.



    I used the same upgrade method. I have the X-25, 160GB sitting in what was the home of my optical drive. I picked up a kit that included an external enclosure for the Superdrive.



    No change on OpenGL support.
  • Reply 18 of 60
    cvaldes1831cvaldes1831 Posts: 1,832member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.



    It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.



    This person and several others above are correct.



    SSD manufacturers should be implementing the garbage collection, not the operating system. TRIM isn't a universal standard, it's a hack.
  • Reply 19 of 60
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Omg. What's with this nonstop flood of OSX news.... Have we all forgotten Apple has a cellphone dept too???
  • Reply 20 of 60
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.



    Maybe you have a beef with your manufacturer, but my OWC Extreme SSD already handles the issue internally.



    Perhaps you just picked the wrong SSD



    Quote:

    It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.



    indeed. TRIM is an ugly hack. What is really needed is a clean drive interface that has none of the ATA baggage that has been drug forward from the first PC days



    If anyone has the sales volume and influence to do it, its Apple. Hopefully it's cooking away in their labs. Hard drives and file system performance are the slowest link in the computer chain by a wide margin. Here's to hoping for a native designed for flash filesystem that goes beyond ZFS.
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