Field testing is fine, it's a good thing to do. But, any RF Engineer knows that touching an antenna is NEVER a good thing - it introduces parasitical resistance (you can work with that) and a 10-40 pF capacitance (Very Bad). The capacitance issue is what will de-tune your antenna. This is why adding electical tape really has a minimal impact - you need distance between the antenna and your body - just a few millimeters is all it takes.
Apple opted for cosmetics over RF Antenna design. This is an intentional design flaw. A concesssion was made for function vs. pretty. It was a poor decision. You have probably seen the Diagnostics Toolbox in the earlier OS. Why was this removed? They had the software, and they intentionally removed it .... why?
Consider, for the first time ever ..... ever! Apple made an accessory for the iPhone, and what an amazing coincidence that the product doesn't work well without this accessory!! Why, it's almost beyond belief.
I suggest you tone down your statements a bit.
I realize that there is an information vacuum (which is quite common with Apple while they address issues), leaving lots of room for everybody to deliver their own assumptions. These range from anywhere from common sense to plain stupidity.
Your statements unfortunately rank in the latter category.
I have used iPhones since the day they came out and have a reasonable point of reference. In my observations, I definitely see that the iPhone 4 behaves differently than my other ones.
But I would describe the variation more as fluctuations; often the reception is much better than with my iPhone 3GS, but then also many times worse. Just less predictable.
I also see the proximity sensor not working quite right at times; at times, the speaker phone turns on or a single digit being dialed while I have the phone to my ear.
That said, I have no problems waiting for a firmware/software update which I believe will address many if not all issues...
You will soon find that your shiny new iPhone will drop calls in areas where there is not a tower around the corner. This is why it's a HARDWARE DEFECT.
So software could not be the problem?
It's a hardware issue if the hardware is actually the problem and it's a hardware defect if it cannot be solved with software.
If it can be fixed with software, then it is not a hardware defect.
I think the reason people aren't returning their iPhones just yet is:
1. It's still an amazing piece of tech (if held right). HD video camera, Facetime, Retina Display, blazing speed
2. People are still within their 30 days and they're waiting for some sort of fix or response from Apple.
3. It doesn't bother some people enough to return it. They just learn to hold it differently.
4. People in high signal areas will never know that something is wrong with their iPhone 4.
I returned mine and now I'm back to being happy again. I'm using my iPhone 3G on a go-phone plan from AT&T and I've got 2.2.1 firmware loaded on it. I couldn't be happier right now.
5. Most bits of tech kit have issues of one kind or the other. People are resourceful and find a way. Returning is a pain.
I don't yet own one but would a small bit of carefully cut tape fix the problem? Would some carefully applied nail varnish fix it? I hate cases of any sort but a piece of tape doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Yet another clueless analyst pontificating as if they knew exactly what the problem was. No one has yet to show that this supposed "antenna-bridging" is actually occuring; CR's tests have been shown to be as worthless as all the others done by people who don't have any clue about antenna design. Everything I've read from people that understand this stuff says that the antenna bridging is not an issue, and there's no clear-cut explanation for what's going on. As they point out, a simple measure of antenna attenuation is meaningless, unless you know how that number translates to the ability of the phone to provide a good connection. 5db of attenuation could kill a call on one phone, while 20db does nothing on another. It is not a straight-forward, global, linear measurement of how well a phone will handle a call.
Meanwhile, we have mass hysteria of dropped calls that may or may not have anything to do with actual reception, and many reports that the iPhone 4's reception is actually much improved over previous models. Until all this gets sorted out, nobody can predict exactly what, if anything, Apple will have to do to rectify what may, or may not, actually be a problem.
Seems like something that isn't a big deal, but why wouldn't you want it instead of not want it? It's a minor feature Apple decided the user didn't need.
Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.
It will be interesting to see if Apple delays the iPhone 4 release in international markets because of this problem. If they do, it may be a sign that the problem is bigger than Apple is letting on.
Your statement regarding re-tuning the receiver is flawed - I am unaware of a digitally tunable capacitor. Digitally controlled resistors, yup. But there just aren't digitally controlled energy storage media in a microchip format (inductors or capacitors). Thus, you 'tune' your receiver in hardware and use software filters to further re-fine the tuning - but if you detune the antenna system by adding a variable 10-40 pF (human) load - I don't see how Apple can overcome this in firmware.
"Digitally Tuned Capacitor
A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE? technology using UltraCMOS? process and HaRP? design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."
I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.
I got to thinking today... perhaps this whole mess actually is a software issue.
I read somewhere where someone suggested that maybe when you touch that part of the phone, it's actually making it MORE signal, not less, but the software screws up and makes the signal drop.
How hilarious would it be if Apple rolls out a software update that fixes the problem and reception is actually improved when you pick it up and have no more dropped calls.
If I recall correctly, Apple has been able to fix issues with their computers that a lot of people SWORE that it HAD TO BE HARDWARE with a software update. After all, software CONTROLS the hardware.
Am I right?
I'm not saying that this software update will solve the problem because I have just as much doubt as everyone else about it, but it would be interesting if they did in fact find something in the baseband that wasn't making the hardware act as it should.
I have a strong suspicion that you are right. I have a long history with Apple going back to 1978. If there is a choice between:
1) a hardware-only implementation
2) a software-only implementation
3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation
Apple will choose 2) a software-only implementation, initially. Over time they may evolve to 3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation.
Almost never, will Apple choose a 1) a hardware-only implementation.
The reasons for this are obvious:
-- they can fix problems (maybe even dropped calls)
-- they can add features
To illustrate, anecdotally:
Circa 1984-6, then Apple Employee Bill Atkinson, (MacPaint, HyperCard, etc.), was giving a demo of some graphics on the Mac (AIR, it was for software for a CCD camera).
Someone on the audience asked: Will Apple buy Amiga to get their graphics hardware?
Paraphrasing Bill's answer: "Why, we can do that in software!"
Consider that Apple is the oldest personal computer manufacturer still in existence; that they have released thousands of devices over the 34 years of their existence; that there have been very few product recalls (you could count the major ones on one hand).
I believe a lot of that is due to the way they integrate hardware and software-- so that fixes and enhancements can be made without changing the hardware!
Hey Braniac...you would have to be living under a rock not to have heard about the antenna issue and the iP4. It has had massive media coverage since DAY ONE.
You know how ridiculous this statement is: "People are lining up to buy the phone because many are unaware of this issue." So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?/ OMG that is comedy gold. Are you related to Bagdad Bob?
I along with many mainstream business and tech journals are ridiculing CR for their seemingly incongruous position.
Keep on banginig the drum...all you will end up with is a sore arm!
Enjoy your Droid!!!
The statement about living under a rock is completely ridiculous and it shows when it comes to reality, it's you who's living under a rock.
Take my mom for example. She's a perfect example actually. From the first time she saw a commercial for facetime, she's been talking about getting a family plan and iphones for everyone. When would she have been told about this issue if I didn't tell her?
You simply don't get it. You think the iphone sells in mass numbers to a ton of tech savy geeks!?
BTW, when someone lines up to BUY a product, how are they going to know how the product works? "So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?" No, that's what you're saying, and you're saying it because you know it's stupid and doesn't reflect at all what I said. You know what a strawman argument is?
You're truly rediculous. Picking a fight with anyone who doesn't agree with you. At least this time you didn't start a new line with every sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DominoXML
Can't You just admit that You overshooted the mark instead of presenting such a pseudo intellectual reasoning trying to point the finger to others?
It was out of poor taste, I'm sorry for laughing and not showing respect.
Damn, I wish I were employed by Google!! I'd have a nice office, a great campus and wouldn't live in the sticks where my job is located.
However, when I disable the 3G - the phone works as well as my co-worker's 3GS. So, a part of the puzzle is firmware (face detection, 3G degrading cell phone reception) - but the design flaw still exists. I'm using a case, and with the case the problem is essentially fixed - but the principle of the matter remains. The phone requires aftermarket accessories for it to function as advertised.
SO your bitching about the design while confirming the issue is in software...??? If it doesn't happen with 3G disabled is a problem with the radios handling of switching from 3G to edge. You've already established your in a marginal 3G coverage area. Apple never promised that the 4G would magically make more signal appear.
PS sales people must really love you. If you'd pay a restocking fee for a product that doesn't work and stay in a cellular contract when the area of primary use doesn't have signal you are what the industry referrers to as a biotch! You never pay a restock fee on a defective product and lack of coverage in the first month of the contact is the one universal get out of the contract for free card. JUST SAY NO!
I don't think it is a defect. I'm pretty sure Apple engineers have heard of attenuation and were aware of placing two antennas within contact of each other. These people aren't idiots. Let's see how the software update deals with it before we cry wolf.
You don't SERIOUSLY think the software update is gonna make up for bad antenna design do you? Wow! I want some of what you're smoking...
Guys - in all honesty, NOBODY here knows the answer! We are all just guessing based on what others have said, personal experiences (good/bad) and personal feelings towards Apple (good/bad). Add money to the equation and it gets even more touchy. I personally will wait until the patch comes out before I pass any judgment.
Please stop this craziness - it's turning into a freaking middle school biatchfest. I'm not saying people aren't having issues - just no need to name call and flame. It's a discussion board, not a I DEMAND, or YOU"RE AND IDIOT board.
Sheesh!
Things are the way they are around here because the membership wants it that way. Or else people would stop coming here. Just like people would return the iPhone 4 in masses if they didn't like it.
You're right when you say this is not a "demand board" or a "you're an idiot" board. So what kind of board is this? It's a board about Apple's stock price. We're here to get news on upcoming events before they are released so we can speculate and make a quick buck.
Here's the problem: Apple stock rises and falls on the whims of Apple's fan base who are for the most part Kool Aid drinking fanbois. Any other product like the iPhone that has caused so much rage and fury over exclusive carriers and weird antennas and lack of this or that feature should never have been a "hit" and yet the iPhone is flying off the shelves and Apple is making money in the middle of a recession.
Go figure. Hope Apple fixes the problem. Maybe that's why there is a three week delay on new phones. Maybe they are scrambling get it right. Or maybe their arrogance will make them "stay the course." Wouldn't be the first time.
What Apple has discussed is a cosmetic change. But, I suspect that if "changing the bar display" was all the update did-- we would have already seen it.
We can only hope. But those who are claiming that Apple has said they are releasing a fix for the dropped call issue, they are mistaken. They have said no such thing.
If they are working on that "additional fix" aas you suggest, and if they slip it in under the radar and without comment or admission that the problem really ever existed, well, that's a dishonest tact that I wouldn't have expected from Apple.
Hmm... soooo... it costs more to take an iPhone return than it probably cost to make it, and this assumes that Apple will not recoup the investment by, you know, refurbishing that iPhone with any said repair and using it as a refurb sale or exchange unit?
A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE? technology using UltraCMOS? process and HaRP? design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."
I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.
Comments
Field testing is fine, it's a good thing to do. But, any RF Engineer knows that touching an antenna is NEVER a good thing - it introduces parasitical resistance (you can work with that) and a 10-40 pF capacitance (Very Bad). The capacitance issue is what will de-tune your antenna. This is why adding electical tape really has a minimal impact - you need distance between the antenna and your body - just a few millimeters is all it takes.
Apple opted for cosmetics over RF Antenna design. This is an intentional design flaw. A concesssion was made for function vs. pretty. It was a poor decision. You have probably seen the Diagnostics Toolbox in the earlier OS. Why was this removed? They had the software, and they intentionally removed it .... why?
Consider, for the first time ever ..... ever! Apple made an accessory for the iPhone, and what an amazing coincidence that the product doesn't work well without this accessory!! Why, it's almost beyond belief.
I suggest you tone down your statements a bit.
I realize that there is an information vacuum (which is quite common with Apple while they address issues), leaving lots of room for everybody to deliver their own assumptions. These range from anywhere from common sense to plain stupidity.
Your statements unfortunately rank in the latter category.
I have used iPhones since the day they came out and have a reasonable point of reference. In my observations, I definitely see that the iPhone 4 behaves differently than my other ones.
But I would describe the variation more as fluctuations; often the reception is much better than with my iPhone 3GS, but then also many times worse. Just less predictable.
I also see the proximity sensor not working quite right at times; at times, the speaker phone turns on or a single digit being dialed while I have the phone to my ear.
That said, I have no problems waiting for a firmware/software update which I believe will address many if not all issues...
You will soon find that your shiny new iPhone will drop calls in areas where there is not a tower around the corner. This is why it's a HARDWARE DEFECT.
So software could not be the problem?
It's a hardware issue if the hardware is actually the problem and it's a hardware defect if it cannot be solved with software.
If it can be fixed with software, then it is not a hardware defect.
I think the reason people aren't returning their iPhones just yet is:
1. It's still an amazing piece of tech (if held right). HD video camera, Facetime, Retina Display, blazing speed
2. People are still within their 30 days and they're waiting for some sort of fix or response from Apple.
3. It doesn't bother some people enough to return it. They just learn to hold it differently.
4. People in high signal areas will never know that something is wrong with their iPhone 4.
I returned mine and now I'm back to being happy again. I'm using my iPhone 3G on a go-phone plan from AT&T and I've got 2.2.1 firmware loaded on it. I couldn't be happier right now.
5. Most bits of tech kit have issues of one kind or the other. People are resourceful and find a way. Returning is a pain.
I don't yet own one but would a small bit of carefully cut tape fix the problem? Would some carefully applied nail varnish fix it? I hate cases of any sort but a piece of tape doesn't bother me in the slightest.
How on earth did they calculate the cost of a case being $15?
The actual cost of creating a rubber case has got to be in the 2-3 dollar range.
The actual cost of creating a rubber case is more like in the 20 to 30 cent range.
Meanwhile, we have mass hysteria of dropped calls that may or may not have anything to do with actual reception, and many reports that the iPhone 4's reception is actually much improved over previous models. Until all this gets sorted out, nobody can predict exactly what, if anything, Apple will have to do to rectify what may, or may not, actually be a problem.
Seems like something that isn't a big deal, but why wouldn't you want it instead of not want it? It's a minor feature Apple decided the user didn't need.
Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.
Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.
Oh, I see you are back, iLuv/tekstud.
Apple advertised, and Stevie stated that you can hold the iPhone anyway you want.
Wrong. That was the iPad.
You probably are disappointed because the iPhone is not magical, even though Apple never claimed that it was.
Your statement regarding re-tuning the receiver is flawed - I am unaware of a digitally tunable capacitor. Digitally controlled resistors, yup. But there just aren't digitally controlled energy storage media in a microchip format (inductors or capacitors). Thus, you 'tune' your receiver in hardware and use software filters to further re-fine the tuning - but if you detune the antenna system by adding a variable 10-40 pF (human) load - I don't see how Apple can overcome this in firmware.
"Digitally Tuned Capacitor
A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE? technology using UltraCMOS? process and HaRP? design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."
I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.
Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.
Well when I got my phone, I needed to see if it was a refurb. Turns out it's not, so I can list it properly on ebay when the time comes.
I got to thinking today... perhaps this whole mess actually is a software issue.
I read somewhere where someone suggested that maybe when you touch that part of the phone, it's actually making it MORE signal, not less, but the software screws up and makes the signal drop.
How hilarious would it be if Apple rolls out a software update that fixes the problem and reception is actually improved when you pick it up and have no more dropped calls.
If I recall correctly, Apple has been able to fix issues with their computers that a lot of people SWORE that it HAD TO BE HARDWARE with a software update. After all, software CONTROLS the hardware.
Am I right?
I'm not saying that this software update will solve the problem because I have just as much doubt as everyone else about it, but it would be interesting if they did in fact find something in the baseband that wasn't making the hardware act as it should.
I have a strong suspicion that you are right. I have a long history with Apple going back to 1978. If there is a choice between:
1) a hardware-only implementation
2) a software-only implementation
3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation
Apple will choose 2) a software-only implementation, initially. Over time they may evolve to 3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation.
Almost never, will Apple choose a 1) a hardware-only implementation.
The reasons for this are obvious:
-- they can fix problems (maybe even dropped calls)
-- they can add features
To illustrate, anecdotally:
Circa 1984-6, then Apple Employee Bill Atkinson, (MacPaint, HyperCard, etc.), was giving a demo of some graphics on the Mac (AIR, it was for software for a CCD camera).
Someone on the audience asked: Will Apple buy Amiga to get their graphics hardware?
Paraphrasing Bill's answer: "Why, we can do that in software!"
Consider that Apple is the oldest personal computer manufacturer still in existence; that they have released thousands of devices over the 34 years of their existence; that there have been very few product recalls (you could count the major ones on one hand).
I believe a lot of that is due to the way they integrate hardware and software-- so that fixes and enhancements can be made without changing the hardware!
Boom!
.
Hey Braniac...you would have to be living under a rock not to have heard about the antenna issue and the iP4. It has had massive media coverage since DAY ONE.
You know how ridiculous this statement is: "People are lining up to buy the phone because many are unaware of this issue." So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?/ OMG that is comedy gold. Are you related to Bagdad Bob?
I along with many mainstream business and tech journals are ridiculing CR for their seemingly incongruous position.
Keep on banginig the drum...all you will end up with is a sore arm!
Enjoy your Droid!!!
The statement about living under a rock is completely ridiculous and it shows when it comes to reality, it's you who's living under a rock.
Take my mom for example. She's a perfect example actually. From the first time she saw a commercial for facetime, she's been talking about getting a family plan and iphones for everyone. When would she have been told about this issue if I didn't tell her?
You simply don't get it. You think the iphone sells in mass numbers to a ton of tech savy geeks!?
BTW, when someone lines up to BUY a product, how are they going to know how the product works? "So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?" No, that's what you're saying, and you're saying it because you know it's stupid and doesn't reflect at all what I said. You know what a strawman argument is?
You're truly rediculous. Picking a fight with anyone who doesn't agree with you. At least this time you didn't start a new line with every sentence.
Can't You just admit that You overshooted the mark instead of presenting such a pseudo intellectual reasoning trying to point the finger to others?
It was out of poor taste, I'm sorry for laughing and not showing respect.
Damn, I wish I were employed by Google!! I'd have a nice office, a great campus and wouldn't live in the sticks where my job is located.
However, when I disable the 3G - the phone works as well as my co-worker's 3GS. So, a part of the puzzle is firmware (face detection, 3G degrading cell phone reception) - but the design flaw still exists. I'm using a case, and with the case the problem is essentially fixed - but the principle of the matter remains. The phone requires aftermarket accessories for it to function as advertised.
SO your bitching about the design while confirming the issue is in software...??? If it doesn't happen with 3G disabled is a problem with the radios handling of switching from 3G to edge. You've already established your in a marginal 3G coverage area. Apple never promised that the 4G would magically make more signal appear.
PS sales people must really love you. If you'd pay a restocking fee for a product that doesn't work and stay in a cellular contract when the area of primary use doesn't have signal you are what the industry referrers to as a biotch! You never pay a restock fee on a defective product and lack of coverage in the first month of the contact is the one universal get out of the contract for free card. JUST SAY NO!
I don't think it is a defect. I'm pretty sure Apple engineers have heard of attenuation and were aware of placing two antennas within contact of each other. These people aren't idiots. Let's see how the software update deals with it before we cry wolf.
You don't SERIOUSLY think the software update is gonna make up for bad antenna design do you? Wow! I want some of what you're smoking...
Guys - in all honesty, NOBODY here knows the answer! We are all just guessing based on what others have said, personal experiences (good/bad) and personal feelings towards Apple (good/bad). Add money to the equation and it gets even more touchy. I personally will wait until the patch comes out before I pass any judgment.
Please stop this craziness - it's turning into a freaking middle school biatchfest. I'm not saying people aren't having issues - just no need to name call and flame. It's a discussion board, not a I DEMAND, or YOU"RE AND IDIOT board.
Sheesh!
Things are the way they are around here because the membership wants it that way. Or else people would stop coming here. Just like people would return the iPhone 4 in masses if they didn't like it.
You're right when you say this is not a "demand board" or a "you're an idiot" board. So what kind of board is this? It's a board about Apple's stock price. We're here to get news on upcoming events before they are released so we can speculate and make a quick buck.
Here's the problem: Apple stock rises and falls on the whims of Apple's fan base who are for the most part Kool Aid drinking fanbois. Any other product like the iPhone that has caused so much rage and fury over exclusive carriers and weird antennas and lack of this or that feature should never have been a "hit" and yet the iPhone is flying off the shelves and Apple is making money in the middle of a recession.
Go figure. Hope Apple fixes the problem. Maybe that's why there is a three week delay on new phones. Maybe they are scrambling get it right. Or maybe their arrogance will make them "stay the course." Wouldn't be the first time.
What Apple has discussed is a cosmetic change. But, I suspect that if "changing the bar display" was all the update did-- we would have already seen it.
We can only hope. But those who are claiming that Apple has said they are releasing a fix for the dropped call issue, they are mistaken. They have said no such thing.
If they are working on that "additional fix" aas you suggest, and if they slip it in under the radar and without comment or admission that the problem really ever existed, well, that's a dishonest tact that I wouldn't have expected from Apple.
Nice.
"Digitally Tuned Capacitor
A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE? technology using UltraCMOS? process and HaRP? design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."
I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.
NO, he hasn't. Quit spreading this myth.
Teaching Business Calculus to these twits back at my university days was quite entertaining.