The latest spelling, grammar etc. debate

Posted:
in AppleOutsider edited January 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habañero View Post


Another indicator that the "Flash is Dead" crowd is blowing hot air.



Varying degrees of browser support and mobile browser fragmentation make HTML 5 the same big bag of hurt for developers that every version before it has been.



Sorry Habanero, I try not to comment on grammar and punctuation mistakes, but this one has been annoying us lately. It's your name. "Habanero," the chili, doesn't have a tilde over the "n." The name comes from the city, Habana, Cuba, where the chili was first traded in quantity. It's common among English speakers to assume the tilde has been left off in error and so try to "put it back on."



We happen to like this chili a lot, by the way. It has a kind of heat and flavour different from all others we're familiar with. That's why I care where it comes from and what happens to the name. Thanks for considering.
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Comments

  • chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,517member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


    Sorry Habanero, I try not to comment on grammar and punctuation mistakes, but this one has been annoying us lately. It's your name. "Habanero," the chili, doesn't have a tilda over the "n." The name comes from the city, Habana, Cuba, where the chili was first traded in quantity. It's common among English speakers to assume the tilda has been left off in error and so try to "put it back on."



    THANK YOU Flaneur!

    I was ready to comment on that exact thing.
  • artificialintelartificialintel Posts: 65member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by some internet dude View Post


    Yea, the Galaxy tab sucks that's why it sold 1 million in a month and still going. Poor Apple fanboys there world is coming to an end. Hey Jobs "Android" LOL, I know that word scares him.



    I just wasted my time looking at some internet dude's posting history, and noticed that he always uses "there" instead of "their." Of course, everyone can type the wrong word from time to time and it's no worse than a minor distraction, but when you do it every time it gets really irritating.



    Also, the Tab sold a million in two months, though I don't suppose there's much value in pointing that out to such a poster. Really, I just can't take the misuse of the possessive adjective. I know, I know, it's rife on message boards, especially amongst trolls, but I'm afraid that someday it will become such a widespread mistake that no one remembers how to do it right. See also "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" as well as using "begs the question" as to mean "suggests the question" rather than to refer specifically to the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of a proposition when arguing for it.



    In conclusion, some internet dude, please stop destroying English. It's a wonderfully flexible, rich, and deep language, which I invite you to learn.
  • djsherlydjsherly Posts: 873member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I just wasted my time looking at some internet dude's posting history, and noticed that he always uses "there" instead of "their." Of course, everyone can type the wrong word from time to time and it's no worse than a minor distraction, but when you do it every time it gets really irritating.



    Also, the Tab sold a million in two months, though I don't suppose there's much value in pointing that out to such a poster. Really, I just can't take the misuse of the possessive adjective. I know, I know, it's rife on message boards, especially amongst trolls, but I'm afraid that someday it will become such a widespread mistake that no one remembers how to do it right. See also "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" as well as using "begs the question" as to mean "suggests the question" rather than to refer specifically to the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of a proposition when arguing for it.



    In conclusion, some internet dude, please stop destroying English. It's a wonderfully flexible, rich, and deep language, which I invite you to learn.



    You know what? You understood exactly what he was saying and language is about communicating a point, so spare us the English lessons. It's irritating to see words misused, but why the hang ups?



    Shakespeare would have really gotten up your nose had you been his contemporary.
  • artificialintelartificialintel Posts: 65member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    You know what? You understood exactly what he was saying and language is about communicating a point, so spare us the English lessons. It's irritating to see words misused, but why the hang ups?



    Shakespeare would have really gotten up your nose had you been his contemporary.



    I understand your position, but I acquit myself of simple liguistic pedantry in this case. The difference is that Shakespeare *expanded* the language. I'm not a person who has a problem with slang or alternate constructions. My problem is that persistent misuse of words and phrases can elide differences that used to allow different expression or signal useful information. If some internet guy had mixed and matched 'their' and 'there' I would have just thought, "Oh, well, he's sloppy," but that wasn't the case. He used 'there' every time. English would get measurably more confusing if the possessive adjective and the ordinary adjective were both spelled 'there.'. Likewise, I can't tell someone that 'I could care less' and have them understand that I could be less emotionally invested - instead they would take me to be saying the opposite. Even more distressing, I can't reliably use 'question-begging' to refer to its traditional referent in the minds of my interlocutors, and there really is no good substitute for it.



    Add or even modify the language all you want, but please don't wash it away with false synonyms and unnecessary ambiguities.
  • macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I just wasted my time looking at some internet dude's posting history, and noticed that he always uses "there" instead of "their." Of course, everyone can type the wrong word from time to time and it's no worse than a minor distraction, but when you do it every time it gets really irritating.



    Also, the Tab sold a million in two months, though I don't suppose there's much value in pointing that out to such a poster. Really, I just can't take the misuse of the possessive adjective. I know, I know, it's rife on message boards, especially amongst trolls, but I'm afraid that someday it will become such a widespread mistake that no one remembers how to do it right. See also "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" as well as using "begs the question" as to mean "suggests the question" rather than to refer specifically to the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of a proposition when arguing for it.



    In conclusion, some internet dude, please stop destroying English. It's a wonderfully flexible, rich, and deep language, which I invite you to learn.



    If that sort of thing bothers you, turn off the computer and the television: there's this weird retardation virus that's taking over humanity and preventing anyone from remember how to spell or even pronounce "fewer", randomly substituting "less" instead.



    It's everywhere.



    Be careful out there.
  • povilaspovilas Posts: 473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    You know what? You understood exactly what he was saying and language is about communicating a point, so spare us the English lessons. It's irritating to see words misused, but why the hang ups?



    Shakespeare would have really gotten up your nose had you been his contemporary.



    Yes language is about communicating, not deciphering.
  • tedktedk Posts: 16member
    Not to feed artificialintel's neuroses too much, but since you ranted about it:



    "Their" is a possessive pronoun not a "possessive adjective." Adjectives describe nouns... And, yes, MacRulez, that "less" and "fewer" thing drives me nuts too. Sorry, couldn't help myself...
  • thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    ...because this public exercise of ego-masturbation is irritating, even if factual.



    Yes, I also wish more people could spell or learn proper English. However, I certainly wouldn't rant about it on an international forum, and make myself out to be an ass of the equine nature by doing so.



    Not so sure about my own sentence structure, but I think I've communicated my repulsion to your "superior" attitude and "Webster-as-porn-for-English-teacher-types". Or not?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I understand your position, but I acquit myself of simple liguistic pedantry in this case. The difference is that Shakespeare *expanded* the language. I'm not a person who has a problem with slang or alternate constructions. My problem is that persistent misuse of words and phrases can elide differences that used to allow different expression or signal useful information. If some internet guy had mixed and matched 'their' and 'there' I would have just thought, "Oh, well, he's sloppy," but that wasn't the case. He used 'there' every time. English would get measurably more confusing if the possessive adjective and the ordinary adjective were both spelled 'there.'. Likewise, I can't tell someone that 'I could care less' and have them understand that I could be less emotionally invested - instead they would take me to be saying the opposite. Even more distressing, I can't reliably use 'question-begging' to refer to its traditional referent in the minds of my interlocutors, and there really is no good substitute for it.



    Add or even modify the language all you want, but please don't wash it away with false synonyms and unnecessary ambiguities.



  • habanerohabanero Posts: 77member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


    Sorry Habanero, I try not to comment on grammar and punctuation mistakes, but this one has been annoying us lately. It's your name. "Habanero," the chili, doesn't have a tilda over the "n." The name comes from the city, Habana, Cuba, where the chili was first traded in quantity. It's common among English speakers to assume the tilda has been left off in error and so try to "put it back on."



    We happen to like this chili a lot, by the way. It has a kind of heat and flavour different from all others we're familiar with. That's why I care where it comes from and what happens to the name. Thanks for considering.



    Guess what: it's my name, so I get to spell and punctuate it however I want.
  • ezduzitezduzit Posts: 158member
    @djsherly



    <so spare us the English lessons.>



    another idle comment that suggests we lower the already abysmal usa education levels to another new low.
  • flaneurflaneur Posts: 3,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Habañero View Post


    Guess what: it's my name, so I get to spell and punctuate it however I want.



    (oh, and you're missing the "a" , the hyphen, and the "hole" at the end of YOUR name)



    Change your name. Not that big of a deal.
  • mac.worldmac.world Posts: 340member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


    Change your asinine name. Not that big of a deal.



    Dictionary definition:

    "The habanero chili (Capsicum chinense) (pronounced /ˌhɑːbəˈnɛəroʊ/; Spanish: [aβaˈneɾo]) is one of the more intensely spicy species of chili peppers of the Capsicum genus. It is sometimes spelled (and pronounced) habañero?the diacritical mark being added as a hyperforeignism."
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I just wasted my time looking at some internet dude's posting history, and noticed that he always uses "there" instead of "their." Of course, everyone can type the wrong word from time to time and it's no worse than a minor distraction, but when you do it every time it gets really irritating.



    Also, the Tab sold a million in two months, though I don't suppose there's much value in pointing that out to such a poster. Really, I just can't take the misuse of the possessive adjective. I know, I know, it's rife on message boards, especially amongst trolls, but I'm afraid that someday it will become such a widespread mistake that no one remembers how to do it right. See also "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" as well as using "begs the question" as to mean "suggests the question" rather than to refer specifically to the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of a proposition when arguing for it.



    In conclusion, some internet dude, please stop destroying English. It's a wonderfully flexible, rich, and deep language, which I invite you to learn.



    His floundering grammar causes his message to founder!
  • flaneurflaneur Posts: 3,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mac.World View Post


    Dictionary definition:

    "The habanero chili (Capsicum chinense) (pronounced /ˌhɑːbəˈnɛəroʊ/; Spanish: [aβaˈneɾo]) is one of the more intensely spicy species of chili peppers of the Capsicum genus. It is sometimes spelled (and pronounced) habañero?the diacritical mark being added as a hyperforeignism."



    Interesting term, "hyperforeignism." I didn't know this one, so thanks. What it means is that the foreigner, ignorant of the history of the word, assumes his fellow foreigners (mostly gringos in this case) are mispronouncing it, and so try to fix it and thus make himself sound less ignorant.



    I just looked it up. Wikipedia has it under "hypercorrection," and actualy cites "habanero" with a tilde as a prime example of a hyperforeignism. (I notice that I misspelled tilde in my original post. I'm surprised no one caught it, but not surprised by my own forgetfulness. I'm going to change it, because I don't believe in perpetuating ignorance if I can help it.)



    What dictionary did you get that from, by the way? It should have said "misspelled" and "mispronounced" in my opinion, but lexicographers try to report and not to prescribe these days.
  • robin huberrobin huber Posts: 2,694member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I just wasted my time looking at some internet dude's posting history, and noticed that he always uses "there" instead of "their." Of course, everyone can type the wrong word from time to time and it's no worse than a minor distraction, but when you do it every time it gets really irritating.



    Also, the Tab sold a million in two months, though I don't suppose there's much value in pointing that out to such a poster. Really, I just can't take the misuse of the possessive adjective. I know, I know, it's rife on message boards, especially amongst trolls, but I'm afraid that someday it will become such a widespread mistake that no one remembers how to do it right. See also "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less" as well as using "begs the question" as to mean "suggests the question" rather than to refer specifically to the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of a proposition when arguing for it.



    In conclusion, some internet dude, please stop destroying English. It's a wonderfully flexible, rich, and deep language, which I invite you to learn.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    His floundering grammar causes his message to founder!



    The teaching and practice of the serious use of language skills seems to be one of the collateral casualties of the new age of instant communication. Speed over substance.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TedK View Post


    Not to feed artificialintel's neuroses too much, but since you ranted about it:



    "Their" is a possessive pronoun not a "possessive adjective." Adjectives describe nouns... And, yes, MacRulez, that "less" and "fewer" thing drives me nuts too. Sorry, couldn't help myself...



    MacRulez just threw in 'that "less" and "fewer" thing" for free!
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post


    The teaching and practice of the serious use of language skills seems to be one of the collateral casualties of the new age of instant communication. Speed over substance.



    U R so hecka rite
  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


    Interesting term, "hyperforeignism." I didn't know this one, so thanks. What it means is that the foreigner, ignorant of the history of the word, assumes his fellow foreigners (mostly gringos in this case) are mispronouncing it, and so try to fix it and thus make himself sound less ignorant.



    I just looked it up. Wikipedia has it under "hypercorrection," and actualy cites "habanero" with a tilde as a prime example of a hyperforeignism. (I notice that I misspelled tilde in my original post. I'm surprised no one caught it, but not surprised by my own forgetfulness. I'm going to change it, because I don't believe in perpetuating ignorance if I can help it.)



    What dictionary did you get that from, by the way? It should have said "misspelled" and "mispronounced" in my opinion, but lexicographers try to report and not to prescribe these days.



    I recently read an interesting article about hyperforeignism as an explanation for the seemingly random pronunciations of certain borrowed French words in both British and American English.



    Apparently, the more recently borrowed the word, the more likely it will be pronounced with exaggeratedly "foreign" stresses and vowel sounds, since early adopters are likely to be taking pains to not sound provincial. Sometimes this approximates the actual pronunciation of origin, sometimes the later, more relaxed version is actually closer to the mark.



    I would provide examples but of course that bit has slipped my mind. I originally came across the idea while investigating "fillet", but that's such a tar ball of origins, meanings, uses, stresses and pronunciations as to be an example only of the mutability of language.
  • flaneurflaneur Posts: 3,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I recently read an interesting article about hyperforeignism as an explanation for the seemingly random pronunciations of certain borrowed French words in both British and American English.



    Apparently, the more recently borrowed word, the more likely it will pronounced with exaggeratedly "foreign" stresses and vowel sounds, since the early adopters are likely to be taking pains to not sound provincial. Sometimes this approximates the actual pronunciation of origin, sometimes the later, more relaxed version is actually closer to the mark.



    I would provide examples but of course that bit has slipped my mind. I originally came across the idea while investigating "fillet", but that's such a tar ball of origins, meanings, uses, stresses and pronunciations as to be an example only of the mutability of language.



    Interesting, that time-of-borrowing angle. I wonder if it would apply to what must be my favorite candidate of a hyperforeignism, 'forte.' I remember reading an English-usage book in my youth wherein it pointed out that the word is a French borrowing and so should be pronounced 'fort,' as in fortification, not 'for-tay,' as if it were Italian. That would have been about 50 years ago, and do you think you can get away with saying it 'correctly' yet?



    But there's hope, I think, because a more trans-lingual outlook is now possible, what with all information now available all the time instantly. The diffusion of a concept like hyperforeignism into this forum is an example of such noetic pressure in action.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,410member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post




    I would provide examples but of course that bit has slipped my mind. I originally came across the idea while investigating "fillet", but that's such a tar ball of origins, meanings, uses, stresses and pronunciations as to be an example only of the mutability of language.



    Well, there you go...



    Your effort should have been directed at investigating "fille".



    Bob's your uncle!
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