But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use, one design can service all pro users in all studio requirements and the machine can still be bought by funky geeks like me and you wishing to show off OK! and NO despite the wiring nightmare thirty minies just doesn't cut the mustard does it. (that is a rhetorical question btw)
If Apple used such a new sleek streamlined design in their own datacentre it would be quite cost effective to re-develop the Macpro and would also bring professional services back on their cloud nine campus so to speak for the foreseeable future.
I agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeph
Lately I have been thinking that the next-gen MacPro may well be a new, smaller design. As such they could actually make it a box that can stand upright like a tower or lay flat like a desktop model.
From there it would not be a big step to have optional rack ears and with that you could substitute your xServe.
4 of them would be $32,000. I reckon it might be a while before that pays for itself unless it's big enough to live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMc
the machine can still be bought by funky geeks like me and you wishing to show off OK! and NO despite the wiring nightmare thirty minies just doesn't cut the mustard does it.
You could always have 40 Minis.
The clone wars begun they have.
There would be a few wires hanging around but someone just needs to design a rack for them with the wires concealed.
OK Marvin, guess you didn't understand the word "rhetorical"... good luck with your 40x $1k mini DVD nightmare wired work out of the box rack, suppose someone had just got to do it!.
meanwhile I thought we were discussing the professional future of the MacPro a nice neat modern single box solution for Service studio and business with no mechanical drives as will be all future computers,
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives, for eg: 3 unit hight with attachable 19"rack mount wings built to accommodate 8 PCIe cards affording an unequalled variation of specialist build potential much cheaper than mutiple mini mayhem???, oops that is rhetorical aswell.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts, the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
OK Marvin, guess you didn't understand the word "rhetorical"... good luck with your 40x $1k mini DVD nightmare wired work out of the box rack, suppose someone had just got to do it!.
meanwhile I thought we were discussing the professional future of the MacPro a nice neat modern single box solution for Service studio and business with no mechanical drives as will be all future computers,
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives, for eg: 3 unit hight with attachable 19"rack mount wings built to accommodate 8 PCIe cards affording an unequalled variation of specialist build potential much cheaper than mutiple mini mayhem???, oops that is rhetorical aswell.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts, the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
Hi Michael, I can see where your coming from but the Macpro is aimed squarely at studio pro type of business, we live in a 19" rack mounted world as the likes of real world server farms.
short towers are a product of the domestic world that the mini is designed to accommodate, but in a studio we throw about gbts of raw audio and video data compiling and rendering terabts of film footage on the fly in virtual real time which is what the Macpro with its duel zeon processors is designed to do.
the Xserve was technically surplus to requirement, now the Macpro needs to be redesigned to fulfil all things to all pro server and studio users and a multiple PCIe based frame is the way to go, literally everything from SSD to GPUs and break in box cards is PCIe based even legacy harddrives if your so disadvantaged, this is not a platform for the meek, it costs thousands because we make money to afford this level of professional edit suit computing its business.
If you need a domestic computer then stop winging and get an iMac mini or a Macbook because before you could exhaust what you have there will be another better one coming along alot cheaper than a Macpro to satisfy your needs.
But for Macpro professional users we need a whole new generation and designer machine by next year to spend big bucks on for sure and this one design needs to fill the whole hole between workstation and server, are you listening Applemac guys...
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives
When they shrink down the component fabrication though, they just up the performance by doubling the transistor count within the same power usage. The next Mac Pro will have up to 16 physical cores with likely 6 on the low-end. The only reason they'd need a bigger PSU is to support 8 PCI cards because someone would try and fit 8 x 200W GPUs in there and overload the 1kW PSU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMc
the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
For now it is but it will be upstaged by the underdog. At what point do you think people will stop asking for improvements to the Mac Pro?
- when the Mini has 8 cores in 5 years?
- when the Mini has 16 cores in 10 years?
- when the Mini has 32 cores in 15 years?
The future of the large devices is already in the lower-end devices and the big devices gradually fade out and become more and more specialised.
The iMac succeeds the Mac Pro, the Mini succeeds the iMac, the iPhone succeeds the Mini.
Think back to when the G4 hit 1Ghz about 9 years ago. Now we have this performance in our pockets along with graphics that rival high-end games consoles, 802.11n wifi and 720p cameras. The same will happen in another 9 years. Imagine having the equivalent of an 8-core Mac Pro in your pocket.
Crysis 3 for Cinema, real-time graphics, should be possible to get that quality on IGPs/SoC in under 10 years:
The only reason they'd need a bigger PSU is to support 8 PCI cards because someone would try and fit 8 x 200W GPUs in there and overload the 1kW PSU.
guess there needs to be a built in idiot fool-proofing somehow.
Quote:
The future of the large devices is already in the lower-end devices and the big devices gradually fade out and become more and more specialised.
I agree but iMacs won't have built in fast 10-20 terabt SSD mem core, it is an intelligent terminal not a prosumer 19" rackmount studio machine, and will be mem limited in the future of cloud computing service.
Quote:
The only thing the Mac Pro will be for is scientific computation, not even graphics and even this can be done with distributed means.
You may well be right iMacs successors will become powerful computers, but with the advent of cloud computing will they warrant sporting enough ssd and power to become professional workstation class machines to replace a super high res studio editing Macpro and video service server...?
In the meantime can I have a next generation to be going on with until we get there.
I have to wonder how much longer Apple is willing to service this niche of computer user. Not trying to upset anybody, or offend anyone's delicate sensibilities. Numbers and facts are what they are.
I get the feeling that if they felt they could get away with it, they would just cut these people loose. But for now they probably can't and I doubt they will. Still I think its a ticking clock.
Apple won't abandon the Mac pro. It will always be the Mac of choice for the pros in the film, art and design world. Before the iMac became the powerhouse that it is now, the Mac pro straddled that line between high end consumer and the pros. Now I think it's strictly for the pros, and that "niche" as you call it...AINT GOING AWAY. End of story.
Us average consumers and semi pros can do all we need on MacBook pros and iMacs.
The big video editing and graphic design houses will continue to use the mac pros. :-)
Now I think it's strictly for the pros, and that "niche" as you call it...AINT GOING AWAY. End of story.
I think you are mistaken, if they can axe the Xserve, the MacPro is not sacred either. They high end iMac is already faster than the low end MacPro. People that need more power than the high end iMac provides will use a Mini farm without thinking twice.
You can already fit 2x Mini in a 1U rack. See that Cringley article. Since that was written, OS X Server built into Lion was announced, and we have Thunderbolt. The pieces are already available! And a new Mini is due out real soon!
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
I've actually tossed this idea around in my head, that is either half or 1/3 rack width PC's of two to three units height. The model or prototype in my imagination is all of those HP instruments that just happen to be half rack wide. The size is very useful for many desktop and not so desktop users. Plus it solves Apples lack of a rack based system.
Actually with the fast advance of high integration devices I would not be surprised to find a viable PC built in a 1/4 rack width and maybe even 1U. That may be a little to compact for what many of us want in the long talked about XMac but I believe focusing on a half rack wide unit would lead to a very flexible design. One that could be used by a wide array of customers.
The "pros" have kept Apple afloat while all the consumers were buying up IBM PC's and Win 95. So sick of hearing about everyones grandma and catering to the "tech illiterate" class. The Mac Pro is staying in one form or another. Apple is not going to relinquish it's 1+ million "Pro" Final Cut users.
The iMac has no I/O for true professional work and sorry a TB connect and external RAID will still have sleep issues, all externals do. I need fibre/SAS attached HBA's, where is that going to go on these non Mac Pro models? The only thing Apple could and possibly will do is move away from content creation entirely and just be a media company. When that happen's I will be warming up to my new friend Billy Gates. Or I'll just pirate the shit out of them.
The big video editing and graphic design houses will continue to use the mac pros. :-)
The iMac spec is plenty for design houses, especially bundling 27" IPS displays.
27" IPS iMac, quad-core, 16GB RAM = $2600
Quad-core Mac Pro, 16GB RAM, 27" IPS = $4275
High-end video editing facilities use multi-TB networked RAID storage, the source media isn't inside the Mac Pros because it's too valuable and needs to be shared/backup up properly so you'd only need enough to have a few active projects like 1-2TB internal per workstation and SSD with a good GPU will cut through HD codecs like butter in a few years.
If SSD drops in price 20% year on year, it will be in the region of today's HDD in 10 years so a Mini can have 4 x 2TB blades in RAID 01 or whatever for < $400.
I very much doubt people will need over 32GB RAM for anything other than a server used for VPS and 32GB would do for a Mini as it's so small.
As much as I am aware that statements are often made about what people will ever need and eventually are untrue, I can't imagine very many cases where anyone would need more than a 16-core Mac Mini with 16-32GB RAM, up to 8TB SSD saturating SATA 6 (by then it will likely be some optical internal connection even) with a GPU that matches today's workstation cards capable of photoreal output in real-time and IO ports running at 100Gbps.
There are just limits to what people need to do with machines because their fundamental purpose is to allow us to create and consume digital content - that statement covers almost everything with the exception of calculations for which you just buy lots of machines or rent server time. If the content that we create or consume doesn't get dramatically more complex then the requirements to deal with it won't either.
Nobody is complaining that 1080p 3D photoreal video isn't good enough so that's the limit and even an iPad will get there eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bothaus
The "pros" have kept Apple afloat while all the consumers were buying up IBM PC's
Not any more though, the iOS devices now make up most of Apple's revenue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bothaus
I need fibre/SAS attached HBA's, where is that going to go on these non Mac Pro models?
You are of course, right Marvin and all that you describe is somewhere down the track in the future, and likely not all that far away.
For now and in the next few years tho' we still work with stuff like AJA and BlackMagic cards and ProTools cards. Those guys working with Red cams have the option of installing Red Rocket <insert your need here> - the point being is you customize it. You simply can't do it with any other machine - except for the MBP's with I/O adapters. Then you have attached storage boxes which just increases the footprint. Apple have always been aware of this so you end up buying your horse for the course at the end of the day given $$$ constraints.
Now we can cut video using smart highly compressed codecs because the horsepowers there on any current Mac on offer. Any of them are powerful enough as they are now and have been for sometime <war story> heck I remember cutting dv on a G3 450 MacBook back when dualie 500's were king (and that's only 10 years ago !) <war story>
You're right the form factor will get smaller.
The big thing about a MacPro is you can have all the innards chocka full of cards, drives, whatever and if you need to take it on the road it's one lift and it's packed.
It's expandable and customizable - can't get past that.
People will always want something they can configure - the MacPro line is it - for a while anyway :-)
It has kept the same overall design since the Power Mac G5.
Everyone else here has addressed most of the problems with your post. The part quoted above strikes me as central flaw in your point. You have revealed yourself as a typical American marketing victim. You have accepted the ever present social conditioning that tells you to buy buy buy all the time. And that "new" and "Improved" is the only way to assess the quality of a product. And that a product that is 2 or 3 years old is obsolete. Heaven forbid a product maintain it's external appearance without change for more than a 6 month time period.
As others has stated Apple's competitors have systems that spec out and price out exactly the same. And the exterior design has now pretty much become "iconic"
As others has stated Apple's competitors have systems that spec out and price out exactly the same. And the exterior design has now pretty much become "iconic"
by definition creative people create... ever moving forward, to stand still is to cease to be creative and become stagnant and gather cobwebs, Icons are highlights in the timeline of our growing past.
Now we are discussing the state of present /future and change, and the present Icon Macpro has outlived its shape and form but not yet its use,
Marvin speculates future development quite well but it is always dangerous to look too far down the line into too many possibilities, and as creative people we need to grow to the next stage in the here and now frame.
Macbkpros and iMacs are set to become the user thin client interface devices and I would use them in any studio setup but not on a recording desk, not on a pro video edit suite, and not on a stage control video server setup.
ask any engineer if he would prefer lugging around a 40 minis rack instead???
Every accessory comes on PCIe cards and the next development from Intel builds on that specification, its easy to imagine the next Macpro undergoing a new radical design iteration to accommodate these new technological advances,
If I were to design a new studio today I'd want a micro cloud system connected live to the macro cloud dissemination of the web. therefor optimizing a new macpro design to have multiple user configured preferences albeit either a studio desk system or central local server and on even to thunderbolt mutinode internet service provision.
"Time waits for no man" and mechanical drives and the disc have had their time solid state memory cores are here the future has arrived and Intel are adopting PCIe card SSDs as their next standard hence my ideal future macpro being reduced in size but still a studio rack mountable duel Zeon processor M/C having 8 full size PCIe card slots and optical thunderbolt stackable, what more could one want?
In my experience I've inevitably found the simplest neatest solution to be the right one.
and what is to come 10 years hence will have plenty of time for new discussion I'm sure.
This of course does not detract from the 27" top of the range iMacs ability to be a wonderful stand alone client device that equally has many niche uses aswell which can also connect to a businesses micro cloud Macpro based server system the software of which is now included in Lion OS.
or indeed the mini that has many domestic uses ahead of it, but I don't think any studio engineer would want a rack of 40 of them gracing his room in place of a Macpro.
For now and in the next few years tho' we still work with stuff like AJA and BlackMagic cards and ProTools cards. Those guys working with Red cams have the option of installing Red Rocket <insert your need here> - the point being is you customize it. You simply can't do it with any other machine - except for the MBP's with I/O adapters. Then you have attached storage boxes which just increases the footprint. Apple have always been aware of this so you end up buying your horse for the course at the end of the day given $$$ constraints.
The big thing about a MacPro is you can have all the innards chocka full of cards, drives, whatever and if you need to take it on the road it's one lift and it's packed.
It's expandable and customizable - can't get past that.
I think the Thunderbolt port is going to be a very important addition and will change all this. One of the problems, especially on the Mac side is that PCI cards are designed for one model of machine. This means they are hard to get hold of, are expensive and can have compatibility issues.
By externalising all 3rd party hardware through a common IO port that fits on any device, it means hardware can be standardised and accessible to every machine.
Over 70% of all shipped computers today are laptops and great for musicians. Being able to plug in Thunderbolt Pro Tools equipment will be a very popular solution:
A bit pricey but that's what goes with owning a RED Camera. If that device was standardised to use TB, it would work with both laptops and desktops and could be more cost-effective as they'd sell more of one product.
I think the best way to setup devices is to have all peripherals external even your main data storage with just the OS internal. This way when you want to upgrade, you just unplug the modular processing part and everything else is constant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog
Heaven forbid a product maintain it's external appearance without change for more than a 6 month time period.
There's no real harm in maintaining a design for a while but you can understand it getting stale after 8 years, especially if you weren't a fan of it from the outset. Once a hardware design reaches a certain point though, you can see how it would be hard to improve on. I feel this way about the iPad, the Mini and the Air, which is why they would suggest to me they are the right horses to bet on being the successful designs long term.
Comments
But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use, one design can service all pro users in all studio requirements and the machine can still be bought by funky geeks like me and you wishing to show off OK! and NO despite the wiring nightmare thirty minies just doesn't cut the mustard does it. (that is a rhetorical question btw)
If Apple used such a new sleek streamlined design in their own datacentre it would be quite cost effective to re-develop the Macpro and would also bring professional services back on their cloud nine campus so to speak for the foreseeable future.
I agree:
Lately I have been thinking that the next-gen MacPro may well be a new, smaller design. As such they could actually make it a box that can stand upright like a tower or lay flat like a desktop model.
From there it would not be a big step to have optional rack ears and with that you could substitute your xServe.
Just thinking out loud.
maybe half the volume size of todays having 8 full PCIexpress slots
How can you half the volume and double the number of slots? Also 2TB SSD cards cost about $8,000 each:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227516
4 of them would be $32,000. I reckon it might be a while before that pays for itself unless it's big enough to live in.
the machine can still be bought by funky geeks like me and you wishing to show off OK! and NO despite the wiring nightmare thirty minies just doesn't cut the mustard does it.
You could always have 40 Minis.
The clone wars begun they have.
There would be a few wires hanging around but someone just needs to design a rack for them with the wires concealed.
meanwhile I thought we were discussing the professional future of the MacPro a nice neat modern single box solution for Service studio and business with no mechanical drives as will be all future computers,
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives, for eg: 3 unit hight with attachable 19"rack mount wings built to accommodate 8 PCIe cards affording an unequalled variation of specialist build potential much cheaper than mutiple mini mayhem???, oops that is rhetorical aswell.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts, the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
OK Marvin, guess you didn't understand the word "rhetorical"... good luck with your 40x $1k mini DVD nightmare wired work out of the box rack, suppose someone had just got to do it!.
meanwhile I thought we were discussing the professional future of the MacPro a nice neat modern single box solution for Service studio and business with no mechanical drives as will be all future computers,
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives, for eg: 3 unit hight with attachable 19"rack mount wings built to accommodate 8 PCIe cards affording an unequalled variation of specialist build potential much cheaper than mutiple mini mayhem???, oops that is rhetorical aswell.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts, the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
This.But I want a 2U chassis.
short towers are a product of the domestic world that the mini is designed to accommodate, but in a studio we throw about gbts of raw audio and video data compiling and rendering terabts of film footage on the fly in virtual real time which is what the Macpro with its duel zeon processors is designed to do.
the Xserve was technically surplus to requirement, now the Macpro needs to be redesigned to fulfil all things to all pro server and studio users and a multiple PCIe based frame is the way to go, literally everything from SSD to GPUs and break in box cards is PCIe based even legacy harddrives if your so disadvantaged, this is not a platform for the meek, it costs thousands because we make money to afford this level of professional edit suit computing its business.
If you need a domestic computer then stop winging and get an iMac mini or a Macbook because before you could exhaust what you have there will be another better one coming along alot cheaper than a Macpro to satisfy your needs.
But for Macpro professional users we need a whole new generation and designer machine by next year to spend big bucks on for sure and this one design needs to fill the whole hole between workstation and server, are you listening Applemac guys...
22nm zeon and 22nm AMD GPUs and new 20nm SSDs will run much cooler requiring reduced PSUs the whole could easily be housed in a new design case without legacy mechanical drives
When they shrink down the component fabrication though, they just up the performance by doubling the transistor count within the same power usage. The next Mac Pro will have up to 16 physical cores with likely 6 on the low-end. The only reason they'd need a bigger PSU is to support 8 PCI cards because someone would try and fit 8 x 200W GPUs in there and overload the 1kW PSU.
the macpro is the bedrock of professional MacOS computing.
For now it is but it will be upstaged by the underdog. At what point do you think people will stop asking for improvements to the Mac Pro?
- when the Mini has 8 cores in 5 years?
- when the Mini has 16 cores in 10 years?
- when the Mini has 32 cores in 15 years?
The future of the large devices is already in the lower-end devices and the big devices gradually fade out and become more and more specialised.
The iMac succeeds the Mac Pro, the Mini succeeds the iMac, the iPhone succeeds the Mini.
Think back to when the G4 hit 1Ghz about 9 years ago. Now we have this performance in our pockets along with graphics that rival high-end games consoles, 802.11n wifi and 720p cameras. The same will happen in another 9 years. Imagine having the equivalent of an 8-core Mac Pro in your pocket.
Crysis 3 for Cinema, real-time graphics, should be possible to get that quality on IGPs/SoC in under 10 years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4nRzeNeka4
The only thing the Mac Pro will be for is scientific computation, not even graphics and even this can be done with distributed means.
In the short term, a smaller Mac Pro would be nice but it will become old and pass away.
The only reason they'd need a bigger PSU is to support 8 PCI cards because someone would try and fit 8 x 200W GPUs in there and overload the 1kW PSU.
The future of the large devices is already in the lower-end devices and the big devices gradually fade out and become more and more specialised.
I agree but iMacs won't have built in fast 10-20 terabt SSD mem core, it is an intelligent terminal not a prosumer 19" rackmount studio machine, and will be mem limited in the future of cloud computing service.
The only thing the Mac Pro will be for is scientific computation, not even graphics and even this can be done with distributed means.
You may well be right iMacs successors will become powerful computers, but with the advent of cloud computing will they warrant sporting enough ssd and power to become professional workstation class machines to replace a super high res studio editing Macpro and video service server...?
In the meantime can I have a next generation to be going on with until we get there.
I have to wonder how much longer Apple is willing to service this niche of computer user. Not trying to upset anybody, or offend anyone's delicate sensibilities. Numbers and facts are what they are.
I get the feeling that if they felt they could get away with it, they would just cut these people loose. But for now they probably can't and I doubt they will. Still I think its a ticking clock.
Apple won't abandon the Mac pro. It will always be the Mac of choice for the pros in the film, art and design world. Before the iMac became the powerhouse that it is now, the Mac pro straddled that line between high end consumer and the pros. Now I think it's strictly for the pros, and that "niche" as you call it...AINT GOING AWAY. End of story.
Us average consumers and semi pros can do all we need on MacBook pros and iMacs.
The big video editing and graphic design houses will continue to use the mac pros. :-)
Now I think it's strictly for the pros, and that "niche" as you call it...AINT GOING AWAY. End of story.
I think you are mistaken, if they can axe the Xserve, the MacPro is not sacred either. They high end iMac is already faster than the low end MacPro. People that need more power than the high end iMac provides will use a Mini farm without thinking twice.
You can already fit 2x Mini in a 1U rack. See that Cringley article. Since that was written, OS X Server built into Lion was announced, and we have Thunderbolt. The pieces are already available! And a new Mini is due out real soon!
What I would like to see is a short 3u tower that could be easily rack-mounted in groups of three so that you could have three machines per 3u. This machine could therefor be used as a desktop, rack-mounted workstation, or as a server. Hot-swappable drive bays with SSD sleds would be as useful in a studio setting as they would be in the server room. Throw in an optional hardware redundancy option for power supplies and Apple would kill two birds with one stone: satisfy high-end pros and people still pissed about the ill-fated XServe. Really, there are so many similarities between a workstation and a workgroup server it only makes sense to consolidate them into one machine.
I've actually tossed this idea around in my head, that is either half or 1/3 rack width PC's of two to three units height. The model or prototype in my imagination is all of those HP instruments that just happen to be half rack wide. The size is very useful for many desktop and not so desktop users. Plus it solves Apples lack of a rack based system.
Actually with the fast advance of high integration devices I would not be surprised to find a viable PC built in a 1/4 rack width and maybe even 1U. That may be a little to compact for what many of us want in the long talked about XMac but I believe focusing on a half rack wide unit would lead to a very flexible design. One that could be used by a wide array of customers.
The iMac has no I/O for true professional work and sorry a TB connect and external RAID will still have sleep issues, all externals do. I need fibre/SAS attached HBA's, where is that going to go on these non Mac Pro models? The only thing Apple could and possibly will do is move away from content creation entirely and just be a media company. When that happen's I will be warming up to my new friend Billy Gates. Or I'll just pirate the shit out of them.
Exactly.
However, screw Billy and Squirter.
Linux and whatever distro takes your fancy would be the way I'd go.
cheers
The big video editing and graphic design houses will continue to use the mac pros. :-)
The iMac spec is plenty for design houses, especially bundling 27" IPS displays.
27" IPS iMac, quad-core, 16GB RAM = $2600
Quad-core Mac Pro, 16GB RAM, 27" IPS = $4275
High-end video editing facilities use multi-TB networked RAID storage, the source media isn't inside the Mac Pros because it's too valuable and needs to be shared/backup up properly so you'd only need enough to have a few active projects like 1-2TB internal per workstation and SSD with a good GPU will cut through HD codecs like butter in a few years.
If SSD drops in price 20% year on year, it will be in the region of today's HDD in 10 years so a Mini can have 4 x 2TB blades in RAID 01 or whatever for < $400.
I very much doubt people will need over 32GB RAM for anything other than a server used for VPS and 32GB would do for a Mini as it's so small.
As much as I am aware that statements are often made about what people will ever need and eventually are untrue, I can't imagine very many cases where anyone would need more than a 16-core Mac Mini with 16-32GB RAM, up to 8TB SSD saturating SATA 6 (by then it will likely be some optical internal connection even) with a GPU that matches today's workstation cards capable of photoreal output in real-time and IO ports running at 100Gbps.
There are just limits to what people need to do with machines because their fundamental purpose is to allow us to create and consume digital content - that statement covers almost everything with the exception of calculations for which you just buy lots of machines or rent server time. If the content that we create or consume doesn't get dramatically more complex then the requirements to deal with it won't either.
Nobody is complaining that 1080p 3D photoreal video isn't good enough so that's the limit and even an iPad will get there eventually.
The "pros" have kept Apple afloat while all the consumers were buying up IBM PC's
Not any more though, the iOS devices now make up most of Apple's revenue.
I need fibre/SAS attached HBA's, where is that going to go on these non Mac Pro models?
Thunder, thunder, thunder... Thunderbolt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn-qEPNgvJw
Why would it have sleep issues?
For now and in the next few years tho' we still work with stuff like AJA and BlackMagic cards and ProTools cards. Those guys working with Red cams have the option of installing Red Rocket <insert your need here> - the point being is you customize it. You simply can't do it with any other machine - except for the MBP's with I/O adapters. Then you have attached storage boxes which just increases the footprint. Apple have always been aware of this so you end up buying your horse for the course at the end of the day given $$$ constraints.
Now we can cut video using smart highly compressed codecs because the horsepowers there on any current Mac on offer. Any of them are powerful enough as they are now and have been for sometime <war story> heck I remember cutting dv on a G3 450 MacBook back when dualie 500's were king (and that's only 10 years ago !) <war story>
You're right the form factor will get smaller.
The big thing about a MacPro is you can have all the innards chocka full of cards, drives, whatever and if you need to take it on the road it's one lift and it's packed.
It's expandable and customizable - can't get past that.
People will always want something they can configure - the MacPro line is it - for a while anyway :-)
cheers
It has kept the same overall design since the Power Mac G5.
Everyone else here has addressed most of the problems with your post. The part quoted above strikes me as central flaw in your point. You have revealed yourself as a typical American marketing victim. You have accepted the ever present social conditioning that tells you to buy buy buy all the time. And that "new" and "Improved" is the only way to assess the quality of a product. And that a product that is 2 or 3 years old is obsolete. Heaven forbid a product maintain it's external appearance without change for more than a 6 month time period.
As others has stated Apple's competitors have systems that spec out and price out exactly the same. And the exterior design has now pretty much become "iconic"
Word.
As others has stated Apple's competitors have systems that spec out and price out exactly the same. And the exterior design has now pretty much become "iconic"
by definition creative people create... ever moving forward, to stand still is to cease to be creative and become stagnant and gather cobwebs, Icons are highlights in the timeline of our growing past.
Now we are discussing the state of present /future and change, and the present Icon Macpro has outlived its shape and form but not yet its use,
Marvin speculates future development quite well but it is always dangerous to look too far down the line into too many possibilities, and as creative people we need to grow to the next stage in the here and now frame.
Macbkpros and iMacs are set to become the user thin client interface devices and I would use them in any studio setup but not on a recording desk, not on a pro video edit suite, and not on a stage control video server setup.
ask any engineer if he would prefer lugging around a 40 minis rack instead???
Every accessory comes on PCIe cards and the next development from Intel builds on that specification, its easy to imagine the next Macpro undergoing a new radical design iteration to accommodate these new technological advances,
If I were to design a new studio today I'd want a micro cloud system connected live to the macro cloud dissemination of the web. therefor optimizing a new macpro design to have multiple user configured preferences albeit either a studio desk system or central local server and on even to thunderbolt mutinode internet service provision.
"Time waits for no man" and mechanical drives and the disc have had their time solid state memory cores are here the future has arrived and Intel are adopting PCIe card SSDs as their next standard hence my ideal future macpro being reduced in size but still a studio rack mountable duel Zeon processor M/C having 8 full size PCIe card slots and optical thunderbolt stackable, what more could one want?
In my experience I've inevitably found the simplest neatest solution to be the right one.
and what is to come 10 years hence will have plenty of time for new discussion I'm sure.
This of course does not detract from the 27" top of the range iMacs ability to be a wonderful stand alone client device that equally has many niche uses aswell which can also connect to a businesses micro cloud Macpro based server system the software of which is now included in Lion OS.
or indeed the mini that has many domestic uses ahead of it, but I don't think any studio engineer would want a rack of 40 of them gracing his room in place of a Macpro.
For now and in the next few years tho' we still work with stuff like AJA and BlackMagic cards and ProTools cards. Those guys working with Red cams have the option of installing Red Rocket <insert your need here> - the point being is you customize it. You simply can't do it with any other machine - except for the MBP's with I/O adapters. Then you have attached storage boxes which just increases the footprint. Apple have always been aware of this so you end up buying your horse for the course at the end of the day given $$$ constraints.
The big thing about a MacPro is you can have all the innards chocka full of cards, drives, whatever and if you need to take it on the road it's one lift and it's packed.
It's expandable and customizable - can't get past that.
I think the Thunderbolt port is going to be a very important addition and will change all this. One of the problems, especially on the Mac side is that PCI cards are designed for one model of machine. This means they are hard to get hold of, are expensive and can have compatibility issues.
By externalising all 3rd party hardware through a common IO port that fits on any device, it means hardware can be standardised and accessible to every machine.
Over 70% of all shipped computers today are laptops and great for musicians. Being able to plug in Thunderbolt Pro Tools equipment will be a very popular solution:
http://www.jigsawaudio.com/articles/...e-of-pro-tools
http://www.jigsawaudio.com/articles/...video-gallery/
It may be hard to supply enough bus power for some hardware but people build solutions like the mobile Red Rocket:
http://www.maxxdigital.com/mobile-ro...ed-rocket.html
A bit pricey but that's what goes with owning a RED Camera. If that device was standardised to use TB, it would work with both laptops and desktops and could be more cost-effective as they'd sell more of one product.
I think the best way to setup devices is to have all peripherals external even your main data storage with just the OS internal. This way when you want to upgrade, you just unplug the modular processing part and everything else is constant.
Heaven forbid a product maintain it's external appearance without change for more than a 6 month time period.
There's no real harm in maintaining a design for a while but you can understand it getting stale after 8 years, especially if you weren't a fan of it from the outset. Once a hardware design reaches a certain point though, you can see how it would be hard to improve on. I feel this way about the iPad, the Mini and the Air, which is why they would suggest to me they are the right horses to bet on being the successful designs long term.