How old are you? Have you not studied evolution or biology in school yet?
If you believe in the evolutionary theory (as opposed to creationism -- in which the chicken would be first because God created it), then an egg came first. Eggs were around much longer than chickens, as miss bianca has pointed out, but I say "chicken" in reference to any kind of creature that lays eggs.
This is because the egg, like the very first organisms, is a single cell. It grows and develops and reproduces by creating more eggs. All life forms evolved from single-celled organisms and all life today still starts from single cells. It is the way all living creatures reproduce.
Biology is certainly not my field of expertise; so, hopefully someone else can explain it more eloquently than I.
I think we had that in School, but I can't remember.
Thanx to GraphX and Starfleet X (oh, shit, I meant Brad ) |edit: forgot to add Mulattabianca| for pointing it out.
[quote] This is because the egg, like the very first organisms, is a single cell. It grows and develops and reproduces by creating more eggs. All life forms evolved from single-celled organisms and all life today still starts from single cells. It is the way all living creatures reproduce.
<hr></blockquote>
this explains a lot. and for the record, I believe in Darwinism.
But I still want that this thread goes more into an "philosophically" direction...
this is a very interesting question, although it really isn't the right question...
the right question would be something like, "if by some coincidence, life just formed, how does it then know how to reproduce?"
not only does life have to randomly form into order, bypassing the second law of thermodynamics, but it must then also pass on what its created onto the next generation. so it must have, 1. formed and 2. learned how to reproduce.
as most of you know, the reproduction system in any organism is very complicated, and for it to just figure out how to split into two parts is beyond luck (i'm only considering asexual reproduction here, as sexual reproduction is even more extreme). the odds of this are incredibly small, if not impossible. i study science for a living, so i get immersed in this stuff, and i love thinking about it. but when i come across the basics of life, i always end up realizing that we still know so very little...
Chicken and egg is the classical pattern of a question without answer. For centuries people have tried to answer it, and no answers where bring. The answer rather deals with philosophy rather than pure logic.
its alot like this, if you go with darwinism, what if humans laid eggs? you could ask what came first the human or the egg (assuming you mean the egg the chicken/human came from and not eggs in general)
With out eggs: ape --> primate --> human
with eggs: ape --> egg --> primate --> EGG --> human.
so in round about dulled down terms the egg logically (if you fallow darwinism) came first
Neither really came first, it was the amoeba, after millions of years of the best amoebi surviving and recreating themselves by dividing, they eventually became something other than amoebi, these somethings could travel further and therefore spread out across the world.
What with the continents splitting apart and the weather changing dramatically these somethings repeated a similar process and the species apdapted to their surroundings, eventually becoming very different from their distant relatives across the other side of the earth one or two of these species must have eventually evolved into flyen' thengs which flew around the world finding and or adapting to the best conditions. The overall result included chickens, which had a far more advanced reproductive system than the original singular celled organism, being able to create... the egg!.
So which came first? The thing that did eventually become the chicken, along with alot of other things so I'm siding more with the chicken. It's very unlikely that a species will evolve into an egg and then realise "hang on a minute, I can probably break out of this shell and hatch" as eggs aren't really creatures and eggs can't lay other eggs.
"if by some coincidence, life just formed, how does it then know how to reproduce?" <hr></blockquote>
If so, its hormones and other similar things, messages programmed into its brain or nucleus which automatically tell it to split apart or do that horrible dirty thing to reproduce.
Yes I know that's a spurious answer but it's the best I could think of without having to write some sort of shell to inject into yourself which emulates my strange and twisted mind, or babbling on like I did in my last post.
Well. There's a highly-regarded astrophysicist called Lee Smolin who posits that the universe (well, um, the universes, actually) follow evolutionary principles. Universes that are more likely to produce other universes (he says that the singularity at the 'centre' of a black hole it where this happens) are more likely to produce life since those principles apply from the micro to the microcosm, writ into the very 'stuff' of creation. (And besides, if the universe wasn't capable there'd be no-one around to say "gosh, we're alive" in the first place.) And those universes are themselves more likely to produce other similar universes too by a process of selection.
Anyway, the physical laws governing selection and the properties of live things generally reflect the processes that govern the behaviour and the apparently laws-of-thermodynamics-defying properties of galaxies. (Consciousness works on the same principles too, interestingly.)
Comments
I hope this topic was meant as a joke.
[ 08-09-2002: Message edited by: Defiant ]</p>
tHE DINOSAUR WAS B4 THE CHICKEN
rIGHT?
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
proto-chicken --> egg --> chicken
The egg came first.
<strong>not quite...
How old are you? Have you not studied evolution or biology in school yet?
If you believe in the evolutionary theory (as opposed to creationism -- in which the chicken would be first because God created it), then an egg came first. Eggs were around much longer than chickens, as miss bianca has pointed out, but I say "chicken" in reference to any kind of creature that lays eggs.
This is because the egg, like the very first organisms, is a single cell. It grows and develops and reproduces by creating more eggs. All life forms evolved from single-celled organisms and all life today still starts from single cells. It is the way all living creatures reproduce.
Biology is certainly not my field of expertise; so, hopefully someone else can explain it more eloquently than I.
[ 08-09-2002: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
I think we had that in School, but I can't remember.
Thanx to GraphX and Starfleet X (oh, shit, I meant Brad
[quote] This is because the egg, like the very first organisms, is a single cell. It grows and develops and reproduces by creating more eggs. All life forms evolved from single-celled organisms and all life today still starts from single cells. It is the way all living creatures reproduce.
<hr></blockquote>
this explains a lot. and for the record, I believe in Darwinism.
But I still want that this thread goes more into an "philosophically" direction...
[ 08-09-2002: Message edited by: Defiant ]</p>
<strong>You must think "evolution".
proto-chicken --> egg --> chicken
The egg came first.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>I'm casting my vote for the <a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html"; target="_blank">dinosaur</a> as well.
nah, if you vote for Dinosaurs, you'll be disqualified.
the right question would be something like, "if by some coincidence, life just formed, how does it then know how to reproduce?"
not only does life have to randomly form into order, bypassing the second law of thermodynamics, but it must then also pass on what its created onto the next generation. so it must have, 1. formed and 2. learned how to reproduce.
as most of you know, the reproduction system in any organism is very complicated, and for it to just figure out how to split into two parts is beyond luck (i'm only considering asexual reproduction here, as sexual reproduction is even more extreme). the odds of this are incredibly small, if not impossible. i study science for a living, so i get immersed in this stuff, and i love thinking about it. but when i come across the basics of life, i always end up realizing that we still know so very little...
<strong>"if by some coincidence, life just formed, how does it then know how to reproduce?"</strong><hr></blockquote>
That was more or less that was I was asking about, yes. But the neverending story of the Chicken and the Egg? sounds more interesting, no ?
but your title goes into the right direction.
No chicken ---> no egg
No egg ---> no chicken
With out eggs: ape --> primate --> human
with eggs: ape --> egg --> primate --> EGG --> human.
so in round about dulled down terms the egg logically (if you fallow darwinism) came first
Neither really came first, it was the amoeba, after millions of years of the best amoebi surviving and recreating themselves by dividing, they eventually became something other than amoebi, these somethings could travel further and therefore spread out across the world.
What with the continents splitting apart and the weather changing dramatically these somethings repeated a similar process and the species apdapted to their surroundings, eventually becoming very different from their distant relatives across the other side of the earth one or two of these species must have eventually evolved into flyen' thengs which flew around the world finding and or adapting to the best conditions. The overall result included chickens, which had a far more advanced reproductive system than the original singular celled organism, being able to create... the egg!.
So which came first? The thing that did eventually become the chicken, along with alot of other things so I'm siding more with the chicken. It's very unlikely that a species will evolve into an egg and then realise "hang on a minute, I can probably break out of this shell and hatch" as eggs aren't really creatures and eggs can't lay other eggs.
"if by some coincidence, life just formed, how does it then know how to reproduce?" <hr></blockquote>
If so, its hormones and other similar things, messages programmed into its brain or nucleus which automatically tell it to split apart or do that horrible dirty thing to reproduce.
Yes I know that's a spurious answer but it's the best I could think of without having to write some sort of shell to inject into yourself which emulates my strange and twisted mind, or babbling on like I did in my last post.
Maybe it just happened by accident.
Andrew
Andrew
Anyway, the physical laws governing selection and the properties of live things generally reflect the processes that govern the behaviour and the apparently laws-of-thermodynamics-defying properties of galaxies. (Consciousness works on the same principles too, interestingly.)
My money's on the egg, by the way.
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
The second law of thermodynamics states that entropy is non-decreasing for closed systems. The earth is not a closed system.
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>