Two Towers Thread - post reviews
Yes, there's anoth thread, but if you ask me it's bogged down with pages of pre-movie stuff. Fresh start. Hate me.
Anyway, I saw the movie today at an early matinee. . . Less money, less crowd. It was pretty good, but after three hours I was glad that it was over. My only complaint was the Jar Jar Binks-like presence of a certain Gollum. He's the reason why it was draggy, and if i remember correctly, his role has been expanded quite a bit for the movie.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
All in all, my verdict is that it was good to watch. Awaiting the third, and the inevitable Lord of the Rings complete DVD Box Set. . .
[ 12-18-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>
Anyway, I saw the movie today at an early matinee. . . Less money, less crowd. It was pretty good, but after three hours I was glad that it was over. My only complaint was the Jar Jar Binks-like presence of a certain Gollum. He's the reason why it was draggy, and if i remember correctly, his role has been expanded quite a bit for the movie.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
All in all, my verdict is that it was good to watch. Awaiting the third, and the inevitable Lord of the Rings complete DVD Box Set. . .
[ 12-18-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>
Comments
The changes were notable, but nothing made me cringe and most every one of them helped to establish exposition that might otherwise be lost.
The "debates" between Gollum and Smeagol were VERY well done. The chuckleheads who laughed ALL THE WAY THROUGH this sequence missed the importance of that dialogue and the resulting "flip" that occurred after Frodo stayed Faramir from having Gollum killed. Again, I thought that this was VERY well done and helped explain the raging battle between the little bastard's good and evil sides.
The CG of Gollum wasn't objectionable either, in fact it was quite fascinating but not in the "oh look at the CGI" way....the "emotions" and reactions on the face were really, really intriguing.
I missed seeing the Huorns after the battle of Helm's Deep, but DAMN what a Battle! Using Gimli as comic relief didn't offend my Tolkien sensibilities.
The additional material with Aragorn and Arwen and the Warg ride over the cliff, while not canon, were helpful exposition. The warning from Elrond to Arwen helped establish the enormity of what she'd be giving up were she to stay with Aragorn. It helped soften Elrond a tiny, tiny bit...although it's hard to separate the actor from his role in The Matrix.
I could write more, but I'll let other people contribute their reviews.....
D
<strong>If i remember correctly, his role has been expanded quite a bit for the movie.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're not remembering correctly. The Gollum scenes are all pretty much chapter and verse straight from the book. (I'm glad they got the stewed coneys in there!) He wasn't cut as much as some other stuff was, so in that sense he was showcased more in the movie. But I don't recall any Gollum scenes that weren't in the books.
I think Gollum worked marvelously. As a CG character he works much better than Jar Jar. Not quite so good that you forget he's CG, but it's close. And Andy Serkis' voice is great.
My only major complaint is the changes they made to Faramir. In the book he's the antithesis of Boromir -- thoughtful, wise. When he finds out about the Ring he never tries to take it. So in the movie when he marches Frodo and Sam off to Osgiliath it's just so wrong. Jackson is too insistent on harping on this "weakness of men" thing.
Plus, I suppose, he needed a climactic scene for Frodo and Sam since he bumped Shelob to ROTK.
All in all I liked the movie a lot. Helm's Deep was awesome. Bring on ROTK!
I loved it though. Incredible film, though I wish the very initial battle scene had lasted, uncut, to the point where the wall was blasted away.. then they could cut to other scenes. I just wanted the drama of that battle to really pull me in with full intensity and showing no mercy before they cut away.
<strong>I cried when the elves showed up at Helm's Deep. I've never read the books, so it was a surprise to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That was a surprise to me too: the book has no elves at Helm's Deep (except for Legolas, of course).
The elves were first into the world, and the fairest. You have to understand the deep sadness of the elves: they built paradise into Middle Earth and then botched it all up, though they like to blame men, they did plenty of the major screw-up work themselves. The undying lands, where the Elves sail, are somehow hidden after a king of men is tricked into thinking that any man who rules it will also live forever. Numenor (Aragorn's ancient ancestry) is sunk into the sea as punishment for this ill advised war against the elves and Valar/Maiar (like gods). So on this score at least, Elves rightly blame men. After this episode, the undying lands were somehow removed from the world, when the Elves sail back now it's strictly a one way trip. And yet they are said to be doomed to remain in the world. I didn't egt this part at first myself In the film, Gandalf seems to make an "interstellar" travel before he is sent back to finish his task, is Aman part of the heavens now? If that is indeed where Gandalf's spirit went? iDunno, it's been a long time, and I'm sure some Tolkien geeks could make a better answer than me. In any event, Gandalf is not a man, he is one of the Istari, wizards, and that's a different thing even if he looks like a man, so he might be one to go the "the undying lands," I'm not sure. The other problem is that death is the gift of men, it allows them to go beyond the world in Tolkien's mythology. Thusly, things are further obscured, to which destination did Gandalf leave the Earth before he seemed to re-enter his body as "the white" ???
Lots of this could be wrong but the general tone is that the Elves remain in this sort of plane (probably western middle earth but possibly some sort of cosmic mezzanine?) and are not freed until the earth itself dies. In that light Arwen is not giving up so much, she will leave the earth much sooner than other "elves."
In the beginning men were not afraid of death, partly because they believed, but by the time of "LotR" it seems both Elves and men have forgotten the doom of men. Once you read the Silmarillion you get a better picture of the metaphysics of Tolkien's universe. Elves also have exitential doubt (from Tolkien's letters, don't ask) because they cannot be rigthly assured that they will continue after the earth (only that they will be freed). They initially were utterly confounded by man's desire for immortality, for it at first seemed that man at least had the potential for "eternality," life outside the bounds of earth.
The there is spectre of "fading" which I don't remember rightly, happens when elves choose to linger forever in Middle earth, though the film implies that Galadriel will fade and "go into the west." Will she linger and finally leave???
Anyway, I'm entirely sure that this is all extremely muddled and inacurate, but it outlines the general shape of things -- for both elves and men have an existential torment in Tolkien's view; immortality itself is tied to the earth, it is limited, and the long memory of elves produces as much sorrow and doubt as the short memory of men... strange.
Snuck in to see TTT last night. London seemed to be just about sold out - we got the last 4 seats on the front row. 3 hours of neck strain and eye strain, but well worth it.
So, thoroughly enjoyed it. I wasn't perhaps as blown away as I was with the first one. But that was probably because in the FOTR everything is new, and a large part of the enjoyment is soaking up Jackson's vision of how middle earth looks and how the people act and interact.
Having set the scene in FOTR, Jackson could spend more time on the interactions between the characters and on the the big setpiece battle of Helms Deep.
I have no problems at all with his deviations from the book - whether he's inserting new bits, expanding on bits that are only implied in the book, or skimping/skipping bits that he feels are peripheral. Almost all of the addtiions work really well and help to flesh out the story; and some of the skipped sections may well appear in the expanded DVD.
Bits I loved:
- the whole orc chase at the start. A, L and G doing a whole load of running across stunning scenery; big ugly orcs being precisely as big, ugly and obnoxious as orcs shoud be. superb
- the scenery in general. I'd heard New Zealand was pretty, but the first two films show that it is in fact jaw-droppingly beautiful.
- gollum. wasn't sure what to expect , but the CGI is top draw and the characterization very well developed. excellently creepy and odd. severe need of dental work and a haircut. the inner war between slinker and stinker was splendid. (when he got nasty at one point I had a flashback to FOTR to when Bilbo has a quick nasty fit over the ring at rivendell). very hobbitty feet.
- eomer and his boys when they surround A, L and G.
- dead faces in the marshes and frodo doing a swan dive in to play with them
- grima. bad guy. no messing. despised him as soon as he appeared, which is just as it should be. his lusting after eowen worked really well
- helms deep battle. big set piece; loads of action. need to watch it again as there was almost too much to take in.
- relationship between G and L. much better (skimped on a bit in FTOR). entertaining competition for number of orcs decapitated/stabbed/shot
- relationship between A and eowen.
- comedy. a film this long and intense needs something to lighten the spirit, perk up the audience etc. I particularly enjoyed gollum chasing fish, and G being offered a box
bits I wasn't sure about or I need to think more about...
- theoden'd beard. got markedly shorter suddenly. because the spell had been lifted? or because gandalf nipped in with the clippers while grima was being beaten up?
- theoden. the only time I felt the film flagged was when he was being sad over his son and when the rohan were sorting themselves out ready to do a runner to helms deep. didn't really take to him (although i suppose he is meant to come over as a bit wet until the end)
- elves/elrond/arwen. good, but .... not sure why there's a but, yet it didn't quite... um. need to think more
- ents. difficult to do, and I thought they were pretty good. was treebeard also voiced by Rees-Davis (if that's the correct spelling of G's actor)? if not, sounds like him. attack on isenguard good, especially sarauman looking over the balcony in a very worried fashion. yet perhaps merry and pippin were a bit underplayed in this film, as they were in FOTR. really quite peripheral.
- wargs. notably cgi in places. a bit of a spurious attack. I don't recall this happening in the book, and I wasn't quite sure what it added to the film (althought it was a fun battle). and aragorn going over the cliff was also a bit spurious. gave time for discussion of aragorn/arwen interaction, followed by eowen looking very pleased when he gets back, but spurious.
- faramir. comments above about the change from wise/good to boromir-like are fair, although I didn't have a problem with it. just that, if he was going to be boromir-like, he didn't have the gravitas and authority that sean bean brought to the role. somehow didn't carry it off as being a hardman commander.
- sam's speech at osgoliath. wasn't sure about it at all.
Err, looking back over these, it sounds as though I had lots of criticisms - which I don't. I think Jackson has done a stunning job of adapting TTT and I'm looking forward to seeing it again (not from the front row of the cinema tho).
will also look forward to the DVD, where he explains the choices he made, and probably clarifies a lot of the bits I wasn't sure about.
Hang loose
G
----------------------
London weather: cold and nasty.
Now playing: Miles Davis/ESP
I agree there was too much Gollum, though I refuse to put him in the Jar Jar Binks category. He was [nowhere near as annoying] and is detestable (not some "cute" character device thrown in to make little kiddies laugh). I thought hey did a pretty good job of giving the context behind him and his personalit(ies). I wanted to know more about Smeegle though.
Also, I was a little let down that everything in the movie was so desolate compared to the first, but then that's how the story goes for the most part. Once all the places like Rivendell and Isengaard are introduced in the first movie there's no point in dwelling on the scenery in the second I guess. I was just hoping for a couple more amazing scene shots (like the two river statues in the first movie - probably my favorite scene).
More later. Overall I thought it was good and love paying for a movie that's actually more than 78 minutes long. Good stories take time to tell. Crap ones don't....
[ 12-19-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
To give more info of what Matsu wrote--that ties in a bit with the movies:
- The king of Numenor was tricked by Sauron
- Among the survivors (the faithful--who weren't tricked by Sauron) of Numenor's sinking were Elendil (who was killed by Sauron in the beginning of the FotR) and Isildur (his son who cut the ring from Sauron's hand).
- The giant statues of kings from FotR (The Argonath) were made by the Numenoreans
While the twist on Faramir irked me a bit, it was interesting to see book scenes interpreted from that viewpoint."It was OK, but I felt too much was glossed over, this one is definitely waiting for a director's cut. One thing it brought back from the books was my certain sense that, as much as Tolkien denied it, he was heavily coloured by the "Great Wars" of our own world. The counting contest between Gimli and Legolas practically screams of Billy Bishop and the flying aces of both world wars, as does the "industry" of Saruman echo the wreck of pastoral England, that being not really a result of war -- war itself merely its final product. In the film, engines and fortification have a forboding about them which Tolkien would have approved, I think.
I'm getting the sense now, that as much as Peter Jackson in his turn would like to say otherwise, we will not see a proper "Lord of the Rings" untill all three movies are subject to a final unifying director's cut, something easily over 10 hours, probably over 11, possibly kissing 12 hours, with some significant scene re-arrangement along the way.
Too bad we'll have to wait 2 more years for the real verion.
PS, yuck, did I make a gazillion typos in that other post or what? Too lazy to fix them though, I think you can muddle through.
[ 12-19-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
<strong>Can someone explain this whole "Elves going to the west" thing to me? I take it this is a permanent move? How does this work and why? Why can't they go back to middle earth?</strong><hr></blockquote>
To follow up on Matsu's post: When the Elves go into the West they go to Valinor in the land of Aman, where the Valar (the god-like beings that rule the Earth) dwell. There they can find relief from the sorrows of Middle-Earth. Long ago the Valar brought the Elves west to live with them and escape the evils of Middle-Earth, but some didn't go, and some (including Galadriel) defied the Valar and returned to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth, the original Dark Lord and Sauron's master. But those who left Valinor for Middle-earth had a doom laid upon them by the Valar: "And those that endure in Middle-earth ... shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race (Men) that cometh after."
The race of mortal Men came along much later than the Elves. They were forbidden to sail west to Aman/Valinor. When they did and tried to make war on the Valar, "the world was bent" (i.e. made round) except for Aman. Elves can still sail west, find "the Straight Path" and come to Aman and Valinor. Men cannot.
Elves who marry Men (i.e. Arwen) become mortal themselves. After their spouse dies, they die of their grief.
As for Gandalf: I think the "interstellar" thing was just a way for Jackson to show that Gandalf's spirit left his body. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, who are lesser gods, or angels, who serve the Valar. When Gandalf the Grey dies after the fight with the Balrog, his spirit does in fact go into the West, but he is sent back by the Valar as Gandalf the White to complete his mission.
The Silmarillion is great stuff for those who have read LOTR and its appendixes and want to know more about Middle-earth's back story. But it should be noted that it is somewhat Bible-like in form, much denser than LOTR, and can be tough sledding for those who just liked LOTR as a good read. Some people are told "you gotta read the Silmarillion" and then they're just totally lost because they're not that into the history. So just a word of warning there. Also, I wouldn't advise reading the Silmarillion if you have not already read LOTR.
[ 12-19-2002: Message edited by: CaseCom ]</p>
<strong> It helped soften Elrond a tiny, tiny bit...although it's hard to separate the actor from his role in The Matrix.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really. . . I guess you haven't seen "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert."
Everybody in our theater went "WHOA-HOA!!!!" when that happened.
It was awesome.
D
I also thought that Arwen didn't die but rather just sort of faded into part of the landscape . . .hmmm?!?!?!
oh well, I didn't study too closely . .
Anyway, haven't seen the movie . . . but this Faramir business simply sounds like a major blunder on Jackson's part
and also this coming to the rescue by the Elves!!!!
after all, wasn't it the ents eating away at the rear flanks that won Helm's Deep?!?!?!
hmmm?!??
must practice my reading comprehension skills
Tats wat i did and I had a truely enjoyable 3 hours of movie pleasure.
I don't want to say too much in case anyone wants to read the Silmarillion, but in a nutshell (and yes I know I will sound like it is real but I know its not
The world is orginally created by a supreme being called Eru with the help of angelic beings called the Ainur. He set up a sort of music with them as the choir...and thus the world was created. He then created a music on his own which was his act of creating Elves and Men (The Elder and Younger Children respectively).
The Ainur saw that the world was not yet ready for the coming of The Children...so some of them decided to go into the world and order it for the coming of the Children. These are the beings called the Valar. In the Lord of the Rings you often hear High Elves refer to Elbreth. She is the Queen of the Valar (with her husband Manwe who is the Elder King). One of the Ainur who entered the world was Melkor, Manwe's brother. He wanted to order things as he so fit..and became the first evil of the world. He was after called Morgoth...and Sauron was a lessor being in his service (a Maiar, like Gandalf and the other Istari).
The Valar fought Morgoth to order the earth for the coming of the Elves. When the Elves finally did appear, the Valar offered to let them come live with them in their realm of Valinor (the westernmost lands), which had been fortified against Morgoth. Before the Eleves appeared, the Valar had made two magical trees to give light to Valinor (this was before the Sun and Moon were made). A good part of the Elves accepted the offer and travled West and then over the ocean. Some groups broke off along the way (the wood elves of Mirkwood, of whom Legolas is one, the elves of Lothlorien, and others). The Elves who did make it to Valinor were of three kindreds, the Vanyar (Fair Elves), the Noldor (Deep Elves), and the Teleri (the Sea Elves). Collectively, these are the High Elves (Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees). Most of the Noldor later come back to Middle Earth to wage war on Morgoth to recover the Silmarils, jewels created by Feanor (one of the Noldor) which held the light of the the Two Trees. Morgoth destroyed the trees when he stole them, so the Valar make the Sun and the Moon to give comfort to the Noldor in their exile. Later, Morgoth is defeated, and the Elves are allowed to return to Valinor. Some stay because they love Middle-Earth..but they have the grace of the Valar to return when they weary of Middle-Earth.
Its a long story
I.M. VanDeWaals
[ 12-21-2002: Message edited by: VanDeWaals ]</p>
****ing dorktastic character names make me want to vomit. Galadriel? Fantasy shit like this makes me want to put my eyes out.
<strong>could they have named the characters Bob, Jim, Fred?
****ing dorktastic character names make me want to vomit. Galadriel? Fantasy shit like this makes me want to put my eyes out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
some day you will be a god (not just a wannabe one from AI) and everyone will give in to your wishes...