What holds back minority academic achievement?
I read an interesting article today and I have read some books from Thomas Sowell that make similar conclusions. Here is a quote that sums it up nicely.
[quote]The current orthodoxy is that schools are entirely responsible for the stubborn gap in test scores between blacks and American-born Latinos on the one hand, and whites and Asians on the other. Ogbu argues that deeply rooted attitudes, shaped by the historical experience of each group, also help explain the differences. For real change to occur, those attitudes have to change as well.
<hr></blockquote>
Here is the whole article.<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/26/ED180597.DTL"; target="_blank">Minority Educational Achievement</a>
I was wondering what you think? Do you think that blacks and American born latinos score worse on tests because of racism in America or in schools? Do you think there is something within their culture that undervalues education (it's acting white) and causes the lack of achievement in comparison to white and asian test scores?
Opinions?
Nick
[quote]The current orthodoxy is that schools are entirely responsible for the stubborn gap in test scores between blacks and American-born Latinos on the one hand, and whites and Asians on the other. Ogbu argues that deeply rooted attitudes, shaped by the historical experience of each group, also help explain the differences. For real change to occur, those attitudes have to change as well.
<hr></blockquote>
Here is the whole article.<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/26/ED180597.DTL"; target="_blank">Minority Educational Achievement</a>
I was wondering what you think? Do you think that blacks and American born latinos score worse on tests because of racism in America or in schools? Do you think there is something within their culture that undervalues education (it's acting white) and causes the lack of achievement in comparison to white and asian test scores?
Opinions?
Nick
Comments
I think Ogbu is spot on. I believe Minorities "Dumb" themselves down. Those who have assimilated to the "dumbed" down society then castigate anyone who attempts to get a proper education. Why would anyone think "acting White" was something to be ashamed of? If we look at evolution of the races and achievment Whites/Caucasians have done very well in recent centuries.
<strong>Nick,
I think Ogbu is spot on. I believe Minorities "Dumb" themselves down. Those who have assimilated to the "dumbed" down society then castigate anyone who attempts to get a proper education. Why would anyone think "acting White" was something to be ashamed of? If we look at evolution of the races and achievment Whites/Caucasians have done very well in recent centuries.</strong><hr></blockquote>
None of us are experts here on minority achievement. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Can we have an article or something? Go googling
<strong>
None of us are experts here on minority achievement. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Can we have an article or something? Go googling
Sean, no doubt. But I find it very disturbing that it is so easy to find Blacks who don't read. I think reading is paramount to a successful education and sometimes you can just walk into someones House and see more dust balls than books. That's scary. The most intellegent people I know are voracious readers. They tend to have more "interesting" things to talk about and spell much better than my non reading friends. Getting a decent education is free. It's more than most minorities had 200yrs ago. I suggest anyone complaining about "White Society" holding them back best start with the Man/Woman in the mirror.
"the system" or "the man" serves now as their collective panacea. The sceptre of his mythic opression looms large in their upbringing, it says don't even try, you won't get far 'cause every white boy you meet hates you, businesses don't want you, no one will ever accept you for you. This is the grand excuse, better learn to play ball or get jiggy 'cause that's your only shot. Otherwise just be decent and give up, or be a man and take what you want regardless of the law. Trapped by a juvenile culture of impressive reach and influence. Trapped by an utter lack of an adult vision. Trapped into stupidity.
When people ask you why they don't do well, it's an easy answer, they're stupid!
[ 12-29-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
<strong>They're stupid. Simple. Why? Because they're victimized by a culture and politics heavily invested in making and keeping them stupid -- their own. Show me an ebonics talking corn row wearing rap wannabe and I'll show you a kid with next to no future. Same thing with a greasy carnale (sp?) cruising the boulevard in his low-rider, or perhaps "chiquita" flashing her thong at the boys during recess. They do badly for fairly obvious reasons that now have almost nothing to do with the system.
"the system" or "the man" serves now as their collective panacea. The sceptre of his mythic opression looms large in their upbringing, it says don't even try, you won't get far 'cause every white boy you meet hates you, businesses don't want you, no one will ever accept you for you. This is the grand excuse, better learn to play ball or get jiggy 'cause that's your only shot. Otherwise just be decent and give up, or be a man and take what you want regardless of the law. Trapped by a juvenile culture of impressive reach and influence. Trapped by an utter lack of an adult vision. Trapped into stupidity.
When people ask you why they don't do well, it's an easy answer, they're stupid!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Definitely no racism in the USA....
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I think the logical thing to say is that it's a combination of factors, one being how minority students perceive their own success or failure. That's about as internal and removed from blaming white society as you can get. Although I have to go to work right now and I'm going to Ski Windham tomorrow so I can't research the issue any further for bit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought that was a nice article you quoted. The conclusions it draws, that success or failure are attributed to internal factors in the most successful students and external factors in the least successful students.
What are some of the other factors that you think might contribute to success and failure besides internalization?
Nick
You might want to avoid such blatant racism in future.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: ShawnPatrickJoyce ]</p>
I don't think Matsu needs to justify his claims. They seemed to me like some of the same points made in the article quoted in the first posts, if a little un-PC.
I don't love him for it, but he did add "panacea" to my vocabulary. As for "sceptre," however...
Jeff
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: jeffyboy ]</p>
<strong>
None of us are experts here on minority achievement. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I am actually
According to my experience a lot of factors contribute to this.
First of all if you aren´t exposed to a "culture of higher education" in your upbringing (via your neighbours, family etc.) it will do two things to you: The language of acedemica won´t be as known to you as those who did plus the thought of going to college will not occur to you as likely as someone who did. I once made a statistical test of this hypotesis and it showed that children of low skilled workers that went to elementary school or grew up in neighbourhoods with kids of well educated parents had almost the same ratio of college attendencie(sp?) as them while those who didn´t didn´t have it.
A second factor is what is called the "Huey, Dewey, and Louie-effect". In a narrow sense it means that we tend, all through life, to stay in a secure enviroment. That means that we sourround us with people we can decode easily, namely those who look and acts like ourselfs.
One internal and one external effect. Both of them on the microlevel and none of them racists. But on the macrolevel they become causes and create structural barrierers that have showned to be very hard to break. And that goes for all kind of structural indifferencies in society: Gender, class and etnicity.
What does Matsu say? "Yes, I do."
If I said no, they would point out the obvious inconsistencies with other opinions I had expressed , and I would appear defensive, dishonest. Why do that? I choose instead to give people what they want, with a twist, for the second part of my answer was not entirely expected:
"Yes, I do, but I have the same problem taking orders from men."
Confused looks.
"Why not ask me that? Do I have trouble taking orders from people?"
"Because this is a Women's Studies class." (Which, BTW, it wasn't, it was a philosophy class, but anyway...)
I reply, "If you look for sexism, you can find it whether it exists or not, you can create it. Who is more biased, I who answer your question, or you who set a snare with every question? A colleague in a discipline that sets out with sexist questions to begin with? You seem to have an interest in forcing me to answer one way or another, but what if I want to reject the question?"
Unease, funny silence... I was not so refined then; as punishment for this and other exchanges she gave me B+, Ah well.
My point is that asking why minority children do poorly automatically singles them out. I makes your answer sound racist unless you carefully tailor it against that appearance. I don't do that. You did not ask about white children, and you should have, because they too do poorly out of stupidity. A different sort of stupidity, and not as heavily propagandized/enforced, yet juvenile and stupid are virtually interchangeable for white and black kids alike.
I can give you many long answers about why Black kids fail. But I think you will find that it is not Black kids who fail, rather black neighborhoods. The first case you must visit is linguistic: Ebonics. The second case is propaganda, entertainment and popular depiction -- the social pressure placed on children to enact a "black" caricature and how it differs to the rewards and punishments of enacting "whiteness". These go much deeper than stereotypes. To say stereotype would imply that whites generally propel these images as an easy (lazy) mental heuristic, a cognitive prototype gone externalized. You will find that the genesis (at least among young people) is the black community itself, quite apart from the white deficiencies of understanding.
Err, damnit, like a poor bastard I have to work today, so I'll finish this later. But, if you investigate what I say, you will have enough to tools to distinguish racism from criticism rather than have gut reactions to unpalatable statements.
<strong>Show me an ebonics talking corn row wearing rap wannabe and I'll show you a kid with next to no future.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I understand the gist (or is that jist?) of what you're trying to say, but statements like this are racist. I imagine you're not really racist, and just trying to force people to think, but that doesn't mean you didn't use racist statements in your examples.
The implication in your post is that a black person who speak in ebonics, wears corn rows and like rap music has next to no future. That's dangerous language. You're speaking of an individual, not of that individual's culture.
Of course at the same time, I'll bet a White Trash speaking, dreadlock wearing, Vanilla Ica wannabe has a better chance of succeeding in the USA.
<strong>
I understand the gist (or is that jist?) of what you're trying to say, but statements like this are racist. I imagine you're not really racist, and just trying to force people to think, but that doesn't mean you didn't use racist statements in your examples.
The implication in your post is that a black person who speak in ebonics, wears corn rows and like rap music has next to no future. That's dangerous language. You're speaking of an individual, not of that individual's culture.
Of course at the same time, I'll bet a White Trash speaking, dreadlock wearing, Vanilla Ica wannabe has a better chance of succeeding in the USA.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What it sounds like you are describing is what many in the black community call a "wigger." I honestly would not put their chances of success as being any higher than the members of that community who happen to be black. Especially if they practice the extensive partying, lack of responsibility , reliance on government, and criminality that much rap music today seems to suggest. There are aspects of this in all cultures. There are plenty of country songs that talk about partying, drinking away your troubles, and criminal acts as well.
Matsu mentions this...
They do badly for fairly obvious reasons that now have almost nothing to do with the system.
What about a long, greasy haired, chain-smoking, beer guzzling, country listening( or deadhead listening), southern drawling (or california dude'ing) white guy?
I have read several times that the level of poverty among whites and blacks is generally the same. (You will definately read this a lot from black civil rights groups who say that welfare is alwasy associated with single, black women) However the difference is that black poverty will be confined to one neighborhood while white poverty is spread out a lot more.
If a white person were to speak in a manner that defined a poor understanding of English structures or lack of education, do we honestly picture them working somewhere besides Walmart? I know plenty of folks who are not successful educationally and I don't ever see them doing more than 6-8 dollar an hour work at places like Rite-Aide, Walmart, Kmart, etc.
Matsu appears to be pounding a point so hard it is in danger of not being made.(you have to get past the harshness)
Nick
<strong>
None of us are experts here on minority achievement. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Can we have an article or something? Go googling
What are the credentials for being an "expert on minority achievement?"
I just wondered since you brought it up.
Having, involving, or demonstrating great skill, dexterity, or knowledge as the result of experience or training.
By this definition I would consider myself and expert. 15 years of educational experience in minority neighborhoods (at times living, not just working) has definately given me experience. I have college training dealing with limited english and language differences, ethnic and cultural differences, and multiculturalism.
Since you declare that I can't be an expert, what is your definition?
Nick
I'm sure, given the chance, he would've informed Einstein that he's "all wrong".
Don't take it personally, Nick. You're just never going to "get it". Like me and hundreds of others around here. Just sit back and marvel (and learn from) The Master.
Thought I'd head off any chance of THAT particular statement being made again...
<strong>
Definitely no racism in the USA....
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Matsu is Canadian.
<strong>
Matsu is Canadian.
Best
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<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />