For now. The whole android thing is a passing fad. In the not too far future you will see iOS tablets, phones and Windows 8 tablets, phones, etc ... Microsoft has been making some incredibly inept moves, but despite these there are a lot of top people there. It's only a matter of time.
MS has some talented people but they're hamstrung by a hopeless corporate structure. MS is addicted to the windows brand and concept, even in the face of all reason. Windows Phone 7 conjours up in the consumer's mind the horrible idea that windows is running on the phone. A lot of people probably never even saw the pretty Metro interface, they were too worried they'd end up having to use windows on a smartphone. They should have used a different brand name, MSphone, Xphone, heck - zunephone would have been better. WP7 is completely failing to penentrate the channel, and that's not coming from it's enemies - that's coming from its advocates
Microsoft's insistence that Win-8 tablets will be able to run all Win-8 programs actually feeds into that. Win-8 tablet software will likely end up feeling like it was intended for the desktop and had a half assed repurposing to the tablet. If that's the case Win-8 tablets will manage to even further degrade MS' chances with WP7.
Back in the 90s MS had the ability to ship any old crap, and thanks to its windows monopoly, consumers had to buy it.
Now decades later MS is actually producing some nice products, but thanks to its windows association, consumers aren't interested.
Yup, well said. I've seen similar comments from current MS employees. If MS could preserve the basis of Windows 8 without all the legacy crap they might stand a chance on tablet devices. But can they do it?
Microsoft's position is that a tablet should be is just another PC form factor. This has been their position for the past 10 years.
Apple sees the tablet as a different device. For Apple a tablet is a scaled up phone, not a traditional PC.
For Apple, the writing on the wall is probably the allusions Jobs made at his iOS 5/Lion keynote presentation -- he sees the traditional PC itself as in an evolutionary state, on its way to becoming just another "iDevice" -- an even more scaled-up iPhone, if you like -- with everything becoming extensions of the cloud.
Does it really make a difference at this point? If MS *still* hasn't released a viable tablet what makes them think anyone will care when the iPad has already run away with show? Same thing goes for WP7.
It's always "next year", and "it's a process."
Will MS be trying to shoehorn an unoptimized desktop OS into a tablet next year? Because if it'll be like what we saw in a recent promo video of theirs they might as well pack it in and avoid the embarrassment entirely. Watching Excel on that thing was just painful. Yikes!
For Apple, the writing on the wall is probably the allusions Jobs made at his iOS 5/Lion keynote presentation -- he sees the traditional PC itself as in an evolutionary state, on its way to becoming just another "iDevice" -- an even more scaled-up iPhone, if you like -- with everything becoming extensions of the cloud.
Indeed. That's just it, PC's are the way they are not because that's what people needed, but because its what the engineers at the companies wanted. THEY wanted general purpose machines you could open up and tinker with. From every graph I've seen, that represents something like 15% of the market. The other 85% never asked or wanted the complex machines that resulted.
Time is never running out in the technology market. Success of one product never guarantees success of the next. MS might not win this year, or even the next 5 years, but there Windows revenue isn't going anywhere for at least 10 years so they have time.
It also matters very little what there competitors do. For example Nintendo / Sega once had the best consols, then it was Sony, then Microsoft, then Nintendo before going back to Microsoft. There's no loyalty even when you have hundreads of pounds worth of games. The same thing in the phone market, Nokia was king, then for a while everyone had a Motorola Razr before Apple came in with the iPhone. Apple now either have to guess the next form factor or in 5 years time someone else will.
So really any talk of time running out is actually a load of rubbish. These are after all expensive gadgets that go out of date in a couple of years. People don't have that much loyalty, and those that do arn't necesseraly loyal in a way that means they will buy another one. There's probably loads of loyal Nintendo Wii fans out there, doesn't mean they've bought anything new in the past year. What's the point in a new Smartphone or Tablet if it just looks and does basically everything the last one did, or if you can just buy an app for 1.99 that fills in the missing functionality.
Will windows 7 phones be able to upgrade to windows 8?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Apple has seen fit to include prior year models in their OS upgrades, I cannot see why they can't do the same with a Windows phone...
Will Android phones be able to upgrade to Honeycomb?
if not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Will iPhones be able to upgrade to the iPad iOS?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
All Ballmer is saying is that MS is going to try to make Windows more like OS X with a computer and a tablet version. The primary difference is they want to run legacy apps in while in the tablet format.
When does this make sense? When your vision is that the primary tablet format is a lot more like the Asus EeePad Transformer and less like the Galaxy Tab or iPad. The Asus is a NICE android tablet for the price and with one more rev of refinements and Win8 + Office 2012 ARM it (and others like it) would take over the netbook and low end laptop market.
This is a helluva lot better strategy than direct head to head vs Apple like Honeycomb vs iOS. Folks that think that MS has a chance in hell against the iPad while Steve is still at the helm are insane. As crazy as Ballmer acts sometimes, even he's not that crazy.
The EeePad transformer is the perfect price/power combo if it ran an ARM version of Windows with MS Office ported over. IPS display, 1 GB RAM, microSD, a keyboard that doubles the power capacity, has a trackpad and USB, solid build quality and cheap. Decent keyboard for a netbook class device.
Will Android phones be able to upgrade to Honeycomb?
if not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Will iPhones be able to upgrade to the iPad iOS?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
All Ballmer is saying is that MS is going to try to make Windows more like OS X with a computer and a tablet version. The primary difference is they want to run legacy apps in while in the tablet format.
btw WHY would anybody run LEGACY application on iPad? it is worst idea that I ever heard!
desktop PC and desktop OS will shrink to 10% and will stay only as host to Adobe, AutoCad, Logic, Maya, 3D Max, xCode, VisualStudio...
90% of ppl WILL use tablets (with tablet OS and UI) for consuming multimedia content, play games, chatting, browsing, sorting photos, edit home video...
Ballmer has issued a throwdown that just begs for a pithy response from SJ if he participates in the July 19 Q3 earnings conference call. I haven't forgotten last October's call when he pronounced 7" tablets DOA.
btw WHY would anybody run LEGACY application on iPad? it is worst idea that I ever heard!
You wouldn't on an iPad.
But you would on a Eee Pad Transformer in notebook mode. Moreso if it's running x86 vs ARM since it has actual legacy apps. On the ARM, at best you can run Java programs (maybe) and perhaps some pure .net managed code applications.
Windows as a tablet os? Thats your big idea? Tablets have been running windows for years and no one wanted them. Whats gonna change that? The fact they run arm? The new start menu layer? Were people holding these tablets wrong all this time? Miscrosoft needs to move its headquarters to mountain view so theycan stay abreast of all the cool new tech going on in the world. Hell even Motorola (which is my hometown enemy has more tablets on the shelves then ive ever seen for any windows tablet. (though they probably have same sellout hehehe)
So MS is giving us Windows, with all its legacy software, in a tablet form. What's the play here? Since it's not wise to compete with iOS head to head, they plan to give us a desktop OS with a touch friendly UI layer. So we should carry around a full OS even though we don't need all its features. How much memory will it use (or waste), how much disk space will it need (Windows 7 takes up 3GB on dvd right? iOS, according to wikipedia, "uses roughly 660 megabytes of the device's storage"), how much processing power will it use that could be better spent on apps (if that matters)?
Will the device be permanently attached to a keyboard? If so, then it's a notebook. If not, then detaching it renders the Windows7 (I say Win7 since legacy will be supported) part useless, since it's (and most of its apps) not optimized for touch. I assume then that the Win8 touch layer will be running, and Win7 part will be disabled. Still begs the question of hdd usage.
So then the Win8 touch layer will be competing directly against iPad. With the iPad's vast app numbers and powerful iOS platform features, will Win8 touch be able to compete? Would people rather buy an iPad and buy/keep a Win7 laptop?
Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.
"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.
The difference is that Apple is smart enough to see that the small devices are not capable of doing what a 'pc' (full blown os) can do and give a great user experience. microsoft has always tried to load their bloated sh*t onto 'mobile' devices and we see how well that went over. apple is smart and adding features that provide value and work with the overall interface and don't bring the platform down. MS just wants to slap that crap they have been peddling onto devices and hold out their hand for your money. did you see that Windows 8 youtube video? what a typcial ms design. take phone interface and slap it on windows 7. its so obvious when you watch them switch between applications that that is what is going on. Then look at Lion. absolutely beautiful.
I love how everyone is trying to draw some kind of line between Tablets and PCs. PC = Personal Computer, a tablet is just a computer in a different form factor - I don't see anyone making a clear distinction between desktops and notebooks despite the form factor (which woulld essentially be the same thing).
With that aside, if balmer says tablets are PCs, where are ye iPad sales figures in all of this?
Yes, and treating tablets as PCs has been going on since the days of Windows 3.1. That is apparently the winning formula, so what's your point? Everyone owns a Windows tablet, and they are just PCs without keyboards.
10 years of utter failure at "windows everywhere" - total embarrassment in mobile by that no-experience-in-the-market upstart Apple... and yet they have learned nothing?
What's that definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result?
See, that's the genius behind Microsoft's admittedly-late, but refreshing insight - tablets, at their core, are PCs. We get email, movies, music, documents, photos and virtually all of our content through these devices, they just look and interact differently.
Let's dispel the myth right now - There is *NO* tablet market right now. None. There is only the iPad market. Why has the iPad succeeded in 15 short months where all others have failed? Because people have the same dilemma with existing Android and Windows tablets today that they did for the iPad a year ago. "If I have a PC and a phone, why do I need this third thing?"
Apple was very careful with the timing and release of the iPad. They didn't release a product and hope people caught onto the idea of using it. They made absolutely sure that their entire existing ecosystem of devices, software and services were in place to support the product when it finally shipped. Everyone said the iPad is a blown up iPhone. Well guess what, they were right! And that is every reason why the iPad works - it took everything that consumers loved about the iPhone and made it that much better.
Compare that strategy with Android and WebOS, where they have decent hardware on the market with none of the ecosystem to back it up. Google is struggling to get some sort of movie and music system working for Android while WebOS is slapping together 3rd party services to fill in the missing pieces of their platform, pieces which are already coherent and mature on competing platforms (Kindle for books, Skype for videochat, etc).
Microsoft is *finally* taking the hint here, and thus was born Windows 8. We have yet to see how this will all play out, but what Microsoft is saying is all of these devices, laptops, PCs, tablets, phones, etc, really all do the same thing. Microsoft is unifying their entire ecosystem around the new Windows 8 UI in hopes to provide a consistent experience for both developers and consumers across ALL of their devices. You won't have to make the distinction between a tablet device and a "real" computer - you simply pick up the device you want, and enjoy that clean experience no matter what you choose with all the power of a "real" computer behind it.
That's what Microsoft is betting on, and time will tell if their huge gamble pays off. The tip off will be how much Apple adopts this philosophy into their own products, if at all, as iOS and Mac OS X continue to blur together.
Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.
"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.
Yes, Windows 8 shares a lot of similarities with OSX Lion. They both have added elements from their mobile OS and they both aren't quite ready to be a great tablet OS. The main difference is that Apple recognizes the second point and Microsoft doesn't.
Comments
For now. The whole android thing is a passing fad. In the not too far future you will see iOS tablets, phones and Windows 8 tablets, phones, etc ... Microsoft has been making some incredibly inept moves, but despite these there are a lot of top people there. It's only a matter of time.
philip
Time's running out...
MS has some talented people but they're hamstrung by a hopeless corporate structure. MS is addicted to the windows brand and concept, even in the face of all reason. Windows Phone 7 conjours up in the consumer's mind the horrible idea that windows is running on the phone. A lot of people probably never even saw the pretty Metro interface, they were too worried they'd end up having to use windows on a smartphone. They should have used a different brand name, MSphone, Xphone, heck - zunephone would have been better. WP7 is completely failing to penentrate the channel, and that's not coming from it's enemies - that's coming from its advocates
http://wptattletale.com/
Microsoft's insistence that Win-8 tablets will be able to run all Win-8 programs actually feeds into that. Win-8 tablet software will likely end up feeling like it was intended for the desktop and had a half assed repurposing to the tablet. If that's the case Win-8 tablets will manage to even further degrade MS' chances with WP7.
Back in the 90s MS had the ability to ship any old crap, and thanks to its windows monopoly, consumers had to buy it.
Now decades later MS is actually producing some nice products, but thanks to its windows association, consumers aren't interested.
Yup, well said. I've seen similar comments from current MS employees. If MS could preserve the basis of Windows 8 without all the legacy crap they might stand a chance on tablet devices. But can they do it?
A few people have said the same thing.
Microsoft's position is that a tablet should be is just another PC form factor. This has been their position for the past 10 years.
Apple sees the tablet as a different device. For Apple a tablet is a scaled up phone, not a traditional PC.
For Apple, the writing on the wall is probably the allusions Jobs made at his iOS 5/Lion keynote presentation -- he sees the traditional PC itself as in an evolutionary state, on its way to becoming just another "iDevice" -- an even more scaled-up iPhone, if you like -- with everything becoming extensions of the cloud.
It's always "next year", and "it's a process."
Will MS be trying to shoehorn an unoptimized desktop OS into a tablet next year? Because if it'll be like what we saw in a recent promo video of theirs they might as well pack it in and avoid the embarrassment entirely. Watching Excel on that thing was just painful. Yikes!
For Apple, the writing on the wall is probably the allusions Jobs made at his iOS 5/Lion keynote presentation -- he sees the traditional PC itself as in an evolutionary state, on its way to becoming just another "iDevice" -- an even more scaled-up iPhone, if you like -- with everything becoming extensions of the cloud.
Indeed. That's just it, PC's are the way they are not because that's what people needed, but because its what the engineers at the companies wanted. THEY wanted general purpose machines you could open up and tinker with. From every graph I've seen, that represents something like 15% of the market. The other 85% never asked or wanted the complex machines that resulted.
Time's running out...
Time is never running out in the technology market. Success of one product never guarantees success of the next. MS might not win this year, or even the next 5 years, but there Windows revenue isn't going anywhere for at least 10 years so they have time.
It also matters very little what there competitors do. For example Nintendo / Sega once had the best consols, then it was Sony, then Microsoft, then Nintendo before going back to Microsoft. There's no loyalty even when you have hundreads of pounds worth of games. The same thing in the phone market, Nokia was king, then for a while everyone had a Motorola Razr before Apple came in with the iPhone. Apple now either have to guess the next form factor or in 5 years time someone else will.
So really any talk of time running out is actually a load of rubbish. These are after all expensive gadgets that go out of date in a couple of years. People don't have that much loyalty, and those that do arn't necesseraly loyal in a way that means they will buy another one. There's probably loads of loyal Nintendo Wii fans out there, doesn't mean they've bought anything new in the past year. What's the point in a new Smartphone or Tablet if it just looks and does basically everything the last one did, or if you can just buy an app for 1.99 that fills in the missing functionality.
Will windows 7 phones be able to upgrade to windows 8?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Apple has seen fit to include prior year models in their OS upgrades, I cannot see why they can't do the same with a Windows phone...
Will Android phones be able to upgrade to Honeycomb?
if not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Will iPhones be able to upgrade to the iPad iOS?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
All Ballmer is saying is that MS is going to try to make Windows more like OS X with a computer and a tablet version. The primary difference is they want to run legacy apps in while in the tablet format.
When does this make sense? When your vision is that the primary tablet format is a lot more like the Asus EeePad Transformer and less like the Galaxy Tab or iPad. The Asus is a NICE android tablet for the price and with one more rev of refinements and Win8 + Office 2012 ARM it (and others like it) would take over the netbook and low end laptop market.
This is a helluva lot better strategy than direct head to head vs Apple like Honeycomb vs iOS. Folks that think that MS has a chance in hell against the iPad while Steve is still at the helm are insane. As crazy as Ballmer acts sometimes, even he's not that crazy.
The EeePad transformer is the perfect price/power combo if it ran an ARM version of Windows with MS Office ported over. IPS display, 1 GB RAM, microSD, a keyboard that doubles the power capacity, has a trackpad and USB, solid build quality and cheap. Decent keyboard for a netbook class device.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/Asus-E..._Laptop_review
I'd love to have a MBA designed like this.
Will Android phones be able to upgrade to Honeycomb?
if not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
Will iPhones be able to upgrade to the iPad iOS?
If not, why would anyone in their right mind buy one?
All Ballmer is saying is that MS is going to try to make Windows more like OS X with a computer and a tablet version. The primary difference is they want to run legacy apps in while in the tablet format.
you can already run legacy apps on tablets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ZRTEOh0v8
:P
btw WHY would anybody run LEGACY application on iPad? it is worst idea that I ever heard!
desktop PC and desktop OS will shrink to 10% and will stay only as host to Adobe, AutoCad, Logic, Maya, 3D Max, xCode, VisualStudio...
90% of ppl WILL use tablets (with tablet OS and UI) for consuming multimedia content, play games, chatting, browsing, sorting photos, edit home video...
btw WHY would anybody run LEGACY application on iPad? it is worst idea that I ever heard!
You wouldn't on an iPad.
But you would on a Eee Pad Transformer in notebook mode. Moreso if it's running x86 vs ARM since it has actual legacy apps. On the ARM, at best you can run Java programs (maybe) and perhaps some pure .net managed code applications.
Will the device be permanently attached to a keyboard? If so, then it's a notebook. If not, then detaching it renders the Windows7 (I say Win7 since legacy will be supported) part useless, since it's (and most of its apps) not optimized for touch. I assume then that the Win8 touch layer will be running, and Win7 part will be disabled. Still begs the question of hdd usage.
So then the Win8 touch layer will be competing directly against iPad. With the iPad's vast app numbers and powerful iOS platform features, will Win8 touch be able to compete? Would people rather buy an iPad and buy/keep a Win7 laptop?
Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.
"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.
The difference is that Apple is smart enough to see that the small devices are not capable of doing what a 'pc' (full blown os) can do and give a great user experience. microsoft has always tried to load their bloated sh*t onto 'mobile' devices and we see how well that went over. apple is smart and adding features that provide value and work with the overall interface and don't bring the platform down. MS just wants to slap that crap they have been peddling onto devices and hold out their hand for your money. did you see that Windows 8 youtube video? what a typcial ms design. take phone interface and slap it on windows 7. its so obvious when you watch them switch between applications that that is what is going on. Then look at Lion. absolutely beautiful.
I love how everyone is trying to draw some kind of line between Tablets and PCs. PC = Personal Computer, a tablet is just a computer in a different form factor - I don't see anyone making a clear distinction between desktops and notebooks despite the form factor (which woulld essentially be the same thing).
With that aside, if balmer says tablets are PCs, where are ye iPad sales figures in all of this?
Yes, and treating tablets as PCs has been going on since the days of Windows 3.1. That is apparently the winning formula, so what's your point? Everyone owns a Windows tablet, and they are just PCs without keyboards.
Wow. Just wow.
10 years of utter failure at "windows everywhere" - total embarrassment in mobile by that no-experience-in-the-market upstart Apple... and yet they have learned nothing?
What's that definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result?
See, that's the genius behind Microsoft's admittedly-late, but refreshing insight - tablets, at their core, are PCs. We get email, movies, music, documents, photos and virtually all of our content through these devices, they just look and interact differently.
Let's dispel the myth right now - There is *NO* tablet market right now. None. There is only the iPad market. Why has the iPad succeeded in 15 short months where all others have failed? Because people have the same dilemma with existing Android and Windows tablets today that they did for the iPad a year ago. "If I have a PC and a phone, why do I need this third thing?"
Apple was very careful with the timing and release of the iPad. They didn't release a product and hope people caught onto the idea of using it. They made absolutely sure that their entire existing ecosystem of devices, software and services were in place to support the product when it finally shipped. Everyone said the iPad is a blown up iPhone. Well guess what, they were right! And that is every reason why the iPad works - it took everything that consumers loved about the iPhone and made it that much better.
Compare that strategy with Android and WebOS, where they have decent hardware on the market with none of the ecosystem to back it up. Google is struggling to get some sort of movie and music system working for Android while WebOS is slapping together 3rd party services to fill in the missing pieces of their platform, pieces which are already coherent and mature on competing platforms (Kindle for books, Skype for videochat, etc).
Microsoft is *finally* taking the hint here, and thus was born Windows 8. We have yet to see how this will all play out, but what Microsoft is saying is all of these devices, laptops, PCs, tablets, phones, etc, really all do the same thing. Microsoft is unifying their entire ecosystem around the new Windows 8 UI in hopes to provide a consistent experience for both developers and consumers across ALL of their devices. You won't have to make the distinction between a tablet device and a "real" computer - you simply pick up the device you want, and enjoy that clean experience no matter what you choose with all the power of a "real" computer behind it.
That's what Microsoft is betting on, and time will tell if their huge gamble pays off. The tip off will be how much Apple adopts this philosophy into their own products, if at all, as iOS and Mac OS X continue to blur together.
Actually many M$ bashers have grabbed a hold of this story and expounded the usual rants. Point is that he is correct. How long did we have to listen to Google/pundits repeatedly say that Android 2.x was NOT a tablet OS. There is obviously a difference between the user experience on a tablet and a phone. Since Apple designed it right from the get-go, they could leverage effectively a single OS on both platforms. Google and M$ didn't share that same foresight. If anything else, M$ is doing the right thing based on what Google went through. Don't get side tracked by the press/vocal minority. Concentrate on the bigger picture because reactive answers will be trounced soundly and are a non-starter.
"Tablets are PC's", well, that's marketing speak, and why not? Everyone (at least Apple fans) seem to be thinking "oh, here they go again, trying to elevate tablets as touch PC's", when, if you listen carefully, what they're talking about is really migrating PC's (at least the OS) closer to tablets. Which, if you look at Apple with Lion, they are not alone in doing.
Yes, Windows 8 shares a lot of similarities with OSX Lion. They both have added elements from their mobile OS and they both aren't quite ready to be a great tablet OS. The main difference is that Apple recognizes the second point and Microsoft doesn't.