I agree with what you wrote, but I also think that it's pretty much impossible for them to have gotten it right on the first try, as they both basically copied whatever Apple came out with.
That's exactly my point. They sacrificed quality for a quicker release to compete. Even if they said "oh wow, look at the iPhone... let's go touchscreen!" they should have taken the proper time to do it right. Even if it took longer to ship... they'd have a stronger product today.
Then again... the strategy of "we didn't do it first, but we did it best" could also be used to accuse them of copying Apple. (not by product but by method)
And with regards to you Apple ][, I love my Apple products as much as the next guy, but your comments really make me sick. You look utterly ignorant in about half of your posts. Sure, you're totally anonymous here on the internet, but have a little respect for yourself.
Ignorant would mean that you're claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about.
You are welcome to refute anything that I've written in this thread, if you feel that something is incorrect. Otherwise, whining will get you nowhere.
Watching a movie or playing a game on a non-touch device is very different than actually interacting with a touch screen device. It is very frustrating and extremely noticeable when a touch screen device is laggy, jerky and unsmooth.
Naturally those things make experience worse. But they are largely quantifiable things. When you say there are seconds of lag, that's an actual time unit. Please be more specific with your criticism: what devices, what software, what situation?
I disagree that playing a game on screen is very different, BTW. There are certain games (mainly ports of arcade games) which I would simply not buy if a review tells me they fail to reach 60Hz, because lag is so completely destructive to those experiences.
Quote:
Take the Kindle Fire for example. I've seen more than a few good quality videos of that in action, and if anybody denies that it is laggy, jerky, choppy and unsmooth, then they are definitely lying or they have very poor eyesight.
No, I will not take Kindle Fire for example. It's an almost-bottom-of-the-barrel product, built on an ancient version of Android that is not designed for tablets, and tuned by Amazon. Amazon doesn't even call it an "Android" device, which I commend them for.
Naturally those things make experience worse. But they are largely quantifiable things. When you say there are seconds of lag, that's an actual time unit. Please be more specific with your criticism: what devices, what software, what situation?
You're acting as if you never heard anybody mention anything about Android lag before. People have been talking about it on various sites for ages now, ever since Android was first introduced. There is plenty of evidence on the internet all over the place. It's been mentioned in countless reviews for a variety of different devices.
This whole thread and the article in the OP is about Android in general. It is a problem that exists on the Android OS, though some of the newer devices attempt to mask the problem with the OS by using brute force and more powerful CPU's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
I disagree that playing a game on screen is very different, BTW. There are certain games (mainly ports of arcade games) which I would simply not buy if a review tells me they fail to reach 60Hz, because lag is so completely destructive to those experiences.
I'm no expert on gaming, but I thought that Hz has more to do with the monitor/tv than the software. I always see frames per second being used when people talk about how good games run. But I agree that having a good framerate for a game is pretty important. I don't often play games, but when I do, it has to be on a powerful machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon
No, I will not take Kindle Fire for example. It's an almost-bottom-of-the-barrel product, built on an ancient version of Android that is not designed for tablets, and tuned by Amazon. Amazon doesn't even call it an "Android" device, which I commend them for.
So you can name an Android tablet then. Which one do you claim does not suffer from any lag, choppiness and has a smooth operation?
9to5 had an article on this a few days ago. The "lag" referred to here is real, and has been addressed in many ways in ICS according to them. New API's, reworking display layering, etc. have made the experience much improved. Rather than quote an entire page, if anyone is interested in reading a much cleaner and easier to understand explanation of the causes and changes, here's the link:
For those that don't feel it's worth the time to read, continue on with posting misinformation.
EDIT 12/11:
Andrew Munn, the source for this story, has now modified his views on Android. To quote "BEFORE READING: A LOT OF MY ANALYSIS OF ANDROID PERFORMANCE IS WRONG, HOWEVER I AM LEAVING THIS POST UP BECAUSE OF MY COMMENTARY ON THE ISSUE."
Or the lag on an iPhone 4 running iOS5. My iP4 is stupidly laggy since the update, it's almost like going back to my old iPhone 3G.
You might want to do a restore. iOS5 runs silky smooth on both of my iPhone 4 handsets and thats with lots of apps running, including Co-Pilot in the background.
You're acting as if you never heard anybody mention anything about Android lag before. People have been talking about it on various sites for ages now, ever since Android was first introduced. There is plenty of evidence on the internet all over the place. It's been mentioned in countless reviews for a variety of different devices.
I have heard mentions of it. So has everyone else. That's exactly why you should stop repeating these general statements ad nauseaum. Specifics contribute to the discussion, repeating what has already been said does not. Compare these discussions --
A: [Specific Android 3.0 tablet] lags in ways X, Y, Z.
B: Z seems to be unique to the device. X should be fixed in 4.0 but problem W will still be there.
(week goes by)
A: W is probably because Q. BTW, iOS5 doesn't do Q so it has no W problem, but it has trouble with S which is related.
B: Looks like the upcoming 4.1 fixes Y
A: Android is laggy
B: Android is buggy
(week goes by)
A: Android is laggy
B: Android is buggy
What kind of discussion would you like to have?
Quote:
I'm no expert on gaming, but I thought that Hz has more to do with the monitor/tv than the software. I always see frames per second being used when people talk about how good games run. But I agree that having a good framerate for a game is pretty important. I don't often play games, but when I do, it has to be on a powerful machine.
Hz is just s^-1, basic physics, so I can use it to describe framerate, screen refresh rate, game logic and whatnot.
Quote:
So you can name an Android tablet then. Which one do you claim does not suffer from any lag, choppiness and has a smooth operation?
9to5 had an article on this a few days ago. The "lag" referred to here is real, and has been addressed in many ways in ICS according to them. New API's, reworking display layering, etc. have made the experience much improved. Rather than quote an entire page, if anyone is interested in reading a much cleaner and easier to understand explanation of the causes and changes, here's the link:
I have heard mentions of it. So has everyone else. That's exactly why you should stop repeating these general statements ad nauseaum. Specifics contribute to the discussion, repeating what has already been said does not.
Specifics have been discussed here before, whenever there is a topic about a specific tablet. The most recent tablet that is getting specifically talked about is the Kindle Fire, since that it is the one that is most recent and in the news and on this forum. You mentioned that it's practically bottom of the barrel, and I obviously agree with that, but other tablets have been talked about here that were not supposed to be bottom of the barrel.
I remember specifics being talked about other tablets, like the Xoom and the Touchpad a while ago on this forum.
For those that don't feel it's worth the time to read, continue on with posting misinformation.
The article basically confirms that those people (like me) who have been calling Android laggy and choppy all this time have been 100% correct, and anybody denying that was living in a perverse fantasy world and they were wrong, as even Google's engineers are now attempting to explain the problems they've been having and what they're trying to do to fix it.
Specifics have been discussed here before, whenever there is a topic about a specific tablet. The most recent tablet that is getting specifically talked about is the Kindle Fire, since that it is the one that is most recent and in the news and on this forum. You mentioned that it's practically bottom of the barrel, and I obviously agree with that, but other tablets have been talked about here that were not supposed to be bottom of the barrel.
I remember specifics being talked about other tablets, like the Xoom and the Touchpad a while ago on this forum.
I'm sure you have on occasion made insightful posts in other threads. It doesn't follow that it's cool to spout empty and/or unfounded generalities in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
And that [lag] is one of the main reasons why every Android device has sucked so far.
Emphasis mine. In which ways does the Galaxy Nexus or the Galaxy S II lag so badly it makes the whole device suck?
Quote:
Some pathetic people even go as far as denying that there is any lag on Android. They're either serial liars or they're blind.
Who says this? If it's a lone nutcase, why does it matter what he says? Why would you even bother to insult him?
Many ardent Apple fans molest children. In light of statistics that's almost certainly a true statement, but the only reason to say it is to associate ardent Apple fans with child molestation where no actual correlation exists.
Quote:
On a touch screen device, all user interaction needs to be instantaneous, not seconds after you press something. And everything needs to be smooth, not jerky.
Do all Android devices have seconds of lag? Any 4.0 devices? 3.2 devices?
On my VIZIO Tablet with Android 2.3, the app launcher suffers serious lag! I had attributed it to the hardware, but I suspect the OS shares some of the blame!
Just as I thought. iOS is a real-time operating system. It is harder to master, but infinitely more efficient than a run-time virtual machine that "interpret" instructions on the fly like the Android.
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
Is there an explanation for the UI lag on iPhone 3G running IOS 4, even with the IOS update that was supposed to address that?
I'd argue that, iOS 4.0 GM aside, the 3G generally acknowledges your input and THEN takes forever to complete the requested action. Even today, scrolling an already loaded web page on the 3G is flawlessly smooth, even if you quickly get to an unrendered portion of the page. Sure, it shows you the tiled blocks before it paints the image, but it still feels smooth because those blocks move perfectly with your touch. Brand freakin' new Android phones can't manage this yet. Straight out of the box, scrolling a web page appears to happen at maybe 10fps and never does the animation start and stop perfectly in tune with the position of your finger on the screen.
Just as I thought. iOS is a real-time operating system. It is harder to master,
... you say this based on what experience with iOS and Android development?
Quote:
but infinitely more efficient than a run-time virtual machine that "interpret" instructions on the fly like the Android.
"Infinitely more efficient"? Please. Virtual machines have been sporadically reaching close-to-native-compiled performance many years ago. There are more and less efficient ones, but simply knowing the code is running on a virtual machine doesn't tell you much of anything about performance.
Also, it sounds suspiciously like you haven't heard of this thing called Android NDK.
Quote:
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
Same approach Microsoft did with Windows... huh? Are you talking about .NET common language runtime or what?
Just as I thought. iOS is a real-time operating system. It is harder to master, but infinitely more efficient than a run-time virtual machine that "interpret" instructions on the fly like the Android.
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
He said Apple gives UI updates a real time priority. There's a difference between the use of the term real time to refer to thread priority and a true Real Time operating system. That being said, iOS could possibly be classified as a RTOS depending on how its scheduler works, timing predictability, and architecture.
despite what is said in the article, it seems that a smooth UI isn't that high of a priority for google..
Despite how bad I really hated the few times I had to work in Android because of its 'way more beta than even Siri' feeling, this is an intern who probably has little clue about what the upper boys are thinking in terms of priority. Any perception that they don't care is really just his personal view.
And I wouldn't really trust him to know what's up in iOS given a lack of any qualifying data like say just the fact that he's written an app for the device. His only listed qualification to talk about anything was 'intern at Google' and 'undergraduate student'. Not really confidence inspiring. Now give me 'Senior App Engineer for Halfbrick/Rovio/another big app developer that has worked with both systems' and I'd feel more confident
This is going to be in the history books! Having been closely involved in the history of this industry since 1978 this is amazing absolutely amazing, you couldn't write a novel as good as this.
By rushing to copy iOS as soon as Schmidt ran over from his Apple Board seat to spill the beans using their Blackberry copy as a base rather than starting over and ripping off iOS from scratch. It was obviously either a calculated risk based on timing or simply ignorance of what a mess they were creating going the route they did. Lack of any previous knowledge of touch UI most likely means option 2.
I would love to know who pushed for speed over good reverse engineering Microsoft style? if they'd waited to get their hands on iOS Android would work properly?. My money is on Schmidt who must have become obsessed with doing this before Apple realized his duplicity and asked him to resign.
What an ironic corner Google have painted themselves into. It's like Windows all over again, it's a total mess but their own success makes it almost impossible to fix due the sheer number of apps that would cease to work if they brought Android up to iOS standards.
Comments
I agree with what you wrote, but I also think that it's pretty much impossible for them to have gotten it right on the first try, as they both basically copied whatever Apple came out with.
That's exactly my point. They sacrificed quality for a quicker release to compete. Even if they said "oh wow, look at the iPhone... let's go touchscreen!" they should have taken the proper time to do it right. Even if it took longer to ship... they'd have a stronger product today.
Then again... the strategy of "we didn't do it first, but we did it best" could also be used to accuse them of copying Apple. (not by product but by method)
And with regards to you Apple ][, I love my Apple products as much as the next guy, but your comments really make me sick. You look utterly ignorant in about half of your posts. Sure, you're totally anonymous here on the internet, but have a little respect for yourself.
Ignorant would mean that you're claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about.
You are welcome to refute anything that I've written in this thread, if you feel that something is incorrect. Otherwise, whining will get you nowhere.
Watching a movie or playing a game on a non-touch device is very different than actually interacting with a touch screen device. It is very frustrating and extremely noticeable when a touch screen device is laggy, jerky and unsmooth.
Naturally those things make experience worse. But they are largely quantifiable things. When you say there are seconds of lag, that's an actual time unit. Please be more specific with your criticism: what devices, what software, what situation?
I disagree that playing a game on screen is very different, BTW. There are certain games (mainly ports of arcade games) which I would simply not buy if a review tells me they fail to reach 60Hz, because lag is so completely destructive to those experiences.
Take the Kindle Fire for example. I've seen more than a few good quality videos of that in action, and if anybody denies that it is laggy, jerky, choppy and unsmooth, then they are definitely lying or they have very poor eyesight.
No, I will not take Kindle Fire for example. It's an almost-bottom-of-the-barrel product, built on an ancient version of Android that is not designed for tablets, and tuned by Amazon. Amazon doesn't even call it an "Android" device, which I commend them for.
Naturally those things make experience worse. But they are largely quantifiable things. When you say there are seconds of lag, that's an actual time unit. Please be more specific with your criticism: what devices, what software, what situation?
You're acting as if you never heard anybody mention anything about Android lag before. People have been talking about it on various sites for ages now, ever since Android was first introduced. There is plenty of evidence on the internet all over the place. It's been mentioned in countless reviews for a variety of different devices.
This whole thread and the article in the OP is about Android in general. It is a problem that exists on the Android OS, though some of the newer devices attempt to mask the problem with the OS by using brute force and more powerful CPU's.
I disagree that playing a game on screen is very different, BTW. There are certain games (mainly ports of arcade games) which I would simply not buy if a review tells me they fail to reach 60Hz, because lag is so completely destructive to those experiences.
I'm no expert on gaming, but I thought that Hz has more to do with the monitor/tv than the software. I always see frames per second being used when people talk about how good games run. But I agree that having a good framerate for a game is pretty important. I don't often play games, but when I do, it has to be on a powerful machine.
No, I will not take Kindle Fire for example. It's an almost-bottom-of-the-barrel product, built on an ancient version of Android that is not designed for tablets, and tuned by Amazon. Amazon doesn't even call it an "Android" device, which I commend them for.
So you can name an Android tablet then. Which one do you claim does not suffer from any lag, choppiness and has a smooth operation?
http://9to5google.com/2011/12/05/goo...ios-interface/
For those that don't feel it's worth the time to read, continue on with posting misinformation.
EDIT 12/11:
Andrew Munn, the source for this story, has now modified his views on Android. To quote "BEFORE READING: A LOT OF MY ANALYSIS OF ANDROID PERFORMANCE IS WRONG, HOWEVER I AM LEAVING THIS POST UP BECAUSE OF MY COMMENTARY ON THE ISSUE."
https://plus.google.com/100838276097...ts/VDkV9XaJRGS
Or the lag on an iPhone 4 running iOS5. My iP4 is stupidly laggy since the update, it's almost like going back to my old iPhone 3G.
You might want to do a restore. iOS5 runs silky smooth on both of my iPhone 4 handsets and thats with lots of apps running, including Co-Pilot in the background.
You're acting as if you never heard anybody mention anything about Android lag before. People have been talking about it on various sites for ages now, ever since Android was first introduced. There is plenty of evidence on the internet all over the place. It's been mentioned in countless reviews for a variety of different devices.
I have heard mentions of it. So has everyone else. That's exactly why you should stop repeating these general statements ad nauseaum. Specifics contribute to the discussion, repeating what has already been said does not. Compare these discussions --
A: [Specific Android 3.0 tablet] lags in ways X, Y, Z.
B: Z seems to be unique to the device. X should be fixed in 4.0 but problem W will still be there.
(week goes by)
A: W is probably because Q. BTW, iOS5 doesn't do Q so it has no W problem, but it has trouble with S which is related.
B: Looks like the upcoming 4.1 fixes Y
A: Android is laggy
B: Android is buggy
(week goes by)
A: Android is laggy
B: Android is buggy
What kind of discussion would you like to have?
I'm no expert on gaming, but I thought that Hz has more to do with the monitor/tv than the software. I always see frames per second being used when people talk about how good games run. But I agree that having a good framerate for a game is pretty important. I don't often play games, but when I do, it has to be on a powerful machine.
Hz is just s^-1, basic physics, so I can use it to describe framerate, screen refresh rate, game logic and whatnot.
So you can name an Android tablet then. Which one do you claim does not suffer from any lag, choppiness and has a smooth operation?
I haven't made a claim like that.
9to5 had an article on this a few days ago. The "lag" referred to here is real, and has been addressed in many ways in ICS according to them. New API's, reworking display layering, etc. have made the experience much improved. Rather than quote an entire page, if anyone is interested in reading a much cleaner and easier to understand explanation of the causes and changes, here's the link:
http://9to5google.com/2011/12/05/goo...ios-interface/
For those that don't feel it's worth the time to read, continue on with posting misinformation.
the blind fanboyism...
gatorguy.. someone that demonstrates having a serious problem.
what are you doing here? why do you post here?
I have heard mentions of it. So has everyone else. That's exactly why you should stop repeating these general statements ad nauseaum. Specifics contribute to the discussion, repeating what has already been said does not.
Specifics have been discussed here before, whenever there is a topic about a specific tablet. The most recent tablet that is getting specifically talked about is the Kindle Fire, since that it is the one that is most recent and in the news and on this forum. You mentioned that it's practically bottom of the barrel, and I obviously agree with that, but other tablets have been talked about here that were not supposed to be bottom of the barrel.
I remember specifics being talked about other tablets, like the Xoom and the Touchpad a while ago on this forum.
For those that don't feel it's worth the time to read, continue on with posting misinformation.
The article basically confirms that those people (like me) who have been calling Android laggy and choppy all this time have been 100% correct, and anybody denying that was living in a perverse fantasy world and they were wrong, as even Google's engineers are now attempting to explain the problems they've been having and what they're trying to do to fix it.
Specifics have been discussed here before, whenever there is a topic about a specific tablet. The most recent tablet that is getting specifically talked about is the Kindle Fire, since that it is the one that is most recent and in the news and on this forum. You mentioned that it's practically bottom of the barrel, and I obviously agree with that, but other tablets have been talked about here that were not supposed to be bottom of the barrel.
I remember specifics being talked about other tablets, like the Xoom and the Touchpad a while ago on this forum.
I'm sure you have on occasion made insightful posts in other threads. It doesn't follow that it's cool to spout empty and/or unfounded generalities in this thread.
And that [lag] is one of the main reasons why every Android device has sucked so far.
Emphasis mine. In which ways does the Galaxy Nexus or the Galaxy S II lag so badly it makes the whole device suck?
Some pathetic people even go as far as denying that there is any lag on Android. They're either serial liars or they're blind.
Who says this? If it's a lone nutcase, why does it matter what he says? Why would you even bother to insult him?
Many ardent Apple fans molest children. In light of statistics that's almost certainly a true statement, but the only reason to say it is to associate ardent Apple fans with child molestation where no actual correlation exists.
On a touch screen device, all user interaction needs to be instantaneous, not seconds after you press something. And everything needs to be smooth, not jerky.
Do all Android devices have seconds of lag? Any 4.0 devices? 3.2 devices?
Indeed, my iPad IS much smoother.
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
Is there an explanation for the UI lag on iPhone 3G running IOS 4, even with the IOS update that was supposed to address that?
I'd argue that, iOS 4.0 GM aside, the 3G generally acknowledges your input and THEN takes forever to complete the requested action. Even today, scrolling an already loaded web page on the 3G is flawlessly smooth, even if you quickly get to an unrendered portion of the page. Sure, it shows you the tiled blocks before it paints the image, but it still feels smooth because those blocks move perfectly with your touch. Brand freakin' new Android phones can't manage this yet. Straight out of the box, scrolling a web page appears to happen at maybe 10fps and never does the animation start and stop perfectly in tune with the position of your finger on the screen.
Just as I thought. iOS is a real-time operating system. It is harder to master,
... you say this based on what experience with iOS and Android development?
but infinitely more efficient than a run-time virtual machine that "interpret" instructions on the fly like the Android.
"Infinitely more efficient"? Please. Virtual machines have been sporadically reaching close-to-native-compiled performance many years ago. There are more and less efficient ones, but simply knowing the code is running on a virtual machine doesn't tell you much of anything about performance.
Also, it sounds suspiciously like you haven't heard of this thing called Android NDK.
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
Same approach Microsoft did with Windows... huh? Are you talking about .NET common language runtime or what?
iOS is a real-time operating system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_time_operating_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rating_systems
Really?
Just as I thought. iOS is a real-time operating system. It is harder to master, but infinitely more efficient than a run-time virtual machine that "interpret" instructions on the fly like the Android.
Android camp choose to use the Java VM, which helps it to get to market faster, but needs faster hardware to compensate its inefficiencies.
Note, this is the same approach Microsoft did with Windows. We'll see what happens this time around
He said Apple gives UI updates a real time priority. There's a difference between the use of the term real time to refer to thread priority and a true Real Time operating system. That being said, iOS could possibly be classified as a RTOS depending on how its scheduler works, timing predictability, and architecture.
despite what is said in the article, it seems that a smooth UI isn't that high of a priority for google..
Despite how bad I really hated the few times I had to work in Android because of its 'way more beta than even Siri' feeling, this is an intern who probably has little clue about what the upper boys are thinking in terms of priority. Any perception that they don't care is really just his personal view.
And I wouldn't really trust him to know what's up in iOS given a lack of any qualifying data like say just the fact that he's written an app for the device. His only listed qualification to talk about anything was 'intern at Google' and 'undergraduate student'. Not really confidence inspiring. Now give me 'Senior App Engineer for Halfbrick/Rovio/another big app developer that has worked with both systems' and I'd feel more confident
By rushing to copy iOS as soon as Schmidt ran over from his Apple Board seat to spill the beans using their Blackberry copy as a base rather than starting over and ripping off iOS from scratch. It was obviously either a calculated risk based on timing or simply ignorance of what a mess they were creating going the route they did. Lack of any previous knowledge of touch UI most likely means option 2.
I would love to know who pushed for speed over good reverse engineering Microsoft style? if they'd waited to get their hands on iOS Android would work properly?. My money is on Schmidt who must have become obsessed with doing this before Apple realized his duplicity and asked him to resign.
What an ironic corner Google have painted themselves into. It's like Windows all over again, it's a total mess but their own success makes it almost impossible to fix due the sheer number of apps that would cease to work if they brought Android up to iOS standards.