The financial sector accounts for 40% of GDP, but they don't make anything but money. The housing bubble was just the latest symptom of a fake economy. Historically, the financial sector invested in productive enterprises, rather than creating financial instruments to invest in, and then the financial industry accounted for about 5% of GDP. Bring the fake financial sector back down to the historic 5% , and with control of health care costs, the GDP would properly reflect a real GDP of between 1/3 to 1/2 of current GDP.
You said a lot of soft, uninformed things in this post. But saying the financial sector accounts for 40% of GDP is a very hard and very wrong stat. Let's see where you got that number?
So Apple is a premium brand already sold at premium prices, even though competitive with other companies selling comparable product, yet you think Apple could produce everything in the US and still make the same profit because people are willing to pay for American produced goods at highly inflated costs? WHere is the evidence to support this? How much more are you willing to spend for Apple's products? it isn't about manufacturing in the US, but.. every...single... component... made all over the world that would have to be made in the US. As much as I love my iPhone I will not spend thousands of dollars just to get it stamped with Made in the USA. What about other countries? Do they care about their Apple products being made in the US? Are they willing to pay the price for a US made Apple products? What about other products that you want? Do you expect them to create everything within US borders? What about world trade? Is that no longer important? SHould the US have a closed door policy on goods? How would this help the nation with the highest GDP?
Take a breath! A waste of the terrible mind thing.
Other than our illegal Mexican farmworker labor force, what workers in the U.S. can work flexibly, diligently, and hard and in mass quantities and with the willingness to work in hardship like the Chinese workers can.
There is no LARGE group of U.S. workers that will work 6 days a week, be up at any time of the day, that would live in dormatories, that would be willing to give up family and social life to create iPhones.
There is no LARGE group of U.S. workers that have the mental flexibility to change plans and production at a moment's notice like the Chinese. If the job had to change suddenly, workers in the U.S. would complain. Chinese workers would say, yes sir and it will be done immediately.
Again, other than our illegal Mexican farmworker labor force, who can do this in the U.S.? No one.
Unfortunately, U.S. workers are use to having a lot of luxuries that Chinese workers don't even dream of. They wouldn't give up these luxuries to work like slaves.
If you really believe what you wrote then you have the mentality of a perfect slave.
Yes I do believe that some of the 1% are national treasures. I think Jobs was, Stephen Hawking is, as was Einstein, one could argue that Rockefeller Ford, and those who built the infrastructure of the 20th century were as well.
It takes too much energy for me to hate or envy any of these people.
To be clear this is not talking about the Bernie Madoffs of the world, they are criminals, and should be treated as such. Some of the historic 1%ers like Carniege, certainly have a mixed record, remember he single handedly was responsible for the creation of unions (wink wink).
Berners-Lee, Page, Brin, Zuckerberg, etc. are building the 21st century infrastructure, they are 1%ers should we hate them too? These people break a lot of eggs, but they sure do make a bunch of omelets. The jobs will come back to the US and developed countries when we evolve our social structures to figure it out, in the mean time the standard of living in other countries is rising, and that is a good thing.
Be happy to take this to another forum, just name it.
Yes I do believe that some of the 1% are national treasures. I think Jobs was, Stephen Hawking is, as was Einstein, one could argue that Rockefeller Ford, and those who built the infrastructure of the 20th century were as well.
It takes too much energy for me to hate or envy any of these people.
To be clear this is not talking about the Bernie Madoffs of the world, they are criminals, and should be treated as such. Some of the historic 1%ers like Carniege, certainly have a mixed record, remember he single handedly was responsible for the creation of unions (wink wink).
Berners-Lee, Page, Brin, Zuckerberg, etc. are building the 21st century infrastructure, they are 1%ers should we hate them too? These people break a lot of eggs, but they sure do make a bunch of omelets. The jobs will come back to the US and developed countries when we evolve our social structures to figure it out, in the mean time the standard of living in other countries is rising, and that is a good thing.
Be happy to take this to another forum, just name it.
No need to take this further, as long as you clearly realize that the top 1% according to affluence has nothing to do (or, isn't highly correlated) with the top 1% in regard to creativity, inventiveness, hard work and solid morals.
Further, this is to the several posters who suggested that outsourced jobs could not come back to the US due to some shortcoming of american workers, this is pure BS. If you put Americans under the same conditions that workers in Asia have, they would work just as disciplined, hard, and underpaid. Luckily Western societies have for the most part evolved to the degree where people do not need to work 12 hour shifts on a biscuit. And those that claim that Asian workers earn enough, stop comparing them to the rest of the starving population, that's just unfair. Compare them to what the middle class in the west can afford -- not only in terms of providing for one's family, but also in terms of ability to develop personal interests, travel, save for retirement, take good care of one's health...
Very political thread... the mixed-up picture didn't help...
How much looting and rioting happened in Japan during the last nuclear crisis? How has our entitlement society created better workers?
There are so many variables to consider when discussing standards of living and keeping manufacturing jobs here.
Don't forget that when Apple manages to make a world-class product such as an iPad cheaply, millions of Americans buy it and benefit. Our standard of living goes up, even if it's not reflected in wages, per se.
Compare how someone in the middle class lived in the 1970s to 2012. Modern conveniences and all kinds of goods that increase our leisure time enjoyment.
Many of our poor are obese. Our GDP continues to increase, year after year, even after adjusting for inflation. Our consumerism drives innovation. It's a huge, virtuous circle.
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
"Be careful what you wish for" is appropriate for those wanting these jobs in the US because the state this country would have to be in in order to get these jobs to come to America is not something a sane American would want to deal with.
Technology has created a global economy. In order to compete with the world for jobs, we, as Americans and as a country, must be willing to make the same quality product in the same volume for the same price. American workers are just too lazy and spoiled to do that. Hate to say it but it's true, I'm an American employer and, sadly, I see it everyday.
Our time was post WWII until the 1970s. We were hungry and had the mentality that hard work brought good things in life. We've lost that hunger and now it's someone else's turn to feed and get fat....like us.
We can face Mike Daisey's visit to Foxconn, or we can turn away.
The American press, AppleInsider included, has largely chosen to clap its collective hands over its myriad ears and sing "la la la la," but each of us can make our his or her own personal choice. It's analogous to the old saw about people who love sausage best avoiding its manufacture, with the exception that sausage, unlike our electronics, isn't made from human beings. (Though having said that, I'm recalling my high school reading of Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle.")
In that I really would like the world to be a better place for everyone and not just a cooler place for a few, I don't know what I'll do when the new iPad is released. I was planning on getting one, but I don't know if I'll be able to live with it or myself if I do.
Mike Daisy has invited us all to join him on a tour of the sausage factory. Personally, I don't know if I can go on smacking my lips over this tasty stuff, knowing what I know. I'm afraid that - all alone - I'm about to find out that I can. I imagine joining the March of the Fanbois on its way to occupy Cupertino, but we're not going to do that, are we? Are we going to do anything, anything at all?
Well, they're already packed in dorms but we call them public housing projects here don't we. Why not produce some work in order to get that check every month instead of sitting on the stoop watching the world go by.
While regurgitating neocon kant about the welfare state without consideration, analysis, or facts, you're also envying a culture that regards people as disposable cogs in the wheels of the powerful, to be used with consideration of their rights, dignity, or humanity.
And watch what you pray for - America is following in their footsteps. Increasingly, that which is produced by grim slave labor elsewhere is being sold by the same here. The difference between Foxconn and Walmart narrows every day.
The cheap labor will meet their doom with the next generation of Robotics that is coming and you'll will see the bulk of manufacturing be done in shifts by drones of robots and only small groups of engineers overseeing their work.
China's economy will see a huge recession because of it.
I do not really get the problem. Aren't phone assembly lines supposed to be fully automated? Or do they still require manual labor? Do these 100000 Foxconn workers really use screwdrivers?
Yes, except where management has determined that forcing them to use their teeth will increase profits.
Here's everything you need to know, first hand, with no ranting:
Rumors about the wonders of automated manufacturing are what corporations who outsource their labor to wrecked economies and despotic regimes circulate to help us assuage our collective guilt. The quick answer to your question is that anything manufactured in China is made entirely by hand under conditions that make American prisons look like exclusive resorts.
Robots are costly to build, difficult to maintain, and can't simply be thrown away the instant a problem occurs. Automated factories are very expensive, and exist only in places where it's not possible to treat human beings worse than robots. When human beings are literally a dime a dozen, have no rights, no legal recourse, and few choices, people are the robots.
We can face Mike Daisey's visit to Foxconn, or we can turn away.
The American press, AppleInsider included, has largely chosen to clap its collective hands over its myriad ears and sing "la la la la," but each of us can make our his or her own personal choice. It's analogous to the old saw about people who love sausage best avoiding its manufacture, with the exception that sausage, unlike our electronics, isn't made from human beings. (Though having said that, I'm recalling my high school reading of Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle.")
In that I really would like the world to be a better place for everyone and not just a cooler place for a few, I don't know what I'll do when the new iPad is released. I was planning on getting one, but I don't know if I'll be able to live with it or myself if I do.
Mike Daisy has invited us all to join him on a tour of the sausage factory. Personally, I don't know if I can go on smacking my lips over this tasty stuff, knowing what I know. I'm afraid that - all alone - I'm about to find out that I can. I imagine joining the March of the Fanbois on its way to occupy Cupertino, but we're not going to do that, are we? Are we going to do anything, anything at all?
I agree these issues should be looked at but it seems unfair to put the whole blame on Apple when they are the only company (that I know of) that is insisting on higher standards from the companies they do business with. If you're inclined to not buy an iPad for these reasons then you probably shouldn't look into the manufacturing of most of the items for sale in any store. You'll end up naked since there's a good chance you're clothes are made in china. Hungry too since you're kitchen appliances were probably made there. Ditto your tv.
Again I think we have an obligation to look into these issues but it seems to me we should pressure more companies to do audits on their suppliers like Apple does. I think the audits are a good first step and I hope they keep it up.
It seems odd to blame the company that is doing the most to address the issue(in comparison to other companies).
The cheap labor will meet their doom with the next generation of Robotics that is coming and you'll will see the bulk of manufacturing be done in shifts by drones of robots and only small groups of engineers overseeing their work.
China's economy will see a huge recession because of it.
You couldn't be more wrong. When there are millions of people desperate for work and no legal restrictions on how they are used, automated manufacturing can't complete.
Think of it this way? In collapsing economies and despotic regimes, life is quite literally cheap. Under such circumstances, why would the 1% invest in expensive steel robots when flesh ones cost almost nothing? Flesh is the perfect machine - the companies that use it pay nothing for its reproduction, it's self repairing to some extent, and perfectly disposable. Under the right social circumstances, flesh robots are self-training, monitor each other for defects, and dispose of themselves automatically when they become obsolete.
A desperate human being with no rights, no protections, no legal recourse, who may be used with no regard for his or her welfare is already management's perfect wet dream of a robot, no steel, hydraulics, computerization, or electricity required.
IMO, being able to corral 3000 people into a dorm with the carrot of a job is nothing to crow about. That ex-Apple spokeswoman might want to rethink saying something like that.
Having said this, there's no question there are tremendous advantages to using Chinese shops for a variety of manufacturing jobs. I can get machining done faster and often better in China, not to mention more cheaply. There is a plethora of Chinese machine shops willing to take on one-off (or 5-offs) jobs. The next time around, they will automatically lower the price without being asked (because they have the fixtures already). Meanwhile, North American machine shops need a few more weeks to get the same jobs done, even though they don't have to ship the parts across the ocean. It's getting harder to be loyal to local suppliers.
Comments
The financial sector accounts for 40% of GDP, but they don't make anything but money. The housing bubble was just the latest symptom of a fake economy. Historically, the financial sector invested in productive enterprises, rather than creating financial instruments to invest in, and then the financial industry accounted for about 5% of GDP. Bring the fake financial sector back down to the historic 5% , and with control of health care costs, the GDP would properly reflect a real GDP of between 1/3 to 1/2 of current GDP.
You said a lot of soft, uninformed things in this post. But saying the financial sector accounts for 40% of GDP is a very hard and very wrong stat. Let's see where you got that number?
So Apple is a premium brand already sold at premium prices, even though competitive with other companies selling comparable product, yet you think Apple could produce everything in the US and still make the same profit because people are willing to pay for American produced goods at highly inflated costs? WHere is the evidence to support this? How much more are you willing to spend for Apple's products? it isn't about manufacturing in the US, but.. every...single... component... made all over the world that would have to be made in the US. As much as I love my iPhone I will not spend thousands of dollars just to get it stamped with Made in the USA. What about other countries? Do they care about their Apple products being made in the US? Are they willing to pay the price for a US made Apple products? What about other products that you want? Do you expect them to create everything within US borders? What about world trade? Is that no longer important? SHould the US have a closed door policy on goods? How would this help the nation with the highest GDP?
Take a breath! A waste of the terrible mind thing.
There is no LARGE group of U.S. workers that will work 6 days a week, be up at any time of the day, that would live in dormatories, that would be willing to give up family and social life to create iPhones.
There is no LARGE group of U.S. workers that have the mental flexibility to change plans and production at a moment's notice like the Chinese. If the job had to change suddenly, workers in the U.S. would complain. Chinese workers would say, yes sir and it will be done immediately.
Again, other than our illegal Mexican farmworker labor force, who can do this in the U.S.? No one.
Unfortunately, U.S. workers are use to having a lot of luxuries that Chinese workers don't even dream of. They wouldn't give up these luxuries to work like slaves.
If you really believe what you wrote then you have the mentality of a perfect slave.
Yes I do believe that some of the 1% are national treasures. I think Jobs was, Stephen Hawking is, as was Einstein, one could argue that Rockefeller Ford, and those who built the infrastructure of the 20th century were as well.
It takes too much energy for me to hate or envy any of these people.
To be clear this is not talking about the Bernie Madoffs of the world, they are criminals, and should be treated as such. Some of the historic 1%ers like Carniege, certainly have a mixed record, remember he single handedly was responsible for the creation of unions (wink wink).
Berners-Lee, Page, Brin, Zuckerberg, etc. are building the 21st century infrastructure, they are 1%ers should we hate them too? These people break a lot of eggs, but they sure do make a bunch of omelets. The jobs will come back to the US and developed countries when we evolve our social structures to figure it out, in the mean time the standard of living in other countries is rising, and that is a good thing.
Be happy to take this to another forum, just name it.
Yes I do believe that some of the 1% are national treasures. I think Jobs was, Stephen Hawking is, as was Einstein, one could argue that Rockefeller Ford, and those who built the infrastructure of the 20th century were as well.
It takes too much energy for me to hate or envy any of these people.
To be clear this is not talking about the Bernie Madoffs of the world, they are criminals, and should be treated as such. Some of the historic 1%ers like Carniege, certainly have a mixed record, remember he single handedly was responsible for the creation of unions (wink wink).
Berners-Lee, Page, Brin, Zuckerberg, etc. are building the 21st century infrastructure, they are 1%ers should we hate them too? These people break a lot of eggs, but they sure do make a bunch of omelets. The jobs will come back to the US and developed countries when we evolve our social structures to figure it out, in the mean time the standard of living in other countries is rising, and that is a good thing.
Be happy to take this to another forum, just name it.
No need to take this further, as long as you clearly realize that the top 1% according to affluence has nothing to do (or, isn't highly correlated) with the top 1% in regard to creativity, inventiveness, hard work and solid morals.
Further, this is to the several posters who suggested that outsourced jobs could not come back to the US due to some shortcoming of american workers, this is pure BS. If you put Americans under the same conditions that workers in Asia have, they would work just as disciplined, hard, and underpaid. Luckily Western societies have for the most part evolved to the degree where people do not need to work 12 hour shifts on a biscuit. And those that claim that Asian workers earn enough, stop comparing them to the rest of the starving population, that's just unfair. Compare them to what the middle class in the west can afford -- not only in terms of providing for one's family, but also in terms of ability to develop personal interests, travel, save for retirement, take good care of one's health...
Very political thread... the mixed-up picture didn't help...
There are so many variables to consider when discussing standards of living and keeping manufacturing jobs here.
Don't forget that when Apple manages to make a world-class product such as an iPad cheaply, millions of Americans buy it and benefit. Our standard of living goes up, even if it's not reflected in wages, per se.
Compare how someone in the middle class lived in the 1970s to 2012. Modern conveniences and all kinds of goods that increase our leisure time enjoyment.
Many of our poor are obese. Our GDP continues to increase, year after year, even after adjusting for inflation. Our consumerism drives innovation. It's a huge, virtuous circle.
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
Jobs is right. Those jobs that demand long hours - in addition to being monotonous and likely unfulfilling - are not the kind of jobs that are easy to fill here. They are not coming back.
"Be careful what you wish for" is appropriate for those wanting these jobs in the US because the state this country would have to be in in order to get these jobs to come to America is not something a sane American would want to deal with.
Our time was post WWII until the 1970s. We were hungry and had the mentality that hard work brought good things in life. We've lost that hunger and now it's someone else's turn to feed and get fat....like us.
Wow, that dinner looks like... like a disaster...
No need to clean the dishes. Just bring in the bulldozers!
My dear Mr. President, I am speechless.
This is a red pill/blue pill moment:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-apple-factory
We can face Mike Daisey's visit to Foxconn, or we can turn away.
The American press, AppleInsider included, has largely chosen to clap its collective hands over its myriad ears and sing "la la la la," but each of us can make our his or her own personal choice. It's analogous to the old saw about people who love sausage best avoiding its manufacture, with the exception that sausage, unlike our electronics, isn't made from human beings. (Though having said that, I'm recalling my high school reading of Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle.")
In that I really would like the world to be a better place for everyone and not just a cooler place for a few, I don't know what I'll do when the new iPad is released. I was planning on getting one, but I don't know if I'll be able to live with it or myself if I do.
Mike Daisy has invited us all to join him on a tour of the sausage factory. Personally, I don't know if I can go on smacking my lips over this tasty stuff, knowing what I know. I'm afraid that - all alone - I'm about to find out that I can. I imagine joining the March of the Fanbois on its way to occupy Cupertino, but we're not going to do that, are we? Are we going to do anything, anything at all?
Well, they're already packed in dorms but we call them public housing projects here don't we. Why not produce some work in order to get that check every month instead of sitting on the stoop watching the world go by.
While regurgitating neocon kant about the welfare state without consideration, analysis, or facts, you're also envying a culture that regards people as disposable cogs in the wheels of the powerful, to be used with consideration of their rights, dignity, or humanity.
And watch what you pray for - America is following in their footsteps. Increasingly, that which is produced by grim slave labor elsewhere is being sold by the same here. The difference between Foxconn and Walmart narrows every day.
In the voice of Foghorn Leghorn...
Da's a whole lotta' pontificatin' goin' on out dare...
China's economy will see a huge recession because of it.
I do not really get the problem. Aren't phone assembly lines supposed to be fully automated? Or do they still require manual labor? Do these 100000 Foxconn workers really use screwdrivers?
Yes, except where management has determined that forcing them to use their teeth will increase profits.
Here's everything you need to know, first hand, with no ranting:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-apple-factory
Rumors about the wonders of automated manufacturing are what corporations who outsource their labor to wrecked economies and despotic regimes circulate to help us assuage our collective guilt. The quick answer to your question is that anything manufactured in China is made entirely by hand under conditions that make American prisons look like exclusive resorts.
Robots are costly to build, difficult to maintain, and can't simply be thrown away the instant a problem occurs. Automated factories are very expensive, and exist only in places where it's not possible to treat human beings worse than robots. When human beings are literally a dime a dozen, have no rights, no legal recourse, and few choices, people are the robots.
Flexibility, speed, savings, jobs? perfection. Is that what this is about?
This is a red pill/blue pill moment:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...-apple-factory
We can face Mike Daisey's visit to Foxconn, or we can turn away.
The American press, AppleInsider included, has largely chosen to clap its collective hands over its myriad ears and sing "la la la la," but each of us can make our his or her own personal choice. It's analogous to the old saw about people who love sausage best avoiding its manufacture, with the exception that sausage, unlike our electronics, isn't made from human beings. (Though having said that, I'm recalling my high school reading of Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle.")
In that I really would like the world to be a better place for everyone and not just a cooler place for a few, I don't know what I'll do when the new iPad is released. I was planning on getting one, but I don't know if I'll be able to live with it or myself if I do.
Mike Daisy has invited us all to join him on a tour of the sausage factory. Personally, I don't know if I can go on smacking my lips over this tasty stuff, knowing what I know. I'm afraid that - all alone - I'm about to find out that I can. I imagine joining the March of the Fanbois on its way to occupy Cupertino, but we're not going to do that, are we? Are we going to do anything, anything at all?
I agree these issues should be looked at but it seems unfair to put the whole blame on Apple when they are the only company (that I know of) that is insisting on higher standards from the companies they do business with. If you're inclined to not buy an iPad for these reasons then you probably shouldn't look into the manufacturing of most of the items for sale in any store. You'll end up naked since there's a good chance you're clothes are made in china. Hungry too since you're kitchen appliances were probably made there. Ditto your tv.
Again I think we have an obligation to look into these issues but it seems to me we should pressure more companies to do audits on their suppliers like Apple does. I think the audits are a good first step and I hope they keep it up.
It seems odd to blame the company that is doing the most to address the issue(in comparison to other companies).
The cheap labor will meet their doom with the next generation of Robotics that is coming and you'll will see the bulk of manufacturing be done in shifts by drones of robots and only small groups of engineers overseeing their work.
China's economy will see a huge recession because of it.
You couldn't be more wrong. When there are millions of people desperate for work and no legal restrictions on how they are used, automated manufacturing can't complete.
Think of it this way? In collapsing economies and despotic regimes, life is quite literally cheap. Under such circumstances, why would the 1% invest in expensive steel robots when flesh ones cost almost nothing? Flesh is the perfect machine - the companies that use it pay nothing for its reproduction, it's self repairing to some extent, and perfectly disposable. Under the right social circumstances, flesh robots are self-training, monitor each other for defects, and dispose of themselves automatically when they become obsolete.
A desperate human being with no rights, no protections, no legal recourse, who may be used with no regard for his or her welfare is already management's perfect wet dream of a robot, no steel, hydraulics, computerization, or electricity required.
In the voice of Foghorn Leghorn...
Da's a whole lotta' pontificatin' goin' on out dare...
You need a very, very long spoon when you dine with the devil.
Having said this, there's no question there are tremendous advantages to using Chinese shops for a variety of manufacturing jobs. I can get machining done faster and often better in China, not to mention more cheaply. There is a plethora of Chinese machine shops willing to take on one-off (or 5-offs) jobs. The next time around, they will automatically lower the price without being asked (because they have the fixtures already). Meanwhile, North American machine shops need a few more weeks to get the same jobs done, even though they don't have to ship the parts across the ocean. It's getting harder to be loyal to local suppliers.