'Slacktivism' groups claim credit for Apple supplier audits after the fact

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Comments

  • melgrossmelgross Posts: 28,737member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    Not even close to most of. What kind of recognition did people receive? None. Only the group itself did. If you're going to make this claim where is all your information backing it up? It sounds like this is just some theory you made up to chastise the movement.



    People don't have to get public recognition. They just have to feel they did something, no matter how hypocritical it may be. If they can just sign their name instead of actually doing something that would inconvenience themselves, or cost them real money, they will, and so it means nothing.



    Meaning in an action directly relates to the amount of effort and cost it involves. No effort and cost, and it has no meaning.
  • island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    Not even close to most of. What kind of recognition did people receive? None. Only the group itself did. If you're going to make this claim where is all your information backing it up? It sounds like this is just some theory you made up to chastise the movement.



    Where the fuck is all of your information to say otherwise... huh... what's that... you don't have any. Oh boy.



    As far as who said that in another thread... for shit's sake, scooter... keep up. You laid some dumb ass drivel on that person for saying it.



    [anyone who thinks I'm being harsh with this member... well... just read my sig... that's the wonderful logic coming from this person. Basically, if you don't agree with this person then you aren't saying anything useful. ]
  • melgrossmelgross Posts: 28,737member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    So what? It's perfectly ok to lie and make up rumors about these so-called activists. Because, that is exactly what they do. They have no proof for their claims, they lie, distort and exaggerate in order to push their bogus, ignorant cause forward.



    They are the ones who should come with proof, and not the other way around.



    I believe they got the signatures. These web sites aren't committed to any of these causes they support. It's just another way to make money by giving people somewhere to go to "sign" a petition that has little meaning.
  • melgrossmelgross Posts: 28,737member, moderator
    What would mean something is if these sites required everyone who signed to pay, through Paypal, $25 or so to do so, and that the money collected would go into some fund for the purpose of doing something to alleviate the problems. Of course, to prevent fraud, it would need to go through some recognized organization.



    I'd be curious to see how many people signed if that were laid upon them.
  • island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    What would mean something is if these sites required everyone who signed to pay, through Paypal, $25 or so to do so, and that the money collected would go into some fund for the purpose of doing something to alleviate the problems. Of course, to prevent fraud, it would need to go through some recognized organization.



    I'd be curious to see how many people signed if that were laid upon them.



    Hear! Hear!



    +100
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 40,493member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    What would mean something is if these sites required everyone who signed to pay, through Paypal, $25 or so to do so, and that the money collected would go into some fund for the purpose of doing something to alleviate the problems. Of course, to prevent fraud, it would need to go through some recognized organization.



    I'd be curious to see how many people signed if that were laid upon them.



    Probably near the same number of people.



    Then they'd turn around and write it off their taxes as a 'charitable contribution'.
  • apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I believe they got the signatures. These web sites aren't committed to any of these causes they support. It's just another way to make money by giving people somewhere to go to "sign" a petition that has little meaning.



    Yes, they got a few ignorant people and Apple haters to sign their petition, but a petition is not proof of anything. Even if a million people sign something, that doesn't mean anything at all.



    I was wondering about where is their factual proof for their claims of worker abuse. I have not seen any evidence to back up their slanderous claims.
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


    You know, fuck them. I don't even care if they disingenuously take credit, if they can then feel self-satisfied/accomplished and shut the fuck up.



    I disagree. If the media gives these people the credit for this, it simply empowers them to continue with their silly petitions and press releases. Apple will continue to be hounded over its other (non-Foxconn) plants in China, its plants in Brazil, and so on. And other companies will have to deal with the same thing that Apple is dealing with.



    You don't give petty tyrants credit for something that they didn't do - or they'll simply want more.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Worker conditions in China are better now than they ever were. Salaries are going up sharply, vacation time has increased, as has sick day numbers, etc.



    I understand that Apple is being used as a whipping boy because of their current size, and because of their well known brand. But I have to wonder at the sincerity of those involved here in these organizations, and the writers who have been commenting on various web sites. After all, where were they several years ago when Apple was so much smaller, and HP, Dell, Samsung, Toshiba and others were having their equipment made there under much worse conditions? I don't remember anything stating these problems mentioning that they should help clean it up.



    It all seems very hypocritical. There is also just a limited amount that Apple can do without every other major company joining in. In addition, this should be the job of the Chinese government, not individual customers of manufacturers in China. If the government isn't that interested in doing something, why should they? The other problem is the consumer. Why should Apple, or any other company have to raise their prices to do this when that will cost them competitiveness when consumers want the cheapest product?



    Seriously, how many people here would be willing to pay another 10% in order to help Chinese workers? When it truly comes down to it, consumers won't want to do that. It's why in the past two years, manufacturers are moving to Vietnam so that they can bring their costs even lower.



    And what about WalMart? They are, by far, more responsible for poor working conditions in China as they continue to squeeze pennies out of their suppliers, and move more of their purchases out of this country? Why aren't they mentioned? This is all just some more politically correct garbage.



    Well said.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    What would mean something is if these sites required everyone who signed to pay, through Paypal, $25 or so to do so, and that the money collected would go into some fund for the purpose of doing something to alleviate the problems. Of course, to prevent fraud, it would need to go through some recognized organization.



    I'd be curious to see how many people signed if that were laid upon them.



    +1
  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    Change.org, in particular, seems utterly feckless, in the manner of modern web based social protest involving little more than twittering, passing along something on Facebook or visiting a website.



    I worry that there's a current generation of young people who grew up buying into the heady language of technological empowerment, and actually believe that if you make a big stir on the net you're doing something important and real. I've listened to some activist pitches that a made a really big deal about how decentralized and connected and web savvy they were, and read press releases that seemed to have been more crafted by a cynical old ad exec than bright young politically engaged person. At times it seems like the infrastructure is the entire point-- that by making "hyper-local" "micro-activist" "realtime" "distributed decision making" blah blah blah campaigns it didn't really matter what the cause was, because the approach was so awesome and modern and cool.



    I wonder if the start-up model, which is increasingly applied to social causes, isn't infecting the fundamental thinking in a dangerous way. You seem to get the worst of the tech industry-- the vacuous empowerment language, the perpetually in beta half-baked concepts, the over-promising and under-delivering, the slick public personas that don't actually signify anything more than clever designers-- applied to the important issues of the day, with predictably dreary results. Worse, this mindset imagines that a flurry of attention "solves the problem" and is prepared to take its good press and move on.



    Which would all be fine as long as it doesn't suck all the air out of the room and leave little energy for the hard work, attention to detail, and follow through required to even make a beginning. Ironically, what the online social networking activist world needs is an Apple-- someone who will rise above the pro forma platitudes of PR driven incumbents who actually can't be bothered to produce a truly superior product, and show the world how it's done.
  • astrubharastrubhar Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


    Where the fuck is all of your information to say otherwise... huh... what's that... you don't have any. Oh boy.



    You're the one making up these claims. Now you're saying I have to prove something you made up is wrong? That's ridiculous. Do you just think your opinion is automatically right unless proven otherwise?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


    [anyone who thinks I'm being harsh with this member... well... just read my sig... that's the wonderful logic coming from this person. Basically, if you don't agree with this person then you aren't saying anything useful. ]



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar


    I actually care about your opinion and you'd rather just prove me wrong than try to say anything useful.



    What that statement really meant was that you are trying to instigate an argument without contributing anything useful. You have no solutions to contribute. You just like telling other people they're wrong. You scrutinize every word and sentence just to find some obscure flaw and then you point it out. I don't agree with what these protesters are doing but you're still arguing with me. The fact that you set that as your signature only further proves it.



    I'm guessing most people that read it understand what I meant and it just makes you look bad when you criticize them and wont listen.
  • stan_timekstan_timek Posts: 17member
    Absolutely correct. Working conditions in China are better than in the past and the work (that Apple and almost every other company that does business there) provides said workers with a higher standard of living than they would have on the farm.



    Is this standard the same as here in the USA or other more developed country? No. But it is better for them and they WANT THE WORK. This is how capitalism works - the theme being spouted by these folks has failed everywhere else it has been tried in the world... grow up and get to work.
  • gtrgtr Posts: 3,179member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    Not even close to most of. What kind of recognition did people receive? None. Only the group itself did. If you're going to make this claim where is all your information backing it up? It sounds like this is just some theory you made up to chastise the movement.



    Slacktivists. What an utterly appropriate description for these type of people.



    I remember you, Astrubar.



    You're the silly, little girl who got your ass handed to you in this thread:



    http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=143216



    Went a little silent at the end, didn't you?



    So, have you given up using all your Apple gear until this horrible wrong has been righted?



    Do you intend to congratulate Apple on acting so quickly (as I advised you they would) or do you just save your comments for criticism only?



    What is the next great cause that you and rent-a-crowd will be attempting to tear down while attempting to boost your self-esteem?



    Will you actually be getting off your ass this time, or will a quick petition in between doing your hair and make-up be enough again?
  • island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    You're the one making up these claims. Now you're saying I have to prove something you made up is wrong? That's ridiculous. Do you just think your opinion is automatically right unless proven otherwise?



    Why not? You seem to think it works for you. Since you have no proof that I'm wrong then there a good possibility that I'm right. So, yes, you have to prove that I'm wrong. Why, are we supposed to take your word for it? What about my word? Oh, scooter, you gotta try harder.



    Quote:

    What that statement really meant was that you are trying to instigate an argument without contributing anything useful. You have no solutions to contribute. You just like telling other people they're wrong. You scrutinize every word and sentence just to find some obscure flaw and then you point it out. I don't agree with what these protesters are doing but you're still arguing with me. The fact that you set that as your signature only further proves it.



    I'm guessing most people that read it understand what I meant and it just makes you look bad when you criticize them and wont listen.



    Pot, kettle, sparky.



    Arguing with you?! Are you high? No, really. I mean it. I didn't respond to you in the first place. You responded to me. You were the one looking for an argument. Think about it, junior. Pull your head out of your ass.
  • fecklesstechguyfecklesstechguy Posts: 501member
    So they put together web petitions, generated a bunch of signatures and staged a wouldbe presentation event at the Grand Central Station Apple Store.



    Let's understand what is happening - they are trying to validate their approach to "activism" (you know I remember when that word actual held some weight). Grand Center Apple Store was used because it was easily accessible to the media - unlike the actual seat of control, 1 Infinite Loop, where they would be asked to leave the petition with the receptionist and ushered back out the door again.



    The right measure of a protest (or an actual revolution) is the net improvement the event or action creates in the situation that is being protested. A good example of this would be the civil rights protests of the 60s. They were effective in changing some (certainly not all) the environment under which people of color had to exist. To that extent, the protests were in fact effective. And the measure of that effectiveness also has to include changes in the status quo - not already in motion.



    This is where these folks fail. There was already movement by Apple to address the wrongs in China around working conditions - to claim that they pushed Apple to join and ask for an audit by the FLA is simply wrong.



    The problem is most of our social/activist groups have set the bar so low for effectiveness of protest (Hey! we were on TV/generated 10,000 tweets/got 5,000 likes in FB/covered by the NYT) that even the largely ineffectual OWS/OE (Occupy Everything) protests are proclaimed as being a success simply because the media covered it, the city law enforcement moved against it, etc.



    Passive responses do not make a protest successful, anymore than "standing up to be counted" makes them successful. Not a day goes by that doesn't see a group protesting something outside the State House, at a popular venue, a press release generated to announce the success of a protest because someone threw together a flash mob of like-minded people.
  • frankenfussfrankenfuss Posts: 5member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    I thought that the "change" part would be a pretty big clue.



    If you still can't figure it out, then I'm sorry, I can not help any further.



    I'm sure the RNC would love to give you a big ole bear hug today.
  • wovelwovel Posts: 953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


    I have realized from past exchanges that comprehension is not your strong suit.



    Please study the dictionary to discover the meaning of these words when placed together, "most of".



    I don't even care what you two are bickering about, using "most of" is ambiguous as it gets. People have differing beliefs about what that means. For some people it could men 95%, for others it could mean 51%. The best part is you provide no evidence at all for any number of people, not 1%, 51%, 99%.





    Having said that. These twits are claiming credit for something they clearly had nothing at all to do with. They claim victory so they can look effective and raise some money. It is despicable. If they were a true advocacy group they would simply applaud the effort. (or not).
  • astrubharastrubhar Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GTR View Post


    Went a little silent at the end, didn't you?



    I wanted to discuss it more but you wanted to keep all this "inside information" to yourself. What is the point? You didn't really care about discussing the issue. I proposed some pretty radical ideas but they were hypothetical situations because people were saying Apple has no leverage. Everyone thinks they're so smart for pointing that out. Not really. Plus Apple clearly has leverage and isn't afraid to use it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GTR View Post


    So, have you given up using all your Apple gear until this horrible wrong has been righted?



    No. I never said I wanted a solution overnight. Apple is doing a decent job but they need to try even harder. They haven't accomplished much.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GTR View Post


    What is the next great cause that you and rent-a-crowd will be attempting to tear down while attempting to boost your self-esteem?



    I hardly support these people, especially now. I don't think I accomplished anything. I'm not here praising myself. However, it did draw media attention and thats a whole lot more than you've accomplished.
  • island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wovel View Post


    I don't even care what you two are bickering about, using "most of" is ambiguous as it gets. People have differing beliefs about what that means. For some people it could men 95%, for others it could mean 51%. The best part is you provide no evidence at all for any number of people, not 1%, 51%, 99%.





    Having said that. These twits are claiming credit for something they clearly had nothing at all to do with. They claim victory so they can look effective and raise some money. It is despicable. If they were a true advocacy group they would simply applaud the effort. (or not).



    How about "most of" as in "not all". The other guy said "every single protester " which would be "all". So I don't really give a shit about percentages or being ambiguous. "Most of" does not mean "every single protester ".
  • astrubharastrubhar Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


    How about "most of" but "not all". The other guy said "every single protester " which would be "all". So I don't really give a shit about percentages or being ambiguous. "Most of" does not mean "every single protester ".



    It's still your opinion based on an arrogant view of protesters. The only clearly arrogant people are the petition creators.
  • island hermitisland hermit Posts: 6,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    It's still your opinion based on an arrogant view of protesters. The only clearly arrogant people are the petition creators.



    Well la ta da to you.
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