Mountain Lion focuses on Cocoa, drops X11 and deprecates Carbon Core

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Comments

  • mgsarchmgsarch Posts: 50member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post


    I do seem to remember that X11 was a security hole to OSX. Beside I've never known anyone who needed or used it. I sure didn't



    Please, don't tell us things you "seem to remember". Why waste our time with your misinformation?
  • mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 6,749member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post


    The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.



    Apple continues to screw the pro users and cater to consumerism. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.



    XQuartz has been the replacement for X11.app going on 3 years and running. If you use X windows on OS X then you know this.
  • mgsarchmgsarch Posts: 50member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    XQuartz has been the replacement for X11.app going on 3 years and running. If you use X windows on OS X then you know this.



    I never said X11.app. I said X11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System). Thanks though.
  • hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 11,865member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post


    The arrogance in this sort of assessment is just laughable. I use X11 every day. I'm a programmer.



    Apple continues to cater to consumerism while ignoring the wants of their pro users. This is not the last straw for me but this trend is becoming worrisome for people like me that have enjoyed using OS X as an alternative to a real development systems like .. linux.



    I am not the only developer that feels this way.



    I think Apple is just getting to a point where it realizes it doesn't have to manage things like X11 and Java. Those are best suited as downloads for people that need it.
  • maciekskontaktmaciekskontakt Posts: 203member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Oh no! Now people who have never used X11 will complain about not having X11 even though it's still installable and people that have old Carbon apps will complaint that it's Apple's fault that their 10 year old app won't work properly.



    Sure. Those who do not want commercial Photoshop may be using GIMP that is X11 application and very powerful alternative to basic Photoshop Elements. I do use it because it is free... and even though on other Mac (for design buisness) we have whole slew of licensed pro apps from Adobe and Quark I prefer something lightweight most of the time.







    There are few more.



    Thank God OpenOffice has moved to newer API few years ago so we do not need X11 for this one.
  • maciekskontaktmaciekskontakt Posts: 203member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I think Apple is just getting to a point where it realizes it doesn't have to manage things like X11 and Java. Those are best suited as downloads for people that need it.



    That is very true. They do not need to keep working on them. They just need to keep the doors open for them.



    First thing Idd when getting my MBA with Lion was to install Java. I may do the same with X11 with next system upgrade.
  • lightknightlightknight Posts: 2,247member
    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.



    I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.



    And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).



    Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.



    This is scary.
  • lightknightlightknight Posts: 2,247member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by maciekskontakt View Post


    That is very true. They do not need to keep working on them. They just need to keep the doors open for them.



    First thing Idd when getting my MBA with Lion was to install Java. I may do the same with X11 with next system upgrade.



    First, you'll have to tell ML you don't want to install "only signed binaries and AppStore purchases".
  • lightknightlightknight Posts: 2,247member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nagromme View Post


    I have old Carbon games I still like to play!



    And I also have an old Mac that plays them just great So I’ll hang on to a legacy machine, if legacy apps are important to me. While I’d love the “idea” of having every app I ever owned still run on a new machine I purchase in 2014, reality is that things move forward! And I reap the benefits when they do.



    (I hope—someday—that Classic/Rosetta/Carbon/etc. are possible and legal in some kind of emulator or 3rd-party environment, the way I can run Amiga apps on my Mac today.)



    Is there any way to run SL (or earlier) in a virtual machine well enough for gaming? I'd love to play Starcraft or Diablo 2 again...





    ----



    On a practical standpoint, I think that Apple should not "have" (politically speaking) to support X11 or anything else that's not directly related to their new machines. Their success proved that shedding old snakeskins is a good thing for computing. However, if they do so, they should make it easy for people to create the necessary software (emulation layers, for example). This is incompatible with Apple's current "let's go full AppStore" walled garden model, as I said earlier.
  • minicaptminicapt Posts: 219member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.



    ----



    Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.



    This is scary.



    1. I thought about what you wrote, but since I've read such comments back in the early 90s, I thought I'd pass on the following, "I still don't give a sh!t for your hurt feelings."



    2. Since you apparently have never searched for alternatives, allow me to offer you the following: http://www.fsf.org/



    3. Please don't whimper in public; it's unmanly. Buy an Android device and wait for Win8.



    Cheers
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,529member, moderator
    I don't think Carbon Core will affect the big apps like CS4, Shake, Quicktime Pro, Final Cut Pro 7 but we'll see. This is going to make it harder to figure out what apps are compatible though as you expect universal apps will just work and now it won't be the case.
  • slurpyslurpy Posts: 4,389member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.



    I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.



    And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).



    Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.



    This is scary.



    Cool story bro. Please use windows and spare us your concern-trolling whining of fictional and hypothetical situations. There's no justification to assume Apple will completely take away the ability to install any type of software in the future- that's just your imagination. Unlike you, I have read in depth about gatekeeper, what it is, and what it does, and based on this I support it as a default option, which will benefit most users. Any developer can request a key, there is no vetting involved. The system makes sure the code has not been maliciously modified by a 3rd party after it has been signed. If this is something you personally feel you don't want, turning it off forever takes a full 5 seconds and 2 clicks. As for your knock on the iPhone appstore, consumers have overwhelmingly voted with their money that they love this system, hence its unprecedented success. Android's app model has not seen NEAR the interest nor trust from both consumers and developers. Again, there's a ton of options out there. Stop pretending to speak for most people.
  • irnchrizirnchriz Posts: 1,382member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.



    I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.



    And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).



    Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.



    This is scary.



    The world moves on and look, there you are, sat in the corner with your tin foil hat on. Aww diddums.



    [insult removed].
  • mactelmactel Posts: 1,275member
    This is Apple's way of preparing OSX to merge with iOS. They are cleaning out the legacy in preparation for that (I'd say 2014 is when it will happen). X11 and Carbon apps have no place on iOS - at least from Apple.



    A clear sign of Apple's further attempts to merge the OSes will be when they discontinue the Power Mac. This is not an "if", but a "when". So that'll mean that FCP and all the other heavy apps that need lots of memory and raw CPU power will need beefy portable systems to take their place. I'd argue that current the MacBook Pro with an SSD drive would suffice. We'll see what Apple has in store in the coming months.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    This is scary.



    "What ifs" can help you think about unknowns in ways that can help you see the big picture but they can also get you trapped in the worst possible scenario. That's why you've done and it doesn't make for a well rounded discussion because it's irrational in and of itself.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 39,470member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone.



    So turn it off.



    Quote:

    And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be.



    Like fun. You're in the majority. You know how many OS X developers would up and quit*because of that, even if they were already IN the App Store?



    We're safe!



    Quote:

    Worse, it's the STANDARD setting!



    No, standard is "allow from anywhere, warn if not App Store".
  • asciiascii Posts: 5,363member
    People need to focus on what they are good at. Apple is good at innovating. They should focus on one platform that they can move forward. Standards-based platforms like Java and Xorg they don't own and don't have total freedom of innovation.



    People who use Xorg will be familiar with open source, and installing things manually, and it will be a minor inconvenience to make Xorg the first thing they install. It may even be better, as others have, because there is not 2 conflicting versions on the system, one well out of date. In the same way, I am glad Apple is moving to their own llvm-based complier, so that when I install MacPorts there are not two conflicting versions of gcc on the system.
  • sflocalsflocal Posts: 3,289member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I don't know if that is good or bad, but anyway I'm not getting ML.



    I can't tolerate to have a world where computer makers decide if I may, or not, install stuff on my machine as is the case on the iPhone. If Apple starts doing that, how long will it be before Microsoft and friends do it? Yeah right.



    I'm really scared that people go "oh, security is so much better like that, let's go walled garden as with the iPhone". Wake up call, this is computing. This is BAD. Yeah, Big Brother's seems a great world to live in. Secure and all. It's still BAD.



    And please people, don't go "it's optional". It's optional IN ML. Next release, it might not be. Worse, it's the STANDARD setting! I hope Apple changes their mind. If they don't, I'll have to go back to Microsoft when ML is standard on Apple machines (I dare not call them "computers"... if they're not anymore).



    Apple, think different? They're turning into a worse IBM than IBM ever was, a more controlling Google than Google ever was.



    This is scary.



    I knew whiners like this guy would start coming out of the woodwork. Apparently, it's too difficult to click a link and download a more current and better supported option.



    Flame Apple for supposedly taking choice away from the consumer. But wait, now let's also blame Apple when they delegate apps to 3rd parties that would most likely do a better job of supporting it.



    Can't win. Haters gonna hate, or spread FUD like this guy.
  • christophbchristophb Posts: 1,351member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mgsarch View Post


    I never said X11.app. I said X11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System). Thanks though.



    Time to make a new AI ID, eh?
  • tinman0tinman0 Posts: 168member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    Flame Apple for supposedly taking choice away from the consumer. But wait, now let's also blame Apple when they delegate apps to 3rd parties that would most likely do a better job of supporting it.



    Consumers don't use X11, nor do businesses for that matter. I'm struggling to think what app other than Gimp uses X11 and frankly the Gimp developers have had long enough to port it properly to the Mac.



    Apple are merely dropping stuff that most users don't need and don't care for.



    Whether people like it or not, the Mac is becoming main stream and Apple don't need to pander to the likes of Java, X11 or Carbon developers any more. Either build for the Mac and OSX properly, or don't.
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